France and Ireland pass hi-viz law

[Muppet]

Ironic me starting this after seeing the thread "An Investigation Of Motorcycle Rider Use Of And Attitudes To High Visibility Gear".

Perhaps their people can have a chat with the French and Irish people?

Anyway, I was waiting for 'er indoors to come out of work on Riccarton Ave today and was reading this article...

"France and Ireland pass hi-viz law"

Article in April 2012 issue of 'RiDE' says this new law, which requires riders and pillions to wear reflective gear with a total surface area of at least 150 square centimetres, comes into force in France next January (2013) and in Ireland in 2014.

About 5 mins later I saw a biker on a mid sized naked bike riding towards me with headlight on, guy had all the gear etc Thing is had he been wearing hi-viz or reflective gear, it wouldn't have made one bit of difference to me spotting him frankly.

After the amount of nobs I see riding around Christchurch with no gloves, I think authorities should worry more about protective gear than reflective gear. Helmets, boots and gloves and jackets and pants with armour would be better than a few pieces of shiny tape!

Doubtless I'm breaching someone's rights or worse, hurting their feelings:baby: by making this statement.

[rickstv]

Thats a 2 inch strip 1 foot long in the old money.

[Muppet]

Thats a 2 inch strip 1 foot long in the old money.

Which is my language luckily. So it's roughly the size of a your standard 30 cm ruler then? Bloody hell, like that's going to save lives. I can just see the thousands of poms who tour France every year going for that one!

[bogan]

Thats a 2 inch strip 1 foot long in the old money.

Might be some more inventive (and offensive) arrangements of the high vis area I think...

[george formby]

Something to bare in mind about France. If you do have an off & an Ambo or two turn up the first thing they ask you for is a credit card. Private services always beat the state ambos to the scene.

Heaven forbid that we head down this road. We are still lucky barstewards

[Zedder]

The future for NZ?

Police in Aussie are pushing harder for compulsory hi-viz.

However, they also want to be able to enforce wearing of helmet, jacket, pants, gloves and boots of a type approved by a roading authority.

Electronic tags on bikes to track speedsters are on the list as well.

[slofox]

I seem to remember a post on here some time ago that showed pics of jackets that had led strips either stuck on or built in. Anyone else remember that?


EDIT: Kinda like this...(I found a linky).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DEhE7ER9hDY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I would probably wear something like this or something with reflective piping. But I think the standard "high viz" stuff that everyone wears is too ubiquitous nowadays to be fully effective. Sensory overload does happen.

[speights_bud]

Should Pass a law to make Gloves Compulsory, in a crash your hands are almost guaranteed to touch the road and it'd save ACC $$ from al them feckin scooter riders. should also pass over ankle boot law too

[speights_bud]

Thats a 2 inch strip 1 foot long in the old money.

Shit thats lucky, it'll only just fit on the underside of a boot :rolleyes:

[DODO``]

About 5 mins later I saw a biker on a mid sized naked bike riding towards me with headlight on, guy had all the gear etc Thing is had he been wearing hi-viz or reflective gear, it wouldn't have made one bit of difference to me spotting him frankly.



believe you me I don't like hi-viz either but lets be correct here. person with hi-viz IS lot more visible than the ones in black. Especially at night. Not to mention brightly coloured helmets.

I try to wear one at night because i know the difference. if you cant tell the difference, have someone take photo or video you in other car / bike.
that would be the difference the world will see. but yeah, I think they look ugly as hell.

What I think is wrong is government forcing motorcyclist what to wear. There are other ways to educate motorists to get bikes more aware.

Its not like they are banning black cars because they are not as visible as yellow cars. I dont get why they are just being dicks to motorcyclists.

[Subike]

OMG
this argument has been going on for years
Hi vis verses non hi vis verses black verses colours verses all the gear verses only some gear.

How about you all just accept the responsibility that you are riding something that others often just dont see
and adjust your riding to suit that,
No amount of safety gear is going to stop the twat who is riding like a faggot believing his Hi Viss is a flag that all will see.

Treat each and every journey as one that you need 100% concentration 100% of the time.
At all times be aware of what is going on around you, and make sure you act in such a way that you do get seen by other drivers.
thats not hard to do and can be done inside the limits of the law.

[chasio]

OMG
this argument has been going on for years
Hi vis verses non hi vis verses black verses colours verses all the gear verses only some gear.

How about you all just accept the responsibility that you are riding something that others often just dont see
and adjust your riding to suit that,
No amount of safety gear is going to stop the twat who is riding like a faggot believing his Hi Viss is a flag that all will see.

Treat each and every journey as one that you need 100% concentration 100% of the time.
At all times be aware of what is going on around you, and make sure you act in such a way that you do get seen by other drivers.
thats not hard to do and can be done inside the limits of the law.

Agreed.

And the law as described in the OP is for reflective materials, not actually for the fluoro fabrics (orange, yellow, etc.) that many people would consider hi-viz.

[DODO``]

OMG
this argument has been going on for years
Hi vis verses non hi vis verses black verses colours verses all the gear verses only some gear.

How about you all just accept the responsibility that you are riding something that others often just dont see
and adjust your riding to suit that,
No amount of safety gear is going to stop the twat who is riding like a faggot believing his Hi Viss is a flag that all will see.

Treat each and every journey as one that you need 100% concentration 100% of the time.
At all times be aware of what is going on around you, and make sure you act in such a way that you do get seen by other drivers.
thats not hard to do and can be done inside the limits of the law.

+1:headbang:

[Big Dave]

It's human evolution. The more people there are - the more people there are making stupid fuckin' rules.

[jonbuoy]

Won´t be long before clothing manufacturers incorporate it into the jackets, won´t look too bad if its done right. Don´t know why its not done already - it doesn´t have to look too nerdy.

[Kickaha]

and it'd save ACC $$ from al them feckin scooter riders. should also pass over ankle boot law too

So how about you tell us how many scoooter riders are claiming ACC for hand related injuries and what it costs us?

[Madness]

It's all a waste of energy. The way the economy is going in this country currently it won't be long before all of us have our regos on hold for lack of funds and resort to taking the fucking bus.

[pete376403]

believe you me I don't like hi-viz either but lets be correct here. person with hi-viz IS lot more visible than the ones in black. Especially at night. Not to mention brightly coloured helmets..

I've posted this before but...

Black biker jacket, with and without illumination. That jacket glows incredibly brightly when lit up by headlights.

[awa355]

I'm waiting for the day, the Govt decide to implement a ban on motorcycles on certain days. ( only with our safety in mind, of course)

'it's below freezing',

The winds are too strong,

The police have banned bikes from this road or that, because its considered too dangerous. . :spanking:


I believe certain areas in the states have had this type of control in place for years.

[Voltaire]

When I was in Ireland 8 years ago bikes didn't even need an annual test....the pendulum has swung the other way there now.

[speights_bud]

So how about you tell us how many scoooter riders are claiming ACC for hand related injuries and what it costs us?

Couldn't do that if i tried, i bet they are lumped in with the 'motorcycle' statistics, And besides this is KB, I'm entitled to my biased Generalizations! :rolleyes:

[rastuscat]

Irony. Muppets biggest-ever crash happened when he was wearing hi viz. It seems that the tree that hit him saw him coming and timed the fall perfectly. If he wasn't wearing hi viz the tree wouldn't have seen him, and he wouldn't have crashed.

:girlfight:

[BMWST?]

OMG
this argument has been going on for years
Hi vis verses non hi vis verses black verses colours verses all the gear verses only some gear.

How about you all just accept the responsibility that you are riding something that others often just dont see
and adjust your riding to suit that,
No amount of safety gear is going to stop the twat who is riding like a faggot believing his Hi Viss is a flag that all will see.

Treat each and every journey as one that you need 100% concentration 100% of the time.
At all times be aware of what is going on around you, and make sure you act in such a way that you do get seen by other drivers.
thats not hard to do and can be done inside the limits of the law.


talk to other road users too...they need to concentrate on what they are doing.You can do everything you can do to avoid an "accident" with them but they can still get you,no matter what you do.

[Swoop]

The hi-viz retardedness was on "Deal or no Deal" tonight (5pm - Prime).
The knob-end from the audience was wearing a full vest and wore it throughout the programme.:tugger:

He wasn't injured in any way, shape or form but luckily he was also provided with a yellow hard hat for part of the show.:rolleyes:

Where are these morons born and how do we flush the gene pool of their disease?

[Subike]

talk to other road users too...they need to concentrate on what they are doing.You can do everything you can do to avoid an "accident" with them but they can still get you,no matter what you do.

Totally agree with you on this,
But other road users are such a diverse range of personalities etc, there is no way you ever could educate them all
Bikers on the other hand are normally ferocious individuals, and like being in the limelight.
They Might, just might listen more attentively.
As for that incident, where no matter what you do the cage nails you.
Being aware can reduce the injury damage if this happens,
Knowing that a vehicle is going to take you out, that few milliseconds of alertness on your part could make the difference.
The difference between life and death could be the difference between being alert or complacent .

[98tls]

Xactly,after 40 years on 2 wheels i find the hi vis thing :lol::lol::lol:if they cant see a headlight a hi vis is of little use,motorcyclists already know how dangerous it is what about educating the rest on the road,starting with the elderly for my money,no disrespect to them hell i am heading that way myself but fuck they cause some carnage.

[swbarnett]

Should Pass a law to make Gloves Compulsory, in a crash your hands are almost guaranteed to touch the road and it'd save ACC $$ from al them feckin scooter riders. should also pass over ankle boot law too
How about one banning bikes?


No, better to repeal all the "personal saftey laws" and get the government the fuck out of our lives.

[swbarnett]

believe you me I don't like hi-viz either but lets be correct here. person with hi-viz IS lot more visible than the ones in black.
Only if you're looking.

The problem, if there really is one, is that people don't look. Hell, if they can't see trains with bloody great search lights on the front how are they going to see us?

I ride ALL in black. I am seen more now than I ever have been. I have significantly fewer SMIDSYs (not that I got many anyway, and btw, I've never had one result in an accident).

When push comes to shove I have to side with Katman on this one - I don't care who sees me, I see them!


What I think is wrong is government forcing motorcyclist what to wear. There are other ways to educate motorists to get bikes more aware.

Its not like they are banning black cars because they are not as visible as yellow cars. I dont get why they are just being dicks to motorcyclists.
Exactly!

[speights_bud]

How about one banning bikes?


No, better to repeal all the "personal saftey laws" and get the government the fuck out of our lives.

Enforcing safety gear seems like a practical thing to do, a high vis isn't going to keep skin on & we already have a law on helmets, or do you not wear one of those because Fuck the gubberment they are interfering with my riding?

[swbarnett]

seems like a practical thing to do, a high vis isn't going to keep skin on & we already have a law on helmets, or do you not wear one of those because Fuck the gubberment they are interfering with my riding?
No, I do wear one. Becuase I firmly believe in the benifits thereof. As I do for my leather jacket, gloves and boots (and often pants). What I object to is having the government involved in any way in my choices about my personal safety. Where do you draw the line? The way we're going driving of any kind will be outlawed in favour of automated roads in the name of safety. This and other measure are going to take all pleasure from life and send the suicide rate through the roof. How safe is that?

[speights_bud]

No, I do wear one. Becuase I firmly believe in the benifits thereof. As I do for my leather jacket, gloves and boots (and often pants). What I object to is having the government involved in any way in my choices about my personal safety. Where do you draw the line? The way we're going driving of any kind will be outlawed in favour of automated roads in the name of safety. This and other measure are going to take all pleasure from life and send the suicide rate through the roof. How safe is that?

i agree, i used to ride my 125 scoot in full gear because at 100km/h it seemed stupid not to.

I hate the nanny-ness of the Govt as much as the next person, but it's pretty obvious that a lot of people who aren't wearing the Gear don't think that they need it, if they needed it they would find a way to afford or obtain it. Riders who think this way won't invest in it unless they absolutely have to. We all bitch on here about people riding scooters and bikes with Jandals, no gloves, shorts t-shirts etc. I don't have the numbers but we are bitching about our ACC Levies going up, but what are we doing to reduce the costs of treating the injury's that are going to continue to happen unless change is made? remember the Hi-vis thing is only going to help being seen by other motorists, it won't stop people doing stupid things and crashing all on their own.

Again the Govt can get stuffed when it comes to interfering with our personal choices, but remember some people are too stupid or ignorant to think about looking after themselves.

[Maha]

You have to look closely at ..why the call for such a Law in the first place?
A Government of the day have not just pulled the legislation out of thin air.
Trick is, to be proactive rather than take on a foot stomping approach.
Being (held) accountable for how you perform on the road is a good place to start.

[MSTRS]

And the law as described in the OP is for reflective materials, not actually for the fluoro fabrics (orange, yellow, etc.) that many people would consider hi-viz.

Yep. Hi-viz and Reflective = 2 different things.
Most hi-viz clothing seem to contain some reflective strips


Won´t be long before clothing manufacturers incorporate it into the jackets, won´t look too bad if its done right. Don´t know why its not done already - it doesn´t have to look too nerdy.

Lots of cordura gear has sewn-in reflective piping and has done for years. Have a look for dull grey (usually) stuff on such gear...that's the reflective stuff.


Xactly,after 40 years on 2 wheels i find the hi vis thing :lol::lol::lol:if they cant see a headlight a hi vis is of little use,motorcyclists already know how dangerous it is

Be aware...moves are afoot by NZTA to introduce daytime headlight use by ALL vehicles.
Then we'll only 'stand out' if we turn ours off and wear plain black. But that'll be illegal...

[jonbuoy]

I know most of it is a token gesture, not a 1 inch stripe.

[pete376403]

How about one banning bikes?

No, better to repeal all the "personal saftey laws" and get the government the fuck out of our lives.

Ain't gonna happen. Black boxes in cars mandatory in the US after 2015, expect the same thing to trickle down to bikes thereafter. One day we're going to look back on Hi-Viz requirements with a degree of nostalgia.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/6801043/Black-boxes-mandatory-in-US-Cars-by-2015

[p.dath]

Ain't gonna happen. Black boxes in cars mandatory in the US after 2015, expect the same thing to trickle down to bikes thereafter. One day we're going to look back on Hi-Viz requirements with a degree of nostalgia.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/6801043/Black-boxes-mandatory-in-US-Cars-by-2015

Wasn't this just a proposal? Has the bill actually been passed?

[Zedder]

No, I do wear one. Becuase I firmly believe in the benifits thereof. As I do for my leather jacket, gloves and boots (and often pants). What I object to is having the government involved in any way in my choices about my personal safety. Where do you draw the line? The way we're going driving of any kind will be outlawed in favour of automated roads in the name of safety. This and other measure are going to take all pleasure from life and send the suicide rate through the roof. How safe is that?

I'm all for being safe and accountable etc but it's the "drawing of the line" that's a problem.

[pete376403]

Wasn't this just a proposal? Has the bill actually been passed?

"The proposed legislation, has been given the title of 'Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act' and is expected to be passed by the Republican-controlled House shortly."

Lobbyists for insurance companies will be doing their utmost (ie bribes will be paid) to ensure this goes through.

At one time this (black box type technology) wouldn't be viable for cars, but with the degree of electronic control in cars now it's going to be pretty easy, eg. I've got a 2003 Honda Accord, the user guide for just the the navigation system is well over a hundred pages (and thats just the stuff they want the owners to know about).
Once established in cars then the higher end bikes will be made to follow, then trickle down will take its inevitable path.

Your speeding fine and demerits will be in the mail before you get home from the ride. The increase in insurance premium will follow shortly after.

[AllanB]

In post quake ChCh there is so much hi-vis around it has lost all affect.


I don't wear it. Frankly modern cars are so well insulated and full of comfort features and things to twiddle with while driving it is amazing that anyone gets anywhere without a accident.

What percentage of motorcycle accidents do not involve another vehicle? Hi-vis will could be helpful finding the rider on the side of the road in these cases.....

[swbarnett]

We all bitch on here about people riding scooters and bikes with Jandals, no gloves, shorts t-shirts etc.
I used to. Since I've been debating aspects of personal responsibility I've come to realise that it's their choice. It doesn't bother me like it used to and I'm prepared to pay my fair share of any increased ACC costs (if there are any) to protect the individual's right to be themselves.


the Hi-vis thing is only going to help being seen by other motorists,
That's assuming it actually works. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest it doesn't.


it won't stop people doing stupid things and crashing all on their own.
Agreed. This is a different argument entirely.


Again the Govt can get stuffed when it comes to interfering with our personal choices, but remember some people are too stupid or ignorant to think about looking after themselves.
Stupidity is part of being human. ALL of us have done stupid things at times (and still do). The phrase "too stupid or ignorant to think about looking after themselves." could apply to any one of us depending on who's saying it. To a lot of non-bikers it applies to every biker by definition.

All judgements of stupidity are relative to one's own stupidity. Because of this no-one has the right to pass judgement on another because they percieve the other's level of stupidity unacceptable. This leads logically to the fact that no government has the right to enforce any level of personal safety.



Ain't gonna happen. Black boxes in cars mandatory in the US after 2015, expect the same thing to trickle down to bikes thereafter. One day we're going to look back on Hi-Viz requirements with a degree of nostalgia.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/6801043/Black-boxes-mandatory-in-US-Cars-by-2015
Which is why now is the time to stand up and say ENOUGH!



You have to look closely at ..why the call for such a Law in the first place?
I think it's just the next step of the slippery slope.


A Government of the day have not just pulled the legislation out of thin air.
In a way that's probably what happened. Some politician has a SMIDSY and blames the biker for not being "visible enough" instead of admitting they weren't looking. Then they find a number of dubious studies that show Hi-Vis works in reducing accidents (even though it's only a statistical correlation, not a proven causation). Next thing you find is that the bandwagon is well and truly rolling.


Trick is, to be proactive rather than take on a foot stomping approach.
I think both are called for. Yes, "we" as a group need to take more responsibility for our own safety. At the same time we need to demand that we be allowed to do exactly that.


Being (held) accountable for how you perform on the road is a good place to start.
I think a good size skin graft is a pretty good way of being held accountable. Way better than any financial or license penaltys.

[Conquiztador]

Re black boxes:
A while ago I watched Knight Rider on TV. He was following a group of bikies in his car KIT. He asked the car to turn off the bikes, so the car sent a "signal" through the power lines in the power-poles and all bikes stopped. Apart from one. He asked KIT why the Leader of the gang did not stop. The answer (in a robotic voice): "The bike is a 1976 Harley Davidson Showelhead. It has no electronics". So the solution to avoiding having a black box is clear: Don't buy a new bike...

Re Reflex strips:
When young and in Finland the sun would get up 10am and settle at 2pm in middle of winter. We would go to school and come home from school in the dark using the road on our bikes or walking. We used to have a square reflex that was fitted with a safety pin that we took out from our pockets when on the road. They only worked in the dark and when car lights were on. To have reflex strips on the bikes and/or the gear so a biker can be seen at night time seems strange as we all have our lights on. If someone at night time can not see our lights what good is any reflex stuff? And they do not really work daytime.

Re Day Glow Gear:
This is the yellow/orange/green gear that police and road workers (and others these days) wear when on the roads so that drivers will see them and they will hopefully avoid being run over. The way I read the compulsory 150 square cm patches in France and Ireland is that this is NOT about day glow, but about the above mentioned reflex stuff. Night time the day glow is useless. Day time it is debatable if it works on a bike. On a sports bike it can not be seen from the front. And if a backpack is used then not from the rear either. Considering that bikes now have compulsory lights on there is no "need" for dayglow from the front. (If someone can not see the headlights, then no dayglow will make any difference). From behind perhaps. But be realistic, apart from scooters and some small commuter bikes (and all these are used in city traffic at 50-70Km/h anyhow) no car has any reason to worry about a bike that is at the front of them. Very few bikers stay there...
So then we have the day glow advantages from the side. This would only apply when someone pulls out from a side road/in a crossing. On a main road the bike will travel at 80 - 100km/h (or above...). That is a split second to pass a driveway. So for the day glow to stop any accidents caused by someone pulling out from their driveway the rider would have to be almost stationery for the driver to see the dayglow. And that is not gonna happen. And the only time there will be an accident is if the bike is approaching the crossing/driveway, as when the bike is moving away from there nothing will happen. And when the bike is coming towards the driveway/crossing the headlights are on...

So without putting on my FTW T-shirt re all this crap, I can honestly not see what use all this will have apart from making the gummint and police think they have done something. When in fact the only thing they have achieved is another revenue gathering channel. But perhaps that is the plan all along???

[MSTRS]

...a whole lot of utter sense...
When in fact the only thing they have achieved is another revenue gathering channel. But perhaps that is the plan all along???

Nah, they wouldn't do that, would they? Surely not...

[Maha]

I think both are called for. Yes, "we" as a group need to take more responsibility for our own safety. At the same time we need to demand that we be allowed to do exactly that.


Prove...would be a more apt word Stephen...demand has been tried before, with resounding failure.

[wharekura]

i have a cruiser (albeit a hyo250) and the thought of hiviz is not intriguing. Then I thought what will all the cool fellas in bikey gangs going to do with their gang patches? Imagine - Mongrel mob with hiz viz over their patches - Sacrilege! Or maybe have the bulldog part reflective?

[rickstv]

Someone somewhere thought that 150sq mm hi viz pennants on posty bikes was a good idea.:laugh:

God forbid they think it's a good idea for us.:nono:

[Scuba_Steve]

If you want to maximize your chance of being seen, buy a red bike, red hemet & wear all red gear.
Humans see red before any other colour

Yellow will also get you seen but has a side-effect, Yellow pisses people off.
So if the morons with no clue force all bikers to wear yellow Hi-vis the only effect it's going to have is pissing off the driving population. Reason is "yellow is an eye irritant." there are claims that "babies cry more in yellow rooms, husbands and wives fight more in yellow kitchens, and "stars" throw more tantrums in yellow dressing rooms. etc"

[mashman]

Is this because people ride in the dark with their lights off?

[Eyegasm]

So how about you tell us how many scoooter riders are claiming ACC for hand related injuries and what it costs us?

I currently have 4 scooter riders on my books with hand injuries costing $2500 a week in weekly compensation alone. Don't want to even think of the doctors and hand therapist bills...

[Conquiztador]

I currently have 4 scooter riders on my books with hand injuries costing $2500 a week in weekly compensation alone. Don't want to even think of the doctors and hand therapist bills...

Made me think... When this gummint is so concerned re bikers safety and happy to regulate for our sake so we do not get hurt, perhaps a law stating that all scooters must have bark busters...

[oneofsix]

Made me think... When this gummint is so concerned re bikers safety and happy to regulate for our sake so we do not get hurt, perhaps a law stating that all scooters must have bark busters...

Funny how all the gummint regulation for our safety is to cost us money, one might suspect they are trying to price motorcycling off the market the same as they are doing for Cigarettes and booze.

[Spazman727]

Someone somewhere thought that 150sq mm hi viz pennants on posty bikes was a good idea.:laugh:

God forbid they think it's a good idea for us.:nono:

The only thing those dumb-ass little flags are good for is hitting you on the back when you go under a tree. And fabric Aus Post used faded to almost white within a few weeks.

I wear Hi-vis at night, sometimes, because I've seen other bikers wearing it and it does increase the light up area a little. But as has been said before, most cordura gear already has reflective piping, as does some leather stuff. My old bike pants had a massive reflective surface on the knees which I though was pretty nifty.
I don't think that Hi-Vis should be made mandatory.

[swbarnett]

Prove...would be a more apt word Stephen...demand has been tried before, with resounding failure.
I see where you're coming from and can see your point. I wish it wasn't so but the realist in me says you're right.

Unfortunately it's a war of numbers. And we simply don't have them. If enough of us (and not just bikers) told the government in no uncertain terms that they have no place in our personal safety we wouldn't have to tug our forelocks and ask permission all the time.