Electric race bikes?

[GSVR]

We don't like them because they don't make noise, are too slow and are no fun to ride.

The batteries go flat and take forever to charge up.

They cost way to much and no real motorcycle manufacturers are even considering making them.


I've got all this right haven't I?

[crazy man]

you said it :violin:and l will remind you of that

[tigertim20]

We don't like them because they don't make noise, are too slow and are no fun to ride.

The batteries go flat and take forever to charge up.

They cost way to much and no real motorcycle manufacturers are even considering making them.


I've got all this right haven't I?

I like the noise aspect, however slow? not very. and not fun to ride? the have pretty much 100% torque from zero rpm, how would that not be fun?

I would like to take one for a spin to see what theyre all about, but I love the noise and smell and feeling of a petrol powered sportsbike

[tigertim20]

actually heres a not slow electric bike - lapped the IOM TT at almost 100mph - a fair ways off the record of 13x.xxmph, but still not that slow
http://www.iomtt.com/News/2010/06/07/Unofficial-lap-record-of-over-94mph-in-TT-Zero-practice-session.aspx

[crazy man]

I like the noise aspect, however slow? not very. and not fun to ride? the have pretty much 100% torque from zero rpm, how would that not be fun?

I would like to take one for a spin to see what theyre all about, but I love the noise and smell and feeling of a petrol powered sportsbikeyou are like a fly in his webb lol:no:

[manxkiwi]

In three or so weeks I believe we will see an over 100mph lap at the TT on one of these bikes. Likely over 170mph on Sulby straight too! Rutter did 150mph last year and was 'holding back'!

I suspect you're fishing? But these bikes are awesome. They may not be the answer in long run, but they're learning a lot. These bikes will (I reckon) be a stepping stone towards the future.

I was half way down Bray Hill last year for the electric race. I thought, 'they won't have all that much speed up by the time they get here'. How very wrong I was!!

[CHOPPA]

Id like an light electric mx style bike like the KTM freeride so I could ride it at the BMX tracks haha

[gixerracer]

Id like an light electric mx style bike like the KTM freeride so I could ride it at the BMX tracks haha

That freeride thing would be wicked I have always wanted to ride on a lovely rolling golf course and that would be just the toy:shit:

[bogan]

That freeride thing would be wicked I have always wanted to ride on a lovely rolling golf course and that would be just the toy:shit:

This man's a thinker! Strap a golf bat to the back and call it a golf cart :yes: they're generally electric too I think.

[GSVR]

In three or so weeks I believe we will see an over 100mph lap at the TT on one of these bikes. Likely over 170mph on Sulby straight too! Rutter did 150mph last year and was 'holding back'!

I suspect you're fishing? But these bikes are awesome. They may not be the answer in long run, but they're learning a lot. These bikes will (I reckon) be a stepping stone towards the future.

I was half way down Bray Hill last year for the electric race. I thought, 'they won't have all that much speed up by the time they get here'. How very wrong I was!!

This year its going to be how many go over 100mph. Exciting times ahead must be hundreds out there building stuff. Just not many in NZ.

http://www.isleofman.com/News/sports/article.aspx?article=45097

John McGinness wants a slice of the action.
Interesting the voltage at 370 volts that gotta have a bit of snot.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/mugen-honda-tt-zero-bike/

Monster Tajima preparing an electric race car for the 2012 Pike's
www.gizmag.com/monster-tajima-electric-pikes-peak-bev/22119/

[Dave-]

Also the process of removing the lithium from the ground is stupidly dangerous and damaging to the environment, then the processing, and then they only last 10 or so years....oh and there's less of it than crude.

hydrogen is cool :D 3 times more energy! imagine a 600 putting out 300hp

[Aristocat]

We don't like them because they don't make noise, are too slow and are no fun to ride.

The batteries go flat and take forever to charge up.

They cost way to much and no real motorcycle manufacturers are even considering making them.


I've got all this right haven't I?

Pretty much spot on the money GSVR, in terms of bikes available to us in NZ.

Yes, there are some quick (for electric) bikes at the TT etc, which go well for what they are, and some look cool too.

But no serious NZ road/race enthusiast will currently choose an electric bike.

Are they slower then their petrol counterparts? Yes.

Are they more expensive and difficult to build? Yes.

Is there a lively race scene with lots of competitors? No.

Is there a massive set-up and after-market parts scene? No.

Don't believe me? Check this out - <a href=http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260271> a pretty clued-up guy trying to do the electric thing in Australia</A>

Seriously - The guy is a genius but the you-tubes of his 'racing' make the current MotoGP races look exciting. Personally - I'd have stuck with the engine his R1 originally came with.

[Dave-]

Are they more expensive and difficult to build? Yes.

I'm not defending electric motorcycles here, but I think you're wrong...kind of.

how is a single moving part difficult to build?

the trickiest part of an electric vehicle is the controller....and that's not much more than a maths equation and some good heat sinks.

[wharfy]

I'm not defending electric motorcycles here, but I think you're wrong...kind of.

how is a single moving part difficult to build?

the trickiest part of an electric vehicle is the controller....and that's not much more than a maths equation and some good heat sinks.

I AM defending electric motorcycles here - It is only a matter of time - the trickiest thing is the batteries - but with all the battery powered devices in use now they are improving at a tremendous rate.
Who can remember the first cell phones ? The first one I saw in commercial use (ironically by a cabling contractor) had a battery only slightly smaller than a car battery. It looked like a WWII field radio !!
All the major auto manufacturers now have electric cars in their plans, some even have them for sale :)

I wouldn't mind one of these to commute on :)

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/mavizens-130-mph-ttx02-electric-motorcycle-runs-on-linux.html

[crazy man]

you got back fast on your gas burning bike gsvr:headbang:

[GSVR]

you got back fast on your gas burning bike gsvr:headbang:

GSVR is out back wrapped in plastic. Luckily the logon is automatic so i can assume the online identity of this one of whom you speak.

************************************************** *******************

Well you don't often see technology developed on bikes being sold to car makers but I see an announcement yesterday that MotoCzycz has secured a 27 million dollar contract to supply drive units.

http://www.sustainablebusinessoregon.com/articles/2012/05/brazilian-company-taps-motoczysz-for.html

Stay tuned to the IOMTT in around 10 days time when one of the greatest showdowns in motorcycle development going to take place.

Team Talkup

[manxkiwi]

There's a DVD out called Charge. It's included in extras of Closer to the Edge and available on its own.

One comment one of the racers said made me take note: He said because you don't have all that noise and vibration going on, you can really feel and hear what the bike and tyres are doing. He said he felt much more in touch with the chassis and tyres than on a normal engined bike.

It's probably something you would never think about unless you experienced it yourself, or heard about it, as in the DVD. Quite interesting I thought.

[bogan]

There's a DVD out called Charge. It's included in extras of Closer to the Edge and available on its own.

One comment one of the racers said made me take note: He said because you don't have all that noise and vibration going on, you can really feel and hear what the bike and tyres are doing. He said he felt much more in touch with the chassis and tyres than on a normal engined bike.

It's probably something you would never think about unless you experienced it yourself, or heard about it, as in the DVD. Quite interesting I thought.

Website says its not available in NZ :( Looks well worth a watch though.

[Dave-]

I AM defending electric motorcycles here - It is only a matter of time - the trickiest thing is the batteries - but with all the battery powered devices in use now they are improving at a tremendous rate.
Who can remember the first cell phones ? The first one I saw in commercial use (ironically by a cabling contractor) had a battery only slightly smaller than a car battery. It looked like a WWII field radio !!
All the major auto manufacturers now have electric cars in their plans, some even have them for sale :)

I wouldn't mind one of these to commute on :)

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/mavizens-130-mph-ttx02-electric-motorcycle-runs-on-linux.html

No it's impossible, stop defending EV now.

There isn't enough lithium to go around, unless you start smashing all sorts of conservation laws.

Unless we start mining asteroids! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/apr/24/tech-tycoons-asteroid-mining-venture)

But seriously we'll run out of lithium first.

Hydrogen > Lithium.

[manxkiwi]

Website says its not available in NZ :( Looks well worth a watch though.

You can get it from Duke on their website, free worldwide delivery. But you may as well get the Closer to the edge DVD, it has the full feature in the extras. I see it's going for $16 or $18 now in JB. Stupidly cheap for a great DVD.

[bogan]

You can get it from Duke on their website, free worldwide delivery. But you may as well get the Closer to the edge DVD, it has the full feature in the extras. I see it's going for $16 or $18 now in JB. Stupidly cheap for a great DVD.

JB = jb high-fi? Their website says 50 bucks, would def be a goer if it was under 20!

[GSVR]

There's a DVD out called Charge. It's included in extras of Closer to the Edge and available on its own.

Cool seen the trailers and wanted to see the whole thing.


Like the bit in the trailer where the guy says something like:
"People come to see hard men racing hard bikes not this battery scrap!"

[GSVR]

No it's impossible, stop defending EV now.

There isn't enough lithium to go around, unless you start smashing all sorts of conservation laws.

Unless we start mining asteroids! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/apr/24/tech-tycoons-asteroid-mining-venture)

But seriously we'll run out of lithium first.

Hydrogen > Lithium.


What about Sodium? Isn't that whats salts made of and theres a lot of that around right?


Seriously I think the biggest worry is China has all the rare earths to make decent magnets and they sound like they want to control the export. Kinda like the middle east with oil until the west sorted them out!

[crazy man]

This is the TT it is recognised through out the world , people have come to see hard men race hard motor bikes not piss about on battery powered scrap!!:lol:

[manxkiwi]

JB = jb high-fi? Their website says 50 bucks, would def be a goer if it was under 20!

Yeah man. Last months catalogue had it at $18. Go into a store and see what price is on it. Ask for a company discount too. You'd be surprised, sometimes gets you a good discount! It's 16 pounds from Duke, but deff. under $20 recently at JB.

[Dave-]

What about Sodium? Isn't that whats salts made of and theres a lot of that around right?


Seriously I think the biggest worry is China has all the rare earths to make decent magnets and they sound like they want to control the export. Kinda like the middle east with oil until the west sorted them out!

Salt is Sodium Chloride, NaCl, Salt doesnt explode when you put it in water...

also sodium based batterys operate at about 320 deg cel, which is hardly practical, might as well boil water and use a steam engine!

I love how the west sorted out the east, I love paying over $2 a litre....

I also did some other maths last night, 4 million registeres cars on NZ roads, most E-cars are 30kwh and last about 200km, which means we'd need 120GWh of power every 200kms, Tiwai point uses 610MW at peak, which is 15% of New Zealands total power which ought to be about 4GW, so we'd need 30x more power than we have to power our cars for 200km, and turn nothing else on. haha this becomes more and more retarded the more I think about it.

I wonder how much lithium we'd need for 4 million cars, and whether that amount even exists.

I have no idea what rare earth magnets have to do with EV's (aside from the motor) but whatever dude, yeah go ahead and build an E-bike, more petrol for me.

[GSVR]

Salt is Sodium Chloride, NaCl, Salt doesnt explode when you put it in water...

The reason for mentioning Sodium is there plenty of it and the process of extracting pure Sodium (element) for Sodium Chloride (compound) is not difficult. But you'd already know this...

Theres a huge company in the US working to solve the Sodium battery issues and have made remarkable headway.

Potassium chemistry has some advantages over lithium so its only time till the batteries of whatever chemistry get to be more the adequate.


Not going to even bother replying to the rest as every post of yours seems like your agitated and have some axe to grind on the subject of electric vehicles.

Shit back it the seventies the oil was running out but forty years down the road...

Capitalism is all about getting the best bottom line no matter what your selling.

[bogan]

Salt is Sodium Chloride, NaCl, Salt doesnt explode when you put it in water...

also sodium based batterys operate at about 320 deg cel, which is hardly practical, might as well boil water and use a steam engine!

I love how the west sorted out the east, I love paying over $2 a litre....

I also did some other maths last night, 4 million registeres cars on NZ roads, most E-cars are 30kwh and last about 200km, which means we'd need 120GWh of power every 200kms, Tiwai point uses 610MW at peak, which is 15% of New Zealands total power which ought to be about 4GW, so we'd need 30x more power than we have to power our cars for 200km, and turn nothing else on. haha this becomes more and more retarded the more I think about it.

I wonder how much lithium we'd need for 4 million cars, and whether that amount even exists.

I have no idea what rare earth magnets have to do with EV's (aside from the motor) but whatever dude, yeah go ahead and build an E-bike, more petrol for me.

Well apparently the average distance is 15,000km per year; or 41km per day, which would be around 6kwh. Which is a 250W average over 24hrs, but its even better because they can charge faster during the night, which is better for the grid. Dunno about you, but I currently have electronics plugged in using more than 250W.
To scale up, 250W x 4 million cars is 1GW, so we only need to increase our power production by 25% to remove our dependence on oil for transport. Hell, we could just import the cheapest shittiest oil for about 20% the cost, then burn it in a turbine power plant and charge up all the electrics!

[crazy man]

Not going to even bother replying to the rest as every post of yours seems like your agitated and have some axe to grind on the subject of electric vehicles.

but you did say this lmao (Electric race bikes?
We don't like them because they don't make noise, are too slow and are no fun to ride.

The batteries go flat and take forever to charge up.

They cost way to much and no real motorcycle manufacturers are even considering making them.

[Dave-]

Well apparently the average distance is 15,000km per year; or 41km per day, which would be around 6kwh. Which is a 250W average over 24hrs, but its even better because they can charge faster during the night, which is better for the grid. Dunno about you, but I currently have electronics plugged in using more than 250W.
To scale up, 250W x 4 million cars is 1GW, so we only need to increase our power production by 25% to remove our dependence on oil for transport. Hell, we could just import the cheapest shittiest oil for about 20% the cost, then burn it in a turbine power plant and charge up all the electrics!

bit impractical though dont you think?

[bogan]

bit impractical though dont you think?

Ok, you're right, its far more practical to just bury our heads in the sand and leave the oil supply problem for another day :facepalm: And with the dropping fuel prices, electrics will never be cheaper to run :rolleyes:

[wharfy]

No it's impossible, stop defending EV now.

There isn't enough lithium to go around, unless you start smashing all sorts of conservation laws.

Unless we start mining asteroids! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/apr/24/tech-tycoons-asteroid-mining-venture)

But seriously we'll run out of lithium first.

Hydrogen > Lithium.

Well then I guess some other technology will have to be developed to store the electricity :)
A lot of smart people are working in this shit !
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/carbon-nanotubes-produce-electricity
Or maybe just ditch the batteries altogether :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transmission

[Dave-]

Ok, you're right, its far more practical to just bury our heads in the sand and leave the oil supply problem for another day :facepalm: And with the dropping fuel prices, electrics will never be cheaper to run :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, we do need to do something but electricity is not the way....unless....


Well then I guess some other technology will have to be developed to store the electricity :)
A lot of smart people are working in this shit !
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/carbon-nanotubes-produce-electricity
Or maybe just ditch the batteries altogether :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transmission

...unless....you manage to convince someone to fund research into breaking fundamental laws of physics! (see above for examples - actually that article is very cute, 3000 kelvins haha reminds me of JIGGAWATTS!)

But seriously electricity just moves the pollutant from the car to the energy provider, plus there's the extraction and processesing of whatever battery you guys wish to link on wikipedia so you're no better off. However with hydrogen, a system could be invented (and a lot of money could be made) to convert current petroleum cars to hydrogen, plus you reduce the emissions to 0 all we just need to find a catalyst so the electrolosis of water would be easier.

And incase you feel this has strayed off topic a wee bit, an electric race bike is not feasible as no one in the larger industry would support it, and it'd get its ass kicked by an H2 bike.

[bogan]

The hydrogen engine conversion cost is a non-argument from a global point of view, as the vehicle fleet production and turnover is so quick the spread of a beneficial technology would be fast enough to keep petrol prices down for the rest of us during the transition period.

Also, where do you expect the power to for hydrogen electrolysis to come from? and subsequently waste 3/4 of it due to ICE inefficiencies...

I wonder what the industries would support if they started a race where the only tech limitation was energy contained in the 'tank' at the start of the race?

[Dave-]

The hydrogen engine conversion cost is a non-argument from a global point of view, as the vehicle fleet production and turnover is so quick the spread of a beneficial technology would be fast enough to keep petrol prices down for the rest of us during the transition period.

Also, where do you expect the power to for hydrogen electrolysis to come from? and subsequently waste 3/4 of it due to ICE inefficiencies...

I wonder what the industries would support if they started a race where the only tech limitation was energy contained in the 'tank' at the start of the race?

Is the turn over really that high? I'm probably trying for change too fast, expecting the petrol station to one day simply not have gas. haha

the inefficiency of electrolosis is a nuisance, granted, but I did mention a catalyst, there's groups out there (much like the battery buddies) who are trying to find a solution to that and are also making good headway.

I just feel putting our resources into researching electricity is silly when hydrogen offers so much more without a huge change to the industy.

on the topic of an energy race, 24 hours of le man has more or less turned into that, obviously the team who stops the least has an upper hand, some fascinating tech going into those cars.

[bogan]

Average age of vehicles is around 10years I think. So not an overnight change, but quick enough to be in line with the adoption of that sort of technology anyway.

The efficiency of electrolysis is a whole other issue, I was referring to the inefficient way you proposed it is used. The average car is 25-30% fuel efficient, which I assume would not change if you just do a hydrogen fuel conversion. Add in the 50-80% hydrogen generation efficiency, and you get 12-20% overall energy efficiency. Against about 70-80% for battery electrics; and you said battery EVs would place a strain on the power grid :rolleyes:

Does the 24hr have a fuel limit? I thought it was just pitting strategy, which is more about fuel energy density than the energy amount.

[Dave-]

Average age of vehicles is around 10years I think. So not an overnight change, but quick enough to be in line with the adoption of that sort of technology anyway.

The efficiency of electrolysis is a whole other issue, I was referring to the inefficient way you proposed it is used. The average car is 25-30% fuel efficient, which I assume would not change if you just do a hydrogen fuel conversion. Add in the 50-80% hydrogen generation efficiency, and you get 12-20% overall energy efficiency. Against about 70-80% for battery electrics; and you said battery EVs would place a strain on the power grid :rolleyes:

Does the 24hr have a fuel limit? I thought it was just pitting strategy, which is more about fuel energy density than the energy amount.

10 years would be crazy fast too, both my cars are 20+ years, bike is 4 years haha but im a poor student so hardly at the peak of the normal distribution.

I dont know which way the efficiency of the engine would go, could be more efficient cause the fuel density is ~18 times higher, but that could be balanced by the heavier engine components one would need to support combustion with 3 times the energy, I'd love to take a big fat chevvy block, tip it upside down, remove the sump and feed hydrogen up through the carburettors, see how long she goes before the heads explode....or it backfires and my garage get blown to pieces.

I don't offer hydrogen as 'better' but as a more sustainable alternative, it seems wiser to use water, there's a lot of it! and it doesnt damage the water by taking it apart and putting it back together again.

I dont know what official FIA regulations for le man is, but it is a pitting strategy, but the cars are also suppose to be aimed towards being economical.

[bogan]

I dont know which way the efficiency of the engine would go, could be more efficient cause the fuel density is ~18 times higher, but that could be balanced by the heavier engine components one would need to support combustion with 3 times the energy, I'd love to take a big fat chevvy block, tip it upside down, remove the sump and feed hydrogen up through the carburettors, see how long she goes before the heads explode....or it backfires and my garage get blown to pieces.

Heavier engine components? Sounds a like a lot more work than a simple fuel conversion.

I'm all for exploring other solutions, but you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs arsehole. It looks to me like:

Its less efficient to generate, and requires chemical catalysts to do so even then, so not completely green.
High conversion cost for existing vehicles.
Inefficient to use in any ICE vehicle, and will always be so; and harder to put in regen braking too.
Difficult/dangerous to store/transport, often having chemicals used in this as well; and energy required to compress, or cool it also.

I think resources are better used trying to recycle used batteries, or come up with new types of batteries or supercaps, or even room temp superconductors. Electrical energy stored as such, just seems like a more direct, and better approach to focus on.

[Dave-]

Heavier engine components? Sounds a like a lot more work than a simple fuel conversion.

I'm all for exploring other solutions, but you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs arsehole. It looks to me like:

Its less efficient to generate, and requires chemical catalysts to do so even then, so not completely green.
High conversion cost for existing vehicles.
Inefficient to use in any ICE vehicle, and will always be so; and harder to put in regen braking too.
Difficult/dangerous to store/transport, often having chemicals used in this as well; and energy required to compress, or cool it also.

I think resources are better used trying to recycle used batteries, or come up with new types of batteries or supercaps, or even room temp superconductors. Electrical energy stored as such, just seems like a more direct, and better approach to focus on.

oh :P I'll leave the calcs up the mech boys.

ironically I'm electrical/computer engineering, there's probably a lot of money in taking advantage of other peoples misconeptions on EV's huh....

GO EV! should we start a thread discussing an E-Superbike for 2013 nationals?