Clubmans racing - what's it all about?

[FROSTY]

Hey guys there seems to be a bit of heat on the subject of clubmans racing. Who should and shouldn't be entering.
I always thought that you were allowed in clubbie class unless you were doing lap times 120% or less than the fastest bike in the class you would be eligable for.
Its of interest to me as I'm looking at doing the next summer series on a 600 but thought I'd start out in clubbie till I get a feel for the bike.

[Skunk]

Victoria Motorcycle Clubs Clubbie 'rules':
Clubmans is not a championship class. Clubmans riders are eligible for Clubmans class only. No championship points will be awarded to riders. After reaching a sufficient skill and pace the rider may be moved to an appropriate class if it is safe and practical. As a guide: 'Sufficient pace' will be a mid-to-back of class lap time for the class the bike would otherwise fit. 'Sufficient skill' will be a consensus decision of the race organisers.

[steveyb]

So, when I started racing back in 1990 mumble, the clubman class was where you went to start out, to see how you could go in a racing situation, to develop your skills, to decide what class you wanted to get into.

You were involved in the race meeting so could meet the other riders, check out the different bikes and get tips (good and bad).

Very often Clubman was treated very much as a Run wot ya Brung class where many riders actually rode to the track, took off mirrors, taped up lights and went racing. For the longest time Clubman was also a points class.

But over the past few years Clubman racing (at VMCC anyway) became a place for some good riders to spend their time 'beating up' on truely Clubman riders. Some riders were just spending year after year racing in Clubman which to many seemed pretty pointless. Many thought that the goal was for riders to use the Clubman class as a non-competitive type venue to get an introduction to the sport and then move into a competitive class.

So recently VMCC decided to make the Clubman a truely non-competitive class so that riders would try and move into competitive classes. In order to 'police' it, for want of a better word, laptime thresholds were introduced so that rider could see that they were capable of moving into suitable classes.

There is also a safety element to that decision I feel, in that we have the situation where there are quite skilled riders out in Clubman class on Superbikes and Supersport bikes going very fast in the same race as youth and novice riders on Streetstock and Pro-lite type bikes. Anyone see the trouble there???

[scracha]

Anyone see the trouble there???

Tyrewarmers, slicks and >150bhp bikes mean clubmans is now a completely pointless class that wastes precious track time.

Bung a yellow vest on new riders, give them a scratchie safety test and throw them in a class based on their qualifying time. Don't allow them to score points if they've been dropped to a "lower" class due to low qualifying time. Black flag them if they're dangerous/stupid.

[Ender EnZed]

Hey guys there seems to be a bit of heat on the subject of clubmans racing. Who should and shouldn't be entering.

It should be an entry class, pure and simple. Don't make it attractive posturers, just encourage the idea that it's it's a learning class. Vests won't hurt anyone.

[DEATH_INC.]

It should be an entry class, pure and simple. Don't make it attractive posturers, just encourage the idea that it's it's a learning class.
Yep, I reckon as soon as you lap faster than the slowest average laptime for the class you would run in you should be moved. No points.

[Tony.OK]

Hey guys there seems to be a bit of heat on the subject of clubmans racing. Who should and shouldn't be entering.
I always thought that you were allowed in clubbie class unless you were doing lap times 120% or less than the fastest bike in the class you would be eligable for.
Its of interest to me as I'm looking at doing the next summer series on a 600 but thought I'd start out in clubbie till I get a feel for the bike.

I think the other thread refers to a slightly different situation in that it is about Clubmans at national meetings, that I can understand as a rider that is of moderate pace at club level may be 10 sec slower than Nat level riders, so they would rather go in Clubbies as to not interfere with the top boys, to me if fields are at a good capacity that seems fine, they are still supporting the Nats. Maybe it should be called something else at those meetings?

Clubmans at club meetings I think still has a place, but do ppl need to be in it for the whole series? I'm not so sure, what with all the track days etc now more ppl are up to speed before entering races. Something which dare I say "older" racers didn't have the opportunity to do. Most riders who do track days have an idea of their laptimes at trackdays so its not hard to look at Mylaps and compare with race times, thats how I started it all when I got into it.

Someone like yourself thats had a bit of tracktime may only do 1 meeting in clubbies and know you're comfy again so move into the proper class.

[CHOPPA]

At national events it should work by the 115% rule. If you dont make the 115% cut off in your class instead of packing up and going home there is a class or 'non qualifiers' Clubmens...

[MSTRS]

There is also a safety element to that decision I feel, in that we have the situation where there are quite skilled riders out in Clubman class on Superbikes and Supersport bikes going very fast in the same race as youth and novice riders on Streetstock and Pro-lite type bikes. Anyone see the trouble there???

Don't recall EVER seeing the little bikes entered in Clubbies...400's maybe.

[sinfull]

Tyrewarmers, slicks and >150bhp bikes mean clubmans is now a completely pointless class that wastes precious track time.

Bung a yellow vest on new riders, give them a scratchie safety test and throw them in a class based on their qualifying time. Don't allow them to score points if they've been dropped to a "lower" class due to low qualifying time. Black flag them if they're dangerous/stupid. Pacific club did it for the summer and personally i think it's a great idea !

I know i'm slow, i know my 1050 speed 3 falls into the F1 cat, but power to weight (mine also) i'm only as good as a slow F2 bike/rider, I don't want to go into F1 with it, i'd be just a mobile chicain !

But chuck me in F2 to thrash it about and i could have a whole lot of fun and be slightly competitive against the jap 600's and not hold them who want top points/placings up in the last few laps !~

I know i aint gonna win nothin, it aint about that, but i've done clubbies and won a couple of races, have ever so little race craft now, so clubmans as a seperate class i'd be called a burglar !

SOoooo long story short i won't be entering in the winter series ! but i might think about the next summer series, after talking to Nigel about the new pac class they have (clubmans within classes, going by qualifying times) no points but racing with peers !

[wharfy]

Some people just wanna have fun, race but not have all the drama of campaigning an F1 or F2 bike, let them stay in clubman's, It's great fun I really enjoyed it.

[DidJit]

What is the added drama of campaigning an F1/2/3/4/GP/posties/classics bike? (Serious question.)

[Clivoris]

What is the added drama of campaigning an F1/2/3/4/GP/posties/classics bike? (Serious question.)

Great question. If you are way off the pace in a race class, and nervous you can be a liability to other riders then clubmans is the place for you. If you are at the tail end of the field, but predictable and don't get freaked out by getting lapped, a proper race class is the place for you. There is a degree of subjectivity to deciding what to do. When I started on a 400, I made the decision to enter F3 instead of clubmans because I would be with riders who were more experienced and predictable, and I would have a good idea how I was going against comparable machines. Turned out I was shit, but at least I got a baseline and worked on it, amongst a decent comparison group. Some people hold off on shifting from clubmans partly because they don't want to get in the way of "serious" racers, but also because they like being the fastest of the slowest. Once you're around 115% of the faster times in the class and competition you are looking at, I reckon you should move up. If you're confident and predictable, don't wait that long. The quicker you get out into proper competition the quicker you go. No drama. Even when I was wobbling around in last place, I had nothing but encouragement from the podium owners.

[The Singing Chef]

Cheers for this thread Frosty, I am looking at Clubmans as well to start off with to build on some racecraft and then get into the pro-twin scene when I have enough experience. No problem being passed closely and around corners but still don't feel as if I would be ready. Just need money now, before I look it up, anybody off the top of their head have an idea of prices at an average for a series in Clubmans, or even just a couple of meetings etc... Cheers.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Any poolick (male or female) that enters 'Clubmans' to bolster their ego is a POOLICK.

Tell them to fuck off.

[The Singing Chef]

Mind you, after looking at Qual and Race times for Pro-twins at Puke. If I was going race pace I would be in maybe the lower half of the field which isn't bad to start off in.

...I just want to get out there and race ffs!

[wharfy]

What is the added drama of campaigning an F1/2/3/4/GP/posties/classics bike? (Serious question.)

Mainly running costs, in clubmans of course you can have all the goodies on your bike and spend $30,000 + on the bike to start with if you want but you can also ride a much cheaper bike and forgo the race tyres and warmers and all that stuff. In clubmans you can ride to the track, remove the lights and go for it (as I did to start with) on any reasonable bike (I used a Honda Hornet 900 which is a commuter bike really) I was never in danger of being kicked out into F1 ( the only class the Hornet would be eligible for) Someone with a lot more talent than me could probably get a Hornet to run mid pack in club level F1 but if you are that good you would probably want to have a sports bike. (Any 600 or above would have more power, lighter weight better handling, better brakes etc.) Then you really need to have decent tyres that require warmers, paddock stands, a trailer or van to get it to the track. If you're doing the winter series you will need wets as well cause the race tyres wont work that well ( on you're clubmans bike with good road tyres you can do without wets - if you're careful :) ) . I wasn't shy about spending money when racing the Hornet, I got the suspension done, got an Ohlins shock, tyre warmers, paddock stands (which I strapped to the bike to ride to the track :) ) , replaced the brake pads with up market ones (that needed replacing more frequently). When I got a proper F2 bike (Daytona 675) the cost of running it went up considerably, I went faster but, (crashed a LOT more) replaced the tyre and brake pads more often changed the oil and filters more often, entered more classes used more fuel, got a van .....
Some other classes will of course be a lot cheaper than F1/F2 but I have no experience with them. Many people recommended I get a pro twin when I said I wanted to preserve my road bike and get a race bike as that would be a good logical step up from clubmans, but of course there is nothing logical about racing a motorcycle anyway so you might as well get a bike that turns you on so you WANT to ride at every opportunity and the 675 was eligible for the most classes :)
Also there is the pressure of being out on the track with REALLY FAST guy's some people find the idea of Andrew Stroud, or Craig or Choppa or ... (think of almost anyone in F1/F2 in my case) zooming up the inside of you going into Dunlop at 40 or 50 k's faster a bit intimidating, I don't mind, I hold my line, and I know that they know what they are doing ( I does make you realize your place in the cosmos though :) - to quote the speights add) but others don't enjoy it.
There are a number of racers who only want to race clubmans, they are not there to burgle the class and they really enjoy the racing and being part of the scene.

I guess the point of this whole rave is that I think clubmans is a valid class for a number of different types of racers, those on their way up, those on their way down, and anyone who wants to be part of the race scene and just have fun racing - even though it is not as intense as F1/F2 etc. it IS racing and way better than a track day !!!

[Deano]

But over the past few years Clubman racing (at VMCC anyway) became a place for some good riders to spend their time 'beating up' on truely Clubman riders.

*Cough* Peter Tanner and Andrew (Grizz) at Nats a few years back *Cough* LOL

[FROSTY]

Ya see for me I always saw clubmans as being the next step for someone who had done a few trackdays and wanted to give racing a try (at club level). Rock up with the bike in race legal nick and your gear all legal then get a day licence and go out and race.

Correct me if I'm wrong but clubmans at the nats was ONLY created as a class because someone felt sorry for all the guys who (for example) travelled all the way to invergiggle from dauckland and diddn't make the 115% in their class.
Darn long way to travel to not even get to turn a wheel in your respective class.

The question I would ask (at national level) is If there arent FULL grids in a class then why bother with the 115% rule?
If its a case of the grid is overloaded then why not split the class into a and B grade ?

[ktm]

Racing at Manfeild in Clubmans today, 13's and 14's, FUCK OFF

[jasonu]

*Cough* Peter Tanner and Andrew (Grizz) at Nats a few years back *Cough* LOL

And the red head guy on the Ducati in the late 80's early 90's.
Used to win by a mile, what a champ...

[Crasherfromwayback]

And the red head guy on the Ducati in the late 80's early 90's.
Used to win by a mile, what a chump...

Fixed it for ya.

[busadayz]

As a general rule of thumb, to be say mid pack, at your average clubmans race meeting, which "trackday" groups would the majority of people be in normally before taking the next step to be in a proper race meeting. I have seen more than a few guys in group 3/medium-fast cut some pretty quick laps on a wide variety of machinery. Could i be led to believe it doesnt really matter that you dont necessarily have to be in groups 1 or 2 to be there or there abouts mid pack at a clubamans race?

[carbonhed]

Racing at Manfeild in Clubmans today, 13's and 14's, FUCK OFF

Yeah but that's older guys who have come up through trackdays and are dabbling with racing... they're quick and they've got quick bikes but they've got close to zero racing chops and no experience of what to do when it goes pear shaped... it's a puzzle.

[DidJit]

... If you are way off the pace in a race class, ...


Mainly running costs, ...

Thank you both for two very good replies. :)

[lukemillar]

Yeah but that's older guys who have come up through trackdays and are dabbling with racing... they're quick and they've got quick bikes but they've got close to zero racing chops and no experience of what to do when it goes pear shaped... it's a puzzle.

They should be moved into their respective class rather than Clubmans. You learn race craft, racing against similar paced competitors. Lapping half the field and finishing way out in front isn't going to teach you squat!

[ClutchITUP]

Its a tough one for me always as I am in the middle of them. I knew I had the confidence to race in F2 on my road bike and would prefer to be out there with F2. And I know thats where I should be but I wasnt fast enough to tack on the back of the pack so...After a few races racing by myself at the back of F2 with no one around and not having anyone to try and follow that was just that crucial second or two faster than me it takes the fun out of racing. Even more so when you see the lap times of the clubbies and there are 10 guys have a ball battling each other all doing your pace mostly old thous and all manner of contraptions, less restrictions on bike specs equals more numbers.

So what Im saying frosty and anyone else is I used to watch the classes on the day.Know your lap times and what your capable of and jump in what ever class that has the most guys running your pace. Hell a couple of days I did both classes and got shit loads of track time on a RACE DAY!!! imagine that!

In writing this post thinking out loud

Why dont we flag all this F1 F2 F3 F4 crap and have a series where grids are made up by qualifing times not by what sort of bike you ride???

I know tards and 125s handle differently than 600s or thous but i think it would make for spectacle and a half!!

I would of loved to dice with the F3 guys on my F2 road bike as my times were about the same as the pointy end of F3 and race with 30 guys in F3 or race with 1 or 2 guys at the back of F2

[Punchy]

What you just described is how the PMCC Class works...definatly the way to go I think.

[ClutchITUP]

What you just described is how the PMCC Class works...definatly the way to go I think.

Oh shit really!!? haha I didnt know that, thats awesome thats the so called summer series at Taupo right??

[Duke5]

Racing at Manfeild in Clubmans today, 13's and 14's, FUCK OFF

Its been a long time since i posted on this site but here goes. i was the person who did a 1.13 yesterday in clubmans which was my personal best by quite a bit. Heres the story. My bike has just undergone extensive engine work and i didnt pick it up until Thursday night after a dyno tune. Bike was throwing out a lot of fault codes and was far from sorted. I took the sensible option and informed VMCC my intentions of running the bike in what i saw as a safer option than going into F1. My race experience is 2 other clubmans events last year, thats 3 races. VMCC had no problem but in saying that if they knew i was going to do a 1.13 things may have been different. I am pushing 50 and only intended doing the saturday which is what i did. I never lapped anyone yesterday in my 2 races so no problems with fly bys there. As it turned out the bike was pretty fucking good and after disconnecting the ignition module the fault codes cleared !!. I intended just circulating and giving the engine some running in time. My competitive nature got the better of me as a guy on a 600 was running pretty hot. Well the rest is history. I see he was back on Sunday and cleaned up. His times were slower than yesterday ( 1.14 yesterday ) as he was way out in front. Wonder what he will do next round.
I may do F1 in the future if i can gather the balls. Then again im not getting any younger and think im stuck in no mans land. Not a big fan of F1 ,F2 etc and reckon it should be grouped on times wether your on a thousand or 600. At the end of the day most racers want to mix it up with people doing similar times. Thats how you improve. Maybe there should be 2 clubmans classes depending on times, i dont know.
I still think i made the safest decision yesterday by running in the clubmans. It is not a competition class so its not like i was trying to burgle anything.
Hope this clears a few things up.
My thoughts are with the Brehaut family. Was unfortunate to witness the whole thing. Bloody tragic and all our thoughts should be with them. cheers

[Punchy]

Its been a long time since i posted on this site but here goes.

I hope you didn't take my 'burglar' jokes too seriously, I was just having a laugh :-)

[Duke5]

I hope you didn't take my 'burglar' jokes too seriously, I was just having a laugh :-)

Shit that was close. Had a couple of my big samoan mates about to knock on yout door:laugh: See ya next time Evan and good luck in F2. Just stop knocking my mates off into the gravel though ..........:msn-wink:

[steveyb]

Don't recall EVER seeing the little bikes entered in Clubbies...400's maybe.

Recently perhaps, but early on in my career (starting in 1988) clubman class was where you started out and that was on your road bike, or if you were well heeled, on the racebike you bought and most of us had 250's or 400's or maybe 600's, but they were very slow compared to a modern 600.

There were riders of all levels on all sorts of bikes, all trying to improve so they could move into a race class.
More recently, I think because of the proliferation of older guys on BIG bikes getting into Clubman, I for one have been councilling riders on small bikes to go straight into the appropriate race class cos most of the riders therein will be the same as them.
So Clubman, certainly at VMCC has morphed into this 'race class' where old guys on BIG FAST bikes can get a buzz and boost their egos in a competitive trackday. Sorry to be blunt, but have a think about it.

If you were serious about racing, you would get yourself a skill level appropriate machine and learn to ride the wheels off that before progressing up to something else. What are you learning by wobbling around the corners on a Superbike and then blasting down the straights, the whole time being scared shitless that you are going to get launched into the air and throw away your $20-80k machine?

Can anyone tell me what would be wrong with those riders going and buying themselves each a $3-4k Honda CBR250 and riding that in Mini-lite, learning race craft and race skills for the change in their pockets with little worry about being launched into the air, unless they have an issue with their egos?

[montsta56]

What he said


Recently perhaps, but early on in my career (starting in 1988) clubman class was where you started out and that was on your road bike, or if you were well heeled, on the racebike you bought and most of us had 250's or 400's or maybe 600's, but they were very slow compared to a modern 600.

There were riders of all levels on all sorts of bikes, all trying to improve so they could move into a race class.
More recently, I think because of the proliferation of older guys on BIG bikes getting into Clubman, I for one have been councilling riders on small bikes to go straight into the appropriate race class cos most of the riders therein will be the same as them.
So Clubman, certainly at VMCC has morphed into this 'race class' where old guys on BIG FAST bikes can get a buzz and boost their egos in a competitive trackday. Sorry to be blunt, but have a think about it.

If you were serious about racing, you would get yourself a skill level appropriate machine and learn to ride the wheels off that before progressing up to something else. What are you learning by wobbling around the corners on a Superbike and then blasting down the straights, the whole time being scared shitless that you are going to get launched into the air and throw away your $20-80k machine?

Can anyone tell me what would be wrong with those riders going and buying themselves each a $3-4k Honda CBR250 and riding that in Mini-lite, learning race craft and race skills for the change in their pockets with little worry about being launched into the air, unless they have an issue with their egos?

[MSTRS]

Recently perhaps, but early on in my career (starting in 1988) clubman class was where you started out and that was on your road bike, or if you were well heeled, on the racebike you bought and most of us had 250's or 400's or maybe 600's, but they were very slow compared to a modern 600.

There were riders of all levels on all sorts of bikes, all trying to improve so they could move into a race class.
More recently, I think because of the proliferation of older guys on BIG bikes getting into Clubman, I for one have been councilling riders on small bikes to go straight into the appropriate race class cos most of the riders therein will be the same as them.
So Clubman, certainly at VMCC has morphed into this 'race class' where old guys on BIG FAST bikes can get a buzz and boost their egos in a competitive trackday. Sorry to be blunt, but have a think about it.

If you were serious about racing, you would get yourself a skill level appropriate machine and learn to ride the wheels off that before progressing up to something else. What are you learning by wobbling around the corners on a Superbike and then blasting down the straights, the whole time being scared shitless that you are going to get launched into the air and throw away your $20-80k machine?

Can anyone tell me what would be wrong with those riders going and buying themselves each a $3-4k Honda CBR250 and riding that in Mini-lite, learning race craft and race skills for the change in their pockets with little worry about being launched into the air, unless they have an issue with their egos?
Different strokes for different folks.
Clubbies HAS morphed somewhat into a defacto big-bike race class, which is why Vic has lowered the laptime threshold, and PMCC has changed the format/name entirely.
I agree too that competitors should learn race craft on smaller bikes in Mini-lites (say) before moving up the cc brackets, but say I want to race on my GSXR750...I can only enter F1. Forget my skills (lack of...) the bike is hopelessly out-classed, doesn't fit in any other class so I am left with Clubmans. If I'm good enough, and want to continue racing, but for points, then I'd need to sort my priorites.
Which is the whole reason why Clubbies as a class, exists.
In saying that, some Clubbies riders are happy right where they are (like Wendy on her big Ducati), are never at the pointy end and never will be, but they do go out and enjoy themselves...what's the harm?

[Clivoris]

Can anyone tell me what would be wrong with those riders going and buying themselves each a $3-4k Honda CBR250 and riding that in Mini-lite, learning race craft and race skills for the change in their pockets with little worry about being launched into the air, unless they have an issue with their egos?

Bah. Real men race Street-stock 150. I've learned much about riding and even more about how to be good humoured after being thrashed by teenagers. Seriously cheap racing.

[slowpoke]

If you were serious about racing, you would get yourself a skill level appropriate machine and learn to ride the wheels off that before progressing up to something else. What are you learning by wobbling around the corners on a Superbike and then blasting down the straights, the whole time being scared shitless that you are going to get launched into the air and throw away your $20-80k machine?

Can anyone tell me what would be wrong with those riders going and buying themselves each a $3-4k Honda CBR250 and riding that in Mini-lite, learning race craft and race skills for the change in their pockets with little worry about being launched into the air, unless they have an issue with their egos?

Because club racing is NOT SERIOUS. My day job is serious. I go racing to have fun, challenge myself and generally forget every other bloody stress in my life for a few laps at a time. I, and people like me, are never going to be Stroudy, I/we can't make up a 30 year head start with a year on a Pro-Lite, then another on a Pro-Twin, another on a 600 and graduate to a Superbike when we are 50years old. We ride the bikes we like, to get the biggest buzz we can, simple as that. Just like a third division club rugby player still trots out at age 45, we go out for an occassional gallop for the sheer love of it. If that's not what club racing is about then I don't know what is.

[MSTRS]

Because club racing is NOT SERIOUS. My day job is serious. I go racing to have fun, challenge myself and generally forget every other bloody stress in my life for a few laps at a time. I, and people like me, are never going to be Stroudy, I/we can't make up a 30 year head start with a year on a Pro-Lite, then another on a Pro-Twin, another on a 600 and graduate to a Superbike when we are 50years old. We ride the bikes we like, to get the biggest buzz we can, simple as that. Just like a third division club rugby player still trots out at age 45, we go out for an occassional gallop for the sheer love of it. If that's not what club racing is about then I don't know what is.

Exactly. And well put.

[CM2005]

I haven't read this whoile thread - i find it difficult to read 20 plus line posts on teh interwebs buuut

i raced my '08 zx6r in clubbies (VMCC) last year, had an awesome time, got on the podium once and have huge battles every meeting- my best lap at manfield was a 1:23.6, so way too slow for F2. I did have spare wheels for wets, but i didnt use tyre warmers until rnd 5 of last year so you can run on a small budget easily.

Decided this year to go F2 and now my PB is 1:18(the cutoff time for Clubmans at manfield) which is right at the back of the F2 grid, not quite getting lapped in a 6 lap race. But definitely happy i only did one season in it.

[c4.]

Just like a third division club rugby player still trots out at age 45, we go out for an occassional gallop for the sheer love of it. If that's not what club racing is about then I don't know what is.[/QUOTE]

+1:ride::ride::ride::ride::ride::msn-wink:

[montsta56]

The shit we do is a little more serious than playing footy. Not many people get Killed playing rugby.

[worm13]

Clubmans of today aka "superbike B" :)

[jellywrestler]

Bah. Real men race Street-stock 150. you're not even doing that now, is it time to hand in your mancard?

[Punchy]

Clubmans of today aka "superbike B" :)

BEARS is just as bad, as far as diverging from original intent.

[CHOPPA]

BEARS is just as bad, as far as diverging from original intent.

Im looking forward to my BEARS races :bleh:

[Clivoris]

you're not even doing that now, is it time to hand in your mancard?

Bahaha. I would hand it in but I seem to have misplaced the handbag it resides in. Nah, I'll be back getting in the way once I have upgraded my MNZ quals and taken the sharp edges off my overdraft.

[wharfy]

Different strokes for different folks.
Clubbies HAS morphed somewhat into a defacto big-bike race class, which is why Vic has lowered the laptime threshold, and PMCC has changed the format/name entirely.
I agree too that competitors should learn race craft on smaller bikes in Mini-lites (say) before moving up the cc brackets, but say I want to race on my GSXR750...I can only enter F1. Forget my skills (lack of...) the bike is hopelessly out-classed, doesn't fit in any other class so I am left with Clubmans. If I'm good enough, and want to continue racing, but for points, then I'd need to sort my priorites.
Which is the whole reason why Clubbies as a class, exists.
In saying that, some Clubbies riders are happy right where they are (like Wendy on her big Ducati), are never at the pointy end and never will be, but they do go out and enjoy themselves...what's the harm?

I agree !!!

[bounce]

Clubbies HAS morphed somewhat into a defacto big-bike race class, which is why Vic has lowered the laptime threshold, and PMCC has changed the format/name entirely.

so if 1:18's is supposeduly the cutoff these days, what did it used to be?

[MSTRS]

so if 1:18's is supposeduly the cutoff these days, what did it used to be?

I have no idea and I think even the 1.18 is obselete. I don't organise these things. But I can tell you that at Rnd1 Clubbies were running 1.15's (I think)

[brentmc]

Hello, Just wanting to re-start the thread on the Clubmans Class, I just got into the Racing scene, I'm on a Pre89 FZR750 with 7meetings now under my belt, my question is with the up and coming National series in Chch, Levels and Teratonga in January is this the class for me, I'm certainly not wanting to compete for championship points and my bike won't fit into any Championship Class, also no my skill level is not up to that level yet either.

From what the thread is saying this would be the class for me, as its open to all size bikes for people that need Track Time, is that correct?

Cheers.

[Kiwi Graham]

Hello, Just wanting to re-start the thread on the Clubmans Class, I just got into the Racing scene, I'm on a Pre89 FZR750 with 7meetings now under my belt, my question is with the up and coming National series in Chch, Levels and Teratonga in January is this the class for me, I'm certainly not wanting to compete for championship points and my bike won't fit into any Championship Class, also no my skill level is not up to that level yet either.

From what the thread is saying this would be the class for me, as its open to all size bikes for people that need Track Time, is that correct?

Cheers.

You will have to check each entry for but I do believe there is no Clubmans class at any of the National rounds this season.

[Billy]

You will have to check each entry for but I do believe there is no Clubmans class at any of the National rounds this season.

Sorry Graham,

Don't mean to undermine you but rounds 1,2,3 are all running clubbies

[Kiwi Graham]

Sorry Graham,

Don't mean to undermine you but rounds 1,2,3 are all running clubbies

No worries mate, for some reason I thought it everyone would be running Development and Posties

[Dave-]

So I haven't read the whole thread (I realise it's a few months old now)

but here's what I do, and think.

I thought it was 10% off the fastest laptime in your "class"

currently I battle agaist 40 and 50 year olds at the sharp end of clubmans here in chch, and we lap a decent portion of the field, but I'm still not 10% of the fastest (I'm only just 15% - so will think on it) I'm finding I'm not learning much more from the class, which would suggest I should step up but....

I set myself a goal, that at 1:40 around ruapuna, I'd jump in to F2. (1:40 is about 10% minus a few)

But the other thing to consider is cost, the faster I go the more it will cost me (is this right?) and while I'm a student I cant afford to go much faster, so in 2 years when I've got the degree, at my rate, I should be in F2?

I think I'll try F2 ar KOR round 4, which will be after most of nationals, and see how I get on.

Any wisdom from the racers?

[300weatherby]

So I haven't read the whole thread (I realise it's a few months old now)

but here's what I do, and think.

I thought it was 10% off the fastest laptime in your "class"

currently I battle agaist 40 and 50 year olds at the sharp end of clubmans here in chch, and we lap a decent portion of the field, but I'm still not 10% of the fastest (I'm only just 15% - so will think on it) I'm finding I'm not learning much more from the class, which would suggest I should step up but....

I set myself a goal, that at 1:40 around ruapuna, I'd jump in to F2. (1:40 is about 10% minus a few)

But the other thing to consider is cost, the faster I go the more it will cost me (is this right?) and while I'm a student I cant afford to go much faster, so in 2 years when I've got the degree, at my rate, I should be in F2?

I think I'll try F2 ar KOR round 4, which will be after most of nationals, and see how I get on.

Any wisdom from the racers?

Hey Dave,

At Motorcycling Canterbury club level, you are fast enough to go 600's now, you are a neat and tidy rider with enough pace not to be obstructive if the faster guys do turn up, anything better than 1:43 or so means you will have a bunch of people to have battles with, and in local club racing, there are not enough laps in a race to be getting lapped at that pace therefore you can ignore the percentage thing, so you will get to have battles that will improve your pace and race craft without looking over your shoulder!



At club level, unless you start crashing, there will not be a significant increase in cost, as long as you maintain the bike properly, untill you are routinely running sub 40. I reckon that if you move to 600 class you might get there reasonably quickly-and that will be the point you will have to prioritise.

At National level, do not run 600's, you will learn NOTHING if you do! run clubbies at those rounds, circulating on your own for 13 laps and then dealing with the front runners battling each other as they look to force past you without giving any room to their competition, is not going to be instuctive or happyness filled. But in Clubbies at National level you get to have battles and FUN!

[neil_cb125t]

My 2c,

Clubmans time cut off should be higher - the 1:18 pace encourages those who don't have the skills to compete in real classes to buy big bikes and fang them. If thats you go to a track day..... there is enough of them, track days that is. There are that many feeder classes that are available that mean guys and girls can still race and develop skills at the right pace.

F1 and F2 are now becoming very pointy classes, even a 1:15 will put you at the tail end of F2 which would make those in clubmans cautious of stepping up...... I get that.

It boils down to the main problem, people are buying the wrong bike to race, look at the classes, then decide which bike suits your riding ability and budget. At 6 foot and 90kg I started on 150s.... nic cole started on 125gp bikes...... If you actually got into a lower hp you will learn more and the money you could put into the machine and training yourself ( at CSS or moto-academy or Proride or all the other good rider tuition places of couse) would have you doing 17's and lower on a pro twin, F3 machine, or 30's and lower on a ex250.

If you have some power bend and still don't like corners then get into Post Classic Racing, plenty of HP boys in there, better crowd of punters to race against who actually have some skill that you can learn off.

Tell you what never thought you could brake at the 70m mark going into higgans... till i did it on a RG150.....in the rain.

[kiwi cowboy]

circulating on your own for 13 laps and then dealing with the front runners battling each other as they look to force past you without giving any room to their competition, is not going to be instuctive or happyness filled. But in Clubbies at National level you get to have battles and FUN![/QUOTE]

Apart from the number of laps this is exactly what happened to the slower guys at the 1st round of king of ruapuna with the fast guys doing times that would have had them in mid to back of feild of there classes lapping inside and outside the slower guys cutting them off giving them no room at all and frankly was not enjoyable at all.

If id known the pre89,s were in the same class as clubmans i wouldnt have gone and havent done the following rounds as i think it's too dangerous with the speed differential and the way some of these guys act on the track.

If i enter any club meets now i check if the 89's are on there own and if not i would entre f3 in preference to clubmans simply because these guys have raced more and when lapping have the experiance to do so safely.

[sharp2183]

Didn't want to start a new thread for nothing, but what is the deal with MNZ race numbers with a senior club licence. I just had mine delivered in time for this weekend but there was no allocated number given.

What does this mean for me?

[Kiwi Graham]

Didn't want to start a new thread for nothing, but what is the deal with MNZ race numbers with a senior club licence. I just had mine delivered in time for this weekend but there was no allocated number given.

What does this mean for me?

My understanding is:
Since the license changes, ie Championship V's Club MNZ allocate a number for championship license holders but not for Club licenses.

The best person to contact would be the club race secretary to ask what numbers are available or bring a selection of numbers with you on race day and get one allocated then.

[tail_end_charlie]

My 2c,

Clubmans time cut off should be higher - the 1:18 pace encourages those who don't have the skills to compete in real classes to buy big bikes and fang them. If thats you go to a track day..... there is enough of them, track days that is. There are that many feeder classes that are available that mean guys and girls can still race and develop skills at the right pace.

F1 and F2 are now becoming very pointy classes, even a 1:15 will put you at the tail end of F2 which would make those in clubmans cautious of stepping up...... I get that.

It boils down to the main problem, people are buying the wrong bike to race, look at the classes, then decide which bike suits your riding ability and budget. At 6 foot and 90kg I started on 150s.... nic cole started on 125gp bikes...... If you actually got into a lower hp you will learn more and the money you could put into the machine and training yourself ( at CSS or moto-academy or Proride or all the other good rider tuition places of couse) would have you doing 17's and lower on a pro twin, F3 machine, or 30's and lower on a ex250.

If you have some power bend and still don't like corners then get into Post Classic Racing, plenty of HP boys in there, better crowd of punters to race against who actually have some skill that you can learn off.

Tell you what never thought you could brake at the 70m mark going into higgans... till i did it on a RG150.....in the rain.


Right, that was more or less my thinking when I went out and bought my track (soon to be race) bike. No way in hell I wanted to try and jump on my Daytona and compete in F2 any time soon. Haven't really heard a lot of good things about going into clubman's either. So I went out and bought a '89 ZXR400 with the plan to go for Pre '89 and F3. That would give me the most track time per meeting to get up to speed (this rider needs more training then the bike fiddling with). What I don't want to do is going out there and get in peoples way for the first couple of races. I'm hoping that I should be able to at least have some reasonable times in the Pre '89, though I might wait a bit before taking a crack at the F3. I would be looking at doing rounds with PMCC and VMCC at Taupo and AMCC at HD later this summer/next years winter series.

So my question would be.......going Pre '89 to start with? Or slot into the clubmans for a couple of rounds?

[Fast Eddie]

So my question would be.......going Pre '89 to start with? Or slot into the clubmans for a couple of rounds?

its a no brainer, sidecar.

great people, great fun.. what else do you want?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6mYl3dIgtDM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[tail_end_charlie]

its a no brainer, sidecar.

great people, great fun.. what else do you want?


Ha ha, yeah, they are good fun. Went out with Gordy twice on the classic BMW (he didn't break when I was swinging for him, maybe its actually Kickah whose hard on shit?) and enjoyed it. But I would have to say, after following the Sidecar thread for a while now, I wouldn't get into that group untill I had found a chastity belt that I could wear backwards. That way I don't end up --> :buggerd:

[Fast Eddie]

... after following the Sidecar thread for a while now, I wouldn't get into that group untill I had found a chastity belt that I could wear backwards. That way I don't end up --> :buggerd:

hahahahah! good call - part of the fun after racing though :D

[Kiwi Graham]

So my question would be.......going Pre '89 to start with? Or slot into the clubmans for a couple of rounds?

Clubmans;

Clubmans is a class for racers new to the sport to develop their race craft before joining the appropriate class for their machine.

At AMCC we insist all new racers start in Clubmans and wear a Hi-Viz vest for a minimum of ten 'races'. If during this period it is deemed by the Clerk of the Course in consultation with the Steward that the rider is attaining lap times no longer agreed for CLubmans (1:15 at HD) and has a satisfactory level of race craft he will be moved to the appropriate class. If the rider has not attained 10 races by this time they will still have to wear the HI-Viz until they have done so.

[desmoto]

I did the first amcc clubmans round on a 675.It was my first time racing and apart from a couple of slow guys everyone else was pretty much at the same pace.I would have thought pre89 would be alot more competitive.My 2c to Charlie would be to give clubmans a crack.

[neil_cb125t]

Right, that was more or less my thinking when I went out and bought my track (soon to be race) bike. No way in hell I wanted to try and jump on my Daytona and compete in F2 any time soon. Haven't really heard a lot of good things about going into clubman's either. So I went out and bought a '89 ZXR400 with the plan to go for Pre '89 and F3. That would give me the most track time per meeting to get up to speed (this rider needs more training then the bike fiddling with). What I don't want to do is going out there and get in peoples way for the first couple of races. I'm hoping that I should be able to at least have some reasonable times in the Pre '89, though I might wait a bit before taking a crack at the F3. I would be looking at doing rounds with PMCC and VMCC at Taupo and AMCC at HD later this summer/next years winter series.

So my question would be.......going Pre '89 to start with? Or slot into the clubmans for a couple of rounds?

ZXR400 such a good choice......if you know who I am you'll know why im so supportive. Pre 89 on your bike is a great little class, you'll also have a few bikes the same as yours, 400's so you'll get to ride with sim bikes. There will be some big hot 1100cc bikes but they actually can ride (well most of them) so should stay out of your way. you could enter in Posties and F3, qualify and see how you go compared to other riders, if the class is hot then maybe clubmans, but think PC will be where you'll want to be.

I did exactly what you did, same bike.... If you need a hand with anything on the bike just ask, I have done it all to them, FCRs, 444kits, blow em up, fixed em, blown em up again.... I have a few spare bits for them too.

[rapid van cleef]

Does each club(amcc/ vic/ pmcc) have their own clubmans class and therefore annual membership fees etc?

As far as I could tell amcc only runs a handful of clubmans races each year....5 rounds. is that correct?

Id also like to have a crack at clubmans. Anyone know a reasonable lap time for taupo clubmans? I pressume it would be track 1?

thanks

[sharky]

Hey Adam, have you adjusted the preload yet...:msn-wink:

I wouldn't bother with Clubmans on a 400. The speed difference between your bike and a modern superbike is a problem. More likely to find someone of similar speed in the other classes.

I reckon, for a few bucks extra you might as well enter both F3 and Posties and see how you go on the day. It will give you 2 practices and if you are finding things a bit busy you don't have to enter all the F3 races. The posties guys are a bit more 'gentlemenly' and I doubt you will have any problem there. You will notice F3 is a bit more aggressive but once you round turn 1 you will be able to settle into your own pace.

If you want to aim for the Taupo round of PMCC in Feb to make your debut you can pit with me and I'll show you the ropes - also there is a Practice day on the Saturday so you can get your eye in.

Scott

[kiwi cowboy]

Hey Adam, have you adjusted the preload yet...:msn-wink:

I wouldn't bother with Clubmans on a 400. The speed difference between your bike and a modern superbike is a problem. More likely to find someone of similar speed in the other classes.

I reckon, for a few bucks extra you might as well enter both F3 and Posties and see how you go on the day. It will give you 2 practices and if you are finding things a bit busy you don't have to enter all the F3 races. The posties guys are a bit more 'gentlemenly' and I doubt you will have any problem there. You will notice F3 is a bit more aggressive but once you round turn 1 you will be able to settle into your own pace.

If you want to aim for the Taupo round of PMCC in Feb to make your debut you can pit with me and I'll show you the ropes - also there is a Practice day on the Saturday so you can get your eye in.

Scott

Very good advice there and thats what i plan now posties or f3 and leave clubmans alone.

The only problem is down here at some meets they put posties in with clubmans if not enough numbers.

[tail_end_charlie]

Hey Adam, have you adjusted the preload yet...:msn-wink:

Ha ha, I had enough trouble trying to get myself organized and down to Taupo (pro-rider trackday) there Sunday and forgot to mess with the suspension. :facepalm: But to be honest it wasn't too bad, felt pretty comfortable on the bike and had fair speed around track 2. Mostly I was just trying out the bike, give it a bit of a shakedown run type thing. The suspension does need some fiddling with, but I have to sort out an overheating problem first, then the brakes, and maybe a couple of other things to set it up how I want it.


I wouldn't bother with Clubmans on a 400. The speed difference between your bike and a modern superbike is a problem. More likely to find someone of similar speed in the other classes.

Yeah, thats what I kinda thought too.


I reckon, for a few bucks extra you might as well enter both F3 and Posties and see how you go on the day. It will give you 2 practices and if you are finding things a bit busy you don't have to enter all the F3 races. The posties guys are a bit more 'gentlemenly' and I doubt you will have any problem there. You will notice F3 is a bit more aggressive but once you round turn 1 you will be able to settle into your own pace.

Good to know


If you want to aim for the Taupo round of PMCC in Feb to make your debut you can pit with me and I'll show you the ropes - also there is a Practice day on the Saturday so you can get your eye in.

That would be sweet. It'll give me the chance to get a couple more trackdays on it before hand and try and get some stuff sorted out. Plus I gotta get myself a club license. As of now I'll plan for that to be my first race. :2thumbsup

[Kiwi Graham]

Guys,

There is a big difference between racing and track days !

To be expected to run around with the quicker track day guys and then expect to be safe and competent in a race is a bloody big ask.

In a race you will be in a lot closer proximity to each other, on occasion touching each other, diving up the inside/outside, out breaking, defending lines...........the list goes on.

These skills (track/race craft) have to learnt and Clubmans class (run and supervised appropriately) is where this should begin, not chucked head long into the teeth of hardened racers.

Until recently Clubmans has been a little loose but this season things have changed and it is a true class to learn in (I'm talking AMCC here).

Put simply you could be a hazard racing for the first time in a full blown class, the responsible thing to do is learn the skills first then progress.

The very start of a race would be a whole new experience for a track day junkie (how many track days have grided starts? non!) How many have experienced being 'lent on' into the first turn? been drafted and out-braked just inches apart.

Clubmans is the class all new racers should progress through and learn in, That's what the class is there for.

I'm not trying to put anyone off, I'm one of the biggest advocates for Clubmans but we aint playing tiddlywinks here, big speeds with big consequences.

[tail_end_charlie]

Guys,

There is a big difference between racing and track days !

To be expected to run around with the quicker track day guys and then expect to be safe and competent in a race is a bloody big ask.

In a race you will be in a lot closer proximity to each other, on occasion touching each other, diving up the inside/outside, out breaking, defending lines...........the list goes on.

These skills (track/race craft) have to learnt and Clubmans class (run and supervised appropriately) is where this should begin, not chucked head long into the teeth of hardened racers.

Until recently Clubmans has been a little loose but this season things have changed and it is a true class to learn in (I'm talking AMCC here).

Put simply you could be a hazard racing for the first time in a full blown class, the responsible thing to do is learn the skills first then progress.

The very start of a race would be a whole new experience for a track day junkie (how many track days have grided starts? non!) How many have experienced being 'lent on' into the first turn? been drafted and out-braked just inches apart.

Clubmans is the class all new racers should progress through and learn in, That's what the class is there for.

I'm not trying to put anyone off, I'm one of the biggest advocates for Clubmans but we aint playing tiddlywinks here, big speeds with big consequences.


I understand what you are saying here, and I agree with you. I've done around 8 trackdays so far, and I know I have gotten a lot more confident, as well as improved my skill set at knowing what I can and can't do on the bike. But I am also very much aware that I have a long way to go in knowing what the bike is capable of. (A very long way to be honest) I do get a bit nervous coming into a corner at a trackday and suddenly realizing that the rider in front is going a lot slower than me, trying to figure out a new line to avoid a conflagration et'al. I know that I have a lot to learn about race craft, and thats why I'm asking the question.

My biggest concern is the large differential in speed. I'm on a 400 (60 hp), while most guys running in Clubmans are on 600 (110 hp) and some are even running 1000s (170 hp). I sure I could go on telling you what you already know better than I about the bike differences, but I'm not going to waste your time.

The way I see it is that if I were to run in PC Pre '89 I would be running with more bikes equivalent to my own. Which means that the skill of the rider is the only thing giving an advantage (there will be plenty of that though). So my thought is that letting the race coordinator know I'm a newbie, wearing hi-viz, and starting from the back of the grid (due to a lack of start experience) in the Pre '89 might be the safest.

I understand that AMCC is maybe paying a little more attention to the Clubmans bracket to make sure people are learning rather than being scared off, and I would be fine with running Clubman's if I went to a AMCC meet, as per your guidelines. Just trying to take in the advice I see here on KB.............because what you read on KB can be taken as second only to the Gospel. (oh wait :facepalm:)

[rapid van cleef]

To be even remotely competitive in clubmans class, would the expectation be that track day riders would be running at the front of say, group 3 at ART days? I'm really keen to give this racing lark a go. However, Id rather build skills 'racecraft' gradually.

[Dave-]

To be even remotely competitive in clubmans class, would the expectation be that track day riders would be running at the front of say, group 3 at ART days? I'm really keen to give this racing lark a go. However, Id rather build skills 'racecraft' gradually.

I'd say your position at track days bares very little resemblance to your competitiveness in clubmans.

I cut like 5 seconds a lap off my best in my first meeting.

My mate did the exact same thing.

I think sharp2183 did something similar too, hopefully he'll see this.

all 3 of us track day hacks.

I probably shouldn't have told you that cause now you'll place yourself 5s higher, to be honest I think you should place yourself in clubmans where you place a track day, this is the conservative approach, if you go faster then well done.

[sharp2183]

I'd say your position at track days bares very little resemblance to your competitiveness in clubmans.

I cut like 5 seconds a lap off my best in my first meeting.

My mate did the exact same thing.

I think sharp2183 did something similar too, hopefully he'll see this.

all 3 of us track day hacks.

I probably shouldn't have told you that cause now you'll place yourself 5s higher, to be honest I think you should place yourself in clubmans where you place a track day, this is the conservative approach, if you go faster then well done.

Not 100% sure about 5 seconds off my track day times, but at least a few seconds. I agree that racing is very different from track days. I had done plenty of track days so adjusting wasn't hard. The close proximity to other riders was the biggest change but also one of the most exciting bits.

I think people need to not put racing on a pedestal (watch 40 year old virgin if you don't get that reference). It's relaxed and fun, and at the end of the day you don't have to ride at 105% if it worrys you.

But yeah, lapping fast at a track day is not the same as doing well in a race.

[ellipsis]

...it's quite cool that discussion about skills and reality are taking place...very shortly graded licences are going to be a reality...racing and being quite proficient at guiding a bike skilfully on a track are worlds apart...this should not fuck with anyone's ego if they are wanting to be involved in the sport and they want to learn...racing is always going to be on the edge...we would like to see those at that edge, sharp enough...there will always be classes to learn the skills and starting in the relevant class is essential in that learning curve...anybodies over hyped sense of their experience can be the difference between life and the alternatives, out there...join a club and listen...

[sharky]

Hey Graham,

As far as I am aware PMCC didn't even run a Clubmans class last year (I don't know if they plan to this season??), so that is not even an option there. They just put the newbies in a class relevant to their lap times.

The initiatives that AMCC have taken this season with the hi-vis etc is clearly a step in the right direction.




Guys,

There is a big difference between racing and track days !

To be expected to run around with the quicker track day guys and then expect to be safe and competent in a race is a bloody big ask.

In a race you will be in a lot closer proximity to each other, on occasion touching each other, diving up the inside/outside, out breaking, defending lines...........the list goes on.

These skills (track/race craft) have to learnt and Clubmans class (run and supervised appropriately) is where this should begin, not chucked head long into the teeth of hardened racers.

Until recently Clubmans has been a little loose but this season things have changed and it is a true class to learn in (I'm talking AMCC here).

Put simply you could be a hazard racing for the first time in a full blown class, the responsible thing to do is learn the skills first then progress.

The very start of a race would be a whole new experience for a track day junkie (how many track days have grided starts? non!) How many have experienced being 'lent on' into the first turn? been drafted and out-braked just inches apart.

Clubmans is the class all new racers should progress through and learn in, That's what the class is there for.

I'm not trying to put anyone off, I'm one of the biggest advocates for Clubmans but we aint playing tiddlywinks here, big speeds with big consequences.

[Billy]

Hey Graham,

As far as I am aware PMCC didn't even run a Clubmans class last year (I don't know if they plan to this season??), so that is not even an option there. They just put the newbies in a class relevant to their lap times.

The initiatives that AMCC have taken this season with the hi-vis etc is clearly a step in the right direction.

That is correct on both counts,The AMCC have made good strides under Grahams(wish he'd learn to spell his name correctly) watch,As for the PMCC series,They will either run a proper clubmans class next year,Or not run at all,The set up they ran last year was a disaster waiting to happen.

[tail_end_charlie]

That is correct on both counts,The AMCC have made good strides under Grahams(wish he'd learn to spell his name correctly) watch,As for the PMCC series,They will either run a proper clubmans class next year,Or not run at all,The set up they ran last year was a disaster waiting to happen.

So Billy, along these lines, would a new racer be required to run in Clubmans until seen fit by the stewards to join into thier respective bike class? Is there an initiative at MNZ to push for this to happen with all the clubs? Seems like you can either start out in buckets/streetstock or in clubmans, depending on what type of bike you have.

I'm not trying to cause waves or anything, just want to get into it in the best possible way, for me and for everyone else out there.

[Billy]

So Billy, along these lines, would a new racer be required to run in Clubmans until seen fit by the stewards to join into thier respective bike class? Is there an initiative at MNZ to push for this to happen with all the clubs? Seems like you can either start out in buckets/streetstock or in clubmans, depending on what type of bike you have.

I'm not trying to cause waves or anything, just want to get into it in the best possible way, for me and for everyone else out there.

In your particular case,I assume you have bought Warrens ZXR,You will be okay to start off in Post classic or Formula 3 where the speed differentials aren't as great as they would be if you went out in Clubmans where there are 1000s and 600s,We are working on an entry level system,But the NZSBK series is taking up all my time at the moment and I have left it in the hands of Karel Pavich and Dan Ornsby to work their way through.

[tail_end_charlie]

In your particular case,I assume you have bought Warrens ZXR,You will be okay to start off in Post classic or Formula 3 where the speed differentials aren't as great as they would be if you went out in Clubmans where there are 1000s and 600s,We are working on an entry level system,But the NZSBK series is taking up all my time at the moment and I have left it in the hands of Karel Pavich and Dan Ornsby to work their way through.

Yep, thats the bike I bought. Thanks for the advice. We'll see how I go.

[SILVER SUZI]

Go clubbies! I'm racing in the AMCC clubmans series, and it's awesome. There is a huge variation of bikes, speeds and skills. Perfect place to get accustomed to racing.
I'm one of those middle aged guys just getting into racing and starting out on an R6. If there was no clubmans I'd be in F2, which runs with formula Auckland(F1). That would put me on the track with the likes of Stroud, Clee and Frost on their 1000cc super bikes. I don't know but I'm guessing that may not be as enjoyable for me just starting out.

[cheesemethod]

Had my first ever experience with racing at Round 3. It happens to be the most fun thing I've ever done. Firstly, big thanks to the other riders. Despite acting as a mobile chicane all day, you guys made clean overtakes and I never felt intimidated by the fast guys shooting past. The starts were hugely exciting, and props to the dude who stalled on the grid for actually sticking his hand up and making it obvious there was an issue. The heat was a bit of an issue all day, and with the track falling apart on turn 4 I was probably loosing seconds every lap - had no confidence after seeing several incidents right in front of me at T4. I got absolutely smoked by everyone in the field, but still had an absolute blast. Hopefully for the next round I'll be a lot more relaxed and managed to pick up the pace.

[rapid van cleef]

Want to start in clubmans later this year, but which bike?

I think it will probably be better for me to sell on my 1000cc bike and go for a 600, maybe a 675. Then, 'IF' I ever get near the cut off laptime, I would not be mixing it up with the F1 superbikes as I would imagine that would not be a lot of fun......being a chicane that is.

What do you guys reccomend? I dont really want to spend a heap of cash on my 1000 cc bike if I get near the approproate lap times to then be getting totally wasted by the really fast guys, or even everyone! I was also thinking that if I go for a 675 then that opens up the BEARS class aswell.

GSXR600 seems to be a pretty popular bike for getting parts etc?

Or, do I spend some $$$$ on my 1000 anyway and see what happens?........

What do you guys reckon?.........answers maybe from current or recent Clubmans class participants

I just want to be able to look back and say, at least I gave it a go......life is for living afterall

Thanks

[busadayz]

Probably not the response you were looking for, but i hope to do the AMCC round 5 at Hampton in April in clubmans.
Havnt done any racing, and will be on a motard, so there will be a large difference in speeds with some of the other bikes.
Having said that i understand the clubmans class at AMCC is big on making sure everyone has the right approach to it.
So i am not too worried about the speed difference and need to focus on what i need to do, i think everyone starts out there
and they can then assess how you go from there. I am definately not going to be breaking any lap records, but if you dont start on something, you wont start at all and my tard is what ive got.

[desmoto]

Want to start in clubmans later this year, but which bike?

I think it will probably be better for me to sell on my 1000cc bike and go for a 600, maybe a 675. Then, 'IF' I ever get near the cut off laptime, I would not be mixing it up with the F1 superbikes as I would imagine that would not be a lot of fun......being a chicane that is.

What do you guys reccomend? I dont really want to spend a heap of cash on my 1000 cc bike if I get near the approproate lap times to then be getting totally wasted by the really fast guys, or even everyone! I was also thinking that if I go for a 675 then that opens up the BEARS class aswell.

GSXR600 seems to be a pretty popular bike for getting parts etc?

Or, do I spend some $$$$ on my 1000 anyway and see what happens?........

What do you guys reckon?.........answers maybe from current or recent Clubmans class participants

I just want to be able to look back and say, at least I gave it a go......life is for living afterall

Thanks

Do it mate, i,ve done all the clubmans rounds of the amcc series and loved it. I,ve got a 675 but i reckon R6s are the pick of the bunch. They seem to have a bit more grunt.

[sharp2183]

Do it mate, i,ve done all the clubmans rounds of the amcc series and loved it. I,ve got a 675 but i reckon R6s are the pick of the bunch. They seem to have a bit more grunt.

Just the ones you run into maybe des? The R6's are easy to improve though, and not too expensive to start with.

In all seriousness though, AMCC should be commended for their clubmans class. The racing is awesome and close, and well policed to make sure it is safe etc. I've done clubmans rounds for Canterbury, PMCC and AMCC and the days at Hampton Downs have been by far the best!

[desmoto]

[QUOTE=sharp2183;1130514360]Just the ones you run into maybe des?



When they stay on the track mate:msn-wink:

[steveyb]

Want to start in clubmans later this year, but which bike?

I think it will probably be better for me to sell on my 1000cc bike and go for a 600, maybe a 675. Then, 'IF' I ever get near the cut off laptime, I would not be mixing it up with the F1 superbikes as I would imagine that would not be a lot of fun......being a chicane that is.

What do you guys reccomend? I dont really want to spend a heap of cash on my 1000 cc bike if I get near the approproate lap times to then be getting totally wasted by the really fast guys, or even everyone! I was also thinking that if I go for a 675 then that opens up the BEARS class aswell.

GSXR600 seems to be a pretty popular bike for getting parts etc?

Or, do I spend some $$$$ on my 1000 anyway and see what happens?........

What do you guys reckon?.........answers maybe from current or recent Clubmans class participants

I just want to be able to look back and say, at least I gave it a go......life is for living afterall

Thanks


Advice: Don't sell your 1000 unless you need to. Buy instead a good, low cost Ninja 250 and head out in the 250 Production class.
Learn the good lessons on a bike that will have to try pretty hard to hurt you, will not cost you an arm and a leg to run (one pair of tyres, chain, brakes for a whole season) and race with riders who are there to race while learning and are all going about the same speed (in a straight line that is, not necessarily around the corners), and be in an NZ Championship class so that you can go racing at higher level straight away if you so desire.
At the end of the day there will be very little difference to you on the track between a 1000 and a 600/675 and the both require good tyres, good suspension set up and significant skill and experience to be fast and SAFE.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour and get into 250 Production to start out. It is great fun.

[budda]

Advice: Don't sell your 1000 unless you need to. Buy instead a good, low cost Ninja 250 and head out in the 250 Production class.
Learn the good lessons on a bike that will have to try pretty hard to hurt you, will not cost you an arm and a leg to run (one pair of tyres, chain, brakes for a whole season) and race with riders who are there to race while learning and are all going about the same speed (in a straight line that is, not necessarily around the corners), and be in an NZ Championship class so that you can go racing at higher level straight away if you so desire.
At the end of the day there will be very little difference to you on the track between a 1000 and a 600/675 and the both require good tyres, good suspension set up and significant skill and experience to be fast and SAFE.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour and get into 250 Production to start out. It is great fun.

RIGHT YOU BASTARD - Who are you, and how did you hack into Steves login info ........ choking now, caught myself agreeing with whoever you are !!!!!!!!!!!

[Billy]

Advice: Don't sell your 1000 unless you need to. Buy instead a good, low cost Ninja 250 and head out in the 250 Production class.
Learn the good lessons on a bike that will have to try pretty hard to hurt you, will not cost you an arm and a leg to run (one pair of tyres, chain, brakes for a whole season) and race with riders who are there to race while learning and are all going about the same speed (in a straight line that is, not necessarily around the corners), and be in an NZ Championship class so that you can go racing at higher level straight away if you so desire.
At the end of the day there will be very little difference to you on the track between a 1000 and a 600/675 and the both require good tyres, good suspension set up and significant skill and experience to be fast and SAFE.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour and get into 250 Production to start out. It is great fun.

Good sound advice,In fact,I have a team working on a graded licence system,That runs along similar lines to that,Once they have finished with it I will notify those that need to know of our intentions and get the required feedback to initiate it,NO MORE just fronting up for your first season on a 600 or 1000 until you have met our requirements.

[300weatherby]

Good sound advice,In fact,I have a team working on a graded licence system,That runs along similar lines to that,Once they have finished with it I will notify those that need to know of our intentions and get the required feedback to initiate it,NO MORE just fronting up for your first season on a 600 or 1000 until you have met our requirements.

Worth remembering that most people start out on their roadbike and it gradually morphs into a racebike, you WANT new racers, don't penalise them financially to get started, or they just won't come.

Perhaps MNZ could use the money they vacume out of the members pockets to set up a fleet of 250 rental/lease type bikes available to aspiring Clubbie riders once you have your rules sorted. Spend the money at the bottom trying to grow our sport rather than keeping the administration well travelled and watered.

To have a pyramid of size, one must first have a large base, and I don't mean Tuckermans swollen adversarial head. I know he is your mate and I don't know what you see in him, but keeping him away from the public and muzzle well attatched would be helpfull!- to hear members of the public going "who the fk is that guy!?" kinda helps to create the wrong perception.........

Hope that wasn't too obtuse.........


Whatever rules you do come up with, assuming they become applicable accross the country, you will in effect, create a 250 proddy "B" class, therefore local and national rankings become applicable surely?

Means the ends of Clubbies at the Nats Sth Island rounds, some will think that is great, but misses the point that it should not be about only the 2% at the front of the grid, I reckon it has to be easy, not hard to get started, make it hard and in another 10 yrs there will be f/all on the grid anywhere, a point missed by the Clubbies haters

[quickbuck]

I reckon it has to be easy, not hard to get started,.....
It is easy.....
You keep your road bike in the shed, go buy a Ninja/ Hyosung, CBR250( New One), or Scorpio if you like.
Get a rule book, prepare bike, buy licence and anything else you are missing.... and go racing.
Listen to all the good advice given.....

I did, and still have my 21 year old CBR600 to go for little rides on the road if I want to.
It initially seemed like it was a great idea to turn my road bike into a race bike, but 2 years later, I am so glad I didn't.

I have learnt so much more on the 250 Production bike than i ever would have mucking around on my CBR....

Oh, and it is not a lot of money either... The Annual spares budget is about the same as a good road tyre for my 600.. and that would last a few meetings at the most!!!

[Billy]

Worth remembering that most people start out on their roadbike and it gradually morphs into a racebike, you WANT new racers, don't penalise them financially to get started, or they just won't come.

Perhaps MNZ could use the money they vacume out of the members pockets to set up a fleet of 250 rental/lease type bikes available to aspiring Clubbie riders once you have your rules sorted. Spend the money at the bottom trying to grow our sport rather than keeping the administration well travelled and watered.

To have a pyramid of size, one must first have a large base, and I don't mean Tuckermans swollen adversarial head. I know he is your mate and I don't know what you see in him, but keeping him away from the public and muzzle well attatched would be helpfull!- to hear members of the public going "who the fk is that guy!?" kinda helps to create the wrong perception.........

Hope that wasn't too obtuse.........


Whatever rules you do come up with, assuming they become applicable accross the country, you will in effect, create a 250 proddy "B" class, therefore local and national rankings become applicable surely?

Means the ends of Clubbies at the Nats Sth Island rounds, some will think that is great, but misses the point that it should not be about only the 2% at the front of the grid, I reckon it has to be easy, not hard to get started, make it hard and in another 10 yrs there will be f/all on the grid anywhere, a point missed by the Clubbies haters

I'd offer a reasoned response to that,BUT it's so full of excrement I'd need the rest of the week.

One thing I will say though is,Fortunately there were others out there who recognised the problem for what it is and offered to help improve safety,Good on them I say

[steveyb]

RIGHT YOU BASTARD - Who are you, and how did you hack into Steves login info ........ choking now, caught myself agreeing with whoever you are !!!!!!!!!!!

:bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::m sn-wink:

You know I would otherwise say Get a 125 (or buy an IMD250 GPMono bike), but at the end of the day they are for a certain sub-segment of the rider market.
I am fully committed to beginner racers spending time in a proper learner class like 250 Production.
The bikes are cheap and once a guy gets the hell over himself for being in the kids/poofs/novices/whatevers class and actually applies him/herself to learning about racing I know they will have more fun than they ever thought possible.
They can keep their Superduperhyperbikes for road rides and killing themselves out there, not on the track, please.
I fully believe that for most older riders that go clubman racing on their big bikes they are doing little more than glorified trackdays with a race start.

I was one of them when I started out. I started in a few club meetings on my GPZ600 but quickly realised that that was a dead end for someone inexperienced like me, so I bought a 250 Production racebike and learned from there in a much safer way. And I can fully guarantee, that say for arguements sake, we are able to keep boosting the 250 Production numbers back to a decent level, that buzzing around in a pack of 30 or more racebikes that are all the same (ahem), is a fuck load more fun than worrying about killing yourself or your $30k Superduperbike.

Over and out.

[SWERVE]

Far too much sense being spoken for KB. But people listen there is an ex road race commisioner and life long racer/supprter from a very good pedigree racing family (shit make you sound too good) An experienced rider of many years and many bikes. A scholarship/ development team operatopr (who has no reason to push 250s over his own bikes) The current raos race commisioner / racer / and also life long stalwart of the sport................. all saying the same thing............... for once people just LISTEN to people who KNOW what they are talking about.

[jellywrestler]

we are able to keep boosting the 250 Production numbers back to a decent level, that buzzing around in a pack of 30 or more racebikes that are all the same (ahem), is a fuck load more fun than worrying about killing yourself or your $30k Superduperbike.

Over and out.
too right, in the last two seasons the closest finishes have been in the 250 class and some of the best race long dicing too

[quickbuck]

:bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::m sn-wink:

You know I would otherwise say Get a 125 (or buy an IMD250 GPMono bike), but at the end of the day they are for a certain sub-segment of the rider market.
I am fully committed to beginner racers spending time in a proper learner class like 250 Production.
The bikes are cheap and once a guy gets the hell over himself for being in the kids/poofs/novices/whatevers class and actually applies him/herself to learning about racing I know they will have more fun than they ever thought possible.
They can keep their Superduperhyperbikes for road rides and killing themselves out there, not on the track, please.
I fully believe that for most older riders that go clubman racing on their big bikes they are doing little more than glorified trackdays with a race start.

I was one of them when I started out. I started in a few club meetings on my GPZ600 but quickly realised that that was a dead end for someone inexperienced like me, so I bought a 250 Production racebike and learned from there in a much safer way. And I can fully guarantee, that say for arguements sake, we are able to keep boosting the 250 Production numbers back to a decent level, that buzzing around in a pack of 30 or more racebikes that are all the same (ahem), is a fuck load more fun than worrying about killing yourself or your $30k Superduperbike.

Over and out.
Just to add to that....
When you put your road going 600 or 1000 on the track you need to go faster than you think!

Heck even the 250's are hitting 160k.
Now, I realise you can do that in 1st gear on your GSXR1000, but can you brake at the 50 metre mark at that speed at turn one at Manfeild and make the courner?
If the answer to that is NO, then get a 250 Production bike and learn how....

[Grubber]

I've been running in Clubmans all season with AMCC and just love it.
I do it on a Daytona 675 that i picked up for a song last year. Spent around a grand to get it up to scratch and haven't spent anything since, other than tyres and fuel.
I'm not running near the front, as the 600's have a little more oomph than mine, but i do give some of them a run for their money.
I do find that some of the participants could easily be racing a better class but they are still out there doing it which counts for more than anything.
Beats sitting in front of the tele for sure.
I've learnt that riding it like you stole it gets the times down pretty good. In the past i was a bit of an observer at race pace but then i learnt to basically cane it all the time and it made quite a difference. Think the call it race craft hehe.