What qualifies as "unnecessary exhibition of speed or acceleration on a road"?

[khabel]

So the boy racer act has this in it You must not operate a motor vehicle in a race or in an unnecessary exhibition of speed or acceleration on a road (unless authorised by law).

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/road/boyracerdetails.html

That got me thinking, what qualifies as a unnecessary exhibition of acceleration as long as I dont break the speed limit or wheel spin?

Do they compare my acceleration to the old lady in a morris minor next to me?

Anyone able to elaborate on this a bit?

[BoristheBiter]

The bit that got my attention was this.

If you kill or injure someone while illegally racing, the penalties increase to a maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment, or a fine not exceeding $20,000, and a minimum period of disqualification of 1 year.

Seems a bit of a let off to me.

[Lelitu]

So the boy racer act has this in it You must not operate a motor vehicle in a race or in an unnecessary exhibition of speed or acceleration on a road (unless authorised by law).

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/road/boyracerdetails.html

That got me thinking, what qualifies as a unnecessary exhibition of acceleration as long as I dont break the speed limit or wheel spin?

Do they compare my acceleration to the old lady in a morris minor next to me?

Anyone able to elaborate on this a bit?

that is a damned good question. we all know bikes accelerate much faster than cars if you let them.
but does johnny popo know that?

[Ender EnZed]

that is a damned good question. we all know bikes accelerate much faster than cars if you let them.
but does johnny popo know that?

Yes.


what qualifies as a unnecessary exhibition of acceleration as long as I dont break the speed limit or wheel spin?


Whatever the cop decides.

[davereid]

So the boy racer act has this in it You must not operate a motor vehicle in a race or in an unnecessary exhibition of speed or acceleration on a road (unless authorised by law).

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/road/boyracerdetails.html

That got me thinking, what qualifies as a unnecessary exhibition of acceleration as long as I dont break the speed limit or wheel spin?

Do they compare my acceleration to the old lady in a morris minor next to me?

Anyone able to elaborate on this a bit?

This is an attitude test.

The popo can apply it to anything they want. Its not tested by the courts until after the bulk of the penalty is applied, so the police can, and do just use it as a broad brush way of kicking your arse.

I was on a ride, no one was breaking any speed limits, and the police used the "you were racing, do as I say or I will impound your bike" thing, as several of us just wanted to watch a dodgy ticket being given to another non speeding member of our group.


So don't expect a standard, it will be used if you fail the attitude test regardless of your actual driving behavior.

[avgas]

My argument over this went like this;
"That was excessive acceleration"
"No it wasn't"
"Yes it was"
"How long until I hit 50kph?"
"A couple of seconds"
"A couple? Like 2 or 3 or 4?"
"A couple, like 2-3 - you have a bad attitude"
"This bike does 0-100 in 3 seconds, you have stated I did halve that speed in the same time. I can claim that is not excessive - its half of what the manufacturer considers excessive"
....

He then checked everything could on the bike, and me. And let me off on a 'warning'.
I would not recommend my approach - but I had a bad day and was getting pulled over for not doing anything wrong.

[Scuba_Steve]

Stay in speed limits & don't break any other rules & you can't be done for it (the exemption as law)


In this section and in section 96(9), the operation of a motor vehicle in a particular manner is authorised by law if,—
(a) in the case of a race or an exhibition of speed or acceleration,—
(i) the speed of the vehicle is within the applicable speed limit or speed limits; and
(ii) the vehicle operator does not contravene any enactment other than this section that applies in relation to the operation of the vehicle;

[davereid]

Stay in speed limits & don't break any other rules & you can't be done for it (the exemption as law)

But the bulk of the penalty is applied BEFORE guilt is proven.

Therefore if the Popo alleges it happened, then you wear the penalty.

Subsequently proving you didn't do it will be of little value.

[5150]

They can't charge you if they can't catch you :innocent::whistle:

[HenryDorsetCase]

But the bulk of the penalty is applied BEFORE guilt is proven.

Therefore if the Popo alleges it happened, then you wear the penalty.

Subsequently proving you didn't do it will be of little value.

yep. Its fascism in action. but being Kiwis we're all like "Yeah, nah, its OK, you only have to worry about that if you're a boi ricer and they're scum" All it takes is a difference of opinion and the full force of the knee of the state lands in the scrotum of the oppressed public. A subsequent (Court) review and being found unguilty is not cool.

its way too subjective.

Any of the po po round here want to give us a heads up on what is, and is not "necessary" in this context?

[SMOKEU]

It's the same as being stung for a noisy exhaust or sustained loss of traction. The cop doesn't need any proof, so it's just their word against yours.

[Winston001]

But the bulk of the penalty is applied BEFORE guilt is proven.

Therefore if the Popo alleges it happened, then you wear the penalty.

Subsequently proving you didn't do it will be of little value.

Not so. Being convicted of the offence is the principle penalty. Following that there is the fine/imprisonment and disqualification.

If you successfully defend the charge = not guilty, you have no conviction, no fine etc. Your vehicle will have been returned to you already (after 28 days) and you will not have to pay the storage charges.

[davereid]

Not so. Being convicted of the offence is the principle penalty.

You may see it that way. But I think losing your vehicle for 28 days is a massive penalty.

Maybe 2000km from home as well.

And the chance of defending a charge that needs no evidence and is based on opinion is small.

[nodrog]

Not so. Being convicted of the offence is the principle penalty. Following that there is the fine/imprisonment and disqualification.

If you successfully defend the charge = not guilty, you have no conviction, no fine etc. Your vehicle will have been returned to you already (after 28 days) and you will not have to pay the storage charges.

So how do you get a rebate for the 28 days loss of licence that has been imposed on yourself for not being guilty?

[Winston001]

Its unclear in this thread but probably the big issue is a police officer's ability to impound a vehicle immediately for 28 days. However there are levels of appeal by the vehicle owner (eg. stolen etc)

"The owner of the vehicle can appeal to the Police against the impoundment on certain grounds. The grounds are that:



The owner did not know or could not be expected to know that the operator of the vehicle would contravene the prohibition on racing, etc;
The owner took all reasonable steps to prevent the operator of the vehicle from contravening the prohibition on racing, etc.
The impounded vehicle was a stolen or converted vehicle at the time of the seizure and impoundment; or
The enforcement officer who seized the vehicle did not have reasonable grounds to believe that the operator of the vehicle was contravening the prohibition on racing, etc; or did not comply with the prescribed notice requirements.


If the Police do not allow the appeal, the owner of the vehicle can appeal to the Court."

The law came into force in 2003 yet there don't seem to be any significant cases on it which suggests the police use their discretion appropriately most of the time.

[davereid]

The law came into force in 2003 yet there don't seem to be any significant cases on it which suggests the police use their discretion appropriately most of the time.

I have enjoyed that discretion. A rider we were with was pulled over and was getting a ticket for a speeding offence we knew he didn't do as he was with us.

We pulled over to watch.

The cop said piss off.

We said nah free country.

He said nah, not free country, I'll impound all your bikes for racing if you aren't gone in ten seconds. We went.

[FJRider]

The law came into force in 2003 yet there don't seem to be any significant cases on it which suggests the police use their discretion appropriately most of the time.

... and those charged with those offences ... know it was justified. Unhappy about it and whinge like hell to any that might listen ... but "a fair cop" none the less ...

Those that get charged with that offence, have the opportunity to fight it in court.

[SMOKEU]

... and those charged with those offences ... know it was justified. Unhappy about it and whinge like hell to any that might listen ... but "a fair cop" none the less ...

Those that get charged with that offence, have the opportunity to fight it in court.

No, it's not justified. It's just another way for the corrupt government to turn ordinary people into criminals.

[Zedder]

I have enjoyed that discretion. A rider we were with was pulled over and was getting a ticket for a speeding offence we knew he didn't do as he was with us.

We pulled over to watch.

The cop said piss off.

We said nah free country.

He said nah, not free country, I'll impound all your bikes for racing if you aren't gone in ten seconds. We went.

Was it a case of multiple witnesses against one cop?

[sugilite]

I'm guessing if you bury the throttle so hard your rear tyre is ripping stone chips off the road smashing the following popo's flashing lights, that would be deemed excessive. Though I may be worng. :facepalm:

[BoristheBiter]

I have enjoyed that discretion. A rider we were with was pulled over and was getting a ticket for a speeding offence we knew he didn't do as he was with us.

We pulled over to watch.

The cop said piss off.

We said nah free country.

He said nah, not free country, I'll impound all your bikes for racing if you aren't gone in ten seconds. We went.

You're just lucky he didn't turn around and give you all a ticket as if you were riding as a group then you would have all been doing the same speed, therefor all get a ticket.
That's one reason not to stop with your mates, stop down the road and walk back.

[FJRider]

No, it's not justified. It's just another way for the corrupt government to turn ordinary people into criminals.

A Criminal ??? ... :killingme You delude yourself ... A court conviction on a Criminal matter will see your overseas travel plans restricted somewhat.

A court conviction on a Traffic Offence will not. (Unless jail time is involved)

[schrodingers cat]

What a twit. Didn't you see the cop?
If you did then well done. Poor decision making not to ride like Nana
If you didn't then double fuck you.

Pay the bill, learn your lesson and play the game next time.

[rastuscat]

It's the same as being stung for a noisy exhaust or sustained loss of traction. The cop doesn't need any proof, so it's just their word against yours.

Huh? I've missed something. Can I just randomly stop cars and dish tickets out for noise? I actually thought I had to wait until a noisy vehicle comes along. Subjectively noisy yes, but noisier than when it came out of the factory.

Damn, no wonder I've never had a performance cash bonus for meeting my quota.

But then, I've only been doing it for 24 years, what do I know?

Harumph.

[FJRider]

Huh? I've missed something. Can I just randomly stop cars and dish tickets out for noise? I actually thought I had to wait until a noisy vehicle comes along. Subjectively noisy yes, but noisier than when it came out of the factory.

Damn, no wonder I've never had a performance cash bonus for meeting my quota.

But then, I've only been doing it for 24 years, what do I know?

Harumph.

You are an Enforcer ... One of the most trusted (once) professions in Godzone.

You can stop them for no reason at all ... remember ... ???

It must be all that sugar in the donuts ... (or age) ... can you get them sugar free ... ???

[rastuscat]

(or age) ... can you get them sugar free ... ???

Sugar free..........why would ya?

I'm not some gutless bleeding heart tree hugging liberal whale saver.

Land rights for gay whales, I say, AND FULL SUGAR donuts..........sniff.............:banana:

[mossy1200]

Im safe my bikes only got 88 hp. Its only capable of "laughable exhibition of moderate speed or slight acceleration on a road"

[The End]

What qualifies?

In my book it'd be accelerating too quickly so that you could not come to a stop if you had to do so quickly.

If you can go 0-50 and back to 0 without endangering yourself or others then I don't see why you'd get a ticket. Hell, I saw a guy on a Sv650 the other day pull off the lights doing a wheelie. No cops around though... :scooter:

[gammaguy]

No, it's not justified. It's just another way for the corrupt government to turn ordinary people into criminals.

it works kinda like this.....

boy racers are mainly white trash and dont vote,or if they do its likely to be for the all night party or some similar bullshit who never will get into parliament.

The people they piss off are by definition property owners and taxpayers....voters in other words

so who do you think the government are going to look after?

[Scuba_Steve]

it works kinda like this.....

boy racers are mainly decent young to middle aged adults who enjoy motor vehicles, pay taxes and vote

The people they piss off are by definition usually the whiners that tend also to be property owners and taxpayers....voters in other words

so who do you think the government are going to look after? Answer, neither they will only ever look after themselves

Seems your a bit ignorant on the issue (probably listening to the propaganda machine too much), so I have edited for you :yes:

[avgas]

No, it's not justified. It's just another way for the corrupt government to turn ordinary people into criminals.

Welcome to NZ. Our prisons are full so we have stopped sending the crims there.
So statistically speaking, many ordinary people in NZ are technically crims.

[gammaguy]

Seems your a bit ignorant on the issue (probably listening to the propaganda machine too much), so I have edited for you :yes:

thats an oxymoron

once edited by anyone other than the person that said it first,it is no longer a quote.

FAIL

[BoristheBiter]

Seems your a bit ignorant on the issue (probably listening to the propaganda machine too much), so I have edited for you :yes:

lets have a think about that:facepalm:
262312

[Flip]

This was a boi racer law so it only applies to them. Don't you know anything?:innocent:

If you feel the need to accelerate from 0-50 in 2 - 3 seconds you are going to stick out like dogs balls, why because not many other vehicles on the road can do that rate of acceleration. The Rozza are only human if you paint a target on your ass they are going to stick a donut on it:yes:.

[Scuba_Steve]

thats an oxymoron

once edited by anyone other than the person that said it first,it is no longer a quote.

FAIL

But it never said it was a quote, only "originally posted by" giving credit to it's originator. I just sent it through editing.


lets have a think about that:facepalm:
262312

Hey Kettle hows da crane business???

[SMOKEU]

Huh? I've missed something. Can I just randomly stop cars and dish tickets out for noise? I actually thought I had to wait until a noisy vehicle comes along. Subjectively noisy yes, but noisier than when it came out of the factory.

Damn, no wonder I've never had a performance cash bonus for meeting my quota.

But then, I've only been doing it for 24 years, what do I know?

Harumph.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/warrants-certifications/getting-wof/noise.html

"By law the noise coming from your exhaust system must be similar to or less than the noise it made when your vehicle was manufactured. Two exceptions are where:

the noise the exhaust emits is still well below legal noise limits
An Objective Noise Test proves the noise doesn’t exceed the legal noise limits."

If you 3T a vehicle, and in your opinion the exhaust is "too loud", you can give an infringement notice to the driver/rider and issue the vehicle with a green sticker. You are not required to have any equipment to test the exhaust noise with, so it's simply a matter of your opinion.

What is excessively noisy to one person may be acceptable to another. If I get stopped with my aftermarket exhaust, how can I prove it's not too loud? I could get the exhaust certified, but then how could I prove that I haven't modified the exhaust to make it noisier after it has been certified? I bet that many, if not most aftermarket bike exhausts are actually over the legal limit. I once had a car tested at an exhaust shop with their noise tester in accordance with NZTA regulations, and that came out at 96dB.

I got a mate of mine to drive past me while I was standing on the side of the road and the car was certainly a lot quieter than any Yoshimura pipe I've heard fitted to a bike. I got stopped in that car several times and only received an infringement notice for a noisy exhaust once, the rest of the time the exhaust wasn't even mentioned. I guess that in the opinion of those officers, the exhaust clearly wasn't excessively loud.

I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, and even though I don't know you personally I'm sure that you have a good sense of judgement and aren't out there to ticket people just for the hell of it.

[BoristheBiter]

Hey Kettle hows da crane business???

Good thanks pot.

See that tin foil lasted a long time. good quality:niceone:

[Ender EnZed]

This was a boi racer law so it only applies to them. Don't you know anything?:innocent:

If you feel the need to accelerate from 0-50 in 2 - 3 seconds you are going to stick out like dogs balls, why because not many other vehicles on the road can do that rate of acceleration. The Rozza are only human if you paint a target on your ass they are going to stick a donut on it:yes:.

Actually, I'd say you're closer to the mark with the first paragraph than the second.

On the Hutt motorway(ish) here in Wellington there are a bunch of sets of traffic lights on a 4 lane 100km/h road. I've filtered to front of the queue next to marked and unmarked cop cars plenty of times and I never spend more than 3 seconds getting to 50.

[Asher]

Theres always the cagers that take offense to your filtering and try and take off faster than you, i often take off fast to get out in front of them and would defiantly get to 50 in less than 3 secs which i think is safer than fucking around with some idiot being a dick head around you

[Flip]

Theres always the cagers that take offense to your filtering and try and take off faster than you, i often take off fast to get out in front of them and would defiantly get to 50 in less than 3 secs which i think is safer than fucking around with some idiot being a dick head around you

This is exactly the time you get pinged for excessive bla bla bla street racing.

[Ender EnZed]

This is exactly the time you get pinged for excessive bla bla bla street racing.

Again, in my experience, only if you look like a boy racer.

[Asher]

Again, in my experience, only if you look like a boy racer.

So i should paint my helmet pink and wear a womans wig?

[sinned]

I've been internalizing a really complicated situation in my head - will a cop book me for excessive acceleration if I use <50% throttle and reach 100kph before any other vehicle has even crossed the intersection leaving traffic lights on an open road. SH2 Hutt valley. :innocent:

[davebullet]

So "racing" - does that imply there must be another vehicle you are racing against?

I got warned for a quick launch and decided to slow to 70kph to let the officer past. I couldn't pull over where I was (no shoulder) so mr. officer let me off and carried on.

[GrayWolf]

Im safe my bikes only got 88 hp. Its only capable of "laughable exhibition of moderate speed or slight acceleration on a road"

hahahha then enjoy this vid Mossy.. its only a stage 1 tune...akrapovic pipes and K&N airfilter

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_QbYOcoALM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm8xy-n58Ts


www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQoG9NwL9K8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEuS77shPMg

and for others watching,, the standard bikes top speed is 205kph... which puts into perspective the performance against other bikes on the tracks in the BRNO circuit and following the sprot bike round the french GP track.

[FJRider]

I've been internalizing a really complicated situation in my head - will a cop book me for excessive acceleration if I use <50% throttle and reach 100kph before any other vehicle has even crossed the intersection leaving traffic lights on an open road. SH2 Hutt valley. :innocent:

A simple formula to figure it out. Can he ... or WILL he ??? :pinch:

Chances are he won't ... unless he can add "A sustained loss of traction" onto the ticket. Or there is a lot of traffic or pedestrians about. OR ... he feels like it ... :facepalm:

Enter "Murphys Law" into the equasion ... and the one time you dont want to chat to the plod ... <_<

[p.dath]

I have enjoyed that discretion. A rider we were with was pulled over and was getting a ticket for a speeding offence we knew he didn't do as he was with us.

We pulled over to watch.

The cop said piss off.

We said nah free country.

He said nah, not free country, I'll impound all your bikes for racing if you aren't gone in ten seconds. We went.

Would have been a great time to flip out a camera phone, and say "Lucky this is a public place". :lol:

[p.dath]

...That got me thinking, what qualifies as a unnecessary exhibition of acceleration as long as I dont break the speed limit or wheel spin?


I think an important word in this is "exhibition".

I would think that unless there was an audience, that you might find proving their was an exhibition was difficult.

[scumdog]

The law came into force in 2003 yet there don't seem to be any significant cases on it which suggests the police use their discretion appropriately most of the time.

Stop trying to add truth and logic to a KB thread...

[Coldrider]

I think an important word in this is "exhibition".

I would think that unless there was an audience, that you might find proving their was an exhibition was difficult.If a donut muncher has seen it, it has been exhibited.

[FJRider]

If a donut muncher has seen it, it has been exhibited.

Even if he only believed he saw it ... <_<

[RDJ]

... and those charged with those offences ... know it was justified. Unhappy about it and whinge like hell to any that might listen ... but "a fair cop" none the less ...

Those that get charged with that offence, have the opportunity to fight it in court.

ALSO known as - those that get charged with the offence can take the opportunity to pay for justice... and likely lose. Because the default mode for riders as far as the 'authorites' are concerned, is guilty.

[cheshirecat]

Im safe my bikes only got 88 hp. Its only capable of "laughable exhibition of moderate speed or slight acceleration on a road"
You can't talk of slight acceleration unless you've owned a landrover

[DrunkenMistake]

...or sustained loss of traction. The cop doesn't need any proof, so it's just their word against yours.

I have actually had a case where I was pulled over and told by the cop that he heard my tyre squeal and he was wanking on about issuing me a ticket for it,
I cant say I have ever heard of multi compound tyres squeezing, I know I have dumped the clutch from a stand still at high revs and thats just poped the front up, but what do I know, I ride a Hyo.


........ how can I prove it's not too loud? .....
Just do a skid you soft cock.

So i should paint my helmet pink and wear a womans wig?

There is a fat fella riding about with a Fluorescent pink oldschool 70's looking helmet, he wears that, a tshirt and track pants,
Oh and he rides an R1.

http://img1.etsystatic.com/il_fullxfull.274331469.jpg

[MIZXR]

Huh? I've missed something. Can I just randomly stop cars and dish tickets out for noise? I actually thought I had to wait until a noisy vehicle comes along. Subjectively noisy yes, but noisier than when it came out of the factory.

Damn, no wonder I've never had a performance cash bonus for meeting my quota.

But then, I've only been doing it for 24 years, what do I know?

Harumph.

If the vehicle goes and gets tested and passes - mine - then yes it is random, unless you want to refund the cost? I'll accept it was a mistake then not just a way to cost me money. Subjective ha means I wanted to in the cop dictionary.

I do have a question though, How come I watched your old police pr lady pass me on yellow lines while speeding, then try to push me off the road when she realized her car wasn't quick enough? I was letting her passed untill I saw who it was. Then I realized that speeding is safe and she was lying on tv.

[scumdog]

I do have a question though, How come I watched your old police pr lady pass me on yellow lines while speeding, then try to push me off the road when she realized her car wasn't quick enough? I was letting her passed untill I saw who it was. Then I realized that speeding is safe and she was lying on tv.

Why don't you ask HER??

Ya ain't gunna get an answer on KB (Well not a sensible one!)

[MIZXR]

I tried but she wouldn't stop. :laugh:. I dont normally have that much of an issue when I see you guys over the speed limit but that was too much. Most of you guys seem to do a good job but it must be hard to keep a straight face when giving out a speeding ticket if your one of them.

Excessive accleration and wheelspin laws have been around for a while before the boy racer bill but if your tyres squeal, the body or front wheel lift or you break traction or you are two car lenghts in front over a very short area, you are already aware your doing something wrong so if you get caught pay your bill and get over it. A few years later you'll laugh about it and realize you were silly.

Years before I got ticketed for excessive acceleration while stationary a good hour after I did it - move your bike/ car from the end of the black mark, his words - best explaination for how to spin your rear wheel I've ever heard but he wouldn't demostrate. Half an hour later he was back telling us a mate had driven over the edge and one was on his way to hospital.

They have a hard job to do so why make it worse if you know its wrong, just shut up and pay up. In saying that the older I get the lectures I got given had more effect than the tickets.

[superman]

I hear if you accelerate to 88mph quick enough it's impossible to be ticketed due to the unavoidable activation of the flux capacitor.

[brp]

Pulling more than 2G usually constitutes a ticket

[onearmedbandit]

Seems your a bit ignorant on the issue (probably listening to the propaganda machine too much), so I have edited for you :yes:

I work in the car industry, currently for a yard that used to specialise in performance cars. We still get lots of clients coming in for those types of cars. Now in my time I've seen two types of client interested in this type of vehicle. Firstly there is your 'motoring enthusiast'. This type appreciate performance vehicles, enjoy modifying them and driving them. They do so in a reasonable manner. They arrive in their Type-R/Evo/WRX STi/GTR at a moderate speed, speak with intelligence and wear their clothing as it was designed. When they leave in their nicely presented cars they drive off at a normal speed. The second type arrive in their Integra 1.6/non-turbo Lancer/old rough WRX/Skyline GTS-t/Maxima/Cefiro/Vigor/(pretty much whatever they could afford at the time) at 100mph. They walk around the yard like they own the place, shoulders swaying and speak a strange type of language involving grunts and chuckles at their equally unintelligent mates comments. They also have little understanding of how clothing was intended to be worn. Once they've established that none of the cars we have are as quick as theirs, they leave 'chirping' the front or rear wheels or abusing the clutch/gearbox of their lowered, panel damaged big bore exhaust equipped WRX that hasn't seen a service in 30,000km and hasn't had a cambelt change in 150,000km.

No propaganda machine at work there, well with the exception of their own.

[scumdog]

I work in the car industry, currently for a yard that used to specialise in performance cars. We still get lots of clients coming in for those types of cars. Now in my time I've seen two types of client interested in this type of vehicle. Firstly there is your 'motoring enthusiast'. This type appreciate performance vehicles, enjoy modifying them and driving them. They do so in a reasonable manner. They arrive in their Type-R/Evo/WRX STi/GTR at a moderate speed, speak with intelligence and wear their clothing as it was designed. When they leave in their nicely presented cars they drive off at a normal speed. The second type arrive in their Integra 1.6/non-turbo Lancer/old rough WRX/Skyline GTS-t/Maxima/Cefiro/Vigor/(pretty much whatever they could afford at the time) at 100mph. They walk around the yard like they own the place, shoulders swaying and speak a strange type of language involving grunts and chuckles at their equally unintelligent mates comments. They also have little understanding of how clothing was intended to be worn. Once they've established that none of the cars we have are as quick as theirs, they leave 'chirping' the front or rear wheels or abusing the clutch/gearbox of their lowered, panel damaged big bore exhaust equipped WRX that hasn't seen a service in 30,000km and hasn't had a cambelt change in 150,000km.

No propaganda machine at work there, well with the exception of their own.

Nicely put!:niceone:

[Swoop]

So how do you get a rebate for the 28 days loss of licence that has been imposed on yourself for not being guilty?
Quite simple. They issue a credit note.


Sugar free..........why would ya?

I'm not some gutless bleeding heart tree hugging liberal whale saver.

Land rights for gay whales, I say, AND FULL SUGAR donuts..........sniff.............:banana:
You're not one of these whimpy "full sugar only" types?:facepalm:
DOUBLE sugar! Sprinkle sugar (from the coffee supply) onto the top of your donut for an extra hit of goodness!:woohoo:


:rofl: