An investigation of motorcycle rider use of and attitudes to high visibility gear

[wsm.highvisresearch]

AN INVESTIGATION OF MOTORCYCLE RIDER USE OF AND ATTITUDES TO HIGH VISIBILITY GEAR INFORMATION
Wellington School of Medicine, University of Otago

As part of this project we are distributing a short electronic survey.
Please first read the information regarding the project found below.
The survey may be found at http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ZJMLCVN


Information for Study Participants
Thank you for showing an interest in this project. Please read this information carefully before deciding whether or not to participate. If you decide to participate we thank you. If you decide not to take part there will be no disadvantage to you and we thank you for considering our request.

What is the Aim of the Project?
The aim is to investigate the current use of and attitudes towards high visibility gear in New Zealand motorcycle riders.

Questions we hope to answer include:
1. What do NZ motorcyclists wear when riding- in particular in terms of high visibility clothing?
2. What are the attitudes of motorcyclists to wearing high visibility clothing?
3. What of the major barriers to the wearing of high visibility clothing, and what can be done to improve this?

What Type of Participants are being sought?

We are looking for motorcycle users (including both motorbike and scooters) to participate. Anybody currently riding a motorcycle in NZ can be included in this study.

What will Participants be Asked to Do?

Should you agree to take part in this project, you will be asked to answer a short survey, taking no longer than 3 minutes.
Please be aware that you may decide not to take part in the project without any disadvantage to yourself of any kind.

What Data or Information will be Collected and What Use will be Made of it?
Your survey, along with the others that participate in this study will all be made anonymous. The data will be collated together to identify the main trends which will then be summarised and written up as a report, and will be available in the University of Otago Library (Wellington, New Zealand).

Completed surveys and associated material will be securely stored (in locked filing cabinets or password protected computers as appropriate) in such a way that only the researchers will be able to gain access to it.

What if Participants have any Questions?
If you have any questions about our project, either now or in the future, please feel free to contact either:-

Sophie Bridge
Department of Public Health
Email Address: wsm.highvisresearch@gmail.com

Dr Richard Jaine
Department of Public Health, University of Otago, Wellington
Phone 04 918 6155
Email: richard.jaine@otago.ac.nz

This study has been approved by the Department stated above. If you have any concerns about the ethical conduct of the research you may contact the Committee through the Human Ethics Committee Administrator (ph 03 479-8256). Any issues you raise will be treated in confidence and investigated and you will be informed of the outcome.

[scumdog]

I reckon I'll have a crack at this.:niceone:

[Madness]

Last question; "It's gay."

[Katman]

My most effective item of high visibility gear?

My eyes.

[willytheekid]

Survey completed :niceone:

Cheers for sharing this with us wsm.highvisresearch :first:

[Oakie]

Done diddly done. Didn't hurt a bit.

[Subike]

Done,
Good to see they came here
Pity only 50% will give the honest answer,
We all know how good KB'rs are at telling bullshit
especially me

[flyingcrocodile46]

I feel cheated. I didn't win a prize :weep:

PS Black on black with FA reflective, happy to look at more reflective materials as part of an off the shelf solution when I next upgrade.

[BMWST?]

pity they miss a complete age range...50-60 ,and who says there are benefits?

[vifferman]

Not well constructed; one of the errors was my age group was missing - should've been between "40-50" and ">60". I had to lie a bit...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Rach and I were driving home in our quite noisey and very bright red Commodore ute the other day.

Some old fucking bat all of a sudden did a quick lane change and near side swipped us.

If only our ute was high vis instead of loud and red it wouldn't have happened.

Tuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiii

[300weatherby]

I reckon I'll have a crack at this.:niceone:

95% of Chch drivers are blind valium soaked retards, you could have a flashing light on your head and it will NOT make any difference.

Chritchurch drivers are the worst in NZ on so many levels, and most of you think it is every one else,- riding my road bike in this town is terrifying and drives me to angry paranioa, then I get to spend lots of time in traffic cause of my job.

1- The least ability to look and actually see.
2- The poorest descision making anywhere after having "looked"
3- The slowest and least decisive action taking anywhere, after having made a decision.

And some uni academic wants people to buy into a study on dayglo vests? So the victims of vehicular attack wear stupid bright vests that make no difference, rather than the "justice" system punish, Adequately! the retards that commit the crime, in order that other vehicularly retarded morons recognise possible consequence and maybe, just maybe try to improve ? good grief:mad:

[BigAl]

I feel cheated. I didn't win a prize :weep:.

Your set of steak knives will be in the post:rolleyes:

[Tigadee]

When orange or yellow is the new black, everyone will be wearing hi-vis! :wari:

[sinfull]

Fuck off !

[James Deuce]

Just to be clear, who is paying for the research?

[flyingcrocodile46]

Fuck off !

I didn't see that option :scratch:

[KiWiP]

3. What of the major barriers to the wearing of high visibility clothing, and what can be done to improve this?


Well this isn't a slanted study at all is it? It's shouting out that high vis needs to be worn. Can anyone direct me to some objective based, statistically backed up research that leads us to believe that high vis will significantly reduce accidents. Such research would take into account experience, age, road conditions, weather conditions etc etc. I don't believe it exists. What I think does exist is a subjective viewpoint of "Oh if they had been wearing bright clothes they would have been seen and wouldn't have been knocked off" In my personal experience when I was knocked off my high vis and bright headlight didn't prevent the driver charging onto the roundabout in front of me, you've got it SMIDSY.

[Gravel Man]

Hi vis is the new black. There is so much in use today no one pays any attention to it. If some one can not see my bright orange bike & head light they are not going pay any atention to any high vis.
Cheers G.M.

[wsm.highvisresearch]

pity they miss a complete age range...50-60 ,and who says there are benefits?

Thank you to members for bringing this problem with the survey to our attention, we will fix this asap.

Also we would like to clarify that this study is not assessing or judging the benefits or disadvantages of wearing high-vis, rather we are gathering public opinion on the subject.

[Ocean1]

Well this isn't a slanted study at all is it? It's shouting out that high vis needs to be worn.

And poorly constructed even as a tool for that end.

Surprisingly unprofesional in fact, clumsy.

[Katman]

My biggest concern over making hi-vis compulsory is the false sense of security it is likely to lull many wearers into.

Training motorcyclists to really use their eyes and their brain would be far more benificial.

[sinfull]

Well this isn't a slanted study at all is it? It's shouting out that high vis needs to be worn. Can anyone direct me to some objective based, statistically backed up research that leads us to believe that high vis will significantly reduce accidents. Such research would take into account experience, age, road conditions, weather conditions etc etc. I don't believe it exists. What I think does exist is a subjective viewpoint of "Oh if they had been wearing bright clothes they would have been seen and wouldn't have been knocked off" In my personal experience when I was knocked off my high vis and bright headlight didn't prevent the driver charging onto the roundabout in front of me, you've got it SMIDSY.
I don't wear hi viz and nor do i get knocked off !

Smidsy ? Yeah sure if you insist, they are out there ! But no more then there were 30 years ago !

I say what katman says, open your fucking eyes ppl !!!! There are hazzards out there at every bend, side street, roundabout, driveway, hell, they're even right there on your own bike, the moment you hop on it without taking the time to check the little things like pads, tyre pressures, head bearings, shall i go on ? And no one is looking for them, they blindly bolt off into the sunset going i'm ok jack, if i crash it must be some other cunt's fault !

Jesus, i must be ok cause i don't even (cant even) fit in to this survey lol opps too old or not old enough you choose !

Hi viz be fucked, pin a tail on me and call me a weazel cause i'm a cunning old fox and know that if i get fucked up, it will be me that fucks up !
Not the fact that some other fuck never saw me, for fucks sake the fucker never new i existed till he heard me !

Loud pipes save lives !!!!!!!!!!

As does education ! the new licencing system goes nowhere to help the problem ! With both car or M/C licences !
Full on driving/riding courses are the way to go !
Put that in your survey and smoke it !

[koba]

Also we would like to clarify that this study is not assessing or judging the benefits or disadvantages of wearing high-vis, rather we are gathering public opinion on the subject.

Right, but the first post treats that as a forgone conclusion.

I would say the opinion you receive is likely to be very tainted by the negative connotations that brings about.

[koba]

Training motorcyclists to really use their eyes and their brain would be far more benificial.

And car drivers... Oh, shit, maybe that's asking to much.

[koba]

I don't wear hi viz and nor do i get knocked off !


Riding a pushbike around at night is instant death too...

[Madness]

Also we would like to clarify that this study is not assessing or judging the benefits or disadvantages of wearing high-vis, rather we are gathering public opinion on the subject.

The judgement has been made already. This is lip service.

My opinion? It's Gay.

[Katman]

And car drivers... Oh, shit, maybe that's asking to much.

It's far easier changing one's own habits and attitude than trying to change others.

[koba]

It's far easier changing one's own habits and attitude than trying to change others.

Absolutely, especially stupid people.

On the Hi Viz thing; isn't opinion on the matter already shown by habits? People who think it is good will be buying and wearing it, wont they?

[sinfull]

It's far easier changing one's own habits and attitude than trying to change others. Best thread for ages but i digress


Why the fuck not courses for car drivers ! Jebus man in europe you have to earn a bloody good income to get a licence it's so expensive to get one !

They have a system in place where only the quick witted drive ! Dont say that's not what we need here ! I say we do ! Drag half the drivers off the road and to be honest from what i've seen in the last wee while 2/3rds of the m/c riders !

2 strikes you resit ! (if you're lucky enough to survive)

[koba]

2 strikes you resit ! (if you're lucky enough to survive)

I've long said a huge, nasty spike on the steering wheel would be the best safety device possible, better than any number of airbags.

I'm quite serious, do think about it. (Not directed at you sinfull, just a general comment on your point)

[sinfull]

I've long said a huge, nasty spike on the steering wheel would be the best safety device possible, better than any number of airbags.

I'm quite serious, do think about it. (Not directed at you sinfull, just a general comment on your point)
Of course, i agree haha even cackle at the thought !

Know i'd play gentle !

[rustic101]

Done. I'd actually be keen to participate more in this.

[mashman]

You could dip me in that dayglo shit and it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference as to how people don't see me. It's up there with compulsory lights on.

[Jantar]

Survey completed. Then I sent the following email to the researchers


Hi,

I have completed the survey, but unfortunately couldn’t answer as honestly as I would like. The survey is deficient in a few points, some of which are so serious as to make any conclusions from it worthless.

The first one is that it misses a major riding demographic of those aged 50 – 60.

Then the questions make the assumption that Hi Vis gear is safer. Actual results show that per km ridden riders in all black gear have fewer multi vehicle accidents. Research in the UK showed that this is because the human brain perceives black as a threat, and although motorists may not actually recognise the black blob as a motorcycle it is still a threat and they take avoiding action.

The question also asks about the size of a rider’s motorcycle in 3 broad bands. It doesn’t recognise that large capacity (over 600 cc) adventure bikes actually have a lower performance and are considerably safer than mid capacity sports bikes.

The survey also fails to recognise that black riding gear is warmer for the rider than lighter colours, and that it is more practical in many circumstances.

I seriously hope that either a new survey designed by actual riders is forthcoming, or that the research is published with a clear note showing its deficiencies.

Regards

[mashman]

I did the survey. I answered no to participating and clicked next. This took me into the survey :blink: Also there's no option for not wanting to wear hi-viz because it's gay and for nice safe Honda riders.

[Nzpure]

95% of Chch drivers are blind valium soaked retards, you could have a flashing light on your head and it will NOT make any difference.

Chritchurch drivers are the worst in NZ on so many levels, and most of you think it is every one else,- riding my road bike in this town is terrifying and drives me to angry paranioa, then I get to spend lots of time in traffic cause of my job.

1- The least ability to look and actually see.
2- The poorest descision making anywhere after having "looked"
3- The slowest and least decisive action taking anywhere, after having made a decision.

And some uni academic wants people to buy into a study on dayglo vests? So the victims of vehicular attack wear stupid bright vests that make no difference, rather than the "justice" system punish, Adequately! the retards that commit the crime, in order that other vehicularly retarded morons recognise possible consequence and maybe, just maybe try to improve ? good grief:mad:

LOL soooo true. I grew up in katikati norf island spent heaps of time in hams,toerags and auckland. Drive up to see my folks 2-3 times a year so i been about the place and by far the worst thoughtless, ill just put my lipstick on while i talk on the phone oops i ran a red light and that looks like a bike im about to hit o poo, kinda of drivers are definetly here in chch!
FYI She missed becuase im a ninja gp rider with teh mad skills and i dodged her! roflmao.

[Nzpure]

I don't wear hi viz and nor do i get knocked off !

Smidsy ? Yeah sure if you insist, they are out there ! But no more then there were 30 years ago !

I say what katman says, open your fucking eyes ppl !!!! There are hazzards out there at every bend, side street, roundabout, driveway, hell, they're even right there on your own bike, the moment you hop on it without taking the time to check the little things like pads, tyre pressures, head bearings, shall i go on ? And no one is looking for them, they blindly bolt off into the sunset going i'm ok jack, if i crash it must be some other cunt's fault !

Jesus, i must be ok cause i don't even (cant even) fit in to this survey lol opps too old or not old enough you choose !

Hi viz be fucked, pin a tail on me and call me a weazel cause i'm a cunning old fox and know that if i get fucked up, it will be me that fucks up !
Not the fact that some other fuck never saw me, for fucks sake the fucker never new i existed till he heard me !

Loud pipes save lives !!!!!!!!!!

As does education ! the new licencing system goes nowhere to help the problem ! With both car or M/C licences !
Full on driving/riding courses are the way to go !
Put that in your survey and smoke it !

HAHA god your a grumpy cunt lol, Hope i get to meet you one day ill buy you a beer!

[Oblivion]

P.E.B.S.W.A.D.S

Problem exists between steering wheel and Drivers seat.

[Conquiztador]

Not interested in doing any surveys re Day Glow gear. Why? Because it is all a waste of time and resources.

I have been riding in black for 45 years. I am 100% responsible for my own safety. If a blind old hag pulls out from the laundromat parking and I smash in to her, colours will not matter. What matters is if I anticipate that she is blind and I have a escape plan.

If I sit at 180k/h and pass all and everything, Day Glow has no meaning. Only thing that will save me is my riding.

To have Day Glow gear on when riding is like having a condom on your dick while playing russian roulette.

[wsm.highvisresearch]

The problem with the age groupings has now been fixed. Thanks again for your feedback.

[Virago]

The problem with the age groupings has now been fixed. Thanks again for your feedback.

That's the minor problem.

The main issue is with the survey bias.

You have presented the irrefutable "fact" that hi-vis is safer, and simply asked motorcyclists to rate their willingness to accept that fact. Any results will be completely meaningless.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Fuck you guys, get with the program. I'm co-operating so I can get a new black leather 8XL racing suit with yellow lightening bolts and flames as my prize.:2thumbsup

[scumdog]

Rach and I were driving home in our quite noisey and very bright red Commodore ute the other day.

Some old fucking bat all of a sudden did a quick lane change and near side swipped us.

If only our ute was high vis instead of loud and red it wouldn't have happened.

Tuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiii

The thing is Pete:
If hi-vis stops somebody from pulling out on front of a bike etc it is highly unlikely the potentially offending driver is going to follow you home to say "Wow man, that hi-vis really works, Iwouldn't have noticed you if you hadn't been wearing it"

So measuring its effectiveness is going to be almost impossible.

And people don't notice locomotives approaching them so for some nothing will get their attention, see todays edition of Southland Times and have a squiz at 'Your View' (the letters to the editor bit)

[Voltaire]

Another load of bollocks survey.
IN the end its about driver/rider behaviour not some colourful clothing, give drivers the steering wheel spike for a couple of years.
I use visy on the scootah as its slow and easy for driver target fixation.
The rest of the time on the bikes its black and I pretend ( not hard in Auckand) I'm invisible.
Still I expect our Nanny Govt just make me wear it
Oddly I pass the two places every day where I have had bike crashes....once on diesel and once an old lady going thu a stop sign......

[scumdog]

You could dip me in that dayglo shit and it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference as to how people don't see me. It's up there with compulsory lights on.

And the ones that DID see you because of hi-vis/lights on? How would you know???:rolleyes:

[scumdog]

My biggest concern over making hi-vis compulsory is the false sense of security it is likely to lull many wearers into.

Training motorcyclists to really use their eyes and their brain would be far more benificial.

Ya Luddite, people said tha same thing when seatbelts first came out, the same comment was made when air-bags first appeared etc - oh my, how my eyes are rolling today!!:rolleyes:

But I agree with your second comment.

[p.dath]

Just to be clear, who is paying for the research?

All the tax payers of NZ are I would think - it's being done by a NZ school.

[p.dath]

Survey completed. Then I sent the following email to the researchers

I wish I could give you some more credit, but the site won't let me. Good email. You can easily see from the way the survey is written that the author believes high-viz should be worn.

[oneofsix]

The thing is Pete:
If hi-vis stops somebody from pulling out on front of a bike etc it is highly unlikely the potentially offending driver is going to follow you home to say "Wow man, that hi-vis really works, Iwouldn't have noticed you if you hadn't been wearing it"

So measuring its effectiveness is going to be almost impossible.

And people don't notice locomotives approaching them so for some nothing will get their attention, see todays edition of Southland Times and have a squiz at 'Your View' (the letters to the editor bit)

the thing is, and you can check this yourself, as far as pulling out in front of you goes they are not going to see the hi-viz behind your headlight so the hi-vis is pointless.

From behind it only works if the rider isn't wearing a backpack, is wearing a backpack therefore going to be made illegal so the hi-vis can work? But also the tail-light will be on because the headlight has to be on so the hi-viz is again ineffective.

That leaves the side. You don't really see the hi-viz from the side do you? It seems to have a certain lack of presence being less than 200mm across with appendages like arms hanging across it. Plus if it is only when you are dead in front of them, crossing their bow that they see you it seems a little late, they are either going to be too late to hit you or it is too late and the crash is happening.

All up a waste of money but a good money spinner for the makers of the hi-viz tape. :shutup:
A psychological crutch that doesn't really improve safety (oh fuck am I agreeing with Katman? :facepalm:)

As for
people said tha same thing when seatbelts first came out, the same comment was made when air-bags first appeared etc They both were of immediate safety benefit to the user the hi-viz is questionable at beat and its benefit is based making the other driver do their job.

The hi-stop would have been a better example and its benefits are still questionable given that the research used was based on USA where the stop light, tail light and indicators are all often the same unit and all red. :Offtopic: outlaw red indicators so its easier to tell when they are braking etc

[p.dath]

And the ones that DID see you because of hi-vis/lights on? How would you know???:rolleyes:

I've heard that holding your head under water until you drown doubles your life expenctancy - don't believe me - how would you know until you tried it?

The kind of argument you present is futile. People suggesting that high-viz makes a difference are only doing so based on a hunch. I have heard several say 'research says', and then I ask them what research - and no one has ever been able to answer. You know why? Because there is no research that has found a conclusive link between high-viz and safety. There is a small amount of research that has found it might make a difference, and then a whole lot of research that found it didn't make any difference.

[James Deuce]

All the tax payers of NZ are I would think - it's being done by a NZ school.
Errr, no. Research projects are almost all funded commercially by corporates. That sea-change was instituted in the early 2000s. Researchers are required to organise funding for their projects, most of the time.
Universities are not pure research facilities and haven't been for a very long time. This will be funded by 3M or some other producer of reflective fabrics, because instituting a legal compulsion to wear it makes them free money. University-backed research results are supposed to make the uneducated swallow the results without question.
If anyone seriously thinks this is about "safety" I suggest you send me some marshmallows down from your pink fluffy-cloud-land.

[oneofsix]

Errr, no. Research projects are almost all funded commercially by corporates. That sea-change was instituted in the early 2000s. Researchers are required to organise funding for their projects, most of the time.
Universities are not pure research facilities and haven't been for a very long time. This will be funded by 3M or some other producer of reflective fabrics, because instituting a legal compulsion to wear it makes them free money. University-backed research results are supposed to make the uneducated swallow the results without question.
If anyone seriously thinks this is about "safety" I suggest you send me some marshmallows down from your pink fluffy-cloud-land.

Me want marshymallows too :drool: I've been saying for ages this is commercially driven rubbish.


All up a waste of money but a good money spinner for the makers of the hi-viz tape.

[Voltaire]

Ya Luddite, people said tha same thing when seatbelts first came out, the same comment was made when air-bags first appeared etc - oh my, how my eyes are rolling today!!:rolleyes:

But I agree with your second comment.

but....seat belts and air bags are active components, where as vizy is passive. Its not like hitting a wearer of hi viz is going to injure the driver....just saying....

[oneofsix]

but....seat belts and air bags are active components, where as vizy is passive. Its not like hitting a wearer of hi viz is going to injure the driver....just saying....

Now there is an idea, an active jacket. A jacket that sends out an EM pulse, disabling the offending vehicle before it can impact you.

[Conquiztador]

I still recon we need someone walking in front of every bike with a BIG Day Glow flag to inform cagers that a bike is approaching.

[Hawk]

while there seems to be no studies saying Hivis is effecetive at reducing car v motorcycle accidents and untill that is done in this country, not Australia or any other as driver attitudes, driving conditions are differnet, I think it maybe a bit unfair to say its ineffective. Personally ill use any means made available to me to make my myself more visible to other road users inclusive of motorcyclists. Yes I have had attended motorocycle v motorcycle head on, so its not only car drivers that dont see other motorcyclists, so I suggest you be carefull when pointing the finger.

This survey only tests the motorcyclists attidute to HighVis and is not designed to test anything other than that. Yes maybe it could have better written, maybe with consulation with a reconised motorcycle representive group such as BRONZ.

[oneofsix]

while there seems to be no studies saying Hivis is effecetive at reducing car v motorcycle accidents and untill that is done in this country, not Australia or any other as driver attitudes, driving conditions are differnet, I think it maybe a bit unfair to say its ineffective. Personally ill use any means made available to me to make my myself more visible to other road users inclusive of motorcyclists. Yes I have had attended motorocycle v motorcycle head on, so its not only car drivers that dont see other motorcyclists, so I suggest you be carefull when pointing the finger

But the point is, right now, you are free to chose to wear it, why should the rest be forced to wear it?
Also if we are forced to wear it will it then make your wearing it less affective?

My opinion is that the answers, in order, are no and yes. If that is the case then out of self interest you should also be against making it compulsory.

[Tigadee]

Loud pipes save lives !!!!!!!!!!

And it's bad ass (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/148800-My-bike-is-bad-arse)! :lol:


Now there is an idea, an active jacket. A jacket that sends out an EM pulse, disabling the offending vehicle before it can impact you.

Wouldn't RPGs mounted on your bike be better? A disabled car hurtling towards you with no brakes will still impact you...

[oneofsix]

Wouldn't RPGs mounted on your bike be better? A disabled car hurtling towards you with no brakes will still impact you...

:facepalm: my age is showing again. Long time since car brakes were mechanical, but it works in the movies :rolleyes:

The RPG idea raises a couple of questions;
Does an RPG count as a dangerous fitting?
Would it require the left hand throttle as per the 1941 Indian to allow the rider to operate it?

"It's unusual compared to modern-day motorbikes, because it has the throttle on the left. I'm told this was so the soldiers using it during World War II could shoot with their right hand. But I reckon you'd be too busy hanging on to shoot!"
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/motoring/6788819/Dennis-rides-worlds-slowest-Indian

Might require a modern automatic targeting and remote trigger but could be done.

[Hawk]

If that is the case then out of self interest you should also be against making it compulsory.

on the nail

[Swoop]

Survey done.

It is exceptionally poorly constructed as there is no quantifying "experience" (km's travelled per year / lifetime, years riding, etc).

Even worse is the lack of accidents involved in historically+recently AND whether the rider was wearing hi-viz or not at that time.

How this got past the ethics committee is surprising. It was submitted to the ethics committee, wasn't it?

GIGO will be the result but that isn't the object, is it.


Just to be clear, who is paying for the research?
One would have to guess Wellington's Victoria University?

There is serious encouragement for "academics" to do more research as it assists cudos and University standings...
Unfortunately there are vast amounts of money wasted on absolute crap research, this being a good example.

[James Deuce]

\

One would have to guess Wellington's Victoria University?

There is serious encouragement for "academics" to do more research as it assists cudos and University standings...
Unfortunately there are vast amounts of money wasted on absolute crap research, this being a good example.

Let's be clear. Universities seldom pay for research. The academic doing the research has to raise funding to cover some or all of the costs. Quite often professors teaching post-grad students will have a line of commercial research that they use the post-grad students to process.

I'm surprised that people still think "universities" pay for research. Part of your grade is how you manage your research project. Funding it with an eye to commercial application has been the goal of University Vice-Chancellors and the Government for more than a decade. In 2003 I was doing statistical analysis for the Tourism industry as part of of a M.Comms(IT) programme for a professor who was making a lot of dosh consulting to Tourism NZ.

[oneofsix]

Survey done.

It is exceptionally poorly constructed as there is no quantifying "experience" (km's travelled per year / lifetime, years riding, etc).

Even worse is the lack of accidents involved in historically+recently AND whether the rider was wearing hi-viz or not at that time.

How this got past the ethics committee is surprising. It was submitted to the ethics committee, wasn't it?

GIGO will be the result but that isn't the object, is it.


One would have to guess Wellington's Victoria University?

There is serious encouragement for "academics" to do more research as it assists cudos and University standings...
Unfortunately there are vast amounts of money wasted on absolute crap research, this being a good example.

You worry me :laugh:. Did you not notice that the first post has big letters say Otago Uni? not Vic. Ok, it did say Wellington but there is also a Massey Uni in Wellington.

The bias of the questions the survey is either being sponsored by the likes of 3M or being pushed by some group that will benefit for the likes of 3M. "Awarness of potential benefits" as an option :facepalm: chocolate and red wine can potentially make me live longer too or they can potentially cause the health problems that kill me. At least with chocolate and red wine I will be happier than in the hi-viz :laugh:

[blue rider]

I still recon we need someone walking in front of every bike with a BIG Day Glow flag to inform cagers that a bike is approaching.


that would not work either, because the cager would run over he flag man and than the biker.

[Ntoxcated]

I have heard that one of the benefits of the reflective tape on some vests is that it makes for a much better laser reflection to those that may perhaps have some kind of device that is looking for said reflection. That being said, I would have thought the front of the bike gave a good enough reflection anyway.

[Asher]

I have heard that one of the benefits of the reflective tape on some vests is that it makes for a much better laser reflection to those that may perhaps have some kind of device that is looking for said reflection. That being said, I would have thought the front of the bike gave a good enough reflection anyway.

When i worked as a surveyors technician i used robotic theodolites that can track the prism, often they would get confused and lock onto reflective things like road signs, cones and high vis vests. If police radar works this way it might be easier for them to lock on you or perhaps if there was heaps of reflective stuff around they would have trouble locking on or get wrong readings.

[5150]

Done didly do :sweatdrop

[Paul in NZ]

But the point is, right now, you are free to chose to wear it, why should the rest be forced to wear it?
Also if we are forced to wear it will it then make your wearing it less affective?

My opinion is that the answers, in order, are no and yes. If that is the case then out of self interest you should also be against making it compulsory.

Take a wider view. ALL of us are forced to fund the recovery of riders injured in crashes through taxes. Hence the majority has a say in how you conduct yourself on the road in order to minimise this cost. Thats done through traffic laws etc. There is no opt out model because you might (say) opt out of paying ACC but have to fund everything yourself or even opt out of paying tax for roading but not be allowed to use the roads.

So yes - IF there is a consensus or data to prove HiVis or reflective elements are effective then it is reasonable to assume society will require it if you want to ride on societies roads and enjoy all the other things (like ACC, ambulances etc)

However, this IS still a reasonably free society and there is nothing stopping you complaining and or doing something about it like lobbying or forming a political party. (look at what the Tea Party has achieved)

I couldn't give a rats - I'll wear the bloody stupid things if I have to....

[oneofsix]

Take a wider view. ALL of us are forced to fund the recovery of riders injured in crashes through taxes. Hence the majority has a say in how you conduct yourself on the road in order to minimise this cost. Thats done through traffic laws etc. There is no opt out model because you might (say) opt out of paying ACC but have to fund everything yourself or even opt out of paying tax for roading but not be allowed to use the roads.

So yes - IF there is a consensus or data to prove HiVis or reflective elements are effective then it is reasonable to assume society will require it if you want to ride on societies roads and enjoy all the other things (like ACC, ambulances etc)

However, this IS still a reasonably free society and there is nothing stopping you complaining and or doing something about it like lobbying or forming a political party. (look at what the Tea Party has achieved)

I couldn't give a rats - I'll wear the bloody stupid things if I have to....

The problem is that unless you resist you wont get the prove and they will just force it on you. Like the survey itself talks about the awareness of the probability, now if that was the awareness of the proof it would be more palatable. With Hi-stop and seat belts and even air bags they had research that "proved" there effectiveness, with hi-vis they have a hunch at best (more like a spinnable story) and a profit interest.

[Flip]

We use the road at the discression of LTSA and the NZ goverment. LTSA by statute have the legal authority to make what ever regulations they seem fit to make the roads safer.

ie you are fucked.

[oneofsix]

We use the road at the discression of LTSA and the NZ goverment. LTSA by statute have the legal authority to make what ever regulations they seem fit to make the roads safer.

ie you are fucked.

defeatist :ar15:

[george formby]

I would love to see contribution to this topic / debate from professional riders who wear hi viz, Police, first response etc. Sure, they are highly trained but must also be aware of any effect from wearing hi viz, not just assuming that it is saving their bacon on a day to day basis. Quite possibly they would say better skills are the best solution but every little helps in getting home safely.
I agree with the "it just needs to work once" mentality too.

[Scuba_Steve]

And people don't notice locomotives approaching them so for some nothing will get their attention, see todays edition of Southland Times and have a squiz at 'Your View' (the letters to the editor bit)
:gob: na bullshit, locomotives already have "hi-vis" fronts therefore studies show everyone sees them.


Ya Luddite, people said tha same thing when seatbelts first came out, the same comment was made when air-bags first appeared etc - oh my, how my eyes are rolling today!!:rolleyes:


To an extent they do, give a false sense of security, people know the "safety net's" there so they'll take that into account. Like insurance, people with insurance are far more likely to be in an accident then those without.
Can't speak for down there but up here if you see a bad biker, chances are they're donning the Hi-Vis glow.

[Zedder]

The problem is that unless you resist you wont get the prove and they will just force it on you. Like the survey itself talks about the awareness of the probability, now if that was the awareness of the proof it would be more palatable. With Hi-stop and seat belts and even air bags they had research that "proved" there effectiveness, with hi-vis they have a hunch at best (more like a spinnable story) and a profit interest.

It's not "a hunch at best" OO6, have you checked out the overseas (Hurt and MAIDS) reports on the subject of hi-viz? Also the 2004 one done in NZ?

Flip is more likely a realist, if the powers that be want to legislate something they will. They really want to stop paying out money while charging for the privilege of driving and riding etc. Although, keeping the public safe would be up there as well.

[george formby]

It's not "a hunch at best" OO6, have you checked out the overseas (Hurt and MAIDS) reports on the subject of hi-viz? Also the 2004 one done in NZ?

Flip is more likely a realist, if the powers that be want to legislate something they will. They really want to stop paying out money while charging for the privilege of driving and riding etc. Although, keeping the public safe would be up there as well.

I feel it will come...

Like France..

Motorcyclists in France face compulsory high visibility clothing from next year.

The French government is pushing ahead with plans for compulsory hi-vis riding gear despite protests.

From January 1 2013, riders of bikes over 125cc will have to wear a reflective item of clothing under the French version of the Highway Code.

The reflective area must be on the upper body and cover at least 150 square centimetres. The requirement will apply to riders and pillions and is likely to affect foreigners travelling in France.

Failure to comply could lead to a fine of €68.

MAG’s Ian Mutch said: "We contend that a motorist who is incapable of identifying a normally dressed rider and motorcycle in conditions of good visibility is not fit to hold a driving licence.

"Making extreme demands of motorcyclists in respect of their clothing is to effectively persecute the victims of problem to accommodate the failings of those who often cause them."

I love the last two lines...

But wait..

Motorcyclists also face compulsory retraining if they haven’t ridden for five years and larger number plates on their bikes.

Other measures include jail sentences for speeding by more than 31mph (50kph), removal of speed camera signs and a ban on camera warning devices which could include GPS and smart phone applications. Penalties for drink driving and mobile phone use are also to be toughened.

British motorcyclists entering France will be expected to comply with the new rules, which are due to be imposed by September.

Nick Brown, General Secretary of the Motorcycle Action Group (MAG), said: "As well as affecting UK riders visiting France, the French proponents of the changes will doubtless be encouraging other governments to follow their lead. MAG is putting together plans to support FFMC and oppose the adoption of these measures elsewhere in Europe."

[wsm.highvisresearch]

In response to the enquiries about this study:

We are a group of 4th year medical students undertaking the study as part of our course. We are receiving no funding from outside the University. MOTO NZ are the client and will be receiving a copy of the report. However, the project is being conducted independent of MOTO NZ and they have no influence on our grades for the project.

For those who do not believe that there is a benefit to wearing high visibility clothing, please list this under the "other" category on the question regarding what you would consider a barrier to wearing high-vis clothing.

Also, this is just one component of our study. We are also conducting key informant and public interviews, as well as gathering other quantitative data.

Thanks again for your responses.

[Maha]

And you would think, what better place to go to for inspirational input and support on such a matter..a biker forum...:rolleyes:
The fickleness shown by some would indicate that there was little, or no thought given that the outcome, could work in the favour of motorcyclists.

[Flip]

Well I have just found that Harley do a couple of black reflective vests that are not too GAY.

It's going to be a pain to cut all the badges off my old vest and get them sewed onto the new one, buy hey oh well.

[Road kill]

My biggest concern over making hi-vis compulsory is the false sense of security it is likely to lull many wearers into.

Training motorcyclists to really use their eyes and their brain would be far more benificial.

My biggist concern "and probably the most truthfull" is that the OP is just using this site to gather info to use against bikers and to make money for themselves by making and selling homo vests.
Well,,,that's EXACTLY what it is,,,,:mad:cunt

[scumdog]

My biggist concern "and probably the most truthfull" is that the OP is just using this site to gather info to use against bikers and to make money for themselves by making and selling homo vests.
Well,,,that's EXACTLY what it is,,,,:mad:cunt

Ooooo,.... the paranoia will eat you up...tin-foil hats all round everybody...:crazy:

[James Deuce]

In response to the enquiries about this study:

We are a group of 4th year medical students undertaking the study as part of our course. We are receiving no funding from outside the University. MOTO NZ are the client and will be receiving a copy of the report. However, the project is being conducted independent of MOTO NZ and they have no influence on our grades for the project.

For those who do not believe that there is a benefit to wearing high visibility clothing, please list this under the "other" category on the question regarding what you would consider a barrier to wearing high-vis clothing.

Also, this is just one component of our study. We are also conducting key informant and public interviews, as well as gathering other quantitative data.

Thanks again for your responses.

If you want support, post a breakdown of your funding. Taking people at their word is absurd. Expecting us to do so is even more absurd. MOTO NZ are Government lackies being used to put an acceptable face on ridiculous assumptions which are then in turn transmogrified into laws designed to prevent motorcycling from being perceived as a viable transport option. The survey is severely flawed in that it treats all road users, and all motorcyclists as "equals". They are not. Instead of training road users to acceptable levels we'll blame the motorcyclist for all of their accidents because they aren't "visible" enough to other road users while imposing extra costs, thereby ensuring motorcycles in no way resemble cheap transport.

The issue at hand is not a motorcyclist's perceived visibility. It is teaching other motorists to look for each other. Surveys are not a research tool. They're a way of skewing your results to suit the predicated answer, especially when you extort them from a captive market.

[James Deuce]

Well I have just found that Harley do a couple of black reflective vests that are not too GAY.

It's going to be a pain to cut all the badges off my old vest and get them sewed onto the new one, buy hey oh well.

You'll find that the reflective clothing requirements will be confined to certain parts of the spectrum, not all of them. Daytime visibility is what is being discussed, not the potential for your clothing to reflect light at night, though that is certainly part of the equation.

[blue rider]

What about Back Packs? Will they need to be Hi Viz, or will they be verboten, as they might cover the Hi Viz thingie?

[scumdog]

To an extent they do, give a false sense of security, people know the "safety net's" there so they'll take that into account. Like insurance, people with insurance are far more likely to be in an accident then those without.
Can't speak for down there but up here if you see a bad biker, chances are they're donning the Hi-Vis glow.

Nah, no false sense of security - hell, they can't even remember to put the fuckers on - how can they even think enough to have a false sense of secutiy??

And I'd love to see the figures re insured people vs non-insured.

Most crashes I attend it is not always info I obtain.

But most seem to have insurance - but then down here most (except for bottom-feeding slack-jawed drongos) seem to have soem form of insurance.

The ones that don't report their "off road excursions" mostly don't have insurance.

[scumdog]

I did not see a catagory for : 'Do you use additional lighting to increase visible presence to other road users'. (or similar)

[jellywrestler]

1. What do NZ motorcyclists wear when riding- in particular in terms of high visibility clothing?


my jacket has light reflective strips. Does your office dwelling high visibility research people classify that as high vis????????????????

Your gay coloured roadworker/building site cloaks aren't worth 'a cunt full of cold snow' at night time whereas my stripes are so how about laying out a definition of what you call high vis????????????

thanks

[MIXONE]

Nah, no false sense of security - hell, they can't even remember to put the fuckers on - how can they even think enough to have a false sense of secutiy??


I wear one everyday in the Wellington traffic and forget that it's even on just like my headlight so no false sense of security here.I figure every other person on the road is going to try and kill me so any extra chance I can give myself I'll take

[rustic101]

IMO

I could bitch and moan on here about the pro's and con's of hi-vis or do something constructive, having choose the later I'm in for an interview by the research team. That way I can provide my perspective of not just hi-vis but other options. Does it really matter whoés footing the bill? It could be that the collective effort could just sway some of those homos at MOTO NZ.

Some of the comments made appear to have been done with out even reading the entire thread or OP's message's. Put you energy into taking part even if its to express your personal beliefs. This is a group of 4th years trying to do what they believe is the right thing to advance while trying to achieve something for a community group. Pop your tin foil hats away for 5 minutes FFS.

[Virago]

...MOTO NZ are the client and will be receiving a copy of the report...

The truth (and agenda) slowly emerges...

[Ocean1]

I still recon we need someone walking in front of every bike with a BIG Day Glow flag to inform cagers that a bike is approaching.

Fuck that, if a little dayglow on my arse is good then legislating for compulsary 100% dayglow paint for cars must be fucking awsome.


Innit.

[caspernz]

Done the survey, seems basic and almost pointless really. Far more variables at play than just whether your glow in the dark or not....

But yeah, I wear the hi-viz vest already, so the ramblings of the tin hat brigade don't bother me.

[Ocean1]

Take a wider view. ALL of us are forced to fund the recovery of riders injured in crashes through taxes. Hence the majority has a say in how you conduct yourself on the road in order to minimise this cost.

Don't agree. Take that premis to it's inevitable conclusion and no minority will escape censure and eventual elimination by the majority. So no, the fact that ACC, (a very good deal it must be said) covers the more adventurous souls as well as the extremely risk averse doesn't give them, (or anyone else) the right to dictate specifically what precautions an individual must take in any given circumstance.


Fuck'em.

[300weatherby]

I would love to see contribution to this topic / debate from professional riders who wear hi viz, Police, first response etc. Sure, they are highly trained but must also be aware of any effect from wearing hi viz, not just assuming that it is saving their bacon on a day to day basis. Quite possibly they would say better skills are the best solution but every little helps in getting home safely.
I agree with the "it just needs to work once" mentality too.

Mmmmm........, cop on a COP!, bike, you think they even see the hi vis?, not!- they see the threat, he is visible because he is representative of possible CONSEQUENCE!, gimmie a big white beamer with blue and reds and I will feel safe as houses, cause I will be.

[awa355]

:facepalm: my age is showing again. Long time since car brakes were mechanical, but it works in the movies :rolleyes:

The RPG idea raises a couple of questions;
Does an RPG count as a dangerous fitting?
Would it require the left hand throttle as per the 1941 Indian to allow the rider to operate it?

Might require a modern automatic targeting and remote trigger but could be done.

I'm sure I've seen an Ad for a Ural complete with a machine gun mounted in the sidecar. The Ural might yet, turn out to be the safest bike on the road. :msn-wink:

[Flip]

262533262534262536262537

Just a few options from the Harley catalogue.

262538

Anybody got a spare LMG?

[jellywrestler]

But yeah, I wear the hi-viz vest already,
what do you define as a hi-viz vest then?

[Flip]

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Content/Pages/MotorClothes_Merchandise/360-enhanced-rider-visibility-gear.html#

At least you won't have to look like a honda rider.

[MIZXR]

The bright orange stickers on cop cars is great when your looking but not really noticeable when your not looking. They keep getting revenue. People crash into roadwork vehicles that are yellow and reflective both at nigth and day. The servey is pretty much one sided.
Can we get all cars to test it across the boot to see if it stops rear end crashes first before I have to destroy a perfectly good jacket.

[Swoop]

Let's be clear. Universities seldom pay for research. The academic doing the research has to raise funding to cover some or all of the costs.

Staff access to funding is quite simple. No raising of funds, only a simple request accompanied by a budget for the <STRIKE>hair-brained scheme</STRIKE> wonderful idea.
Add to that airfares and accomodation for presentation at overseas forums and you can get a quick holiday thrown in as well. Seen it happen many times over some decidedly dubious research. Reinventing the wheel is quite popular at the moment.

[KiWiP]

The bright orange stickers on cop cars is great when your looking...

So true. If high vis is so visible how come so many people don't see uniform cars until it's 'ticket time'

[MIZXR]

Identifing something that is happening and putting a bright shiny flag on it wont solve the problem, may not even help in this case. What is causing the problem, why do we need to make ourselve more visable? I ride a bright green bike with a dark jacket with semi reflective strips but I still have people fail to see me. How does bright and shiny help if:
they don't look,
they glance but don't look - blind spots no excuse but neither is ridding in a bad place,
they fail to see - happens might help here but,
I indicated - I'm bigger why are you still there,
I was busy - best was watching a lady get changed,
general road issues - no idea of road rules / bad luck,
illegal such as speeding running red lights.

But also what are we doing wrong bout the same list
that jogger looked good,
speed, bad passing on and on,

You'd be better off adressing the cause of WHY not wrapping us in wool. Look into how a road rule every ad break would increase the skills and knowledge of road users from bikes to trucks, or maybe a reward program for dobbing in unlicensed drivers.

[Berries]

Well here’s my tuppence worth seeing as the University bods are at least monitoring this thread, which is a good thing.

I have been working in road safety in NZ for over 15 years and over that time have done numerous crash analyses as well as investigated scores of fatal and serious crashes. I have worked with both the University and the IPRU in a variety of road safety related research projects. As a rider I have always had a personal interest in motorbike crashes. I have come to the conclusion from my work in the field and as an everyday, all weather rider that hi-viz would do very little to improve my safety on the road. My safety is in my hands, and that’s about it.

If hi-viz is the answer, then the question has been worded wrong. If the assumption is that you are in their line of sight and hi-viz may be of benefit then ‘they’ are in our line of sight as well. The answer is defensive riding. Whatever the results of future research or this survey, and I wasn’t surprised to see MotoNZ behind it, I for one will not be wearing hi-viz.

Long rant cut short. But big ups for coming on here and asking. You’ll probably find the comments on the survey and responses in this thread will be of more value than the survey itself because it was loaded.

[Oblivion]

Hi viz vest usually mean a fluoro colour, with a small patch of reflective material. If they are after reflective material, whats wrong with having a black jacket with a small patch of reflective material?

[Maha]

what do you define as a hi-viz vest then?

Not the kind that you spoke of earlier, the kind that can make your eyes turn just by looking at it...My wife has/wears one.
You have spend more than $15.95 for one that is effective.
And I agree..the ''Your gay coloured roadworker/building site cloaks'' are useless for anything more than turning a stop/go sign.

http://www.fc-moto.de/epages/fcm.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/10207048/Products/Revit-Athos-Veste/SubProducts/Revit-Athos-Veste-0001

[Usarka]

In response to the enquiries about this study:

We are a group of 4th year medical students undertaking the study as part of our course. We are receiving no funding from outside the University. MOTO NZ are the client and will be receiving a copy of the report. However, the project is being conducted independent of MOTO NZ and they have no influence on our grades for the project.


Note that the entire survey is about why people like/dislike hi-vis, and there is nothing about it's effectiveness. That folks is because the decision has been made, and MOTONZ are planning the change management requried to get us all to comply.

I'll take care of myself on the road, but don't tell me what to wear because other people aren't driving safely themselves.

PS - If this survey passes for a 4th year uni project then our uni's are shit (unless the scope is to help MotoNZ with the change management).

PPS - Can you please post the terms of reference for this project?

[skippa1]

say no to dayglow

[Madness]

I think it's sad that this is the best that MotoNZ can come up with. I expected more from Gareth :facepalm:

[JohnR]

Two ways to make hi vis attractive and effective would be:

1. Reduced ACC levy to those who wear it :headbang:and

2. Double (at least) the penalty/fine for causing a crash involving a motorcyclist wearing it. :ar15:
Single vehicle crashes excluded of course:msn-wink:

[bogan]

Long rant cut short. But big ups for coming on here and asking. You’ll probably find the comments on the survey and responses in this thread will be of more value than the survey itself because it was loaded.

This pretty much sums it up, while I can't actually do/look at the survey as it seems to be down, from the responses I gather it is the same biased drivel we have seen before.

FFS if the mandatory headlight law didn't do shit (and I'm assuming it didn't because we are being burdened with this crap only a few years later), how is a little bit of colored cloth supposed to do more?

[Swoop]

Two ways to make hi vis attractive and effective would be:

1. Reduced ACC levy to those who wear it :headbang:and

2. Double (at least) the penalty/fine for causing a crash involving a motorcyclist wearing it. :ar15:
Single vehicle crashes excluded of course:msn-wink:

Perhaps improving the standard of driving/riding in this country should be the first priority?
We appreciate the fact that NZ driving skills are poor and the standards of training and education are so low that we have "part-trained" road users holding a full kicence.

Upskilling / advanced driver/rider training are the utmost priority, NOT some bright pieces of cloth.

[Scuba_Steve]

Nah, no false sense of security - hell, they can't even remember to put the fuckers on - how can they even think enough to have a false sense of secutiy??

And I'd love to see the figures re insured people vs non-insured.

Most crashes I attend it is not always info I obtain.

But most seem to have insurance - but then down here most (except for bottom-feeding slack-jawed drongos) seem to have soem form of insurance.

The ones that don't report their "off road excursions" mostly don't have insurance.

Yea in NZ most people are insured (something like 94%), the insured vs uninsured was overseas (non-compulsery) country can't remember which, but the insurance was "safety net" subconscious sorta goes "well if something happens insurance will cover it" whereas the uninsured goes "fuck if something happens I'm going bankrupt best not crash" of-course there are always the exception to the rule (these "bottom-feeding slack-jawed drongos" you speak of) but for the most part insured people were more likely to & did crash more often then uninsured people.

Same as replacing the airbag with a spike, it's just an extra incentive not to crash. Airbag people subconsciously go "the airbag will save me", spike people would go "I crash I'm dead". Also why bikers (general rule) tend to be better road users, again we crash we're dead or fucked. We don't have those "safety nets"

This can be the problem with Hi-vis. When you might question "did they see me?" people in Hi-vis will start thinking subconsciously "na they saw me, I'm in Hi-vis they had to of". It's unavoidable human nature.

[bogan]

Perhaps improving the standard of driving/riding in this country should be the first priority?
We appreciate the fact that NZ driving skills are poor and the standards of training and education are so low that we have "part-trained" road users holding a full kicence.

Upskilling / advanced driver/rider training are the utmost priority, NOT some bright pieces of cloth.

Fucking eh! And the worst bit about cotton wooling (however high vis it may be) everything, is it just enables road users to get away with more ineptitude 99% of the time. Guess it is hard to change the way of thinking, what they need is an external group in touch with the road users, and willing to abandon preconceived ideas in favour of facts. Kind of like what the patsies at motonz said they would be.

[Tigadee]

To an extent they do, give a false sense of security, people know the "safety net's" there so they'll take that into account.

Really? I don't ride any different when I have my hi-viz on - I ride with caution irregardless of what I am wearing, but of course with even more caution yet style if I were wearing my birthday suit... :whistle: Seriously, would any of you be slack in your riding and sit awareness if you put hi-viz on?

If we can accept that full-face helmets are better, armoured and leather gear is better, headlights on all the time and louder pipes saves lives, etc., why not putting on hi-viz then?

Heck, short of mounting a disco ball and Christmas lights, and RPGs on my bike, I'd take any advantage in improving my chances on the road 'cos I'd rather not take anything for granted. That said, I normally put hi-viz on when it's dark...:innocent:

[GrayWolf]

In response to the enquiries about this study:

We are a group of 4th year medical students undertaking the study as part of our course. We are receiving no funding from outside the University. MOTO NZ are the client and will be receiving a copy of the report. However, the project is being conducted independent of MOTO NZ and they have no influence on our grades for the project.

Dear 4th year Students,
I applaud your efforts and I wish you well for your project grades (I know how much effort goes into these from personal experience) However as I know you will be aware, data can be skewed and/or misused by other bodies, this is probably a motorcyclists deepest concerns. We both know the quantative/qualatitive survey arguements. I fear however much your intentions are 'pure' you will see your research used in a way you may not foresee. The questions you ask are 'yes' simply do you wear, what do you wear questions. Can I ask you, what your hypothesis is? Maybe being old I am cynical, but I can foresee your survey being used to 'prove' that a majority of us admit to not wearing hi vis, so therefore we need a law to protect us. After all the emergency services, road side workers etc all wear hi vis. Motorcycling has a many varied range of characters, personalities and I guess if you read these forums, there is a 'healthy dose' of rebellion in attitude. That rebellious attitude often can be, and is; used against motorcyclists in general. There are also many of us who have read the book, worn the T shirt, and now finished our memoirs. Many of your questions ask just dark/light colours for items of clothing. Yes it is keeping it simple. However I have personally several different jackets, and I would say 99% of even all black jackets have reflective piping and/or strips etc on them.

For those who do not believe that there is a benefit to wearing high visibility clothing, please list this under the "other" category on the question regarding what you would consider a barrier to wearing high-vis clothing.

One thing I would criticise (but I understand fully the reason) is the small (one sentance box) where we can put down our reasons for not wearing hi vis. Personally if it becomes law? Then yes I will 'comply' by the simple fact as I buy new jackets etc they will have hi vis areas on them... however I will still be wearing my old jackets until they reach the end of serviceable life. Do I want this law/ NO!!! I and many other my age and older have seen compulsory helmets (a damn good law IMO), compulsory headlights which was to improve the bikes visibility to other road users (just like hi vis) and as you will see this supposed 'life saver' DIDNT/DOESNT!!! We have seen surveys, facts, research, figures placed before Govt's that completely refute their intentions.. but they will go ahead anyway. As medical students you may well sit back and be thinking, "yeh but we will get to see the horrific damage left by an accident in our work". If governments wanted to really put in place a better system they would introduce a similar system to Europe, stepped licences. So you need time, experience and a 'proven' level of expertise to progress to more powerful machinery. You and I may both know the frontal lobes on males are often not fully developed till mid 20's and the executive functions they perform. Again as the fact motorcycling is often the domain of young men, untill more recent years with the return of the baby boomer's with high levels of disposable income.

Also, this is just one component of our study. We are also conducting key informant and public interviews, as well as gathering other quantitative data.

Public interviews are qualitative and your survey is quantitativ.... The general public are not 'informed' apart from media and govt releases on this subject. To many 'motorcyclist' immediately brings up mental images of the 'hell's angel' type = bias. Also as the majority do not ride, they do not have any real understanding of the subject being surveyed... but the public opinion will of course 'matter' if it supports the move towards Hi-vis. This type of group thinking has been seen frequently through history Columbus is a prime example. The powers that be told the public the world is flat, Columbus knew otherwise, who did the public believe, untill PROVED otherwise!!
I would hope that you have and/or can acquire quantitative data from old times... 1980's etc. There was research into daylights (diffused rather than a beam) Vs headlights etc.. The UK Police rode bikes with a 'daylight' fitted, now why would a professional Law Upholding body do that without a valid reason??


Thanks again for your responses.

Thank you for reading this... and if I may put forwards an example of 'skewed date being used to attempt to implement a law? The Leg protector bill introduced by Peter Bottomly in the UK (1980's) almost became law. DESPITE a concern from the Medical/Surgeons councils thet they would in all likelyhood introduce massive damage to the knee joints of riders (thrown forwards, and the lower leg trapped behind said protector, the next joint in line? The knee!) The research carried out by the TRL (transport research laboratory) was using a BMW with the opposing cylinders removed on a frame to prevent the bike actually being forced onto its side, trapping the rider (dummy underneath) and the 'test car' was a morris marina.... ther was NO research done into impacts with the current trend then of low pointed front (aerodynamic) cars, vans, lorries etc etc..... but the figures produced were the ones Bottomly used to 'attempt' this bill.
When underhand or poorly performed research such as this is frequently used to gain support for a bill to be enacted, can you seriously wonder if some of the responses you may get are 'aggressive' or dismissive.....

Again I wish you all a successful completion of this project and a good mark towards your exams... and take this the way it IS intended, I sincerely hope to never meet you in the future!!
Regards
Graywulf.

[JohnR]

Perhaps improving the standard of driving/riding in this country should be the first priority?
We appreciate the fact that NZ driving skills are poor and the standards of training and education are so low that we have "part-trained" road users holding a full kicence.

Upskilling / advanced driver/rider training are the utmost priority, NOT some bright pieces of cloth.

Couldn't agree more.
However "those that know best" seem determined to compel us to wear hi vis, and as the safety benefits are apparently negligible, other benefits should be sought.
In most cases training by compulsion, like every thing else forced on people, is only paid lip service unless there is something to be gained by the compelee. Usually financial reward...
Bearing in mind that there is a cost involved in obtaining the compliant gear and for little or no perceived benefit.

Penalties and fines are a little less draconian than the "steering wheel spike" that has been advocated, but unfortunately this kind of deterrent seems to be more effective.

[Bassmatt]

If hi-vis is made law it will be done on the basis that the "facts" show it will reduce accidents etc etc. If TPTB truly believe this to be the case then the ACC levy should be reduced at the time the hi-vis law becomes current.
Bet it doesn't.

[Usarka]

Making hi-vis compulsory for bikers is to compensate for the actions and behaviours of other road users. I find this anagolous with the idea of making mini-skirts illegal so that women don't get raped.

[jellywrestler]

[B]AN INVESTIGATION OF MOTORCYCLE RIDER USE OF AND ATTITUDES TO HIGH VISIBILITY GEAR INFORMATION

you forgot to add a box asking for cell phones to be only sold in high-viz colours so Motorcyclists can see when wankers are using them on the road so we can give them a wide berth.

[pete376403]

Hi-viz has been compulsory on building sites for years - is there any evidence that this reduces work place accidents?

[Bald Eagle]

From personal experience hi-viz doesn't stop retarded disqualified drivers from pulling out of side rides hitting you and driving away. I still wear my hi-viz but now it's got lovely road rash scrapes all down the back.

[Berries]

If we can accept that full-face helmets are better, armoured and leather gear is better, headlights on all the time and louder pipes saves lives, etc., why not putting on hi-viz then?
Because not everyone accepts all those items that you quote. I'll give you the first two, but has headlights on made any difference? I'd rather have the choice personally, and I have never believed that loud pipes save lives, they just scare the kiddies.

[Swoop]

Guess it is hard to change the way of thinking, what they need is an external group in touch with the road users, and willing to abandon preconceived ideas in favour of facts.

Oddly, they are called the NZ Police and have enough laws available to them that they could aid the situation (lack of road courtesy, failure to indicate, failure to keep left unless passing, etc, etc) and could improve the situation.


However "those that know best" seem determined to compel us to wear hi vis, and as the safety benefits are apparently negligible, other benefits should be sought.
I would be interested to know what experience the "researchers" have of two-wheel transport. Their experience levels, are they riders themselves or merely adding data to their project?

[theseekerfinds]

did the survey.. don't wear hi-vis as a rule aside from my 1-piece RST wet weather suit, and even then haven't worn that in ages.
it has taken decades for the motorcycle safety and fashion industry to develop to where they are today (a multi-billion dollar industry) and whilst there is certainly room for reflective piping and panels etc there just isn't the scope for great swatches of hi-vis and as such I don't see the motorcycle clothing manufacturers climbing onboard with gusto to make hi-vis leathers or cordura for the mainstream as a core product. For emergency services perhaps but the mainstream, not likely.
I was at the Ulysses ANZAC ride in Upper Hutt today and out of the several hundreds of riders in attendance, aside from the marshals, there would have been maybe 1% with hi-vis on. They stood out more because they were bright spots in a sea of black leather and the like, as opposed to actually being highly visible. put them out on the road and they were barely more visible than any ZX6R or Ducati in attendance, and that was only if you actually knew what to look for.
Hi-vis should be a matter of choice, we should be able to choose to wear it if we want to. I don't want to so choose not to.
I agree with the early post that said something like "the best Hi-vis protection is my eyesight".. in the final survey question I noted that there is really very little in the way of genuine motorcylist hi-vis, it is all plain old hi-vis vests worn over our other clothing which means it doesn't fit properly, it isn't designed to do 50km/h - 100km/h and in that respect isn't very hi-vis at all it's just a waste of time and effort putting it on.
I just wish the powers that be would start to show some basic understanding of motorcycling and see that rider and driver training is where the solution for 90% of our issues lies. Not hi-vis, not ACC levies, not capacity limits, just training, training, training..

[Swoop]

Not hi-vis, not ACC levies, not capacity limits, just training, training, training..
Now there is a concept that has whooshed past the heads of our legislators.<_<

[Hitcher]

I have completed this short, amateurish, clumsy and leading survey. I hope that the supervising professor or whomever goes and talks to a professional market researcher. They should have before allowing a lame effort like this to go public. It's disappointing that a tertiary institute would be associated with something like this.

[MIZXR]

it has taken decades for the motorcycle safety and fashion industry to develop to where they are today (a multi-billion dollar industry) and whilst there is certainly room for reflective piping and panels etc there just isn't the scope for great swatches of hi-vis and as such I don't see the motorcycle clothing manufacturers climbing onboard with gusto to make hi-vis leathers or cordura for the mainstream as a core product. For emergency services perhaps but the mainstream, not likely.


If they make it law, how many of the quality "read I just sold my wife and kids expensive" brands are going to change their production to meet our requirements. If I have to wear a vest that will distract my attention from where I want it to and risk increasing my chance of injury by causing me to tumble - suits slide. Is helping someone see me more use than the protection I get?

Reflective rain gear is the only exception that I would consider but that seems to make people think I'm a big field with a puddle on top, not a bike.

Most people seem to spot badly dented and iratically driven vehicles, maybe where just safer on stuff that looks rough and ignoring road rules.

[MIZXR]

I have completed this short, amateurish, clumsy and leading survey. I hope that the supervising professor or whomever goes and talks to a professional market researcher. They should have before allowing a lame effort like this to go public. It's disappointing that a tertiary institute would be associated with something like this.

The might be smarter than us. Could be a fake test to guage our reactions through sites like these. Or maybe our old age in NZ is looking worse.

[p.dath]

...If we can accept that full-face helmets are better, armoured and leather gear is better, headlights on all the time and louder pipes saves lives, etc., why not putting on hi-viz then?


Full face helmets, armour and leather are normally chosen to reduce the serious of any in injuries during an accident - not to prevent an accident.

It is put forward that headlights, loud pipes and high-viz are intended to reduce the likelihood of an accident.

So the choice with the last three is quite different for the first three. Personally I use all of the first three, as I do want to reduce the seriousness of injuries should the worst happen. I don't really subscribe to the second three, as I don't think they have much impact on the chance of preventing an accident.

I used to wear a high-viz jacket, but have pretty much stopped now. It didn't seem to make any difference before or after I stopped wearing it. I can't find any research to suggest it makes any difference. So it seems a wasted effort.

[joan of arc]

Could it happen that riders wearing Hi Viz assume that they are obvious on the road and therefore place responsibility on others to see them thus relinquishing their own accountibility to ride safe?

What proportion of biker deaths/accidents are due to not be seen by cagers?


And does anyone know if the colour of bike has any effect on being noticed on the road?

[Scuba_Steve]

And does anyone know if the colour of bike has any effect on being noticed on the road?

yea riding a bright pink sports bikes
http://monkeybrandz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Monkey-on-a-pink-motorcycle-funny.jpg

Or being a typical Harley rider are both more likely to get you noticed on the road
http://empiretechnology.co.nz/Santa_Pink_Bike.jpg

[bogan]

lol, survey is back up and I just did it, wtf! I was thinking, you know, this isn't so bad, good to get some of these introductory questions out of the way, then BAM, quiz done, no important questions asked :confused:

I did manage to get in one comment though, when asked why I wouldn't wear high vis


Well it doesn't do bugger all, so why would I wear it? Like asking if a want to ride in a goddam pink tutu and coconut bra isn't it

[Harry the Barstard]

Do you guys remember spokey doekeys?

Hi viz jackets can eat a fat one! Spokey doekeys are the silver bullet. They came in multiple fluro colours and will make a cool clicking sound when you are going slow.

Boom!

[Crasherfromwayback]

How 'bout you do a fucking survey on wire rope barriers.

R.I.P to the rider that died today hitting one.

[MrKiwi]

In response to the enquiries about this study:

We are a group of 4th year medical students undertaking the study as part of our course. We are receiving no funding from outside the University. MOTO NZ are the client and will be receiving a copy of the report. However, the project is being conducted independent of MOTO NZ and they have no influence on our grades for the project.

For those who do not believe that there is a benefit to wearing high visibility clothing, please list this under the "other" category on the question regarding what you would consider a barrier to wearing high-vis clothing.

Also, this is just one component of our study. We are also conducting key informant and public interviews, as well as gathering other quantitative data.

Thanks again for your responses.

MotoNZ is the client? This is news to me. I am a council member of MotoNZ and a member of the proposals subcommittee. I am not aware that we are the client of this work and as far as I am aware we have not been asked to endorse it and I doubt we would at this point in time.

I completed your survey and on the last question noted to you that the research suggests the best bang for bucks on conspicuity is likely to be with the bike and not necessarily the rider. The jury is well and truly still out on hi viz jackets. Visibility can be defined as the ability to see an object against the background when you know where the object is. Conspicuity can be defined as the ability for an object to stand out against the background when you are not looking for it and don't know the object is there ie grabs your attention. In certain circumstances high viz jackets/vests are not that visible let alone conspicious.

We would be grateful if you could retract/correct the assertion that MotoNZ is the client for this work. We are likely to be interested in the results just as we are interested in the results of any research.

David Crawford.

[GrayWolf]

MotoNZ is the client? This is news to me. I am a council member of MotoNZ and a member of the proposals subcommittee. I am not aware that we are the client of this work and as far as I am aware we have not been asked to endorse it and I doubt we would at this point in time.

I completed your survey and on the last question noted to you that the research suggests the best bang for bucks on conspicuity is likely to be with the bike and not necessarily the rider. The jury is well and truly still out on hi viz jackets. Visibility can be defined at the ability to see an object against the background when you know where the object is. Conspicuity can be defined at the ability for an object to stand out against the background when you are not looking for it and don't know the object is there ie grabs your attention. In certain circumstances high viz jackets/vests are not that visible let alone conspicious.

We would be grateful if you could retract/correct the assertion that MotoNZ is the client for this work. We are likely to be interested in the results just as we are interested in the results of any research.

David Crawford.

Given the statement made by David Crawford, that MOTO NZ are not the client at the end of this 'research paper' I would ask the Moderators to please
to please investigate that the group posting this survey in KB are indeed who they claim to be. I suddenly smell rotting flesh!!

[MrKiwi]

I'm not implying this research is not valid or that the group doing it is not bona fide. It's more that I had not heard of it until yesterday and I would have expected to if I'm one of the people supposedly going to be the client of it!

Research into attitudes towards hi viz gear is a worthwhile subject, it would be nice to have some valid data on people's perceptions and attitudes.

[rastuscat]

The thing is Pete:
If hi-vis stops somebody from pulling out on front of a bike etc it is highly unlikely the potentially offending driver is going to follow you home to say "Wow man, that hi-vis really works, Iwouldn't have noticed you if you hadn't been wearing it"

So measuring its effectiveness is going to be almost impossible.


It's hard to measure that which doesn't happen.

It's hard to know how effective hi viz is.

It's hard to give up donuts.

So I haven't.

[GrayWolf]

I'm not implying this research is not valid or that the group doing it is not bona fide. It's more that I had not heard of it until yesterday and I would have expected to if I'm one of the people supposedly going to be the client of it!

Research into attitudes towards hi viz gear is a worthwhile subject, it would be nice to have some valid data on people's perceptions and attitudes.

whether the research IS bona fide or not as far as a valid student project, I know from having done a University research project that if you intend to focus your project on a client, you are supposed to have been in discussion with them before formulating the hypothesis. So if you have no knowledge of this research, it causes me a reason for concern as to the claims made and its real target client??


As for research into attitudes, you are a member of this forum... you have a fantastic opportunity to conduct this research or a survey yourself, AND get a fantastic cross section of population here. So, why not do it yourselves?

[Usarka]

It's hard to measure that which doesn't happen.

It's hard to know how effective hi viz is.

It's hard to give up donuts.

So I haven't.

Exactly. It's also hard to know how safe red bikes are opposed to green bikes. So should we pass a law saying red bikes are compulsory because "it sounds about right"?

[jellywrestler]

the thing that sticks out most about the impending compulsary wearing of dayglo stuff is while a few learners do wear them so we can look out for them as newcomers, they will become indistinguishable (unless the l plate becomes a little flashing light...)

[MrKiwi]

the thing that sticks out most about the impending compulsary wearing of dayglo stuff is while a few learners do wear them so we can look out for them as newcomers, they will become indistinguishable (unless the l plate becomes a little flashing light...)

I'm not aware of any official initiatives to make the wearing of hi viz clothing in New Zealand compulsory, am I missing something? And before you answer I should point out I have a reasonably good understanding of most road safety programs across government, particularly those related to motorbike safety, although it is hard to keep up with everything.

Just intrigued as to whether this is based on best guess or something more solid?</SPAN>

[Scuba_Steve]

I'm not aware of any official initiatives to make the wearing of hi viz clothing in New Zealand compulsory, am I missing something? And before you answer I should point out I have a reasonably good understanding of most road safety programs across government, particularly those related to motorbike safety, although it is hard to keep up with everything.

Just intrigued as to whether this is based on best guess or something more solid?</SPAN>

The official "push" has started, anyone who can't see that obviously can't see the forrest for the trees (it's even mentioned in the "safer journeys for motorcycling")


Use of protective clothing (eg hi-vis jackets)

But depending on what you mean by "official initiatives" that may not have been started???
We have started our move towards compulsory hi-vis, research has been started, promotion & education is starting up... sure NZ will probably sit back a couple years push the propaganda, most likely wait for either UK or Oz to adopt it before forcing upon us here. But make no mistake it is coming, the "push" has begun.

[SimJen]

Hi Viz in my view makes no difference.
I've been on bright bikes with bright gear and noisy pipes and people still pull out in front of you......why! well I'll tell you why, they have already committed themselves to the intersection, their brain already believes nothing is coming because they must get home or they are late for an appointment or they are meeting up with a hottie from NZDating or something!
And as for the people that see you coming and go anyway, you can see it click in their eyes, they then go, then stop a little, then just give it the berries anyway. At least they see you I suppose, but it still doesn't register in that one brain cell that needs to learn how to work again!
It happens whether you're on a bicycle, motorbike, car, bus, truck.....whatever, people need to realise the risks, drive properly and have regard for other road users, simple as that.
If we ride as if everyone wants us dead then we might all live a little longer!

[p.dath]

It's hard to measure that which doesn't happen.

It's hard to know how effective hi viz is.


Ahh, but it does happen - we have riders who were high-viz, and we have riders who don't. So it can be measured. So far to date those measurements have indicated it doesn't make much difference.

[Crasherfromwayback]

or they are meeting up with a hottie from NZDating !

Oxymoron!!

[bogan]

I'm not aware of any official initiatives to make the wearing of hi viz clothing in New Zealand compulsory, am I missing something? And before you answer I should point out I have a reasonably good understanding of most road safety programs across government, particularly those related to motorbike safety, although it is hard to keep up with everything.

Just intrigued as to whether this is based on best guess or something more solid?</SPAN>

The preamble for it is on your website...


The visibility project

Council has reviewed all submissions to its RFP for the Visibility Project and it’s on track for a contract being negotiated during April.

The first stage will pull together in one report all that’s been done overseas and in New Zealand, and review what’s proved effective and what is emerging technology that might work in New Zealand.

We want this to lead to an innovative project, so we are taking care to get the focus to reflect this

I'd certainly like to believe it will lead to an innovative project, but considering what you guys have spent my glove money on so far, I won't be holding my breath.


Ahh, but it does happen - we have riders who were high-viz, and we have riders who don't. So it can be measured. So far to date those measurements have indicated it doesn't make much difference.

Not that simple, the demographic of riders that wear high vis is certainly not indicative of the overall rider group. This is the weak point that makes the results of all those studies useless.

[Scuba_Steve]

Not that simple, the demographic of riders that wear high vis is certainly not indicative of the overall rider group. This is the weak point that makes the results of all those studies useless.

End of the day you can do as much study as you want, fact remains "hi-vis" doesn't work, it's useless!.
If people can't see a huge piece of steel weighing in at over 82,000 tonne with at-least another 328,000 tonne following, making more noise than a pack of Harleys without exhausts, standing 3.7m tall with the whole front painted bright yellow to be "hi-vis" ...there's a shit show in hell they're gonna see a tiny little biker with a bright yellow jacket & a headlight on.

[MrKiwi]

The preamble for it is on your website...



I'd certainly like to believe it will lead to an innovative project, but considering what you guys have spent my glove money on so far, I won't be holding my breath.



...

I tend to think it's going to be a fairly innovative project, but then you might expect me to say that. Only time will tell.

.. signing out on this subject for a while... Cheers.

[Bassmatt]

I tend to think it's going to be a fairly innovative project, but then you might expect me to say that. Only time will tell.

.. signing out on this subject for a while... Cheers.

I have a bad feeling.....

[Eddieb]

I would suggest you all voice your concerns on the survey to the contact listed in the first post. Moaning on here is not going to get visibility of those who need to see it.

Dr Richard Jaine
Department of Public Health, University of Otago, Wellington
Phone 04 918 6155
Email: richard.jaine@otago.ac.nz

Personally I see no added value in wearing bright/reflective gear. It didn't stop the asian driver pulling out from a stationary line of traffic into a line of traffic flowing at 60km/h and almost taking me out about 30 minutes ago. I was wearing a bright orange jacket and have a big white patch on the front of my bike with my headlight on.
I reckon I had about 2 foot max between me and the front left corner of her car and I swerved to avoid her.

[R-Soul]

No amount of hi-vis or reflective tape is going to help the stupid riders that have accidents on corners all by themselves by losing control. These fools make up about half of bike accidents alone.

Try getting these morons on a tack and teaching them to control their bikes properly.

(I count myself amongst these fuckwits).

[Berries]

I have a bad feeling.....
I think strobe lights at night would look quite cool.

[tri boy]

I think it's sad that this is the best that MotoNZ can come up with. I expected more from Gareth :facepalm:


Don'texpect too much from that publicity whore.
He never has had the wider bike community at the front of his plans.
He talks alot, but never seems to complete much.
And he is responsible for growing a bad stash.
Some countries shoot men for that.

[Katman]

And he is responsible for growing a bad stash.
Some countries shoot men for that.

Change your dealer then.

[Milts]

To give people a little perspective:

This is a group of medical students completing their public health run. They were handed this topic and told to find out the perspectives of riders on this issue. If you have a problem take it up with those setting the assignment rather than the students who are doing the research. They did not pick the topic, or the way in which it is phrased.

I'm sure as part of this they will be doing a thorough literature review, which will highlight any research re effectiveness, contrast, motion camouflage etc. That aspect is not the topic being investigated: as has been stated their mandate is to look at the beliefs and attitudes of the riding population.

As for funding, I can personally attest to the fact that they have none. This is a group of students who have been given an assignment as part of their 4th year at medical school.

Furthermore they are not trying to undermine your rights, nor create legislation. Their mandate is to find facts, not make decisions. I don't understand why they are getting so much shit. Maybe I'm missing something?

[rastuscat]

Ahh, but it does happen - we have riders who were high-viz, and we have riders who don't. So it can be measured. So far to date those measurements have indicated it doesn't make much difference.

Of course it makes a difference.

I wear hi-viz and I look like a knob. I don't normally look like a knob.

Voila, that's the difference.

[Kickaha]

I don't normally look like a knob.


I'm not sure you should put money on that

[jellywrestler]

To give people a little perspective:

This is a group of medical students completing their public health run. They were handed this topic and told to find out the perspectives of riders on this issue. If you have a problem take it up with those setting the assignment rather than the students who are doing the research. They did not pick the topic, or the way in which it is phrased.

I'm sure as part of this they will be doing a thorough literature review, which will highlight any research re effectiveness, contrast, motion camouflage etc. That aspect is not the topic being investigated: as has been stated their mandate is to look at the beliefs and attitudes of the riding population.

As for funding, I can personally attest to the fact that they have none. This is a group of students who have been given an assignment as part of their 4th year at medical school.

Furthermore they are not trying to undermine your rights, nor create legislation. Their mandate is to find facts, not make decisions. I don't understand why they are getting so much shit. Maybe I'm missing something?
yeah but if their survey is flawed in the first place don't you think they'd like to know? The word Student i thought implied that they were learning

[Milts]

yeah but if their survey is flawed in the first place don't you think they'd like to know? The word Student i thought implied that they were learning

I'm sure they welcome any valid and specific criticisms of the survey questions (really). However "your survey sucks monkey balls" doesn't really facillitate learning.

[Usarka]

I'm sure they welcome any valid and specific criticisms of the survey questions (really). However "your survey sucks monkey balls" doesn't really facillitate learning.

And people's learnings shouldn't be used to help governments (and it's agencies) form policy.

[Milts]

And people's learnings shouldn't be used to help governments (and it's agencies) form policy.

Would you rather policies were formed based on what the politician's 4 year old tells them to do :confused: or what their mate who stands to gain several million dollars asks of them? Or maybe they should just legislate whatever happens to work well in their dreams? I for one am all for evidence being taken into account (along with common sense + public opinion) when making policy.

Obviously any study which does inform decision making should be thoroughly scrutinised for accuracy. Which again is not entirely the job of the poor bastards who were handed the assignment, it's more up to their supervisors...

[Madness]

...their mandate is to look at the beliefs and attitudes of the riding population.
blah, blah, blah
Their mandate is to find facts...

So they're looking for beliefs and attitudes on the one hand and facts on the other. I'm glad we're all clear on that.

[Milts]

So they're looking for beliefs and attitudes on the one hand and facts on the other. I'm glad we're all clear on that.

It is a fact that riders believe X or they believe Y or they think Z. This is what the research project is about. Is that a difficult concept?

[Madness]

I reckon you're rooting one of the students.

Can't wait to see the results, it'll probably have something like "0.001% think it's gay" Well, thank fuck this ground-breaking research is being done. How did we manage so long without it?

[rustic101]

To give people a little perspective:

This is a group of medical students completing their public health run. They were handed this topic and told to find out the perspectives of riders on this issue. If you have a problem take it up with those setting the assignment rather than the students who are doing the research. They did not pick the topic, or the way in which it is phrased.

I'm sure as part of this they will be doing a thorough literature review, which will highlight any research re effectiveness, contrast, motion camouflage etc. That aspect is not the topic being investigated: as has been stated their mandate is to look at the beliefs and attitudes of the riding population.

As for funding, I can personally attest to the fact that they have none. This is a group of students who have been given an assignment as part of their 4th year at medical school.

Furthermore they are not trying to undermine your rights, nor create legislation. Their mandate is to find facts, not make decisions. I don't understand why they are getting so much shit. Maybe I'm missing something?

Well said.

I'm being interviewed tomorrow at the School of Medicine so I can at least be of some assistance to these guys task.

From my perspective this is about a group of young health professionals trying to get ahead. Heck some of them may even get into a position where they are solely responsible for saving lives. It could even shape their personal opinions of riders. If I can assist with that then hey why not have say. What happens with that information is actually irrelevant worse case something good may come of it.

[Usarka]

Would you rather policies were formed based on what the politician's 4 year old tells them to do :confused: or what their mate who stands to gain several million dollars asks of them? Or maybe they should just legislate whatever happens to work well in their dreams? I for one am all for evidence being taken into account (along with common sense + public opinion) when making policy.

No, from people who are qualified.

I didn't realise it was such a tricky concept.

[Ocean1]

No, from people who are qualified.

I didn't realise it was such a tricky concept.

The real question is: qualified in what. If all you've got is a hammer...

Try presenting the same patient with the same symptoms to several different specialists, (Ive watched this happen). Briefly, they each see a cure in terms of their own field of expertise.

This matters. If you're after the "correct" solution then you'll never get a definitive answer. If you're interested in shaping policy based on a "correct" solution then choose your experts carefully.

[Lelitu]

No, from people who are qualified.

I didn't realise it was such a tricky concept.

of course, they're 4th year students. that means this work they're doing
is a significant portion of the work that will decide if they're qualified or not.

[bogan]

of course, they're 4th year students. that means this work they're doing
is a significant portion of the work that will decide if they're qualified or not.

Everyone seems to be forgetting the part where they claimed to have a government client. Unqualified people should not do projects of such importance.

[Hellzie]

Not sure how that survey will be of much use? Nit many questions and they don't really go into much detail about anything. Ah well, I did my bit. :niceone:

[Zedder]

Not sure how that survey will be of much use? Nit many questions and they don't really go into much detail about anything. Ah well, I did my bit. :niceone:

I think they got a fair bit of additional information from this thread though.

[rustic101]

I think they got a fair bit of additional information from this thread though.

It certainly has answered one of the questions around Attitudes and not necessarily toward Hi-vis lol

[Scuba_Steve]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the part where they claimed to have a government client. Unqualified people should not do projects of such importance.

1stly Why not??? the people making the laws are unqualified, so what difference is it going to make?
2ndly I'd be interested to see such a project from a "qualified" person, let me know when you find 1

[Madness]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the part where they claimed to have a government client.

Everyone seems to be forgetting the part where a member representing (Ali-G stylez) said government client denied all knowledge of any association with the project.

:corn:

[bogan]

1stly Why not??? the people making the laws are unqualified, so what difference is it going to make?
2ndly I'd be interested to see such a project from a "qualified" person, let me know when you find 1

The people making the laws get their information from qualified sources, so they do not need to be qulaified in all areas. The fact that our current law makers are muppets is a different story.
Garbage in, garbage out remember!

[Scuba_Steve]

The people making the laws get their information from qualified sources, so they do not need to be qulaified in all areas. The fact that our current law makers are muppets is a different story.
Garbage in, garbage out remember!

which does bring my biggest problem & a new issue altogether, a controlling Govt department should have some bloody idea of that which they control.
I am still yet to see a qualified minister or Govt department

As for the "Hi-Vis" thing I personally think it's more likely to come down to how much money 3M or DayGlo Color throw at the Govt, or how much the Govt predicts they can make off the non-compliance rather than any actual facts

[p.dath]

Of course it makes a difference.

I wear hi-viz and I look like a knob. I don't normally look like a knob.

Voila, that's the difference.

Haha. But your making the same mistake again. How do you know you don't normaly look like a knob? :)

[manxkiwi]

Can't see what they'll gain from that survey. 'What do you wear?', 'what would you consider wearing?'. That's about it. As has been said, people will fail to see a truck! A bike's got no chance. You basically look after yourself on the road.

I guess where it becomes compulsory, the new lines will be: 'I don't know how they didn't see me. I had my flouro on!!'.

[SimJen]

whats annoying tho is I had cheap leathers for many years and finally managed to get myself a nice set
My Dainese one piece is pretty bright, in tricolore italian colours. Its more than bright enough in my opinion, to wear any gay hi viz will wreck the awesomeness that I paid for!
I just won't do it, even if its law!
FTP! :devil2:

[Asher]

whats annoying tho is I had cheap leathers for many years and finally managed to get myself a nice set
My Dainese one piece is pretty bright, in tricolore italian colours. Its more than bright enough in my opinion, to wear any gay hi viz will wreck the awesomeness that I paid for!
I just won't do it, even if its law!
FTP! :devil2:

I too just got a spidi 2 piece suit; orange, white and black with reflective labels, my black alpinestars jacket also has reflective labels on the arms, back and chest. How exactly are these less visible than a hi vis vest.

Perhaps if they were to come compulsory i will throw away all my leathers, boots and gloves since apparently all i need is my helmet and hi vis vest and i will be immune to crashing.

[GrayWolf]

It is a fact that riders believe X or they believe Y or they think Z. This is what the research project is about. Is that a difficult concept?

Hmmmm reading the survey and having completed it..it it a basic yes/no do you/dont you or quantitative survey.. it doesnt ask why, think or believe.. untill you get to the 'comment' box. So no I do not agree with the above statement....

[Fast Eddie]

I'v already done the survey multiple times saying its gay all round.

what a shite study, I do better shit with the rats at uni

[Usarka]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the part where a member representing (Ali-G stylez) said government client denied all knowledge of any association with the project.

:corn:

You mean motonz are misleading us? :gob:

[rustic101]

Dear Diary,

Today was a little bit of a let down. I went along to the Otago School of Medicine to be interviewed by a group of 4th year medical students who were given a research task to complete as part of their academic study. Turns out their supervisor gave them a topic of ‘An investigation of motorcycle rider use of and attitudes to high visibility gear’ to research. Yes the survey wasn't the best but life's about learning.

They intentionally came to KB thinking this would be the collective font of knowledge and that they would receive a well balanced and mature response..... Boy did they get a great response. Everyone on KB decried and vilified them, how dare they try and get a head with their research study because they raised a topic of rider visibility. After all KB members said they were spies, they were working for the evil MOTO NZ, that Gareth Morgan and his cronies would be hiding under the tables, behind the curtains. Shit worse yet!!! The Govt would pass legislation forcing Harley Riders to wear fluro vests.

But dear diary when I turned up I was met by two professional students. They were well prepared; gosh they even listened to what I had to say around alternatives to Hi-Vis and rider conspicuity (reflexiveness) and that hi-vis was not a safety item to protect riders. They even took notes when I talked about things that were not related to hi-vis but about rider safety and when I talked about a collective approach from all road users towards education, safety and responsibility as well as topics like, looking but not seeing. They were even interested in learning more about motorcyclists (collectively i.e scooters) to support their research project so they could complete a phase of their study to become medical practitioners.

After I settled in I slipped off my tin foil hat. There was no conspiracy, no Dr Morgan jumping out with his abacas or manipulated stats, not even any evil MOTO or ACC Plonkers writing notes behind the curtain to hand to the nasty Govt. KB promise so much mystery around these hippies and wana b spies for the Govt but alas it was not to be.

My dear diary what I did find out was that one individual (no names) from MOTO NZ originally approached the research team at the commencement of the task. Shortly after the ruckas on here MOTO NZ quickly withdrew desperate to back out. The funny thing is that the research project never needed a ‘client’. Never the less it’s great to see MOTO NZ trying to highjack something other than our extra ACC levies. No doubt I bet they would have renamed this work, claimed they completed it, then manipulated the data to suit their cause.

On a positive note. This research project is reported as being one of the most commented on and completed surveys in the history of the Medical Schools existence, with over three hundred respondents to date. That’s not to mention the positive and negative comments on here all of which have provided a small snap shot of some rider’s thoughts and attitude towards hi-vis. More importantly believe it or not these are 'just a group of students' who were given a task to complete their study. In my opinion they have done well and full credit to them to date for taking it on. What a learning experience.

O well dear diary I need to go and have a mug of concrete to harden me up for the pounding I'm about to receive from all the :weird:KB disbelievers.

Thank you for listening.

[Bald Eagle]

You lost me at "two professional students." why don't they get real jobs instead of working on degrees which will make them overqualified for slinging burgers at Maccas or hopping on the next plane to Oz. Good for a laugh though.

[Madness]

I believe (can't reveal my source here I'm sorry) that some of the students are smokin' hot. Any pics?

[bogan]

I believe (can't reveal my source here I'm sorry) that some of the students are smokin' hot. Any pics?

Here's one!

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lurdkrsNoD1qb1t2go1_500.jpg

[rustic101]

You lost me at "two professional students." why don't they get real jobs instead of working on degrees which will make them overqualified for slinging burgers at Maccas or hopping on the next plane to Oz. Good for a laugh though.

God forbid you get sick or have a crash ;) :eek:

[MrKiwi]

Dear Diary,

Today was a little bit of a let down. I went along to the Otago School of Medicine to be interviewed by a group of 4th year medical students who were given a research task to complete as part of their academic study. Turns out their supervisor gave them a topic of ‘An investigation of motorcycle rider use of and attitudes to high visibility gear’ to research. Yes the survey wasn't the best but life's about learning.

They intentionally came to KB thinking this would be the collective font of knowledge and that they would receive a well balanced and mature response..... Boy did they get a great response. Everyone on KB decried and vilified them, how dare they try and get a head with their research study because they raised a topic of rider visibility. After all KB members said they were spies, they were working for the evil MOTO NZ, that Gareth Morgan and his cronies would be hiding under the tables, behind the curtains. Shit worse yet!!! The Govt would pass legislation forcing Harley Riders to wear fluro vests.

But dear diary when I turned up I was met by two professional students. They were well prepared; gosh they even listened to what I had to say around alternatives to Hi-Vis and rider conspicuity (reflexiveness) and that hi-vis was not a safety item to protect riders. They even took notes when I talked about things that were not related to hi-vis but about rider safety and when I talked about a collective approach from all road users towards education, safety and responsibility as well as topics like, looking but not seeing. They were even interested in learning more about motorcyclists (collectively i.e scooters) to support their research project so they could complete a phase of their study to become medical practitioners.

After I settled in I slipped off my tin foil hat. There was no conspiracy, no Dr Morgan jumping out with his abacas or manipulated stats, not even any evil MOTO or ACC Plonkers writing notes behind the curtain to hand to the nasty Govt. KB promise so much mystery around these hippies and wana b spies for the Govt but alas it was not to be.

My dear diary what I did find out was that one individual (no names) from MOTO NZ originally approached the research team at the commencement of the task. Shortly after the ruckas on here MOTO NZ quickly withdrew desperate to back out. The funny thing is that the research project never needed a ‘client’. Never the less it’s great to see MOTO NZ trying to highjack something other than our extra ACC levies. No doubt I bet they would have renamed this work, claimed they completed it, then manipulated the data to suit their cause.

On a positive note. This research project is reported as being one of the most commented on and completed surveys in the history of the Medical Schools existence, with over three hundred respondents to date. That’s not to mention the positive and negative comments on here all of which have provided a small snap shot of some rider’s thoughts and attitude towards hi-vis. More importantly believe it or not these are 'just a group of students' who were given a task to complete their study. In my opinion they have done well and full credit to them to date for taking it on. What a learning experience.

O well dear diary I need to go and have a mug of concrete to harden me up for the pounding I'm about to receive from all the :weird:KB disbelievers.

Thank you for listening.

Dear Diary
Thank you for you lucid expose.

On the subject of that horrid evil organisation called MotoNZ I subsequently discovered yesterday afternoon that someone at ACC thought MotoNZ would be happy to be the client for this work. Tis a shame that the views of the proposal subcommittee of MotoNZ were not sought, let alone informed of this. Nevertheless, and as indicated earlier, we remain interested in the views and research of others and have noted the varied and passionate views expressed in this forum.

Your discussion of alternatives is well judged.

[Old Steve]

I'd wear fluoro Barbi pink from head to toe if I thought it'd give me an increase of 0.1% in my survival chances.

Maybe cagers don't look or see us, but I take every chance to increase my visibility - bright orange bike (thank you Suzuki!), fluoro yellow hi-viz vest, white helmet, headlights on high beam during the day. And to those who say high beam annoys other motorists, to be annoyed they have to have seen it.

I'm wondering if something like a lime green fur mohawk across the top of my helmet would help, or is that just my old punk leanings coming out again?

[Madness]

headlights on high beam during the day. And to those who say high beam annoys other motorists, to be annoyed they have to have seen it.

That's not very clever.

[Old Steve]

That's not very clever.

Why isn't it? If it makes me even slightly more visible then I'm ahead in the survival stakes, along with my cautious vigilance of other road users and the conditions.

And if you're thinking some other motorist is going to be so incensed that I've got my headlight on high that they're going to deliberately ram me - then why hasn't that ever happened to someone who's forgotten that their headlights were on high beam, they usually only get a flick of high beam back at them (and I've only had one car flick their high beam at me in two years of riding with my lights on high beam).

[Madness]

Why isn't it?

Beacuse it's a distraction to other road users. From the description of your bike and riding gear I'd hazard to guess you're perfectly visible already, possibly even to a blind person. High beams distract drivers and distracted drivers cause accidents, end of story.

So long as you're alright though, eh? :facepalm:

[Jantar]

Why isn't it? If it makes me even slightly more visible then I'm ahead in the survival stakes, along with my cautious vigilance of other road users and the conditions.....

I wonder if you're the rider I almost had a head-on with because I couldn't see your indicator flashing. If so, I was blinded by your headlight on High beam. :nono:

[bogan]

Why isn't it? If it makes me even slightly more visible then I'm ahead in the survival stakes, along with my cautious vigilance of other road users and the conditions.

And if you're thinking some other motorist is going to be so incensed that I've got my headlight on high that they're going to deliberately ram me - then why hasn't that ever happened to someone who's forgotten that their headlights were on high beam, they usually only get a flick of high beam back at them (and I've only had one car flick their high beam at me in two years of riding with my lights on high beam).

You may be decreasing the risk that they hit you, but dazzling them with headlights on high beam increases the risk they hit something else. Its kind of the whole reason vehicles have dual beams in the first place...

[300weatherby]

Here's one!



:spanking:

[crystalball]

Have filled it out, All I can say is I ride in the day with my headlight on this alone makes me comfortable enougth, At night when riding Auckland to Tauranga every 3rd weekend I wear high viz vest which makes me comfortable enougth.

[oneofsix]

Have filled it out, All I can say is I ride in the day with my headlight on this alone makes me comfortable enougth, At night when riding Auckland to Tauranga every 3rd weekend I wear high viz vest which makes me comfortable enougth.

Hi Viz or reflective? Yellow day glo turns grey under sodium lights at night. Orange is virtually black until lit by white light, its not grey under sodium but not much better.

Saw two bikers riding into Wellington before dawn one morning, one had white panels on their jacket, the other yellow day glo hi-viz stuff. The one with the white panels was easiest to see, not the hi-viz one. I saw them at the Mobile petrol station before they left, hence why I knew the true colours of their jackets and we past each other several times on the ride in so this isn't just a single sighting observation.

Fine if you want to wear hi-viz but don't believe all the hype, you may be no better off than the rider in the black gear. Personally I suspect clothing with dark and pale colours are likely to be better, or the black jacket with reflective panels.

[GrayWolf]

Dear Diary,

Today was a little bit of a let down. I went along to the Otago School of Medicine to be interviewed by a group of 4th year medical students who were given a research task to complete as part of their academic study. Turns out their supervisor gave them a topic of ‘An investigation of motorcycle rider use of and attitudes to high visibility gear’ to research. Yes the survey wasn't the best but life's about learning.

They intentionally came to KB thinking this would be the collective font of knowledge and that they would receive a well balanced and mature response..... Boy did they get a great response. Everyone on KB decried and vilified them, how dare they try and get a head with their research study because they raised a topic of rider visibility. After all KB members said they were spies, they were working for the evil MOTO NZ, that Gareth Morgan and his cronies would be hiding under the tables, behind the curtains. Shit worse yet!!! The Govt would pass legislation forcing Harley Riders to wear fluro vests.

But dear diary when I turned up I was met by two professional students. They were well prepared; gosh they even listened to what I had to say around alternatives to Hi-Vis and rider conspicuity (reflexiveness) and that hi-vis was not a safety item to protect riders. They even took notes when I talked about things that were not related to hi-vis but about rider safety and when I talked about a collective approach from all road users towards education, safety and responsibility as well as topics like, looking but not seeing. They were even interested in learning more about motorcyclists (collectively i.e scooters) to support their research project so they could complete a phase of their study to become medical practitioners.

On a positive note. This research project is reported as being one of the most commented on and completed surveys in the history of the Medical Schools existence, with over three hundred respondents to date. That’s not to mention the positive and negative comments on here all of which have provided a small snap shot of some rider’s thoughts and attitude towards hi-vis. More importantly believe it or not these are 'just a group of students' who were given a task to complete their study. In my opinion they have done well and full credit to them to date for taking it on. What a learning experience.

Thank you for listening.

No I wont vilify you. In fact I will thank you for going to the Uni and meeting the students.
I agree they have indeed been caught in the middle of a poorly thought situation. As I pointed out, yes the survey isnt 'the best' and I can indeed see MOTO NZ/ACC/TPTB using the data 'incorrectly' as I also pointed out in my response to them. It seems sadly that ACC once again are attempting to steer/hijack the ship? I will now almost put money on it, that the survey will appear sometime in the future to prove we dont wear hi-vis and need protecting from ourselves. On a realistic note, with the range of ages, the level of obvious suspicion towards anything remotely ACC/MOTO NZ/Govt it isnt really surprising that there has been a 'poor reaction' to the survey..... probably made worse with the revelation that MOTO NZ did not 'know' they are the client.
I dont know you or your personal views on Hi Vis, safety etc; but now they have your opinion on this.... maybe it would be worthwhile inviting them to meet several others to get a 'cross section' of population. What to me is more concerning is that
Milts sees this survey as one that is asking us our beliefs and reasons for being pro or anti hi-vis...

QUOTE: Originally Posted by Milts
It is a fact that riders believe X or they believe Y or they think Z. This is what the research project is about. Is that a difficult concept?

That to me is of far greater concern,,, the survey is a 'factual' one yes/no do you wear/dont you wear.... it isnt a 'subjective' survey that asks our beliefs and reasons..... but to follow Milts line of thinking that is exactly how it will be 'misused'.. that we did a survey about our reasons and beliefs for Hi-Vis and presented as maybe their own research........ presented to WHOM and HOW?? is the question I would ask....

[BMWST?]

I believe (can't reveal my source here I'm sorry) that some of the students are smokin' hot. Any pics?


some of them came down to the Anzac day WFA meeting.

[crystalball]

Hi Viz or reflective? Yellow day glo turns grey under sodium lights at night. Orange is virtually black until lit by white light, its not grey under sodium but not much better.

Saw two bikers riding into Wellington before dawn one morning, one had white panels on their jacket, the other yellow day glo hi-viz stuff. The one with the white panels was easiest to see, not the hi-viz one. I saw them at the Mobile petrol station before they left, hence why I knew the true colours of their jackets and we past each other several times on the ride in so this isn't just a single sighting observation.

Fine if you want to wear hi-viz but don't believe all the hype, you may be no better off than the rider in the black gear. Personally I suspect clothing with dark and pale colours are likely to be better, or the black jacket with reflective panels.

Hmm o.k thanks for the tip, its hard to know when wearing it as I am not the one looking at it (yellow vission vest ) yup will leave it home as my one piece suit has reflective material and my ventura bag has a nice strip of reflective tape along it as well. :msn-wink:

[Berries]

And to those who say high beam annoys other motorists, to be annoyed they have to have seen it.
Have you thought about getting a siren as well? Then you could piss off even more people who are no threat to you whatsoever.

[BMWST?]

I'd wear fluoro Barbi pink from head to toe if I thought it'd give me an increase of 0.1% in my survival chances.

Maybe cagers don't look or see us, but I take every chance to increase my visibility - bright orange bike (thank you Suzuki!), fluoro yellow hi-viz vest, white helmet, headlights on high beam during the day. And to those who say high beam annoys other motorists, to be annoyed they have to have seen it.

I'm wondering if something like a lime green fur mohawk across the top of my helmet would help, or is that just my old punk leanings coming out again?

having your high beam on can make it even more difficult for the aforementioned "cager" to judge your speed and or distance away,and your white helmet and dayglo vest may actually be obscured by the glare of the high beam...just sayin

[Asher]

Top gear taking the piss of hi vis


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekpD06P7kiI

[wsm.highvisresearch]

The survey is now closed, thanks to everyone for their feedback and responses

[Asher]

I hope you guys share with us your results and conclusions, many here will be interested.

[Madness]

The survey is now closed, thanks to everyone for their feedback and responses

I do hope you understand that red reputation is just our way of showing that we really do care :msn-wink:

[brp]

Answers in the name - High Visibility Vest

During the day approaching riders wearing a high vis stand out over anything else .....

[oneofsix]

Answers in the name - High Visibility Vest

During the day approaching riders wearing a high vis stand out over anything else .....

You must be a marketing consultants dream customer.

[Berries]

During the day approaching riders wearing a high vis stand out over anything else .....
Why did they even need to bother with a survey?

[brp]

You must be a marketing consultants dream customer.

Nah just going on what my eyes see .....


Why did they even need to bother with a survey?

"Beats me" when its so self explanatory

[oneofsix]

Nah just going on what my eyes see .....



What you think your eyes are seeing. I used to do the same until I analysed what I was doing. Turned out I was seeing the bike, then noticing the hi-viz and then noting the hi-viz. The hi-viz wasn't actually helping my see the bike or notice the bike.

[brp]

All I know is when in area's like coastal hill riding and ya look over in the distance the hi vis stands out like dogs bollocks where if the rider was in black good chance they would just blend into the background.

Same on a straight road - its the Hi Vis I'm seeing first not the bike , bike just a skinny narrow dot coming towards me compared to the large surface area of the hi vis vest .....

[Bassmatt]

All I know is when in area's like coastal hill riding and ya look over in the distance the hi vis stands out like dogs bollocks where if the rider was in black good chance they would just blend into the background.

Same on a straight road - its the Hi Vis I'm seeing first not the bike , bike just a skinny narrow dot coming towards me compared to the large surface area of the hi vis vest .....

Of course thats where we are at most danger of being hit.....when we are off in the distance. :facepalm:

[brp]

More like warning that the hi visser will be coming your way at some point and the whole point ......

[Jantar]

More like warning that the hi visser will be coming your way at some point and the whole point ......

You may be right, but like most motorcyclists I would prefer to see changes that WILL make a difference to motorcycle safety. Hi Vis will not.

[SimJen]

You may be right, but like most motorcyclists I would prefer to see changes that WILL make a difference to motorcycle safety. Hi Vis will not.

exactly, like in the UK there is the whole "Look for bikes" campaign on tv and in magazines etc.
I'd prefer to watch ads on actual road safety than stupid "ghost chips" and pointless "mantrol" BS.

[brp]

You may be right, but like most motorcyclists I would prefer to see changes that WILL make a difference to motorcycle safety. Hi Vis will not.

If you can be seen more easily and put precious time between you and another motorist for reactions its got to be safer .... one of many examples is where ya have parked cars and someone is pulling out of a shopping complex and their view is obstructed, you are coming at an angle to them and cause their vision is obstructed the flicker of the day glow can be enough for them to see you instead of just blending into the environment.

"Ask farmers why they use bright orange dazzle on their flock"

[oneofsix]

"Ask farmers why they use bright orange dazzle on their flock"

I must have been in the city too long. Sheep didn't used to have headlights :eek:

[SimJen]

If you can be seen more easily and put precious time between you and another motorist for reactions its got to be safer .... one of many examples is where ya have parked cars and someone is pulling out of a shopping complex and their view is obstructed, you are coming at an angle to them and cause their vision is obstructed the flicker of the day glow can be enough for them to see you instead of just blending into the environment.

"Ask farmers why they use bright orange dazzle on their flock"

So if a driver can't see you from 2m away even with hi-viz and he fails to notice you with his window down and even a loud pipe on your bike, then hi-viz alone will cure this.....can't see it sorry. From my experience and many others it just won't do what its said to!
Its not the visual aspect! its the fact that many drivers approach intersections not wanting to stop or expecting a car or a bike etc NOT to be there!
Their lack of immediate co-ordination more times than not, see's them just go anyway!! We've all seen it, been hit by it, expect it!

[Jantar]

If you can be seen more easily and put precious time between you and another motorist for reactions its got to be safer .... one of many examples is where ya have parked cars and someone is pulling out of a shopping complex and their view is obstructed, you are coming at an angle to them and cause their vision is obstructed the flicker of the day glow can be enough for them to see you instead of just blending into the environment.

"Ask farmers why they use bright orange dazzle on their flock"
Its rather hard to look past a headlight and se Hi Vis. The only time I notice riders with Hi Vis is when I'm catching up to them, never from front on.

OK, I've asked myself why I use bright orange dazzle on my sheep? The answer is "I don't!"

Next question?

[Bassmatt]

More like warning that the hi visser will be coming your way at some point and the whole point ......

Yeah right. Many car drivers can't remember to use their indicators, stop at stop signs, stay on their side of the centre line while cornering, etc and you expect them to remember they saw a flash of high vis sometime previously :rofl:

[brp]

I must have been in the city too long. Sheep didn't used to have headlights :eek:

They come close to it in the uk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZjTQjIxhuM


Are you going to be seen less by wearing a hi vis ?

[Jantar]

I believe the myth about Hi Vis and brightly coloured riding gear came about from a clause in a later summary of the 1981 Hurt report.

13. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.

However a detailed read of the origional report shows that no such claim was made. What was shown is that the effect of colour could not be determined, and was expected to be insignificant. The same conclusion was reached for both motorcycle colour and rider's clothing. The greatest improvement in safety was to have the headlight on, but by doing so hid any effect of colour of either the motorcycle or riding gear. The actual report replaced the word "and" that I've highlighted with the word "or".

[brp]

Yeah headlight the oil too, each to their own , all I'm going by is my personal experience, when Im sitting up high in my old terrano and scanning the road backwards and forwards I just stop and lock on to the orange hi vis - I'm not consciously driving going round now where's an orange hi vis, the lime green ones don't see to they right there .... tend to blend into background a lot, could be my eye just akin to orange dazzle family

[Scuba_Steve]

when Im sitting up high in my old terrano and scanning the road backwards and forwards I just stop and lock on to the orange hi vis

which is the possible danger with them & why in some groups are nicknamed the "hit me I'm here vest". Target fixation, the same ability that allows people to hit the only post in k's of nothingness
Also hi-vis can become invisible during sunrise/sunset that too is a danger

The result we should want at the end of day is to be seen but not noticed :sunny:

[brp]

The result we should want at the end of day is to be seen but not noticed :sunny:

Good point - I'm seeing the hi vis hundreds of meters away, does bright orange "scream" hazard ? Humans not attracted to perceived hazards

[nodrog]

"Ask farmers why they use bright orange dazzle on their flock"

To tell which ones have been rooted.

What the fuck has that got to do with riding a motorcycle?

[Maha]

Yeah headlight the oil too, each to their own , all I'm going by is my personal experience, when Im sitting up high in my old terrano and scanning the road backwards and forwards I just stop and lock on to the orange hi vis - I'm not consciously driving going round now where's an orange hi vis, the lime green ones don't see to they right there .... tend to blend into background a lot, could be my eye just akin to orange dazzle family

Would something like this blend into the backbround?

http://www.fc-moto.de/WebRoot/FCMotoDB/Shops/10207048/4EDF/6A56/FDE4/D290/B6AD/3E70/5055/1361/Revit-Horizon-HV-Textiljacke.jpg

Those cheap so called fluoro wrap around vest things are good for fuck all in my opinion.
I beleive there is the right gear for the job if needed.
People just need to get past the idea that, Hi Viz means spending $14.95 at the local building suppliers.

The real deal...http://www.fc-moto.de/WebRoot/FCMotoDB/Shops/10207048/4EE0/9FAB/ADEC/021B/0786/3E70/5055/6AB3/Revit-Athos-Air.jpg

[brp]

Definitely flew over your head

[brp]

Would something like this blend into the backbround?

http://www.fc-moto.de/WebRoot/FCMotoDB/Shops/10207048/4EDF/6A56/FDE4/D290/B6AD/3E70/5055/1361/Revit-Horizon-HV-Textiljacke.jpg

Those cheap so called fluoro wrap around vest things are good for fuck all in my opinion.
I beleive there is the right gear for the job if needed.
People just need to get past the idea that, Hi Viz means spending $14.95 at the local building suppliers.

Nah bob the builder ones stand out great .... better than kermit the frog coming along the road

[brp]

Need that kermit the frog jacket in hi glow dazzle orange :D

[p.dath]

... all I'm going by is my personal experience, when Im sitting up high in my old terrano and scanning the road backwards and forwards I just stop and lock on to the orange hi vis - I'm not consciously driving going round now where's an orange hi vis ...

There is a famous German behavioral psychologist called Bernt Spiegel. He has this great experiment where he has a circle with A B C D written like on it. A & B are opposite each other, likewise with C & D (they are at the clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9). Then he asks a person to hold a pendulum above the circle and to try and hold it still.

He then aks them to think "A & B" and keep repeating it in their head. Invariable what happens is the sub-cortical section of the brain takes over (the bit that does things without thinking about it), and the person starts swinging the pendulum between A & B - even though the more conscious cortical section of the brain is telling them to keep their hand still.

And this is exactly what happens when someone "locks" onto something with their eyes.

If I understand Bernst correct, this is one of the reasons why when someone on a motorcycle gets into trouble on a corner, and look where they think they are going to crash - and then do. Because even though their conscious (cortical layer) of the brain is telling them not to, the sub-cortical layer takes over and makes sure they crash inot what they are looking at.


So know what when you "lock" onto something that is is most likely your cortical brain layer doing this. And as soon as you find your doing something without thinking then your sub-cortical brain layer has taken over - and once that happens it is very hard to stop. Mostly what happens in this situation your cortical layer changes to "monitoring" only, and can only observe what the sub-cortical layer does (hence the reason you can't stop your self riding off a corner on a road once you have "locked" on to a crash object - but you can monitor it and sure do know what is going to happen!).

[p.dath]

And you want to know the really scary bit? The sub-cortical layer in this situation works by being influenced by mirror nuerons. The scary bit is these nuerons can be fired not by just your cortical [thinking] brain layer - but watching someone else is enough to make them fire as well - without engaging your own thinking cortical brain.

So if the person goes off the corner in front of you, your mirror neuron's start firing and try and make the sub-cortical layer respond in the same way!!! Your likely to ride off the road after them.

And the real bastard. The sub-cortical layer of the brain is very fast. Much faster than the cortical layer. So if your close enough to the rider in front, you may possible ride off the road following them (thanks to those bloody fast mirror nuerons), and only afterwards realise what has happened as the slower sub-cortical thinking layer catches up with processing the data.
Hence you need a reasonable following distance, so your cortical brain layer has enough time to digest the problem and stop you from following the person in front off the road.

[rustic101]

PM me with your email address if you would like a copy.

Hi Folks,

Have received an email tonight with the final written report (not able to upload the document its .1 too big for here), the email intro was:

ABSTRACT
Introduction
The use of and attitudes towards high visibility gear (HVG) among motorcyclists is a pressing issue. There are a disproportionate number of motorcycle deaths and crashes (last year in New Zealand there were 50 and 1300 respectively) compared with other vehicles. There is some evidence that high visibility gear decreases the risk of motorcycle injury, but the current attitudes towards high visibility gear in the motorcycling community is mixed. There is currently no legislation regarding HVG and motorcycles in New Zealand.


Methods
A literature review was carried out looking at previous quantitative and qualitative data around this subject. Quantitative data collection included roadside observation of motorcycle apparel, and on-the-street and online surveys. To gather qualitative data, we carried out an analysis of an online motorcycle forum, and had face-to-face interviews with key informants.


Results
We found that the use of HVG among motorcyclists was not widespread. From observation data, it was seen that 38% of motorbike riders and 33% of scooter riders wore no form of HVG on their helmet or jacket. The survey found that 50% of motorbike riders and 42% of scooter riders never wear any HVG. Some of the attitudes towards HVG from motorcyclists were positive, however the common barriers to wearing HVG identified were image, cost, practicality and availability. There was also a prevailing attitude that HVG does not improve safety and it is the other road users who are at fault.


Conclusions
There is some evidence that shows that HVG can improve motorcyclists’ safety, but the use of HVG is currently low. The most important barriers to wearing HVG that motorcyclists identified were cost, image and practicality. These need to be considered when designing new gear. For a change to occur, an attitudinal shift is required before any legislation is introduced. Further research is needed to determine how effective HVG is, and to look at any alternate options for improving motorcycle safety.

[Ender EnZed]

:corn: .

[Berries]

Have received an email tonight with the final written report (not able to upload the document its .1 too big for here)
I am more interested in what number .2 was.

[rustic101]

I am more interested in what number .2 was.

The kilobite thingys (file size) were too big to post

[crystalball]

My headlight is on all the time, This should be enough for a cage driver to see me ( night and day) We need T.V adds to teach blind cage drivers to remember motorcycles are on the road to and to respect us on the road. We see many adds on drunk driving and speed kills why not add a motorcycle add to. Also I see so many cars with only one headlight on at night and so many cars driving badly. They need to learn more not us. We dont have a bad atitude we just get fedup that we are the ones whom need to learn. The cage drivers are the ones whom need too.

[flyingcrocodile46]

The kilobite thingys (file size) were too big to post

Google Drop box, register and upload it then post the link.

[swbarnett]

My headlight is on all the time, This should be enough for a cage driver to see me ( night and day)
Headlight or no (daytime) shouldn't make any difference. Otherwise, I agree.


We need T.V adds to teach blind cage drivers to remember motorcycles are on the road to and to respect us on the road. We see many adds on drunk driving and speed kills
And what difference have they made? As far as I can tell people are still getting killed by drunk drivers.


We dont have a bad atitude we just get fedup that we are the ones whom need to learn. The cage drivers are the ones whom need too.
To quote the late MJ: "If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change".

I get sick of people harping on about how "it's not our fault".

Fact 1: These motorised missiles are controlled (and I use the term loosely) by humans.
Fact 2: Humans are fallible. HiVis can't change this. Headlight on can't change this. Enforced education can't change this.

Hence fact 3: Every driver/rider is responsible for themselves.
and fact 4: The only thing we have control over is our own attitude.

Don't expect anyone else to look out for you. It just ain't gonna happen.

[CookMySock]

I think the best way to wake motorists up is to make it horrifically clear just how narrow and pointy the front of a motorcycle is, and just how far it will come through their drivers' door in a collision.

If they think a freight train is fair game to take to take on at level crossings, then we are doomed!

[Swoop]

... barriers to wearing HVG identified were image, cost, practicality and availability.
If this is their finding, then they have missed the point completely.
But not unsurprising.

[Old Steve]

I'll take whatever I can get that I think will increase my chances of survival:

I'm lucky my M50 is coloured Candy Orange Max, very visible

I wear a yellow HiViz jacket

I wear a white helmet

I ride with my headlights on high beam during daylight (and in 28 months of riding, I've had only one car ever flash their lights at me). I reckion that if my headlights annoy car drivers then they have at least seen me.

I'd wear Barby pink from head to toe if I thought it'd increase my chances of survival

I agree with Katman, we are responsible for our own safety. In fact that is why I wear a HIViz. It is not infallable, and does not replace the need for eternal vigilance, it's just an add on which I hope increases my visibility. I had a lady driver pull out of a daycare centre right across my path, but I was aware of my surroundings, I saw the front of her car come out and I went through my options, I braked and pulled up about a metre from her driver's door. She never saw me because she wasn't even looking in my direction. But I'll still wear a HiViz in case some car driver is looking my way and it highlights me as a potential hazard.

[Asher]

If this is their finding, then they have missed the point completely.
But not unsurprising.

Yup their findings are completely backwards, but i guess thats what happens when you skew the questions.

[Ocean1]

If this is their finding, then they have missed the point completely.
But not unsurprising.

Yup. Barrier is a flat refusal to have my riding apparell dictated by someone who isn't affected by that choice.

It's not one they'll overcome.

[GrayWolf]

All I know is when in area's like coastal hill riding and ya look over in the distance the hi vis stands out like dogs bollocks where if the rider was in black good chance they would just blend into the background.

Same on a straight road - its the Hi Vis I'm seeing first not the bike , bike just a skinny narrow dot coming towards me compared to the large surface area of the hi vis vest .....

So there we have it folks, a bike looks 'skinny' from a distance.... Yes coming to a dealer near you, the new compulsory bright orange GoldWing, the only bike now legally allowed on the road, as it doesnt look 'skinny' from a distance. :devil2::rolleyes:

[GrayWolf]

PM me with your email address if you would like a copy.

Hi Folks,

Have received an email tonight with the final written report (not able to upload the document its .1 too big for here), the email intro was:

ABSTRACT
Introduction
The use of and attitudes towards high visibility gear (HVG) among motorcyclists is a pressing issue. There are a disproportionate number of motorcycle deaths and crashes (last year in New Zealand there were 50 and 1300 respectively) compared with other vehicles. There is some evidence that high visibility gear decreases the risk of motorcycle injury, but the current attitudes towards high visibility gear in the motorcycling community is mixed. There is currently no legislation regarding HVG and motorcycles in New Zealand.


Methods
A literature review was carried out looking at previous quantitative and qualitative data around this subject. Quantitative data collection included roadside observation of motorcycle apparel, and on-the-street and online surveys. To gather qualitative data, we carried out an analysis of an online motorcycle forum, and had face-to-face interviews with key informants.


Results
We found that the use of HVG among motorcyclists was not widespread. From observation data, it was seen that 38% of motorbike riders and 33% of scooter riders wore no form of HVG on their helmet or jacket. The survey found that 50% of motorbike riders and 42% of scooter riders never wear any HVG. Some of the attitudes towards HVG from motorcyclists were positive, however the common barriers to wearing HVG identified were image, cost, practicality and availability. There was also a prevailing attitude that HVG does not improve safety and it is the other road users who are at fault.


Conclusions
There is some evidence that shows that HVG can improve motorcyclists’ safety, but the use of HVG is currently low. The most important barriers to wearing HVG that motorcyclists identified were cost, image and practicality. These need to be considered when designing new gear. For a change to occur, an attitudinal shift is required before any legislation is introduced. Further research is needed to determine how effective HVG is, and to look at any alternate options for improving motorcycle safety.


LMFAO, I hate being right, in instances like this. Yup this 'research' is already 'skewed' as they were out to PROVE the effectiveness of Hi vis, rather than ASK if it is effective. There's no research into how visible it is with a headlight on from a distance.... This is going to end up in MotoNZ/ACC/TPTB's hands... get ready for a "French style' piece of legislation....

Just one other interesting point, just WHO were these' KEY Informants'?? NOw THAT could be an interesting list to review....

[Scuba_Steve]

I'd wear Barby pink from head to toe if I thought it'd increase my chances of survival


Time to put you money where your mouth is & invest in pink then, cause guess what? people ARE more likely to notice you in "barby pink" I suggest you get a tutu too with that complete outfit I'd be surprised if anyone didn't see you

Oh & FYI riding round with lights on high beam increases the chance of car drivers thinking about swerving for you or slamming on the brakes. FACT!