teenage road deaths

[yungatart]

Just saw on the news tonight that four teenagers lost their lives in a high speed crash in HB this am. As a parent of a teenager and someone who works at a High School I would hate to have to deal with losing anyone I cared about in this way. It is blatantly obvious that the licensing restriction system and the anti speed campaign does not work for our young people- who consider themselves 10 foot tall and bullet proof -all evidence to the contrary! Perhaps we need to increase the age at which our young people can get behind the wheel of these souped up machines, as in Europe or maybe we need to have a power to weight ratio restriction. I don't think it was so much of an issue back in the seventies as teenagers drove ancient sluggish old bangers as in Humber 80's, Ford defects etc - certainly not capable of the speeds that todays kids can attain in their Legacys, WRX's, Evo's etc funded by nearsighted parents in a lot of cases.
I find the whole thing really, really sad and wonder what can be done about it.

[myvice]

Power to weight restrictions would be the best idea.
They should re-do the bike ones when they’re at it!
I think driver Ed in high school, like in the States is a bloody good idea aswell!
Fat chance of my little one (now 13) getting a lowered and loudnd crap mobile for his first car!
Moot point, as he wants a bike anyway...

[yungatart]

Thing is tho as regards Driver Ed in High School- if they pay as much attention to that as they do to other stuff ( eg Maths) it would be a total waste of time unless they were being taught to do wheelies,burnouts etc. We have sex ed at school- still have a shockingly high teenage pregnancy rate and STI's -ditto for drug and alcohol education.
Any more ideas?

[crashe]

NZ Police CommCens Alert 23:00 29-07-2005 Eastern

Location of incident: WINDSOR AVENUE - HASTINGS

Incident Type: FATAL CRASH

AT ABOVE DATES AND TIME A CAR WITH 6 MALES WAS TRAVELLING AT SPEED ALONG WINDSOR AVENUE, HASTINGS. THIS IS A 50 KM/H SPEED LIMIT ROAD. THE CAR HAS GONE OUT OF CONTROL, HIT A LIGHT POLE AND THEN A LARGE TREE. THE IMPACT HAS CAUSED SEVERE DAMAGE TO THE CAR AND 4 OF THE OCCUPANTS DIED AT THE SCENE. THE OTHER 2 HAD SEVERE INJURIES. POLICE BELIEVE THAT SPEED WAS A CONTRIBUTING CAUSE TO THE CRASH. A FULL INVESTIGATION IS BEING CARRIED OUT TODAY TO HELP ESTBLISH EXACT CAUSE OF THE CRASH. DECEASED PERSONS ARE: DYLON SCOTT BRITTIN 16 YEARS. MICHAEL NEIL JEFFERIES 16 YEARS, CHE ORBELL 17 YEARS, AND ALEX SCALES 14YEARS. ALL ARE LOCAL HASTINGS RESIDENTS. POLICE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE WITH THE VEHICLE DURING THE FRIDAY NIGHT PRIOR TO THE CRASH.
S/SGT R SMITH HASTINGS POLICE
Issued by: Sergeant Caroline Marner

[myvice]

Thing is tho as regards Driver Ed in High School- if they pay as much attention to that as they do to other stuff ( eg Maths) it would be a total waste of time unless they were being taught to do wheelies,burnouts etc. We have sex ed at school- still have a shockingly high teenage pregnancy rate and STI's -ditto for drug and alcohol education.
Any more ideas?
Beats me then. Raise the age to 17? 6-12 months on a bike first? Actual driving test? (not the poor substitute we have now) How about a defensive driving course that ISNT done on paper in a classroom?

[Motu]

6 young guys in one car speeding in a 50kph area - so what sort of car are you going to limit them to that will stop them doing that? Stop them driving Skylines and WRXs and stuff.....but they seem to be able to kill themselves in shitty old Civics easily enough.I don't know what we can do - but it's not restrictions,it's education.....you work in a school....you are in the right place,I'm not.

[Trakxntrials]

What about reducing their CC rating that they are allowed to drive. I mean that is what I had to go through to ride a bike - restrict the CC rating and go through a skills handling course - they say that bikers are bad - but guess what ... there are more people dying behind the wheel of a car. And why is a 16 year old driving with friends in the car??? What is the drivers licence required age now??? I also heard on the news tonight that the section of road where the car crashed there is a dip in the road and it is well know for "boy racers" to become AIRBOURNE! I am just worried that it is going to be one of my boys in a smashed up car one day! Something needs to be done - that's for sure.

[yungatart]

you work in a school....you are in the right place,I'm not.
I work in a school, but am not a teacher. I don't have the answers to this, just a whole lot of questions. I think that driver ed is probably the right way to go , but how do you educate the attitude out of them? ( it is the attitude that leads them to take risks that ultimately kill them and their mates). What is different about girls - they don't kill themselves nearly as much as the boys do. Where are the parents, while these kids are hooning around city streets? Why don't the cops send out a patrol car when you call to tell them that it is the fifth time in 15 minutes that the same person has wheelied up and down your street at high speed at 2.00am. How the F... can they afford the petrol to drive like that?
I wish I had answers, but I don't. I have been talking to 14y/o son tho about risky behaviour, peer pressure etc so hopefully we never have to go through what those other families are having to.

[merv]

How much of it is piss and drugs too compared to the 70's?

As for restricting cc and other things, in a 50k zone and hitting a pole and a tree it probably would have been the same result if they were driving an old Lazer or something like that.

Remember too that Yer Maun Joey Dunlop died after coming off his 125 and hitting a tree so it didn't help that he wasn't on his 1000. The laws of physics just catch up with the human body when you are going much over walking pace and you hit an immovable object.

6 of them in the car so no chance of seat belts for everyone and it sounds like two got spat through the windscreen.

It is a difficult problem because we can talk about education, but how do you get them to respect that and apply what they learn. Respect seems to be totally missing from the youth of today - respect for anyone else or their own lives as well. I'm buggered if I know.

[TonyB]

I guess all that can be done is restrict the type of car they can drive, with a power to weight limit or something as has been suggested. Nothing to stop them from taking a car that is legal and then modding it though.

When a major smash is reported on the news, I reckon the first thing that goes through a young guy's head is "That guy fucked up. Obviously couldn't handle his car- won't happen to me, I'm a good driver. I know what I'm doing"

That attitude will be the biggest problem to overcome, and I don't know what the hell you'd do to fix it.

[yungatart]

and I don't know what the hell you'd do to fix it.
Frontal lobotomies? Or removal of testosterone manufacturing systems?

[James Deuce]

Frontal lobotomies? Or removal of testosterone manufacturing systems?

No more human race if you do that. Parthenogenesis isn't quite perfect yet.

The answer is quite simple.

Bring back world spanning wars a generation apart. Kills of the rash ones, and teaches the survivors to respect life and empathise with other people.

[MD]

Notice how any of these younguns can drive sensible and avoid trees most of the time when driving alone. But pack the car full of mates- the very people who they don't want dead, and when they should feel a hightened sense of responsibility to protect their passengers they act the opposite way and show total disregard for their best friends lives???? Some sort of reverse psychology kicks in. Even when a teenager I felt the responsibility the moment someone else got into a car I was about to drive. Maybe it was a spin-off of being a pillion sometimes and realising how you were putting your life totally into someone else's hands and at times it scared the shit out of you. So at their mercy.
The Hawkes Bay & East Coast has had a terrible run of these multiple deaths.

[yungatart]

perhaps then, the answer lies in banning driving with passengers, for a much longer period than at present, and putting more police on the road to deal with the lawbreakers.

[James Deuce]

perhaps then, the answer lies in banning driving with passengers, for a much longer period than at present, and putting more police on the road to deal with the lawbreakers.

It matters not one whit what rules we put in place. It will always happen. Young men are fundamentally flawed into thinking that they are immortal. If it isn't cars it will be, and also currently is, something else dangerous killing them needlessly. Every culture experiences the same difficulty and some harness it better than others. Tribal societies with initiation rite ceremonies and protocols typically experience less "young bloke stupidity" than "Western" Judeo-Christion society. We don't provide a great deal of leadership or training on what it means to be a Man, or a Woman for that matter. We leave a lot to chance and judgement. It surprises me that there are so many of us.

[yungatart]

It matters not one whit what rules we put in place. It will always happen. Young men are fundamentally flawed into thinking that they are immortal. If it isn't cars it will be, and also currently is, something else dangerous killing them needlessly. Every culture experiences the same difficulty and some harness it better than others. Tribal societies with initiation rite ceremonies and protocols typically experience less "young bloke stupidity" than "Western" Judeo-Christion society. We don't provide a great deal of leadership or training on what it means to be a Man, or a Woman for that matter. We leave a lot to chance and judgement. It surprises me that there are so many of us.
So are you saying that we should just accept that a high proportion of our kids will kill themselves on the road driving cars that are way too powerful for their woefully inadequate skill level and get on with our own lives?

[James Deuce]

So are you saying that we should just accept that a high proportion of our kids will kill themselves on the road driving cars that are way too powerful for their woefully inadequate skill level and get on with our own lives?

Oh for fucks sake.

Read the post then say something sensible.

I'm saying it is our own fault thatwe haven't, and continue to refuse to take responsibility for making sure that our kids don't define themselves and their identity in such a way that have to search for external validation to feel valued.

The issue isn't about cars.

[yungatart]

Love my teenager and his mates are pretty cool too ( for the most part). I definitely don't want him or them leaving the planet in that fashion. I hear what you are saying Jim2, but how the f... do we change that attitude that says the passage to adulthood in Noo Zld is get drunk, get laid, get stoned (not necessarily in that order) and then try and take yourself and a few mates out in a high speed accident. If you survive, welcome to the brotherhood.
Where do you begin, when all around us are govt depts who specialise in taking away our responsibilities towards ourselves and others and then an education system that teaches that that is how it should be.

[James Deuce]

Love my teenager and his mates are pretty cool too ( for the most part). I definitely don't want him or them leaving the planet in that fashion. I hear what you are saying Jim2, but how the f... do we change that attitude that says the passage to adulthood in Noo Zld is get drunk, get laid, get stoned (not necessarily in that order) and then try and take yourself and a few mates out in a high speed accident. If you survive, welcome to the brotherhood.
Where do you begin, when all around us are govt depts who specialise in taking away our responsibilities towards ourselves and others and then an education system that teaches that that is how it should be.

It starts in the home with each person in NZ. It mostly starts with Dads. Men who've usually had a shit upbringing, who can look back with the benefit of hindsight and see that their Dad's were trying to teach them something, and get a grasp of that something. I know you love your kids. I love mine too, but the desire to protect kids is partly to blame for their inability to respond appropriately to subtle and overt threats to their survival. To teach them values that they can hold to in times of crisis that let them make decisions that are correct for the situation.

Most of all society needs to let us reclaim "male" for men. Men and women are very different. The feminisation of society in general, i.e. the removal of all risk, all violence, all anger, all individual competition, as negative and counter productive needs to be addressed at a grass roots level. We should be empowering our kids, boys especially, to achieve and succeed in terms that they value, not that their identity and gender identity is founded on shallow values of appearance, "coolness", and the values of fleeting and successive "pop cultures".

Most of all they need to be actively taught that life has value, that it is short and brutal if not respected, and that other people need to be allowed to live their life too. How many people sit down and say that to their kids? Actually say, "Don't hurt things. It's bad and there will be repercussions if you do that." We assume that kids somehow "absorb" our values. Boys need to be told, over, and over, and over, what is acceptable. Girls are acutely socially aware from an early age. Boys aren't.

We need to stop blaming outside agencies and just say to hell with what a govt dept has legislated. I want my kids to respect other people, not hurt them, steal their stuff, lie, cheat, and put their lives in danger. Most of all I want to be able to say to my Sons that being a man doesn't mean being the alpha male is the only worthy life.

[James Deuce]

Errr - I'm drunk and emotional so just ignore me. I tend to rant a bit when the neurotoxins remove my inhibitions. Suppressed rage at social injustice you know.

[SPman]

So are you saying that we should just accept that a high proportion of our kids will kill themselves on the road driving cars that are way too powerful for their woefully inadequate skill level and get on with our own lives?
Yes!
Passive eugenics!
See also Jims post which I totally agree with!!

[scumdog]

And I still get comments like "there's enough room for eight in this car" and "aw, would you rather one of these drunks with a full licence drove or me with my learners licence"? or "these old cars are cool 'cos they only have two front seatbelts and none in the back"


Or "I'm a really good driver" ME: "who told you?" them: "nobody, I know I am, nobody had to tell me"


Arrrrgh!!!!! :mad:

[TonyB]

Errr - I'm drunk and emotional so just ignore me. I tend to rant a bit when the neurotoxins remove my inhibitions. Suppressed rage at social injustice you know.
Jim- don't appologise for that rant. There's a lot of truth in there.

I've been saying for years that we are creating a society where men don't fit in. We need to ask ourselves why most boys think it is uncool* to achieve acidemicaly at school. It's fine to do it on the sports feild, but not in the class room- why is that? Are they over compensating for an enviroment that has been overly shifted in the girls favour? Only a handfull of boys can achieve what they want on the sports feild... whats left for the ones that can't? Especially in an urban enviroment where you can't go pig/ deer hunting and most 'masculine' activities are socially unacceptable. Did anyone see 'The Real Fight Club' on TV? These guys- business professionals from early 20's to mid 50's- were going boxing for this very reason.

I remember when I was in my late teens or early 20's sitting down with a bunch of mates and talking about stuff like this over far too many beers. One of my mates said something like 'when do we become men? I still feel like a kid, other societies have a right-of-passage- when do we KNOW that we are men?'

Now I'm ranting...LOL

*no doubt showing my age here

[Jantar]

We need to ask ourselves why most boys think it is uncool* to achieve acidemicaly at school. It's fine to do it on the sports feild, but not in the class room- why is that? Are they over compensating for an enviroment that has been overly shifted in the girls favour?

There has been a lot of recent research comparing the male and female brain, and how the differences show up in education and achievement. One of the main differences is that the female of the species is far more capable at multi-tasking, while the male is far better at problem solving and competition.

It is in the basic male psyche to be the best at something. In the caveman days he may have been the best hunter, or the best warrior, or the best tool maker. The female though is more co-operative rather than competive, and works best to a standard. Hence the female is far better at raising children, working in a group (modern politics perhaps?), or managing routines.

In education, we used to foster a competive attitude with streamed classes, competitive exams, class rankings etc. This system did favour boys over girls and there was concern that girls didn't do so well at school. Then, about 20 years ago, education started to change to standards based system which today has evolved to NCEA. Standards have been dumbed down to reduce any sense of failure, and as long as a minumum standard is met, that is now considered acceptable.

Boys no longer have anything to compete for in the classroom. so they compete on the road instead.

[MSTRS]

Reading this thread shows that no further proof is reqd that the dastardly plan to erode our rights & reponsibilties is working. Hand in hand with that goes the disappearance of the ability to think for ourselves. Time for a National/Act/NZ First coalition methinks. Or a beer. Or something.

[Beemer]

Unfortunately, travelling at 100kph in a 50kph zone and overtaking a car is always going to be a recipe for disaster. It's amazing that any of them survived considering there is no way all of them could have been wearing a seatbelt - six bodies and five (at most) seatbelts.

When I was growing up no one could afford high powered cars like this and I think it probably did result in more people surviving accidents because they were more likely to involve sliding off the road than flying through the air and rolling at great speed.

I don't know what the answer is either - I've seen people who can crash no matter what they are driving so just restricting the power wouldn't stop the deaths - but it possibly would reduce the number of accidents.

It's about time parents started parenting. I realise many parents look on their children as their friends, but this is not always a good idea. When I was 14, if I wasn't home when I said I'd be (and the deadline sure as hell wasn't 3am!), my mother would come looking for me! Hell, she was like that until I left home at 23! But as she pointed out to me, she never had to worry about getting a call in the early hours to say I was in hospital or worse.

Perhaps if wearing a baseball cap backwards and not being able to see out of your car windows because you were sitting on the floor became suddenly uncool, voila! the problem could disappear overnight!

[MSTRS]

Actually tho. Most of the 'old' standards as us 40+ers would understand them, existed for good reason. Social/Law changes that have been wrought in the last 20 years may have been wellmeaning but we are seeing the realities now. Jim2 & Jantar - you are right. Imposing social standards and individual responsibility begins in the home and it does seem to be lacking. Our education system is geared at creating the beige & unremarkable. Competition is what boys need and when denied it they will 'find' it where they can as soon as they are out of a controlled situation (let's face it, the boi-racer culture is one of these). How do we 'turn the clock back' tho?

[MSTRS]

Unfortunately, travelling at 100kph in a 50kph zone and overtaking a car is always going to be a recipe for disaster.
This morning's paper reports that the speed was estimated by a resident at 130Kph (I think was higher - the photo of the car certainly suggests that). The driver was not the owner & was apparently their sober driver. He normally drove an 'underpowered bomb' so the power of a turbo'd Familia would be a huge temptation. Report also says that they swerved to avoid a car crossing their path from the left rather than overtaking. Should this prove to be the case, it shows that the driver of the other car (perhaps) thought that there was plenty of time to cross because of the distance the crashcar had yet to travel before reaching the intersection.

[crazyxr250rider]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit

[onearmedbandit]

I have not read all of the above posts but I know I'm only here by luck now too, plenty of times when I was a 'yoof' (now 29) that my friends and I were incredibly lucky not to be in the same situation as these unfortunate souls. And from my reasonably wide group of friends, I know a lot of them are in the same boat. Whether from feeling 'bullet-proof' or from basic lack of experience behind the wheel, but I know things could've been much worse.

I'm not trying to offer any answers (obviously), but all I'm saying is that in all of our lives we too could've ended up like these guys. So is there any resolve, probably not. Young people will always feel like they know it all and are bullet proof, combine that with a lack of experience and you've got a recipie for disaster, russian roulettte style.

[WINJA]

Just saw on the news tonight that four teenagers lost their lives in a high speed crash in HB this am. As a parent of a teenager and someone who works at a High School I would hate to have to deal with losing anyone I cared about in this way. It is blatantly obvious that the licensing restriction system and the anti speed campaign does not work for our young people- who consider themselves 10 foot tall and bullet proof -all evidence to the contrary! Perhaps we need to increase the age at which our young people can get behind the wheel of these souped up machines, as in Europe or maybe we need to have a power to weight ratio restriction. I don't think it was so much of an issue back in the seventies as teenagers drove ancient sluggish old bangers as in Humber 80's, Ford defects etc - certainly not capable of the speeds that todays kids can attain in their Legacys, WRX's, Evo's etc funded by nearsighted parents in a lot of cases.
I find the whole thing really, really sad and wonder what can be done about it.
YOU CAN DO YOUR BEST TO STOP YOUR KIDS FROM BEING STUPID ON THE ROAD , BUT EVEN THEN IT DONT ALWAYS WORK .
I THINK IN THAT SORT OF ACCIDENT THERE IS USUALLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN INDIVIDUAL IN THE CAR TO SPEAK UP OR AT LEAST GET OUT.
IF I HAD A KID AND HE GOT OUT OF A CAR BEING DRIVEN BY A MORON ID DRIVE ANYWHERE TO PICK HIM UP

[yungatart]

YOU CAN DO YOUR BEST TO STOP YOUR KIDS FROM BEING STUPID ON THE ROAD , BUT EVEN THEN IT DONT ALWAYS WORK .
I THINK IN THAT SORT OF ACCIDENT THERE IS USUALLY AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN INDIVIDUAL IN THE CAR TO SPEAK UP OR AT LEAST GET OUT.
IF I HAD A KID AND HE GOT OUT OF A CAR BEING DRIVEN BY A MORON ID DRIVE ANYWHERE TO PICK HIM UP
Sometimes the driver refuses to listen- as in the accident a couple of years ago also in HB where 2 teenages died when the vehicle driven by their friend at high speed through a red light collided with a truck. Tis better to teach them to not get int he car in the first place surely-kinda hard to get out of a car moving at 130kph

[Ixion]

Thre is nothing new in any of this. 40 years ago teenage boys were EXACTLY the same as they are now.

What has changed is the cars. Not that they are more powerful - most of the fatalities occur in 50kph zones, and at speeds that the old Zephyrs could reach. But in the fact that cars have physically become easy to drive. 40 years ago actually driving the car was a skilled business. Nowdays, with auto transmission, power brakes and steering, modern suspension systems, you just sit there and push on the pedal. It's easy, totally unfrightening, until something goes wrong. Then it goes wrong horribly fast. And often the time they get killed is the first time anythings has ever gone wrong. With the Zephyr we had lots of scares. You don't in modern cars.The Zephyr could do 150kph, but you sure knew you were going fast. But manufacturers won't go back to making Zephyrs and if they did no one would buy them

Capacty restrictions won't work , nor will "no turbo" type rules, because even a stock Corolla can go more than fast enough to kill you.

Nor will license restrictions. Already it takes, I think, about three years to get all the way through. That means , in theory, no-one under 18 on a full. I'm sure Mr Scumdog can tell us how that stacks up to reality. Push it out to 20+?. Why will that be more respected than the present limit? And at 20 people may be married. Are we going to say that a married couple can't travel in the same car ?

And all restrictions will fail because there will be no "buy in" from those they restirct. They will just be seen as dreary olds wanting to stop youff having any fun. With some justification.Even I think that and I'm no youff. How many of those calling for restriction here can say honesty that they NEVER want to drive or ride fast. I am the sites biggest Nana, but I can't say that.So why should we expect young men to believe what we don't ?

We have to accept that young men (yes it's different for girls. Part of the problem. "Why can't you be like a girl? Girls are good, you're not. Boys are worthless" ) will want to go fast, and will have access to cars to do it.

If we genuinely want to stop them being killed so often they only way involves changes that no NZ government is going to agree to.

One is providing boys with NON WIMPY male models. **NOT** the dreary wimps who are usually put forward. But guys that boys will WANT to emulate, and who can honestly say "Yes, it's cool to go fast. I do it, and I'm *REALLY* fast. But it's NOT cool to go fast under these conditions. ". Want to know who I reckon would be the best model for boys, on this site? Mr WINJA. See, I can hear the scream already. You won't accept it. But he would be. He really can go fast, he's not a goody goody two-shoes, and he's sensible enough to tell them when to cool it , and tough enough to clip them over the ear if they don't. But would a single one of you would accept him as a model for your kids ? :no: (No offence meant Mr WINJA, I'm just demonstarting that society talks the talk, but it won't walk the walk )

The other is providing a graduated license scheme that makes SKILLED driving something to brag about. Who are the guys who proverbially DON'T overdo things on the road ? The racers, car or bike. Because they get their speed kicks on the track, and learn just how fast things can go lavender , they are usually very cautious on the road. Introduce a high speed license, and see young men fight to be good drivers. But it won't happen because society will never agree to it.

So, yep, there is no answer to this. Young men ARE going to go on killing themseles, because society , that means YOU, is not willing to face the reality of what being a young guy is about.

Keep trying to turn boys into nice docile girls and they'll keep rebelling . And if speeding recklessly is the only way they can demostrate that they aren't girls, then that's what they'll do.

Want to stop young men dying, oh society ? Change yourself. Don't want to though, do you ? :no:

EDIT: BEfore flame war starts. When I say "you" I don't mean YOU. Hypothetical you. And I'm sure everyone on this site is a first class parent. I am talking in generalities.

[onearmedbandit]

Had my full license in a year. Took my L restriction from 6mths to 3 by driving around with a instructor, did a defensive driving course for my restricted and shortened that from 18mths to 9. Think I was 15 when I got my learners (14yrs ago.)

[scumdog]

As per WINJA above, I told my two boys not to buckle to peer pressure - if somebody is driving like a dick? - tell them to pull over and walk/call me.
Not ALWAYS practicable but the best they would be able to do.

Told them risky activities are o.k. - IF they are in control and it's an 'acceptable' activity. i.e. hunting,sports,controlled driving events etc.

Luckily both seem not to have inherited my 'petrol-head' gene.

[SPORK]

Mr Ixion, unless I'm mistaken, you can have your full by the time you're 16, if you do a CBTA or something orrather course.

6 Months Learners
12 Months Restricted (With course, of course)

In theory, this means that can have my full license sometime around October next year. I got my learners the day after my birthday ('twas on a Sunday)

The common misconception of all teens thinking they are bulletproof is rather frustrating, but to a certain extent I must agree. I like to think of my friends and I being of the higher mental calibre, so I don't think I'd fall under the general umbrella of thinking I'm invincable. (I'm certain I just spelled that wrong).

To prove my point, after dropping a friend home with Mum around 11:30pm, she asked me if I wanted to drive home. I declined, as I didn't think I was at my peak mental sharpness. I'd like to think that other people my age in similar situations would do the same thing, but I doubt it. Being raised in a Fiddy Cent enviornment at school is infuriating enough, but having those dicks on the road is just asking for an assrape.

I just woke up, so I doubt that makes much sense. Au Revoir!

[scumdog]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit

Rad the post above yours.

I assume your cousin wears a big sign saying "I AM TRAVELLING AT OVER 140kph" above his WRX so that other road users are aware he is doing those speeds and not just 100kph? :mad:

Techniqur-schmechnique, if he keeps those speeds up he'll come unstuck eventually - and it will be most unpleasant for all concerned.

[Ixion]

Mr Ixion, unless I'm mistaken, you can have your full by the time you're 16, if you do a CBTA or something orrather course.

6 Months Learners
12 Months Restricted (With course, of course)

In theory, this means that can have my full license sometime around October next year. I got my learners the day after my birthday ('twas on a Sunday)

The common misconception of all teens thinking they are bulletproof is rather frustrating, but to a certain extent I must agree. I like to think of my friends and I being of the higher mental calibre, so I don't think I'd fall under the general umbrella of thinking I'm invincable. (I'm certain I just spelled that wrong).

To prove my point, after dropping a friend home with Mum around 11:30pm, she asked me if I wanted to drive home. I declined, as I didn't think I was at my peak mental sharpness. I'd like to think that other people my age in similar situations would do the same thing, but I doubt it. Being raised in a Fiddy Cent enviornment at school is infuriating enough, but having those dicks on the road is just asking for an assrape.

I just woke up, so I doubt that makes much sense. Au Revoir!


To be sure. We must remember that the majority of young men, like you , are NOT going to be doing things that will wrap them round a telephone pole. They WILL be sensible (well, relatively anyway), and won't end up as a statistic.

But we are by definition here, talking about those who DON'T fit into that group.

Which is my point. It is no good introducing new rules or restrictions , or initiatives, that will only be effective for people like you. You don't need them.

Anything that is going to stop young men getting killed has to work FOR THE YOUNG MEN AT RISK OF BEING KILLED. And we have to meet them on THEIR territory.

Yes, I did realise that defensive driving course can reduce the time to get a full. But if we are going to allow such concessions, then why talk of increasing the period/age ? Why not just remove the concession. Once again, defensive driving courses are no doubt excellent for those who don't need them. But those that do need them, may attend, the concession, but it won't change their behaviour one iota.

Seems silly to say "Young people get license at too young an age. Lets put up the age , but also have a concession so they can still get them at a young age"

[yungatart]

There is an outfit called "prodrive" (I think) that puts kids behind the wheel of a car and teaches them how to drive out of trouble. They use a "dolly type thing"It is all done in a controlled situation. Making something like that compulsory for all learner drivers would be a great start. It would target both those that need it and those that don't but would give them all skills to deal with the kind of trouble they could meet on the road.

[MSTRS]

I also think that there is a thing called (self)discipline missing these days http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=14879

[WINJA]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit
I KNOW A CHINESE STUDENT WHO GOT THE HOTTEST WRX AND THEN SPENT THOUSANDS OF HIS DADS DOLLARS ON EVERY PERFORMANCE PART HES 20 YO AND SPED EVERY WHERE THE COPS TOOK HIS LICENCE GOOD THING TOO HE WAS
A SHIT DRIVER , GOT CAUGHT AGAIN CAUSE THEY KNOW THE CAR , SO HE GIVES THE CAR TO HIS UNLICENCED 18YO CHINESE STUDENT GF AND BOUGHT AN EVEN MORE POWERFULL SKYLINE WITH EVERY THING ON IT BIG TURBO ETC AND CONTINUED TO DRIVE THAT AROUND CRASHING AT LEAST MONTHLY . WHAT A CUNT , THEN HE BACKS INTO EVERYONES CAR ONE DAY IN A RUSH TO LEAVE WHICH HE DENIED AND DENIED TILL I PRINTED OFF THE SECURITY SYSTEM AND SHOWED HIM , THE COPS WERENT INTERESTED ,I THINK THEY WERE WAITING FOR HIM AND HIS GF TO KILL A NEW ZEALANDER EACH FIRST THEN MAKE A DONATION TO A KINDY AND THEN SEND THEM HOME

[mstriumph]

this is so sensible that it's absolutely GUARANTEED it will never happen ....... damn! :no:
..............................

The other is providing a graduated license scheme that makes SKILLED driving something to brag about. ....................... Introduce a high speed license, and see young men fight to be good drivers. But it won't happen because society will never agree to it.

.........

[Jeremy]

Thre is nothing new in any of this. 40 years ago teenage boys were EXACTLY the same as they are now.

What has changed is the cars. Not that they are more powerful - most of the fatalities occur in 50kph zones, and at speeds that the old Zephyrs could reach. But in the fact that cars have physically become easy to drive. 40 years ago actually driving the car was a skilled business. Nowdays, with auto transmission, power brakes and steering, modern suspension systems, you just sit there and push on the pedal. It's easy, totally unfrightening, until something goes wrong. Then it goes wrong horribly fast. And often the time they get killed is the first time anythings has ever gone wrong. With the Zephyr we had lots of scares. You don't in modern cars.The Zephyr could do 150kph, but you sure knew you were going fast. But manufacturers won't go back to making Zephyrs and if they did no one would buy them

Capacty restrictions won't work , nor will "no turbo" type rules, because even a stock Corolla can go more than fast enough to kill you.

Nor will license restrictions. Already it takes, I think, about three years to get all the way through. That means , in theory, no-one under 18 on a full. I'm sure Mr Scumdog can tell us how that stacks up to reality. Push it out to 20+?. Why will that be more respected than the present limit? And at 20 people may be married. Are we going to say that a married couple can't travel in the same car ?

And all restrictions will fail because there will be no "buy in" from those they restirct. They will just be seen as dreary olds wanting to stop youff having any fun. With some justification.Even I think that and I'm no youff. How many of those calling for restriction here can say honesty that they NEVER want to drive or ride fast. I am the sites biggest Nana, but I can't say that.So why should we expect young men to believe what we don't ?

We have to accept that young men (yes it's different for girls. Part of the problem. "Why can't you be like a girl? Girls are good, you're not. Boys are worthless" ) will want to go fast, and will have access to cars to do it.

If we genuinely want to stop them being killed so often they only way involves changes that no NZ government is going to agree to.

One is providing boys with NON WIMPY male models. **NOT** the dreary wimps who are usually put forward. But guys that boys will WANT to emulate, and who can honestly say "Yes, it's cool to go fast. I do it, and I'm *REALLY* fast. But it's NOT cool to go fast under these conditions. ". Want to know who I reckon would be the best model for boys, on this site? Mr WINJA. See, I can hear the scream already. You won't accept it. But he would be. He really can go fast, he's not a goody goody two-shoes, and he's sensible enough to tell them when to cool it , and tough enough to clip them over the ear if they don't. But would a single one of you would accept him as a model for your kids ? :no: (No offence meant Mr WINJA, I'm just demonstarting that society talks the talk, but it won't walk the walk )

The other is providing a graduated license scheme that makes SKILLED driving something to brag about. Who are the guys who proverbially DON'T overdo things on the road ? The racers, car or bike. Because they get their speed kicks on the track, and learn just how fast things can go lavender , they are usually very cautious on the road. Introduce a high speed license, and see young men fight to be good drivers. But it won't happen because society will never agree to it.

So, yep, there is no answer to this. Young men ARE going to go on killing themseles, because society , that means YOU, is not willing to face the reality of what being a young guy is about.

Keep trying to turn boys into nice docile girls and they'll keep rebelling . And if speeding recklessly is the only way they can demostrate that they aren't girls, then that's what they'll do.

Want to stop young men dying, oh society ? Change yourself. Don't want to though, do you ? :no:

EDIT: BEfore flame war starts. When I say "you" I don't mean YOU. Hypothetical you. And I'm sure everyone on this site is a first class parent. I am talking in generalities.

"nice docile girls" ha. And another ha for good measure. The worst drivers I've ever met are female, incapable of controlling the car at low speeds often with cars they did not pay for themselves.

If someone has worked hard for something then you'll do whatever it takes to keep it. Most of the "boy racers" I've met are absolutely petrified that someone will hit their car as they'd cost a fortune to replace.

I'm also fairly sure that there hasn't been a real increase in the number of youth driving casulties. As the population increases of course there's going to be more deaths.

The other group of drivers I don't trust are the middle aged ones driving around in their BMWs. They don't care if they hit someone, they can afford to replace their cars with ease. Even speeding tickets don't affect them as they can afford to take a taxi to work if they lose their license. Also it's been a long time since they had to pass a driving test. The people I see following the road rules to the letter tend to be young.

By the way the quickest test I can think of that shows that there really isn't a problem with how young people can drive is really this thread. People are talking because 4 young people died due to excessive speed. There wouldn't even be a thread if it was 4 people in their 30s as that is so common it happens every week.

[MSTRS]

"nice docile girls" ha. And another ha for good measure. The worst drivers I've ever met are female, incapable of controlling the car at low speeds often with cars they did not pay for themselves.

If someone has worked hard for something then you'll do whatever it takes to keep it. Most of the "boy racers" I've met are absolutely petrified that someone will hit their car as they'd cost a fortune to replace.

I'm also fairly sure that there hasn't been a real increase in the number of youth driving casulties. As the population increases of course there's going to be more deaths.

The other group of drivers I don't trust are the middle aged ones driving around in their BMWs. They don't care if they hit someone, they can afford to replace their cars with ease. Even speeding tickets don't affect them as they can afford to take a taxi to work if they lose their license. Also it's been a long time since they had to pass a driving test. The people I see following the road rules to the letter tend to be young.

By the way the quickest test I can think of that shows that there really isn't a problem with how young people can drive is really this thread. People are talking because 4 young people died due to excessive speed. There wouldn't even be a thread if it was 4 people in their 30s as that is so common it happens every week.
What a load of selfserving garbage. 90 15-24yo this year so far. As a percentage, this has to be the worst year ever for young people killing themselves and others on our roads.

[mstriumph]

NICE am i :sneaky2: ?? ...... DOCILE am i :bash: ???
..............................Keep trying to turn boys into nice docile girls and they'll keep rebelling . And if speeding recklessly is the only way they can demostrate that they aren't girls, then that's what they'll do..

[Jeremy]

What a load of selfserving garbage. 90 15-24yo this year so far. As a percentage, this has to be the worst year ever for young people killing themselves and others on our roads.

Stats comes to the rescue. Might be an outlier, you simply can't just say 90 people. You'd need to know what it was like for the past 50 years. And you'd need to know the proportion of people of that age living in NZ.

Edit: Knew the LTSA had to have it somewhere.

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/research/young.html

[Ixion]

"nice docile girls" ha. And another ha for good measure. The worst drivers I've ever met are female, incapable of controlling the car at low speeds often with cars they did not pay for themselves.

If someone has worked hard for something then you'll do whatever it takes to keep it. Most of the "boy racers" I've met are absolutely petrified that someone will hit their car as they'd cost a fortune to replace.

I'm also fairly sure that there hasn't been a real increase in the number of youth driving casulties. As the population increases of course there's going to be more deaths.

The other group of drivers I don't trust are the middle aged ones driving around in their BMWs. They don't care if they hit someone, they can afford to replace their cars with ease. Even speeding tickets don't affect them as they can afford to take a taxi to work if they lose their license. Also it's been a long time since they had to pass a driving test. The people I see following the road rules to the letter tend to be young.

By the way the quickest test I can think of that shows that there really isn't a problem with how young people can drive is really this thread. People are talking because 4 young people died due to excessive speed. There wouldn't even be a thread if it was 4 people in their 30s as that is so common it happens every week.


Lot of truth there. Can't say I can recall the last time a boi racer actually did something that endangered me. Very annoying to be sure, especially to an old Nana like me. But that's not the same as dangerous.

Not quite sure that it's true that the issue is no more than it was when I was young. My mates used to write off cars , but didn't kill themselves.

And some of the angst about young drivers dying is because their death causes more heartsearching.

If an old fart like me dies, some people (I hope) will grieve. But there will be an unspoken thought of "Oh well, he had his innings, and probably didn't have long to go anyway"

When a 16year old dies, people feel that it is a waste, and a shame that the young person never got to experience much of life. So people do feel young deaths more.

I am SO not getting into any argument about the merits of male and female drivers :rofl:

[mstriumph]

soooooooooo many generalisations, soooooooooooo little *searching fruitlessly for right word* ......... :no:


..................... The worst drivers I've ever met are female, incapable of controlling the car at low speeds often with cars they did not pay for themselves...............middle aged ones driving around in their BMWs. They don't care if they hit someone, they can afford to replace their cars with ease. Even speeding tickets don't affect them as they can afford to take a taxi to work if they lose their license. Also it's been a long time since they had to pass a driving test.........

[yungatart]

The point is, Jeremy, that young men (15-24) are much more likely to die on the roads than any other age group-because of their attitudes, lack of skill and experience. That is a fact. 90 of these young people have died in seven months this year. That is horrendous!!! Some of these have been girls -but i'd hazard a guess that the cars were driven by boys in most cases.
When young ones die it is more tragic than some old fart losing their life, because it is the total irrevocable loss of potential. They will never achieve their goals or dreams and in most cases, will not have even begun to.
I sincerely hope yooung fella, when you get out there on the road on your nice new fast bike that you are saving up for, that you don't become one of the statistics.

[mstriumph]

Aaaaawwwwww !!

I am SO not getting into any argument about the merits of male and female drivers :rofl:

[mstriumph]

ie EXACTLY the same reasons governments find it so easy to send them into battle?
The point is, Jeremy, that young men (15-24) are much more likely to die on the roads than any other age group-because of their attitudes, lack of skill and experience. That is a fact. ......................

[Jeremy]

Damn looks like I needed a 7 point mean, but anyway it shows the trend fairly well.

Also even this is missing significant pieces of information, such as who was at fault, alchohol consumed. Anyway considering that the population has grown by a million people (a third). It's a dramatic decrease in road toll over time.

[yungatart]

Looks like the trend is coming down, but I notice that your graph stops at 2003.A comparison over all ages would be good too. However that 90 kids have died in the last seven months is still a tragedy in my opinion and one that we need to do something about.

[mstriumph]

my grandfather always used to say [and i don't believe it was original] that there are three classes of liars -----
. liars
. damn liars
. statistics

and being able to graph 'how many' is no help whatsoever in bringing a single one of them back to life

sad

[Marmoot]

Errr - I'm drunk and emotional so just ignore me. I tend to rant a bit when the neurotoxins remove my inhibitions. Suppressed rage at social injustice you know.

No apology necessary, Jim.
your previous post about feminization of our general values make much sense and is quite novel and original for me. I have never seen the problem put in such an accurate way.

Well done.

Gives me shivers with this government trying to interfere with family values more and more by anti-spanking bills etc.

[Jantar]

... The worst drivers I've ever met are female....


soooooooooo many generalisations, soooooooooooo little *searching fruitlessly for right word* .........

mstriumph, Note what Jeremy said. He was specific and not generalising at all.

I must agree with him as the worst driver I've ever met was also a female. However Jeremy isn't claiming that ALL, or even a majority of, female drivers are bad drivers. And I will state that one of the best drivers I've ever met is a female. She was very fast around Levels, and extremely confident and competent on the open road.

[mstriumph]

mebbe - but also coherant and able to spell under pressure - i admire that in a man :rofl:
Errr - I'm drunk and emotional so just ignore me. I tend to rant a bit when the neurotoxins remove my inhibitions. Suppressed rage at social injustice you know.

[mstriumph]

.. and the "middle-aged BMW drivers ......." ?
mstriumph, Note what Jeremy said. He was specific and not generalising at all. ...................

[Jantar]

.. and the "middle-aged BMW drivers ......." ?

I can't comment on the middle aged drivers in BMWs, as the only person I know in this category is a female who is a fairly good driver.

[Jeremy]

The point is, Jeremy, that young men (15-24) are much more likely to die on the roads than any other age group-because of their attitudes, lack of skill and experience. That is a fact.

Is it a fact? Can you prove that it's not because they travel more kms than the other age groups? Or that they're more likely to be carrying a full load of passengers thus they appear overrepresented the data. I see it everyday when I go into Uni. I haven't seen anyone other than students car pooling.

[MSTRS]

Is it a fact? Can you prove that it's not because they travel more kms than the other age groups? Or that they're more likely to be carrying a full load of passengers thus they appear overrepresented the data. I see it everyday when I go into Uni. I haven't seen anyone other than students car pooling.
Yes, it is a fact. Has always been so. It has nothing to do with kms travelled either. Multiple deaths are also a greater factor now for reasons stated earlier in this thread, in addition to there being way more cars on the roads too. You do have a point re 'carpooling', but it doesn't seem to be a problem in this situation per se.

[Biff]

What about reducing their CC rating that they are allowed to drive.

I'd vote for that. And while they're at it they should make insurance compulsary - then we'll see how many youngsters can afford to keep a high powered cages on the road - legally. Sure there will be some that'll kill themselves in older, less powerful motors, but I'll bet my arse that the fatality figures as a whole would drop.

[Fluffy Cat]

Some of you guys must work where i work, ban this check sheet for that etc.
Keep forgetting human nature, might as well ban trees.
You can do a bit of teaching show the results of accidents etc but these things happen we might reduce them but teens have a habit of doing these things over and over......

[SPman]

Keep forgetting human nature, might as well ban trees.
You can do a bit of teaching show the results of accidents etc but these things happen we might reduce them but teens have a habit of doing these things over and over......

and have been doing so for hundreds - nay - thousands of years.

[scumdog]

Damn looks like I needed a 7 point mean, but anyway it shows the trend fairly well.

Also even this is missing significant pieces of information, such as who was at fault, alchohol consumed. Anyway considering that the population has grown by a million people (a third). It's a dramatic decrease in road toll over time.

But you'll never convince Lou....

[MSTRS]

One of the 2 injured in the crash that started this thread has now died. And on last nights' news it was stated that 15-24yo males are 7x more likely to kill themselves on the roads than any other age group.

[scumdog]

One of the 2 injured in the crash that started this thread has now died. And on last nights' news it was stated that 15-24yo males are 7x more likely to kill themselves on the roads than any other age group.

But they drive better than the average driver, have faster reactions etc etc they'll tell you that themselves :wait:

[MSTRS]

But they drive better than the average driver, have faster reactions etc etc they'll tell you that themselves :wait:
You forgot to mention the improvement that comes as a result of drinking & peer :whistle: pressure

[Lou Girardin]

he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph


If that's true and not the bullshit it appears to be, because it means he travels constantly at well over 200k's, prepare yourself for another funeral. He'll not be around long.

[Lou Girardin]

But you'll never convince Lou....

Funny how the graph stops at '03. Is that because the graph starts heading up again?

[scumdog]

See, whatdidItellyou? :rofl:

Nah, it still is dropping per capita/km travelled.

Except for suicidal types as per the weekend - but wait, there was speed involved!!

Speed Limits? - Lets leave it to "personal judgment" - now THERE'S a side-splitting line used by somebody on this forum!!!! :rofl: :whistle:

[Lou Girardin]

The problem with modern cars is not their top speed, but their acceleration. They slingshot their inexperienced drivers into dangerous situations far too fast.
There needs to a lift in the driving age and restrictions on cars newbies can drive. No forced induction types and a max power to weight ratio.
These restrictions then need to be enforced. Drive past any secondary school and watch the carloads of kids leaving. I'm damn sure they're not all on full licences.
But, as usual, this will all be too hard for the LTNZ, they'll make a few more lame ads, and raise the Police speed tax budget.

[scumdog]

The problem with modern cars is not their top speed, but their acceleration. They slingshot their inexperienced drivers into dangerous situations far too fast.
There needs to a lift in the driving age and restrictions on cars newbies can drive. No forced induction types and a max power to weight ratio.
These restrictions then need to be enforced. Drive past any secondary school and watch the carloads of kids leaving. I'm damn sure they're not all on full licences.
But, as usual, this will all be too hard for the LTNZ, they'll make a few more lame ads, and raise the Police speed tax budget.

I agree in principle Lou but that last multi-death was not caused by somebody just accelerating up to 50KPH or a little over, it WAS the excess speed that was a major factor.

Roadside inpounds for breaches of Restricte/Learner licences would straighten things up pretty damn quick as most of them don't give a toss about the ticket (although the loss of licence after 4 tickets cools them off a bit) and come up with lame excuses for their breach of R/L licence, normally staring with "I was just....".

A lot say "gimme the ticket, I'm not going to pay it, I'll just do P.D. instead"

[TonyB]

Had my full license in a year. Took my L restriction from 6mths to 3 by driving around with a instructor, did a defensive driving course for my restricted and shortened that from 18mths to 9. Think I was 15 when I got my learners (14yrs ago.)
As there was a fairly brief period between when the open road limit was raised from 80 to 100k and the introduction of the staged licence thingy for cars, I can say that I am one of the fairly small group of people who were allowed to drive at 100km/h at any time of the day and with a car full of mates as soon as I sat my licence.

I got my licence back when a well off kid could afford a Mk 3 Cortina, or maybe a Capri. V8's were becoming rare. I actually laughed when I saw the first Jap car with mags etc in Nelson- it was unheard of. The current licencing scheme was devised way back then, when all the boys could buy was a basic family car.

The law needs revising- yes they will still get themselves in trouble, but if they are in a standard Lancer instead of a GSR (180KW) or an EVO (205KW), they are going to be going a whole lot slower.

[MSTRS]

As there was a fairly brief period between when the open road limit was raised from 80 to 100k and the introduction of the staged licence thingy for cars, I can say that I am one of the fairly small group of people who were allowed to drive at 100km/h at any time of the day and with a car full of mates as soon as I sat my licence.

I got my licence back when a well off kid could afford a Mk 3 Cortina, or maybe a Capri. V8's were becoming rare. I actually laughed when I saw the first Jap car with mags etc in Nelson- it was unheard of. The current licencing scheme was devised way back then, when all the boys could buy was a basic family car.

The law needs revising- yes they will still get themselves in trouble, but if they are in a standard Lancer instead of a GSR (180KW) or an EVO (205KW), they are going to be going a whole lot slower.
Full bike & car before those days myself. A Mk3 Cortina would have been the shizz. One mate of mine was allowed to use his parent's LJ Torana 2.8lt 6cyl and the fun we had in that you wouldn't want said parents to hear about - but the average fuel injected family car of today would eat that Torana.

[Lou Girardin]

See, whatdidItellyou? :rofl:

Nah, it still is dropping per capita/km travelled.

Except for suicidal types as per the weekend - but wait, there was speed involved!!

Speed Limits? - Lets leave it to "personal judgment" - now THERE'S a side-splitting line used by somebody on this forum!!!! :rofl: :whistle:

Calling 130 in a 50 "speeding" is like saying a paralytic driver was slightly pissed.
Funny how these "known boy-racer" areas are known to everyone but the local cops. :doh:

[Lou Girardin]

I agree in principle Lou but that last multi-death was not caused by somebody just accelerating up to 50KPH or a little over, it WAS the excess speed that was a major factor.

Roadside inpounds for breaches of Restricte/Learner licences would straighten things up pretty damn quick as most of them don't give a toss about the ticket (although the loss of licence after 4 tickets cools them off a bit) and come up with lame excuses for their breach of R/L licence, normally staring with "I was just....".

A lot say "gimme the ticket, I'm not going to pay it, I'll just do P.D. instead"

If he wasn't in turbo pocket rocket he may not have been able to attain 130 so quickly, if he'd been doing 100k's he may not have lost control.
The problem with roadside impounds is that you guys use it like a broadsword when it should be used like a rapier. But I guess you can't give some cops powers and not let them play with them.

[scumdog]

Calling 130 in a 50 "speeding" is like saying a paralytic driver was slightly pissed.
Funny how these "known boy-racer" areas are known to everyone but the local cops. :doh:
Oh they are, they are - but there are only so many cops to go around and the old txt springs most cunning plans, the BR set just move off to fresher pastures until the "local cops" leave.

The public need to sharpen their act too, reporting something the next day is too late (assuming somebody could attend at the time) and a lot have no idea of regos/car descriptions etc and in any case 'don't want to get involved' until after the event when they stand around saying "I knew this would happen, 'THEY' should have done something about it".... :mad:

[Beemer]

One of the 2 injured in the crash that started this thread has now died. And on last nights' news it was stated that 15-24yo males are 7x more likely to kill themselves on the roads than any other age group.

Unless you know something we don't, this is what the latest on Stuff has: "Two survivors of a horror crash in Hastings on Friday which killed four of their friends were in a serious but stable condition in hospital this morning."

[mstriumph]

:whistle: hey, to be fair - EVERYBODY drives better than the average driver, don't we ?
But they drive better than the average driver, have faster reactions etc etc they'll tell you that themselves :wait:

[mstriumph]

over here in west australia the police have started confiscating vehicles under some circumstances ---- too soon to notice any statistical trend though
...........it WAS the excess speed that was a major factor.

Roadside inpounds for breaches of Restricte/Learner licences would straighten things up pretty damn quick as most of them don't give a toss about the ticket (although the loss of licence after 4 tickets cools them off a bit) and come up with lame excuses for their breach of R/L licence, normally staring with "I was just....".

A lot say "gimme the ticket, I'm not going to pay it, I'll just do P.D. instead"

[yungatart]

Oh they are, they are - but there are only so many cops to go around and the old txt springs most cunning plans, the BR set just move off to fresher pastures until the "local cops" leave.

The public need to sharpen their act too, reporting something the next day is too late (assuming somebody could attend at the time) and a lot have no idea of regos/car descriptions etc and in any case 'don't want to get involved' until after the event when they stand around saying "I knew this would happen, 'THEY' should have done something about it".... :mad:
How about when you do report this type of behaviour to the police and they don't DO anything. Description of car, time and place are not enough, they need a rego no. As said car was speeding down our quiet residential street with no lights on at 11pm , pray tell me how am I supposed to get that info- stand in the middle of the road with a torch???

[Lou Girardin]

How about when you do report this type of behaviour to the police and they don't DO anything. Description of car, time and place are not enough, they need a rego no. As said car was speeding down our quiet residential street with no lights on at 11pm , pray tell me how am I supposed to get that info- stand in the middle of the road with a torch???

Try standing at the side of the road with a brick. More effective than any *555 call.

[MSTRS]

Try standing at the side of the road with a brick. More effective than any *555 call.
Vigilanteism (sp)? I LOVE THAT IDEA.

[yungatart]

Try standing at the side of the road with a brick. More effective than any *555 call.
Love it! Only problem is I don't have a brick.... but I could use my cell phone-its not so tiny!!

[MSTRS]

This illustrates perfectly that there is FUCK ALL that we can do about it.
Tonight's paper reports that as a crowd of young people watched the car being removed from the tree, that some of them went to some lengths to brag to police about how fast they drove their cars (that is, not how fast the police drive, but the teenagers). NOTHING will get thru to this sort of knuckledragger.

[spudchucka]

How about when you do report this type of behaviour to the police and they don't DO anything. Description of car, time and place are not enough, they need a rego no.
Minor details like registration numbers make all the difference. I couldn't count the number of well meaning people that report bad driving and give a description as being a blue car with shiny wheels, or something similar to that.

Comms: Ten one units, in the course of your patrols be on the look out for a blue car with chrome wheels, report of bad driving on Such&Such Street, time delay of fifteen minutes, nil rego, only description as being a blue car with shiny wheels, direction of travel towards BlahBlah Street.

Cops: Copy, we'll keep a look out for a blue car. Hey theres one now, and another, shit they're everywhere. Ahhhh, K-1 comms, ten three.

[yungatart]

That brick is looking like the only option then...

[Pixie]

I fell off the couch tonight when the moron media said that the occupants weren't wearing seatbelts.
How could they tell?
They had enough trouble identifying the make of car.
As if it would make a difference in a car that went sideways into a tree at 130kph, and then did a good impression of a sunbeam mixmaster.
The comment apparently came from the police;
I can't just see it...
"They weren't wearing seatbelts" said Officer Porky.
And to prove that,however unlikely something might be,nothing is impossible.
He flaps his wings,kicks off with his trotters,and with a little oink,flies off into the distance.

[James Deuce]

This illustrates perfectly that there is FUCK ALL that we can do about it.
Tonight's paper reports that as a crowd of young people watched the car being removed from the tree, that some of them went to some lengths to brag to police about how fast they drove their cars (that is, not how fast the police drive, but the teenagers). NOTHING will get thru to this sort of knuckledragger.

Yup. You have to start with your own kids, as I know you've done, right from birth. Attitude is everything. I had the privilege of teaching drums to a young man (he was 14 when he started lessons) who avoided all the standard attitudinal issues teenage blokes go through. The reason? Swift discipline from his Dad, a fantastic bloke, and at the time I met them a just retired NZ Army Major. Every time he stepped out of line, or was disrespectful he was reeled in, irrespective of situation or social accepotibility. His boundaries were clearly defined, and by 15 he was a rational thinker with an understanding of consequences and the rewards of hard work. One of the fvew pupils I've had who practiced most of the time, and never lied to me about NOT having practiced.

DIscipline is everything. Discipline is not whacking people. Discipline is the strength of character to respond appropriately to a difficult situation. It requires training to be effective. Parents are the trainers in this case. or not.

[Dafe]

I'm not concerned about the CC ratings or weight restrictions etc. I like the idea of introducing compulsory insurance.
A 16 year old insuring a 2001 WRX at $6000 a year.
A 16 year old insuring a 1978 Triumph 2500 at $200 a year.

And to make sure parents don't insure it for their children......
Insurance policies need to declare drivers under 25 years old.
To insure a driver aged 16, as a named driver under their parents insurance policy - driving a 2001 WRX, will cost........ $6000 a year!

Also - I like the European approach to licencing, I can't remember which country does this, Switzerland maybe.
16 years old - Moped Learner.
17 Years old - Moped with Pillion.
18 Year old - High powered Moped Learner.
19 Year old - High Powered Moped & Pillion
20 Year Old - Full Licence

Time to get rid of Labour and the crap policies and get some proactive parties involved - Change is Good!

[scumdog]

I fell off the couch tonight when the moron media said that the occupants weren't wearing seatbelts.
How could they tell?
They had enough trouble identifying the make of car.
As if it would make a difference in a car that went sideways into a tree at 130kph, and then did a good impression of a sunbeam mixmaster.
The comment apparently came from the police;
I can't just see it...
"They weren't wearing seatbelts" said Officer Porky.
And to prove that,however unlikely something might be,nothing is impossible.
He flaps his wings,kicks off with his trotters,and with a little oink,flies off into the distance.

The point being NOT that they would have survived the crash if wearing belts but the fact they were not wearing them ergo may have got through a lesser crash (had it occurred) with less injury had they been wearing seatbelts.

Stop trolling or start thinking. Or both

[Lou Girardin]

The point being NOT that they would have survived the crash if wearing belts but the fact they were not wearing them ergo may have got through a lesser crash (had it occurred) with less injury had they been wearing seatbelts.

Stop trolling or start thinking. Or both

No Scumdog, the police spooksman said that "none of the occupants were wearing seatbelts, there may have been more survivors if they had".
He couldn't have had a close look at the car. The tree and power pole had intruded from one side of the passenger cabin to the other. The miracle was that 2 survived.
Maybe the cops they interview on TV should have a quick refresher training in commonsense.
Either that, or get over this fixation with speed and seatbelts.

[spudchucka]

The point being NOT that they would have survived the crash if wearing belts but the fact they were not wearing them ergo may have got through a lesser crash (had it occurred) with less injury had they been wearing seatbelts.

Stop trolling or start thinking. Or both
The fact that two of the six survived the crash without seat belts would lead me to wonder whether others may have survived if seat belts were worn.


I fell off the couch tonight when the moron media said that the occupants weren't wearing seatbelts.
How could they tell?

Pixie obviously hasn't cleaned up too many bodies in the morgue or he would be able to answer that stupid question himself. There are always quite overt signs of seatbelt wearage. Not to mention the crash inspectors have tricky little methods of knowing such things.

Anyway, the post is a troll and just an opportunity for him to crack his sorry porky pig, flying pig jokes that give him some form of gratification.

[MSTRS]

Yup. You have to start with your own kids, as I know you've done, right from birth. Attitude is everything. I had the privilege of teaching drums to a young man (he was 14 when he started lessons) who avoided all the standard attitudinal issues teenage blokes go through. The reason? Swift discipline from his Dad, a fantastic bloke, and at the time I met them a just retired NZ Army Major. Every time he stepped out of line, or was disrespectful he was reeled in, irrespective of situation or social accepotibility. His boundaries were clearly defined, and by 15 he was a rational thinker with an understanding of consequences and the rewards of hard work. One of the fvew pupils I've had who practiced most of the time, and never lied to me about NOT having practiced.

DIscipline is everything. Discipline is not whacking people. Discipline is the strength of character to respond appropriately to a difficult situation. It requires training to be effective. Parents are the trainers in this case. or not.
You are quite right. It all starts in the home. The proof is out there.

[Ixion]

... There are always quite overt signs of seatbelt wearage. Not to mention the crash inspectors have tricky little methods of knowing such things.

..

Presumably, one give away would be if the seat belts were nicely retracted.

[Ixion]

I'm not concerned about the CC ratings or weight restrictions etc. I like the idea of introducing compulsory insurance.
A 16 year old insuring a 2001 WRX at $6000 a year.
A 16 year old insuring a 1978 Triumph 2500 at $200 a year.

And to make sure parents don't insure it for their children......
Insurance policies need to declare drivers under 25 years old.
To insure a driver aged 16, as a named driver under their parents insurance policy - driving a 2001 WRX, will cost........ $6000 a year!

Also - I like the European approach to licencing, I can't remember which country does this, Switzerland maybe.
16 years old - Moped Learner.
17 Years old - Moped with Pillion.
18 Year old - High powered Moped Learner.
19 Year old - High Powered Moped & Pillion
20 Year Old - Full Licence

Time to get rid of Labour and the crap policies and get some proactive parties involved - Change is Good!


There is much failure of understanding about suggestions to introduce compulsory incurance. As far as I am aware the only proposal is compulsory THIRD PARTY insurance. I do not think that any country makes full insurance compulsory. Since third party only covers the cost of damage you do to SOMEONE ELSE'S property, the value of your own car is irrelevant. Insurance companies may charge extra for drivers with high powered cars, or extra for young drivers, on the basis that they are more likely to have accidents in general, but the differential is unlikely to be great.

Moreover, there are all sorts of problems with trying to use such an approach to driver control.

What is to stop the young driver insuring the car in Mum's name. Yes, certainly that may mean that the insurance will be invalid in the event of a crash, but so what. He doesn't have any now anyway. And such substitution would not be a crime (or, at any rate, to make it one would involve a very major redefinition of the role of insurance companies). Or cars insured under company names.

And what about a young driver who owns two cars , a safe old one, and a high powered one.

Or the driver who modifies a car. Yes, he should notify the insurance company and if doesn't his insurance will not pay out. So what, he does not care, all he wants is the certificate of insurance. The modification will not be discovered until he has an accident , and he knows he is not going to have one.

If the government cannot enforce a law restricting vehicle power for certain drivers, I fail to see how passing that responsibility to insurance companies solves the problem.

I consider all these calls for compulsary insurance are just part of the general beat up of old people on young people. Old people hate seeing young people with fast cars, because it reminds them (the oldies) of what they no longer are. The olds have become grey boring and tedious and hate youff for not being thus.

[MSTRS]

Old people hate seeing young people with fast cars, because it reminds them (the oldies) of what they no longer are. The olds have become grey boring and tedious and hate youff for not being thus.
I don't know about anyone else, but my vehicles are all faster, sleeker & more powerful then anything I rode/drove as a callow youth. It's just that I now have a better understanding of the laws of physics and would like to pass that on.
Yea I know, experience is the greatest teacher and all that, but I'd be failing myself if I didn't try.

[spudchucka]

Yea I know, experience is the greatest teacher and all that, but I'd be failing myself if I didn't try.
The sad part in all of this is that it took the experience of losing four of their mates to teach the friends of the dead kids the lesson that older heads have been trying to convince the younger heads of all along.

The kids within the circle of influence of the dead ones will never forget this. When they grow older and have their own kids they will preach to them the danger of fooling around in cars. Their kids no doubt will think mum or dad is just a crusty old fool who doesn't know how to have fun anymore, just like the kids do now.

[yungatart]

The sad part in all of this is that it took the experience of losing four of their mates to teach the friends of the dead kids the lesson that older heads have been trying to convince the younger heads of all along.

The kids within the circle of influence of the dead ones will never forget this. When they grow older and have their own kids they will preach to them the danger of fooling around in cars. Their kids no doubt will think mum or dad is just a crusty old fool who doesn't know how to have fun anymore, just like the kids do now.
Aaah- beg to differ! Those same friends and associates of the deceased were out racing around Hastings on Ssaturday night- only 24 hours later, seems they forgot the lesson real quick.

[Lou Girardin]

There is much failure of understanding about suggestions to introduce compulsory incurance. As far as I am aware the only proposal is compulsory THIRD PARTY insurance. I do not think that any country makes full insurance compulsory. Since third party only covers the cost of damage you do to SOMEONE ELSE'S property, the value of your own car is irrelevant. Insurance companies may charge extra for drivers with high powered cars, or extra for young drivers, on the basis that they are more likely to have accidents in general, but the differential is unlikely to be great.
.

In the UK, the cost of 3rd party insurance has a huge effect on the ability of youngsters to buy cars or bikes.
If you're young and want a litre bike or car with GTi, WRX, EVO in the name, forget it. Unless you are wealthy or course.
In Addition, the insurance there runs with the car. Not the driver.

[Lou Girardin]

Aaah- beg to differ! Those same friends and associates of the deceased were out racing around Hastings on Ssaturday night- only 24 hours later, seems they forgot the lesson real quick.

And the 4 dead kids lost ANOTHER mate 2 weeks before in a road accident.

[Ixion]

In the UK, the cost of 3rd party insurance has a huge effect on the ability of youngsters to buy cars or bikes.
If you're young and want a litre bike or car with GTi, WRX, EVO in the name, forget it. Unless you are wealthy or course.
In Addition, the insurance there runs with the car. Not the driver.

That is because of the third party personal injury component in the UK. That is what the insurance companies fear, a claim for millions of pounds because someone is left crippled for life.

We don't have that component in NZ because of our ACC. So the most the insurance company could be up for is damage to a third party car or maybe a house . Relatively small change.

So we can't compare the NZ and UK experiences, our ACC legislation takes the "sting" out of it. That is why we don't have compulsory third party at present.

We used to have compulsory third party years ago before ACC was introduced. You had to nominate an insurer from a list when you registered your car. They dropped it when ACC came in.

[mstriumph]

Surely not!! [there are MUCH better reasons to hate them for than THAT lol] :rofl:
...................................
Old people hate seeing young people with fast cars, because it reminds them (the oldies) of what they no longer are. The olds have become grey boring and tedious and hate youff for not being thus.

[HDTboy]

If insurance was compulsory, wouldn't the insurance companies put the prices up? Like the petrol companies do.
Power to weight restrictions would be sensible until 17 year old Gavin comes up to a corner in his 2L VL commode, and still doesn't have the skills needed to get the heavy POS around without spinning it.
NZ drivers are shit. I see examples of it every day, wether I'm in a car, walking, or on a bike.
I feel that people should have to pass their restricted bike licence before becoming eligible to sit the learner car licence test.

PS. Saw you letter in the herald today Lou.

[feistyredhead]

they put the engine restrictions on the bikes for the learners and all that, but what about cars and the jap imports that go like hell with hardly any engine size! they should get the age up, insurance sorted and the engine ratings sorted...till then get the coffins and the tissues ready. :nono:

[HDTboy]

My 250 goes faster than almost every car I've driven (and I've driven some seriously quick cars) or been in, and it's easier to hurt/kill myself with.
Power to weight restrictions have their merits, but they're not a cure-all.
Insurance is a financial decision and should not be compulsory in my opinion

[scumdog]

My 250 goes faster than almost every car I've driven (and I've driven some seriously quick cars) or been in, and it's easier to hurt/kill myself with.
Power to weight restrictions have their merits, but they're not a cure-all.
Insurance is a financial decision and should not be compulsory in my opinion

No offence man but you obviously have not been in many fast cars, maybe the 0-50kph time in a 250 is good but I've got a couple of cars that will out-do it from there to 230kph+.

Still, enjoy your 250!

[anhrefn]

Maybe just sitting back and letting the future users of the road just get there lisence why not make driving ed and instruction manditory? My Partner just got her car lisence and well rather than start a war at home I paid to get her driving lessons (still growing back the arms and legs but was worth it........... I hope). But yeah loosing track of where I was, why not place a restriction on a learners lisence by using the power to weight ratio of a vehicle rather than its motor size?

[scumdog]

Maybe just sitting back and letting the future users of the road just get there lisence why not make driving ed and instruction manditory? My Partner just got her car lisence and well rather than start a war at home I paid to get her driving lessons (still growing back the arms and legs but was worth it........... I hope). But yeah loosing track of where I was, why not place a restriction on a learners lisence by using the power to weight ratio of a vehicle rather than its motor size?

Good idea BUT it is just like present restictions, it's not until you are stopped by Police that these restrictions become aparent.

IF the penalties were more severe (vehicle siezure etc ) then MAYBE it may have an effect on how Learner and Restricted drivers behave when it comes to their licence status.

At the moment they don't give a fat rats arse.

[Timber020]

Third party insurance would only protect the law abiding, you think that the boy racers that are willing to seriously flout the law would all of a sudden start paying for insurance? Or would they just avoid wofs, reg and try to outrun the cops in there pocket rockets?

ALL Insurance rates would skyrocket. Look at what they have to pay overseas, its a crime what the insurance co's hang people for.

Young guys and cars are a deadly mix, always have been, always will be. You can make the faster cars illegal, you can increase the driving age (which will just completely screw over country kids) but 98% of cars made today can do over 150kmph. Little will change

[Jeremy]

I'm not concerned about the CC ratings or weight restrictions etc. I like the idea of introducing compulsory insurance.
A 16 year old insuring a 2001 WRX at $6000 a year.
A 16 year old insuring a 1978 Triumph 2500 at $200 a year.

And to make sure parents don't insure it for their children......
Insurance policies need to declare drivers under 25 years old.
To insure a driver aged 16, as a named driver under their parents insurance policy - driving a 2001 WRX, will cost........ $6000 a year!

Also - I like the European approach to licencing, I can't remember which country does this, Switzerland maybe.
16 years old - Moped Learner.
17 Years old - Moped with Pillion.
18 Year old - High powered Moped Learner.
19 Year old - High Powered Moped & Pillion
20 Year Old - Full Licence

Time to get rid of Labour and the crap policies and get some proactive parties involved - Change is Good!

That's very nice except one problem. I'd have to wait another 2 years before I'd be able to get to Uni in a reasonable time.

Anyway third party insurance doesn't change anything, all that it means is that people with money can afford any car they want. If you don't have money then you can't. Nothing's changed. And a Toyota corolla is dirt cheap even with insurance and it'll quite happily do over 130km/h.

Also you could take it one step further. Modern cars capable of higher speeds should be much safer than older cars capable of lower speeds. Which might explain the reduction over time of driver deaths as a percentage compared to population. Thus you want young people in the safest cars possible, which are going to be the newer faster ones.

And finally do you remember the "7x more likely to be involved in a crash causing injury" claim on the tv? Well I checked it out using the data available on the LTSA website. Do you want to know how they get it?

Well here's how, they take the people injured data NOT the people injured while the driver is aged between x years. So what it means is that it includes teenagers killed regardless of the driver age. So the claim is true but it's also fairly useless.

[MSTRS]

Also you could take it one step further. Modern cars capable of higher speeds should be much safer than older cars capable of lower speeds. Which might explain the reduction over time of driver deaths as a percentage compared to population. Thus you want young people in the safest cars possible, which are going to be the newer faster ones.

And finally do you remember the "7x more likely to be involved in a crash causing injury" claim on the tv? Well I checked it out using the data available on the LTSA website. Do you want to know how they get it?

Well here's how, they take the people injured data NOT the people injured while the driver is aged between x years. So what it means is that it includes teenagers killed regardless of the driver age. So the claim is true but it's also fairly useless.
Sorry - have to say it. When you have a few more years under your belt, you will realise that you are talking through a hole in your arse.

[spudchucka]

Third party insurance would only protect the law abiding, you think that the boy racers that are willing to seriously flout the law would all of a sudden start paying for insurance?
Thats why a counter measure such as compulsary insurance needs to be backed up with a power to seize vehicles that aren't insured. Even in the case of runners, you would only need to identify the car by rego and then seek a warrant to go around and lift the car at a later date.

No insurance should equal no right to use the road and no right to possess a motor vehicle untill the bucket of bolts is insured.

[Sniper]

Thats why a counter measure such as compulsary insurance needs to be backed up with a power to seize vehicles that aren't insured. Even in the case of runners, you would only need to identify the car by rego and then seek a warrant to go around and lift the car at a later date.

No insurance should equal no right to use the road and no right to possess a motor vehicle untill the bucket of bolts is insured.

Im with Spud here.

[Lou Girardin]

Just to add to the debate.
Professor Isler from the University of Waikato is doing his thesis on young drivers. Research has shown that the frontal lobes of teenagers brains aren't fully developed at 15 - 18 years. This area controls risk assessment and risk management among other things. As well as this their eye control is also not fully developed.
So they may not even see a hazard, when they do they may not realise it's a hazard and if they do realise the problem,they may not react correctly.
They can be trained to function better, but the training is fairly intensive. Far more than any driving test offers.
Raising the age is the only sure remedy for these issues.
Now that the issue has been raised again, all the anti's are coming out of the woodwork including Federated farmers, who killed the last proposal to raise the age in '98.
Parents who think their kids are safer in a car than catching a bus. That was proved in Hastings!
All I can say is that Aussie kids manage somehow without driving.
I guess it's not just the kids that think it can't happen to them.

[pete376403]

I got my licence at 15 (as did most of my mates at college) in 1968. No restrictions on this licence, no curfews, no provisional, no learner or anything else. By modern standards we mid-teens should have been dying like flies. However to drive was another thing altogether. Cars were expensive back then, even old shitboxes. No parent would ever have given a kid money to buy a car, and access to the family car (which in my case was a Humber 90) was very rare. I'm on the side of restricting the power of the car kids can drive, rather than making them wait longer to drive.

[MSTRS]

Cars were expensive back then, even old shitboxes. No parent would ever have given a kid money to buy a car, and access to the family car (which in my case was a Humber 90) was very rare.
Mostly for sure. In those days the average new car cost more than the average annual wage/salary and to buy one, you needed 'overseas funds' (whatever that meant). Was also the reason that used cars cost more by comparison to today.
If you could get finance, it was usually at least 1/3 deposit & 20% interest.

[scumdog]

Im with Spud here.


Me too.

How can this NOT be fair??

[Ixion]

Thats why a counter measure such as compulsary insurance needs to be backed up with a power to seize vehicles that aren't insured. Even in the case of runners, you would only need to identify the car by rego and then seek a warrant to go around and lift the car at a later date.

No insurance should equal no right to use the road and no right to possess a motor vehicle untill the bucket of bolts is insured.

Insurance in NZ goes with the car not the driver (ie you insure your CAR). This is the essence of the insurance argument. But what if the car is insured in Dad's name ? How are you going to deal with that in a roadside stop (assuming dad has 'all drivers", or has named darling son)

And if you adopt the UK idea of insuring the driver, then you have lost the "he's got a fast car " linkage.Insurance premium will just be based on history and age generally. Young drivers pay more, but the model of car doesn't come into it.

So you'd have to have a "insure THIS driver for THIS car " deal. And then , what about that driver driving another car ? Like a work vehicle. Like Mum's very slow and safe car (with her aboard ?) . Or a rental car.

Insurance is to provide a cushion against the adverse financial effects of a crash . Trying to use it to control behaviour is a perversion.

If the legislators think that certain drivers should not drive certain cars then they should pass a law accordingly. Not leave it to private companies. There is no reason at all why the law could not say "Under 25, restricted to x cc". Just as it similarly does for bikes. Stop the car, check license, OK, is car over x cc ?.

Why do you assume that rich people are automatically going to be good drivers ? Isn't part of this the "Damn rich asian kids coming here and buying expensive cars !" gripe. If daddy up in hong Kong can pay $50000 to buy darling son a Supra, why will he cavil at a few thousand a year to insure it?

Does having lots of money make you a good driver ?

What about tourists and those on overseas licenses? Will they have to arrange insurance too ?

Moreover, have you thought of other effects. Remember it won't only be the despised youth that are affected. What about older drivers ? "Oh, too old". Want to bet that insurers won't simply load horrendous premiums onto ALL fast cars, no matter who drives them. And as for those dangerous motorcycles, price THEM right off the road.

Be VERY VERY careful what you wish for . You may just get it and wish you hadn't.

And I've yet to see any real evidence, that taking all into account, young people are bad drivers. Lots of emotional bleating and highly naff statistics, but no evidence. Most I see do very well, and are a damn sight more courteous than some of the oldies.Some may lack experience and their sociability means that if things go wrong there are more people involved. But I don't think they deserve the bad mouthing they're getting.

[justsomeguy]

Ixion, you talk like someone who never did a bit of hooning when he was young.:nono:
The thing with younger people is that they do not consider or think about the consequences of their actions. It's not that they are bad or evil just that such thinking is not usually part of their psyche.

Also I am sick of the media and the rest of the PC brigade busy advocating the speed kills misnomer.

Speed does not kill, inability to control the vehicle at whatever speed kills.

If the kids were doing 200kmph in a 30k zone, managed to stick to their side of the road, slowed and stopped they would still be getting drunk somewhere at this point instead of being 6ft under.

How many deaths per "fast riders only" rides do we have here???

[HDTboy]

Ixion, you talk like someone who never did a bit of hooning when he was young.:nono:
Ixions post made perfect sense to me, and I've done my fair share of hooning, and still consider myself young. In fact what he's said put into words what I've been thinking better than I could do myself.

[SPman]

Ixions post made perfect sense to me, and I've done my fair share of hooning, and still consider myself young. In fact what he's said put into words what I've been thinking better than I could do myself.
Me too . . . .
Personally, after 40 years of this same old crap - car full of young people crashes at speed killing most aboard, I dont think it matters what you do, apart from prohibiting all people under the age of 90 from driving.
There always have been young guys (normally)whose ego outstrips their ability, wiping out themselves and sundry others, and, in one way, shape or form, there always will be.
All the pious, self interested, posturing by society, politicians, and well meaning lookers-on will not change this. All it provides is another potential lever by one group of citizens to obtain an advantage over another group - nothing is really changed!
If its not cars, it was horses, or any other form of transport you could think of.
Its not nice, but, its fucking life. You cannot protect everyone, everywhere, all of the time, from actions that may harm themselves or others, and until society as a whole grows up and realises that among life there is death, its all fucking pointless!

[NordieBoy]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit

Wonder how many people around him have had near misses/crashes though.

[Brian d marge]

Heres an Idea ..what about making training fun ...ie cheap and it good fun so you want to go back again and again,,,,

Ruapuna ,,, skid pans, tyre smoking '( doesnt sound right does it ) ...and mixed in with all that is how to read and predict traffic ..just exactly like advanced driving..open weeknights till 7pm from 3,,,and cheap to

taught car control ....( Just like peter brock ) advanced driving ,,,,makes driving easier ,,,AND you can huss ( is that the word ) up a few tyres ...Plenty of them from the wreckers!!

all for I dont know $30 ?? ( what can you average teenager afford these days .... ( my after school job paid emmm $15 ,,,a few years back:devil2:

Just a thought

Stephen
If they did one for bikes I would be there every day .....:rofl:

[pete376403]

Govt (or LTSA) has officially nixed the idea of advanced driver training in any form. Whichever department it was said that it (adv training) would encourage people to take risks or drive fast or summat like that.

[Hitcher]

Govt (or LTSA) has officially nixed the idea of advanced driver training in any form. Whichever department it was said that it (adv training) would encourage people to take risks or drive fast or summat like that.
Another decision based on high-quality empirical evidence...

[Lou Girardin]

20 dead kids in around three months makes the "kids will be kids" argument a little moot.
If someone helps a young driver to circumvent restrictions they deserve whatever penalty they get.
But, the first thing that needs to be done to improve road safety is to clean out the LTNZ and Police traffic safety bosses and start afresh.

[mstriumph]

Anyone else seen this? http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2005_07_31/story_1460.asp..... is it feasible? [obviously not on a bike ..... lol]

[Jeremy]

Anyone else seen this? http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2005_07_31/story_1460.asp..... is it feasible? [obviously not on a bike ..... lol]

Of course it's feasible. Then have a quick think about what comes next:

1: Why not record everything (that's not hard to do, hardware compression and massive storage media sizes means you could store years worth of driving)

2: Any time the speed limit is broken just broadcast it straight to the police, (really really easy to do)

3: Why not just broadcast the position of the vehicle all the time? (gps tracking is wonderful and dirt cheap)

4: Well if it works so well for young people then why not put it in all vehicles.

Anyway I'm going to leave this thread alone now. But I'll leave with one last point. Don't change legislation on events that occur in the media as they are always rare events. No-one reports about the common events and they're the important ones.

[madboy]

Finally I've had time to get through this thread... I don't have any brilliant ideas on stopping young people from dying in cars. Each argument has it's pros and cons. But fact is... young people do stupid shit. If you have the time to read my dribble below, I'll relate a little of my childhood.

I learnt to drive in my parents 1988 and then 1991 Honda Civic 1.5 manual... 66kW. I spun it on the motorway one day just after I'd got my license back from my first disqualification and rooted both ends on the barriers aquaplaning at about 90km/h, because that was under the speed limit so must be safe. Another time (aged 18 or so) I found it was enormous fun to get it into a 4 wheel drift through a series of corners until I f***ed it up and rolled it onto it's side. Funnily enough, my turbocharged 1988 Sigma GSRX (my first car) was at home cos I couldn't afford gas for it. Friday and Sat nights were spent baiting the pigs into a chase, and in those days a Sigma had the edge, so of course, shortly thereafter I had to sell the Sigma cos I got disq again for demerits. I promptly told the cop to go f*** herself and climbed in the car and got chased home. This is how I know the police don't back out at 180km/h in a 50 zone at 5.30pm on a Friday evening. Oh dear, add 15mths to the 3mth demerits. Luckily a mate was selling his bright red lowered Toyota Sprinter so at least I had something to drive for the 18mths I was disq. Of course, it was registered to my g/f and mates didn't mind me sharing their identities for the four times in 18mths I got stopped.

Many years later when I was up for my third disq (demerit points again), I was long past the idea of getting caught for driving disq, so I bought a nice nondescript looking car (no Evo/WRX wanky bits hanging out) and it just so happened to be a black Mazda Familia sedan... with a 1.8 turbo and some wanky bits, more than capable of doing a runner when required. Ironically, I never needed to because I fluked 3 months without getting stopped. Then two weeks later I did, and got busted, but that's another story.

And those are but a few of the highlights.

Now I've had a lot of driving experience, driven above average kays until recent years, and I've done a bit of racing too. Up until I settled down a couple years back, I was pretty damn good at driving really really fast. I didn't take some of the extreme risks that many dumb f***s do (never was into cutting blind corners), and I guess that goes some way to explaining why I'm still here.

But do you know the real reason why I'm still here? L U C K

CC rating didn't stop me crashing. Horsepower didn't either (fastest car I ever had was a Lancer with 200kw+ at the wheels that I never ever even scratched, and that included racing it). Education didn't - I knew how to control a car, I knew the risks. But they were never going to happen to me. Why? Cos they just weren't.

It's not until you lose that attitude that you stop doing stupid shit... and if you do stupid shit it's just like a lotto ticket... odds of winning (or dying) are slim, but it happens to a punter or two every week.

[Ixion]

Of course it's feasible. Then have a quick think about what comes next:

1: Why not record everything (that's not hard to do, hardware compression and massive storage media sizes means you could store years worth of driving)

2: Any time the speed limit is broken just broadcast it straight to the police, (really really easy to do)

3: Why not just broadcast the position of the vehicle all the time? (gps tracking is wonderful and dirt cheap)

4: Well if it works so well for young people then why not put it in all vehicles.

Anyway I'm going to leave this thread alone now. But I'll leave with one last point. Don't change legislation on events that occur in the media as they are always rare events. No-one reports about the common events and they're the important ones.


Believe the man. Be very careful of demanding restrictions on other people, for you may find that you too are other people.

[Ixion]

..
But do you know the real reason why I'm still here? L U C K

CC rating didn't stop me crashing. Horsepower didn't either (fastest car I ever had was a Lancer with 200kw+ at the wheels that I never ever even scratched, and that included racing it). Education didn't - I knew how to control a car, I knew the risks. But they were never going to happen to me. Why? Cos they just weren't.

It's not until you lose that attitude that you stop doing stupid shit... and if you do stupid shit it's just like a lotto ticket... odds of winning (or dying) are slim, but it happens to a punter or two every week.

That's true enough. A lot of it is just blind luck. I've known of people die in trivial, piffling crashes (bike and car), at little more than walking speed, that you wouldn't believe anyone could be hurt at all. And others walk away from total devastation , at highly illegal speed, that you'd swear nothing could live through, with hardly a scratch.

And I've had my fair share of incidents where by all the rules I should have crashed. But I didn't, not because of skill, not because I was riding/driving a slow bike/car, not because of training or education, but just because of blind dumb luck. I was lucky, don't know why, didn't deserve it , some people aren't.

End of the day, riding a bike is dangerous. So is driving a car, you're propelling a ton or so of metal at high speeds and going along with it. It's dangerous, and sometimes someone is going to run out of luck.

Anyone who can't live with the fact that being on the road, or their kids being on the road,carries with it a possibility of dying, needs to think whether they should be there at all. It's never going to be guaranteed safe, and demanding all sorts of restrictions (only on OTHER people of course) isn't going to make it so.

[NotaGoth]

You ban young'ns from driving certain cars.. their still gonna drive them.. what are they gonna do???? take their licence off them? they'll be back on the road driving the same car in no time.

then what are they gonna do? take their cars off them..? they'll be driving another one in no time.. i mean how many people out there are driving with no licence.. or a disqualified licence???

restrict the CC rating and hope like crazy they won't try and attempt to reach speeds above 100kmph in it? they are still gonna reach those speeds.. just means you have to push your car more.. so that to me is silly talk

so tell me.. why do they make cars that go over 100kmph if thats the speed limit..?

wasn't there something on the tv a while ago going on about how a teenagers brains aren't developed enough for them to be able to make appropriate judgements..? and that it isn't developed fully until they hit their 20's? I forgot what it was about..

next thing you know they'll be trying to ban people from driving until they hit their 20's.. it can;t happen! some people do have to drive themselves to work.. specially those in rural areas with no forms of public transport..

restrict passengers and their still gonna have passengers in the cars with them..

how about inforcing higher panalties for younger people who are breaking the rules..?

its just never ending..

*theresa*

[NotaGoth]

End of the day, riding a bike is dangerous. So is driving a car, you're propelling a ton or so of metal at high speeds and going along with it. It's dangerous, and sometimes someone is going to run out of luck.

Anyone who can't live with the fact that being on the road, or their kids being on the road,carries with it a possibility of dying, needs to think whether they should be there at all. It's never going to be guaranteed safe, and demanding all sorts of restrictions (only on OTHER people of course) isn't going to make it so.

*giveZ* you a cookie and *PatZ* your head

I totally agree with that. :)

*theresa*

[NotaGoth]

But they were never going to happen to me. Why? Cos they just weren't.

It's not until you lose that attitude that you stop doing stupid shit... and if you do stupid shit it's just like a lotto ticket... odds of winning (or dying) are slim, but it happens to a punter or two every week.

It usually takes an accident or near miss for people to change their way of thinking..

Sadly they may not be around...

[MSTRS]

Finally I've had time to get through this thread... I don't have any brilliant ideas on stopping young people from dying in cars. Each argument has it's pros and cons. But fact is... young people do stupid shit.

But do you know the real reason why I'm still here? L U C K

CC rating didn't stop me crashing. Horsepower didn't either (fastest car I ever had was a Lancer with 200kw+ at the wheels that I never ever even scratched, and that included racing it). Education didn't - I knew how to control a car, I knew the risks. But they were never going to happen to me. Why? Cos they just weren't.

It's not until you lose that attitude that you stop doing stupid shit... and if you do stupid shit it's just like a lotto ticket... odds of winning (or dying) are slim, but it happens to a punter or two every week.
Mostly I agree with what you are saying. But we still need to search for more ways to minimise the tragic outcomes which are so common.


wasn't there something on the tv a while ago going on about how a teenagers brains aren't developed enough for them to be able to make appropriate judgements..? and that it isn't developed fully until they hit their 20's? I forgot what it was about..

Yep - was talking about the area of the brain that deals with risk assessment.