Comment on Commis corner

[Yow Ling]

Quoting Graeme Billington


Post no.1

I have noticed since the tragic and needless loss of Mark Brehaut last weekend at Manfeild,A thread has started regarding how easy it is to get a race licence in NZ,While I agree(and have done so for sometime)its far too easy to obtain one,MNZ are already formulating a process for testing for a licence,However,While that is a positive step going forward,We need to do something to address the problem in the immediate future,After talking to a number of club and MNZ officials as well as a number of top level riders,I decided to implement some changes at the coalface so to speak,These include as an example a zero tolerance approach to those competitors that infringe in the area of safety,EG:If you pass under a static yellow flag = Instant $100 fine,If you pass under a waved yellow flag = instant exclusion and $500 fine,If you don't remove your machine from the track when disabled at the earliest and safest possible opportunity =$500 fine and instant exclusion,These are just examples and not necessarily what will be handed out on the day,But be forewarned,There are going too be swiftly excecuted consequences if you breach a safety rule.


At first look at the title I thought the communists were taking over, who really knows.

As a kneejerk reaction to a recent racing fatality, it looks like there will be fines for some safety things

$100 for passing under yellow, $500 for passing under waved yellow, $500 for not removing your disabled bike quickly enough

While Im not against things that could help me live longer, wouldnt a better approach be some education ?

When is it safe enough to remove your bike from the track? Isnt that what the flaggies are for to manage an incident, will riders be expected to take more risks to avoid being fined? While the intention is good, i think this could do with alot of discussion first.

Passing under flags with fines I dont oppose, enforcment and evidence may be an issue.

[gixerracer]

Quoting Graeme Billington

"Post no.1

I have noticed since the tragic and needless loss of Mark Brehaut last weekend at Manfeild,A thread has started regarding how easy it is to get a race licence in NZ,While I agree(and have done so for sometime)its far too easy to obtain one,MNZ are already formulating a process for testing for a licence,However,While that is a positive step going forward,We need to do something to address the problem in the immediate future,After talking to a number of club and MNZ officials as well as a number of top level riders,I decided to implement some changes at the coalface so to speak,These include as an example a zero tolerance approach to those competitors that infringe in the area of safety,EG:If you pass under a static yellow flag = Instant $100 fine,If you pass under a waved yellow flag = instant exclusion and $500 fine,If you don't remove your machine from the track when disabled at the earliest and safest possible opportunity =$500 fine and instant exclusion,These are just examples and not necessarily what will be handed out on the day,But be forewarned,There are going too be swiftly excecuted consequences if you breach a safety rule. "

end quote
At first look at the title I thought the communists were taking over, who really knows.

As a kneejerk reaction to a recent racing fatality, it looks like there will be fines for some safety things

$100 for passing under yellow, $500 for passing under waved yellow, $500 for not removing your disabled bike quickly enough

While Im not against things that could help me live longer, wouldnt a better approach be some education ?

When is it safe enough to remove your bike from the track? Isnt that what the flaggies are for to manage an incident, will riders be expected to take more risks to avoid being fined? While the intention is good, i think this could do with alot of discussion first.

Passing under flags with fines I dont oppose, enforcment and evidence may be an issue.

Education is the only answer finning people for doing stupid shit will not save lives!

[nsrpaul]

education is only answer
An important thing to remember with fines is that the "offending" has already taken place so the risks have not been eliminated to that point

[wharfy]

I'm afraid I don't believe anyone except a court should be able to impose fines.
Maybe I would agree to have it in my contract if I was a professional sportsman getting big bucks like Rugby League or tennis players.

[Sarah311]

Education is the only answer finning people for doing stupid shit will not save lives!

I was passed by two bikes under waved yellow entering Dunlop, as a bike was having a lie down at the exit - nobody did anything about that. It was part of the briefing in the morning... So the education that occurs before every round is only as sucessful as the brains uptaking it - or not!

Waved yellow, be aware - and no passing.... unless you can get away with it?

[Grumph]

I'm afraid I don't believe anyone except a court should be able to impose fines.
Maybe I would agree to have it in my contract if I was a professional sportsman getting big bucks like Rugby League or tennis players.

Go read the rulebook - fines for a wide range of infringements have been in place for decades....and by taking out an MNZ licence you've agreed to abide by the rules and accept the penalties.

[Kickaha]

I was passed by two bikes under waved yellow entering Dunlop, as a bike was having a lie down at the exit - nobody did anything about that.

Did you go and speak to a steward about it?

[GSVR]

Did you go and speak to a steward about it?

Without video evidence its one riders account against anothers.

Andrew Stroud lost a NZ Superbike Title for passing under a yellow.

Best way to stop the practice of passing under yellow is issue them with zero points for the race or send them home if thats not going to hurt.

Fines only hurt the poor.

[CHOPPA]

I think if they make stupid decision like a dangerous swerve into pit lane then they should be excluded from the rest of the meeting maybe not a fine

I have always had a couple of issues with Yellow flags....

1, The yellow flag is displayed on warm up laps to display the flag points but it would be ridiculous to expect everybody to follow the slowest guy around for the whole warm up lap. You would end up with a mass race start on the second lap of practice and we usually only get 3 laps of practice so effectively we loose 33% of practice. The other problem I have is that how do you differentiate between a crash and a display on that first lap? Most of the time I come around and the bloody flag marshalls are still holding the yellows out on my second lap of practice. A blue flag should be held out to mark there position

2, It is too dangerous for a group of leading riders to slow down to the speed of a back marker that has slowed his pace even more when you come to a stationary yellow. You should be allowed to pass lapped riders under a stationary yellow. This is what happens anyway. Imagine a front pack of riders lapping 10 secs quicker just coming into a yellow zone under brakes the back marker is braking from a slower speed, we cant stop that quick and if we do try to stop that quick we will crash. It might seem like a rear possibility but it often happens that way. Then to think we have to follow for 1/4 of a lap at that pace even after the accident area because there is no passing untill you get to the next flag point? It doesnt happen

3, Often a yellow flag is held out for no bloody reason! It end up like the boy who cried wolf. The flaggies need better training too

[jellywrestler]

I've commentated at the last two bike races at Manfeild, PMCC and Vic club and noticed there are quite different methods of riding after crossing the line most notably one who stopped racing and started celebrating their place 15 metres before the line meaning the following rider had to take evasive action. Others are grabbing the brakes as soon as they've gone across again creating a risk so this area also needs a bit of a mention. It is not an issue with ANY of the clubs it is something that is across the board so food for thought.

I don't envy anyone dishing out fines, we can't even get some people to display decent numbers.......

[CHOPPA]

I've commentated at the last two bike races at Manfeild, PMCC and Vic club and noticed there are quite different methods of riding after crossing the line most notably one who stopped racing and started celebrating their place 15 metres before the line meaning the following rider had to take evasive action. Others are grabbing the brakes as soon as they've gone across again creating a risk so this area also needs a bit of a mention. It is not an issue with ANY of the clubs it is something that is across the board so food for thought.

I don't envy anyone dishing out fines, we can't even get some people to display decent numbers.......


There just needs to be a harder line. If your numbers or bike are not up to it you dont go on the track. If you know you can get away with it then.... Maybe some descresion if the numbers were damaged and the bikes getting fixed up for race 2 but not at the start of the day.

In ozzy they are so strict. If you dont do something right your not racing. If you do manage to get out on track you will get your points stipped when you return for post race inspection. All bikes are held for 10 minutes after the race

There could be warning for riders that slam on brakes at the finish or do stupid things.

You cant fix stupidity though. How many times do you get told to get off the track when you have a problem, every briefing I have been to since that horrible crash at Pukekohe

[wharfy]

Go read the rulebook - fines for a wide range of infringements have been in place for decades....and by taking out an MNZ licence you've agreed to abide by the rules and accept the penalties.

Well I guess I had better not do anything naughty - cause I sure won't be paying any fines...

[MSTRS]

I have always had a couple of issues with Yellow flags....

1, The yellow flag is displayed on warm up laps to display the flag points but it would be ridiculous to expect everybody to follow the slowest guy around for the whole warm up lap. You would end up with a mass race start on the second lap of practice and we usually only get 3 laps of practice so effectively we loose 33% of practice. The other problem I have is that how do you differentiate between a crash and a display on that first lap? Most of the time I come around and the bloody flag marshalls are still holding the yellows out on my second lap of practice. A blue flag should be held out to mark there position

2, It is too dangerous for a group of leading riders to slow down to the speed of a back marker that has slowed his pace even more when you come to a stationary yellow. You should be allowed to pass lapped riders under a stationary yellow. This is what happens anyway. Imagine a front pack of riders lapping 10 secs quicker just coming into a yellow zone under brakes the back marker is braking from a slower speed, we cant stop that quick and if we do try to stop that quick we will crash. It might seem like a rear possibility but it often happens that way. Then to think we have to follow for 1/4 of a lap at that pace even after the accident area because there is no passing untill you get to the next flag point? It doesnt happen

3, Often a yellow flag is held out for no bloody reason! It end up like the boy who cried wolf. The flaggies need better training too

As an experienced marshal, I can answer some of the above...

1. Held yellow on first lap of practice. Is to indicate flag points for riders. IF an incident occurs at any point, the yellow will then be waved to indicate a problem. As for 'lead' bike/s seeing a held yellow for a second lap...perhaps you could talk to those riders who take their sweet time getting on track. Those riders 'need' to see the flags points too, which is why it is often out for so long. When riders are late out at the start of a race, they are held to a pitlane start...can't do that on practice/scrub.

2. Flaggies radio in DELIBERATE overtaking. We understand the faster bike can't always avoid passing a slow/back marker, and we use our discretion and make a judgement call as to whether the passing is 'illegal'.

3. As a rider, you may not be aware of everything trackside. Yellows are NOT held out un-necessarily. And flaggies at PMCC + VMCC meets know what they are doing (I can't speak for other clubs as I don't flag for them). The yellow is put out by the flaggie, but race control instruct on when to pull it in. - flaggies don't decide that one.

[Maido]

I think if they make stupid decision like a dangerous swerve into pit lane then they should be excluded from the rest of the meeting maybe not a fine

I have always had a couple of issues with Yellow flags....

1, The yellow flag is displayed on warm up laps to display the flag points but it would be ridiculous to expect everybody to follow the slowest guy around for the whole warm up lap. You would end up with a mass race start on the second lap of practice and we usually only get 3 laps of practice so effectively we loose 33% of practice. The other problem I have is that how do you differentiate between a crash and a display on that first lap? Most of the time I come around and the bloody flag marshalls are still holding the yellows out on my second lap of practice. A blue flag should be held out to mark there position

2, It is too dangerous for a group of leading riders to slow down to the speed of a back marker that has slowed his pace even more when you come to a stationary yellow. You should be allowed to pass lapped riders under a stationary yellow. This is what happens anyway. Imagine a front pack of riders lapping 10 secs quicker just coming into a yellow zone under brakes the back marker is braking from a slower speed, we cant stop that quick and if we do try to stop that quick we will crash. It might seem like a rear possibility but it often happens that way. Then to think we have to follow for 1/4 of a lap at that pace even after the accident area because there is no passing untill you get to the next flag point? It doesnt happen

3, Often a yellow flag is held out for no bloody reason! It end up like the boy who cried wolf. The flaggies need better training too

Exactly my sentiments. I got growled at at Teretonga round for passing on the warm up lap. There was no way I was going to toodle around cooling my tyres off when I knew that I had to belt into turn one the following lap.

But then again, practice is only practice, its not like you are at race pace......

[CHOPPA]

As an experienced marshal, I can answer some of the above...

1. Held yellow on first lap of practice.

2. Flaggies radio in DELIBERATE overtaking. We understand the faster bike can't always avoid passing a slow/back marker, and we use our discretion and make a judgement call as to whether the passing is 'illegal'.

.

So if the lead rider gets to a pack of back markers as the yellow comes out he can pass them and speed of at his safe pace while his competitors have to wait? Opens the door for a protest there... My proposal would be that under a stationary yellow you can pass a lapped rider but not under a waved yellow


Exactly my sentiments. I got growled at at Teretonga round for passing on the warm up lap. There was no way I was going to toodle around cooling my tyres off when I knew that I had to belt into turn one the following lap.

But then again, practice is only practice, its not like you are at race pace......

But when is practice ever just practice? Practice/Qualifying.... (I realise your being sarcastic lol)

[Tony.OK]

Well of the 20 ppl that did my online quiz it seems a good proportion don't read the rules.

What does a YELLOW flag mean when held Stationary? (this one IMO needs clarification, possibly updating for different circumstances)

a-Slow down, proceed with caution, no overtaking until danger is passed--------14=70%
b-Carry on but use caution----------------------------------------------------6= 30%
c-Only overtake if track is clear----------------------------------------------- 0= 0%
d-Slow down and return to pit area--------------------------------------------0= 0%
The answer in MNZ rules is "A"

What chapter will you find the FLAG rules in the online MNZ rules?

4...............1==5%
8...............2==10%
6...............11=55%
2...............5==25%
This answer is "6"..............so either ppl arent answering properly or alot are guessing

[MSTRS]

So if the lead rider gets to a pack of back markers as the yellow comes out he can pass them and speed of at his safe pace while his competitors have to wait? Opens the door for a protest there...


IF the yellow comes out at more-or-less the moment a faster bike reaches a slower one/s, then it is understood that the faster bike is likely to 'coast' past.
IF the faster bike is still under open throttle, it might be looked at differently.
IF the yellow is already out before the slow/fast bikes reach it, and MrFast sails on past the slow bike/s, then Race Control WILL be informed.
As for gaining an advantage over his nearest competitors...luck of proximity and speed differential/s when the yellow comes out. As they say - "That's racing"...

[CHOPPA]

IF the yellow comes out at more-or-less the moment a faster bike reaches a slower one/s, then it is understood that the faster bike is likely to 'coast' past.
IF the faster bike is still under open throttle, it might be looked at differently.
IF the yellow is already out before the slow/fast bikes reach it, and MrFast sails on past the slow bike/s, then Race Control WILL be informed.
As for gaining an advantage over his nearest competitors...luck of proximity and speed differential/s when the yellow comes out. As they say - "That's racing"...

It still doesnt address the safety issue of a pack of riders that have to slow down to the speed of slowing lapped riders in a race situation. The leaders slowing down for a stationary yellow flag is still faster than a back markers full race speed so it is completely safe for them to pass.

What is the penalty for passing under a yellow? If I loose 5 places for slowing under a yellow does everyone get disqualified?

[scott411]

It still doesnt address the safety issue of a pack of riders that have to slow down to the speed of slowing lapped riders in a race situation. The leaders slowing down for a stationary yellow flag is still faster than a back markers full race speed so it is completely safe for them to pass.

What is the penalty for passing under a yellow? If I loose 5 places for slowing under a yellow does everyone get disqualified?

if they pass you on a yellow they should at least get relegated, if not disqualified,

[CHOPPA]

if they pass you on a yellow they should at least get relegated, if not disqualified,

Makes it a bit hard if you go from 1st to 5th. Do they get relagated behind you? If 5 riders pass me under yellow so im 6th then I drop to 7th during the race does that mean I then get 2nd?

I have never seen anyone follow a lapped rider through an entire yellow section in my 20 years of racing

[gixerracer]

It still doesnt address the safety issue of a pack of riders that have to slow down to the speed of slowing lapped riders in a race situation. The leaders slowing down for a stationary yellow flag is still faster than a back markers full race speed so it is completely safe for them to pass.

What is the penalty for passing under a yellow? If I loose 5 places for slowing under a yellow does everyone get disqualified?

Ask Stoudy! it cost him the Nationals I think in 05. It was so obvious when he done it lol problem was Manfeild track in there wisdom had cones for the flag areas and he knew the yellow was out at higgins so made sure he passed big T rees before the cone.
I protested Storudy at Paeroa in for passing a back marker under yellows and I won the protest and they fined him $30 lol. Waste of fucken time:weird:

[MSTRS]

It still doesnt address the safety issue of a pack of riders that have to slow down to the speed of slowing lapped riders in a race situation. The leaders slowing down for a stationary yellow flag is still faster than a back markers full race speed so it is completely safe for them to pass.

What is the penalty for passing under a yellow? If I loose 5 places for slowing under a yellow does everyone get disqualified?

I'm just telling you what is. I don't know or apply the penalties or anything else.
The rules are what they are, they apply to everyone, and are there for safety.
Like all rules, sometimes while fixing one problem, they may create another. I would presume that if the 'new' problem is big enough, then some change to that rule may be looked at.

Rest assured, if I put the yellow flag out just as you're about to pass someone, then I for one won't ping you for doing just that. In fact, the chances are that I won't even see it happen - since I'll still be looking at the reason for the yellow, and have my back to you. But if my yellow is out and you're back near the previous flag point and then pass on my patch - then all bets are off.

[scott411]

Ask Stoudy! it cost him the Nationals I think in 05. It was so obvious when he done it lol problem was Manfeild track in there wisdom had cones for the flag areas and he knew the yellow was out at higgins so made sure he passed big T rees before the cone.
I protested Storudy at Paeroa in for passing a back marker under yellows and I won the protest and they fined him $30 lol. Waste of fucken time:weird:

i remember that he got penalised for it at the endurance race at pukekohe around that time as well, i think it was a 30 sec penalty when he had a 40 sec lead,

I think the problem has been with enforcement, not so much the rule itself, fineing people is not the way to go imo, for passing under a yellow it should be at least 2 postions in the race, and if it is a second or third offense in a year then even more,

as for Choppa's first comment about being able to pass lappers under a staionary yellow, if a lead pack comes up on a lapper and the first guy passes then the person in second is going to want to pass him as well and so on to the whole group, and that i think would be as bad as everybody trying to stop,

[CHOPPA]

Ask Stoudy! it cost him the Nationals I think in 05. It was so obvious when he done it lol problem was Manfeild track in there wisdom had cones for the flag areas and he knew the yellow was out at higgins so made sure he passed big T rees before the cone.
I protested Storudy at Paeroa in for passing a back marker under yellows and I won the protest and they fined him $30 lol. Waste of fucken time:weird:

If he passed before the yellow flag then he shouldnt have got penalised....

[CHOPPA]

i remember that he got penalised for it at the endurance race at pukekohe around that time as well, i think it was a 30 sec penalty when he had a 40 sec lead,

I think the problem has been with enforcement, not so much the rule itself, fineing people is not the way to go imo, for passing under a yellow it should be at least 2 postions in the race, and if it is a second or third offense in a year then even more,

as for Choppa's first comment about being able to pass lappers under a staionary yellow, if a lead pack comes up on a lapper and the first guy passes then the person in second is going to want to pass him as well and so on to the whole group, and that i think would be as bad as everybody trying to stop,

Have you seen that happen Scotty? We both know how it goes... Can you imagine BT follwing someone he is lapping by about lap 4 through an entire yellow flag section from point to point. It aint gonna happen.

[CHOPPA]

What about the sighting lap surely it wouldnt be hard for the marshalls to hold out their blue flags instead of the yellows?

[gixerracer]

If he passed before the yellow flag then he shouldnt have got penalised....

I disagree, at the National round it was clear that Tony (the race leader) slowed down for the yellow flag situation ahead (correct thing to do yea?) as if he braked at his marker aprox where the cone is he would have approached the accident area at maximum racing speed for that corner and would be unable to take the nessecary actions if needed.
And at Paeroa he was just a dick:bleh:

[lukemillar]

One other safety aspect thing which I saw at the VMCC rnd 1 in Posties and probably needs mentioning to riders... When you come into the pits during qualifying or a race (before the end)- stay OFF the racing line!

There were a group of riders who were coming into Dunlop and decided not take the checkered flag for the end of practice/qualifying and come into the pits instead. About 2-3 of us stuck to the outside of the track in Dunlop, but one guy rode round, in the middle of the track with 1 arm up doing about 50kph. If anyone had still been on a hot lap and entered that corner, they would have had to taken evasive action to avoid the slow rider. It should really be re-iterated that if you aren't riding at pace on a hot track, then stay off the racing line.

[CHOPPA]

i remember that he got penalised for it at the endurance race at pukekohe around that time as well, i think it was a 30 sec penalty when he had a 40 sec lead,

I think the problem has been with enforcement, not so much the rule itself, fineing people is not the way to go imo, for passing under a yellow it should be at least 2 postions in the race, and if it is a second or third offense in a year then even more,

as for Choppa's first comment about being able to pass lappers under a staionary yellow, if a lead pack comes up on a lapper and the first guy passes then the person in second is going to want to pass him as well and so on to the whole group, and that i think would be as bad as everybody trying to stop,


I would completely agree its enforcement Scotty. I know the rules but I know damn well that if the person in front of me passes the lapper under yellow then he is going to fuck off into the distance while the 3 guys that are right up my ass will prob pass me and the lapper and where am I left in all this without any enforcement of the rules

[scott411]

I would completely agree its enforcement Scotty. I know the rules but I know damn well that if the person in front of me passes the lapper under yellow then he is going to fuck off into the distance while the 3 guys that are right up my ass will prob pass me and the lapper and where am I left in all this without any enforcement of the rules

if it does happen, and the leader gets a two position penalty, and it is known to the riders, i bet you would sit behind the guy and everyone would sit behind you,

I know at Puke MX when i am the steward i have penalised riders for going to fast though yellows and red cross flags, (Incl some of NZ's top riders) after it was known ill penalise anyone who does it I had very few problems, but I did have people complaining about other tracks let it happen, my response was i can not change what they do,

[CHOPPA]

I disagree, at the National round it was clear that Tony (the race leader) slowed down for the yellow flag situation ahead (correct thing to do yea?) as if he braked at his marker aprox where the cone is he would have approached the accident area at maximum racing speed for that corner and would be unable to take the nessecary actions if needed.
And at Paeroa he was just a dick:bleh:

haha maybe he is just focused! He did it at Manfeild at the last Tri Series too lol


One other safety aspect thing which I saw at the VMCC rnd 1 in Posties and probably needs mentioning to riders... When you come into the pits during qualifying or a race (before the end)- stay OFF the racing line!

There were a group of riders who were coming into Dunlop and decided not take the checkered flag for the end of practice/qualifying and come into the pits instead. About 2-3 of us stuck to the outside of the track in Dunlop, but one guy rode round, in the middle of the track with 1 arm up doing about 50kph. If anyone had still been on a hot lap and entered that corner, they would have had to taken evasive action to avoid the slow rider. It should really be re-iterated that if you aren't riding at pace on a hot track, then stay off the racing line.

Yeah that is a real shocker. You should enter the final turn completely on the left hand side and ride right around the outside of the final corner. I almost been taken out there. Im sure most people have and it shouldnt happen I loose it when someone does that

[jellywrestler]

What about the sighting lap surely it wouldnt be hard for the marshalls to hold out their blue flags instead of the yellows?
dead right, get that one away to mnz so it can be discussed at the conference at the weekend choppa, I cringed when I saw a first lap crash at Paeroa and the following riders had no idea, luck saved the day there, no other reason

[lukemillar]

dead right, get that one away to mnz so it can be discussed at the conference at the weekend choppa, I cringed when I saw a first lap crash at Paeroa and the following riders had no idea, luck saved the day there, no other reason

TBH, I like the idea of having green flags at marshall points. I have mentioned this before as they run that system in the UK. They use them at the first clear marshall point after an incident and are taken as a signal that the track is clear and it is save to resume racing. You could apply the same logic on sighting laps i.e Here is a marshall point, and the track is safe and clear. Problem with using blue flags is they then have 2 meanings depending on the situation e.g sighting lap or racing. For clarity, flags should have a single meaning.

[SWERVE]

TBH, I like the idea of having green flags at marshall points. I have mentioned this before as they run that system in the UK. They use them at the first clear marshall point after an incident and are taken as a signal that the track is clear and it is save to resume racing. You could apply the same logic on sighting laps i.e Here is a marshall point, and the track is safe and clear. Problem with using blue flags is they then have 2 meanings depending on the situation e.g sighting lap or racing. For clarity, flags should have a single meaning.

+1
Does take good communication between race control and marshalls.
Europe now using lights controlled by race control in most cases..... Ruapuna is looking at this light system.

[yungatart]

Hmmm....interesting thoughts.
From what I often see, 30% of the time riders don't know what the flags mean, 30% of the time they don't see them, and 30% of the time they ignore them. That leaves 10% of the time where they heed what the poor flaggie is trying to tell them...and then they come and complain to the starter "because you left that flag out too long!"
What's a poor girl to do!

An awful lot of the thoughts on here are actually covered in your riders briefing anyway, it is up to you guys to listen and take notice, rather than chat to your mate making it difficult for others to hear and nigh on impossible for you to hear.

Those calling for harsher penalties will be singing a different tune when they are the ones in receipt of them. Whilst we all want a race meeting to be as safe as possible, you really don't want a Nazi run race meeting, do you?

[MSTRS]

dead right, get that one away to mnz so it can be discussed at the conference at the weekend choppa, I cringed when I saw a first lap crash at Paeroa and the following riders had no idea, luck saved the day there, no other reason

Sighting lap, was it?
As YT says above, use of flags is covered at rider's briefing (at least it is at Vic and Pac meets) so there is no excuse for not knowing what a stationary or waved yellow means.
Perhaps racers need to spend a day every season doing flag marshal duty. If nothing else, they will understand why certain calls are made :bleh:

[speights_bud]

I know its a pain in the arse when you are stuck behind a slow rider that first lap of practice/qualifying. I've sort of used a common sense approach to overtaking, ie entering a straight when safe, note: well before the end of the straight/corner. As said earlier most marshals will call it in if they believe it was an inappropriate manouver.

I think a lot of the time SOME racers aren't even looking for flags.

I've been in races that have been red-flagged and a rider in front of me rode through 2 reds and didn't notice, even when we got back to the pits he didn't know why everyone had pulled off. Admittedly it was a few years ago at a junior level (ie streetstock), but just an example of what i have seen. Perhaps our Junior Riders/License applicants should have to do a written course before obtaining a license. I think there is very little time spent on actually learning the rules and understanding them because naturally we all focus on getting out there and going faster.

That said almost everyone knows the machine specification rules inside out don't they?

[scracha]

Yeah that is a real shocker. You should enter the final turn completely on the left hand side and ride right around the outside of the final corner. I almost been taken out there. Im sure most people have and it shouldnt happen I loose it when someone does that

At Mansfield, that should be repeated in riders briefing. Very fast sweeper so tremendous speed difference. I think it's because many riders tend to tip in early and hug the inside line, so when they are on their exit lap they genuinely think that by being in the middle of that corner that they're off the racing line.

[budda]

There just needs to be a harder line....... In ozzy they are so strict. If you dont do something right your not racing.

Hmmmmmm, wonder how the UberStrict Aussies would handle competitors who deliberately fit "mufflers" they KNOW are too loud, and throw a tanty when they get fronted about it ? Cant be stricter AND more relaxed ............

[budda]

dead right, get that one away to mnz so it can be discussed at the conference at the weekend choppa, I cringed when I saw a first lap crash at Paeroa and the following riders had no idea, luck saved the day there, no other reason

Probably the only sensible use for a Blue Flag .........

[budda]

that said almost everyone knows the machine specification rules inside out don't they?

no .........

[gixerracer]

Hmmmmmm, wonder how the UberStrict Aussies would handle competitors who deliberately fit "mufflers" they KNOW are too loud, and throw a tanty when they get fronted about it ? Cant be stricter AND more relaxed ............

Yet another uninformed comment for a noddy that should no better. Think you will find most of us run the same sytems as the bikes in OZ as kowing they are over the limit as YOU claim how the F k would we know since we dont have our own measuring devices and they hadnt mentioned noise at any meeting in the last god knows how many seasons???

[malcy25]

It still doesnt address the safety issue of a pack of riders that have to slow down to the speed of slowing lapped riders in a race situation. The leaders slowing down for a stationary yellow flag is still faster than a back markers full race speed so it is completely safe for them to pass.

What is the penalty for passing under a yellow? If I loose 5 places for slowing under a yellow does everyone get disqualified?

Chop.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. There is no differentiation in the rule book between passing a lapped rider or someone you are racing with for for a very good reason. It is all to do with safety of all concerned and while you are trying to pass any other bike, you are less likely to see the flag marshall on the track, the broken down bike, the bit that may have come loose and being on the track or close to....

[budda]

Yet another uninformed comment for a noddy that should no better. Think you will find most of us run the same sytems as the bikes in OZ as kowing they are over the limit as YOU claim how the F k would we know since we dont have our own measuring devices and they hadnt mentioned noise at any meeting in the last god knows how many seasons???

Sorry BigEars, didnt realise I had my DocT mask on ........ only as uninformed as all the rest that were actually there. Maybe you didnt see me 'cos the frillybits on your tutu obscured the view. The systems you run are generally legal out of the box, but as HD showed, when they've had a few thousland cubic feet of hot gas through them ALL, the ability to dampen the decibels tapers off.

Lets all agree that HD showed just how tenuous the legality of used and not repacked, even top shelf mufflers are, when climatic conditions turn to less than ideal .... my pitiful attempt at levity was meant to point out the silliness of asking for hard enforcement of rules, "like in Ozzie", when THEY would have put most of your field off the track as the readings were over the limit - the same limit thats been in place for years. The guilty know who they are ......

[SWERVE]

I think a lot of the time SOME racers aren't even looking for flags.

Maybe a test should be mark the flag points on track map..................... see how many are looking then eh.:rolleyes:

[gixerracer]

Sorry BigEars, didnt realise I had my DocT mask on ........ only as uninformed as all the rest that were actually there. Maybe you didnt see me 'cos the frillybits on your tutu obscured the view. The systems you run are generally legal out of the box, but as HD showed, when they've had a few thousland cubic feet of hot gas through them ALL, the ability to dampen the decibels tapers off.

Lets all agree that HD showed just how tenuous the legality of used and not repacked, even top shelf mufflers are, when climatic conditions turn to less than ideal .... my pitiful attempt at levity was meant to point out the silliness of asking for hard enforcement of rules, "like in Ozzie", when THEY would have put most of your field off the track as the readings were over the limit - the same limit thats been in place for years. The guilty know who they are ......

Big fat Budda you implied we all Knowingly put exhaust on that are over the limit which is not the case. As for oztrawlia the exact same thing happened last season for them which is where our idea come from, the teams were going to pack up and go home as was the rest of the classes. We are all for things being sorted but that situation was b bit OTT. As for repacking mufflers think you will find most were done after South Island and with Hampton being the first Big meeting since down South not likely to fix said problem. Main problem is giving people a day glow vest and a title:bleh:

[jellywrestler]

I think a lot of the time SOME racers aren't even looking for flags.

Maybe a test should be mark the flag points on track map..................... see how many are looking then eh.:rolleyes:

you can be a silly old timer sometimes Mervyn, someone should invent an iPhone app then they'll all have it sorted...

[FROSTY]

simple question guys. Do YOU want to be on the racetrack with someone that believes its ok for the rules NOT to apply to them?
Do you want to be on the racetrack with someone that doesn't KNOW even the most basic rules that are in the rulebook?

I don't mean the really specific rules of a class. I mean the main rules of conduct for a rider on the racetrack.

[FROSTY]

Chop.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. There is no differentiation in the rule book between passing a lapped rider or someone you are racing with for for a very good reason. It is all to do with safety of all concerned and while you are trying to pass any other bike, you are less likely to see the flag marshall on the track, the broken down bike, the bit that may have come loose and being on the track or close to....
Actually I'll add to that. The rules apply to everybody for another VERY good reason. The lapped rider has a reasonable expectation that NOONE will be passing him in the "yellow zone" therefore will feel more comfortable taking evasive action around the self same debris etc you are also attempting to get around.


Keeping in mind here folks --even at national level we are spending thousands of dollars chasing a frikkin trophy that you can get made for about $20. So it sure as heck aint worth ending up dead over.
Isn't that it in a nutshell - we ALL want to go home to our loved ones at the end of the day.

[scott411]

simple question guys. Do YOU want to be on the racetrack with someone that believes its ok for the rules NOT to apply to them?
Do you want to be on the racetrack with someone that doesn't KNOW even the most basic rules that are in the rulebook?

I don't mean the really specific rules of a class. I mean the main rules of conduct for a rider on the racetrack.

i have accepted the fact long ago that i race with these type of people, and when you are around someone you do not know, or know is a dipfuck you give them more room, (and some of these riders are long time racers, but you know you can not give them to much room)

riders need to help themselves tho, and if someone passes you on a yellow flag protest, or at least alert the steward and get the person talked to,

now going up and going mental at the person does not make it better, because yelling at people achieves nothing,

[SWERVE]

you can be a silly old timer sometimes Mervyn, someone should invent an iPhone app then they'll all have it sorted...

Yep stuck in the dark ages me.
Most would probebly think a track map was the button you pressed on handlebars when it rained. Should have said the test should be- plot the flag points on your GPS.

[neil_cb125t]

Education is the only answer finning people for doing stupid shit will not save lives!

What he said - $500 to MNZ wont save a life. Racers don't care about bills or having no money, if we did we wouldn't race.

Freak acidents are just that. I hit ernie cudby in the head (after he fell infront of me) less than 24 hours after mark passed, nothing I or ernie could have done to stop it, we were both simply luckier it happened at 90ks instead of double that.

[budda]

Big fat Budda you implied we all Knowingly put exhaust on that are over the limit which is not the case. As for oztrawlia the exact same thing happened last season for them which is where our idea come from, the teams were going to pack up and go home as was the rest of the classes. We are all for things being sorted but that situation was b bit OTT. As for repacking mufflers think you will find most were done after South Island and with Hampton being the first Big meeting since down South not likely to fix said problem. Main problem is giving people a day glow vest and a title:bleh:

Dear Little slim KittyLitterClump - I'm SHOCKED - you meant to tell me the Brains Trust didnt come up with the Tanty tactic all by themselves? My "implication" was aimed at those who DID do exactly that - and you know who they are as well as I do

Anyway, the whole idea of this thread was a discussion on Billys missive regarding the Numpty's among us ......
what is a workable way of weeding these idiots out - seems to me that we never get to realise just how dangerous these guys can be until they've proven it beyond doubt, sadly.

As the Leader has alluded to, MNZ has already been looking at ways of getting on top of the problem - but without being "controlling" ....... we all do this because we ENJOY it, dont want to put the skids under THAT

[Yow Ling]

just getting back to my first post and yellow flags, heres the rule

6.18.2 The following flags will be recognised as the standard colours to be used as signals to riders during a race:
Green: Start
Red: All riders stop racing.
Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.
Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

This rule is unclear "no overtaking untill the danger area is passed" requires a judgment call from the rider, it may well conflict with the flag marshalls opinion on the matter , who is right?

MNZ rules are littered with vauge terms and subject to many interpretations, the red flag rule is explained at every briefing I go to , usually different interpretations apply to different clubs even on the same track.

[MSTRS]

*yellow flag - held or waved*

This rule is unclear "no overtaking until the danger area is passed" requires a judgment call from the rider, it may well conflict with the flag marshal's opinion on the matter , who is right?

MNZ rules are littered with vague terms and subject to many interpretations...

I have always understood that the next flag point to NOT have a flag out is the point where normal racing may recommence.

[Asher]

This rule is unclear "no overtaking untill the danger area is passed" requires a judgment call from the rider, it may well conflict with the flag marshalls opinion on the matter , who is right?


Wouldnt a green flag at the next clear flag point be the obvious solution.

[gixerracer]

I have always understood that the next flag point to NOT have a flag out is the point where normal racing may recommence.

So what your saying is if the race leaders have caught a back marker say going in to the last corner off the back staright at Manfeild and a yellow is out for what ever reason then there is to be no passing untill turn one? Never guna happen

[MSTRS]

Wouldnt a green flag at the next clear flag point be the obvious solution.
It would. I will have a word with TPTB. Just in case they're not reading this thread...


So what your saying is if the race leaders have caught a back marker say going in to the last corner off the back staright at Manfeild and a yellow is out for what ever reason then there is to be no passing untill turn one? Never guna happen

Thought you knew Manfeild quite well?
Starter's box have ALL the flags and Point 1 (at the end of the outside pit wall) has the appropriate flags as well...

Still - it'd be an unlucky rider who got pinged for passing after an incident was behind them.

[Yow Ling]

I have always understood that the next flag point to NOT have a flag out is the point where normal racing may recommence.

That might be your understanding , but is not what the rule says

[MSTRS]

That might be your understanding , but is not what the rule says

Find us the section on flags... http://www.mnz.co.nz/competitionrules.aspx ... I sure can't

[Tony.OK]

Find us the section on flags... http://www.mnz.co.nz/competitionrules.aspx ... I sure can't

Exactly why the rules need updating. Too many important parts seem to be missing. A section specifically for all road racing rules needs to be completed filling in all these gaps.

[DidJit]

Chapter 6 — Conduct of Competitions (http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Chapter_6_Conduct_of_Competitions.pdf) (Page 7 of 9)

[Tony.OK]

Chapter 6 — Conduct of Competitions (http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Chapter_6_Conduct_of_Competitions.pdf) (Page 7 of 9)

Thats only saying what the flags are for really.
Nothing about how long passed the flag do you have to wait till resuming racing etc.................."till danger is passed" means what?

[DidJit]

Sorry, should've included quote from MSTRS “Find us the section on flags...”

[MSTRS]

Thanks DidJit.
And TonyOK is right. The whole thing needs to be re-worked and cleaned up. Some rules need to be reworded to remove any ambiguity (Parliament is not keeping lawyers busy through MNZ, are they?).

[Yow Ling]

Find us the section on flags... http://www.mnz.co.nz/competitionrules.aspx ... I sure can't

My post no 54 included the rule, to find any thing in the rule book is a bit of a challenge , probably why most people cant be arsed with it in the first place

[MSTRS]

My post no 54 included the rule, to find any thing in the rule book is a bit of a challenge , probably why most people cant be arsed with it in the first place

I don't have, and never did, a rule book. So I use the online PDF. I am prolly not unusual in that respect. Problem is - some bits are missing. For instance, for 2+ years the section on race numbers was missing the required size of those numbers. FFS.
We'd get bikes on the track with numbers that were unreadable, and the riders would argue that it didn't matter because of transponders and "Show me where it says in the rules..."

[FROSTY]

My thought was it should be a distance of 50m BEYOND the incident is sufficient. Then It occurred than to quantify in ANY way at all could be cause for massive dummy spitts.--I can see it now,--Ohh my gps tracker said he was on the gas at 40m
For gosh sakes it asks for common sense to be used.
Otherwise sod it all theres an EASY rule that could be introduced. "You are to remain at the slow pace and not pass untill exactly in line (across the track) with a waved green flag.
No room for interpretation there.
But who would want that setup?
If I'm in a pack of bikes having a battle I'd be pretty pissed off if the lead bike or two got past a backmarker and I had to stay at the backmarkers pace for 200m whilst the guys that had got past were at their version of a cruise-so opening the gap for 200m
Flip side of that of course would be that it can work equally for a rider as against them.
How many times have we seen that in car racing. The guys work hard to get a gap and then the pace car means they gap is closed back up again.
The no passing rule as it stands requires riders to actually use common sense

[CHOPPA]

My thought was it should be a distance of 50m BEYOND the incident is sufficient. Then It occurred than to quantify in ANY way at all could be cause for massive dummy spitts.--I can see it now,--Ohh my gps tracker said he was on the gas at 40m
For gosh sakes it asks for common sense to be used.
Otherwise sod it all theres an EASY rule that could be introduced. "You are to remain at the slow pace and not pass untill exactly in line (across the track) with a waved green flag.
No room for interpretation there.
But who would want that setup?
If I'm in a pack of bikes having a battle I'd be pretty pissed off if the lead bike or two got past a backmarker and I had to stay at the backmarkers pace for 200m whilst the guys that had got past were at their version of a cruise-so opening the gap for 200m
Flip side of that of course would be that it can work equally for a rider as against them.
How many times have we seen that in car racing. The guys work hard to get a gap and then the pace car means they gap is closed back up again.
The no passing rule as it stands requires riders to actually use common sense

The ways the rules are at the moment it is up to the rider to determine what the incident is, oh there is a bike off the side of the track there I can get back on the gas oh shit no maybe its that pile up in the next corner....

I think the green flag at the next point is a good idea.

[scott411]

The ways the rules are at the moment it is up to the rider to determine what the incident is, oh there is a bike off the side of the track there I can get back on the gas oh shit no maybe its that pile up in the next corner....

I think the green flag at the next point is a good idea.

how big is the gap to the next flag point tho? at manfield is their a flag marshal point on the exit of Higgens, or is the at the entry to the sweeper, therefore putting the hole back straight out for passing is the green flag rule is in place,

the current rule is not perfect, but the green flag rule may be worse,

[SWERVE]

Frosty you mentioned riders using common sense...................... good luck.
Racing at zero distance at 200+kph isnt exactly a pastime of those rich in common sense..naturally.
Good old common sense is probebly one of the most prized commodities in modern society IMHO

[FROSTY]

I just had an idea that would reduce the stupidity immediately. Have a trophy maker on site with a price list for trophys.
Its easy. If you want a $20 piece of plastic and wood so bad you ignore the most basic rules-we can all chip in and have a trophy made for the guy concerned. Problem solved.
Incidently i'd also suggest said trophy maker has a stock of silver plated dummies for those that spit theirs when what they want is against basic safety standards. :devil2:

I do apreciate that the multi million dollar sponsorship deals and million dollar per race saleries some guys are getting for their racing may be endangered as a result but hey thats life

[FROSTY]

how big is the gap to the next flag point tho? at manfield is their a flag marshal point on the exit of Higgens, or is the at the entry to the sweeper, therefore putting the hole back straight out for passing is the green flag rule is in place,

the current rule is not perfect, but the green flag rule may be worse,
Mate Im just throwing ideas out here for a minute
Ok Yellow flag out -danger signal.
So say yellow goes out at higgins entry. First thing is a green flag at the sweeper untill the higgins situation is sorted then marshal 2 at higgins waves the green at the end of the danger area.

[yungatart]

Mate Im just throwing ideas out here for a minute
Ok Yellow flag out -danger signal.
So say yellow goes out at higgins entry. First thing is a green flag at the sweeper untill the higgins situation is sorted then marshal 2 at higgins waves the green at the end of the danger area.

That assumes there is always 2 marshals per point. Its really hard to get volunteers....

[SWERVE]

That assumes there is always 2 marshals per point. Its really hard to get volunteers....
True........
So hear raises another stumbling block
Payed/fully trained marshalls - 3 per flag point... correct flags/signals at all points= happy riders + safer track etc
But that means entry fees go up as is only fair that people benefiting from service pay. IMHO
Oh no they all cry........... we cant afford higher entries (cos we are all poor and destitute)
Cos lets face it...... we are so hard done by with fees / compared to most...........NOT.

Ok......... let me have it.....:2guns:

[FROSTY]

That assumes there is always 2 marshals per point. Its really hard to get volunteers....
Um I'm sorry if this seems rude but isn't it actually against the rules to run a meeting with marshal points not fully manned/womaned??
happy to be proven wrong.

[FROSTY]

True........
So hear raises another stumbling block
Payed/fully trained marshalls - 3 per flag point... correct flags/signals at all points= happy riders + safer track etc
But that means entry fees go up as is only fair that people benefiting from service pay. IMHO
Oh no they all cry........... we cant afford higher entries (cos we are all poor and destitute)
Cos lets face it...... we are so hard done by with fees / compared to most...........NOT.

Ok......... let me have it.....:2guns:
What are the entry fees nowadays for a vic club meeting? How does it compare to the price of say a motoTT trck day?

[MSTRS]

Um I'm sorry if this seems rude but isn't it actually against the rules to run a meeting with marshal points not fully manned/womaned??


... yes ...

[Yow Ling]

Um I'm sorry if this seems rude but isn't it actually against the rules to run a meeting with marshal points not fully manned/womaned??
happy to be proven wrong.


... yes ...

3.12 The Club/Promoter shall provide a sufficient number of Flag and Track Marshals who must be briefed prior to the start of the first practice.
Flag Marshals: Are marshals appointed to give signals laid down in these rules. Flag Marshals shall occupy posts along the course assigned to them by the Clerk of the Course.
As soon as the meeting commences all Marshals under the orders of the Clerk of the Course to whom he/she shall immediately report by any means at their disposal (telephone, signal, courier, etc.) all incidents and accidents which occur on the section of the course for which he/she is responsible.

So where does it say that? You guys need to stop making up rules to suit your own needs

[SWERVE]

Dont think comparing track days with race days is a fair comparison. With regards to marshalls / etc... as im sure the legislation for these is different in regards to who does what and how many are doing it.
And at end of day track days are just that (a chance to ride a track) with specific levels of competence in each group being the main focus of organisers. Not to mention on track monitors and the ability to stop any session for any reason deemed a saffty issue.

Race days are exactly that..... A RACE.. where every rider (ok almost all) are out there to go as fast as they need to win or better themselves. And the main objective of organiser is to make sure all those riders follow a set of rules that have been made to try and ensure that racing is as safe as it can be......... and should anything happen it is beyond the control of these organisers and falls into the dangerous sport catagory in the disclamer. Which we all fully understand...

I started life in racing as a marshall in UK aged 14. All flag points had 3 persons. 1/ point manager who had radio contact and gave direct instructions to his/her flaggies and reported incidents/riders to control. This person was told NEVER to leave the flag point and to remain vigilant at all times. Flaggie 1 watched oncoming traffic at all times. Flaggie 2 watched traffic that had passed flag point. If either had to leave to recover bike etc, the others knew there job had to be covered. There were strict do/donts for each position. (Such as never turn your back to the track when picking up a bike or returning to flag point) damn good advice. Each point knew exactly wher their juristiciation started /ended in regards to parts of the track they were responsible for. When i started for many meetings i was only allowed to observe at flag points (and not get in way) Then after mentoring from head flaggies and chief flag marshall i was allowed to be a flaggie but still under very close supervision. After a period of time in which all my learnings were put to use i was considered one of the team.
As a note most of the flag point managers had been doing the job for many many years and were professionals in there field. They were held in very high regard by all riders including all the superstars. Who realised the value of these people.
We were all paid for the day and provided with a hot lunch (and a packed/cut lunch box for the day) I was one of the part timers... but most of the head guys/girls were full time marshalls employed by the track. Many raced or had raced in the past. Their wages as those of all other officials were factored into the pricing of track to the promotor who in turn factored it into entries.
Have to say that it was one of the most professional group of people i have worked with.... i think mainly because every person involved had a passion for the sport and their job.

But back to the point...... if we want such level of service from organisers/officials and to have meetings that run like clockwork and enough bodies to enforce rules correctly and consistantly..then the entry fees/licensing etc wil have to rise to be on a par with other countries................. !
I for one would like to see proper scrutineering of all bikes / highly skilled flaggies / tech stewards / and all the other official jobs being carried out on race day. And would happily pay double what we pay now if that was garanteed.
Nothing wrong with rules and enforcing them as long as it is fairly enforced and consistant to ALL.

[yungatart]

....I for one would like to see proper scrutineering of all bikes / highly skilled flaggies / tech stewards / and all the other official jobs being carried out on race day. And would happily pay double what we pay now if that was garanteed.
Nothing wrong with rules and enforcing them as long as it is fairly enforced and consistant to ALL.

PMCC and Vic club do use a core of highly trained marshals at all of their meetings. Both clubs hold these flaggies in high regard. Apart from flag marshal duties, these guys/girls take on training and mentoring of newbies. We take our role very seriously.

As for paying double what you pay now to race, you would be in the minority, sad to say.

[FROSTY]

So where does it say that? You guys need to stop making up rules to suit your own needs
Where at any point am I "making up rules'?
I asked a question and was apologetic in requiring clarification. My very SPECIFIC reason for asking was in order to define
"3.12 The Club/Promoter shall provide a sufficient number of Flag and Track Marshals"
I was perhaps incorrectly of the understanding that a minimum number of 2 marshalls was concidered to be "sufficient" for every flag point. You would have to be some sort of superman to call in to race control,wave the apropriate flag -possibly flags AND render assistance to a rider engulfed in flame or laying in a position not visible to other riders aproaching.
Rather than a tirade -sit back and think through the very rule YOU quoted.--walk around Pukie,manfeild,ruapuna etc in your head and think of a marshal point where one marshal is sufficient to cover every situation. --also concider that marshalls are also human and require "private" times -especially mid winter.

JUST TO CLARIFY HERE-- I'm not for a second critiquing the dedication of those who put their own lives on hold to run a race meeting.
the question is being asked because theres a lot smarter guys than me out there that will have logical reasoned explainations
--BUT WHAT IF -just one idea raised here or elsewhere gets used and just ONE life is saved or one injury avoided ?.
Isn't THAT worth setting ego's aside for?

[nodrog]

This thread needs a red flag.

[jellywrestler]

Its easy. If you want a $20 piece of plastic and wood so bad you ignore the most basic rules-we can all chip in and have a trophy made for the guy concerned. Problem solved.

great idea, and if they ignore the more important rules we could all chip in about $600, for their Coffin...

[MSTRS]

3.12 The Club/Promoter shall provide a sufficient number of Flag and Track Marshals who must be briefed prior to the start of the first practice.
Flag Marshals: Are marshals appointed to give signals laid down in these rules. Flag Marshals shall occupy posts along the course assigned to them by the Clerk of the Course.
As soon as the meeting commences all Marshals under the orders of the Clerk of the Course to whom he/she shall immediately report by any means at their disposal (telephone, signal, courier, etc.) all incidents and accidents which occur on the section of the course for which he/she is responsible.

So where does it say that? You guys need to stop making up rules to suit your own needs
So just what is a 'sufficient number'? It is certainly a recommendation that there be a marshal at every point, and 2 at certain 'known' points, at a minimum. The reality that meetings are often run under-staffed in marshal terms worries me. Many a time on race day, a call goes out for more volunteers ON THE DAY, because there just aren't 'enough' of us.
Sooner or later, MNZ will introduce an actual number - I just fear that it will be because of an incident due to poor coverage.


...
Have to say that it was one of the most professional group of people i have worked with.... i think mainly because every person involved had a passion for the sport and their job...
The level of professionalism expected has a long way to go in NZ. This is not to say that we don't take our responsibilities seriously...most of us do...but when teenagers and first-timers are heavily utilised...
As I said above, unless or until an incident occurs, that can be directly attributed to a lack of marshal coverage (or attentiveness/training) then what we have is it.


PMCC and Vic club do use a core of highly trained marshals at all of their meetings. Both clubs hold these flaggies in high regard. Apart from flag marshal duties, these guys/girls take on training and mentoring of newbies. We take our role very seriously.

As for paying double what you pay now to race, you would be in the minority, sad to say.
Correct on all counts

[Str8 Jacket]

This thread needs a red flag.

I am thinking black flag for some and definitely the Black flag with orange circle for those who are having obvious mechanical (read mental) issues.....

[Tony.OK]

also concider that marshalls are also human and require "private" times -especially mid winter.



Oh is that why MSTRS and Yungatart marshall together.................its a "keep warm" kind of thing? :shit::eek::msn-wink::bleh:

[MSTRS]

Oh is that why MSTRS and Yungatart marshall together.................its a "keep warm" kind of thing? :shit::eek::msn-wink::bleh:

Not recently. She says it's because I smell...

[Kevin G]

So just what is a 'sufficient number'? It is certainly a recommendation that there be a marshal at every point, and 2 at certain 'known' points, at a minimum. The reality that meetings are often run under-staffed in marshal terms worries me. Many a time on race day, a call goes out for more volunteers ON THE DAY, because there just aren't 'enough' of us.
Sooner or later, MNZ will introduce an actual number - I just fear that it will be because of an incident due to poor coverage.


The level of professionalism expected has a long way to go in NZ. This is not to say that we don't take our responsibilities seriously...most of us do...but when teenagers and first-timers are heavily utilised...
As I said above, unless or until an incident occurs, that can be directly attributed to a lack of marshal coverage (or attentiveness/training) then what we have is it.


Correct on all counts

Is it sooner or later...

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/down...ns_Raceway.pdf

[FROSTY]

One point I guess worth reminding people of is that we are in New Zealand with a population base smaller than one of the smaller cities in the UK.
% wise we have the same support if not more than in the UK for example.

Could I ask what would happen if for example MotoTT (or similar) were given race dates etc and actually ran the race meetings with the club and mnz folk just providing the official side of things?
Again happy to be shot down in flames here but it would seem to be a win/win situation.

[Kevin G]

One point I guess worth reminding people of is that we are in New Zealand with a population base smaller than one of the smaller cities in the UK.
% wise we have the same support if not more than in the UK for example.

Could I ask what would happen if for example MotoTT (or similar) were given race dates etc and actually ran the race meetings with the club and mnz folk just providing the official side of things?
Again happy to be shot down in flames here but it would seem to be a win/win situation.

They can, they just need to apply to become a promoter from MNZ.....small fee and its all available including all insurances etc.

[scott411]

They can, they just need to apply to become a promoter from MNZ.....small fee and its all available including all insurances etc.

are promotors able to get race meetings permits with out a club involved?

[SWERVE]

PMCC and Vic club do use a core of highly trained marshals at all of their meetings. Both clubs hold these flaggies in high regard. Apart from flag marshal duties, these guys/girls take on training and mentoring of newbies. We take our role very seriously.

As for paying double what you pay now to race, you would be in the minority, sad to say.

Not for one minute am i suggesting that all involved dont take there job seriously at PMCC or Vic. I am a comm member of MCC and i know what goes on behind the scenes and how much dedication and hard work is involved.
I think over the last couple of years all clubs have raised the bar from what it was.

Yes i know im in a minority........... thankful that racing is so affordable... but would pay more if it was brought to an even higher level. I have been involved in motorsport at an international level and while the officialdom may seem over zealous......... raceday is easier IMHO

[Gremlin]

So just what is a 'sufficient number'? It is certainly a recommendation that there be a marshal at every point, and 2 at certain 'known' points, at a minimum. The reality that meetings are often run under-staffed in marshal terms worries me. Many a time on race day, a call goes out for more volunteers ON THE DAY, because there just aren't 'enough' of us.
There are minimum numbers required at some meetings, if not all for AMCC. That level depends on the track and the event. Hampton Downs requires more than Pukekohe, Race days need more than ART days.


Could I ask what would happen if for example MotoTT (or similar) were given race dates etc and actually ran the race meetings with the club and mnz folk just providing the official side of things?
Again happy to be shot down in flames here but it would seem to be a win/win situation.
Who runs the Tri Series? I know they have had various clubs involved some of the time, depending on geographic location, who then provide officials. Another would the Post Classic Association/Club I think? There was a large event they ran at Taupo a year or two ago, AMCC were brought in to provide the officials...

[speights_bud]

I might add at PMCC and Vic club meetings a quad (or 2) bikes are available to get to the aid of a downed rider, this allows marshals to continue their flag duties. The quads can usually also get to the bike as quickly if not faster than most of the marshals could even if they tried. Also if a a marshal has to run 100-200m to the rider/bike whilst also carrying a fire extinguisher etc they are likely to be too knackered to help with much physical pushing etc of machinery off the track.


The Quads are also now trialing the use of a trailer in tow to recover bikes and remove them from track side as well. As some feedback has been put through there are a few little things to work on with where the quad should or shouldn't be venturing, but that's another thing altogether.

[ellipsis]

...we are such a small community,that we should not need to plea to a bunch of elected officials that bat on our behalf... what they are batting for is irrelevant, clubs is where NZ racing is happening ...where people choose to take their sport/passion to whatever heights they can afford/maintain, is down to business acumen/ management/and a serious look at where the dream starts and the reality stops... regional competition and inter club and inter island competition is where a small community of racers (NZ) could start breaking new ground...a base of supporters and someone to hail is the hallmark of a growing sport..less depending on expectations of a controlling body who are actually way out of their depth in having any thing other than an interest in how the sport flourishes and maintaining the rules...it's down to clubs to enforce the rules and supply the manpower to make the rules stick...we are not here to fuck spiders and wank flies, this is serious shit...

...if interpreting what a yellow flag means is such a problem, then if them wots in control cant come to grips with it , then we should...no wanking about...

[MSTRS]

...if interpreting what a yellow flag means is such a problem, then if them wots in control cant come to grips with it , then we should...no wanking about...

Could you please clarify (for the comprehension-challenged) just what you mean here?

The rider is in 'control' - of his bike.
The flaggy is in 'control' - of the flag/s.
Race Control are in control - of the whole shebang.
MNZ Steward is in 'control' - at the next level up.
And who is 'we' who should what?

Do I just think too much...

[ellipsis]

....there is a debate going on about a 'rule' that seems to be open to interpretation...the rule should be made perfectly clear by those who tend to the rules...a situation that could , by someone's misinterpretation lead to accidents or worse, should not be left hanging about like an errant child with a gun, at school....and if those who tend/write/enforce the rules seem to think that it is clearly written...what are we debating...

[slowpoke]

I can't help thinking folks are going off half cocked on this one. What exactly is the problem? Why is it a problem? How do we fix the problem?

Someone brought up that a race licence is too easy to obtain. I'm not disagreeing, but unless the primary cause for that observation is addressed, or assessed to determine if a problem even exists what are we trying to "fix"?

If the "problem" is poorly defined, and the causes are not clearly understood then the resulting "fix" won't actually fix a bloody thing.

As for the financial penalties mentioned by Billy, why make the penalties financial, when time penalties or race exclusion or suspension from competition would result in the same thing?

I take it the proposed fines be across the board too eh? Bucket racer at Kaitoke or school kid on a KR150, ya gotta come up with $500 for missing a yellow flag?