When you find yourself heading into the ditch

[numbersixteen16]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

[nodrog]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

You should be able to grab a handful of front brake and stop in 2 metres. If that fails and you lowside, just climb up on the side of the bike and surf it along until it stops.

[sinfull]

What he said, but do a handstand !

[slofox]

Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

Tell ya what - you try that out an' let us all know what happens, eh?

But, seriously, you may well lose the front end real damn quick. And there's no saving it then.

[p.dath]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

This is all personal opinion.

No, having more weight over the front tyre will not alter how sharp you can turn if the lean angle and velocity remain constant. The wheel base will not shorten if you shift your weight over the front tyre (until the extreme happens and a wheel lifts off the ground). Think about it - how can the distance between your two axles change?

It's a very delicate balance you have to maintain if you decide to use the front brake in a corner *after* it has gone bad. So difficult that you'll be lucky if you find anyone recommend this approach. It is almost certain to lead to disaster.

Thre first issue is that the use of the front brake will cause the bike to stand up. This means you will loose your ability to turn. Almost certainly this will cause you to run off the road on its own.

But lets pretend that even with the front brake on, that you still have enough lean after the turning circle has been reduced. Yes you will transfer weight to the front wheel. Yes that will increase front wheel grip (this is assuming the front brake is not applied suddenly). However the rear wheel will now loose weight, and grip. And it will have considerable lateral force on it. So the back wheel is just as likely to step out.

Consider the exteme case. You apply to much front brake and the rear wheel comes off the ground. You are now riding a unicycle. Can you imagine trying to do hard cornering on a unicycle? It just wont work.


So what most people would suggest is you maintain an even throttle. Don't close it completely. This will maintain even weight (and hence grip) on both of your wheels. And then adopt the attitude to never give up. You have to look where you want the bike to end up, and simply turn harder. Your brain needs to believe you are going to make it.

[short-circuit]

This is all personal opinion.

No, having more weight over the front tyre will not alter how sharp you can turn if the lean angle and velocity remain constant. The wheel base will not shorten if you shift your weight over the front tyre (until the extreme happens and a wheel lifts off the ground). Think about it - how can the distance between your two axles change?

It's a very delicate balance you have to maintain if you decide to use the front brake in a corner *after* it has gone bad. So difficult that you'll be lucky if you find anyone recommend this approach. It is almost certain to lead to disaster.

Thre first issue is that the use of the front brake will cause the bike to stand up. This means you will loose your ability to turn. Almost certainly this will cause you to run off the road on its own.

But lets pretend that even with the front brake on, that you still have enough lean after the turning circle has been reduced. Yes you will transfer weight to the front wheel. Yes that will increase front wheel grip (this is assuming the front brake is not applied suddenly). However the rear wheel will now loose weight, and grip. And it will have considerable lateral force on it. So the back wheel is just as likely to step out.

Consider the exteme case. You apply to much front brake and the rear wheel comes off the ground. You are now riding a unicycle. Can you imagine trying to do hard cornering on a unicycle? It just wont work.


So what most people would suggest is you maintain an even throttle. Don't cose it completely. This will maintain even weight (and hence grip) on both of your wheels. And then adopt the attitude to never give up. You have to look where you want the bike to end up, and simply turn harder. Your brain needs to believe you are going to make it.

Are you related to DangerousBastard?

[G4L4XY]

Just do a stoppie around the corner :Punk:

[BoristheBiter]

I chose the ditch.

[bogan]

No, having more weight over the front tyre will not alter how sharp you can turn if the lean angle and velocity remain constant. The wheel base will not shorten if you shift your weight over the front tyre (until the extreme happens and a wheel lifts off the ground). Think about it - how can the distance between your two axles change?

Cos the front one goes up at an angle, it gets closer to the rear.

But, and its a big one, you need to have some grip in reserve to do that, and if you have grip in reserve (as you should always have on the road), just push the inside bar and tighten the line.

Having the front loaded up will cause it to turn in sharper, but more due to the change in rake than wheelbase. But since you've already turned in and hit the fear barrier, bad time for a weight change! Simplest solution is best, running wide? turn tighter.

[SPP]

OP: That is what CSS call a hook turn. As the front compresses the wheelbase is shortened and the result is a tighter arc.

However, abruptly transferring weight to the front (like rolling off the throttle or dabbing the front brakes) actually stands the bike up and sends you wide... try it, that's exactly what happens.

Some say to lightly apply the rear brake. The reasoning being that lightly applying the rear brake slows you down but 1) doesn't transfer the weight forward as abruptly as the front brake 2) lengthens the wheelbase because of the 'flattening' swing arm. Longer wheelbase equals increased stability. I'd be careful with this though, the last thing you want to do is lock the rear.

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[slofox]

If you really need to lose speed in a corner, you can always use the BACK brake - carefully - while keeping the throttle open far enough to keep positive drive on the back wheel. There's a kinda balance point between the two that will allow you to lose speed (quite quickly if you get it right) without locking up the back. I've used this technique often enough over the past 44 years to be happy doing it. Course it's more betterer not to have to lose speed in the corner in the first place...

[Ender EnZed]

I chose the ditch.

So did I. It was muddy.

[SPP]

If you really need to lose speed in a corner, you can always use the BACK brake - carefully - while keeping the throttle open far enough to keep positive drive on the back wheel. There's a kinda balance point between the two that will allow you to lose speed (quite quickly if you get it right) without locking up the back. I've used this technique often enough over the past 44 years to be happy doing it. Course it's more betterer not to have to lose speed in the corner in the first place...

cool, pretty advanced technique though eh?

[Str8 Jacket]

I'd probably just seize the engine before I got to the ditch....

[slofox]

cool, pretty advanced technique though eh?

Well...actually I learned it all by myself - I don't even remember how now - on my first ever bike - a 1953 Ariel 350cc single. I was in Christchurch and regularly rode the Port Hills Summit Road. Somehow I discovered that technique and have used it ever since.

Like I said though - better to have your speed right before the corner...:facepalm:

[steve_t]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

Are you going along to NASS or SASS or whatever?
Braking should always be done progressively - this is something to practice. Countersteering will help you turn sharper - this is something to practice. I'd recommend further training :scooter:

[Nzpure]

I have not tried this in a corner that i thought i was going off the road, but twist of the wrist states roll the throttle on more and counter steer that bitch so your elbows down and you'll get there (slightly exageratted) but rolling on the throttle (if its not already wide open) will apply down force on the rear tyre (and the front apparently??) increasing the grip area allowing more lean and just hold on for dear life.

[sinfull]

Slow down and there won't be a problem young fella !

[bogan]

So did I. It was muddy.

Was it ever!

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[BoristheBiter]

So did I. It was muddy.

aren't they all.

[darkwolf]

First - look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go.

Second - if you are turning but pushing wide: Get down, low and to the inside of the bike, push the inside bar forward. This should help steer the bike around the corner.
or stand the bike up, brake smoothly, progressively and aggressively, then, importantly, turn back in at the (hopefully) reduced speed and around the corner

Third - learn from your mistakes, slow down, and get some skills training.

As has already been discussed, don't grab the brakes mid corner. You are more likely to cause the bike to become unstable and panic - but if you must, stand the bike up before hitting the picks.

I can't remember where I heard it but if you are absolutely sure you are going to crash, the best thing you can do it at least try to avoid it. The worst case scenario is that you crash - which you were already sure you were going to do any way.

[p.dath]

I have not tried this in a corner that i thought i was going off the road, but twist of the wrist states roll the throttle on more and counter steer that bitch so your elbows down and you'll get there (slightly exageratted) but rolling on the throttle (if its not already wide open) will apply down force on the rear tyre (and the front apparently??) increasing the grip area allowing more lean and just hold on for dear life.

Twist of the writst is talking about what to do if you loose traction (with regard to throttle), as opposed to going into a corner too hot.

[p.dath]

Having the front loaded up will cause it to turn in sharper, but more due to the change in rake than wheelbase. But since you've already turned in and hit the fear barrier, bad time for a weight change! Simplest solution is best, running wide? turn tighter.

A reduction in trail will allow for a faster turn in - at the expense of stability. It might be a suitable technqiue for use at the track when you plan to use it, rather than part way through a road corner after deciding you've over cooked it. :)

[skinman]

I would not grab the front brake if I thought I was too hot in a corner, it has the effect in my experiance of standing the bike up or causing a front end push, neither will help getting around a corner. if I am too fast in, reduce throttle & apply rear brake, drop shoulder in & wait, ignore massive peg grind then apply throttle to get the bike to stand back up to exit & also get everything stable again as cruisers do not like to be pushed through a corner like that and will shimmy & bounce until you get drive on.
Much better to go slow in, fast out.

[nodrog]

1. dont listen to Internet riding advice.

2. dont try and learn to ride soley from watching videos and reading books, its abit fuckin hard to "refer to chapter 12" as you are Ruben Xausing it into an oncoming mr whippy truck.

[sinfull]

mr whippy truck.

Sprinkles ......

[nodrog]

Sprinkles ......

you might flake out

[sinfull]

you might flake out
Only do that after too many cones

[willytheekid]

Slow down and there won't be a problem young fella !


1. dont listen to Internet riding advice.

2. dont try and learn to ride soley from watching videos and reading books, its abit fuckin hard to "refer to chapter 12" as you are Ruben Xausing it into an oncoming mr whippy truck.

+1
Best advice posted so far :yes:

ALWAYS ride to your own ability, the bikes and the conditions :niceone:

Books and vids only teach the "theory" of riding...a good riding instructor will not only teach you the theory, but put it all into practice.
Go to rider training! (then advanced rider training) its lots of fun and VERY addictive, But most importantly...the skills learnt will make you a safer rider and ensure you have many years of riding ahead of you. (And may save your life one day)

Everything else will come with experiance and time spent in the saddle :yes:

Ride safe KBers :love:

("its abit fuckin hard to "refer to chapter 12" as you are Ruben Xausing it into an oncoming mr whippy truck"...:laugh: classic!)

[nodrog]

Only do that after too many cones

"too many" you mean hundreds and Thousands?

[Zedder]

Now, you are talking about road cones aren't you?

[sinfull]

"too many" you mean hundreds and Thousands?

Only do that on sundaes

[Str8 Jacket]

Only do that on sundaes

All sounds a bit choc-dipped to me.

[nodrog]

This thread has gone down a Rocky Road.

[Zedder]

Yeah, but someone will trumpet.

[unstuck]

Tip top thread this one.:yes:

[gatch]

If you cock up mid turn and get on the brakes, instead of sliding or rolling, you may end up "highsiding" and coming down in a nasty broken heap.

Chances are you are better off aiming for the ditch and looking for the softest place to take a lie down.

[sinfull]

the softest place to take a lie down. Just dont freeze !

[Zedder]

Icy where this thread is going.

[jrandom]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second...

No point reading about it on the internet.

You need to train yourself to ride your bike within the full extent of its handling envelope. When a situation presents itself, you'll react instinctively.

The only really useful place to train those reflexes and learn about the physics of your machine's performance is at trackdays.

Go do some. It might save your life.

[Swoop]

Another thread full of smarties.

Surely DB should be joining in with all his experience...

[george formby]

If you really need to lose speed in a corner, you can always use the BACK brake - carefully - while keeping the throttle open far enough to keep positive drive on the back wheel. There's a kinda balance point between the two that will allow you to lose speed (quite quickly if you get it right) without locking up the back. I've used this technique often enough over the past 44 years to be happy doing it. Course it's more betterer not to have to lose speed in the corner in the first place...

Yup, the bike maintains the same attitude in the turn, I do this on steep downhill gravel corners to avoid loading up the front. You can balance the front & back brake in a corner but you need to have the presence of mind to counter or counter,counter steer to negate the turn in when you brake & put the bike where you want it, tighter or wider through the turn. When you practice it the bike will always tighten it's radius unless you compensate.

Personally, in a ditch or turn situation I prefer to rely on tire technology & ground clearance to get me through. The bike has far more ability than me.

[jrandom]

Most top level racers are not super human as far as reflexes go. The difference being they have practiced enough, that their reflex actions are more often than not, the right thing to do.

True dat.

If you closely watch helmet-cam videos of top level racers...

... here's Dan Stauffer winning at Paeroa, btw, watch before proceeding:

6iq0nxVWQj4

... you'll note that the control inputs aren't actually happening ridiculously quickly. It's not like playing hemidemisemiquavers on a piano. It's just a calmly executed and nicely timed sequence of inputs that can be precisely repeated each lap.

Of course, the instinctive understanding of the exact magnitude and timing of those inputs (including things like body position) is where the expertise comes in.

That's what you can only develop on a racetrack.

And, if you do a lot of road riding, it will, at some point, save your life.

(I know I belabour the point, but it's true.)

[george formby]

True dat.

If you closely watch helmet-cam videos of top level racers...

... here's Dan Stauffer winning at Paeroa, btw, watch before proceeding:

6iq0nxVWQj4

... you'll note that the control inputs aren't actually happening ridiculously quickly. It's not like playing hemidemisemiquavers on a piano. It's just a calmly executed and nicely timed sequence of inputs that can be precisely repeated each lap.

Of course, the instinctive understanding of the exact magnitude and timing of those inputs (including things like body position) is where the expertise comes in.

That's what you can only develop on a racetrack.

And, if you do a lot of road riding, it will, at some point, save your life.

(I know I belabour the point, but it's true.)

Practice, practice, practice. Now that my gf is on the road, every time we go out we spend 10 or 20 minutes practicing the different exercises we have been taught. Braking, braking in a corner, tight turns, evasion etc. It's lifted my game immensely I'm happy to say.

[Stirts]

Another thread full of smarties.

An arse full infact!

262276

[sinfull]

[QUOTE=Stirts;1130305964]An arse full infact!

All i see is an arrow !

[nadroj]

I bet you like the brown smartie's!

[300weatherby]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

Ignore your ditch. look where you want to go, get on the gas and lead with your chin.........

[GSF]

All sounds a bit choc-dipped to me.

Agreed, sounds like trying to sugar-coat it I reckon.

[buellbabe]

Find yourself heading towards a certain crash???

No such thing. That sounds like " oh well it looks like its pre-destined thing that I'm gonna land in the ditch so I might as well give up".

Never say die!

If you have gone into the corner too hot just look where ya wanna go and lean the bike over MORE.

The bike is FULLY capable of getting around the corner, YOU are the only thing holding it back.

Good Luck!


Like its already been said, ideally you wanna be in the right gear and hitting the right speed before you enter the corner LOL.
But that said, sometimes shit happens and I can personally testify to that hahahahaha

[numbersixteen16]

Ignore your ditch. look where you want to go, get on the gas and lead with your chin.........

Underdstood, and usually you are focused on the apex. However after riding fatigue comes into it, you might find you loose concentration and bad habits start to show.

[CHOPPA]

If you find yourself in that position. You would do best to disregard 90% of the information you have just read

[Fast Eddie]

If you find yourself in that position. You would do best to disregard 90% 99% of the information you have just read

haha recon

[FJRider]

An arse full infact!

Don't eat the brown one's ... :lol:

[mossy1200]

Dont stress the council has re-alighned that corner now. Its just a succession of no corners now.

[Andy67]

Find yourself heading towards a certain crash???

No such thing. That sounds like " oh well it looks like its pre-destined thing that I'm gonna land in the ditch so I might as well give up".

Never say die!

If you have gone into the corner too hot just look where ya wanna go and lean the bike over MORE.

The bike is FULLY capable of getting around the corner, YOU are the only thing holding it back.

Good Luck!




I reckon the quality of contributions has taken a big step back, but not this post or 1 or 2 others.

I am an average biker for sure and would like to share a scenario where this happened to me.

Coming back from Coro I stopped at the kaiua fish and chip shop. I love that place, best ever. Ran into a bloke who had a K1300R, obviously a man of taste. We set a good but legal pace up the coast and it wasn't long before we were up behind traffic.

Short straight, quick squirt and past...my new mate scared a turkey out of the ditch and it was on track to take my head off. :baby:

I ducked and missed the little brown missile...:cool: decelerating through the nano second ths all took place. You can possibly imagine my surprise when i popped up heading into a tight 55k lefty at a good clip. I shat myself and I don't do that easily. I was in deep had crossed the centre line, stopping was not an option so i went around, way hot. A good number of lessons all here, all replaying instantly. I don't ride like this and yet. Got out fine. Why?

Right position on te road, safety margin and used that all, time on the bike, who knows?

I haven't had any track based training because I thought it taught at 10/10ths and that's not what I wanted to apply to my road riding. Why would I need that ? sure wish I had track training when that corner corner came up.

[sugilite]

Ignore your ditch. look where you want to go, get on the gas and lead with your chin.........

Pretty much the best advice here. I'd just add that the gas is often, but not always the answer.

To the OP.
In that type of do or die situation there is no time to think, only DO. How much can you load a front end up? that all depends on all the usual variables, speed, road condition, camber, tyre and suspension condition. Roll that lot into one, and call it "feel". Ride heaps, do track days get as much experience as you can and it all helps you build up this "feel" database. Oh and have fun doing it :yes:

[Andy67]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

By coincidence I was sent this:

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH_QiXw5n4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Cheers Andy

[Maki]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

Everyone? I have been riding bikes, push bikes and motorcycles for more than 30 years and I have NEVER EVER found myself facing a certain crash. If you want to crash, then look at what you think you are going to hit and tap the front brake. You will hit the thing you think you will hit EVERY SINGLE time. If you don't want to crash, then keep your hands off the brake, look were you want to go and control the bike with counter steering. Gently rolling on the throttle will tend to be helpful. Chopping the throttle suddenly may lead to disaster.

Have fun, and don't ever assume you are going to crash.

[BoristheBiter]

Everyone? I have been riding bikes, push bikes and motorcycles for more than 30 years and I have NEVER EVER found myself facing a certain crash. If you want to crash, then look at what you think you are going to hit and tap the front brake. You will hit the thing you think you will hit EVERY SINGLE time. If you don't want to crash, then keep your hands off the brake, look were you want to go and control the bike with counter steering. Gently rolling on the throttle will tend to be helpful. Chopping the throttle suddenly may lead to disaster.

Have fun, and don't ever assume you are going to crash.

So you have never crashed then? on any bike?

[Maki]

So you have never crashed then? on any bike?

Now, to be 100% honest I have. When I was 6 or 7 years old my parents got a Chopper bike for me. My father put me on it, took me to the top of a hill and let me go down. I crashed at the bottom of the hill but I don't remember having any thoughts about facing a certain crash before it happened. (That was the first time I ever rode that particular bike) I just crashed, got a bloody lip, scared the shit out of my father and that was that.

Have I ever crashed a motorcycle? No, but I have laid down my bikes twice in my own driveway while perfectly stationary... Hey, no one is perfect... Some people go through life and never even drop a bike...

[actungbaby]

Everyone at some point must have found themselves facing a certain crash only to just come out of it at the last second.

Ive recently been taught that if theres more weight over the front, it means you will turn a sharper line with the same lean angle (due to shortening your wheel base). So if you were heading off the road, and already in a turn. Would tapping the front brakes quickly throw weight forward and aid you turning in or would you just loose front end stability?

I surpose if meant stayiong on the raod it be worth a shoot you whouldint want to do to sudden movemnt though
or you might unload the front end

I tryed this on my c90 step thru moved back on the seat mid corner i fell of hehe

[actungbaby]

Now, to be 100% honest I have. When I was 6 or 7 years old my parents got a Chopper bike for me. My father put me on it, took me to the top of a hill and let me go down. I crashed at the bottom of the hill but I don't remember having any thoughts about facing a certain crash before it happened. (That was the first time I ever rode that particular bike) I just crashed, got a bloody lip, scared the shit out of my father and that was that.

Have I ever crashed a motorcycle? No, but I have laid down my bikes twice in my own driveway while perfectly stationary... Hey, no one is perfect... Some people go through life and never even drop a bike...

I had the same bike well didnt steal yours (so dont want here oh was you u $#@# i went of handle bars after biking down

Steep hill lower hutt and standing on pedals the bike jumped out second dam bike used to do that got 2 scaraped

up knees actually i never grazed myself like that falling of motorbike . hurt alot i was like that age

[Ocean1]

Ignore your ditch. look where you want to go, get on the gas and lead with your chin.........

:yes:

The bike will do it's job mate, if you want to go with it then leave the fucking brake alone, crack the throttle and push on that inside bar.

Fear is the mind-killer...

[BoristheBiter]

Now, to be 100% honest I have. When I was 6 or 7 years old my parents got a Chopper bike for me. My father put me on it, took me to the top of a hill and let me go down. I crashed at the bottom of the hill but I don't remember having any thoughts about facing a certain crash before it happened. (That was the first time I ever rode that particular bike) I just crashed, got a bloody lip, scared the shit out of my father and that was that.

Have I ever crashed a motorcycle? No, but I have laid down my bikes twice in my own driveway while perfectly stationary... Hey, no one is perfect... Some people go through life and never even drop a bike...

So you crashed because you wanted to right?

I guess coming from dirt to road I just take the good with the bad. yes the first time was "what the fuck just happened" and it did take me awhile to get over that one the second was "meh I fucked up" I got over it.

I think that just puts me in the shit happens camp.

[scracha]

Find yourself heading towards a certain crash???

No such thing.


Bollocks. Whilst many riders give up waaaaay too early, there is a certain point where you should face reality, abandon all hope and start trying to scrub off as much speed as possible, aim for a soft landing and pick a point to kick yourself of the bike and put as much distance between yourself and 200ish Kg of flying metal as is possible.

[CookMySock]

A reduction in trail will allow for a faster turn in - at the expense of stability. It might be a suitable technqiue for use at the track when you plan to use it, rather than part way through a road corner after deciding you've over cooked it. :)Ah yup, not too good with a front-heavy bike with steep geometry and cheap suspension either! You will get a wicked twitch out of it at the very least.

I think you are universally better off to ratchet balls up one notch, conserve your angle of lean, trail on the power gently, don't touch the brakes, and roll 'er gently into the corner with the bars. Empty pants coming out, and chalk it up to experience. :no:

[R-Soul]

Twist of the writst is talking about what to do if you lose traction (with regard to throttle), as opposed to going into a corner too hot.

The same principles apply. The most traction you can get from a bike is when your weight is slightly on your back wheel, when you have a small amount of throttle on. Thats why your back wheel is bigger than your front wheel. So go around the corner with weight slightly on teh back wheel from a small amount of throttle ( if not going in waty too hot - for that, see below)
In a corner, your front wheel is providing sideways friction, pushing against the centripetal acceleration acting on your bike's mass (and yours) to push it off the outside of the corner. But there is only so much friction that can be used, before the tyre breaks away. By grabbing a bunch of brakes mid corner (when there is friction sideways), you are also adding a friction force in the forward direction. The net result of these two frictions forces can be summed as a vector (i.e. so not just a simple summation - but a summation nonetheless). So adding brakes to the turn can mean that the front tyre breaks away quicker because its adding additional friction.


To get the most traction you can, get your body as over to the inside as possible. This keeps the bike as upright as possible in the bend, so that the bike suspension is working closer to it's optimum design angle (i.e. upright). The better your suspension works, the less your bike will tend to drift wide, as there is more traction with less effect of teh wheel "skittering" (kind of like microjumping due to bad suspension action) across the road.

Also get your torso as low as possible to the side of the tank. Picture your bike from the front. Now think of the centripetal acceleration in a corner as a big torque wrench attached to the contact patch of your wheel on the ground, and pushing the bike and you over (around the contact patch) towards the outside of the corner. If your body mass is high on the bike, the torque wrench arm is bigger, and pushes you over with more torque. If you get lower on the bike, this reduces the torque arm acting on you and the bike, and has less effect on you and the bike, meaing that you can resist that acceleration and turn easier.

Also- countersteering: Everybody knows that countersteering is good. BUT: what is the best position in which to be able to provide the most (and most controlled) force on the inside bar? As any martial artist, windsurfer, or cricket batsman will tell you, you have the most (coontrolled) power when you are doing stuff in front of your centreline, and when you are comfortable and balanced. So move your body until the inside handle is in front of your centreline.

Lastly - and thanks Graham for this: When you go into a corner WAY to hot, and there is no possiblilty for rollling throttle on, then do this: Roll off throttle GENTLY. Sudden roll off will transfer weight to the front tyre suddenly, which is already struggling with too much friction to handle, and will make the front tyre break away. So roll off gently, get into a good position as per the above, and turn in with faith without throttle. There is a certain amount of energy that a tyre absorbs as it goes into a tight turn, as the road surface causes the tyre to deform and compress. Graham calls it "treadwalking" as the treads step over each other out of line. By turning in hard, the treadwalking or deformation of the tyre under high stress in itself uses up a lot of energy, and causes the bike to slow quite quickly.

If you still dont fancy your chances, then if you are going to brake, stand the bike up first, brake freaking hard, and then turn again. Just be damn careful of oncoming traffic if you move out of your lane in a left corner.

[pritch]

This is all personal opinion.

Think about it - how can the distance between your two axles change?



Got that far didn't read any more. I hope it got better.

Was just listening to MotoPod today and Colin Edwards was quoted as describing trail braking and how that puts weight on the front, shortens the wheelbase, and sharpens the turn.

He also said only an idiot would do that on the road.

'Course I've also heard that the aliens don't trail brake any more, they're either hard on the gas or hard on the brakes. No mucking about.

[BoristheBiter]

'Course I've also heard that the aliens don't trail brake any more, they're either hard on the gas or hard on the brakes. No mucking about.

Isn't that called the Andrew Stroud technique.

[Maki]

Was just listening to MotoPod today and Colin Edwards was quoted as describing trail braking and how that puts weight on the front, shortens the wheelbase, and sharpens the turn.

He also said only an idiot would do that on the road.


+1

%^&$**$^##

[darkwolf]

I'm open to correction but I assume when braking your suspension will compress. Depending on the rake of your forks this means the gap between your front wheel contact patch and your rear contact patch will technically come closer together. Whether this actually has an effect on your turn I wouldn't have the fogiest idea.

I see in the Twist book, they describe that the rear wheel effectively pivots around the front tyre in a corner (or at least that's how I read it). In that sense then, lightening the rear wheel and increasing load could increase the ability of the rear tyre to pivot. Of course the trade off is that the rear is more willing to overtake the front or cause the bike to lean over more. So it must be a VERY delicate balancing act.

[Brett]

Don't know about grabbing a handful of front mid-corner...sounds like trouble to me...instant ditch finder and bone breaker. I have however found that very gentle/progressive use of the rear brake can help tighten the line up a little. Best to focus on being smooth with clean lines...prevent those ditch fixating moments.

Edit: agree Maki's comment...only an idiot would consider trail braking on the road...shouldn't really be riding that quickly that you would need to!

In my experience, including riding into a few ditches as a new rider on my 250, 90% of road riding crashes with a single rider can be avoided by:
1) Riding at a speed equivalent to my skill level
2) instead of shitting bricks, target fixating and standing the bike up while trying to brake hard, lean and look into the corner where you want to go and focus on the line you want to take outta there. As has been said many times on these forums...your tyres can grip a lot better than you think they can - provided you haven't locked them up with a fist and toe full of brakes.
3) Riding with my eyes at the appropriate place in the road - ie not right in front of you, but watching the exit of the corner, looking where you want to go.

[EJK]

TAG: Thread of geniuses