Is it Bucket legal or not?

[sidwyz]

Most of us are familar with the rules, for those that aren't,

http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Chapter_24_Road_Racing_Miniature.pdf

MNZ have been/are of NO use to detirmine what is legal or not.

Lets collectivly sort this out!
We (the racers) are the ones policing the rules so we all should make it clear.

F5 is a great class just lacking no.s!!

There are very few donor engines available and those that are, are getting old and hard to find.
eg, RG50, Cb100, sl100 ect.

The only engine at the moment becoming very available is the XR100 or CRF100. but fall into the usual grey area.

My opinion is they are legal!!
What do you all think?

Also opinions on the CRF150f (2 valve aircooled, very similar to GL145)as legal or not.
Not the CRF150r which is the watercooled 4 valve motocross bike, that is clearly ILLEGAL.

Dont forget to vote on the poll.

[Rick 52]

Most of us are familar with the rules, for those that aren't,

http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Chapter_24_Road_Racing_Miniature.pdf

MNZ have been/are of NO use to detirmine what is legal or not.

Lets collectivly sort this out!
We (the racers) are the ones policing the rules so we all should make it clear.

F5 is a great class just lacking no.s!!

There are very few donor engines available and those that are, are getting old and hard to find.
eg, RG50, Cb100, sl100 ect.

The only engine at the moment becoming very available is the XR100 or CRF100. but fall into the usual grey area.

My opinion is they are legal!!
What do you all think?

Also opinions on the CRF150f (2 valve aircooled, very similar to GL145)as legal or not.
Not the CRF150r which is the watercooled 4 valve motocross bike, that is clearly ILLEGAL.

Dont forget to vote on the poll.

We have a XL100 1978 and it is the same as a XR100 and the XR is not a competion engine so is legal ....Isn't it ??

[Rick 52]

We have a XL100 1978 and it is the same as a XR100 and the XR is not a competion engine so is legal ....Isn't it ??

Hhahaha Brilliant !! I have just pressed the wrong button ..Sorry guys .

[Yow Ling]

I think you should post pictures of whatever you are talking about, apart from a xl100 I dont know what any of them look like.
Hell they could be real styley things or even be painted in colours that would influence our decision.
If you were serious you would be looking for a minerali AM6 or a Euro4 derbi 50

[Henk]

I think you should post pictures of whatever you are talking about, apart from a xl100 I dont know what any of them look like.
Hell they could be real styley things or even be painted in colours that would influence our decision.
If you were serious you would be looking for a minerali AM6 or a Euro4 derbi 50

The reason people are playing with 100cc diesels up here at the moment is availability and ease as much as anything else, same reasons as the proliferation of FXRs really.
Sunday there were a bunch of us scrapping it out for second place and having a great time while Nathaniel raced around on his own and lapped the whole field on the derbi.
Young Mr Diprose raked in the points but the rest of us probably had more fun beating each other up for second place.

[kel]

Legal, along with all its after market add on goodies to take it up to 19hp
262251

Illegal
262252

Dont shoot the messenger, I didnt write the rules

[mossy1200]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=464623963

???????? Lazy 150 motor chinese. Its not mx . Is it enduro and if so why isnt a xl

[Yow Ling]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=464623963

???????? Lazy 150 motor chinese. Its not mx . Is it enduro and if so why isnt a xl

XL has a headlight

[Timber020]

What about postie bike/ct110 engines? I know they are 105cc (a hair over 100cc) and 4 speed. But Newmanz offers a 107cc loncin copy thats 7hp for $399. or are they unsuitable? (you can crash start them to just in case anyones wondering about the autoclutch)

[mossy1200]

XL has a headlight

Is that the only reason? Why does that matter because it needs to be removed to race. Loncin website lists the 150cc as a dirt bike engine and also a gocart engine.

[Yow Ling]

Is that the only reason? Why does that matter because it needs to be removed to race. Loncin website lists the 150cc as a dirt bike engine and also a gocart engine.

Seeing as it is a go kart engine it is specifically excluded, dirt bike is a little more vague as there are some that are within the rules

[mossy1200]

Seeing as it is a go kart engine it is specifically excluded, dirt bike is a little more vague as there are some that are within the rules

LONCIN motor is listed as a gocart motor. Isnt that what everyone is using?

CMG doesnt have alot of info but if people allow xr100 motor based on it being the same as xl100 I cant see the difference. The CMG is a air cooled motor with non comp gearbox. Its just to hard to see where the line is drawn.

[Yow Ling]

What about postie bike/ct110 engines? I know they are 105cc (a hair over 100cc) and 4 speed. But Newmanz offers a 107cc loncin copy thats 7hp for $399. or are they unsuitable? (you can crash start them to just in case anyones wondering about the autoclutch)

MINIATURE ROAD RACING
Championship Classes
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
Effective 1st January 2012
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled
Sidecars shall have one engine capacity class:
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc - 53cc
4 stroke 0-100cc - 104cc

Seeing as 105 and 107 cc are bigger than 104 they are are not eligible for F5 they ok for f4 though, otherwise why not run 125 watercooled 2t's and 160 diesels. you cant just have something because it only cheats a little bit.

[Yow Ling]

LONCIN motor is listed as a gocart motor. Isnt that what everyone is using?

CMG doesnt have alot of info but if people allow xr100 motor based on it being the same as xl100 I cant see the difference. The CMG is a air cooled motor with non comp gearbox. Its just to hard to see where the line is drawn.

Everyone is using FXR motor, I cant understand why you want to run at the back, and spend as much money as somebody nearer the front.

[koba]

LONCIN motor is listed as a gocart motor. Isnt that what everyone is using?

CMG doesnt have alot of info but if people allow xr100 motor based on it being the same as xl100 I cant see the difference. The CMG is a air cooled motor with non comp gearbox. Its just to hard to see where the line is drawn.

The Loncin is generally accepted on the basis that it is a Honda GL145 clone.

I'm not sure about the CMG, yeah the lines do seem a bit fuzzy. Best bet is to not piss about arguing for marginal cases and take up a platform that is indisputable. The engines that attract regular debate tend to be non-competitive lumps of poop anyway so why bother?

[mossy1200]

The Loncin is generally accepted on the basis that it is a Honda CG? 150 clone.

I'm not sure about the CMG, yeah the lines do seem a bit fuzzy. Best bet is to not piss about arguing for marginal cases and take up a platform that is indisputable. The engines that attract regular debate tend to be non-competitive lumps of poop anyway so why bother?

Yeah i understand im just keen to ride something motard style and at that price its just some wheels which I have a front already and some teflon away from riding.

[koba]

Yeah i understand im just keen to ride something motard style and at that price its just some wheels which I have a front already and some teflon away from riding.

It's quite astounding how light a proper MX 125 rolling chassis is, a reasonable bike can be made out of one with appropriate rims. Not sure what you would pick one up for ($) though. Maybe cheap(ish) with a blown motor?

You could buy such a bike but it would be real stink to rock up after putting a whole lot of effort into it to find it isn't considered legal.
You are unlikely to be told to piss off in such a case but still; a legal bike is best for all concerned.
The other thing to consider is the patchy quality of Chinese built machines.
Yeah, sure the Brits said the same thing about the Japs once but I've seen some really crap products from some of the Chinese factories. Loncin has proven to be reasonable and up to the task in most cases, just a fair bit under-powered compared to modern 4-valve platforms.

[F5 Dave]

Legal, along with all its after market add on goodies to take it up to 19hp
262251

Illegal
262252

Dont shoot the messenger, I didnt write the rules
that won't make 19hp with legal aftermarket goodies &/or without increasing the capacity to over F5 limit.

Look I'm conflicted. The F5 class is down on numbers so I do want it to survive, after all I'd have to change my name to F4 Dave & it just wouldn't have the same ring (+ F5 button refreshes the screen, go on push it).

XR range were an Enduro model back in the day, although it doesn't look like it now, but people raced the 200s & 250s & even 500s heaven help them, in serious Enduros against PEs ITs KDXs & whatever else.

The 100s though were aimed at kids. the engines of the earlier ones were pretty bum basic.

But couldn't tell you what a CRF/CRF F were. Maybe people MX race them. Who knows?

[kel]

that won't make 19hp with legal aftermarket goodies &/or without increasing the capacity to over F5 limit.

Sure it will.
"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted"
Bidalot offer a bolt up kit for 19hp. Sure the kit was designed with racing in mind but it is a bolt up kit for a road going non-competition motorcycle, hence the Dip's run metrakit setups which are perfectly legal. Its only a matter of time until a 19hp 50 turns up on the track, the bridged exhaust port RG50 will then be relegated to fight it out with the XR100's :shutup:

[Shorty_925]

XR range were an Enduro model back in the day, although it doesn't look like it now, but people raced the 200s & 250s & even 500s heaven help them, in serious Enduros against PEs ITs KDXs & whatever else.

The 100s though were aimed at kids. the engines of the earlier ones were pretty bum basic.

But couldn't tell you what a CRF/CRF F were. Maybe people MX race them. Who knows?

Must have been a number of years ago that an XR was raced in enduro's. When did the PE & IT stop being produced? Early/Mid 80's.

CRF100 - are Kids/Fun (Im guessing an XR100 rebranded as you cant buy a new XR100)
CRF150F - are a Trail bike
CRF150R RB - is the MX bike.

The trail bike/fun/kids bikes are the air cooled motors, the RB is the liquid cooled bike.

http://www.honda-motorcycles.co.nz/BikeType/38/off-road-recreational

What else do you do to save F5 class? Buggered if I know.

[F5 Dave]

Must have been a number of years ago that an XR was raced in enduro's. When did the PE & IT stop being produced? Early/Mid 80's.

About when the rules were concocted as we know them now.

[jasonu]

I am really bloody sick and tired of these wankers that are trying to twist the rules or the wording of the rules or looking for loopholes in the rules just so they can enter (or sell) some sort of gray area machine. This is supposed to be a fun AND competitive class. It is not the world championships or something like the Americas Cup which was fucked up by that wanker Michael Fay and his lawyers when they found a 'loophole' in the rules and it has never been the same since.
How about buy a LEGAL ready built bucket or, for fucks sake buy an FXR and race that! It is not that hard to do it properly and still be completely within the rules. In the long run it will cost less, be less trouble, you will find heaps of advice from other racers for free and you wil not have anyone questioning the legality of your machine. And when you are done with your legal machine there will always be a buyer for it. It is not as if the rules need to be opened up because of lack of entries (like in the late 90's) or because one particular type of machine is totally dominant.
The presant rules work just fine as they are.
Just my opinion, no offense intended.

[F5 Dave]

Sure it will.
"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted"
Bidalot offer a bolt up kit for 19hp. Sure the kit was designed with racing in mind but it is a bolt up kit for a road going non-competition motorcycle, hence the Dip's run metrakit setups which are perfectly legal. Its only a matter of time until a 19hp 50 turns up on the track, the bridged exhaust port RG50 will then be relegated to fight it out with the XR100's :shutup:

I think you're on drugs, unless you are having the 's' argument on Motors then it is clearly a competition engine part.

Personally I would never buy a hot up cylinder, I think that is far too close to grey area, maybe I am too conservitive, but to the D's credit they are not racing parts, they are sold as road going big bore cyclinders.

My poor old RG one has one exhaust port.

[jasonu]

My poor old RG one has one exhaust port.

And so do they all (except one that I know of)

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I think Kel was assuming mine was so equiped. Think I got shown that barrel in a dirt floored basement in west Auckland. Along with the 1 water entry no exit DS80LC:facepalm:

[Timber020]

I am really bloody sick and tired of these wankers that are trying to twist the rules or the wording of the rules or looking for loopholes in the rules just so they can enter (or sell) some sort of gray area machine. This is supposed to be a fun AND competitive class. It is not the world championships or something like the Americas Cup which was fucked up by that wanker Michael Fay and his lawyers when they found a 'loophole' in the rules and it has never been the same since.
How about buy a LEGAL ready built bucket or, for fucks sake buy an FXR and race that! It is not that hard to do it properly and still be completely within the rules. In the long run it will cost less, be less trouble, you will find heaps of advice from other racers for free and you wil not have anyone questioning the legality of your machine. And when you are done with your legal machine there will always be a buyer for it. It is not as if the rules need to be opened up because of lack of entries (like in the late 90's) or because one particular type of machine is totally dominant.
The presant rules work just fine as they are.

The FXR doesnt help the shortage of good f5 machines about. F4 has an unlimitied supply of loncin engines and a healthy stable of fxr's available.
At one stage wasnt there debate about the legality of the fxr?

[Yow Ling]

The FXR doesnt help the shortage of good f5 machines about. F4 has an unlimitied supply of loncin engines and a healthy stable of fxr's available.
At one stage wasnt there debate about the legality of the fxr?

Yes there was a question about the FXR legality, when the capacity limit was 140cc, that got fixed .

Is F5 limited by the supply of bikes, or just that most people prefer the bigger F4 bikes ?

A bit like pre 82 numbers falling while pre 89 grows, just the riders preference.

there are plenty of classes competing in the small bike stakes F5, F4, Steetstock, 250 twins, then the junior posties, 125s. I guess F5 just fell off the radar

[Timber020]

Yes there was a question about the FXR legality, when the capacity limit was 140cc, that got fixed .

Is F5 limited by the supply of bikes, or just that most people prefer the bigger F4 bikes ?

A bit like pre 82 numbers falling while pre 89 grows, just the riders preference.

there are plenty of classes competing in the small bike stakes F5, F4, Steetstock, 250 twins, then the junior posties, 125s. I guess F5 just fell off the radar

If your after a bike that fits f5 rules, is less than a grand but has the brakes/engine/frame that will make a good bucket racer for your average guy wanting to race, what would you choose?

[Henk]

I am really bloody sick and tired of these wankers that are trying to twist the rules or the wording of the rules or looking for loopholes in the rules just so they can enter (or sell) some sort of gray area machine. This is supposed to be a fun AND competitive class. It is not the world championships or something like the Americas Cup which was fucked up by that wanker Michael Fay and his lawyers when they found a 'loophole' in the rules and it has never been the same since.
How about buy a LEGAL ready built bucket or, for fucks sake buy an FXR and race that! It is not that hard to do it properly and still be completely within the rules. In the long run it will cost less, be less trouble, you will find heaps of advice from other racers for free and you wil not have anyone questioning the legality of your machine. And when you are done with your legal machine there will always be a buyer for it. It is not as if the rules need to be opened up because of lack of entries (like in the late 90's) or because one particular type of machine is totally dominant.
The presant rules work just fine as they are.


All valid arguments if you are talking about F4 and yes I have an FXR or two in the shed. Now please point me at the F5 equivalent of an FXR, and it isn't an RG50, they seem as rare as hens teeth these days, if they weren't I'd have two by now.

[Buckets4Me]

All valid arguments if you are talking about F4 and yes I have an FXR or two in the shed. Now please point me at the F5 equivalent of an FXR, and it isn't an RG50, they seem as rare as hens teeth these days, if they weren't I'd have two by now.

cb100
cl100

:facepalm: I think E.S.E have a few in the back of the shed

looks like the crf100 is a kids bike

Looking like your favourite MX hero has never been easier with the CRF100F.
It packs all the great off-road features most families need - 4 stroke power,
low seat height, plush suspension and edgy CRF graphics.




and the crf150f is a trail bike so both LEGAL ?


Big enough to keep experienced adults entertained but small and light for beginner riders.
With a modest 826mm seat height, ultra-reliable engine and great handling chassis,
the CRF150F redefines off-road fun.


*Front and rear carrier are optional extras




thecrf150r is an mxbike

These highly charged racing machines are designed for truly ground breaking performance.
They feature Unicam engines, race ready suspension and track-designed chassis -
the ideal tool for fun-filled exhilaration.

[Henk]

cb100
cl100

:facepalm:

Not exactly as available or competitive as an FXR straight off the blocks in any class I would have thought. The XL100 engine I have in my F5 bike at the moment isn't all that nice an engine to ride, and is about thirty years old, tried finding a piston for one lately? Only ones out there seem to be NOS genuine parts, on eBay from somewhere in Asia.

[Timber020]

cb100
cl100

:facepalm: I think E.S.E have a few in the back of the shed

Drum brakes on both, not even up to rg50 standards

[Yow Ling]

If your after a bike that fits f5 rules, is less than a grand but has the brakes/engine/frame that will make a good bucket racer for your average guy wanting to race, what would you choose?

Maybe a good F5 bike costs more than a grand, I have an Aprilia RS50 wasnt much more than that, we use it for training 10yr olds.

[Bert]

Must have been a number of years ago that an XR was raced in enduro's. When did the PE & IT stop being produced? Early/Mid 80's.

CRF100 - are Kids/Fun (Im guessing an XR100 rebranded as you cant buy a new XR100)
CRF150F - are a Trail bike
CRF150R RB - is the MX bike.

The trail bike/fun/kids bikes are the air cooled motors, the RB is the liquid cooled bike.



my two cents:

CRF100 engine looks more like the SL/XL. (legal) its not a competition bike; its a kids play/toy...
CRF150F - Farm bike; barely a trail bike, just Honda hype; we use them at work (managements' replacement for XR200s) and I'd rather have a 20 year old mudbug or XR200s back any day... there is no way these are a competition bike, it would be unsafe to try...(legal)
CRF150RB - pretend MX bike; honda's attempt to replace their CR80s.....Fail..... (but illegal).

But the classes are for miniature road race bikes not motards/trail bikes. for years people have been stripping engines out of "farm bikes"/road bikes or what ever and building road race bikes.
if you want to have a go racing motards get the motard boys to organise an entry level class (or if you are lucky enough the bucket boys might help you out); if you want to race F4/F5 put the motor in a frame that represents the foundation of what the class was originally designed around; Road racing GP bikes (I'll leave it to you about what generation/era of GP bikes you aim for).

F5 is a little bit of an issue regarding supply; the CRF100 fits the rules just put it in something...
(maybe someone should look importing in AM6 motors (10hp max 6 speed ~400USD out of china new or ~800USD second hand via Europe from China)).

[speedpro]

"unicam" . . . . .

How to make a single overhead cam a selling point.

My old CB360 was a unicam model as was my CB750. I've owned cars that were unicam.

My bucket is "camless" which must make it pretty damn cool if only having one cam is something special, 'cause it's got one less cam than a unicam.

My car has a "bicam" engine. I knew it wasn't any good.

[jasonu]

If your after a bike that fits f5 rules, is less than a grand but has the brakes/engine/frame that will make a good bucket racer for your average guy wanting to race, what would you choose?

RG50 everytime. May be a bit long in the tooth now but a properly sorted one will still deliver a lot of fun and be relatively (to the amount of $'s spent to buy) competitive.

[jasonu]

Now please point me at the F5 equivalent of an FXR, and it isn't an RG50, they seem as rare as hens teeth these days, if they weren't I'd have two by now.

Not sure mate. Maybe an aircooled 124 2 stroke with a 15mm carb:not:
As someone said in a recient post maybe F5 is a dying class (hope not) and unless a saviour and within the rules bike comes along (as in an F4 equivalent FXR)...
With the current large numbers in buckets and the small F5 interest would it be possible to look at revamping the classes into say A, B, and C grade all based on lap times and results? Just a thought.

[richban]

Not sure mate. Maybe an aircooled 124 2 stroke with a 15mm carb:not:
As someone said in a recient post maybe F5 is a dying class (hope not) and unless a saviour and within the rules bike comes along (as in an F4 equivalent FXR)...
With the current large numbers in buckets and the small F5 interest would it be possible to look at revamping the classes into say A, B, and C grade all based on lap times and results? Just a thought.

I think you can blame scooter's for the problem. I used to ride a GT50 to school there were guys on MB's and RD's all over the place. Little bit of street racing might have happened. Also used to sneak into Bay Park for a few laps. Scooters have taken there place. Sad but looks like not that many people are keen on them now. I love them. Will never build one coz I don't have the time.

[Shorty_925]

my two cents: But the classes are for miniature road race bikes not motards/trail bikes. for years people have been stripping engines out of "farm bikes"/road bikes or what ever and building road race bikes.
if you want to have a go racing motards get the motard boys to organise an entry level class (or if you are lucky enough the bucket boys might help you out); if you want to race F4/F5 put the motor in a frame that represents the foundation of what the class was originally designed around; Road racing GP bikes (I'll leave it to you about what generation/era of GP bikes you aim for).

F5 is a little bit of an issue regarding supply; the CRF100 fits the rules just put it in something...
(maybe someone should look importing in AM6 motors (10hp max 6 speed ~400USD out of china new or ~800USD second hand via Europe from China)).

I was only pointing out options for engines I believe two of the three honda's above are possible engines for F4 & F5, not the actual bikes themselves. I have ridden a DRZ125 around a kart track, and it is a hell of alot fun.

[F5 Dave]

. . .. Now please point me at the F5 equivalent of an FXR, and it isn't an RG50, they seem as rare as hens teeth these days, if they weren't I'd have two by now.
Well it was, back in the day, hence I had two (one for going to work & doing silly stuff like the Cold Kiwi etc).

[F5 Dave]

Not sure mate. Maybe an aircooled 124 2 stroke with a 15mm carb:not:
As someone said in a recient post maybe F5 is a dying class (hope not) and unless a saviour and within the rules bike comes along (as in an F4 equivalent FXR)...
With the current large numbers in buckets and the small F5 interest would it be possible to look at revamping the classes into say A, B, and C grade all based on lap times and results? Just a thought.
In wgtn we have run A B & C for some years. We used to have 50 class, but sort of dried up, we need more & we could run the 50s off the back of the B grade races. Andrew Adlam has one but needs to get some wheels sorted so it runs proper tyres. Fishe still has one. We could get out & have a good race. Best races I've had have been on 50s.

[NSR143]

Most of us are familar with the rules, for those that aren't,

http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Chapter_24_Road_Racing_Miniature.pdf
MNZ have been/are of NO use to detirmine what is legal or not.
Lets collectivly sort this out!
We (the racers) are the ones policing the rules so we all should make it clear.
F5 is a great class just lacking no.s!!
There are very few donor engines available and those that are, are getting old and hard to find.
eg, RG50, Cb100, sl100 ect.
The only engine at the moment becoming very available is the XR100 or CRF100. but fall into the usual grey area.
My opinion is they are legal!!
What do you all think?
Also opinions on the CRF150f (2 valve aircooled, very similar to GL145)as legal or not.
Not the CRF150r which is the watercooled 4 valve motocross bike, that is clearly ILLEGAL.
Dont forget to vote on the poll.

If you turned out at one of my meetings on a CRF150F or an XR100/CRF100 (or with said engine in another frame) I would consider it fully legal for the classes they fall into. If a rider was to protest it they could put their $50 (or whatever) in the hands of the Steward at a meeting and find.... I am in no doubt..... that they would lose their money in accordance with the rules in the MNZ handbook.

Chances are JC and Skunk would be of the same opinion as myself.

Steve Bennett

[jasonu]

If you turned out at one of my meetings on a CRF150F or an XR100/CRF100 (or with said engine in another frame) I would consider it fully legal for the classes they fall into. If a rider was to protest it they could put their $50 (or whatever) in the hands of the Steward at a meeting and find.... I am in no doubt..... that they would lose their money in accordance with the rules in the MNZ handbook.

Chances are JC and Skunk would be of the same opinion as myself.

Steve Bennett

Then hopefully that will happen and thus resolve these issues either way.

[Henk]

Then hopefully that will happen and thus resolve these issues either way.

Jason
I'll have an XR100 powered bucket at the next Auckland meeting. Bring you fifty bucks, not sure but you may have to be an entered rider to protest so you might want to hav a troll through the rule book first.

[ac3_snow]

Jason
I'll have an XR100 powered bucket at the next Auckland meeting.

your on!! I'll beat you on my XR100....




maybe at the june meet tho don't know if I will hav it going by may :scooter:

[TZ350]

Bring you fifty bucks, not sure but you may have to be an entered rider to protest

Yes have to ride in the same race and make your protest within 30min of the race finishing.

[Henk]

your on!! I'll beat you on my XR100....




maybe at the june meet tho don't know if I will hav it going by may :scooter:

Damn you move fast, mint, although now I may have to get onto getting mine finished properly

[sidwyz]

If you turned out at one of my meetings on a CRF150F or an XR100/CRF100 (or with said engine in another frame) I would consider it fully legal for the classes they fall into. If a rider was to protest it they could put their $50 (or whatever) in the hands of the Steward at a meeting and find.... I am in no doubt..... that they would lose their money in accordance with the rules in the MNZ handbook.

Chances are JC and Skunk would be of the same opinion as myself.

Steve Bennett

This quote pretty much sums it up. 100% legal. great, cheers. :cool:

Not one bit of opposition, except for Rick, but thats OK he can protest himself!!

[sidwyz]

Question for those who voted legal to XR100/CRF100 but illegal to CRF150f

Why did you vote CRF150f illegal?

[Dutchee]

I went to finally vote and stopped to think. Almost went 150F illegal, but feel that's wrong. It's just a bigger XR/CRF100 engine (feck, what would I know) and is a kids' trailbike. CRF150R is illegal, as that's the MX version.
Maybe we need to get the rules changed from whatever year they were last changed, so that the field isn't running "illegal" bikes, and we don't have to worry about those on smokers protesting us.
Then again, we could just ride our bikes, and my mechanic can sort out the politics of it all.

[Moooools]

Question for those who voted legal to XR100/CRF100 but illegal to CRF150f

Why did you vote CRF150f illegal?

I voted that way because the CRF100 engine has been used in multiple legitimate (non-debatable) non competition motorcycles. Given it is (to my knowledge) a drop-in replacement it is legal.

The CRF150 hasn't been used in a non competition bike (to my knowledge) so therefore it stands as Honda sells it. As a part of its competition line.

[Buckets4Me]

The CRF150 hasn't been used in a non competition bike (to my knowledge) so therefore it stands as Honda sells it. As a part of its competition line.

the crf150 is sold as a kids bike ? where is the competition part of that ?

the cbr150 road bike would be more of a competition bike (I'm sure someone said that honda listed the cylinder as for racing or some such in the parts book here in NZ)

[Yow Ling]

the cbr150 road bike would be more of a competition bike

Isnt that an oxymoron ?

[Henk]

I voted that way because the CRF100 engine has been used in multiple legitimate (non-debatable) non competition motorcycles. Given it is (to my knowledge) a drop-in replacement it is legal.

The CRF150 hasn't been used in a non competition bike (to my knowledge) so therefore it stands as Honda sells it. As a part of its competition line.

There are two flavours of CRF150
The CRF150R MX bike that everybody agrees is illegal and
The CRF150F that is a kids play bike and Hondas answer to the DR125, TTR125 etc that is about as legal as you can get as far as I can see

[jasonu]

Yes have to ride in the same race and make your protest within 30min of the race finishing.

What about if Henk beats me off on his xr100?????

[Henk]

What about if Henk beats me off on his xr100?????

Then you'll be in a perfect position to protest since I must have a cheater bike.

[jasonu]

Then you'll be in a perfect position to protest since I must have a cheater bike.

Sorry mate, read my post again. There is a bit of rude humour I think you missed.
I don't think for a minute you are riding a cheater.

[timg]

The CRF150F is 5 gears 2 valve 12 hp out of the box. Think I'll stick with my DOHC 17 hp 6 speed FXR. What am I missing? :confused: What's the threat the CRF150f presents? Doesn't seem like its a FXR/CBR 150 beater? :wait:

[Moooools]

There are two flavours of CRF150
The CRF150R MX bike that everybody agrees is illegal and
The CRF150F that is a kids play bike and Hondas answer to the DR125, TTR125 etc that is about as legal as you can get as far as I can see

Yeah I got that much.
On inspection the website does list it separately to its competition models - as a "Trail" bike. Probably means it sneaks in.

On that basis I will retract my previous statement.

[TZ350]

What about if Henk beats me off on his xr100?????

I feel your pain, I was beaten one year at Taupo in F4 by a Girl riding a Honda 100 in a RG50 frame.... :laugh:

[jasonu]

I feel your pain, I was beaten one year at Taupo in F4 by a Girl riding a Honda 100 in a RG50 frame.... :laugh:

You probably built it for her...

[crazy man]

my drink said you are all cheats so thats that

[Henk]

Sorry mate, read my post again. There is a bit of rude humour I think you missed.
I don't think for a minute you are riding a cheater.

I'm far to innocent, naive and homophobic to understand that sort of innuendo.

[Henk]

my drink said you are all cheats so thats that

Case closed, there is no possible further appeal.

[jasonu]

I'm far to innocent, naive and homophobic to understand that sort of innuendo.


Case closed, there is no possible further appeal.

Cobblers!!!

[crazy man]

its all over thats go:headbang:

[Rick 52]

its all over thats go:headbang:

It's all over what ? Errr Gravill ! fffff fetch ye cloth ....:bleh:

CRF150 ...so slow and bloody expensive ..why would you ?

[F5 Dave]

You probably built it for her...

No, but the frame had winning pedigree:banana:.

[motor_mayhem]

I generally only ride/race off-road except for commuting to work. However I did take few moments to look into this bucket racing shenanigans thing and noted the model restrictions. If they did make xr100 and/or crf100/150f bikes (both frames and engines) legal I would be interested in having a crack at it. The crf 150 is hardly different from the fxr so I don't see why it isn't allowed. I note pit bikes are allowed but I think the frames on them are too flimsy for my liking.

I can understand them refusing to allow the crf150r as they are a different ball game entirely and would easily smack down the fxr.

[Henk]

My interpretation is that the CRF 100 / 150s are legal as they are a trail bike the R model is obviously illegal. I'm confident enough that I have used the 100 motor in an F5 build and a interested to see the outcome if anyone is keen enough to stump up the cash for a protest.
I also don't think the frames aren't really what's required which is why I went down the engine transplant route instead of just fitting some other rims to a dirt bike.
Your mileage of course may vary.

[Gigglebutton]

My interpretation is that the CRF 100 / 150s are legal as they are a trail bike the R model is obviously illegal. I'm confident enough that I have used the 100 motor in an F5 build and a interested to see the outcome if anyone is keen enough to stump up the cash for a protest.
I also don't think the frames aren't really what's required which is why I went down the engine transplant route instead of just fitting some other rims to a dirt bike.
Your mileage of course may vary.

I love my RG, but I have done so much work to it to get it to handle and have good power. If I had to pay someone to do the work I have done ,it would be a 10K+ build and it is still a work in progress. That bike of yours is such a nice bike to ride. Thanks for sharing. Nice power and the frame seems so much better without the 150 in it. It has my vote. A way cheeper bike to build and an easier bike to ride than the RG.

[richban]

I don't really have a problem with the engine's mentioned at all. From memory they are all 2 valve longish stroke engines the same as a lunchen. What's the problem. Those 100 engine's could be the saver of F5 and also a way of getting more kids into the sport. Let them play I say.

[NSR143]

I generally only ride/race off-road except for commuting to work. However I did take few moments to look into this bucket racing shenanigans thing and noted the model restrictions. If they did make xr100 and/or crf100/150f bikes (both frames and engines) legal I would be interested in having a crack at it. The crf 150 is hardly different from the fxr so I don't see why it isn't allowed. I note pit bikes are allowed but I think the frames on them are too flimsy for my liking.

I can understand them refusing to allow the crf150r as they are a different ball game entirely and would easily smack down the fxr.

"xr100 and/or crf100/150f bikes (both frames and engines) legal I would" ..............they are legal so do it.

[husaberg]

The CRF100/XR100 are trail bikes they actually are homologated for the trail bike class in the MNZ mini rules.

They are clearly trail/fun bikes as are the the CRF/XR50's

The crf150f are also trail/fun bikes.

The CRF150R is an out and out competition MX bike. So it is illegal.

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/competitionrules.aspx

[gav]

The CRF100/XR100 are trail bikes they actually are homologated for the trail bike class in the MNZ mini rules.

They are clearly trail/fun bikes as are the the CRF/XR50's

The crf150f are also trail/fun bikes.

The CRF150R is an out and out competition MX bike. So it is illegal.

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/competitionrules.aspx
Hmmm, so if MNZ have a trail bike class in Mini MX does it therefore mean they are competition bikes? :facepalm:

The following machines have been homologated and approved for mini motocross competition:

7-11 (u 12) years Trail
(Note: all machines homologated to this class have a minimum wheel size of 14 inch front & 12 inch rear)
CMG JS 80 (2004 – 2010) CMG JS 90 (2004 – 2010)
Honda CRF 70 (2004 – 2010) Honda XR70 (1997 – 2010)
Honda XR80 (1979 – 2010) Honda CRF 80 (2004 – 2010)
Honda XR100 (1985 – 2010) Honda CRF 100 (2004 – 2010)
Kawasaki KLX 110 (2002 – 2010) Polini XP4R (2010)
Suzuki DRZ 110 (2003 – 2010) Suzuki DS80 (1990 – 2010)
Suzuki JR80 (2001 – 2010) Suzuki DR-Z70
Yamaha PW 90 (2002 – 2010) Yamaha TTR 90 (2000 – 2010)
Yamaha TTR 90E (2004 – 2010) Lifan Club (2005-2010

[husaberg]

Hmmm, so if MNZ have a trail bike class in Mini MX does it therefore mean they are competition bikes? :facepalm:

The following machines have been homologated and approved for mini motocross competition:

7-11 (u 12) years Trail
(Note: all machines homologated to this class have a minimum wheel size of 14 inch front & 12 inch rear)
CMG JS 80 (2004 – 2010) CMG JS 90 (2004 – 2010)
Honda CRF 70 (2004 – 2010) Honda XR70 (1997 – 2010)
Honda XR80 (1979 – 2010) Honda CRF 80 (2004 – 2010)
Honda XR100 (1985 – 2010) Honda CRF 100 (2004 – 2010)
Kawasaki KLX 110 (2002 – 2010) Polini XP4R (2010)
Suzuki DRZ 110 (2003 – 2010) Suzuki DS80 (1990 – 2010)
Suzuki JR80 (2001 – 2010) Suzuki DR-Z70
Yamaha PW 90 (2002 – 2010) Yamaha TTR 90 (2000 – 2010)
Yamaha TTR 90E (2004 – 2010) Lifan Club (2005-2010

Without going into the Motors Vs Parts debate which the MNZ can't even fix, or wish to fix.(police it ourselves wasn't it. LOL

Sorry but the competition is pretty clearly (by MNZ standards) defined by the MNZ in the Miniature road race rules.


24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no
restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve
springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally
aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged.
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm
carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a
single 20mm carburettor.

The other classes are the "competition bikes in the MNZ Minis". the rules as defined by the MNZ for F4 and F5 (Buckets) in which competition engines exclude, "MX, enduro Road race and go Kart Motors". Not trailbikes.
This class (the trail bike class get it Trail Class) was created to encourage participation by people that have play/Trail bikes that are not competitive, with the competition bikes. they list the eligible bikes (the homologation list) of what they deem aret tail"/ fun bikes only so someone doesn't use a real competition bike)

The minis generally also have a Non Comp class as well which you can ride any bike you like. (Say a FXR150 if you so wished) in which is for new entrants.

If you use your logic to the extent you have. As soon as someone enters a FXR150 in the MX2 class. The FXR150s will then be ineligible for buckets mmmm.....:corn:
Then again using your logic Gav as you race in the F5 class "your bike is a competition bike is it not?":Oops:

[jasonu]

Hmmm, so if MNZ have a trail bike class in Mini MX does it therefore mean they are competition bikes? :facepalm:

The following machines have been homologated and approved for mini motocross competition:

7-11 (u 12) years Trail
(Note: all machines homologated to this class have a minimum wheel size of 14 inch front & 12 inch rear)
CMG JS 80 (2004 – 2010) CMG JS 90 (2004 – 2010)
Honda CRF 70 (2004 – 2010) Honda XR70 (1997 – 2010)
Honda XR80 (1979 – 2010) Honda CRF 80 (2004 – 2010)
Honda XR100 (1985 – 2010) Honda CRF 100 (2004 – 2010)
Kawasaki KLX 110 (2002 – 2010) Polini XP4R (2010)
Suzuki DRZ 110 (2003 – 2010) Suzuki DS80 (1990 – 2010)
Suzuki JR80 (2001 – 2010) Suzuki DR-Z70
Yamaha PW 90 (2002 – 2010) Yamaha TTR 90 (2000 – 2010)
Yamaha TTR 90E (2004 – 2010) Lifan Club (2005-2010

Nit picker

[TZ350]

The good thing is that in their wisdom MNZ have decleared F4 F5 (Buckets) self regulating.

They trust us to sort it out for ourselves.

Which means, as a class we can make our own common sense decisions about these little things. :D

[husaberg]

The good thing is that in their wisdom MNZ have decleared F4 F5 (Buckets) self regulating.

They trust us to sort it out for ourselves.

Which means, as a class we can make our own common sense decisions about these little things. :D

Interestingly that was the sole part of the reply to the eligibility question that Gav asked the MNZ to clarify that actually made sense.
The rest of the MNZ's reply was written in such a manner that it was unable for anyone to comprehend exactly what the MNZ position was.:shutup:
They said they were going to clarify the MNZ position on the Website. As of today they still haven't which is a pity really.

Although if you look at the rules changes open for discussion and feed back there are a lot of possible rule changes opening up parts source eligibility requirements with the idea of keeping costs down.

[TZ350]

If you use your logic to the extent you have.

As soon as someone enters a FXR150 in the MX2 class. The FXR150s will then be ineligible for buckets mmmm.....:corn:
Then again using your logic Gav as you race in the F5 class "your bike is a competition bike is it not?":Oops:

I have been thinking about that because I have been looking at making my own cylinder specifically for a Suzuki GP125 engine being raced in F4.

Now making your own is legal and a bit clever but to sell one to someone else?

As it would be a compition part specifically made for racing, does then make it illegal for others to buy and use in F4?

[gav]

Hehehe, yeah I was just playing with ya, again its interesting how you can interpret the rules.

Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.
Motocross, Road Racing,Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.

And I've always wondered why the rules have this bit, Go Karts, since when is a Go Kart a motorcycle? :innocent:
Again its that bloody S on the end of MOTORS isnt it?

And I wouldnt dare race my FXR in F5 mate, its way too big .... :corn:

[husaberg]

Hehehe, yeah I was just playing with ya, again its interesting how you can interpret the rules.


And I wouldnt dare race my FXR in F5 mate, its way too big .... :corn:

Well in my defense the 5 is next to the 4 on the key board. I also have fat fingers i guess and :beer:

I actually re read the reply (today) to the Email you sent the MNZ Gav.
Without trying to stir up old arguments. In hindsight Well i now think he was really actually opening the can of worms.
If you read the reply again the main thrust of what he was saying was he is seemingly disagreeing with your interpretation that you offered.

But it is sure open to interpretation. In fact as i replied to you at the time there were a number of different ways his reply could be interpreted. Why he chose not to use any commas i have no idea. Yes punctuation tips from me WTF.

I am, for one going to make some submissions anyway. I still wish i could find a copy of the old ACU Bucket rules the ones that said i think Factory hot up as the original rules and there was something with crankcases too i think.

If anyone could find John Shand i bet he would remember:innocent:

[richban]

Delete Delete

[F5 Dave]

. .
Now making your own is legal and a bit clever but to sell one to someone else?. .
How is makingf a new barrel legal? Was it based on a non competition part?

[Moooools]

How is makingf a new barrel legal? Was it based on a non competition part?

How about if you melt down the old barrel and use the aluminum? Then it is derived from non competition parts.

[TZ350]

How is making a new barrel legal? Was it based on a non competition part?

I hadn't thought about that, just assumed you could make anything from scratch and it would be legal because it wasn't originally a competition part. :blank:


How about if you melt down the old barrel and use the aluminum? Then it is derived from non competition parts.

I like your thinking ...... :laugh: and may well have to do that.

But it does raise the question of the legal status of home made engine parts, like cylinders and heads.

[Henk]

I was under the impression that home made parts were legal. Not sure why but it is about as "in the spirit of buckets" as it is possible to get.

[jasonu]

I hadn't thought about that, just assumed you could make anything from scratch and it would be legal because it wasn't originally a competition part. :blank:
.

But you can make any engine part from scratch, base it on anything you want and it would be legal as it didn't come from a competition motor. Nothing stopping you from machining a direct (say) RS125 copy set of engine cases if you wanted to. I had home cast heads that I cut the exact same dome and squish band that an RS125 has.
Legal? Of course makeing stuff from scratch is fucking legal. That is what Buckets is all about. Who is saying it isn't?

[jasonu]

How is makingf a new barrel legal? Was it based on a non competition part?

Are you on drugs or are you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SK3y1a8TYs

[husaberg]

How is makingf a new barrel legal? Was it based on a non competition part?


Your kidding aren't ya.

How is making a barrel meant to be illegal?

[TZ350]

But you can make any engine part from scratch, base it on anything you want and it would be legal as it didn't come from a competition motor.

I will have to have another look at the wording of the rules. "didn't come from a competition motor" is a bit different to having to be "based on a non competition part" or made/modified/developed from an existing "non competition part"


Your kidding aren't ya. How is making a barrel meant to be illegal?


I was under the impression that home made parts were legal. Not sure why but it is about as "in the spirit of buckets" as it is possible to get.

Yes, that's what I thought too ..... :scratch:

[koba]

But it is sure open to interpretation. In fact as i replied to you at the time there were a number of different ways his reply could be interpreted. Why he chose not to use any commas i have no idea. Yes punctuation tips from me WTF.


I have been in a similar situation with rules in another class.
The person who wrote the (flawed) rules was standing right next to me as I explained my interpretation to another observer.
He (quite rightly) corrected me but I didn't really like the condescending tone; his words dripped hubris.
I replied something along the lines of: "Well, you better tell that guy, he explained the rules to me and he has invested a considerable amount in maximising his position under the rules as he understands them, I know he is a smart bugger so I trust he would have interpreted them as well as anyone might expect".

OK, my reply wasn't quite that well formulated on the spot at the time but that was the gist of it.

I was quite shocked at how dismissive the person was.

The self policing comment is an absolute shocker too but in light many things I've seen; the less we have to do with 'them' the better.

[richban]

How about if you melt down the old barrel and use the aluminum? Then it is derived from non competition parts.

So I could like, melt down two 2 strokes and make a 4 stroke.

If someone made an engine from scratch then I would buy them a beer, not worry about if it was legal. Or what it was based on.

[koba]

So I could like, melt down two 2 strokes and make a 4 stroke.

If someone made an engine from scratch then I would buy them a beer, not worry about if it was legal. Or what it was based on.

That uniflow 2 stroke would count, wouldn't it?

I'd love to know more about that if anyone has any more info...

[husaberg]

I have been in a similar situation with rules in another class.
The person who wrote the (flawed) rules was standing right next to me as I explained my interpretation to another observer.
He (quite rightly) corrected me but I didn't really like the condescending tone; his words dripped hubris.
I replied something along the lines of: "Well, you better tell that guy, he explained the rules to me and he has invested a considerable amount in maximising his position under the rules as he understands them, I know he is a smart bugger so I trust he would have interpreted them as well as anyone might expect".

OK, my reply wasn't quite that well formulated on the spot at the time but that was the gist of it.

I was quite shocked at how dismissive the person was.

The self policing comment is an absolute shocker too but in light many things I've seen; the less we have to do with 'them' the better.

That uniflow 2 stroke would count, wouldn't it?

I'd love to know more about that if anyone has any more info...


So would i. Speedpro or someone has mentioned weedeater conrods etc but shit this stuff really needs to be sorted before someone starts building a motor to the rules as they are written rather than how they may or may not be intended.

The rules need to be made so they are both affordable and fair to all.
The bearing should be open as should all internal parts with the possible exception of ceramic bearings which are bloody expensive. I would put Titanium rods and valves in the same boat as well.

But fooling around with 30 year New old stock YZ100 pistons or Wiesco over size for 85's and std bearing that are significantly dearer than competition parts is getting rather silly so the cc should maybe creep up a little to say 112cc for LC engines then Cheaper better and Safer kart pistons could be used.

[richban]

The rules need to be made so they are both affordable and fair to all.
The bearing should be open as should all internal parts with the possible exception of ceramic bearings which are bloody expensive. I would put Titanium rods and valves in the same boat as well.

But fooling around with 30 year New old stock YZ100 pistons or Wiesco over size for 85's and std bearing that are significantly dearer than competition parts is getting rather silly so the cc should maybe creep up a little to say 112cc for LC engines then Cheaper better and Safer kart pistons could be used.

Ahhh super funny. I should not laugh so hard with my busted up ribs. I like the bit about affordable and fair to all. That had me in the most pain.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[avgas]

Now that Buckets = F5 any chance we can have a POS class? I would pay to watch that.

heh F5
http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/field-tests/F5-magazine-field-test_files/image002.jpg

[husaberg]

Ahhh super funny. I should not laugh so hard with my busted up ribs. I like the bit about affordable and fair to all. That had me in the most pain.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

OK my build is not that normal. Ok it's not that cheap either.
But it is still to a realistic budget. Infact far cheaper than for instance my sons 50cc mx bike.
It should also be competitive and last for more than three years unlike the KTM50.
Ok there could also have been a wee tiny (say dynamic squish) bit of two stroke bias creeping in there also.:innocent:

but it is true that a Kart piston can be had for about $80 that is suitable for a 100cc bucket (available in honeable oversizes)
It is of course legal but to use it requires destroking this is not an issue for me (I am destroking anyway) but all those 100cc 2 strokes would have to destroke to use Them. Like speedpro did (it is not cheap) or like i was forced to do use a near $200 Wiesco prolite piston. Well i could have used a MB100 piston, but Honda don't make them anymore and even if they did they would have to be replace 4 times as often at 2x the price.

Also the bearings (MX ones)and so forth are better and cheaper But not everyone interprets them as legal. (Not getting into any arguments about them here though)
The rods for instance Wob has just imported a 100% by anyone's interpretation legal Rod for me. Cost $250 A MX one would have been far far cheaper.say probably $100-$125 (possibly better as well.)

The rules that were made to contain costs well sadly they no longer do. They increase them.

Remember the rules used to cap four strokes at 130.5cc because that was then common oversize for 125cc bikes.
100cc 2 strokes were common back then too.
The rules were first changed to accommodate Gl145 and then FXR150 to ensure cheap racing. So why not afford the 2 strokes the say leeway Rich?
We are only talking 6 cc here Rich and some bearings not MX cylinders or Rs crankshafts and gearbox's and mega expensive bit and pieces.
Bucket racing is meant to be affordable so is it not sensible to make use of the most cost effective parts.
The rules how they were originally written excluded competition parts entirely i think.
The wording was something like any factory hot up parts inc pistons cams valves.(In an effort to keep costs down.)
Well in isn't working as it was originally intended in 2012.
People at times mention the spirit of bucket racing. Well the spirit as i see it is cost effective and close racing for Two and four stokes.:yes:

Exit soapbox.

[Yow Ling]

OK my build is not that normal. Ok it's not that cheap either.

i was forced to do use a near $200 Wiesco prolite piston. Well i could have used a MB100 piston, but Honda don't make them anymore and even if they did they would have to be replace 4 times as often at 2x the price.

Also the bearings (MX ones)and so forth are better and cheaper But not everyone interprets them as legal. (Not getting into any arguments about them here though)

The rules that were made to contain costs well sadly they no longer do. They increase them.

The rules were first changed to accommodate Gl145 and then FXR150 to ensure cheap racing. So why not afford the 2 strokes the say leeway Rich?
We are only talking 6 cc here Rich and some bearings not MX cylinders or Rs crankshafts and gearbox's and mega expensive bit and pieces.

Bucket racing is meant to be affordable so is it not sensible to make use of the most cost effective parts.
The rules how they were originally written excluded competition parts entirely i think.
Well the spirit as i see it is cost effective and close racing for Two and four stokes.:yes:

Exit soapbox.

Bucket racing is affordable , if you have enough money you can afford it.
If you are poor get an FXR, dont try to build a GP bike. and dont get a shitter

So a Wiseco that lasts 4 times as long and is half the price of a Honda oem is somehow expensive ?

103cc is actually ok, if you dont like that , get an fxr or cbr then you can have 158cc, if you get your 2 stroke finished it will be way superior to many bikes, hardly in the spirit of buckets wot wot old chum

Bearings !!!!!!!!! Ceramic bearings are made for what ? Industrial purpose I would guess, so they no problem , big ends , cant see them when pressed up so they legal.

The rules are great if you want to race honestly but dont stand in the way if you dont, no amount of kb dribble is going to stop anyone from going to 106cc if they are dishonest, as far as I know there are no cheater buckets down here, but then its kinda self policing as most guys cant build their own engines anyway and secrets are best if not shared with anyone

[Grumph]

Fercrissake is this crap still going on....as a (very old and experienced) engine bulder the first thing you do is read the rules and build to them - as they are written, not as you want them to be.

watching buckets the hot tuning tip anyway is to fit a young hotshoe who can win on anything....

I would point out that if Husaberg has his way and changes are made to the rules then theres going to have to be a transition period of some considerable time so as not to immediately obsolete existing equipment.

[Bert]

Valid points Yow Ling...


......
So a Wiseco that lasts 4 times as long and is half the price of a Honda oem is somehow expensive ?
Unless you are are unlucky..
Personally I'd rather pay the extra $50 for the forged piston that will last (my current has done 9 hours and looks new). when I was young and poor I used cheaper options and paid the price sitting on the sidelines (lesson learnt) re-builds are expensive; minimise the overall cost by spend a little more at the start...
The key here is when one is designing their new engine choose the right parts (don't compromise at the start), spend some time evaluating the future costs and sizes available before you start.


103cc is actually ok, if you dont like that , get an fxr or cbr then you can have 158cc, if you get your 2 stroke finished it will be way superior to many bikes, hardly in the spirit of buckets wot wot old chum
Totally agree 104cc is workable; as it is the maximum oversize....
106 would be nice but it only offers up options to those that have older engines; that have run out of options...
building a new engine the rules are clear 100cc max; the 104cc is the maximum size for rebored engines....


Bearings !!!!!!!!! Ceramic bearings are made for what ? Industrial purpose I would guess, so they no problem , big ends , cant see them when pressed up so they legal.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks Ceramics are expensive (yes the ones from the bike shops are but go look elsewhere)...
They have become run of the mill bearings in any food/medical factory (run dry; so no contamination from oils/lube).
I brought my two main bearings (size of) for $85pair (which was the price of one C3/C4 SKF)...
a little bit of machining of the crank and away we go (will they last in this application? I hope so...)..


The rules are great if you want to race honestly but dont stand in the way if you dont, no amount of kb dribble is going to stop anyone from going to 106cc if they are dishonest, as far as I know there are no cheater buckets down here, but then its kinda self policing as most guys cant build their own engines anyway and secrets are best if not shared with anyone
The rules are great; If you're cheating; your only cheating yourself and you know you doing wrong (hollow feeling when winning):weird:

[husaberg]

Bucket racing is affordable , if you have enough money you can afford it.
If you are poor get an FXR, dont try to build a GP bike. and dont get a shitter

So a Wiseco that lasts 4 times as long and is half the price of a Honda oem is somehow expensive ?

103cc is actually ok, if you dont like that , get an fxr or cbr then you can have 158cc, if you get your 2 stroke finished it will be way superior to many bikes, hardly in the spirit of buckets wot wot old chum

Bearings !!!!!!!!! Ceramic bearings are made for what ? Industrial purpose I would guess, so they no problem , big ends , cant see them when pressed up so they legal.

The rules are great if you want to race honestly but dont stand in the way if you dont, no amount of kb dribble is going to stop anyone from going to 106cc if they are dishonest, as far as I know there are no cheater buckets down here, but then its kinda self policing as most guys cant build their own engines anyway and secrets are best if not shared with anyone

er...

I kind of think you also missed my point regarding the KT100 pistons. These as i said are far cheaper and better than any Honda or STD product.
The cc's was for the people stuck with motors that are getting towards the end of there life.
The Wiescos are not available in any sizes that would enable oversizes for most 100cc buckets Not a problem for me (plated)but what about the others.
Both our builds are in the spirit of buckets as they are being built to the rules.
It's just ours are at the pointy end of the spectrum so not as affordable for most i would say.
But as you said to me at the very start they are not the typical build they are an old man trying to relive there youth builds.




watching buckets the hot tuning tip anyway is to fit a young hotshoe who can win on anything....

I would point out that if Husaberg has his way and changes are made to the rules then theres going to have to be a transition period of some considerable time so as not to immediately obsolete existing equipment.
The tuned rider right on.
Not sure if i understand your point about the transition period though Greg. Because i am not proposing any radical change that will make much speed difference to any bike. I would say the introduction of the 145's and the 150's was far more radical and that was still successful. I dare say a few people with 2 strokes felt a little hard done by but they soon got over it.
Just cheaper and longer lasting parts. The couple of cc difference what a whole HP if you were lucky.
Plus i can't think of any 100cc bike that had a plated bore STD or that wouldn't go to 52-53mm. The additional cost of a rebore to 52mm would be covered in the price difference of a piston KT vs STD.
What have the the FXR150 runners got to be afraid of? Shit i would give them a few extra cc more if they were so upset about it.
With regard the current rules and the interpretation well me you and Wob can read them as they are written (but i am not opening that can of worms again as i said above) but it seems even the MNZ has trouble reading and writing and replying.

Yeah Brent i agree with most of what you say as i normally do as well. ESP the last bit.
But not everyone has our resources how many new bucket racers are flooding the grids.
Plus how many FXRs are left. What happen when they get a few more 100 hours on them.