Real road racers. The TT yesteryear and today [Archive]

View Full Version : Real road racers. The TT yesteryear and today

GrayWolf

23rd April 2012, 14:52

I know that we have many discussions and arguments here about bike handling, and cornering techniques.
This may have been posted before but I just wanted to demonstrate that the current trend of climbing all over the bike and sticking the knee out is not the 'only way' to ride fast.
Three of these clips are of Mike (the bike) Hailwood, Historically argueably the greatest TT racer of all time, the other contender is Agostini. One also features Phil Read.. another all time great at the TT. The clips of Mike when Older was when he came out of several years retirement from bike racing, and won the Senior TT on the Ducati.. a feat No other rider has ever accomplished. The 'promo' clip shows that he was riding against full blown japanese race bikes on the Duc, Its the rider, not the machine. The last Hialwood clip is considered one of the greatest classic TT races of all time... Hailwood Vs Agostini on MV Augusta's
The other is of the 2010 TT.... please take note of the horrendous 'off' about 90 seconds into the clip.... its a graphic example of why us old farts say that roads are not for 'racing' on as so many riders think they are.

Enjoy :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=r4ecLoo2BXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKPvwFY9uE&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXnudz2V_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUqgsykSsuo&feature=relmfu

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=33

Maha

23rd April 2012, 16:49

Beautiful...open faced helmets/no knee down for those boys in the early days, just grip and go.

slofox

23rd April 2012, 17:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=r4ecLoo2BXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKPvwFY9uE&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXnudz2V_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUqgsykSsuo&feature=relmfu

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=33

Sooooo...which link is to the 2010 event?

Oakie

23rd April 2012, 18:58

the current trend of climbing all over the bike and sticking the knee out is not the 'only way' to ride fast.

How fast was fast though. I mean what speed was he doing compared to the modern-day knee-down acrobats? Seriously, what speeds was he doing ...I have no idea and can't be arsed looking it up.

gatch

23rd April 2012, 19:35

I'd put money on the legends of old being faster, if they had of "climbed all over the bike".

300weatherby

23rd April 2012, 20:01

GrayWolf

23rd April 2012, 20:30

Sooooo...which link is to the 2010 event?

apologies Slofox.... didnt get the link correct.. see below. shows a spectacular off, over a drop running beside the road.
about 1.25mins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tewwW2IxUEY

GrayWolf

23rd April 2012, 21:05

You tellin me that Bruce Ansty is slow and ungainly?, or maybe Cam Donald is, or maybe Guy Martin - Would Rossi solve his Ducati problem by emulating Aggo ( Rossi's very own hero...).

Each generation is doing thing differently to the previous one, it's called evoluotion. Direct comparason can never happen because you can never recreate circumstance. Mike the Bike was the man, but not now, the same will happen 30 yrs from now, the current best will be judged with a different yard stick to now. Would the 74 All Blacks beat the Current All Blacks? they do, after all play the same game.

Evolution doesnt always mean going forwards, evolution is full of 'dead end' sub species... I agree the game of rugby has changed, so have the bikes compared to those days... so we have better tyres (and wider) better brakes, etc etc....
however regardless of machinery talent is critical. I watched the interview when Rossi went round the circuit behind Aggo,,, he admitted the circuit scared him, "you need very different skills and 'much bravery'".. road circuits are different to race tracks, that's why the TT has killed so many riders over the years.

And a good example of modern Vs old..... The golden era of heavyweight boxing... now which of the modern day specimens
would you put in a ring against, Ali, Fraser, Forman in their prime?? As even Tyson and Ali agreed in an interview.. Ali said "One hit and I'd be asleep".. Tyson's response was " but I'd have to catch him standing still first".
As an aside John Surtees was up until very recently still riding clubman circuit and competitive riding in the 'old style'. I was very privileged to watch Ivan Mauger at the Inaugural World Speedway champs in Invercargill in the late 1990's... he and his great Aussie rival did a few laps,,, and Ivan was only about 2 seconds off the pace of the current world class riders in his 60's.. His Legendary smooth style of riding still cut the mustard.

and the speeds set back then on machines with vastly inferior suspension and brakes?
1978 TT Hailwood 110 mph (Formula One), Read 113, and overall highest speed was pat herron at 114mph... so Mike was within 20mph of the current machinery.
And he won the Senior the next year as well, 1978 was after 10 years of retirement.... So I would put Mike and Ago' as the Ali/Fraser's of the bike world.
Hailwoods 1967 TT lap record was 107mph...1965 honda win was at 105mph. I believe the current fasted lap ever is 131mph.
http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database.aspx

interestingly if you watch the 2011 link in response to slofox's post re incorrect link? There isn't much climbing all over the bike going on.

and heres a 5 minute clip of Steve Plater on a 130mph lap (Ramsey Hairpin to Creg ny Baa in Less than 5 minutes!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnTvfap4fo

unstuck

23rd April 2012, 21:09

Awesome clips, cheers.:niceone:

Laava

23rd April 2012, 21:12

apologies Slofox.... didnt get the link correct.. I'll re look it up. shows a spectacular off, over a drop running beside the road.

This one?..............

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y07yt87lhEA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

300weatherby

23rd April 2012, 21:57

Evolution doesnt always mean going forwards, evolution is full of 'dead end' sub species... I agree the game of rugby has changed, so have the bikes compared to those days... so we have better tyres (and wider) better brakes, etc etc....
however regardless of machinery talent is critical. I watched the interview when Rossi went round the circuit behind Aggo,,, he admitted the circuit scared him, "you need very different skills and 'much bravery'".. road circuits are different to race tracks, that's why the TT has killed so many riders over the years.

And a good example of modern Vs old..... The golden era of heavyweight boxing... now which of the modern day specimens
would you put in a ring against, Ali, Fraser, Forman in their prime?? As even Tyson and Ali agreed in an interview.. Ali said "One hit and I'd be asleep".. Tyson's response was " but I'd have to catch him standing still first".
As an aside John Surtees was up until very recently still riding clubman circuit and competitive riding in the 'old style'. I was very privileged to watch Ivan Mauger at the Inaugural World Speedway champs in Invercargill in the late 1990's... he and his great Aussie rival did a few laps,,, and Ivan was only about 2 seconds off the pace of the current world class riders in his 60's.. His Legendary smooth style of riding still cut the mustard.

and the speeds set back then on machines with vastly inferior suspension and brakes?
1978 TT Hailwood 110 mph (Formula One), Read 113, and overall highest speed was pat herron at 114mph... so Mike was within 20mph of the current machinery.
And he won the Senior the next year as well, 1978 was after 10 years of retirement.... So I would put Mike and Ago' as the Ali/Fraser's of the bike world.
Hailwoods 1967 TT lap record was 107mph...1965 honda win was at 105mph. I believe the current fasted lap ever is 131mph.
http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database.aspx

interestingly if you watch the 2011 link in response to slofox's post re incorrect link? There isn't much climbing all over the bike going on.

and heres a 5 minute clip of Steve Plater on a 130mph lap (Ramsey Hairpin to Creg ny Baa in Less than 5 minutes!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnTvfap4fo

I'll agree some guys over do it and you could practically stick a second bike in there, but I couldn't comprehend not moving around the bike to help reduce lean angle and manipulate suspension and or tyre loading front or rear- we all do what we think works for us, right or wrong. Love the vids.

slofox

24th April 2012, 08:16

apologies Slofox.... didnt get the link correct.. see below. shows a spectacular off, over a drop running beside the road.
about 1.25mins

Thanks GrayWolf.

eliot-ness

24th April 2012, 09:42

As an aside John Surtees was up until very recently still riding clubman circuit and competitive riding in the 'old style'.

I would suggest that comparisons between the 60s and modern styles of riding are impossible. Top speeds in the 60s were limited more by inferior tires and atrocious road surface than power and handling. The huge advances in Japanese bikes, with their huge power output but inferior road holding required a new style of riding in order to be competitive, then, as tires and suspension improved, the difference between winning and and losing became a matter of split seconds per lap, and style is the last thing a rider has to think about

So, a question for you old timers. Who was the first rider to hang off the bike in order win a world championship? You may be surprised.

manxkiwi

24th April 2012, 10:29

[QUOTE=GrayWolf;1130309130]and the speeds set back then on machines with vastly inferior suspension and brakes?
1978 TT Hailwood 110 mph (Formula One), Read 113, and overall highest speed was pat herron at 114mph... so Mike was within 20mph of the current machinery.
And he won the Senior the next year as well, 1978 was after 10 years of retirement.... So I would put Mike and Ago' as the Ali/Fraser's of the bike world.
Hailwoods 1967 TT lap record was 107mph...1965 honda win was at 105mph. I believe the current fasted lap ever is 131mph.
http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database.aspx

The increase in lap speed is exponential though. It's ok to say they were within 20mph 30 years ago. It took 20 years to get from a 100mph lap to a 110mph lap. I'm not knocking anything and believe they're all incredible riders of course. Just saying the difference between 130mph lap and 131mph lap is considerably more than 129mph to 130mph.

Did you mean Pat Hennen (USA) or Tom Herron (IRL)?

BTW: 32 days and counting.......

merv

24th April 2012, 13:14

So, a question for you old timers. Who was the first rider to hang off the bike in order win a world championship? You may be surprised.

Jarno Saarinen is my guess, while Kenny Roberts is credited for making it a regular thing.

GrayWolf

24th April 2012, 14:51

I would suggest that comparisons between the 60s and modern styles of riding are impossible. Top speeds in the 60s were limited more by inferior tires and atrocious road surface than power and handling. The huge advances in Japanese bikes, with their huge power output but inferior road holding required a new style of riding in order to be competitive, then, as tires and suspension improved, the difference between winning and and losing became a matter of split seconds per lap, and style is the last thing a rider has to think about

So, a question for you old timers. Who was the first rider to hang off the bike in order win a world championship? You may be surprised.

I would agree about the evolution of bikes for power etc, as you are probably aware Hailwood's martini Yamaha's were not reliable the year he rode the Duc to win the Formula 1 TT, so sadly we never saw what he might have achieved on them.
What my original intention was/is to demonstrate that the current philosophy of climbing all over the bike is what I would call 'track riding. On a predictable surface with direct vision around the curves. If you watch the 2010/2011 TT laps one thing that is obvious is there is very little movement around the bike by riders in the superbike, Senior, Formula 1 (GP) classes. Again I'l point out Rossi admitted the IoM needs a different skill for riding. it is a 60km track which you cannot remember every little bump, braking points etc untill you've ridden it several times. Besides the fact as is seen on any filmed lap from a bike the road surface constantly changes, the cambers alter, the roads narrow etc, etc,,, this is not the surface that track riders generally ride on.
It would seem at least in the case of the IoM, close to the 'old school' riding seems more effective. Maybe because the bends approach so damn fast you do not have time to climb left and right across the bike IDK. I do know having done a Mad Sunday once on what was considered then a good handling bike (RD350LC tuned) it was very 'intense' to hold 'high speed' :killingme:
:lol: over the whole 37 mile circuit.

merv

24th April 2012, 23:02

Not much point getting your knee down when the surface aint going to receive it too well eh!

So was I right with Saarinen?

gatch

25th April 2012, 00:55

I would agree about the evolution of bikes for power etc, as you are probably aware Hailwood's martini Yamaha's were not reliable the year he rode the Duc to win the Formula 1 TT, so sadly we never saw what he might have achieved on them.
What my original intention was/is to demonstrate that the current philosophy of climbing all over the bike is what I would call 'track riding. On a predictable surface with direct vision around the curves. If you watch the 2010/2011 TT laps one thing that is obvious is there is very little movement around the bike by riders in the superbike, Senior, Formula 1 (GP) classes. Again I'l point out Rossi admitted the IoM needs a different skill for riding. it is a 60km track which you cannot remember every little bump, braking points etc untill you've ridden it several times. Besides the fact as is seen on any filmed lap from a bike the road surface constantly changes, the cambers alter, the roads narrow etc, etc,,, this is not the surface that track riders generally ride on.
It would seem at least in the case of the IoM, close to the 'old school' riding seems more effective. Maybe because the bends approach so damn fast you do not have time to climb left and right across the bike IDK. I do know having done a Mad Sunday once on what was considered then a good handling bike (RD350LC tuned) it was very 'intense' to hold 'high speed' :killingme:
:lol: over the whole 37 mile circuit.

I wonder with the isle of man guys.. They "get off the bike" less, because it means less resistance to the passing air ? As they spend a lot of their time at full throttle. Much more so than a short track ? The benefits of leaning off the bike might be rendered moot by the increased resistance.

Would be interesting to know as a comparison the amount of time (as a percentage) spent at full throttle, on say a motogp bike and a TT racer..

eliot-ness

25th April 2012, 09:49

Not much point getting your knee down when the surface aint going to receive it too well eh!

So was I right with Saarinen?

Sorry, much earlier than Saarinen.It was in fact the ultimate stylist, John Surtees on the MV Agusta. The MVs of 1957/58 handled so badly that he reckoned that hanging off the bike was the only way he could get it around the corners. He was heavily involved in the development of a new frame in 1958 and soon went back to the classic, smooth style. A few riders experimented with hanging off the bikes in the early sixties but it was a bit halfhearted and with little success. the Manx Nortons and AJS of that time just weren't designed for it.
I doubt anyone would gain any advantage by hanging off the bike at the IOM. Hailwood proved that, but the IOM, and other true road racing circuits in Ireland, is in a class of its own and no comparison can be made with purpose designed tracks, no matter how long or fast they are.

Manxman

25th April 2012, 22:39

Old style vs new style....dunt matter to me. They ALL have kahunas of steel far as I'm concerned. Imagine riding yer nuts off for nearly two hours straight. Not easy in 1960, Not easy in 2012.

ducatilover

25th April 2012, 23:25

I wonder with the isle of man guys.. They "get off the bike" less, because it means less resistance to the passing air ? As they spend a lot of their time at full throttle. Much more so than a short track ? The benefits of leaning off the bike might be rendered moot by the increased resistance.

Would be interesting to know as a comparison the amount of time (as a percentage) spent at full throttle, on say a motogp bike and a TT racer..

They're off the bike on every corner that they're pushing the limits of grip usually. If they're not off it, they're going fuck-fast without max lean angles. :first:

SPman

26th April 2012, 01:25

The only way to tell who would bequickest is to have the modern riders cane the old bikes and vice versa.........now that would be interesting......I believe Hailwood reckoned the 500/4 Honda was an absolute pig, but he still got around pretty quick on it......

Grumph

26th April 2012, 07:10

Surtees admitted shifting his weight inwards on corners to better control the MV while drifting it in the mid 60's....

I don't think riding technique has changed that much - at least since WW2. The really talented guys would still come out top in any era because they ride each bike on it's merits and do what has to be done to get it round corners quickly - often on pure instinct.

The bikes of the 50's and 60's didn't encorage a lot of body movement because that would often set off chassis weaves...believe me frames have come a long way. Even in the 70's tyres were better enough that you could get a Manx flexing badly. Tidy was the only way to feel comfortable.

Premature Accelerato

26th April 2012, 08:12

It would be interesting to know how they got the film footage. In the first clip, given the technology of the day, wouldnt the riders view of the track been obscured by an particularly large hand cranked camera. View from the back must have had a pillion on the back, just curious. Would have been an awesome rider to win a GP with a pillion along for the ride.

tbs

26th April 2012, 16:52

I've got the TT Closer to the Edge DVD at home. The bonus disk has a segment with Milky Quayle driving a car around the circuit discussing how to ride it. On the tight corners he talks about touching the knee down, and on the tight corner complexes (ie right left right) he refers to climbing back over the bike. In some places it would seem the hang off the bike style is used. The course just doesn't let you spend much time with your knee on the ground.

Voltaire

26th April 2012, 17:50

someone should tell Andrew Stroud that Manx Nortons are not for getting your knee down...:msn-wink: things must have improved for the 1962 model...:niceone:
mmmm drum brakes and spoked wheels....a proper motorcycle.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4054/4364075245_695195d169_z.jpg?zz=1
Its more likely the tyres of the day did not allow it.

gatch

26th April 2012, 19:43

That is most likely a mcintosh manx. Chromoly tube frame ?

Either way, it is a fast bike. The old domi I race can't touch it.

Voltaire

26th April 2012, 20:29

That is most likely a mcintosh manx. Chromoly tube frame ?

Either way, it is a fast bike. The old domi I race can't touch it.

I don't think there are many 1962 bits on a McIntosh Manx...
Maybe I could get Andrew to take my R90 for a thrash around Puke....I'm sure he'd beat my 1.23 time....:lol:

Grumph

27th April 2012, 06:42

In the early 70's a guy named Colin Robinson raced a Manx in ChCh - he regularly got his knee down on Ruapuna - being well over six feet tall definitely helped...the legs have to go somewhere. Just look at the pic of similarly tall Stroud...
I never managed it on mine - but I did regularly grind away footrests.

I swear Owen Galbraith got his arse down regularly around the same time and later - he rode an Ariel Arrow then various Kawasakis and hung so far off them all you could see from the outside was a leg and a hand on the bars....

_Shrek_

27th April 2012, 09:11

How fast was fast though. I mean what speed was he doing compared to the modern-day knee-down acrobats? Seriously, what speeds was he doing ...I have no idea and can't be arsed looking it up.

av speed in one I heard 113mph = 185kph aprox & up to 180mph = 300kph aprox PDQ for the time & era

Brett

27th April 2012, 09:57

Old style vs new style....dunt matter to me. They ALL have kahunas of steel far as I'm concerned. Imagine riding yer nuts off for nearly two hours straight. Not easy in 1960, Not easy in 2012.

I'm with you. Took balls and skill in the 60's (and earlier) and still takes massive balls and skills today. Watching that race and those bikes gives me a hard on. Car racing is alright, but when you see how much those bikes move around (thanks goodness for high def camera's!) it highlights the complexities of riding a machines like that right on its limit...and those guys do.