Moto 3 in NZ

[steveyb]

So, this is a forum, a place where ideas are mooted, discussed, debated, shat on, elevated etc.
So, Moto3.
Sooner or later we will move, slowly or quickly it doesn't matter, towards the Moto3 concept in our junior/entry/novice class (i.e. 125GP).
After having watched Moto3 at MotoGP and now the CEV (Spanish champs Moto3) races and also knowing that some Moto3 bikes are racing in Australia, a few things have come to mind that I think would benefit from some discussion.

1) Class name change: So, while this does not actually do much, it does encomapss the concepts and allows people to get their heads around things if the name is inclusive.

2) Disparity: The Moto3 machines that are available on the market, i.e. Honda NSF250 are significantly faster than our national level 125GP bikes. They are about the same speeds and laptimes as the Aprilia GP 125's which make 10-15 more HP than our natioanl level bikes. GPMono machines such as the MD250H are not that fast, and homemade versions will probably similar, so these bikes are competitive with our good 125's.

3) Noise: If we think we have problems with noise now, just wait until people start wanting to race these things. I don't know how they will go when you have to start whacking big mufflers on them, but they are pretty loud now.

4) Costs: The NSF250 is approx $32,000 landed, with no spares at all. I have seen what they come with, it is a seat rubber, a couple of NSF250 and Honda wing stickers and a couple of sprockets, that's all. No idea yet about running costs, but remember that in MotoGP the Moto3 teams are allowed to use 8 engines during the season. That's a lot of engines at god knows what cost each. There will be an HRC race kit, but that will probably be $32,000 also!

I have a source of 1 year old MD250H's from Europe for about €9500 + costs with fresh engines. Not sure of spares. (ANYONE INTERESTED CONTACT ME).

Suggestions: Change the name of the 125GP class to Moto3 as is used in the USA and elsewhere at national level, such as in Spain. But we may not be able to as Dorna or FIM have trademarked the name, but should be able to agree on use. If it is FIM then MNZ should be able to use it. So maybe NZMoto3, or MotoThree or something like that if we cannot use Moto3. The NZ 125GP class has been reformulated to allow 250cc 4-Stroke "GPMono" style bikes, so that is OK, we have that in place already.

I also would suggest that we restrict, i.e. ban, the use of proper Moto3 style machines in order to retain some level of competitiveness in the class. This mix would be the sort of like having a slow MotoGP bike racing in our Superbike class, they are that much faster, and more expensive. In Australia on the weekend, 6/12 Superlites were 4 strokes, 1 of those was a Moriwaki, the NSFs were 1-2 sec faster over a 76sec lap (same as Manfeild). Not as fast as an Aprilia RSW125, but we don't have any of them.

It just seems a bit of a stretch to think that we would get 6 NSF250's here when we can't even get new RS125's on the grid, so perhaps best to restrict their use from the start.

Anyway, comments?

[SWERVE]

Hah Steve...........knew you would get bitten by the Moto 3 bug:2thumbsup

[RobGassit]

Makes perfect sense to at least restrict engines to less than exotica built from unobtainium. I think this could be a really exciting addition to NZ but anything to keep the costs relative to current GP125 would be great. Restrictions to dirt bike based engines or similar perhaps. Lot's of opportunities for Kiwi's to build prototypes as well, which would make it all the more interesting and great fun for the tuners. Perhaps all those clever buggers building exotic buckets could be lured away from F4? I personally would opt for the Moriwaki, maybe even let Sarah ride it!

[richban]

I reckon the cost of keeping a 45-50hp 250 4 stroke on the track might just push people in the other direction. When they go bang, and they will. It will cost a shed load. Maybe now there might be some RSA Aprilla's that won't break the bank.

Yah can't ban a proper Moto3 machine and still have an RSA as legal. Just go race a Ninja if you want to have a more restricted class.

I like small capacity racing always have.

It is a globally relevant class and should be developed but maybe the 4 strokes will make it more expensive. Not sure.

[richban]

Perhaps all those clever buggers building exotic buckets could be lured away from F4? I personally would opt for the Moriwaki, maybe even let Sarah ride it!

Word on the street is they are already building them. But will they match the already proven 2 strokes.

[crazy man]

just put a hp limit like 35-40hp witch l know would be hard to achieve anyway but in keeping with the 2 strokes. l do like the idea

[Yow Ling]

I guess it is going to happen one day whether I like it or not

Here is the spare parts price list for the Honda

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Honda_Moto3_Engine_Part_list_MR03GP_version_1.pdf

Was posted in the bucket section by Frits Overmars

Piston is NZ$2660.00 I guess I just stick to F4,

Parents start saving up !

[steveyb]

I guess it is going to happen one day whether I like it or not

Here is the spare parts price list for the Honda

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Honda_Moto3_Engine_Part_list_MR03GP_version_1.pdf

Was posted in the bucket section by Frits Overmars

Piston is NZ$2660.00 I guess I just stick to F4,

Parents start saving up !


I find it very interesting that HRC sold the RS125 with a complete spares kit with crank, pistons all sorts of stuff, and it was ready to race at national level, basically. Not at the front of national level, but in there somewhere.
But the NSF comes with nothing and would not be competitive straight away in MotoGP level which is where it is aimed.
Very interesting.
I wonder what the real rationale is behind that.

[steveyb]

just put a hp limit like 35-40hp witch l know would be hard to achieve anyway but in keeping with the 2 strokes. l do like the idea

HP limits are impossible to police.

It is just too expensive and difficult to have dynos running around the place and I for one would be a bit pissed if my bike went pop on a dyno at the track! No one has the time to do it.

Besides, it is possible to buy Bluetooth capable ECUs which can be 'switched' to a lower HP ign curve if one wants to.

[richban]

I find it very interesting that HRC sold the RS125 with a complete spares kit with crank, pistons all sorts of stuff, and it was ready to race at national level, basically. Not at the front of national level, but in there somewhere.
But the NSF comes with nothing and would not be competitive straight away in MotoGP level which is where it is aimed.
Very interesting.
I wonder what the real rationale is behind that.

Well back in the day you used to get a leather case with you ipod.

rational would be (need more money don't give nothing away).

[steveyb]

I reckon the cost of keeping a 45-50hp 250 4 stroke on the track might just push people in the other direction. When they go bang, and they will. It will cost a shed load. Maybe now there might be some RSA Aprilla's that won't break the bank.

Yah can't ban a proper Moto3 machine and still have an RSA as legal. Just go race a Ninja if you want to have a more restricted class.

I like small capacity racing always have.

It is a globally relevant class and should be developed but maybe the 4 strokes will make it more expensive. Not sure.

I agree with the cost thing, but no one is gonna know until they know eh?
If the RSW's and RSA's were going to come onto the market I think they would have already, but the haven't. They will still be very expensive because so few were actually made compared to the Hondas and Yamahas, and the parts will be impossible to get.

No one in NZ has come to the party with an Aprilia yet, bar Cookies bike which he didn't use much, which I think is still available, so I am guessing no one is going to. From what I know about the Aprilias they are very difficult to get to run consistently without heaps of experience. Even Steve Briggs had trouble getting Kevin Grants 93 RS250 running properly. Maybe there was something wrong with it, but he could never get it to run well for very long.

[steveyb]

Well back in the day you used to get a leather case with you ipod.

rational would be (need more money don't give nothing away).

What iPod? I don't have no iPod.......:rolleyes:

Of course that is the business case, but does it make good sense in the long run re customer relations?

[steveyb]

Hah Steve...........knew you would get bitten by the Moto 3 bug:2thumbsup

Hah!!

Actually, most of you will know that I am working with others to try to broaden our offering in NZ to attract riders from around the world to race in our championships.

For us to remain relevant in the world market we are simply going to have to offer 4-stroke 250s, like it or not.

I am not too keen on facing a blown up 4-stroke engine, that's for sure.

[richban]

I agree with the cost thing, but no one is gonna know until they know eh?
If the RSW's and RSA's were going to come onto the market I think they would have already, but the haven't. They will still be very expensive because so few were actually made compared to the Hondas and Yamahas, and the parts will be impossible to get.

No one in NZ has come to the party with an Aprilia yet, bar Cookies bike which he didn't use much, which I think is still available, so I am guessing no one is going to. From what I know about the Aprilias they are very difficult to get to run consistently without heaps of experience. Even Steve Briggs had trouble getting Kevin Grants 93 RS250 running properly. Maybe there was something wrong with it, but he could never get it to run well for very long.

How much HP does a really sorted Honda or Yamaha 2 stroke make now?

[crazy man]

How much HP does a really sorted Honda or Yamaha 2 stroke make now?l would say 40hp

[crazy man]

HP limits are impossible to police.

It is just too expensive and difficult to have dynos running around the place and I for one would be a bit pissed if my bike went pop on a dyno at the track! No one has the time to do it.

Besides, it is possible to buy Bluetooth capable ECUs which can be 'switched' to a lower HP ign curve if one wants to.if it went pop on the dyno it would of on the track anyway + geting 40 hp out of one would be near imposable here in nz anyway

[lostinflyz]

if you want to police anything, weight is very simple to control and police..... add 15kg to a moto3 and it may blow past you down the straight but itll level out at in the turns.....

[quallman1234]

Average one is 38-40... Some make up to 45 in NZ. Theres actually quite a noticable difference in a straight line. Thats a 125GP bike.

[richban]

if it went pop on the dyno it would of on the track anyway + geting 40 hp out of one would be near imposable here in nz anyway

You should be able to get 42 out of a MX250 for sure. Would need a good gearbox. Gearbox might be an issue.

[crazy man]

You should be able to get 42 out of a MX250 for sure. Would need a good gearbox. Gearbox might be an issue.mx 250 engines stock are 23-24. the 450s are 48-50 stock just for a base line

[Cleve]

Good for you Steve. Thinking about the future and young racers in NZ (as always). Whatever happens hope the plan goes well, but think it is the right move. Whereever possible NZ should try to stay relevant to what is happening around the world. By the way I will be based in Japan for the next 6 months. Let me know if there is anything I can do while there.

[richban]

mx 250 engines stock are 23-24. the 450s are 48-50 stock just for a base line

Yeah nah but much more can be had buy tuning them for road racing. If you apply the same or similar numbers as we got out of my commuter based air-cooled bucket engine 40 to 45 is possible for sure. Just got to find the best designed base engine that can be modified the cheapest.

Or just spend heaps of cash on the real deal.

[crazy man]

Yeah nah but much more can be had buy tuning them for road racing. If you apply the same or similar numbers as we got out of my commuter based air-cooled bucket engine 40 to 45 is possible for sure. Just got to find the best designed base engine that can be modified the cheapest.

Or just spend heaps of cash on the real deal.you better get on with it! can't wait to have a play my self

[richban]

you better get on with it! can't wait to have a play my self

Hell no.

I might build one on paper but thats as far as it will go till the lotto comes in. Personally I would rather build a 450 coz then I could race it against old dudes like me. I'll leave the Moto3 to the young skinny kids as it should be.

[Maarty]

I guess it is going to happen one day whether I like it or not

Here is the spare parts price list for the Honda

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Honda_Moto3_Engine_Part_list_MR03GP_version_1.pdf

Was posted in the bucket section by Frits Overmars

Piston is NZ$2660.00 I guess I just stick to F4,

Parents start saving up !

Why bother creating a shit storm Steve, if pistons are $2660.00 then it will be a self policeing class, not even the better funded teams are going to be able to afford that sort of outlay.
I looked into it, the europeans are spending 2500 Euro (average) every 2000 Km ( which is as many Km's as we did this nationals with Troy)
I wouldn't have spent that sort of money in the last 3 seasons on parts and you wouldn't have spent that much EVER! So why bother upsetting the billy-cart?
But!
If it does happen, so what? why should we or would we want to remain a technology back water?
What do we want to produce, riders with asperations of a 5th placing? or riders that are motivated to try as hard as they can to win, against all comers! And besides, even if they do appear on our grids, they still have to have pilots that control them!!!!!!!!!

[Bert]

So, this is a forum, a place where ideas are mooted, discussed, debated, shat on, elevated etc.
So, Moto3.
Sooner or later we will move, slowly or quickly it doesn't matter, towards the Moto3 concept in our junior/entry/novice class (i.e. 125GP).
After having watched Moto3 at MotoGP and now the CEV (Spanish champs Moto3) races and also knowing that some Moto3 bikes are racing in Australia, a few things have come to mind that I think would benefit from some discussion.

1) Class name change: So, while this does not actually do much, it does encompass the concepts and allows people to get their heads around things if the name is inclusive.


Totally agree; and if you are going to market this with the realistic age group you are targeting it is going to have to be catchy.. Sorry I fail to speak txt or GenY&W...



2) Disparity: The Moto3 machines that are available on the market, i.e. Honda NSF250 are significantly faster than our national level 125GP bikes. They are about the same speeds and laptimes as the Aprilia GP 125's which make 10-15 more HP than our national level bikes. GPMono machines such as the MD250H are not that fast, and homemade versions will probably similar, so these bikes are competitive with our good 125's.

I guess the reality is that "that's racing"; but I'd guess it will be 3-4 years before we start seeing Moto3 bikes (or NSF250's) on NZ tracks. Like all things the class would need to be established before people would commit large amounts of $$ to win it by importing in Motos3.



3) Noise: If we think we have problems with noise now, just wait until people start wanting to race these things. I don't know how they will go when you have to start whacking big mufflers on them, but they are pretty loud now.

This is a huge issue that the whole sport is faced with, maybe it is a great case for TechNZ funding or some research projects (for acoustic damping or waveform propagation; without loss of HP in small engines. Given the news/closeup Monday; surely there must be a physics/engineering student looking for something to do??); where results can be applied across the entire sport.



4) Costs: The NSF250 is approx $32,000 landed, with no spares at all. I have seen what they come with, it is a seat rubber, a couple of NSF250 and Honda wing stickers and a couple of sprockets, that's all. No idea yet about running costs, but remember that in MotoGP the Moto3 teams are allowed to use 8 engines during the season. That's a lot of engines at god knows what cost each. There will be an HRC race kit, but that will probably be $32,000 also!
I have a source of 1 year old MD250H's from Europe for about €9500 + costs with fresh engines. Not sure of spares. (ANYONE INTERESTED CONTACT ME).

That is scary money for NZ motorcycling (given the price of 600s etc). Talking big picture dreams here: but that kind of outlay will stop any future options of young NZ riders making down the MotoGP pathway (I know that we haven't achieved this in a long time; I'm not bagging your great work with MotoAcademy and Red Bull Rookies). Maybe the ideal pathway might have to change to SBK instead??




Suggestions: Change the name of the 125GP class to Moto3 as is used in the USA and elsewhere at national level, such as in Spain. But we may not be able to as Dorna or FIM have trademarked the name, but should be able to agree on use. If it is FIM then MNZ should be able to use it. So maybe NZMoto3, or MotoThree or something like that if we cannot use Moto3. The NZ 125GP class has been reformulated to allow 250cc 4-Stroke "GPMono" style bikes, so that is OK, we have that in place already.


NZMono3 or NZMoto3 NZ3moto even if it is trademarked then surely it is only the "Moto3" in it's entirety.



I also would suggest that we restrict, i.e. ban, the use of proper Moto3 style machines in order to retain some level of competitiveness in the class. This mix would be the sort of like having a slow MotoGP bike racing in our Superbike class, they are that much faster, and more expensive. In Australia on the weekend, 6/12 Superlites were 4 strokes, 1 of those was a Moriwaki, the NSFs were 1-2 sec faster over a 76sec lap (same as Manfeild). Not as fast as an Aprilia RSW125, but we don't have any of them.
It just seems a bit of a stretch to think that we would get 6 NSF250's here when we can't even get new RS125's on the grid, so perhaps best to restrict their use from the start.
Anyway, comments?


Don't Ban them; It's really unlikely to happen away.
We may even see an influx of RSA/RSW over the forth coming years that will need to competition; and in that case it might be two classes in one???? Moto3/GP125 and NZMoto3 (whatever)?? its still a progression, which isn't a bad thing.

[richban]

Its just buckets with less rules. (Awesome). Problem is building a competitive one will cost quite a bit. 14kish maybe.

[Brian d marge]

Good for you Steve. Thinking about the future and young racers in NZ (as always). Whatever happens hope the plan goes well, but think it is the right move. Whereever possible NZ should try to stay relevant to what is happening around the world. By the way I will be based in Japan for the next 6 months. Let me know if there is anything I can do while there.
Where are you in Japan ?

Im in Tokyo...

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Just add a class to the buckets allowing race or prototye parts to be used and let New Zealander do what they are goood at ( and famous for ) ,,making something out of nothing ,,some nice work already going on in them buckets at the mo

Needs a bit of a publicity make over though !

Stephen

[jasonu]

Perhaps all those clever buggers building exotic buckets could be lured away from F4? I personally would opt for the Moriwaki, maybe even let Sarah ride it!

They need to prove their worth in F4 first...

[jasonu]

No one in NZ has come to the party with an Aprilia yet, bar Cookies bike which he didn't use much, which I think is still available, so I am guessing no one is going to. .

How about this one
http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10727

[steveyb]

Why bother creating a shit storm Steve, if pistons are $2660.00 then it will be a self policeing class, not even the better funded teams are going to be able to afford that sort of outlay.
I looked into it, the europeans are spending 2500 Euro (average) every 2000 Km ( which is as many Km's as we did this nationals with Troy)
I wouldn't have spent that sort of money in the last 3 seasons on parts and you wouldn't have spent that much EVER! So why bother upsetting the billy-cart?
But!
If it does happen, so what? why should we or would we want to remain a technology back water?
What do we want to produce, riders with asperations of a 5th placing? or riders that are motivated to try as hard as they can to win, against all comers! And besides, even if they do appear on our grids, they still have to have pilots that control them!!!!!!!!!

Totally see your point, and know what you mean.
But I think that there were enough downhearted people around when Al was running his kitted RS (albeit that he rode it well fast, not arguing that part) that indicated that they were being turned off by the large(ish) amounts of money some were willing to spend.

That of course is life, you like it or you leave it. But I do think that we can in some way just put some form of lid on expenditures.
Creating a glass ceiling is not a good thing, but creating a chasm between the haves and havenots (in terms of $ not talent) is also not a good thing.

Hell, even you would be competitive on an NSF in NZ!!!

I reckon I have spent that sort of money over the past season and a bit, easy. But not on top of a $32k bike and not on one that will cost God knows how much if a valve lets go or something. I shudder at the thought.

Maybe it is on that thought that we should just hang on to our 2-strokes for as long as possible!!!

Good comments, that's why I started this thought.

[Ivan]

just for anyones intrest my 450 mx bike makes 56hp thats a brand new fuel injected 450 a 250mx engine would be around 28 or so pushing it to 35hp plus and over revving it would kill the engine fast a moto3 bike is expensive now but the price will drop as will parts when more builders start making bits etc

[richban]

just for anyones intrest my 450 mx bike makes 56hp thats a brand new fuel injected 450 a 250mx engine would be around 28 or so pushing it to 35hp plus and over revving it would kill the engine fast a moto3 bike is expensive now but the price will drop as will parts when more builders start making bits etc

I think a well thought through MX 250 engine conversion would make good power and last just fine. Assuming you rebuild the engine for what it will be doing.

[budda]

I think a well thought through MX 250 engine conversion would make good power and last just fine. Assuming you rebuild the engine for what it will be doing.

Correct - and when you've had a perve on the bikeporn of the Bakker frame for the RMZ motor, its not hard to start justiying things to yourself ...... just got to justify it to the MISSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[budda]

Correct - and when you've had a perve on the bikeporn of the Bakker frame for the RMZ motor, its not hard to start justiying things to yourself ...... just got to justify it to the MISSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And for those that are too stressed about building a 250 racer, theres always my personal favourite, the Moto450 concept .........
stone cold STANDARD MX450, with rearsets, shortened boingers, and bodywork. Swap from one to the other in an afternoon, just like we used to with 125's 35odd years ago ........... already F3 legal, whats stopping you ?

[steveyb]

Correct - and when you've had a perve on the bikeporn of the Bakker frame for the RMZ motor, its not hard to start justiying things to yourself ...... just got to justify it to the MISSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh bugger the Missus,...... oops not supposed to let on about that.....

But cereal.....

The Bakker bike is precisely one of the issues in what I am talking about. There are any number of "factories" that have made up a bike and announced it to the world: Sherco, Bianchi, Oral, Bakker, Ioda, GPTech, HarcPro and others. But none of them have made it to the Moto3 grids anywhere (Bianchi did race in Spain once I think).

Actually the Bakker looks suspiciously like an old Aprilia RSR125 with RMZ engine in it.

My point is that only two competitive Moto3 bikes (KTM, Honda) have yet made it to the startline with two or three others (Oral/Aprilia), KTM?/Czech frame, Mahindra and one or two others) not being competitive.

At the national/GPMono level I think that there really is a market opportunity here to develop a national level GPMono machine that will compete in the marketplace with Moriwaki. I know what the best MX engine is and I think I know what the best chassic combo will be, but it all needs testing and it all needs money to make it happen. I don't have the money. Anyone out there who does? Get in touch.

[scott411]

And for those that are too stressed about building a 250 racer, theres always my personal favourite, the Moto450 concept .........
stone cold STANDARD MX450, with rearsets, shortened boingers, and bodywork. Swap from one to the other in an afternoon, just like we used to with 125's 35odd years ago ........... already F3 legal, whats stopping you ?

as long as you keep the engines standard then you will be awesome with this idea, every manufacture does one, i can think if 8 different brands with a 450 single mxer,

however the top motard boys are now having issues with motors as they have started hoping them up and the revs they pull on the full circuits are causing issues, i think keeping the compression and heads standard might help this,

there was an american article i found a while ago which went on about dirt tracking and super singles and the maitnence they required on the mx based motors,

[scott411]

just for anyones intrest my 450 mx bike makes 56hp thats a brand new fuel injected 450 a 250mx engine would be around 28 or so pushing it to 35hp plus and over revving it would kill the engine fast a moto3 bike is expensive now but the price will drop as will parts when more builders start making bits etc

a std 250F moto bike is around 32 hp, a good race in NZ is prob 36 ish, they last approx 15 hours on a top end, and the rumour of the top bikes in the states are 43-45 hp (PC Kawasakis and Factory KTM's) made to last 2 mx races, and full rebuilds,

these will make the class cost at least twice (and more like 3 times) on the engine side as the 125 did, thats what it did in MX 8 years ago,

[CHOPPA]

My opinion would be to open it up to Moto 3 but no restrictions. If you want to run a 30k bike and all the associated costs then thats up to you

[tigertim20]

My opinion would be to open it up to Moto 3 but no restrictions. If you want to run a 30k bike and all the associated costs then thats up to you

I think thats a good idea too - I think few people are going to cough up that kind of outlay, and the class would be largely self-regulating.
If issue do crop up, then rule changes can be considered later on.
NZ isnt going to churn out world class riders if we dont explore the same classes the rest of the world are using.

[SWERVE]

I think thats a good idea too - I think few people are going to cough up that kind of outlay, and the class would be largely self-regulating.
If issue do crop up, then rule changes can be considered later on.
NZ isnt going to churn out world class riders if we dont explore the same classes the rest of the world are using.

I agree with all comments on one level or another...!
Yes it would be self regulating...... untill some one decided to write the chq!
But if they did and that was legal (within original/current rulings) then they should be allowed to run and the rules should NOT be altered to exclude them ........... its called progress.
Agree about having equal machinary in NZ to produce world class riders................ however one rider on a bike ***km faster than everybody else will not be beneficial as you only ride as fast as the competition.
How fast could GW have gone..............if pushed. Just an example of one person spending money / putting in time / when others dont..........OK admit you could add Mr Easton.

[Brian d marge]

Moto3 engine design
Moto2 chassis design set up
motogp prototype ...and guess where the skills have been learnt from

New Zealand hasnt the money but what is can do is use what it is good at ...

Why do we want a moto3 class what will it achieve>? currently I am unaware of any structured , for want to be engineers

what does one want to achieve with moto3 ? If the world is moving towards four strokes , then surely both eriders and crew need to be good at setting up ( underpowered aand/or peaky ) fourstrokes ( singles?)

What may need to happen is a rule change such as.; Moto3 unlimited engine tuning , but tight restrictions on chassis and ecu ....Moto2 cbr600 engines ( or yamaha,etc ) no modification, but unlimited chassis

ie using what we have to the best of our advantage.

Stephen

[CHOPPA]

You still have to be a good rider to make the bike go fast.

That is unless you have traction control

[tigertim20]

I agree with all comments on one level or another...!
Yes it would be self regulating...... untill some one decided to write the chq!
But if they did and that was legal (within original/current rulings) then they should be allowed to run and the rules should NOT be altered to exclude them ........... its called progress.
Agree about having equal machinary in NZ to produce world class riders................ however one rider on a bike ***km faster than everybody else will not be beneficial as you only ride as fast as the competition.
How fast could GW have gone..............if pushed. Just an example of one person spending money / putting in time / when others dont..........OK admit you could add Mr Easton.

my thinking was that if someone did write the cheque you could have a rule that requires them to start further back etc like the muscle car series does - big HP/faster lapping cars start at the rear xx seconds after the rest - not ideal, but it means nobody gets excluded, and everyone can ride whatever they want to ride, without the guys with deeper pockets automatically getting a massive advantage.
allows current riders/bike to compete, lets those with money buy the latest and greatest get into the mix, and gets NZ on the map using the latest tech.
I know many are not a fan of such rules, but to me it seems like a happy compromise - after all, passing is a big part of racing, if your bike just runs away down the straight every race, putting you a mile in the lead, you are missing out on practicing the art of passing in tough places arent you?
just my $0.02

[budda]

as long as you keep the engines standard then you will be awesome with this idea, every manufacture does one, i can think if 8 different brands with a 450 single mxer,

however the top motard boys are now having issues with motors as they have started hoping them up and the revs they pull on the full circuits are causing issues, i think keeping the compression and heads standard might help this,

there was an american article i found a while ago which went on about dirt tracking and super singles and the maitnence they required on the mx based motors,

Egg Zachary - and when I spoke to the man who STARTED the whole thing off over there 2years ago, he suggested an upper ceiling of 60HP for a stand alone class ( we'd run under SuperLite/F3 here ) with zero reliability issues.

These motors handle the jandal until they need a rebuild - just like every other race engine. And yes, there are at LEAST 8 Distributors with an eligible bike - even with only one of each brand, we'd almost double the exisiting fields !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scott411]

Egg Zachary - and when I spoke to the man who STARTED the whole thing off over there 2years ago, he suggested an upper ceiling of 60HP for a stand alone class ( we'd run under SuperLite/F3 here ) with zero reliability issues.

These motors handle the jandal until they need a rebuild - just like every other race engine. And yes, there are at LEAST 8 Distributors with an eligible bike - even with only one of each brand, we'd almost double the exisiting fields !!!!!!!!!!!!!

the bikes put out between 50 and 53 hp standard from what most people say, i think 60 might be a bit high, i think making them run stadnard compression which should be easy enough to check would be a good starting point, although as we know, peeople like to push rules so unless the right checks are in place early the envolpe will always be pushed

[CHOPPA]

the bikes put out between 50 and 53 hp standard from what most people say, i think 60 might be a bit high, i think making them run stadnard compression which should be easy enough to check would be a good starting point, although as we know, peeople like to push rules so unless the right checks are in place early the envolpe will always be pushed


When are we gonna see MX being regulated Scotty?

[scott411]

When are we gonna see MX being regulated Scotty?

when are MNZ going to enforce any techincal rules, when was the last time you saw a bike pulled down and checked?

as for restricting MX bikes power output, it does not make a huge difference as it does in road racing,

and if you want to build a class that lets one person spend a shitload of money and dominate, then the class will not create big competitors numbers, which is what the class Budda and I am talking about, I thought making full classes was the goal?

The new 250 proddy class is a good example of this, make a class that is even, and people will start to ride it, but make sure you enforce the rules as when the cheating gets out of hand people loose interest and take thier toys and go home.

[richban]

and if you want to build a class that lets one person spend a shitload of money and dominate, then the class will not create big competitors numbers, which is what the class Budda and I am talking about, I thought making full classes was the goal?

The new 250 proddy class is a good example of this, make a class that is even, and people will start to ride it, but make sure you enforce the rules as when the cheating gets out of hand people loose interest and take thier toys and go home.


I think the GP/Moto3 class is just fine how it is. At the moment as people have said someone could buy the best toy in the toy box and would be well up on power. Still got to ride it and all that.

Its about keeping up with international change. Will it cost money? Yes. But who gives a toss. You might be able to build one for 12k. Some people spend that on a push bike.

There is a great 250 production class now in NZ. So lets not try and hobble an internationally relevant class with restrictions.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the wood work.

[RobGassit]

Big money killed NZ sidecar racing.

[jasonu]

I think a well thought through MX 250 engine conversion would make good power and last just fine. Assuming you rebuild the engine for what it will be doing.

But why bother when an RS125 will make 35+HP and when properly maintained they are reliable and parts are relatively cheap and easy to get.

[scott411]

But why bother when an RS125 will make 35+HP and when properly maintained they are reliable and parts are relatively cheap and easy to get.

yes it is a real shame that road racing did not learn from the mistake motocross made,

[CHOPPA]

Let production 250cc road bikes in the Moto3 class like the Aprillia RS250s. There lap times should be comparable to the GP125s and the NSF? But they are pretty cheap, less than a GP125. I know they are not made anymore but neither are GP125s. There are heaps around too

[crazy man]

l think re start the old f3 class 400 4s , with the 125s gps and with this new 250 4 stroke gp bikes

[worm13]

l think re start the old f3 class 400 4s , with the 125s gps and with this new 250 4 stroke gp bikes

Are you crazy man?? thats what posites and post 90 carbs is all about :)

[crazy man]

Are you crazy man?? thats what posites and post 90 carbs is all about :)and my 400 kwacker is not alowed in both the classes

[Kickaha]

Big money killed NZ sidecar racing.

Rubbish, people acting like arseholes killed it or at least were trying to, it's not quite dead yet but I'm not sure it can be resuscitated

[budda]

the bikes put out between 50 and 53 hp standard from what most people say, i think 60 might be a bit high, i think making them run stadnard compression which should be easy enough to check would be a good starting point, although as we know, peeople like to push rules so unless the right checks are in place early the envolpe will always be pushed

Yeah, nah, sorry Scott - wasnt clear .... he was talking aboot AMEERRRRCUHHN horsepower, and we all know how inflated those are .....

[budda]

Let production 250cc road bikes in the Moto3 class like the Aprillia RS250s. There lap times should be comparable to the GP125s and the NSF? But they are pretty cheap, less than a GP125. I know they are not made anymore but neither are GP125s. There are heaps around too

Theres ALREADY a Class that allows things like RS's, RGV's, TZR's to compete on a much more level playing field than we had previously. That sound you hear in the background is the sound of BUGGER-ALL happening ; after we opened up the rules in a deliberate attempt to entice some of the "heaps" of proddy-based 250's out there back onto the track, the bikes have yet to materialise - go figure !

[quallman1234]

Unless there's heaps of Moto3 bikes made, then the 125GP is unlikely to survive.
Easy fix, if it has to happen. At least let 125's fit into the F3 class (if they alright are not allowed), a really good aprilla or something could probabaly win it. Most of the lap records between 125's and F3 are within 1 second of each other.

PS Aprila RS250,RGV's,NSR etc are slower than 125's in a straight line by quite a bit. Let alone around corners.

[Brian d marge]

you do realise that u may not be able to buy 125 race bikes soon ?

and that racing is actually cost effective for SOME , so fragmenting a sport with no clear paths rider and mechanic etc is not so healthy

MX ,, clear path , cheap and winnable , and all in between , eg a 1991 cr 125 will allow me to trail ride , get mid field in clubman ( and a leg end like me , win the national with one hand tied behind my back )

well I might have made some of that up but ...

Rs125 race bike will allow you to do what?

clear paths , with clear expectations ( achievable) and incentives

mpto 3 engine , 2 chassis gp prototype ...

Stephen

[richban]

you do realise that u may not be able to buy 125 race bikes soon ?

and that racing is actually cost effective for SOME , so fragmenting a sport with no clear paths rider and mechanic etc is not so healthy

MX ,, clear path , cheap and winnable , and all in between , eg a 1991 cr 125 will allow me to trail ride , get mid field in clubman ( and a leg end like me , win the national with one hand tied behind my back )

well I might have made some of that up but ...

Rs125 race bike will allow you to do what?

clear paths , with clear expectations ( achievable) and incentives

mpto 3 engine , 2 chassis gp prototype ...

Stephen

The cool thing is its going to happen. There will be 4 stroke prototype bikes in the gp125 fields for sure. Prototype fames and all. Will they go good and make power? I reckon some will for sure. Is there an age limit on the class like in moto3?

[speights_bud]

PS Aprila RS250,RGV's,NSR etc are slower than 125's in a straight line by quite a bit. Let alone around corners.

I've out powered Mettam on my NSR and i'm 30kg's heavier than him. also finished ahead of him on the short circuit at taupo... maybe it wasn't the bike though :eek::cool:

[CHOPPA]

I go to MX and look at all the young guys in flash vans, latest gears, new bikes, fancy suspension, flash graphics then I go to road racing and see young guys struggling to afford to ride a 15 year old 125. What am I missing?

When the 250f's came out and were allowed to race with the 125s I didnt hear anyone having a sook saying they should be banned because they are too good or they cost to much they just said oh you know what these gay 4 strokes are the future.

[Yow Ling]

I go to MX and look at all the young guys in flash vans, latest gears, new bikes, fancy suspension, flash graphics then I go to road racing and see young guys struggling to afford to ride a 15 year old 125. What am I missing?



maybe Kids with rich parents race MX

Maybe not everyone wants to race MX

Maybe same reason some wealthy people race buckets instead of 1000's

Just choices or living within your means

[Ivan]

what about allowing 125gp modified 250fs and standered 450fs a standered 450f would be as well as moto3 bikes

[Yow Ling]

what about allowing 125gp modified 250fs and standered 450fs a standered 450f would be as well as moto3 bikes

I ran this through google translate but it couldnt work it out

[crazy man]

what about allowing 125gp modified 250fs and standered 450fs a standered 450f would be as well as moto3 bikesl know they should be around the same but l know l would go with the 450f stock any day

[worm13]

what about allowing 125gp modified 250fs and standered 450fs a standered 450f would be as well as moto3 bikes

huh whats the point?, you have instantly killed the idea of a modified 250 when you can go bigger and be reliable to replacement for displacement as the yanks like to say!
More than likely this would be the first steps for jnrs with a bike that has setup options and be a purpose built race bike other then 125gp, running 450mx engines are being used in F3 IMO leave them there the class needs something more than sv650s in it, its nice seeing moir and easton on something different.
I see where steve is coming here we need something to align our selves with other countries to help with that stepping stone if we are different to everyone alse how are we gonna get the chance to compete overseas, buy another bike just for that reason? shouldnt have to once again look at mx what they ride here they can ride anywhere in some case will be down in spec but how ever there is a class regardless!
But this is all IMO and means nothing :)

[Mental Trousers]

I go to MX and look at all the young guys in flash vans, latest gears, new bikes, fancy suspension, flash graphics then I go to road racing and see young guys struggling to afford to ride a 15 year old 125. What am I missing?

When the 250f's came out and were allowed to race with the 125s I didnt hear anyone having a sook saying they should be banned because they are too good or they cost to much they just said oh you know what these gay 4 strokes are the future.

Accessibility seems to be one of the problems from what I've seen.

The guys I used to work with would go for a couple of hours blast after work quite often. Lots of farmers have practice tracks tucked away in an unused paddock. When their mates come around for a bbq the boys will take the kids out in the paddock and blast around for a while and everyone has a great time.

Road Racing tracks aren't that common and when you do live near one there are strict rules on when it can be used, hirage fees, health and safety etc.

A tad off topic but meh.

[Ivan]

I ran this through google translate but it couldnt work it out

sorry write it in a rush haha,

if you had 125gp bikes moto3 bikes as well as allowing frames like crazymans etc to be used running either a 250f motor you want to work the shit out of cams ports everything anything you want slipper clutch the lot or run a 450f bog stock no mods bar external gearing nothing to be done to them in either a minimono chassis or 125gp chassis the only external mod you could do would be exhaust and a airbox system thats it nothing else it would allow for guys wanting to tinker with there 250s and build a rocket ship or someone who wants there kid out there on a standered 450 etc you will pick up a decent 450 cheap just a idea

[worm13]

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this aimed at kids to start with? whats age limit is it for a 450 in mx? also how would this tie in with current road racing rules?

[Ivan]

Accessibility seems to be one of the problems from what I've seen.

The guys I used to work with would go for a couple of hours blast after work quite often. Lots of farmers have practice tracks tucked away in an unused paddock. When their mates come around for a bbq the boys will take the kids out in the paddock and blast around for a while and everyone has a great time.

Road Racing tracks aren't that common and when you do live near one there are strict rules on when it can be used, hirage fees, health and safety etc.

A tad off topic but meh.

this is true and the reason i started dirt biking over road, for me to road race i have to drive 2 hours to manfield 100 bucks upwards for entry then 50 bucks fuel roughly 60 bucks fuel for vechile to get there and back leave at 6am and be restricted when i could ride


on the dirt i can drive 5 minutes to lake theres big paddocks a sand motox track etc then 30 minute drive to hairy hills motox track 15 bucks entry drive to carterton and go to my mates "compound" theres a flat track fmx track 2 mx tracks or if i wanna race 25 bucks entry for a club day leave home at 8ish to get there and pay for a tank of fuel about 12 bucks for day

[Ivan]

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this aimed at kids to start with? whats age limit is it for a 450 in mx? also how would this tie in with current road racing rules?

15 you can race 125gp 15 you can race 450 mx i am pretty sure

and it was just a idea it doesnt fit in but if we are looking at creating a youth class we need options

[Mental Trousers]

Now you bring it up age is another problem to getting young kids into Road Racing


15.2.3 Junior competitors age shall be from and including the eighth birthday until the seventeenth birthday. Young Junior Road race riders from their 10th birthday until their 13th birthday shall be allowed to compete in the Young Junior road race class.
Junior competitors age shall be from and including the eight birthday until the seventeenth birthday.
Junior riders that are eligible to race in Senior Road Race events may continue to race as a Junior in Motocross events up until the date of their 17th birthday.
Junior’s 13 years and over shall be allowed to compete in miniature road racing 150cc Streetstock, Classic (23.3) and Post Classic (25.6). In special cases approval may be granted by the Board on an individual basis for 125 GP class. The basis for this approval will be a recommendation from a current top level rider who shall commit to act as mentor to the junior rider until the rider is eligible for a senior licence. All riders are to wear a high visibility vest over their leathers for the first events at which they compete. Proof of these events will be from entries in their log book.

Kids under the age of 10 aren't actually able to compete in any Road Racing event. Whereas on the dirt there's very clear and comprehensive rules for competition for kids and a rule that allows kids of pretty much any age to compete in cross country events (MNZ 15.6.2 (http://mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Chapter_15_Junior&Mini_Sport.pdf) it's at the discretion of the Course Steward at Club Only events, the child must have a parent shadow them for the entire thing and the child must be able to pick up their own machine by themselves)

So there's a path for kids to follow from as soon as they can sling a leg over a 50cc all the way through to age 15 when there's no longer any restrictions on what they ride. Road Racing they can't even go near one until they're 10, at 13 they're able to ride GP machinery but only with special dispensation, then at 15 all the restrictions come off (I think).

Kids can be competing on dirt bikes at any age as long as they can convince the Course Steward they're capable.

[jellywrestler]

Big money killed NZ sidecar racing.

absolute bullshit

[crazy man]

what about allowing 125gp modified 250fs and standered 450fs a standered 450f would be as well as moto3 bikesmaybe a weight limet for the stock 450s say around 125kg mark would be fair

[RobGassit]

absolute bullshit

How about giving us your version then, because the class died a death like no other class ever has. Is it just coincidence that the class dissappeared shortly after the arrival of 100k chairs?

[Kickaha]

How about giving us your version then, because the class died a death like no other class ever has. Is it just coincidence that the class dissappeared shortly after the arrival of 100k chairs?

How many 100K chairs were actually racing?

It was more because after years of doing a four round National series the knob end leading the charge at MNZ told them they would have to do all five rounds or there would not be series for them, as 3 of the five rounds were in the south and the majoirty of sidecars came from the North they weren't prepared to spend the money or couldn't/wouldn't take the time off

No doubt about it a few people got their noses out of joint once they started getting hammered and couldn't win anymore but until it was changed without consultation with what was at the time a MNZ affiliated club there still would have easily been a class

But this thread isn't about that anyway

[Kickaha]

I go to MX and look at all the young guys in flash vans, latest gears, new bikes, fancy suspension, flash graphics then I go to road racing and see young guys struggling to afford to ride a 15 year old 125. What am I missing?

How much do you think it would cost to race competitively in each MX class compared to the on road equivalent?

[Ivan]

maybe a weight limet for the stock 450s say around 125kg mark would be fair

i was thinking for academy bikes like steves if he followed this route,

a 450 stock engine in a frame like yours running rs running gear would then come down to rider external setup not about the engine and chasing the most power it would kind of be a feeder class into a class that really is dead in nz as it is sadly my favourite class is 125gp but it would be a feeder class to help bring people in would allow for more engine brands as well such as honda yamaha suzuki kawasaki and the people who want to chase power can go the 250f route

[crazy man]

i was thinking for academy bikes like steves if he followed this route,

a 450 stock engine in a frame like yours running rs running gear would then come down to rider external setup not about the engine and chasing the most power it would kind of be a feeder class into a class that really is dead in nz as it is sadly my favourite class is 125gp but it would be a feeder class to help bring people in would allow for more engine brands as well such as honda yamaha suzuki kawasaki and the people who want to chase power can go the 250f routethe thing is it would not be realy fair to someone building a 250 and still been 10hp down and only half the torque off a 450 then it ends up been mostly 450s instead of the real class 125-250s

[budda]

the thing is it would not be realy fair to someone building a 250 and still been 10hp down and only half the torque off a 450 then it ends up been mostly 450s instead of the real class 125-250s

You have missed the point chaps - the 450singles was proposed as a low cost/high fun alternative that is easily accessible for anyone with the initiative, and the bikes would fit into the already existing SuperLite/F3 Class structure ....... hopefully there would be enough to eventually lead to its own title .

The 125GP Class will, like all Classes, eventually die off unless we allow change to take place - THAT is why the Road Race Commission had the foresight to alter the rules to allow those who choose to, to either purchase OR build a fourstroke equivalent for themselves.

NOTHING is truly future-proof, but the door is open for those that want to go down that route ..... as the Classic movement illustrates, there are always ways of maintaining and running an outdated racebike at competitive levels, really comes down to the wallet.

And, as for "fair" ........ well, those of you who know me know my thoughts on that hoary chestnut !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CHOPPA]

How much do you think it would cost to race competitively in each MX class compared to the on road equivalent?

It would cost me the same to get 3rd in the MX1 as it would to get 3rd in the Superbikes

[jellywrestler]

It would cost me the same to get 3rd in the MX1 as it would to get 3rd in the Superbikes

what's the tyre comparison?

[jasonu]

How much do you think it would cost to race competitively in each MX class compared to the on road equivalent?

A lot less

[scott411]

It would cost me the same to get 3rd in the MX1 as it would to get 3rd in the Superbikes

I seriously doubt that Choppa, it costs more to get 3rd in MX2 anyway,

i bet BT's Bike that won the MX1 title would not cost half of what any bike in the top 5 superbikes would cost to build

and i bet the whole of the top 10 in MX1 would not have spent what you did on tyres

[jellywrestler]

I seriously doubt that Choppa, it costs more to get 3rd in MX2 anyway,


those hats with the three green stripes that are carefully designed so you can tuck your ears into them can't be cheap I'm picking?

[Maarty]

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRY BABIES!
What are you wanting to do, regulate the haves and have nots? The guys who can find the funding from those who cannot?
Way too much self centered chest beating going on. If someone wants to run a moto3 (and has the resourses to do so) great! Let them go for it!
What next? shell we mediate the rules to hobble Stroudy because he and Karen do their homework and get the funding, or Choppa for the same? What about Glen (Williams) for having a sucessful business that allows him to participate at the level he does. How about Josh McGrath or Troy Guenther because their perants could afford it!
Perhaps we should put rules in place to stop riders like Travis Merkel and Avalon Biddle from getting rides overseas because they have the funding?
Pull your heads out of the sand and harden up! or try another sport!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brian d marge]

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRY BABIES!
What are you wanting to do, regulate the haves and have nots? The guys who can find the funding from those who cannot?
Way too much self centered chest beating going on. If someone wants to run a moto3 (and has the resourses to do so) great! Let them go for it!
What next? shell we mediate the rules to hobble Stroudy because he and Karen do their homework and get the funding, or Choppa for the same? What about Glen (Williams) for having a sucessful business that allows him to participate at the level he does. How about Josh McGrath or Troy Guenther because their perants could afford it!
Perhaps we should put rules in place to stop riders like Travis Merkel and Avalon Biddle from getting rides overseas because they have the funding?
Pull your heads out of the sand and harden up! or try another sport!!!!!!!!!!!!

and yo wonder why there aint no one going to watch the races ....

Stephen

[Ivan]

i dont think there was cry babying there was a suggestion for what to do with our best youth class that is dieing you cant tell me that the class is strong compared to when midge and jay were racing it. i say 125gp moto3 homebults etc

just ideas for making the class stronger but really i dont know why i care im gone from the sport anyway

[jellywrestler]

and yo wonder why there aint no one going to watch the races ....

Stephen

????????????????????????? FYI at ruapuna for the NZ grand prix this year there were more spectators than the V8's a few weeks earlier, this and 2500 people following it on the internet through live timing.

[Yow Ling]

i dont think there was cry babying there was a suggestion for what to do with our best youth class that is dieing you cant tell me that the class is strong compared to when midge and jay were racing it. i say 125gp moto3 homebults etc

just ideas for making the class stronger but really i dont know why i care im gone from the sport anyway

I think the best youth class is 250 twins, pretty good formula, the cream rises to the top pretty fast. You guys seem to be trying to create a Bucket style class from a GP class.

[jellywrestler]

I think the best youth class is 250 twins, pretty good formula, the cream rises to the top pretty fast. You guys seem to be trying to create a Bucket style class from a GP class.
I'd have to agree with you Mike, times change and what once was the ideal class moves on otherwise the MotoGP class would still be 500cc singles wouldn't they?

[Mental Trousers]

I think the best youth class is 250 twins, pretty good formula, the cream rises to the top pretty fast.

Yup, I agree with that. If anything what's needed is a class similar in concept to the 250 twins but for those that aren't old enough to ride the 250's yet plus rules for those that aren't eligible to race anything yet, ie under 10's. So that'd be 2 classes exclusively for kids.

That'd be a start on having a development path for very young kids upwards through the ranks. However, at the moment there isn't really any sort of structure in place within the existing classes to help develop riders, only individuals like steveyb and others doing what they can (and doing a good job too). Further more, there's no path for riders to progress overseas, no way for riders to get to AMA, BSB, WSBK, MotoGP etc unless they take a punt and move to Europe/USA/Aussie/whereever.

[worm13]

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRY BABIES!
What are you wanting to do, regulate the haves and have nots? The guys who can find the funding from those who cannot?
Way too much self centered chest beating going on. If someone wants to run a moto3 (and has the resourses to do so) great! Let them go for it!
What next? shell we mediate the rules to hobble Stroudy because he and Karen do their homework and get the funding, or Choppa for the same? What about Glen (Williams) for having a sucessful business that allows him to participate at the level he does. How about Josh McGrath or Troy Guenther because their perants could afford it!
Perhaps we should put rules in place to stop riders like Travis Merkel and Avalon Biddle from getting rides overseas because they have the funding?
Pull your heads out of the sand and harden up! or try another sport!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is Kiwi bitcher isnt it??

[budda]

Further more, there's no path for riders to progress overseas, no way for riders to get to AMA, BSB, WSBK, MotoGP etc unless they take a punt and move to Europe/USA/Aussie/whereever.

Arthur FS !!!!!!!!!!!

[RDjase]

http://www.rscycles.com/images/yamaha_moto3/Yamaha_Moto3_bike.html


http://www.rscycles.com/images/yamaha_moto3/yam_moto3new.jpg

GPtech Moto-3 bike Specifications

GP-M3R


Wheelbase 1270mm
Trail 88.9mm

Weight: under 200lbs

Power estimated at 38hp+ (std YZ250F)

Base price starting at $16,000


Complete Assembled Motorcycle Sold Standard with:




Engine Yamaha 249cc YZ250F or WR250X
Chassis Framecrafters Bi-metallic 4130 chromoly tubing w 6061 billet alum stretchers
Wheels Galespeed 17” five spoke, forged alum w modular billet alum cush drive
Forks Showa inverted telescopic, adjustable compression and rebound
Shock Ohlins TTX adjustable compression and rebound
Rearsets Battle Factory adjustable height and setback
Clip-on GPtech two piece split design
Handlebars Speedymoto adjustable 0-14 degree bar angle
Master cylinder Accossato radial pump 16x18 with remote reservoir
Caliper (front) Brembo radial 4 piston
Sprockets Thrust 520 hard anodized alum rear
Fluid fittings Motion Pro petcock and quick disconnects
Exhaust Graves short silencer (carbon or alum)
Bodywork Hotbodies multiple body kit options fit (including any
Honda RS125 body kit)
Electronics Active digital monitor with tach/ oil/water temp
Safety Motion Pro overflow bottle kits
Tires Dunlop slicks 95/70R 17 F, 115/70R 17 R

[crazy man]

that is not a bad price

[worm13]

whats no to like with that!! anyone with a tz125 chassis can slap a yz250f motor in it and away ya go :) would be the smart way to go IMO

[suzuki21]

absolute bullshit

I agree. Sidecar people killed sidecar racing.

[budda]

whats no to like with that!! anyone with a tz125 chassis can slap a yz250f motor in it and away ya go :) would be the smart way to go IMO

EXACTLY the sort of thing the rulechange was designed to encourage ..............

[budda]

I agree. Sidecar people killed sidecar racing.

Sad, but true ...........

[Shorty_925]

http://www.rscycles.com/images/yamaha_moto3/Yamaha_Moto3_bike.html


http://www.rscycles.com/images/yamaha_moto3/yam_moto3new.jpg

GPtech Moto-3 bike Specifications

GP-M3R


Wheelbase 1270mm
Trail 88.9mm

Weight: under 200lbs

Power estimated at 38hp+ (std YZ250F)

Base price starting at $16,000


Complete Assembled Motorcycle Sold Standard with:




Engine Yamaha 249cc YZ250F or WR250X
Chassis Framecrafters Bi-metallic 4130 chromoly tubing w 6061 billet alum stretchers
Wheels Galespeed 17” five spoke, forged alum w modular billet alum cush drive
Forks Showa inverted telescopic, adjustable compression and rebound
Shock Ohlins TTX adjustable compression and rebound
Rearsets Battle Factory adjustable height and setback
Clip-on GPtech two piece split design
Handlebars Speedymoto adjustable 0-14 degree bar angle
Master cylinder Accossato radial pump 16x18 with remote reservoir
Caliper (front) Brembo radial 4 piston
Sprockets Thrust 520 hard anodized alum rear
Fluid fittings Motion Pro petcock and quick disconnects
Exhaust Graves short silencer (carbon or alum)
Bodywork Hotbodies multiple body kit options fit (including any
Honda RS125 body kit)
Electronics Active digital monitor with tach/ oil/water temp
Safety Motion Pro overflow bottle kits
Tires Dunlop slicks 95/70R 17 F, 115/70R 17 R

Tyler's new bike? Or that going to be KXF powered?

[RDjase]

Are any of the MX 250 engines available new with wiring, throttle bodies etc?

Or do you have to buy a 2nd hand MX bike, strip it, rebuild the engine and try and sell the rolling frame

[scott411]

Are any of the MX 250 engines available new with wiring, throttle bodies etc?

Or do you have to buy a 2nd hand MX bike, strip it, rebuild the engine and try and sell the rolling frame

pretty hard to get new engines ready to go like that, you would beed to by a bike and sell the frame,

[Ivan]

that isnt a tz chassis that is framecrafters own chassis using a yz250f engine that is why i was saying a crazyman frame if you have seen his bikes they are very much a new zealand made version of the tigcraft which are based around the rs and use rs running gear i am not trying to create a bucket class just if you have rode a gp bike you would understand how awsome they are handling etc if we could have frames built to fit the yz250f etc and then use either tz or rs forks wheels swingarm we would be moving the class into a new era

i agree prolites is a good class but end of the day they are a commuter bike turned into a bike for the track 125gp and moto3 are porpouse built race bikes the frames teach you so much when you ride them they do want you want them to do and is really a good class to learn on,

if we could have people buying frames like what i have said then manufactors like yamaha honda suzuki etc might come on board and help sell you a cheap bike and it would make a brand class plus would also give the class a good new era as 125s are going to die out parts are getting more expensive we looked at rebuilding our 96 rs but it just was not worth it so its going to sit there and do what its doing now looking good

[worm13]

crazy man whos he?? never seen em!! but do you need to have a complete frame rebuild surely you can use a existing gp bike for it, but the time you get a frame built by all the good gp bits plus engine exhaust electrics hello pro twin you seem a better option to me! why a hand built chassis someone make a kit for the engine conversion for example ford with a straight 6 to a v8... dont see any of them building new frames to suit

[Ivan]

on here thats his user name hes built a awsome bike for his brother its similar to a rs125 using rs forks swingarm the lot but running a v4 honda 400 engine

you can convert a frame to make it fit but theres alot of butchering i was thinking if you brought a whole rs and wanted to go four stroke keep the rs frame and engine as they will get rare and might be worth something and have a custom frame built to not butcher the rs up and just use its forks etc a rs is a really tight little frame and the four stroke engines are abit bigger and fatter than the rs engine so if you custom built a frame you could build it around the engine you are using and just use rs/tz geomatry

[SWERVE]

Ok..here goes
I see 3 types of racers: Club/Street race/ occasional riders of all ages - who with club sub regs (depending on classes popular within club) are pretty well catered for.
Seasoned higher level/national level riders - who regardless of class/cost/age/etc will continue in the sport cos its what they do.
And most importantly..... The existing junior / younger generation riders / and even more importantely the yet to be introduced young riders - who are the future of our sport and for those who wish to see another kiwi on the world stage.... our future champions.

I believe that we do need to look at how we can introduce kids from the same age as junior MotoX into some kind of circuit racing. Minimoto is the obvious choice... dont know why this isnt working in NZ...it should be bursting at the seams..with under 10,s and those who are complaining of the cost of real racing!
I would like to see kids from 10 onwards able to race in classes like the development class at MCC. (The legal ramifications cant be that bad as MX do it) So by aged 13 we have veterans of circuit racing who now need a pathway.
Prolite: Perfect a chance to compete on similar machinary that isnt to compilcated.... where talant will shine through. It will allow the real race experience at national level and straight away the possibility of inter country riding (as many countries run these bikes as a series).

Step 2 -Now is the time to change/set the rules for 125gp / F3 for the future of both NZ & overseas competitors. As MNZ have done the inclusion of 250 machines into the existing class (125) will see people to race a variety of machinary both old / new / and a hybid of the two. Gradually the tide will turn and it will become a more moto 3 type class. And if someone wants to buy a MOTO 3 bike then bring it on.
F3..../ Protwin.. This definately needs some kind of parity (particuallyfor national competition) The current F3 rules are IMHO (trying to cater for every NZer) Protwin should have been an awesome class.... dont know why it isnt. - This years saw very evenly matched bikes with a variety of ages. Top 4 all had at least one win and if Deano hadnt crashed out it would probebly been top 5 taking a win. But sadly lost within the F3 field.

I think plans should be put in place to follow the lines of Budda,s 450 moto idea (and why not include the Ozzy type 450s too).... which as he says would currently fit in, but look at this as the future of F3 (or whatever you call it)
This would be a great step up class / type of bike for up & coming young bloods. A chance to take a step up in power with a bike that has sorted suspension / etc .
IMHO 600,s should be inline with other countries production rules
And superbike should be just that a SUPERBIKE that every young hopeful aspires to ride..... and that pushes the boundries of rider ability and entertains the crowd.
As i said earlier i think clubs bend over backwards to accomodate their members at club level. But would like to see a more defined path of classes/rules for higher level competition.
People such as Maarty / Steveyb / Red Fenton are already bringing in overseas riders and sending Nzers the other way. The likes of Avalon / Jake / John R / Danial M / Travis M are taking it upon themselves. Im sure there will be more..... lets try and make it lots more and much easier to compete on a bike similar to the one at home.
Dont think rules / classes need to follow other countries (too analy) much beyond the 125/250/moto3 class as any youngster who is gonna make it will have made the move by this point....... aged around 16 hopefully.:Punk:
While my main thoughts are with junior development and their part in the future of our sport.... all classes should be open to all ages (although i wouldnt mind an age limit in Prolite (poss 20) to make it a specific junior class)
There........... feel free to shoot me down in flames:nono:

[worm13]

I my self if i was running a 125gp bike and this came out as option I would prefer to use what ive got and run the for stroke motor, if a kit was made for the change of engine mounts spacings and a jig for cuting what needs to be cut it makes the conversion from 125gp to moto3 simple, yeah man go nuts with a hand built fame I have no issues there but keeping it simple to start with to get it off the ground and then let it evolve.
can someone explain why 250gp died in nz and it did it before moto2 had even started does the 125s have anything in common with what happened there?
Im not trying to be an arse here but start up cost would put alot of parents off from starting there kids out in road racing vs mx, Im like you Ivan I started racing from the oldies pockets to start with and was very lucky that the old man brought me a f3 bike but after that it was after school work to pay for everything for the bike, and then cost of racing as you would know is far cheaper then what we have to day. Im not saying this has to be cheap it has to accesable for new entry riders (kids/teenages) as to be honest over the past years there hasnt been a whole heap of 125 riders over the age of 30.
I would love to see a grid of 15 young'uns on bikes like this mx can get it why cant we?

[SWERVE]

Are any of the MX 250 engines available new with wiring, throttle bodies etc?

Or do you have to buy a 2nd hand MX bike, strip it, rebuild the engine and try and sell the rolling frame

Try importing a turnkey motor package from the states............. friend of mine imported an R1 motor with all ancillaries including dash (700miles) for a fraction of cost of even a secondhand bike.
Worth a thought................. what you planning Jase...!

[Mental Trousers]

Step 2 -Now is the time to change/set the rules for 125gp / F3 for the future of both NZ & overseas competitors. As MNZ have done the inclusion of 250 machines into the existing class (125) will see people to race a variety of machinary both old / new / and a hybid of the two. Gradually the tide will turn and it will become a more moto 3 type class. And if someone wants to buy a MOTO 3 bike then bring it on.
F3..../ Protwin.. This definately needs some kind of parity (particuallyfor national competition) The current F3 rules are IMHO (trying to cater for every NZer) Protwin should have been an awesome class.... dont know why it isnt. - This years saw very evenly matched bikes with a variety of ages. Top 4 all had at least one win and if Deano hadnt crashed out it would probebly been top 5 taking a win. But sadly lost within the F3 field.

I think plans should be put in place to follow the lines of Budda,s 450 moto idea (and why not include the Ozzy type 450s too).... which as he says would currently fit in, but look at this as the future of F3 (or whatever you call it)

I don't see any reason to change F3. For the foreseeable future there's going to be plenty of 650cc twins and there's more and more 600's being converted to 450cc. There's also people who turn up with machines out of left field (Aprilia engined TigCraft etc), which is great. Since the rules have changed there's at least one 400cc twin 2 stroke in an Aprilia RS frame that I know of too

Interesting that converting 450's to road race bikes has taken off big time overseas but I've only seen about 4 here.

[crazy man]

crazy man whos he?? never seen em!! but do you need to have a complete frame rebuild surely you can use a existing gp bike for it, but the time you get a frame built by all the good gp bits plus engine exhaust electrics hello pro twin you seem a better option to me! why a hand built chassis someone make a kit for the engine conversion for example ford with a straight 6 to a v8... dont see any of them building new frames to suitlooks like crazy man is on your friends list (-; . l dont like 125s been choped and changed. l think buckets is still a real good class regardless of what people say. maybe a multi built frame that can take all sorts of engines like start with a bucket then a 250f then a 450f for f3 . a good steping stone . after you have finshed with it you can put your rs125 back togetter or just find the parts to keep together .wheels, forks and on

[worm13]

looks like crazy man is on your friends list (-; . l dont like 125s been choped and changed. l think buckets is still a real good class regardless of what people say. maybe a multi built frame that can take all sorts of engines like start with a bucket then a 250f then a 450f for f3 . a good steping stone . after you have finshed with it you can put your rs125 back togetter or just find the parts to keep together .wheels, forks and on

I remember you as funny man! aka funny looking, funny smelling... the list goes on but not everyone knows your frames as crazy man frames or your the man behind behind Glenn W's SV frame :) by the way you gonna be at daves tomorrow?

[crazy man]

on here thats his user name hes built a awsome bike for his brother its similar to a rs125 using rs forks swingarm the lot but running a v4 honda 400 engine

you can convert a frame to make it fit but theres alot of butchering i was thinking if you brought a whole rs and wanted to go four stroke keep the rs frame and engine as they will get rare and might be worth something and have a custom frame built to not butcher the rs up and just use its forks etc a rs is a really tight little frame and the four stroke engines are abit bigger and fatter than the rs engine so if you custom built a frame you could build it around the engine you are using and just use rs/tz geomatry

262883like that (-:

[budda]

I don't see any reason to change F3. For the foreseeable future there's going to be plenty of 650cc twins and there's more and more 600's being converted to 450cc. There's also people who turn up with machines out of left field (Aprilia engined TigCraft etc), which is great. Since the rules have changed there's at least one 400cc twin 2 stroke in an Aprilia RS frame that I know of too

Interesting that converting 450's to road race bikes has taken off big time overseas but I've only seen about 4 here.

Dont WANT to change Superlite rules, Dont NEED to, as the 450 single idea already fits neatly into the rules as written .... all it will take is for more people to DO it ( build and race one - heaps of retards out there, just lower them and bung bodywork and rearsets on )

Dont require any change to the 125 Class rules EITHER, its all there on a plate and has been for a couple of years now - all it needs is for someone to be FIRST

The 5 guys on the then Commission had over 170 years experience at the pointy end of the Sport, we didnt make these changes for shits and giggles - it was to give you guys, the riders and builders, more scope, more choice, more options for the future ........

seems all we achieved was more and more indecision from more and more people

[crazy man]

I remember you as funny man! aka funny looking, funny smelling... the list goes on but not everyone knows your frames as crazy man frames or your the man behind behind Glenn W's SV frame :) by the way you gonna be at daves tomorrow?yip l will be there think l should change my name to burn out crazy man

[budda]

Ok..here goes
I see 3 types of racers: Club/Street race/ occasional riders of all ages - who with club sub regs (depending on classes popular within club) are pretty well catered for.
Seasoned higher level/national level riders - who regardless of class/cost/age/etc will continue in the sport cos its what they do.
And most importantly..... The existing junior / younger generation riders / and even more importantely the yet to be introduced young riders - who are the future of our sport and for those who wish to see another kiwi on the world stage.... our future champions.

I believe that we do need to look at how we can introduce kids from the same age as junior MotoX into some kind of circuit racing. Minimoto is the obvious choice... dont know why this isnt working in NZ...it should be bursting at the seams..with under 10,s and those who are complaining of the cost of real racing!
I would like to see kids from 10 onwards able to race in classes like the development class at MCC. (The legal ramifications cant be that bad as MX do it) So by aged 13 we have veterans of circuit racing who now need a pathway.
Prolite: Perfect a chance to compete on similar machinary that isnt to compilcated.... where talant will shine through. It will allow the real race experience at national level and straight away the possibility of inter country riding (as many countries run these bikes as a series).

Step 2 -Now is the time to change/set the rules for 125gp / F3 for the future of both NZ & overseas competitors. As MNZ have done the inclusion of 250 machines into the existing class (125) will see people to race a variety of machinary both old / new / and a hybid of the two. Gradually the tide will turn and it will become a more moto 3 type class. And if someone wants to buy a MOTO 3 bike then bring it on.
F3..../ Protwin.. This definately needs some kind of parity (particuallyfor national competition) The current F3 rules are IMHO (trying to cater for every NZer) Protwin should have been an awesome class.... dont know why it isnt. - This years saw very evenly matched bikes with a variety of ages. Top 4 all had at least one win and if Deano hadnt crashed out it would probebly been top 5 taking a win. But sadly lost within the F3 field.

I think plans should be put in place to follow the lines of Budda,s 450 moto idea (and why not include the Ozzy type 450s too).... which as he says would currently fit in, but look at this as the future of F3 (or whatever you call it)
This would be a great step up class / type of bike for up & coming young bloods. A chance to take a step up in power with a bike that has sorted suspension / etc .
IMHO 600,s should be inline with other countries production rules
And superbike should be just that a SUPERBIKE that every young hopeful aspires to ride..... and that pushes the boundries of rider ability and entertains the crowd.
As i said earlier i think clubs bend over backwards to accomodate their members at club level. But would like to see a more defined path of classes/rules for higher level competition.
People such as Maarty / Steveyb / Red Fenton are already bringing in overseas riders and sending Nzers the other way. The likes of Avalon / Jake / John R / Danial M / Travis M are taking it upon themselves. Im sure there will be more..... lets try and make it lots more and much easier to compete on a bike similar to the one at home.
Dont think rules / classes need to follow other countries (too analy) much beyond the 125/250/moto3 class as any youngster who is gonna make it will have made the move by this point....... aged around 16 hopefully.:Punk:
While my main thoughts are with junior development and their part in the future of our sport.... all classes should be open to all ages (although i wouldnt mind an age limit in Prolite (poss 20) to make it a specific junior class)
There........... feel free to shoot me down in flames:nono:

Hard to argue with a fair bit of that Merv .........

[worm13]

yip l will be there think l should change my name to burn out crazy man

im more intrested in when it turns to burnt out crazy man... ive still got more for you to do:bleh::bleh:

[Mental Trousers]

Dont WANT to change Superlite rules, Dont NEED to, as the 450 single idea already fits neatly into the rules as written .... all it will take is for more people to DO it ( build and race one - heaps of retards out there, just lower them and bung bodywork and rearsets on )

Yeah I don't know why there aren't lots of them already. I was seriously looking at getting a chook chaser (either a CRF450 or a Husaberg FS650) and doing exactly that until I got my hands on the CBR.

[budda]

Yeah I don't know why there aren't lots of them already. I was seriously looking at getting a chook chaser (either a CRF450 or a Husaberg 650) and doing exactly that until I got my hands on the CBR.

Pretty simple - no-one wants to be the leader, all prefer to be led, and are looking for "someone" to produce a turnkey bike, then they can bitch about the price and complain that they cant get a "sponsor" to pay for it for them, all "so unfair"

[Mental Trousers]

Pretty simple - no-one wants to be the leader, all prefer to be led, and are looking for "someone" to produce a turnkey bike, then they can bitch about the price and complain that they cant get a "sponsor" to pay for it for them, all "so unfair"

Other classes maybe but I wouldn't have thought F3 was the place for follow the leader types. Honestly, if I'd found a Husaberg at a good price I'd have gone that way. Nothing wrong with a 60+hp/95-100kg thumper.

[budda]

Other classes maybe but I wouldn't have thought F3 was the place for follow the leader types. Honestly, if I'd found a Husaberg at a good price I'd have gone that way. Nothing wrong with a 60+hp/95-100kg thumper.

quite agree, thats why I'm pushing for it ...... sorry, cynicism sandwich for dinner

[slowpoke]

But would like to see a more defined path of classes/rules for higher level competition.


Couldn't agree more Merv, I think this is one of the biggest issues within our sport. There is no clear defined path for up and coming riders, no concentration of talent to maximise competition and fast track talent. Until this is addressed, running Moto3 or Buckets or GP125 or Protwins is a moot point. Once they are ready to move on they'll all drift away into different classes and you're left wondering what's the point?

And Good luck with your Superbike idea. Most kids up our way would rather race an F2 bike for the extra track time. So much for dreaming big eh?

[CHOPPA]

I was talking to a guy at MX today I used to race with. His 13 yo is now No3 in NZ and I was trying to talk him into RR. He asked me what class he would start in, to be honest I wasnt really sure what to say....

I said 125 but its not like he can go out and buy a new 125 for his son to race

[Brian d marge]

Couldn't agree more Merv, I think this is one of the biggest issues within our sport. There is no clear defined path for up and coming riders, no concentration of talent to maximise competition and fast track talent. Until this is addressed, running Moto3 or Buckets or GP125 or Protwins is a moot point. Once they are ready to move on they'll all drift away into different classes and you're left wondering what's the point?

And Good luck with your Superbike idea. Most kids up our way would rather race an F2 bike for the extra track time. So much for dreaming big eh?

I take it you didnt read what I typed ..again ,m, and again and again

in summary

no clear path from start to to , with no clear out comes

moto3 , engine
moto2 chassis
motogp prototype

even in this short summary , engineers AND riders ( you forgot it was a team effort ) you can see a complete career path

no let me add this , I as a product producer , NEED ( and am willing to pay) for feed back to quantify my designs

not happening in NZ ( as far as I can see)

MX , sure kids , 125,250......clear path AND cheap (ish)

Road racing ... ,,yes well ( I haven’t seen it yet )

You ain’t going to be on the world stage until you MOVE to the world stage

Buckets , Honestly is a untapped area , that is sadly under promoted , clean it up , add a touch of professionalism and that is a diamond d right there , a pure win win ,,,,

Stephen

now sod off and let me get pissed

[Yow Ling]

Buckets , Honestly is a untapped area , that is sadly under promoted , clean it up , add a touch of professionalism and that is a diamond d right there , a pure win win ,,,,

Stephen

now sod off and let me get pissed

Buckets is slick, and biggest rr class in NZ. Wot you talking about Willis?

[scott411]

I was talking to a guy at MX today I used to race with. His 13 yo is now No3 in NZ and I was trying to talk him into RR. He asked me what class he would start in, to be honest I wasnt really sure what to say....

I said 125 but its not like he can go out and buy a new 125 for his son to race

that has always been the problem with Road Racing, you have never been able to walk into a dealer and buy a racebike, put numbers on it and turn up like you can in motocross, (it was good to see Hyosung do this with thier GT250's this year)

and not many people realise the time and money it goes into prepping a road bike into race spec,

[codgyoleracer]

crazy man whos he?? never seen em!! but do you need to have a complete frame rebuild surely you can use a existing gp bike for it, but the time you get a frame built by all the good gp bits plus engine exhaust electrics hello pro twin you seem a better option to me! why a hand built chassis someone make a kit for the engine conversion for example ford with a straight 6 to a v8... dont see any of them building new frames to suit

Isnt he the guy thats adjusting the steering rake on your "pre89 400...... ?" :innocent: :laugh:

[codgyoleracer]

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRY BABIES!
What are you wanting to do, regulate the haves and have nots? The guys who can find the funding from those who cannot?
Way too much self centered chest beating going on. If someone wants to run a moto3 (and has the resourses to do so) great! Let them go for it!
What next? shell we mediate the rules to hobble Stroudy because he and Karen do their homework and get the funding, or Choppa for the same? What about Glen (Williams) for having a sucessful business that allows him to participate at the level he does. How about Josh McGrath or Troy Guenther because their perants could afford it!
Perhaps we should put rules in place to stop riders like Travis Merkel and Avalon Biddle from getting rides overseas because they have the funding?
Pull your heads out of the sand and harden up! or try another sport!!!!!!!!!!!!


Your quite right marty, where would i be without $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :-) ,

Nah , totaly agree - lets all vote for a spending cap that matches the lowest possible investment, - now that would be quality racing.

[CHOPPA]

Your quite right marty, where would i be without $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :-) ,

Nah , totaly agree - lets all vote for a spending cap that matches the lowest possible investment, - no that would be quality racing.


There would be a few people that have been helped by a few of you $$$ mate! Myself included...

Cant wait to see how you go on the 1199

[codgyoleracer]

There would be a few people that have been helped by a few of you $$$ mate! Myself included...

Cant wait to see how you go on the 1199

Who told you ?, - I only bought it because it was expensive..........

[worm13]

Isnt he the guy thats adjusting the steering rake on your "pre89 400...... ?" :innocent: :laugh:

Yeah its starting to look more and more like a harley now... gonna pull the ohlins out and weld a solid block in and turn in to a hard tail too!

[Billy]

Who told you ?, - I only bought it because it was expensive..........

Is that the one you ordered the 848 stickers for ????

[jellywrestler]

I was talking to a guy at MX today I used to race with. His 13 yo is now No3 in NZ and I was trying to talk him into RR. He asked me what class he would start in, to be honest I wasnt really sure what to say....

so why didn't 250 prolite come to mind Choppa?

[CHOPPA]

so why didn't 250 prolite come to mind Choppa?

I wont start that old debate again :shutup:

[SWERVE]

so why didn't 250 prolite come to mind Choppa?

Exactly Spyda.
But remember they are only learner bikes and slow as shit......................... and not proper race bikes. The only proper race classes are 125gp / 600s / superbikes. And why would the current NZ 3 in MotoX want to race on anything but a brand new "proper" race bike. Cos if you turned up at National MX on a less than new bike you would be classed as the poor kid from the boondocks.
Sorry Choppa...... huge dose of sarcasm but maybe just maybe he should give prolite a go. If he blows the likes of Aaron Hasssan / Tyler Lincoln into the weeds straight away he will soon be snapped up for a proper ride.

[Ivan]

you answered it yourself motox guys run the new bikes and are proper race bikes why would they wanna run a commuter bike with race fairings on it its like turning up to mx nats witha fmf pipe and some graphics on a xr200

prolites are a awsome class but 125gp is the only genuine race bike class in nz we need to find a way of actually getting the dirt kids to come over and hey most of them are probably riding 250fs allready so could convert what they using to be honest i think we need a serious supermoto class with 250fs and then 450fs and this could be the way to get the dirt kids over if they enjoy the seal they will hopefully buy a road race bike

[jellywrestler]

I wont start that old debate again :shutup:

from memory that was last year, we've just had a season where there were 19 bikes on the grid at some meetings and two races where the win was by 2 thousandths of a second keen to see where it sits in peoples views now

[budda]

you answered it yourself motox guys run the new bikes and are proper race bikes why would they wanna run a commuter bike with race fairings on it its like turning up to mx nats witha fmf pipe and some graphics on a xr200

prolites are a awsome class but 125gp is the only genuine race bike class in nz we need to find a way of actually getting the dirt kids to come over and hey most of them are probably riding 250fs allready so could convert what they using to be honest i think we need a serious supermoto class with 250fs and then 450fs and this could be the way to get the dirt kids over if they enjoy the seal they will hopefully buy a road race bike

The wrong bike riders are NEVER going to enjoy a taste of real racing if they have to buy or build a bike first - that takes a degree of commitment they are simply not ready for until they have had their OWN personal epiphany

If some on here stopped typing and started building, we would have proof of the concept, and a stock of machines to convert these poor unknowing riders with, bring them to the light etc

Imagine having our own version of "Mugs Day", like we used to have at Speedway - easiest way to get someone keen is to give them that taste ....... same system that works so well at Buckets, and is now working in ProLites ........."here, have a go on mine"

[CHOPPA]

from memory that was last year, we've just had a season where there were 19 bikes on the grid at some meetings and two races where the win was by 2 thousandths of a second keen to see where it sits in peoples views now

Its a great class and we are seeing some good young riders come through from it.

I came from MX and I believe my attitude would be typical of any top MX racer and that is that those particular bikes and that class wouldnt be appealing to me.

[budda]

Its a great class and we are seeing some good young riders come through from it.

I came from MX and I believe my attitude would be typical of any top MX racer and that is that those particular bikes and that class wouldnt be appealing to me.

But you CAN fit ball-tickling seat covers and gayboy sticker kits on these too Choppa

[Kevin G]

I was talking to a guy at MX today I used to race with. His 13 yo is now No3 in NZ and I was trying to talk him into RR. He asked me what class he would start in, to be honest I wasnt really sure what to say....

I said 125 but its not like he can go out and buy a new 125 for his son to race

Yes he can, new ones are available, I know of 4 that I can have here in 3 weeks.
Better off with a well sorted proven bike which we also have available....

[CHOPPA]

Yes he can, new ones are available, I know of 4 that I can have here in 3 weeks.
Better off with a well sorted proven bike which we also have available....

Whats your 125 worth Kevin?

[Kevin G]

Whats your 125 worth Kevin?

Priceless.....we have two available, Tim McArthurs old bike that Seth rode (tried to wreck) at this years nats which is the most successful 125 currently available as it has won 3 championships since 2009 with Tim, Jake and Seth. $8500 for that one. It is on the work bench at the moment undergoing a full strip, check and repair.....
The other one is my own trusty steed, this is the one Tim rode at the GP and TT this year (dont talk about the TT) Great wee bike and fast.
It hauled my fat arse around Levels the other weekend and I still managed to hold the tow on Mat Hoogie (believe me this is a big deal as I cannot tuck to save myself) $7500 for this one.
All bikes have det counters, quick shifters, VHM heads, curve benders, low gear boxes, spare wheels, warmers, jets, sprockets and spares.

021 379030 or 03 4544016 if you want to discuss.

[Brian d marge]

2007 Cr125 on tard me for 4500 m here on kb a cr450 m for about 5k

so 8 k for a 2009 rs ( admittedly with spares ) looks in comparison?


Stephen

[Cleve]

Just add a class to the buckets allowing race or prototye parts to be used and let New Zealander do what they are goood at ( and famous for ) ,,making something out of nothing ,,some nice work already going on in them buckets at the mo

Needs a bit of a publicity make over though !

Stephen

In Sapporo from 13th May

[budda]

2007 Cr125 on tard me for 4500 m here on kb a cr450 m for about 5k

so 8 k for a 2009 rs ( admittedly with spares ) looks in comparison?

..... pretty bloody good buying, and excellent value considering the knowledge that comes with it FOC

[Bert]

The thread has gone a little sideways from what Steve first asked questions about.


Seems as there is knowledge on here regarding engines and tuning; maybe we could have a small discussion regarding:

The Moto3 engine rules have an RPM limit of 14k, is this going to be enforced here???


If one was to look at building a Moto3 bike out of a MX motor which would be the engine of choice? and why?

And what would one need to do to it; to make it last? or what would be the idea changes to the engine configuration (intake design etc.)?

[budda]

The thread has gone a little sideways from what Steve first asked questions about.


Seems as there is knowledge on here regarding engines and tuning; maybe we could have a small discussion regarding:

The Moto3 engine rules have an RPM limit of 14k, is this going to be enforced here???


If one was to look at building a Moto3 bike out of a MX motor which would be the engine of choice? and why?

And what would one need to do to it; to make it last? or what would be the idea changes to the engine configuration (intake design etc.)?

New Zealand does not have Moto3 rules, there was never intention to try and recreate the wheel like that ........

What we DO have is the rules as written in the MNZ manual of Motorsport ....... quite clear, unambiguous and freely available to all who choose to look. We do indeed have a proud history of "building" things, and this set of rules leaves the door open to free-thinkers throughout the land to build what they consider to be a competitive "125 type" racebike almost without restriction, other than engine TYPE and SIZE. The only real restrictions are regarding the rolling chassis, so that we have like machines competing with each other

This didnt happen overnight, a group of people have been encouraging this development for years, beavering away in the background, even to the extent that the tyres used by so many to great effect in the last few years are, in fact, designed and made for four stroke machines, and imported as a conscious decision to utilise the very latest technology for what is a great class !!!!!

Back in the day when I raced 125's, you had either a converted MX machine, or a TA Yamaha, or one of the new-fangled european-sourced things like a Waddon. Bikes like Brent Jones ran so successfully were proof if ever it was needed that the Kiwi CAN build a competitive racebike ........ yes, it probably seems more like a bucket these days, but was/is a cool bit of kit, and bloody fast for the day

The Moriwaki 250 would have stayed on the drawing board unless "someone" had the nads to A/ build and develop the thing, and B/ put it on the market.
NO reson why an enterprising Kiwi couldnt develop frame kits for MX motors and sell 'em, all it takes is the will, cos the knowledge is certainly there

Its a piece of piss to come up with reasons NOT to do something, been guilty of that myself, but come ON guys, just DO IT ............

[Kevin G]

A couple of things re moto 3

Some one mentioned a price for a piston earlier in the thread, no idea why it is that much, my info from HRC is that in NZD they would be $1375 for the complete piston kit (rings, pin, clips etc) inc GST Still expensive but not $2600 just for the piston!!! Ironical that the head assembly (no valves or cams) is only $1250..head cheaper than a piston....go figure

Noise may be an issue as moto 3 do not have to have to comply with the FIM noise limits, do they go OK with proper mufflers on them?

A 250 MX based engine in my opinion will never be competitive against the two strokes or if it could be it certainly will never be reliable. They are not built for sustained high RPM use that road racing requires, just an opinion.

[CHOPPA]

The rules dont have to change. As it is now your allowed to race a 125cc 2 stroke or a 250cc 4 stroke single so you can buy a Moto3 bike and race it NOW

[budda]

The rules dont have to change. As it is now your allowed to race a 125cc 2 stroke or a 250cc 4 stroke single so you can buy a Moto3 bike and race it NOW

GO TO THE TOP OF THE CLASS, YOUNG MAN ................. Well spotted Choppa !!!!!!!!!

[steveyb]

Just heard from KTM Oceania that KTM will be releasing their customer Moto3 bike in the new year.
No pricing at this stage.

[Kevin G]

Just heard from KTM Oceania that KTM will be releasing their customer Moto3 bike in the new year.
No pricing at this stage.

Their customer GP125 machines were $85,000 for just the bike......

[steveyb]

Their customer GP125 machines were $85,000 for just the bike......

Yeah, exactly. So I expect to need to be sitting down when I finally do hear the price!!

Incidentally, there is a goodly number of nearly new RC125's (ex Rookies Cup USA) sitting in the US for sale but not being sold.

Roll up, roll up.......

[RDjase]

http://www.nzsbk.com/2012/05/bsb-2012-round-4-motostar.html


2012 NZ 125 #3 Hafiq Azmi in Round 4 Motostar Championship
125 vs 250 diesel !

12 laps of bloody close racing

Love the commentry with the 250 being called a cement mixer