For the new riders and learners - A twist of the wrist 2

[willytheekid]

Unsure if this video series has been posted before :scratch:

But this is fantastic viewing for ALL and highly recommended reading/viewing (For learners and even experienced riders, everyone can learn new tips :msn-wink:)

http://www.ridermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/twist-of-the-wrist-2-dvd1.jpeg
Enjoy

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTvpziO9d0&feature=related

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-l1Sr6YQ38

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNQzzlgoB8A

Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1cB1Kzus7E

Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha_0Kh3SJ_4

Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8crgeHGsnlQ

You can still buy the books, they are a great investment :yes:

Vol1
http://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/transport/bikes/auction-473449381.htm
Vol2
http://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/transport/bikes/auction-473449363.htm

(I have the digital copys, fantastic reading!, even have them on my phone in-case I'm ever stuck in a doc's office etc and want to have an interesting read)
:niceone:

Ride safe KBers :love:

Willy

[Damantis]

Everyone seems to be expert at everything! :laugh:

I watched these not long ago. Really quite good eh? Though pretty corny for the most part, I'm sure most people can learn at least something from it. :niceone:

[willytheekid]

Everyone seems to be expert at everything! :laugh:

I watched these not long ago. Really quite good eh? Though pretty corny for the most part, I'm sure most people can learn at least something from it. :niceone:

:laugh: your dead right, the "experts" on here will no doubt say the advise offered in this series is absolute shit and they know best <_<...there loss really
I personally think this series should be given to all new riders to study :yes:
I had to laugh at the acting as well :laugh:...some corny scenes for sure, but excellent viewing non the less

[Quasi]

Thanks mate, the learning should never stop.

[swtfa]

Very helpful - thanks :)
The acting was a little over the top lol

[R-Soul]

Brilliant stuff- Keith code is the man!

[joan of arc]

At Fishpond.co.nz Vol I and II are about $32 each with free delivery

[Katman]

So is Keith Code the clown who's created all the focus on 'chicken strips'?

I couldn't even sit through part 1.

Too much cheese for me.

[bogan]

So is Keith Code the clown who's created all the focus on 'chicken strips'?

I couldn't even sit through part 1.

Too much cheese for me.

No, he just realises that it is the clowns who are already focused on 'chicken strips' and ground pegs, are the ones who need to be targeted. Its a damn good book, and even though some riders will use it to go faster on the road, on balance they will still be safer; and most of us just read it to be safer on the road.

[nzspokes]

So is Keith Code the clown who's created all the focus on 'chicken strips'?

I couldn't even sit through part 1.

Too much cheese for me.

Scared you might learn something?

[The End]

Scared you might learn something?

^


10 char

[Katman]

No, he just realises that it is the clowns who are already focused on 'chicken strips' and ground pegs, are the ones who need to be targeted. Its a damn good book, and even though some riders will use it to go faster on the road, on balance they will still be safer; and most of us just read it to be safer on the road.

Quite frankly, the DVD cover gives an indication to the real intent of the DVD.

Regardless of whether you're safer doing it for having seen the DVD, the intent is still to teach you how to ride faster.

[nathanwhite]

Regardless of whether you're safer doing it for having seen the DVD, the intent is still to teach you how to ride faster.

no duh! Its aimed at racers...

However there are plenty of things that one can apply from this on the road. Throttle control, cornering properly and braking techniques to name a few.

Racing on the road is up to the individual. However its pointless to think that track techniques are useless on the road.

[Katman]

no duh! Its aimed at racers...



Well duh, it's not particularly suited to new and learner riders then.

[xXGIBBOXx]

Been riding for bout 8 months now and my corners just didnt flow right after watching the dvd changed the way i do things feel better on the bike now , and want the books to read now . And yeah dvd is full of yank cheese

[R-Soul]

Well duh, it's not particularly suited to new and learner riders then.

Frankly this is such a good book that I figure you must be trolling... given what I have read about you and seen from you, I am surprised you don't already know it word for word.
If there is any good advice to be had (i.e sound, , it can be taken from this book. It does not teach you to go faster. It teaches you how to control your bike better.
What people choose to do with the extra control is their business.

[Katman]

What people choose to do with the extra control is their business.

Yeah, like that's not going to end in tears.

[jamov13]

Cheers dude.

Those vid's were awesome. I watched them all back to back - sure cheesy in places but there's a ton of info.

Awesome!

[Katman]

It's not so much the genuine extra control that concerns me but rather the perceived extra control.

[nathanwhite]

It's not so much the genuine extra control that concerns me but rather the perceived extra control.

This I think is why track days are important

[bogan]

It's not so much the genuine extra control that concerns me but rather the perceived extra control.

Have you read the book? The amount of factual and well thought out information presented makes it far more likely to align your perception of control with the reality of it, rather than to create a larger division. Personally I prefer Lee Parks book, but they cover much the same stuff, just with different writing styles.

[Katman]

Personally I prefer Lee Parks book, but they cover much the same stuff, just with different writing styles.

Personally, I'm warying of pumping new rider's brains full of shit that they'll never managed to process instantenously when it's needed.

Trouble is, everyone wants to be Rossi before breakfast these days.

[bogan]

Personally, I'm warying of pumping new rider's brains full of shit that they'll never managed to process instantenously when it's needed.

Thats one theory, another is riders who know what they don't know are more cautious riders. The later requires a responsible/respectful attitude to riding of course, which should be encouraged imo, rather than assuming all learner riders don't have it.

[davebullet]

Personally, I'm warying of pumping new rider's brains full of shit that they'll never managed to process instantenously when it's needed.

Trouble is, everyone wants to be Rossi before breakfast these days.

What reading would you recommend (if anything) then for:
A new rider
A returning rider
A rider with several years current riding with bad habits

I read TOTWII with a view to become more relaxed and confident, be aware of survival reactions and techniques to avoid them. It's helped.

[R-Soul]

Yeah, like that's not going to end in tears.

So you would prefer them to not have any good control in the hope that this will scare them into riding like nannas?

Good luck with that too...

[Katman]

I read TOTWII with a view to become more relaxed and confident, be aware of survival reactions and techniques to avoid them. It's helped.

That's great to hear.

Doesn't change the fact that I don't see Keith Code's tutorials as being particularly suited to new or learner riders.

(But bear in mind, I only struggled to about half way through part 1 before giving up on them).

[darkwolf]

Well duh, it's not particularly suited to new and learner riders then.

I'm going to disagree with you on this Katman.

It <s>was</s> is the most helpful tool I've used while learning. I watched the DVD before doing a 2,626KM road trip around the South Island in February. Applying the basics of what I learnt from that DVD is what I think made me a safer rider. Understanding the SRs (Survival Reactions) such as target fixation, chopping the throttle, and tightening up on the bars is what got me through that road trip.

Then as I got more confident introducing things such as the "two-step" approach to corners allowed me to start linking corners together and ensure I was prepared for what lay around the next bend. I have a copy of the book and the DVD on my phone that I frequently go back to because it is still a fantastic tool for riding.

I genuinely believe this sort of thing should be the first thing a learner does because it allows them to remove the bad habits before they start not trying to correct umpteen years of mistakes.

It's not perfect as it doesn't go enough into the safety side of things but my view is that the book was never written for road conditions, it was written to improve the rider on the bike. What the rider does with that improvement is the rider's choice, not the book's. It just seems that you are too focused on worrying about how people may perceive it to realise the benefit to the book. I wasn't a fan of the two guys in the DVD but they did help to point out things to avoid.

[Katman]

It just seems that you are too focused on worrying about how people may perceive it to realise the benefit to the book. I wasn't a fan of the two guys in the DVD but they did help to point out things to avoid.

I'm sure there is benefit within the book. I'm just not convinced that such an accelerated learning process is ideal for learner riders.

And quite frankly, anyone who evens refers to 'chicken strips' is a dickhead - let alone someone who uses the ridicule of them as the introduction to their riding tutorial.

[darkwolf]

I'm sure there is benefit within the book. I'm just not convinced that such an accelerated learning process is ideal for learner riders.

And quite frankly, anyone who evens refers to 'chicken strips' is a dickhead - let alone someone who uses the ridicule of them as the introduction to their riding tutorial.

Again, I'll argue part of that one. I agree that making chicken strips a measure of a rider's skill isn't a good idea. My view when I started was that if I am wearing that part off my tyre when I'm on the road, I'm pushing too much. With a little bit more experience, I'm still not concerned about getting rid of them but I understand what they can tell me about my riding in terms of how close to the limits I am getting.

Where my opinion differs is that I would rather show a learner things like target fixation, throttle control, body position and relaxed riding the first time they jump on a bike than wait until they've fudged through some rather ugly scenarios and destroyed their confidence or become resistant to riding techniques because they've got this far without needed to be washed off the tar seal.

Based on my own experience with the DVD (and now the book), the first time through I got truly lost right about the time they started about different lines through the corners but I picked up the basics of counter-steering, throttle control and using target fixation to my advantage. Every successive time through the DVD I've picked up something knew and each chapter I read of the book gives me something I missed in the DVD.

I would recommend, even to you, that if you can't stand the cheesy DVD, maybe get a copy of the book. I have an electronic copy if you want. I'm not saying you could use it, just that it might change your view on it.

As previously stated, I think learners will gather more from it because they don't already have their preconceived ideas of what should and shouldn't be about riding.

[Scream]

I'm sure there is benefit within the book. I'm just not convinced that such an accelerated learning process is ideal for learner riders.

And quite frankly, anyone who evens refers to 'chicken strips' is a dickhead - let alone someone who uses the ridicule of them as the introduction to their riding tutorial.

I disagree, I'm a new rider and it taught me things that I didn't really apply properly beforehand, and also provided a bit more insight into the things I already did know.
Although it may be themed around racing and going fast there is a lot of good information that relates to riding safely on the road.

[Katman]

Although it may be themed around racing and going fast there is a lot of good information that relates to riding safely on the road.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

A tutorial for new/learner riders should ignore the first half of that sentence and concentrate solely on the second half.

[Scream]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

A tutorial for new/learner riders should ignore the first half of that sentence and concentrate solely on the second half.

I think the point of the video is that it can cater to more than just learners, whilst still catering for learners.
Thread title is misleading.

[Ruahine]

(I have the digital copys, fantastic reading!, even have them on my phone in-case I'm ever stuck in a doc's office etc and want to have an interesting read)
:niceone:

Ride safe KBers :love:

Willy

Thanks for that.

I see there are two Twist of the Wrist books. Is version II an update on Version I or are they both worthwhile?

[Asher]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

A tutorial for new/learner riders should ignore the first half of that sentence and concentrate solely on the second half.

Are you arguing the content of a book before you have even read it?


I watched the video after about 2 weeks of owning a bike and it helped heaps, sure some of it was well advanced for me like racing lines but it also covers counter steering and survival reactions that many learners dont know but should.

[jamov13]

If the discussion topic is about new riders becoming safer or faster, then perhaps the learning process should be considered.

It could be broken down like this:


Remembering. (Getting it in the learners head)
Understanding. (Coming to grips with the knowledge/knowing why)
Applying. (The goal for most, riding safer/faster)
Analising. (Challenging and improving the current knowledge base)



I'm a new rider and I found the info valuable. The posted vid's on YouTube opened my eyes to the fact that I'm not so hot on a bike; that help is out there; and that it's an on going, fun process to learn. It didn't suddenly send me out on the street wanting to race through the corners, in fact the opposite.

I think new riders should be exposed to the correct techniques from the get go (including a look at the advanced stuff. That's important).

My learning revolved around what the law told me to do. Riding around on my own sort of masked some bad habits that I had picked up due to teaching myself, and it also masked a few good habits I had. When I switched to a bigger bike I soon discovered what worked and what didn't (at my own peril). I also missed a lot without knowing it, and misunderstood a lot too (highlighted by the dvd/books).

Each to there own i guess - but if new riders don't get exposed to higher knowledge: Whats the alternative? Trial and error?

[willytheekid]

That's great to hear.

Doesn't change the fact that I don't see Keith Code's tutorials as being particularly suited to new or learner riders.

(But bear in mind, I only struggled to about half way through part 1 before giving up on them).

Gidday KM

I honestly Thought you would love this series mate.:scratch:
Keith Code is the founder of the California Superbike School, he is one of the most respected motorcycle instructors on the planet! (he taught Wayne Rainey!)
This series of books teaches the "Mechanics & Physics" of motorcycling
YES, it is angled at the road & track racer....But (And you will like this one), Keiths golden rule for learning is "Never exceed 75% of your abilitys"....he believes in NOT pushing the envelope, or trying to be fast...his philosophy is control and understanding.

I urge you to give the books a try (I would be MORE than happy to send you copys mate)....if you read them, I promise you will like the content, and may even learn a whole lot more than you thought was possible :niceone:

I shared this and recommended them for learners for a reason, Keith explains the physics of motorcycling better than anyone else!....and that understanding can ONLY lead to safer riding.

yell if you want copies mate:msn-wink:

[Katman]

YES, it is angled at the road & track racer....

Trouble is, too many learner motorcyclists just can't wait be just like Rossi and can't see the distinction between the road and the track.....


But (And you will like this one), Keiths golden rule for learning is "Never exceed 75% of your abilitys"....he believes in NOT pushing the envelope, or trying to be fast...his philosophy is control and understanding.


.....and plenty of them have scant regard for 'golden rules'.

[willytheekid]

Thanks for that.

I see there are two Twist of the Wrist books. Is version II an update on Version I or are they both worthwhile?

Hi Ruahine

Twist of the Wrist: -The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook
A Twist of the Wrist 2: The Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding

Yes, both are very similar. (and cover the same topics to be honest)

[Katman]

Well, I'm slowly trying to wade through the books.

So far, all I'm seeing is instruction that is guaranteed to turn out the likes of Grantman - who sees very section of winding public road as an opportunity to try getting from A to B the fastest they possibly can and usually ending up underneath a truck coming the other way.

[Katman]

Learner riders, forget Twist of the Wrist - get this book instead.

<img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ApKFWw47MOk/Tc2RfKl6UwI/AAAAAAAAAS8/Yuga6hj7b0o/s1600/motorcycle-roadcraft-the-police-riders-handbook-70-p.jpg"/>

It will go considerably further in keeping you alive on public roads than Twist of the Wrist ever well.

[pritch]

Learner riders, forget Twist of the Wrist - get this book instead.


I have most of the "how to ride" books currently available, and some that aren't. Some are from an earlier time and are written by people like Jeff Smith, Sammy Miller and Mike Hailwood etc. If I could only have one book though that Police Handbook would be on my shortlist. It is also, as Katman says, probably the most appropriate text for a beginner.

On a previous occasion when there was a thread on KB giving details as to how to download the book TOTW2 without payment, a Code family member posted to remind all and sundry that if you want to read it you should buy it.

He wasn't wrong.

[R-Soul]

Thanks for that.

I see there are two Twist of the Wrist books. Is version II an update on Version I or are they both worthwhile?

The first is a bit ramblinag nd all over teh show. More for racing - cornering lines etc. The second is much better for both road and track.

[R-Soul]

Well, I'm slowly trying to wade through the books.

So far, all I'm seeing is instruction that is guaranteed to turn out the likes of Grantman - who sees very section of winding public road as an opportunity to try getting from A to B the fastest they possibly can and usually ending up underneath a truck coming the other way.

Do teh TOTW II first - the first book is a bit rambling and ore aimed at racers. The second one is the best.

[R-Soul]

I'm sure there is benefit within the book. I'm just not convinced that such an accelerated learning process is ideal for learner riders.

And quite frankly, anyone who evens refers to 'chicken strips' is a dickhead - let alone someone who uses the ridicule of them as the introduction to their riding tutorial.

The video makes it clear that with goo dcontrol, chicken strips mean nothing - you can lose your chicken strips in a parking lot at low speed too.

[Ruahine]

The first is a bit ramblinag nd all over teh show. More for racing - cornering lines etc. The second is much better for both road and track.

Cheers man. I will check it out.

[R-Soul]

Cheers man. I will check it out.

The first one was good for making you aware of the difffferent road surface and corner types - like road cambers, elevation changes, dual apex corners, road surface changes etc. Although it takes a while to make its ponts, it does make some good ones, and ou should read it too. It opened my mind to teh idea of "reading" a road - not just looking for a line in a corner.

But I think the second book is more important first off.

[willytheekid]

Learner riders, forget Twist of the Wrist - get this book instead.

It will go considerably further in keeping you alive on public roads than Twist of the Wrist ever well.

Ummm No it won't!

This book (and yes, I have it and have read it), assumes that you already know how to ride and have a strong understanding of the basics.
Twist of the wrist and the other Book I sent you (proficient motorcycling) teaches you the mechanics and physics of a motorcycle and how to actually ride one safely...Like how to actually go around a corner!...how to stop safely...how to position yourself on the bike and the road etc etc.

The Police Riders Handbook to Better Motorcycling IS an amazing read!, but it is an advanced riders book NOT suitable for learners at all!!
...you actually need to know HOW to ride a bike safely to put that vast amount of knowledge into safe practice...no good learning how to read traffic flow and watch for relavant dangers if you can't even stop the bike!(Hence why the book is recommended only at advanced rider training!)

But yes, it is a very well written book and along with the others WILL aid most riders to ride safer.

The most important thing for learner riders to understand is, NO book will EVER be as good as professional rider training!!...theory is one thing, but putting that theory into practice, and having a trained eye watch you and guild you will ALWAYS be the best way to learn how to put all that theory into practice and ensure that you have fully understood the information and technics studied.

Never hurts to study...but if your not prepared to sit the practical exams you will never know if you learnt how to put it all into practice.

[Katman]

but it is an advanced riders book NOT suitable for learners at all!!


Now you're just being silly Willy.

Anyone can pedal a bike around a corner if it's done with sufficient caution.

Hazard identification and situational awareness are considerably more pertinent to a learner rider than are the physics/geometry of a corner.

By it's own admission, Twist of the Wrist is aimed solely at motorcycle racers realising their full potential. Learner riders don't need (and, in fact, are better off without) that degree of accelerated tuition.

[Scream]

Now you're just being silly Willy.

Anyone can pedal a bike around a corner if it's done with sufficient caution.

Hazard identification and situational awareness are considerably more pertinent to a learner rider than are the physics/geometry of a corner.


By it's own admission, Twist of the Wrist is aimed solely at motorcycle racers realising their full potential. Learner riders don't need (and, in fact, are better off without) that degree of accelerated tuition.

I disagree again, after watching my friends attempt to ride my bike in a carpark with no understanding of the physics behind it I believe information like Twist of the Wrist II is of worth.

YES the majority of the film/book (I have only watched the film) may be orientated at racing/erasing chicken strips, in itself I believe that is a marketing ploy as much as it is valuable information.
If someone is going to be an idiot on a bike, I believe they should be a somewhat informed idiot over a fullstop idiot. Whether they watch/read TOTW, chances are they intend on riding like a dimwit anyway.

and funnily enough, hazard avoidance and awareness is a part of TOTW.

[Zedder]

Thanks for posting all that Wtk.

I bought the Police Motorcycle Roadcraft book a while ago but also have one by an American instructor called Pat Hahn that was given to me.

To this day I still refer to these books but am also going to buy the Keith Code one mentioned.

[Flip]

I believe both the UK cop book and the twist of the wrist are equally important. One is roadcraft for motorcycles the other is bike craft. You need to know both to be a good rider.

[ducatilover]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

A tutorial for new/learner riders should ignore the first half of that sentence and concentrate solely on the second half.
So, teach 'em throttle control?

Learner riders, forget Twist of the Wrist - get this book instead.



It will go considerably further in keeping you alive on public roads than Twist of the Wrist ever well.
I'm after a copy of that :niceone:

I believe both the UK cop book and the twist of the wrist are equally important. One is roadcraft for motorcycles the other is bike craft. You need to know both to be a good rider.
Agreed!


Good post Willy old chap, am currently watching the cheesy vids.
I read both TOTW books back to back and have since gone back to them many times to re-study some things. They've helped me heaps.
Katman, every learner rider MUST learn about throttle control. No, it's not to be Rossi, throttle control is huge and no, you aren't going to just learn this shit. I've ridden with many opinionated twats who have zillions of km experience who wobble and fuck around knowing better than Keith code.
I probably still wobble and fuck around, but I do it a shit load smoother and safer.

[p.dath]

Respect to Katman, as he just wants people to not hurt and kill themselves on the road - and to take personal responsibility ensuring those goals. Which is what "The Police Riders Handbook to Better Motorcycling" is all about.

In the UK this book is also used in the IAM motorcyling classes, and those classes also focus on machine control - which is what Twist of the Wrist is more concerned with. However TOTW does it up a notch - to track level. That doesn't mean you should be going to maximum lean angle on every corner on the road though. You just need to apply common sense.


So I think both books have information in them that you can take away and use for road riding. It's about absorbing the information, and applying that which is reasonable and suitable for use on the road, and the situations you get into.

Just like here on KB. You need to consider the information that is presented, extract which you think is resonable and correct, and ignore the rest. Otherwise we will all be in a lot of trouble.

[Katman]

The problem being that far too many motorcyclists equate 'faster' with 'better' and 'better' with 'safer'.

Sure, you might be able to go around a corner faster after reading Twist of the Wrist.

Does it make you safer?

Not necessarily.

[Flip]

The problem being that far too many motorcyclists equate 'faster' with 'better' and 'better' with 'safer'.

Sure, you might be able to go around a corner faster after reading Twist of the Wrist.

Does it make you safer?

Not necessarily.

Does having an advanced understanding of motorcycle road craft mean you have the skills necessary to control a 2 wheel vehicle in a difficult situation say when you run over a patch of loose gravel, certanly knowing the risks minimises the chance that the hazard might occur.

To me bike skills and road craft are the diferent sides of the same coin. One without the other is a recepie for disaster. I prefer the term proficiency, am I a proficient rider? At least now days there are good books and training courses that can teach you these things. It honestly took me 30 years of continueous riding to work some of these things out on my own. I really wish I had done the reading and attended the courses decades ago, my riding would have been so much more proficient (better, safer, faster) much earlier if I had known more. Hind sight is however a perfect science.

This is about as touchy feely as I get!

[Katman]

Does having an advanced understanding of motorcycle road craft mean you have the skills necessary to control a 2 wheel vehicle in a difficult situation say when you run over a patch of loose gravel, certanly knowing the risks minimises the chance that the hazard might occur.

To me bike skills and road craft are the diferent sides of the same coin. One without the other is a recepie for disaster. I prefer the term proficiency, am I a proficient rider? At least now days there are good books and training courses that can teach you these things. It honestly took me 30 years of continueous riding to work some of these things out on my own. I really wish I had done the reading and attended the courses decades ago, my riding would have been so much more proficient (better, safer, faster) much earlier if I had known more. Hind sight is however a perfect science.

This is about as touchy feely as I get!

And therein lies the difference between Twist of the Wrist and The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling and why the latter is a far more suitable manual for learner riders.

You could feasibly take and apply 10% from TOTW and actually become a more dangerous rider while on the other hand, taking any 10% from the Police Handbook will make you safer.

[Flip]

And therein lies the difference between Twist of the Wrist and The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling and why the latter is a far more suitable manual for learner riders.

You could feasibly take and apply 10% from TOTW and actually become a more dangerous rider while on the other hand, taking any 10% from the Police Handbook will make you safer.

Certanly the first step to manage any risk is to identify it, however most newbys come with some road craft skills, they have ridden a push bike, have driven a car and have done their BHS, the thing that they don't know is how the heck to ride a motorcycle. To me these two skill sets are not mutually exclusive.

For real newbys the twist vid and book will be meaningless initially because they won't have the basic skills necessary to add the advanced skill set onto, but does that mean that they should not know about advanced skills? I think they should as you don't know what you can get right until you know how to do it. To be a good rider you have to practice good riding.

You can have all the road craft skills and still be a crap rider, you can have all the race bike skills and still be a crap road rider.

I live in a rural community, I ride mostly on rural roads. I rode to Auckland for the Hog rally and I felt quite vulenable riding in the city, I don't have good city road craft skills. Put me on a high country farm road and I understand 3d corners, gravel, ice, cows, sheep and tractors.

[Katman]

For real newbys the twist vid and book will be meaningless initially because they won't have the basic skills necessary to add the advanced skill set onto, but does that mean that they should not know about advanced skills? I think they should as you don't know what you can get right until you know how to do it. To be a good rider you have to practice good riding.


Yeah, everyone wants to go from Newbie to Advanced overnight.

Trouble is, fill a Newbies head with too much information all at once and they're never going to select the right thought/action process instantaneously when it matters.

[willytheekid]

Yeah, everyone wants to go from Newbie to Advanced overnight.

Trouble is, fill a Newbies head with too much information all at once and they're never going to select the right thought/action process instantaneously when it matters.

Exactly my previous point/post

The most important thing for learner riders to understand is, NO book will EVER be as good as professional rider training!!...theory is one thing, but putting that theory into practice, and having a trained eye watch you and guild you will ALWAYS be the best way to learn how to put all that theory into practice and ensure that you have fully understood the information and technics studied.

Never hurts to study...but if your not prepared to sit the practical exams you will never know if you learnt how to put it all into practice.

No book, tip or advice will EVER be as good as professional training!....and then even after that, experiance, practice and constant learning are required for survival on the road


New riders don't believe us?
....theres a reason why professional racers like valentino rossi etc DON'T ride bikes on the road...because there brains arn't wired for survival!...just speed!, they would be dead inside a week!
...hence the term "rossi"...ISNT! a compliment for road riders...its usually an obituary.

[Flip]

Reading a book about advanced paino playing doesent make me a concert painist. But is will help me to become one with a lot of practice.

Motorcycling is a dangerous pastime that sorts out the wheat from the chaff pdq. There are always going to be a few learner muppets noobs on those small sports bikes that are going to become unstuck, there always have been and there always will be. As the old saying goes there are no old bold motorcyclists.

The fast track to becoming a proficient rider is through the use of some of the very good books and espcially the courses available. I will put in a plug for the very effective Prorider one I did last year. I believe it takes 10 years before you know your ass from your elbow motorcycle wise.

It's actually the open track day riders that give me the shits because they practice bad technique and get away with it on a dry high friction track surface. The real world is not as forgiving.

[Katman]

Reading a book about advanced paino playing doesent make me a concert painist.

Is that some sort of S & M fetish?

[ducatilover]

The problem being that far too many motorcyclists equate 'faster' with 'better' and 'better' with 'safer'.

Sure, you might be able to go around a corner faster after reading Twist of the Wrist.

Does it make you safer?

Not necessarily.

Can't disagree with you.
So, we agree training is best and these books are excellent, attitude is the killer then? In my eyes it is, only times I've come off have been because of dickheadedness.

I'm going to find a copy of the Police Road Craft book.

Fun fact for today:
GN250s are not the greatest bikes to practice TOTW skills on. :msn-wink:

[darkwolf]

Can't disagree with you.
So, we agree training is best and these books are excellent, attitude is the killer then? In my eyes it is, only times I've come off have been because of dickheadedness.

I'm going to find a copy of the Police Road Craft book.

Fun fact for today:
GN250s are not the greatest bikes to practice TOTW skills on. :msn-wink:

Sure they are - did you read the part about the "lean angle credit card"? It's not the lean you have but how quickly you make the turn... You may not have the ground clearance of the sports bike but doesn't mean you can't use the information in the same way...

You have two ways of applying any book about riding, read it and think this will make me faster than Rossi or read it and realise you are a useless bum on a bike and you are the reason that a bike crashes but with a bit of practice you can limit the crashiness your influence on a naturally stable machine. One is way wrong; the other is more correct.

[Akzle]

yadayadayada.


hey does everyone know about keepvid.com?

it allows you to download from youtube etc, save the movies to your computer, rather than having to download them from youtube every time if you want to watch em again. which saves on bandwidth and time...
(this may be considered piracy and may be illegal if you're in someone's jurisdiction, but so's YT)

some good points raised in the vid. i think a learner with their mind open would do well to watch it.

[darkwolf]

yadayadayada.


hey does everyone know about keepvid.com?

it allows you to download from youtube etc, save the movies to your computer, rather than having to download them from youtube every time if you want to watch em again. which saves on bandwidth and time...
(this may be considered piracy and may be illegal if you're in someone's jurisdiction, but so's YT)

some good points raised in the vid. i think a learner with their mind open would do well to watch it.

You would be better served to view the video through Google Chrome and download a YouTube video through YouTube's own downloader extension I would think...

[Akzle]

You would be better served to view the video through Google Chrome and download a YouTube video through YouTube's own downloader extension I would think...
if you use chrome anyway (which i don't, because i think it's shit (opera FTW)) meybe.
keepvid also allows you to dl from google vid, vimeo, tube8 etc etc.

[ducatilover]

Sure they are - did you read the part about the "lean angle credit card"? It's not the lean you have but how quickly you make the turn... You may not have the ground clearance of the sports bike but doesn't mean you can't use the information in the same way...

You have two ways of applying any book about riding, read it and think this will make me faster than Rossi or read it and realise you are a useless bum on a bike and you are the reason that a bike crashes but with a bit of practice you can limit the crashiness your influence on a naturally stable machine. One is way wrong; the other is more correct.

Would help me if my GN would build up enough speed to get to the first corner... :yawn: In saying that, it's the most amusing heap of shit I've ridden. I leave the practice of TOTW to my time on the 600, there aren't many corners around here that are GN friendly :laugh:

[nzspokes]

Would help me if my GN would build up enough speed to get to the first corner... :yawn: In saying that, it's the most amusing heap of shit I've ridden. I leave the practice of TOTW to my time on the 600, there aren't many corners around here that are GN friendly :laugh:

GN friendly? You should be able to get your knee down in the driveway. :laugh:

[ducatilover]

GN friendly? You should be able to get your knee down in the driveway. :laugh:

I can, have you seen my post count?

[R-Soul]

And therein lies the difference between Twist of the Wrist and The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling and why the latter is a far more suitable manual for learner riders.

You could feasibly take and apply 10% from TOTW and actually become a more dangerous rider while on the other hand, taking any 10% from the Police Handbook will make you safer.


Sure road craft skills are good - very important - but the fact is that half of all bike accidents are bikes going off corners all by their ownsome.

And its not because they did not use their roadcraft skills to not spot a cow pat. Its because they froze up and were not able to control their machine, with bad pody positioning, and had their survival reactions (SR's) kick in, which are counter intuitive for all of us (not just newbies). They did not recognise their reactions as SR's and did not know what to do to overcome them as they were going off the corner. They did not not know their own and their bikes capabilities, which led them to beloeve that they could not trun the bike in more witout losing traction. So an accident that could be avoided by merely turning harder, happened. Not because of poor roadcraft, but because they just did not know how to control their bike.

OK arguably good roadcraft would have helped them spot a tightening corner earlier....

To my mind, roadcraft lets you spot hazards as soon as possible, while "machine craft" gives you better ability to get through the hazard unscathed, and in control.

[SuperMac]

Sure road craft skills are good - very important - but the fact is that half of all bike accidents are bikes going off corners all by their ownsome.

And its not because they did not use their roadcraft skills to not spot a cow pat. Its because they froze up and were not able to control their machine, with bad pody positioning, and had their survival reactions (SR's) kick in, which are counter intuitive for all of us (not just newbies). . . . They did not not know their own and their bikes capabilities, which led them to beloeve that they could not trun the bike in more witout losing traction. So an accident that could be avoided by merely turning harder, happened. Not because of poor roadcraft, but because they just did not know how to control their bike.

OK arguably good roadcraft would have helped them spot a tightening corner earlier....

To my mind, roadcraft lets you spot hazards as soon as possible, while "machine craft" gives you better ability to get through the hazard unscathed, and in control.

Unfortunately, in the UK 'Roadcraft'-style training has traditionally excluded (or 'not included', depending on whether you view it as deliberate :) ) any 'machine control' aspects (such as use of counter-steering, and body positioning) have been sadly absent.

Which meant that if the UK-trained rider miss-read a corner and went in too fast, then he might well (if he lived to discuss it) be able to tell you what he got wrong, he might even be able to identify how he 'froze' and looked out of the corner at the wall or tree.

But he wouldn't know about counter-steering so won't have been able to do anything useful to get out of the hole he was rapidly digging.

If you get to read either Motorcycle Roadcraft or the UK Driving Standards Agency (who control all 'licence' training and testing) Motorcycling Manual, you may be shocked to find that neither will explain how to counter-steer.

That said, 'attitude' was mentioned earlier in the thread, and if linked with good hazard perception that may well keep you out of trouble far better than improved machine control.

As a flip around of something else said, a 'poor' rider isn't necessarily 'dangerous' as long as they stay within their limits.

[p.dath]

Unfortunately, in the UK 'Roadcraft'-style training has traditionally excluded (or 'not included', depending on whether you view it as deliberate :) ) any 'machine control' aspects (such as use of counter-steering, and body positioning) have been sadly absent
....
If you get to read either Motorcycle Roadcraft or the UK Driving Standards Agency (who control all 'licence' training and testing) Motorcycling Manual, you may be shocked to find that neither will explain how to counter-steer.
...

Perhaps my recollection of the book is wrong, but I'm pretty sure it talks about the IPSGA methodology, and does discuss counter-steering and has a little bit about machine machine control (in the methodology S=speed, G=gear and A=acceleration).


If you missed the IPSGA methodology from the book then you missed the half the point of the book.

[SuperMac]

Perhaps my recollection of the book is wrong, but I'm pretty sure it talks about the IPSGA methodology, and does discuss counter-steering and has a little bit about machine machine control (in the methodology S=speed, G=gear and A=acceleration).

If you missed the IPSGA methodology from the book then you missed the half the point of the book.

:banana: No idea what that smiley is supposed to mean, but it seems somehow appropriate :bleh:

Anyway . . . trust me, there's nothing in the most recent version about counter-steering, and there hasn't been in any previous version (the old 'blue book' suggested that the front wheel didn't need to be turned, one simply leaned to get around corners).

When I say 'machine control', I'm contrasting it with US training such as that provided by the MSF, which when I did their courses covered counter-steering, counter-leaning, braking techniques, rear wheel lock-ups, etc. In fact, they've moved on and introduced a specific sports bike course, possibly as a tie in with CSS.

I don't think I missed the IPSGA methodology, which has been developed from the earlier 7-point system throughout which information gathering was use to determine which of the points were used or whether the system should be 'restarted'.

The original 'blue book' style was far more prescriptive. If you want and idea of that, check Youtube for the set of Kent police 'Riding Plans' videos (try to watch them in order).

Also in the most recent (post '96) versions of Roadcraft is the Observe Plan Act mental system. This is very similar to the Search Predict Act system which the MSF introduced in the late 1980s, but during a visit to the London's Metropolitan police driving school, Chris Gilbert ( http://www.driving4tomorrow.com/about.htm ) told me that they came up with the OPA version without contact with the MSF. That said, much of the 'new' Roadcraft's style of content and presentation came from Gordon Sharp ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Human-Aspects-Police-Driving-Gordon/dp/1901568008 ) so he may well have been aware of the MSF's work.

Search Predict Act is a 'compact' version of Scan Identify Plan Decide Execute, but the MSF, however, have now moved on from SPA to 'SEE', Search Evaluate Execute.

[SuperMac]

Accidents: The result of a failure to plan

A friend of mine says a 'near miss' is an 'accident suffering from lack of ambition' :msn-wink:

[R-Soul]

I am not slagging off either -both are very important to riding safety. On one aspect, there is the cerebral side of it - the awareness of your surroundings and prediction of events - all those TLA's (three letter acronyms) you mentioned, that allow you to stay clear of trouble in the first place.

And then there is the practical set of riding techniques and theory - the "what to do when you are in the hole already" - that is also critical.

eg
- what to do when the head starts shaking because you accelerated too rapidly and the front wheel lifted and came down skew, or when you hit a block of wood in the road that came out form under the car in front of you
- what to do and what position your body should be in in corners, to be able to react when the corner tightens up unexpectedly
- why and when you lean, and what way to lean at diffrent speeds for different effects


The theory behind this, a well as getting practical experience in it, especially in a safe setting, is important as part of a riders education.

[SuperMac]

I am not slagging off either

I don't think I suggested you were :wacko:


On one aspect, there is the cerebral side of it - the awareness of your surroundings and prediction of events - all those TLA's (three letter acronyms) you mentioned, that allow you to stay clear of trouble in the first place.

Interesting point there, that when I taught MSF Experienced RiderCourses, they were adament that Search Predict Act shouldn't be shortened to an acronym - it had to be kept as the full sequence of words to reinforce the message.

However, I totally agree that keeping out of trouble is by far the best way of riding, rather than relying on reactions and responses.

e.g. http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/trl_reports/cat_road_user_safety/report_development_of_a_video_measure_of_hazard_pe rception_skill_and_a_group_discussion_based_hazard _perception_training_package_for_motorcyclists.htm

TBH, if your hazard perception is good, and you take notice of what you identify, the actual physical process of riding is much less important. IMHO :drool:


to be able to react when the corner tightens up unexpectedly

Do they really do that? :banana::argh: :nono:



The theory behind this, a well as getting practical experience in it, especially in a safe setting, is important as part of a riders education.

Now this is where our thoughts really drift apart. Part of the problem is that 'training' is all well and good - but doesn't guarantee that anyone will actually do the 'right' thing when needed - particularly when they haven't practiced those skills.

In fact, it's very difficult (almost impossible, in fact) to prove that 'training' actually has any real long-term benefits. Its major benefit is as a 'short-cut' to reduce time spent gaining experience.

[R-Soul]

Interesting point there, that when I taught MSF Experienced RiderCourses, they were adament that Search Predict Act shouldn't be shortened to an acronym - it had to be kept as the full sequence of words to reinforce the message.

However, I totally agree that keeping out of trouble is by far the best way of riding, rather than relying on reactions and responses.


TBH, if your hazard perception is good, and you take notice of what you identify, the actual physical process of riding is much less important. IMHO :drool:


Of course - just like Sun Tzu says "it is better to win teh battle without fighting", ditto it is better to not crash by not getting into tricky situations in the first place.

BUT: Shit happens. Tricky situations impose themsleves on you, and there is bugger all you can do to prevent it sometimes. When that happens, you want the necessary skill on the bike, and to be in the right positioning etc for max stability and control.






Now this is where our thoughts really drift apart. Part of the problem is that 'training' is all well and good - but doesn't guarantee that anyone will actually do the 'right' thing when needed - particularly when they haven't practiced those skills.

In fact, it's very difficult (almost impossible, in fact) to prove that 'training' actually has any real long-term benefits. Its major benefit is as a 'short-cut' to reduce time spent gaining experience.

I agree- and that is what I meant by training- practical application in a safe environment of what you have learnt. Its one thing to be taucght what those positions and techniques are, but it is completely another to put them into practice consistently and correctly. To this end, practical teaching and experience is important. Especially important is just KNOWING from experience what your bike can do safely (like LEAAAAAAN - that one is bloody important, given most bikes accidents are bikes going off corners by themselves at speeds that were not particularly fast, and which could have been steered around at that speed).

The one time I truly pushed my boundaries on track went into a corner hot, and had no other option than to lay the bike down harder. That day I learnt that I could safely go around that corner (and most others) about 40kph fster than I was. That doesn't mean that i will go intall cornersfastr on teh road, I just know that when I am ridng road speeds, and I go into a corner a bit faster than I thought I was, I CAN lean it harder quite safely (as long as my boduy positioning is already there, and giving me the right leverage).

[SuperMac]

I think we are in danger of having an outbreak of violent agrgeement :banana:


training- practical application in a safe environment of what you have learnt.

practical teaching

My only expansion on this would be:
1. Any practical, 'skills', training must include hazard awareness / risk management in parallel
2. Continued practice of skills, allied to preparedness and expectation so it's 'ready' at the fron of your mind when needed


experience

And, on-road, surviving the experience ;)