Heli-coil came out. Easy to put another one in?

[SPP]

I thought I'd change the oil before ART on Sunday. When I removed my oil drain plug out came (what looks like) a heli-coil. Bugger! last owner must have stripped it and put one in. This is it...

<img src="http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/SPPNZ/oilpan4Small.jpg">


The threads look okay on the pan and the drain bolt (pics). Is it okay to get someone to insert a new coil of the same size or do I need to have it recoiled for a larger bolt?

Where's is a good place to wander into with the oil pan and get them to do it. Any bike shop?


<img src="http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/SPPNZ/oilpan1Small.jpg">

<img src="http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/SPPNZ/oilpan3Small.jpg">

<img src="http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/SPPNZ/oilpan2Small.jpg">

[jellywrestler]

not all shops will have one that size in stock, that could be the hard part check first

[SPP]

M14...shit

[FJRider]

Heli-coils are not ... nor ever intended to be a permanant fix ... those that believe they ARE ... :blank:

The BEST solution is a new sump plate. A new Heli-coil may do the same at the next oil change. I have always believed a heli-coil is a "Quick-fix" (CHEAP) option ... but too often ends up not so cheap.

A drill out of the sump plug hole and re-thread to the next size up is one (other) option.

Whatever option you choose ... any competent engineering outfit should be able (if not willing to ATTEMPT at YOUR risk) to do it ...

[SPP]

Heli-coils are not ... nor ever intended to be a permanant fix ... those that believe they ARE ... :blank:

The BEST solution is a new sump plate. A new Heli-coil may do the same at the next oil change. I have always believed a heli-coil is a "Quick-fix" (CHEAP) option ... but too often ends up not so cheap.

A drill out of the sump plug hole and re-thread to the next size up is one (other) option.

Whatever option you choose ... any competent engineering outfit should be able (if not willing to ATTEMPT at YOUR risk) to do it ...

Thanks FJRider.

I'll wander into an Engineering shop in Puke' and see what they can do. I don't want to miss ART so bung it up for now and then get new pan so I don't run into this again.

[carburator]

I thought I'd change the oil before ART on Sunday. When I removed my oil drain plug out came (what looks like) a heli-coil. Bugger! last owner must have stripped it and put one in. This is it...

The threads look okay on the pan and the drain bolt (pics). Is it okay to get someone to insert a new coil of the same size or do I need to have it recoiled for a larger bolt?
Where's is a good place to wander into with the oil pan and get them to do it. Any bike shop?


you can re heli coil the current threaded hole, we do it all the time in the aircraft industry, or once the thread is damaged beyond
first heli coil we use a twinsert. ( helicoil inside another literally )

the problem with your sump plug is your missing a quater of the threaded bearing surface, ( that slot in the drain ) which effectively
allows the helicoil to bind, hence everytime you remove the sump plug the same issue is sure to happen.

who ever replaces it make sure they use the correct insert tool ( not the stupid pronged one that comes in the pack ) they make life
so much easier and less chance of them buggering it up.

long term, go up a size in sump plugs.

[gatch]

Tap it out to a size bigger and use a torque wrench to apply the correct tension. Ali castings like that are soft and is easily butchered by tightening up thread too much.

Any machine shop should be able to tap it to whatever size/pitch you can find and supply the necessary bolt. It's a 5 minute job. I wouldn't charge you at all.

[SPP]

Engineering shop (Wallace and Heron) in Puke re did the heli-coil phew! They got on to it straight away so it's all back together. Awesome.

Anyway, I'll order a new gasket and pan after this weekend to fix it for good (or whip it off again and get them to tap for a larger bolt).

Cheers

[roadracingoldfart]

Heli-coils are not ... nor ever intended to be a permanant fix ... those that believe they ARE ... :blank:

The BEST solution is a new sump plate. A new Heli-coil may do the same at the next oil change. I have always believed a heli-coil is a "Quick-fix" (CHEAP) option ... but too often ends up not so cheap.

A drill out of the sump plug hole and re-thread to the next size up is one (other) option.

Whatever option you choose ... any competent engineering outfit should be able (if not willing to ATTEMPT at YOUR risk) to do it ...


I beg to differ with your statement on a couple of points. Helicoil is just a brandname not a product type, it is a permanent replacement thread system and can also be labeled a " repair insert" as well. The brand of insert i prefer to use and the brand most redily available in New Zealand is " Recoil" and i have been using it since the early 80s and selling it for many years. This brand is marketed as a " permanent thread repair system" .
A new sump plug of a larger size will / can often make the alloy parent material section operate at a higher temp on an engine and can lead to further issues such as loosening thread insert, they are most often however found to be loose or self removing due to bad installation.
As a past service manager of a Honda workshop we always used a thread insert in all the threads that would be used a few times in the likes of Castrol 6 hour races and such other events, this allowed for multiple removal and installation of bolts in a hurry and they all stayed in a useable state because of the insert.
I have been a mechanical thread (fastener ) specialist since i was accreddited in 1979 so i speak with some authority, i know its a trivial topic but i hate to think the wrong info is passed on just because it sounds logical.

Rant over ....... as you were.

[OllyMoto]

I beg to differ with your statement on a couple of points. Helicoil is just a brandname not a product type, it is a permanent replacement thread system and can also be labeled a " repair insert" as well. The brand of insert i prefer to use and the brand most redily available in New Zealand is " Recoil" and i have been using it since the early 80s and selling it for many years. This brand is marketed as a " permanent thread repair system" .
A new sump plug of a larger size will / can often make the alloy parent material section operate at a higher temp on an engine and can lead to further issues such as loosening thread insert, they are most often however found to be loose or self removing due to bad installation.
As a past service manager of a Honda workshop we always used a thread insert in all the threads that would be used a few times in the likes of Castrol 6 hour races and such other events, this allowed for multiple removal and installation of bolts in a hurry and they all stayed in a useable state because of the insert.
I have been a mechanical thread (fastener ) specialist since i was accreddited in 1979 so i speak with some authority, i know its a trivial topic but i hate to think the wrong info is passed on just because it sounds logical.

Rant over ....... as you were.

Check theese out (hope link woirks ok) http://122.56.32.193:1992/cat/index.html#/595/zoomed#/595/zoomed


They are more expensive to buy the kit initially than the traditional recoil stuff but insetrs themselfs are quite cheap, i believe they offer a superior fix to any thread insert i have found elsewhere. Used these exclusivley in the UK didnt even bother with the helicoil type stuff, but appears this croud (wurth) are the only place you can get this type of system.

[roadracingoldfart]

Check theese out (hope link woirks ok) http://122.56.32.193:1992/cat/index.html#/595/zoomed#/595/zoomed


They are more expensive to buy the kit initially than the traditional recoil stuff but insetrs themselfs are quite cheap, i believe they offer a superior fix to any thread insert i have found elsewhere. Used these exclusivley in the UK didnt even bother with the helicoil type stuff, but appears this croud (wurth) are the only place you can get this type of system.


There is also the type known as a " Keysert" which is used in die setting and moulding dies alot, especially in Alloy's.
There is a good representation of all these products from a few places i am aware of , Tradezone outlets will have them , so will S.K.F and Seaco Bearings. The Recoil brand is marketed by Patience and Nicholson . They have a good range and as i have said the product is great. Contace them to find the nearest stockist i guess.

[carburator]

There is also the type known as a " Keysert" which is used in die setting and moulding dies alot, especially in Alloy's.
There is a good representation of all these products from a few places i am aware of , Tradezone outlets will have them , so will S.K.F and Seaco Bearings. The Recoil brand is marketed by Patience and Nicholson . They have a good range and as i have said the product is great. Contace them to find the nearest stockist i guess.

Keysert's are good, however if you don't have the broaching tool for the tangs
it gets a little messy ( and don't let some guy behind a counter say you can just
bang the tangs in with a hammer, you might get away with it on soft alloy but steel
I can tell you from personal experince ( the F404 motor is riddled with the bleepers )
its a whole new ball game.

[Flip]

The problem with this one is that a large section of the insert is not supported by the hole, so it can move about, unwind, snap and fuck itself.

I would suggest that any machine shop could make a steel threaded bush and locktight it in with high strength retaining compound, then spotface the sealing compression washer surface flat again.

Personally speaking as somebody who did his time in a machine shop, I have seen a lot of helicoils put in by grease monkeys into short blind holes so far that the bottom of the helicoil thread was binding on the bolt, or drilled with a battery drill not square, or thinking that a 10.5mm drill is close enough to a 10.2.

Oh and fuck I hate metric thread form BSW was a much better thread for alloy castings.

[EJK]

<img width="400" src="http://www.getprice.com.au/images/uploadimg/1713/dsc_5617.jpg" />
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[F5 Dave]

Yeah hillarimouse. but we're talking of a sump bolt & some fucker might try that. Consequences of the bolt dropping out & coating the rear tyre in oil are not so flash.

Bigger bolt option is a potentual dog, as often there is not the room & finding a bigger suitable bolt & washer is often a mission. I've got a piece of ally welded in with a nice 'ole tapped the right size, but sumps are casting metal & they don't weld nice. Don't want to distort it, but can tack for strength & devcon to seal if cleaned up properly.

Best option I found was take it to the local engine re-conditioners (there used to be heaps, but its a dying trade) & get a Timesert http://www.timesert.com/ put in from the inside. Has a step so can't fall out. + & here's a big one, there is an unsupported section that they can slot (as it is a 1 piece insert, not a coil) so the oil from the bottom of the pan drains. A helicoil type insert won't allow the last 6mm of oil to drain. Have to be able to take out the sump plate though.

[roadracingoldfart]

Oh and fuck I hate metric thread form BSW was a much better thread for alloy castings.



Ohh stop it .....

BSW was a pommy cockup and then they tried BSF and before that they had BA and several others. All the time the europe eans had a good thread form that can be rolled or machined and was simple to formulate tto any application. And dont get me started on the bloody Yanks and thier abortive threads. Metric is tops for the user and the designer.
Now that 2 cents rite there aye.