Long distance event safety

[rastuscat]

Heres a hypothetical question.

If, on Friday morning this week, I was going to a meeting regarding a long distance motorcycle endurance event, and the meeting was to address concerns regarding fatigue and potential speed, what things might I raise?

Give me ideas as to how the risks can be mitigated. The organizer is worried about the potential risk.

FYI, I wear a blue suit. I want the event to happen, how can we make it safer?

[darkwolf]

Would it be possible to get in contact with some of the store owners along the way to offer "refresher stations" or something similar. A place where bikers can stop for 5 minutes and stretch the extremities?

[tnarg]

I take it this isn't a race then? Some ideas- Enforced rest stops with possible assessment of participant for signs of fatigue. Timed points along route that if they break out of time then you know they have been speeding.

[Gremlin]

Interesting question Mr ratuscat :shifty:

First and foremost, the question you ask, imho, cannot be replied to in general fashion, simply because you can't apply the same level to everyone.

For someone that has never ridden more than 200km with lots of breaks, you can't expect them to ride 500km in less than a day, it would never be safe. At the other end of the scale, there are people that can ride 500km without stopping once.

Items such as bike inspection to make sure it's safe, or pre-qualification (ie, have to have done something similar previously) to do certain levels is possible? Long distance riding is the same as a marathon. You have to be fit enough to do it, and you can't rock up and just do it with no preparation. The sooner the riders participating realise this, the better.

The difference of course, is that the runner is doing 5kph if they fall over, but a motorcyclist is doing 100kph.

[Scuba_Steve]

Visors must be removed, minimum speed of 80km/h... that should keep people awake this time of year :devil2:

[Gremlin]

I take it this isn't a race then? Some ideas- Enforced rest stops with possible assessment of participant for signs of fatigue. Timed points along route that if they break out of time then you know they have been speeding.
This is good, but it assumes that there is one prescribed route. What if there isn't? Unless there is a choke point, as such, then it's possible to miss the stations. I suppose the option here, if there is a station, is to check for fatigue, some kind of test (if you want to go overboard).

If there is only one route, there is increased traffic on that route, instead of splitting the "load" as such. Care should also be taken in the route planning itself. Routes that have dead-ends for example, require motorcycles to go there and back, and if you have one route, your chances of head-ons or suchlike are heavily increased (there and backs are often minor roads, sometimes narrow enough not to have a centre line) with so many motorcycles. Lets also face it though, if there is one route, the cops will be somewhere and while I don't speed in normal riding, I would be annoyed to get pinged when overtaking (where I'm OK to admit I speed... I'm not hanging around on the other side of the road for longer than I need to). It's not like my GSA/truck can go that fast anyway :laugh:

In events I've done where route choice is allowed, I prefer to stay away from narrow dead ends, or do them when the bulk of traffic is not around, just an easier way to allow for a bit more safety.

[darkwolf]

Further to some of the suggestions above, I think a rider check would be a good idea i.e. if someone turns up on a bike unsuited to long distance in gear that they are likely to suffer fatigue from then maybe have a specific chat or assign a buddy. In fact the buddy system could be a great idea.

Provisions of food and drink at start point?

Maybe even organise a projector to show a clip of how fatigue can effect a rider over the course of a ride. It might be ignored but at least you tried to make people aware.

[rastuscat]

Liking what I'm reading.

I'll print your ideas and table them.

I had thought about getting the Swedish Women's Volleyball team at a roadside checkpoint offering shoulder massages. Trouble is, would anyone set off again?:innocent:

[Gremlin]

I had thought about getting the Swedish Women's Volleyball team at a roadside checkpoint offering shoulder massages. Trouble is, would anyone set off again?:innocent:
Couldn't I just put one on the back seat... if it was a multi day event, I'd even give her a bed for the night... I know, I'm that kind.

I'm also happy to test this theory out in advance for you... you supply girls, I'll do the riding :woohoo:

[haydes55]

Coffee sculling competition at checkpoints. Lucky dip as to whether it is iced coffee or piping hot :devil2:

[tigertim20]

if the route is variable, then there must still be a way to set up say 6 check points that are driver reviver type things.
That way you could make it that participants must stop at one of these checkpoints and rest for xx minutes, at least xx times during the event.
Im sure theres a way to set the stops up so that people can still vary their route, AND get to the minimum number reviver stops.

[nzspokes]

Compulsory stops for set times. With food included in the entry price.

Provision for water on the bike, eg Camel Back type system. Again compulsory.

I dont think restricting bike type will work as there will always be nutbars doing it on odd bikes. :laugh:

[SMOKEU]

Make the riders get high on P. They won't be getting tired till the buzz wears off.

[nzspokes]

Compulsory slow speed test at each stop. Something that once the riders tired its hard to do. If they fail, there out or have to take a number of hours out.

[Ocean1]

Require submission of a ride plan, which will remain confidential until after the ride.

The plan must have specified number of features, coffee break, 10 min walks, meal breaks, at least one 20 min ocean swim, wild monky sex with at least one consenting waitress, etc etc.

Ride log to be maintained, to be scored against submitted ride plan, winner decided by best match.

Extra points for wild rampant monkey sex during mid-winter beach swim / meal.




Or you could, y'know, just assume that the participants are aware that they're responsible for their own safety and need neither their hands held or their eggs sucked. 'Cause there's actually no other way it ever works, eh.

[Ender EnZed]

Some ideas- Enforced rest stops with possible assessment of participant for signs of fatigue. Timed points along route that if they break out of time then you know they have been speeding.

I can't imagine that sort of thing being very popular.


If, on Friday morning this week, I was going to a meeting regarding a long distance motorcycle endurance event, and the meeting was to address concerns regarding fatigue and potential speed, what things might I raise?

Give me ideas as to how the risks can be mitigated. The organizer is worried about the potential risk.

FYI, I wear a blue suit. I want the event to happen, how can we make it safer?

I suspect that most people who participate in events like the TT2000 or the Grand Challenge have some idea about what they're getting themselves into, even the first timers. Presumably any event like that would have a riders' briefing in which fatigue is discussed. I.e. You get fatigued more quickly if you're cold or riding at 160km/h etc. You could check what the organiser has prepared for this.

Perhaps the entry form could have a short questionnaire along the lines of "What's the longest ride you've done in a day?" "When was it?" "How tired were you on a scale of 1-10?". Rather than this creating a criteria for entry (and lies) it would be to help the organiser identify riders that they might want to talk to personally to make sure they understand about fatigue.

[MarkW]

Having successfully completed a number of the Rusty Nuts 1000 MILES in 24 hours events there are a number of things that can be done by the organisers to reduce risks:

Pre entries ONLY are allowed with the close off date for entries at least a month prior to the event.

The entry fee is set to a level that reduces the casual type rider and gives the organiser sufficient funds to offer manned check points at regular intervals.

The start of the event is close to adequate supplies of good accommodation and food. This way riders should be better rested prior to the start.

ALL motorcycles are carefully checked prior to be allowed to start – particular care given to tyre tread depth and condition, brake pad thickness, steering, chain lube and adjustment and lighting.

Riders gear is also checked carefully.

A detailed riders briefing is compulsory for all to attend. HUGE emphasis on “IT IS NOT A RACE”

The planned route is available for all to understand early, gas stations and checkpoints all clearly marked.

The actual start time for riding is set so that initial riding is in daylight, then the night riding follows with a much longer daylight period available after darkness than was available before darkness. The 1000 miler used to have the first bike away at 2pm.

No more than 2 or 3 riders leave together – and there is a 1 or 2 minute gap between each rider or group leaving.

Manned checkpoints with sensible people who have the power to “pluck” a rider off the road for a compulsory rest if deemed necessary. Each of these checkpoints have a full list of all participants in their leaving order – if some one goes missing at least the organiser knows between where and where and when the rider disappeared.

After all riders clear each point the point advises event control of this.

All riders have an emergency contact number (land and cell) for the event control.

TWO EXPERIENCED tail end charlies follow 10 minutes after the first rider leaves and stay back until all riders have been through a checkpoint and these two only do the first half of the event. TWO DIFFERENT EXPERIENCED tail end charlies do the second half of the event, again leaving 10 minutes after the last rider through.

Checkpoints have a closure time – if you arrive after the appointed time then the participant can not continue as there is inadequate time remaining for the event to be completed safely and legally.

I hope that the above helps.

[shafty]

I'm with Ocean1, - Riders to submit a ride plan, including answers to questions such as:

- What refreshment stops/times/durations have you planned?
- What is Plan B should you have a mechicanical problem?

Etc - get them thinking...

- What the Rider would do if fatigue set in - eg how would they exit the ride, eg Motel, Family Member lives at X

Good luck

[Headbanger]

Tell everyone to stay home. Obviously with this amount of concern they just aren't up to it.


Follow their own road, go for a road of any length that suits without some douche-bag organizer worrying about the safety aspects.

Its bullshit, and everyone knows it, NZ is so small that long distance isn't even possible, You can eat breakfast, get on the bike,hit the end of the island and be back home for an evening fucking meal on the same day.

Whose this ride for, The girl guides?

Got some biscuits for sale?

[tigertim20]

Tell everyone to stay home. Obviously with this amount of concern they just aren't up to it.


Follow their own road, go for a road of any length that suits without some douche-bag organizer worrying about the safety aspects.

Its bullshit, and everyone knows it, NZ is so small that long distance isn't even possible, You can eat breakfast, get on the bike,hit the end of the island and be back home for an evening fucking meal on the same day.

Whose this ride for, The girl guides?

Got some biscuits for sale?

you are right, it IS up to the riders, BUT
If the organisers arent seen to be doing something proactive to 'support the safety and wellbeing of participants' then events like it will be shit down.
why can people not see that?

You got to roll with the punches, a bit of paperwork aint gonna stop those who actually want to do it anyway, and if doing so is what is required to get the powers that be to fuck off and let people have a fucking great time on a ride, then so be it.

[Berries]

I hate to say it, but education. Everyone is different so enforced stops wont work for all of us - and I don't like being told what to do anyway. While people need to know the signs of fatigue they also need to know when they really really really have to take a break. Might be hard on an endurance race, sorry, ride, but fatigue is a prick we all think we can ride around by opening the visor and singing Kylie songs at full tit and necking bottles of V. When it hits it hits and might be 5km before or after an enforced stop. Get people to truly understand the consequences and you might get some people to take note. Doubtful though, I've only got another 150km to go, I'm sure I can do it even though my head is nodding so much it hits the tank.

The obvious alternative is to exempt those who pre-registered for the event from the open road speed limit. This will reduce the potential influence of fatigue by them finishing before it gets dark, and their exposure to risk will be reduced dramatically. Thinking further ahead for your Friday meeting, perhaps minimum speed limits should be introduced to head off any possible problems related to tiredness. How does 150km/h sound? Throw in the word intervention a couple of times, bang on about Safer Journeys for a while and you might be on to a winner.

Could even be record registrations for an event run by the filth. Think of the PR.

[Jantar]

As the organiser of one such event, the Chatto Creek 1000 miler, I can list some of the precautions that we take in our event.

I pre ride the route a couple of weeks before the event to check on road conditions, major road works, places of likely sunstrike etc. The route is made available to riders at an informal briefing and social evening the night before, and the route board and route sheet also list known hazards.

A formal briefing is given to all riders 30 minutes before the start, and to cover my own arse I video this briefing and keep the memory card so that it is available to anyone who wishes to investigate any incidents that may occur (none have so far). The mere knowledge that the briefing has been videoed ensures that I get the briefing right and I believe it also makes the participants take more notice. Riders leave Chatto Creek at midday.

All bikes must be registered and have a current wof and the rider signs a form stating that he is aware of the hazards involved in particpating in an endurance event and has the appropriate class of licence for his motorcycle.

A mechanic from the local bike shop carries out inconspicuous inspection of the bikes looking at tyres, chains, general condition etc.

There are a mixture of self checkpoints, where photo evidence is required, and manned checkpoints. One of the manned checkpoints, usually around the halfway point includes a compulsory hot meal (cost included in the entry fee). This checkpoint is also a great opportunity for riders to check their progress. We have had riders pull out at this point because although they still feel OK realiose that it is now dark and they still have the same distance to go. A further manned checkpoint at the 3/4 distance mark is mainly so the person manning the checkpoint can assess a rider's fatigue and recommend a rest if required. Manned checkpoints are only opened at such a time that anyone whose average speed exceeds the speed limit will find themselves waiting for the checkpoint to open.

A cooked breakfast is also included in the entry fee.

Riding 1000 miles (1610 km) in 24 hours does not require a high speed. It has been successfully completed on a 175cc Yamaha, and if I could find a suitable 125 cc two stroke, I'd have a go on that. The overall average speed is only 67 kmh, and if you take off the time required for the compulsory stops and fuel etc, then the average speed required climbs to 73 kmh.

Most riders complete the trip in 18 to 20 hours which is a moving average of 85 to 95 kmh.

I generally try to keep the route on scenic roads during daylight hours, and more main roads during the hours of darkness.

As an example, last year we went to Karamea via the west coast, with daylight riding all the way to Karamea. Sunstrike from the setting sun was listed as a hazard on the Karamea Road. Westport on the way out from karamea was the halfway point and the compulsory meal was at Reefton. Then it was over the Lewis Pass, and SH1 to Rakaia where another manned checkpoint assesed the riders. Thompsons track to Mayfield then through Tekapo and Omarama back to Chatto creek.

On another note, most riders who ride this event also ride the event that I believe you are attending the meeting for.

[Woodman]

Or you could, y'know, just assume that the participants are aware that they're responsible for their own safety and need neither their hands held or their eggs sucked. 'Cause there's actually no other way it ever works, eh.

Wot he said.

Submission of plans and a lot of the other stuff suggested will be the beginning of the end for this kind of event.

The process has already started.

[5150]

To turn the tables around a bit. Should there be a info sheet avaliable for the riders? Especially the first timers who never done it before but who want to try? And what info would you recommend goes into such brochure



Also maybe information evening / video night for the less experienced / first timers who want to do it but haven before. Make sure the info evening is few weeks / manths ahead of the event so people can prepare them selves

[SPman]

and if I could find a suitable 125 cc two stroke, I'd have a go on that Yamaha AS1/2/3?

[jellywrestler]

A simple chat with the Rusty Nuts team who've organised the 1000 miler for twenty something years and had very limited incidents should suffice mr Rastus cat

[Jantar]

... NZ is so small that long distance isn't even possible, You can eat breakfast, get on the bike,hit the end of the island and be back home for an evening fucking meal on the same day.....

I knew Speed Triples were quick, but 1800 km between breakfast and dinner? That is moving. :eek:

Oh! I see you mean the near end of the island. :rolleyes: That one doesn't count as an endurance ride, and it only takes from lunch to dinner for the return trip.

[Mystic13]

To turn the tables around a bit. Should there be a info sheet avaliable for the riders? Especially the first timers who never done it before but who want to try? And what info would you recommend goes into such brochure



Also maybe information evening / video night for the less experienced / first timers who want to do it but haven before. Make sure the info evening is few weeks / manths ahead of the event so people can prepare them selves

What MarkW and Jantar applies.

Doing the Rusty Nuts Grand Challenge as a first timer you;

- read about others views on how to manage
- talk to others
- plan and usually over do it a little

My first time I got the gear about right and the main aims were keeping cold and wet out.

22.5 hours of riding with stops for gas and food.

The Rusty guys will tell you to be cautious in the first sector that seems to be where a lot of accidents happen.

Check out their site;


http://www.rustynuts.org.nz/

What I've learnt since means I'd carry the same gear. And if I need to sleep include a quick sleep stop.

My second year I arrived needing a long sleep and bailed out in the middle of the night. It's not an event you can enter sleep deprived.

There won't be much you can do to limit speeds. Except advise caution, advise don't do it, because the success of the event relies on people making it back home.

Fatigue needs to be addressed with food, liquids, and if needed sleep. A lot of riders ride in groups so that sorts some stuff as well.

Endurance events by their nature are going to push the limits of rider and machine.

I remember riding through the Desert Road around 5am with a giant snow cone building up on the windshield as it lightly snowed.

Great events to be involved in.

Crazy, but no where as crazy as swingers on sidecars.

[Ender EnZed]

If the organisers arent seen to be doing something proactive to 'support the safety and wellbeing of participants' then events like it will be shit down.
why can people not see that?

Are there really any issues with the way things are being done now though? I have no evidence either way but I thought long distance events in NZ had a pretty good reputation.

[FJRider]

I suspect that most people who participate in events like the TT2000 or the Grand Challenge have some idea about what they're getting themselves into.

There are some that believe 500 km's is a long distance ride. Proven riding experience, prior to the intended ride. (and length of time with the appropiate is not proof)

Check points that record time arrived/left incase they go missing. It gives starting points to start looking ...

[Maha]

''Where are the best burgers found on this ride and when is the first coffee stop''...are two questions that need a quick answer to avoid having things thrown in your general direction by the masses.

[Gremlin]

There won't be much you can do to limit speeds. Except advise caution, advise don't do it, because the success of the event relies on people making it back home.

Fatigue needs to be addressed with food, liquids, and if needed sleep. A lot of riders ride in groups so that sorts some stuff as well.

Endurance events by their nature are going to push the limits of rider and machine.
Many automatically assume speed is a given for such long distances. They clearly haven't tried long distance then. The faster you go, there is an exponential-like increase in the amount of energy consumed to do so. Seen it plenty of times in long distance riding that those without experience that bolt out the gate end up either pulling out or exhausted.

You need to find the sweet spot, sometimes just under the limit (depends from rider to rider), that you can easily maintain, using very little energy, just nudging the bike around. Just a 5-10kph increase can see you go from nudging the bike to pushing it around... big difference in energy used.

[Shadowjack]

To turn the tables around a bit. Should there be a info sheet avaliable for the riders? Especially the first timers who never done it before but who want to try? And what info would you recommend goes into such brochure

Also maybe information evening / video night for the less experienced / first timers who want to do it but haven before. Make sure the info evening is few weeks / manths ahead of the event so people can prepare them selves

A South Island event I have participated in twice now has a couple of information sheets attached to it's website. As a first timer, I found these very helpful.

Personally, the less constraints, the better. I find the format of events I have participated in so far to be fine.

[Kickaha]

Crazy, but no where as crazy as swingers on sidecars.
Maybe, I've done both and they're both hard work but in a different way

I'm not sure I'd bother entering any "endurance event" that had compulsory stops for set periods and or breakfast/tea, I think I'd find it to hard to get moving again, gas and go is my normal method of travel

I dont think I'd done a rider bigger than 400km in one day when I did my first 1600km run and it wasn't as hard as I thought it'd be

[caspernz]

Many automatically assume speed is a given for such long distances. They clearly haven't tried long distance then. The faster you go, there is an exponential-like increase in the amount of energy consumed to do so. Seen it plenty of times in long distance riding that those without experience that bolt out the gate end up either pulling out or exhausted.

You need to find the sweet spot, sometimes just under the limit (depends from rider to rider), that you can easily maintain, using very little energy, just nudging the bike around. Just a 5-10kph increase can see you go from nudging the bike to pushing it around... big difference in energy used.

Ain't that the truth! Crank up the pace and the energy required increases exponentially, regardless of the vehicle you're in/on. At a chilled out pace I can easily top 1000 kms in about 12 hours, including at least two fuel stops, a lunch break, a few toilet stops etc.

[FJRider]

I dont think I'd done a rider bigger than 400km in one day when I did my first 1600km run and it wasn't as hard as I thought it'd be

My first 1600 km ride didn't start untill midday ... it was a long day and night.

My previous longest ride was a 600 km ride.

I believe the long rides are just as much a mental thing ... as a physicall thing. If your headspace isn't into it ... it just becomes a chore.

[rastuscat]

Meeting went well, really positive.

Many points of view discussed.

The event will be going ahead with every rider encased in no less than 225 kg of cotton wool.

Seriously though, it was interesting to talk about the shambles after the media blitz on last years event. I recall that the Popos were credited with taking the website down after it became politically hot. Learned today that it was taken down by the organiser, due to the massive media blitz attracting too much heat. Made sense.

Hoping the event goes ahead, might even do it myself. :Punk:

[Oakie]

Hoping the event goes ahead, might even do it myself. :Punk:

Do it on your work bike!

[Subike]

Do it on your work bike!

agree and then some chch riders can go as support behind you

[nzspokes]

Do it on your work bike!

Well to be fair thats not a bad idea. And say youve got your ticket book. Then riders know they can be caught.

And best of all you get overtime!!:Punk:

[rastuscat]

It,d be easy to do it on the work bike but I'd lose my job for vehicle conversion.

Still, a nice thought. If I got behind schedule it'd just be on with the bells and whistles, and prob solved :laugh:

[Jantar]

...Still, a nice thought. If I got behind schedule it'd just be on with the bells and whistles, and prob solved :laugh:
Or you could sit behind Gremlin and pretend to be chasing him. :yes: Then I could sit behind you and pretend you were giving me a high speed escort. :innocent:

[Oakie]

Just call it creative rostering ...

Or if you were rostered for the start of the event you could say you were in pursuit of some naughty bikers who wouldn't stop.

[nzspokes]

Or you could sit behind Gremlin and pretend to be chasing him. :yes: Then I could sit behind you and pretend you were giving me a high speed escort. :innocent:

Have you ever sat behind Gremlin? It sounds like air force one taking off.

[Subike]

Or we could contact Toy Collector and borrow an old MOT Honda that still has all the gear on it.
Im sure Rasta would have fun being a keystone cop for a day or so

[rastuscat]

Or we could contact Toy Collector and borrow an old MOT Honda that still has all the gear on it.
Im sure Rasta would have fun being a keystone cop for a day or so

An idea is born.

[Jantar]

Have you ever sat behind Gremlin? It sounds like air force one taking off.

Yes I have. Fortunately we had to stop for fuel and Gremlin didn't. :laugh:

[nzspokes]

Yes I have. Fortunately we had to stop for fuel and Gremlin didn't. :laugh:

He doesnt stop for petrol stations, they stop for him. :laugh:

[Gremlin]

I don't know why you lot are so neurotic about gas... can't everyone get 600km+ from a tank? :scratch:

Good to hear ratuscat... now I have to figure out what roads I want to do after the event... haven't done Old Dunstan yet... nor Hakataramea or Danseys in the day time... hmmmm so many choices.

[DEVVIL]

I don't know why you lot are so neurotic about gas... can't everyone get 600km+ from a tank? :scratch:



Sure can, if I push for 200+ks:scooter:

[Premature Accelerato]

There are more ways to skin a cat then one. eg when I was in my teens I rode from the Manawatu to Waitangi on a 250cc trail bike in a day with heaps of gear and was not tired when I got there. In my 20s I rode up to Auckland with a pillion on a RD350 in an afternoon and was not tired. When the fuel crisis was on I rode from Wgtn to Whangarei on a Friday night on a GT750 with an auxilary fuel tank I made, nonstop and was not trired (didnt even have to stop for a pee). In my late 20s I regularly rode from Wgtn to Omaha (up by Warkworth) on Friday nights to work on a bach I was building and then rode back on Sunday afternoon after working my arse off and was not tired. In my 30s I rode from Auckland to the Manawatu on my YZF600 in "a very short time" and was not tired. And now, in my 50s I recently rode from Wgtn to Omaha on a VFR800 AND back in a day after mowing the lawns and must admit I was a bit buggered. My point is, everyone is different, what bike suits some may not suit another and every one experiences and deals with fatigue in a different manner and to the same degree. What keeps me going are Snickers bars and small amounts of water, good bike gear and continual movement on the bike.

[Hitcher]

People who do endurance rides either know what's in store or find out soon enough. Checkpoint officials keep a close eye (particularly during the latter checkpoints) about how people are going time-wise as well as their general condition. The Rusties will pull people out if their checkpointers have any doubts or concerns.

There's trouble afoot in officialdom about this whole area of endeavour. The Rusties aren't running a GC this year, partly as a response to the concerns of officials about these sorts of events.

[Ocean1]

There's trouble afoot in officialdom about this whole area of endeavour. The Rusties aren't running a GC this year, partly as a response to the concerns of officials about these sorts of events.

What officials?

And within what mandate do they consider they have anything at all to say about any group's lawful activities?

[Gremlin]

and within what mandate do they consider they have anything at all to say about any group's lawful activities?
There's a bit more to it than that... there is a lot of pressure on organisers, some cannot afford to butt heads with the law for other reasons...

[Ocean1]

There's a bit more to it than that... there is a lot of pressure on organisers, some cannot afford to butt heads with the law for other reasons...

I'm sure there is. But don't we have enough inteferance with our lives from pit-pickin' legal compliance issues without some bully-boy toerags stickin' their tuppence worth in?

Tell 'em to fuck off, and then deal with the consequences. If that's too hard to deal with I'll help, and I wouldn't be alone.

[Mystic13]

People who do endurance rides either know what's in store or find out soon enough. Checkpoint officials keep a close eye (particularly during the latter checkpoints) about how people are going time-wise as well as their general condition. The Rusties will pull people out if their checkpointers have any doubts or concerns.

There's trouble afoot in officialdom about this whole area of endeavour. The Rusties aren't running a GC this year, partly as a response to the concerns of officials about these sorts of events.

That's a bugger. It's been a great event with a great history. (And I think a great safety record)

The Rusties seem a wise old bunch. I'd like to know more bout what's going on. It'll be a real shame to lose this event and their other events.

[FJRider]

I don't know why you lot are so neurotic about gas... can't everyone get 600km+ from a tank? :scratch:



I could ... if 300 km's of that were downhill ... :devil2:

[Ender EnZed]

There's trouble afoot in officialdom about this whole area of endeavour. The Rusties aren't running a GC this year, partly as a response to the concerns of officials about these sorts of events.

What officials?


There's a bit more to it than that... there is a lot of pressure on organisers, some cannot afford to butt heads with the law for other reasons...

Pressure from who? What laws are there that events like this could be straying near?

[Gremlin]

Pressure from who? What laws are there that events like this could be straying near?
The event itself isn't straying near any laws... after all, anyone is allowed to ride on any public road.

As I said, there are other reasons, which I'm not going to go into, and is for those who it does affect, to comment on.

Ultimately, I want to see these events continue, as I've partaken in several and it's a great way to get a like-minded bunch together. :banana:

[caspernz]

The event itself isn't straying near any laws... after all, anyone is allowed to ride on any public road.

As I said, there are other reasons, which I'm not going to go into, and is for those who it does affect, to comment on.

Ultimately, I want to see these events continue, as I've partaken in several and it's a great way to get a like-minded bunch together. :banana:

Yep you're right of course. I remember about 25 years ago when the Auckland Uni bike club used to head out, at times we'd have our own Police M/C escort. Mostly just to lend a bit of guidance, at other times it would be a full-on turnout of the WOF and REGO check brigade.

It's a shame the PC nonsense gets in the way of having group fun, but hey, it's always a small group of heroes who spoil it for the majority isn't it?

[rastuscat]

Yep you're right of course. I remember about 25 years ago when the Auckland Uni bike club used to head out, at times we'd have our own Police M/C escort. Mostly just to lend a bit of guidance, at other times it would be a full-on turnout of the WOF and REGO check brigade.

It's a shame the PC nonsense gets in the way of having group fun, but hey, it's always a small group of heroes who spoil it for the majority isn't it?

25 years back there were no Police riders. It was MoT or nobody. I was one of the nobody's back then, being a snake in Orkers. Rode on a couple of the local rides back then, like the Sherrif riding shotgun.

We are fully behind the endurance rides in our village. We met the orgy-niser in rhe OP with a view to understanding the event better, so we can allay any fears in our company re runnin it. Luckily it looks like it might even be better than before, and potentially safer. How can that be bad? Interesting turns being talked about, the orgy guy is a real lateral thinker.

No wish to control anything other than the over reaction one of our managers had last year.

Donuts.

[Bald Eagle]

25 years back there were no Police riders. It was MoT or nobody. I was one of the nobody's back then, being a snake in Orkers. .

Don't forget the Auck City Traffic and Mt Albert Traffic varieties as well - jeeze must be getting old.

[caspernz]

Don't forget the Auck City Traffic and Mt Albert Traffic varieties as well - jeeze must be getting old.

Got me worried now, and only on account of my age.... No not really, all that really mattered was that the disparity between the good officials and the enthusiastic enforcers of old and nowadays, is much of a muchness...

I know this is a very generalised statement here, but if an organiser has the nous to quell the troublesome 1% then officialdom can be kept at bay for a little while longer. Thinking back to the Auckland Uni days, misbehave and you'd get a quiet word from one of the fellas organising the ride. And that's quite apart from the pre-ride drill.

Not much point focusing all our anger onto the Police, even if one of their managers gets rather enthusiastic?

Good on Rastuscat for taking a pro-active approach after the TT drama created by a new Police manager :2thumbsup

[gijoe1313]

The event itself isn't straying near any laws... after all, anyone is allowed to ride on any public road.

As I said, there are other reasons, which I'm not going to go into, and is for those who it does affect, to comment on.

Ultimately, I want to see these events continue, as I've partaken in several and it's a great way to get a like-minded bunch together. :banana:

And therein lies the problem, the company you have to keep! :rolleyes: Never has there been a more disparate collection of scum and villany, laced with depraved morals and questionable tastes! Arrrrrr!

[nzspokes]

And therein lies the problem, the company you have to keep! :rolleyes: Never has there been a more disparate collection of scum and villany, laced with depraved morals and questionable tastes! Arrrrrr!

Sounds like my kinda crowd.:cool:

[longwayfromhome]

I know this is a bit late, but one line of research that will pay some dividends is to look at the American experience... here is a good place to start... http://www.ironbutt.com/about/default.cfm . They have a good set of tips here... http://www.ironbutt.com/tech/aowprintout.cfm . Though their riding conditions are very different (generally), fatigue is fatigue, and there is a wealth of experience for interested parties to tap into. From my experience plus talking/reading with two very successful US endurance riders, safety mainly comes down to personal responsibility.

[CookMySock]

[...] the meeting was to address concerns regarding fatigue and potential speed, what things might I raise? [...] how can we make it safer?You will be unable. The more you do, the more people will become complacent, and your good intentions will backfire.

IMO, the best way to ensure(sic) safety is to rudely and bluntly inform people there is no safety net, is not going to BE any safety net, and their fuckup is 100% their own problem, kthx bye!. This way, everyone is on high alert to not fuckup, which is as good as you'll get.

[Maha]

I know this is a bit late, but one line of research that will pay some dividends is to look at the American experience... here is a good place to start... http://www.ironbutt.com/about/default.cfm . They have a good set of tips here... http://www.ironbutt.com/tech/aowprintout.cfm . Though their riding conditions are very different (generally), fatigue is fatigue, and there is a wealth of experience for interested parties to tap into. From my experience plus talking/reading with two very successful US endurance riders, safety mainly comes down to personal responsibility.

It certainly does...in a group riding situation, all that the Ride organiser can do is, basically what Steve has said below.


You will be unable. The more you do, the more people will become complacent, and your good intentions will backfire.

IMO, the best way to ensure(sic) safety is to rudely and bluntly inform people there is no safety net, is not going to BE any safety net, and their fuckup is 100% their own problem, kthx bye!. This way, everyone is on high alert to not fuckup, which is as good as you'll get.

I have to agree with that Steve..more often than not, if a rider bins, there is always some 'other' reason as to why it happened.
What goes on inside the helmet is a good place look first.

[LBD]

Whoops, come in a bit late...serves me right for not paying attention...Guess the "Friday meeting" with the event organiser is over by now.

Some general ramblings in no order....

1) Others have already mentioned the TWO key factors in completing such endurance runs....Know your own ability and Recognise the signs of fatigue. Hand in hand with that is being prepared to quit or lower the mark rather than push on and take risks. I know what I can handle and year before last, after 2 hours of patchy fog in the middle of the night I knew I reached that limit . I pulled over at the Athol coffee shop at 4 am, sat on a seat out side and had a "power nap" woke refreshed and carried on.

2) Last TT, I set out to prove a point, that Diamond could be acheived legally with a good break. I used a spot messenger/tracker to verify and completed Diamond at speeds within the speed limit plus the 4% tolerance that weekend, and included a hot shower, dinner, 6 1/2 hours sleep and breakfast....cooked by a top son inlaw at 4 am.

3)Coffee ...buggar that, 5 minutes after drinking coffee, I am busting for a pee and riding with legs crossed.

4) Compulsary stops. With the exception of those with physicological disorders compelling them to carry 27000L gas, the rest of us have to stop every couple of hours to refuel either at a servo or to top up from the jerry can we carry, they are the compulsary stops. Every stop for me involves a juice or choc milk and a bar of sorts. I know from experience this is enough to keep me going between the mainbreaks. I also know that I am good for 2 hours between these small breaks. Half the fun of runs like the TT are the planning, studying maps, organising fuel stops and breaks etc...that is what made the last TT so enjoyable for me...to take the planning factor out by having a largly predetermined route, would take much of the fun out of the event.

5) I would be keen to see police endorsment and involvment even if only for the organisers sake...to be seen working with the authorities will help ensure the event continues and would minimise the organisers concerns of liabilities. I would not object to a penalty organised in conjunction with the police...these are the regos of the participants...if any of these gets a speed infringment they will be suspended from the following years event..

6) Fatigue is interesting...I beleive I have had an advantage over most at the last three TTs....Jet lag. I arrive in the country knackered on Thursday arvo, Pick up the bike go to rellies and crash. Wake up at midnight, go to the shed and prepare the bike, sort gear etc. Have a good breakfast, natter etc, back to bed about 9 am and wake 4 pm ready for the start of the event...all fresh for a ride through the night because my body clock is out of kilter NZ time

7) Lack of sleep or long working hours experience may be a factor...I arrive to the rally from regular 12 hour days and 6 hours sleep per night...I wonder how that sort of "training" affects our ability to stay focused for long hours in the saddle? I cannot comment on the benifit of training rides as it is 4 months at least between rides for me.

8) I mentioned small snack and drinks every fuel stop... Stopping for a big feed for me is a bad move when the hours are getting on...with a comfy full tummy all I want to do is nod off.

9) Foggy conditions and the early dawn twilight make the eyes strain and again that is a killer, I try and stop for the 1/2 hour around dawn. Lighting is another key factor....the better the lighting the less strain on the eyes the less tiring the ride is. This bollocks about only allowing 2 forward lights on a bike of 55W is wrong. Bikes should be allowed the same high beam power as a car.

10) Warm and dry...when the body is cold it burns energy to try and stay warm, and then tires easily. Good gear to keep warm and dry is essential to completeing these runs safely...luxuries like heated grips and a heated vest....(and socks cough cough) all help conserve the body's energy and help stave off fatigue.

I fully appreciate the reasons the organisers are seeking to apease the nay sayers...in todays world it seems someone is always to blame....and todays event organisers are wrongly being blamed for the mistakes or in-experience of participants who should be themselves to blame.

I would like to see a friendly police presence at such events, I would be happy to see a less police friendly approach to irresponsible behavior on such events, but not paint the entire event with the same brush as the irresponsible few.

I would not like to see these events rigidly structured with set points at set times and compulsary stops for so long....that would take most of the fun out of it for me.

Any way enough dribbling for one night.

[nzspokes]

25 years back there were no Police riders. It was MoT or nobody. I was one of the nobody's back then, being a snake in Orkers. Rode on a couple of the local rides back then, like the Sherrif riding shotgun.

We are fully behind the endurance rides in our village. We met the orgy-niser in rhe OP with a view to understanding the event better, so we can allay any fears in our company re runnin it. Luckily it looks like it might even be better than before, and potentially safer. How can that be bad? Interesting turns being talked about, the orgy guy is a real lateral thinker.

No wish to control anything other than the over reaction one of our managers had last year.

Donuts.

That brings back a memory of riding a local hill road on my XL185s of doom. A MOT bike cop came up next to and yelled at me to F@%k off home on that piece of shit. Looking back and to be fair, it was a piece of shit.

I guess the car number plate and old paper plate for a headlight gave it away.:rolleyes:

Good times.

[Jantar]

Whoops, come in a bit late...serves me right for not paying attention...Guess the "Friday meeting" with the event organiser is over by now......

:laugh: I think I might have an inkling about how you found this thread Paul.

Initially I had hoped that the meeting between the organiser and the Popo would produce a good result, now I believe the result is detrimental to the entire event.

[LBD]

:laugh: I think I might have an inkling about how you found this thread Paul.

Initially I had hoped that the meeting between the organiser and the Popo would produce a good result, now I believe the result is detrimental to the entire event.

Yup you are on to it....Yes it does seem that way...buggar I really enjoyed last year!...Did you see my comment about the lot with the lowest score? You know, -300 for every 100 over....lowest score wins, bit like golf....

[Gremlin]

7) ...I wonder how that sort of "training" affects our ability to stay focused for long hours in the saddle? I cannot comment on the benifit of training rides as it is 4 months at least between rides for me.
...
I fully appreciate the reasons the organisers are seeking to apease the nay sayers...in todays world it seems someone is always to blame....and todays event organisers are wrongly being blamed for the mistakes or in-experience of participants who should be themselves to blame.

re 7) I believe training rides are absolutely valuable. For those considering trying long distance riding, I liken it to a marathon. You build up to it, and have to be fit to do it. Riding is a different fitness, but a fitness nonetheless. When you've done the training, then the event itself is easier. Of course there is also general fitness. I know from my own experience and testing that a lot of prep for one Grand Challenge made it extremely easy (weather is obviously a factor - and a training ride was actually harder). Conversely, a lack of training rides made it harder.


Initially I had hoped that the meeting between the organiser and the Popo would produce a good result, now I believe the result is detrimental to the entire event.
I honestly believe the result is middle of the road. It could easily have been worse or better. The organisers can come under a lot of heat if things go wrong... just look at the multisport or triathlon event a couple of years ago? Organisers charged I think? Even if innocent, the stress is enough to make them go "Fuck it, it ain't worth it".

The event looks to be on and will continue to evolve, like it has every year. Kudos to all organisers of all events to keep on putting them on.

[LBD]

re 7) I believe training rides are absolutely valuable. For those considering trying long distance riding, I liken it to a marathon. You build up to it, and have to be fit to do it. Riding is a different fitness, but a fitness nonetheless. When you've done the training, then the event itself is easier. Of course there is also general fitness. I know from my own experience and testing that a lot of prep for one Grand Challenge made it extremely easy (weather is obviously a factor - and a training ride was actually harder). Conversely, a lack of training rides made it harder.

I am not particularly tough or fit or young and I carry a reasonable girth...But have ridden 3 TTs, 2 GCs and the 10K super tour and all without any training and hopping on the bike after a minimum of 4 months since the last ride, so I tend to think state of mind, and equipment set up, is way more important than training and fitness for endurance rides.

However if you are inexperienced at endurance rides then yes, some long distance practice is in order

[eldog]

re 7) I believe training rides are absolutely valuable. For those considering trying long distance riding, I liken it to a marathon. You build up to it, and have to be fit to do it. Riding is a different fitness, but a fitness nonetheless. When you've done the training, then the event itself is easier. Of course there is also general fitness. I know from my own experience and testing that a lot of prep for one Grand Challenge made it extremely easy (weather is obviously a factor - and a training ride was actually harder). Conversely, a lack of training rides made it harder..

great thread, just wondered about the 'buildup training' I know it will be different for each individual.
Sorting out gear and bike currently, still have got to sort out some items.
Re the riding, Still in the thinking stage.....

any suggestions

[Gremlin]

Re the riding, Still in the thinking stage.....

any suggestions
Put gear on, go ride bike? :scratch:

Around about 1000km to Cape Reinga and back, that's a good 1k to get under your belt. Go round East Cape and back, could be any distance over 1000km, depending on how far south you go before turning around. Coromandel loop is 400km+ from Auckland return. Used to do that at night, leaving Auckland around 10pm - midnight. Capital 1000km Cruise is on later this year, TT2000 next year, and there are a couple of thousand miler events (1600km) each year. However, start by being comfortable with 4-500km days, then builid from there.

Eventually you'll realise our island is a little small tho :mellow:

Oh, and you're going to rack up expenses. Fuel (duh), tyres, servicing, even turn your gear into consumables as stuff wears out faster when you use it more...

[eldog]

Put gear on, go ride bike? :scratch:

Around about 1000km to Cape Reinga and back, that's a good 1k to get under your belt. Go round East Cape and back, could be any distance over 1000km, depending on how far south you go before turning around. Coromandel loop is 400km+ from Auckland return. Used to do that at night, leaving Auckland around 10pm - midnight. Capital 1000km Cruise is on later this year, TT2000 next year, and there are a couple of thousand miler events (1600km) each year. However, start by being comfortable with 4-500km days, then builid from there.

Eventually you'll realise our island is a little small tho :mellow:

Oh, and you're going to rack up expenses. Fuel (duh), tyres, servicing, even turn your gear into consumables as stuff wears out faster when you use it more...

lack of free time is a big problem, even during the week, so I was looking for things to do while I am not on the bike riding.
Put gear on, go ride bike? :scratch:ok captain obvious

Coromandel loop is next, just got to figure out which road to take, weather dependant

figured a lot has to do with how I ride, what I consume, and mostly mental fitness :eek5:

not going fast, want to enjoy the ride. so planning is essential.
Would go with Awa355 Waikato-Welly trip - my sort of trip, but not upto it at present (cant move my forearm at present due to poison in arm)

Picked up a lot of good suggestions here. thanks Gremlin et al.

[Gremlin]

Coromandel loop is next, just got to figure out which road to take, weather dependant
Realistically on long distance rides, especially ones where the route is pre-determined, you remove weather from the equation. If it rains, you get wet. If it's dry, you don't get wet. If it's windy you get blown around. Good gear is absolutely important as it stops you shedding warmth. You can come back from a 200km ride shivering and warm up. Under the same conditions... you won't make 1000km (or less perhaps). You can't get wet near the start and stay wet for hours on end as you'll risk hyperthermia.

Plus, because we live on a small island, the routes are usually in circles (or several circles). One ride, I think I rode through the same front 4 times in different parts of the island...

[FJRider]

Realistically on long distance rides, especially ones where the route is pre-determined, you remove weather from the equation. If it rains, you get wet. If it's dry, you don't get wet. If it's windy you get blown around. Good gear is absolutely important as it stops you shedding warmth. You can come back from a 200km ride shivering and warm up. Under the same conditions... you won't make 1000km (or less perhaps). You can't get wet near the start and stay wet for hours on end as you'll risk hyperthermia.

Plus, because we live on a small island, the routes are usually in circles (or several circles). One ride, I think I rode through the same front 4 times in different parts of the island...

It's not just weather you need to consider ... it's altitude too ... a few south island passes (Arthurs pass at 1 am can get a tad cool) are over 900 metres ... the cold does creep in if you don't allow for it. (Even in summer riding)

[eldog]

Realistically on long distance rides, especially ones where the route is pre-determined, you remove weather from the equation. If it rains, you get wet. If it's dry, you don't get wet. If it's windy you get blown around. Good gear is absolutely important as it stops you shedding warmth. You can come back from a 200km ride shivering and warm up. Under the same conditions... you won't make 1000km (or less perhaps). You can't get wet near the start and stay wet for hours on end as you'll risk hyperthermia.

Plus, because we live on a small island, the routes are usually in circles (or several circles). One ride, I think I rode through the same front 4 times in different parts of the island...

Got reasonably good gear, just a few pieces missing.
getting the bike sorted.
doing this all by myself with Google and KB for help thanks guys and gals.

all the helpful hints are great, sometimes I miss the obvious directly in front of me.

got no worries about circles, and it will be a while before I get back to the Sth island, really liked the west coast the last time I went there, constant rain.:woohoo:

[Racing Dave]

[QUOTE=Gremlin;1130877509] You can't get wet near the start and stay wet for hours on end as you'll risk hyperthermia.QUOTE]

More likely, hypothermia...

[Gremlin]

You can't get wet near the start and stay wet for hours on end as you'll risk hyperthermia.

More likely, hypothermia...
Uh... yes... buggrit :facepalm:

:bleh:

[FJRider]

... More likely, hypothermia...

How many times did you risk it ... to be first home on (any) one of the Chatto Creek 1000 miler's .. ?? :devil2:

[FJRider]

Eventually you'll realise our island is a little small tho :mellow:



NZ is more than ONE island ... as you may recall .... :niceone:

[Gremlin]

NZ is more than ONE island ... as you may recall .... :niceone:
Yes, but a tad expensive when you're out for a little ride... and a bit of a time sink.

[FJRider]

Yes, but a tad expensive when you're out for a little ride... and a bit of a time sink.

I left home once for a "Tank of gas ride" ... 1800 km's later I was home.


I'm still not sure what happened ... but it was a good ride.


"Time sinks" are the true definition of a motorcycle ride ...

[98tls]

I left home once for a "Tank of gas ride" ... 1800 km's later I was home.


I'm still not sure what happened ... but it was a good ride.


"Time sinks" are the true definition of a motorcycle ride ...

There the best,set off for the Winchester rally once but ended up in Karamea.

[FJRider]

There the best,set off for the Winchester rally once but ended up in Karamea.

And ... has "SHE" forgiven you yet ... ??? :whistle:

[Racing Dave]

How many times did you risk it ... to be first home on (any) one of the Chatto Creek 1000 miler's .. ?? :devil2:

I particularly remember one Chatto Creek ride that ended with a run back to the finish over the Lindis Pass, and there'd been a southerly front go through which then cleared, and the snow on the roadside was gleaming in the moonlight. That was a cold one! End of November should be summery, but often isn't.

[FJRider]

I particularly remember one Chatto Creek ride that ended with a run back to the finish over the Lindis Pass, and there'd been a southerly front go through which then cleared, and the snow on the roadside was gleaming in the moonlight. That was a cold one! End of November should be summery, but often isn't.

Translation ... it is risked on occasion ...


But it can be a trap for the unwary .. or the inexperienced ... and you are neither ...


End of November in Otago you CAN get snow ... nothing new there ... but you made it. (not first home though as I recall ... or am I wrong .. ??)

[eldog]

End of November in Otago you CAN get snow ... nothing new there

went to Macraes mine via train Palmerston? went on the guided mine excursion.
the guide explained how deep the snow got over winter.

we just couldnt imagine it living in akl

but the trip was worth it via Taieri train return

black ice is something i have had to deal with.

[Madness]

...deep ...

...black...

Careful, you'll have Trev all hot & flustered with such talk.

[eldog]

Careful, you'll have Trev all hot & flustered with such talk.

jealous are you?

[Racing Dave]

End of November in Otago you CAN get snow ... nothing new there ... but you made it. (not first home though as I recall ... or am I wrong .. ??)

You remember correctly, not that year.

Not that it was a race, but my two (ahem) 'wins' came on an Aprilia Caponord and a Honda Varadero. Both supremely comfortable, with great fuel range (the Honda was the injected model and could be eked out to 400km on a tank), and above average lights.

Adventure (styled) bikes suit me the best for long distance rides.

[jonnyk5614]

Used to do endurance classic car events in the UK... On navigation rallies, they would have a stop where you checked in then weren't given your next clues for another 30mins. Worked perfectly.