LOL @ smoke tax increase!

[Nzpure]

I wonder if the government has made plans on what to do once none of us can afford to smoke or worse they make it illegal in NZ?
I mean 10% increase per year over 4 years is going to raise something like 1.4billion dollars......How much a year do they make from smoke tax already.
Just a thought.

[mashman]

We'll start growing our own, or at least star chipping in with mates who have the space to grow it for us, then we'll give it away to other friends etc... they'll lose the revenue and then they'll have to ban smoking... at which point I'll larf and larf and smoke where no one can see me.

[Gremlin]

Remember that smoking does cost the country in health related illnesses. However, that's going to be a long term cost saving.

It does also show, if the government deems something to be bad for you, they will try to price it out of your reach.

[Nzpure]

Remember that smoking does cost the country in health related illnesses. However, that's going to be a long term cost saving.

It does also show, if the government deems something to be bad for you, they will try to price it out of your reach.

Yes, However the cost of smoking related illness in NZ is around $250 million. The revenue gained from ciggarette taxation per year prior to the tax increases recently and future increases was $1.6 billion. Doubt my figures google it. So the net profit from ciggarette taxation is around $1.3 billion. Even if the government is saving 250 mil from banning smoking its still going to be 1.3bil in the hole.

[blackdog]

We'll start growing our own, or at least star chipping in with mates who have the space to grow it for us, then we'll give it away to other friends etc... they'll lose the revenue and then they'll have to ban smoking... at which point I'll larf and larf and smoke where no one can see me.

Yup, seeds have been ordered. I will borrow a rotary hoe next weekend for a plot out the back.

[FJRider]

I wonder if the government has made plans on what to do once none of us can afford to smoke or worse they make it illegal in NZ?
I mean 10% increase per year over 4 years is going to raise something like 1.4billion dollars......How much a year do they make from smoke tax already.
Just a thought.

If it's any easier ... just think of the extra cost as an ACC levy on smokes ... it will seem fairer then ...

[mashman]

Yup, seeds have been ordered. I will borrow a rotary hoe next weekend for a plot out the back.

Iffen ya wanna go halfsies :)

[Nzpure]

If it's any easier ... just think of the extra cost as an ACC levy on smokes ... it will seem fairer then ...

You know, It really has made me feel better. lol

[Madness]

Yup, seeds have been ordered. I will borrow a rotary hoe next weekend for a plot out the back.

Grow a couple of Burleys to add to the blend for that deep, satisfying flavour :msn-wink:

[Hitcher]

How much a year do they make from smoke tax already.
Just a thought.

This hoary old fallacious argument assumes that there is no cost associated with tobacco, other than what smokers spend on their habits with the proceeds of those being shared by retailers, tobacco companies and the Government.

One in five smokers will die from smoking-related causes. That would be just fine if those were clean and tidy deaths at no cost to the taxpayers who fund the medical expenses associated with what are often long and costly illnesses. Then there are the people who aren't smokers but whose health is munted by passive smoking.

Without any of these consequences, then tobacco products probably would most certainly be a cash cow for graspingly desperate politicians.

[FJRider]

Yes, However the cost of smoking related illness in NZ is around $250 million. The revenue gained from ciggarette taxation per year prior to the tax increases recently and future increases was $1.6 billion. Doubt my figures google it. So the net profit from ciggarette taxation is around $1.3 billion. Even if the government is saving 250 mil from banning smoking its still going to be 1.3bil in the hole.

With the price increase and the numbers quitting ... $1.6 billion will still be taken in tax.

The number people getting illness's due to cigarette's ... wont stop anytime soon. And I cant see the death rate slowing either.

And more kids will go to school hungry, because mum and(or) dad still want to have their ciggies ...

[FJRider]

This hoary old fallacious argument assumes that there is no cost associated with tobacco, other than what smokers spend on their habits with the proceeds of those being shared by retailers, tobacco companies and the Government.

One in five smokers will die from smoking-related causes. That would be just fine if those were clean and tidy deaths at no cost to the taxpayers who fund the medical expenses associated with what are often long and costly illnesses. Then there are the people who aren't smokers but whose health is munted by passive smoking.

Without any of these consequences, then tobacco products probably would most certainly be a cash cow for graspingly desperate politicians.

I wonder how long before Life/Health insurance premiums will be increased ... or refused cover entirely for smokers ...

When the "I didn't know it was dangerous generation" dies out ... the changes may be radical.

[Berries]

I stopped ten days ago. Second longest break since I started nearly thirty years ago.

AND I AM GOING TO FUCKING KILL SOMEONE SOON.

Talk about being shitty.

[Boob Johnson]

I stopped ten days ago. Second longest break since I started nearly thirty years ago.

AND I AM GOING TO FUCKING KILL SOMEONE SOON.

Talk about being shitty.
lol hang in there tiger!

[Maha]

Two and a half years without a smoke and around $10,000 of my money that went else where...good to be able to change bikes every 2-3 years.

[Laava]

, if the government deems something to be bad for you, they will try to price it out of your reach.

Yeah like motorbikes? And 4x4 utes and diesel to put in it.
Do I have to pay the govt every time I have a root as well?
Hope they take coins!

[Laava]

Two and a half years without a smoke and around $10,000 of my money that went else where...good to be able to change bikes every 2-3 years.

Snap! That what I did!

[Maha]

Snap! That what I did!

I was light smoker but it still cost me around $4K per year..rediculous shit really.

[FJRider]

I was light smoker but it still cost me around $4K per year..rediculous shit really.

I have never smoked .... and all (most of) the money I would have spent on them ... was put back into circulation ...

[Edbear]

I wonder how long before Life/Health insurance premiums will be increased ... or refused cover entirely for smokers ...

When the "I didn't know it was dangerous generation" dies out ... the changes may be radical.

Try to get life and health insurance as a smoker and you will see a lot of exclusions on your Policy Plus higher premiums.

If I had been a smoker I would not have been able to have my spinal operation and would be a paraplegic by now.

[mashman]

If I had been a smoker I would not have been able to have my spinal operation and would be a paraplegic by now.

that's because the world is effin stupid... you smoke so you shouldn't be allowed X treatment... damn I :rofl: at that type of dodge of responsibility.

[Edbear]

that's because the world is effin stupid... you smoke so you shouldn't be allowed X treatment... damn I :rofl: at that type of dodge of responsibility.

Not political or discriminatory, purely health related. Smoking destroys not just what is commonly understood, but your general health. Your lungs and heart are greatly affected and long periods under general anaesthetic are far more dangerous for smokers. It wrecks all major organs and even your eyes. Anyone who thinks smoking, ( anything), is not that harmful is kidding themselves.

[mashman]

Not political or discriminatory, purely health related. Smoking destroys not just what is commonly understood, but your general health. Your lungs and heart are greatly affected and long periods under general anaesthetic are far more dangerous for smokers. It wrecks all major organs and even your eyes. Anyone who thinks smoking, ( anything), is not that harmful is kidding themselves.

So it's alright to allow the person to become a paraplegic and drain the health service even further because they're a smoker... in the words of John Mcenroe, you cannot be serious?

[Edbear]

So it's alright to allow the person to become a paraplegic and drain the health service even further because they're a smoker... in the words of John Mcenroe, you cannot be serious?

Sorry I can only go by what the Doc's and surgeon say. I would think they know a thing or two about it...

[Winston001]

Try to get life and health insurance as a smoker and you will see a lot of exclusions on your Policy Plus higher premiums.



+1. Exactly. Medical insurance and life insurance premiums have been loaded against smokers for decades now. Nothing new.

[mashman]

Sorry I can only go by what the Doc's and surgeon say. I would think they know a thing or two about it...

I'm not saying they don't, but it's madness to leave someone in a chair just because they smoke... especially when they've paid more towards the health service than most, even if the others have their shitty diets and poor lifestyle choices.

[Edbear]

+1. Exactly. Medical insurance and life insurance premiums have been loaded against smokers for decades now. Nothing new.

Yup. I was in the insurance industry specialising in life and health insurance. Most smokers were dismayed by what they couldn't have and how much more it cost them to get less. Many said they were going to quit on that basis alone.

[Edbear]

I'm not saying they don't, but it's madness to leave someone in a chair just because they smoke... especially when they've paid more towards the health service than most, even if the others have their shitty diets and poor lifestyle choices.

Just goes to show how seriously bad smoking is...

[Andy67]

This hoary old fallacious argument assumes that there is no cost associated with tobacco, other than what smokers spend on their habits with the proceeds of those being shared by retailers, tobacco companies and the Government.

One in five smokers will die from smoking-related causes. That would be just fine if those were clean and tidy deaths at no cost to the taxpayers who fund the medical expenses associated with what are often long and costly illnesses. Then there are the people who aren't smokers but whose health is munted by passive smoking.

Without any of these consequences, then tobacco products probably would most certainly be a cash cow for graspingly desperate politicians.

We all die mate. Some more gracefully than others. Heart disease and lung cancer can kill at very small cost to the taxpayer.know it all prick.

[mashman]

Just goes to show how seriously bad smoking is...

:rofl: troll.

[Winston001]

We all die mate. Some more gracefully than others. Heart disease and lung cancer can kill at very small cost to the taxpayer.know it all prick.

Ahh...cheerfully said by the under-50s, indeed used to blithely say that m'self.

Having now been dragged back to earth by seeing people die - distressingly slowly - I'm not so sanguine. Becoming ill, being treated, then becoming much sicker, this takes years because we are so clever with modern medicine. Still there is a lot of pain, loss of dignity, powerlessness for family...dying is not pretty or easy.

[Andy67]

Ahh...cheerfully said by the under-50s, indeed used to blithely say that m'self.

Having now been dragged back to earth by seeing people die - distressingly slowly - I'm not so sanguine. Becoming ill, being treated, then becoming much sicker, this takes years because we are so clever with modern medicine. Still there is a lot of pain, loss of dignity, powerlessness for family...dying is not pretty or easy.

Never said it was Winston and trust me I mix with all ages. Timely glib post given my brothers best mate died yesterday aged 44 of pancreatic cancer. Lucky it killed as profiled and didn't cost the tax payer fuck all.

[Akzle]

i haven't read through it all, but i will oneday.

fuck the govt. how about EVERYONE stop buying baccy. write nice sorry letters to the imperial tobacco co, explaining that the NZ govt are shit heads, and see if they wont bring more pressure to bear.

you can buy smokes in vending machines in japan for fucken 2$ pack....

i will give away tobacco seeds for free to anyone who wants em, (PM or txt) i will also be chucking handfuls of them out along roadsides and council parks as i travel.

these seeds are acclimatised to northland/auckland, but it grows like a weed anywhere. if you can keep a plant alive to seeding then you'll have em acclimatised to your district.

going to crop the fuck out of this country.

[Woodman]

Wonder how much it costs the gummint to buy ciggies for beneficiaries??

[willytheekid]

I can't wait to see you hypocrite's crying and moaning when they move from smokers, to fat people & sugar products etc...then your precious alcohol!...and then....
And if you don't think its gonna happen :laugh:

Nanny says don't do that!...we know best!....heres the figures....they don't lie!....and neither do we!.....you poor poor blind fools

Its about money and control...not health!...otherwise they would do something about about our shit healthcare system and rampant alcohol abuse in NZ :weird:


"Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one act that could most easily defeat us.”
-William Orville Douglas

...I think I want a smoke...and Im not affraid to say so! :bleh:

http://lolpics.se/pics/1266.jpg

ps...I do agree smoking is bad for you(hence Im a light smoker!)....but then, so are motorbikes!...well...according to ACC facts n figures :msn-wink:

[SMOKEU]

i will give away tobacco seeds for free to anyone who wants em, (PM or txt) i will also be chucking handfuls of them out along roadsides and council parks as i travel.

these seeds are acclimatised to northland/auckland, but it grows like a weed anywhere. if you can keep a plant alive to seeding then you'll have em acclimatised to your district.



Do the same for weed and poppy seeds, too.

[Clockwork]

This hoary old fallacious argument assumes that there is no cost associated with tobacco, other than what smokers spend on their habits with the proceeds of those being shared by retailers, tobacco companies and the Government.

One in five smokers will die from smoking-related causes. That would be just fine if those were clean and tidy deaths at no cost to the taxpayers who fund the medical expenses associated with what are often long and costly illnesses. Then there are the people who aren't smokers but whose health is munted by passive smoking.

Without any of these consequences, then tobacco products probably would most certainly be a cash cow for graspingly desperate politicians.


Passive smoking is nothing more than a statistical concept, a piece of PR bull invented to give non-smokers a moral platform from which to preach to smokers. (sheesh, how many millions "mainline" 20 or more smokes a day around the world without suffering the nonsense symptoms claimed by "passive smokers")

Anyhow, while those reformed smokers are living longer and paying less taxes, they will instead get other long term ailments associated with geriatric care, oh and they will need to collect super' for longer too.

[Murray]

Someone told me once 100% of people die - I thought it was just the smokers???

[oneofsix]

Someone told me once 100% of people die - I thought it was just the smokers???

Nah smoking only kills 50% of its victims. :pinch:

[bluninja]

SNIP...Do I have to pay the govt every time I have a root as well?
Hope they take coins!

You already do if you buy condoms :woohoo:

[Fast Eddie]

We'll start growing our own pot, or at least star chipping in with mates who have the space to grow pot for us, then we'll give it away to other friends etc... they'll be retarded as usual and fail to see the revenue they could have had if they just left things alone and then they'll have to ban smoking... at which point they will spend millions on anti tobacco police force, regulations and more prison space for the crims

hmm sounds familiar lol

[mashman]

I can't wait to see you hypocrite's crying and moaning when they move from smokers, to fat people & sugar products etc...then your precious alcohol!...and then....
And if you don't think its gonna happen :laugh:

Nanny says don't do that!...we know best!....heres the figures....they don't lie!....and neither do we!.....you poor poor blind fools

Its about money and control...not health!...otherwise they would do something about about our shit healthcare system and rampant alcohol abuse in NZ :weird:


"Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one act that could most easily defeat us.”
-William Orville Douglas

...I think I want a smoke...and Im not affraid to say so! :bleh:

ps...I do agree smoking is bad for you(hence Im a light smoker!)....but then, so are motorbikes!...well...according to ACC facts n figures :msn-wink:

I do a great line in buckets of sand... damn, nope that's not gonna help ya.
I do a great line in tinfoil hats... shit, that's won't help either.

Turns out that that was a great post... who woulda thunk it :niceone:

[mashman]

hmm sounds familiar lol

fuckin mindreaders spoil everything

[bluninja]

fuckin mindreaders spoil everything
I just knew you were going to post that :innocent:

[Asher]

Its about money and control...not health!...otherwise they would do something about about our shit healthcare system and rampant alcohol abuse in NZ :weird:
I totally agree with you. The gluberment is going to get our money one way or an other, just they would rather do it without there being associated costs to the health care system, thus they discourage smoking.
Increasing the smoking tax does not make the gluberment more money, it just means you have less money to spend on other thing (which are also taxed).

[Maha]

I totally agree with you. The gluberment is going to get our money one way or an other, just they would rather do it without there being associated costs to the health care system, thus they discourage smoking.
Increasing the smoking tax does not make the gluberment more money, it just means you have less money to spend on other thing (which are also taxed).

...or, stop smoking and have a shit load more money to spend on other things....choice is a wonderful, (but sometimes misused) thing.

[ducatilover]

Two and a half years without a smoke and around $10,000 of my money that went else where...good to be able to change bikes every 2-3 years.

Jeez mate! I'll only save $780 a year if I stop now

[FJRider]

I'm not saying they don't, but it's madness to leave someone in a chair just because they smoke... especially when they've paid more towards the health service than most, even if the others have their shitty diets and poor lifestyle choices.

In the pursuit of their habit ... they pay (paid) a tax that was (is) collected by the goverment. Private health insurance companies do not like their clients dying on the operating table ... it kind of looks bad for them. Plus the life insurance payout they then need to pay out on doesn't go well with their budgets ....

Urgent and life threatning (not necessarily the essential treatment to maintain normal life) medical care is paid for (By ACC actually) ... on the waiting list system, in the order of priority.

Those that smoke, and expect all their smoking related illnesses to be fully funded and treated with total urgency, as and when the problems occur .... may be subject to disappointment. And discomfort ... during the wait for treatment.

[bluninja]

Those that smoke, and expect all their smoking related illnesses to be fully funded and treated with total urgency, as and when the problems occur .... may be subject to disappointment. And discomfort ... during the wait for treatment.

doctors tend to treat people based on whether the treatment will work or not. If they have limits on their time and funding then they will prioritise those that medically have the best outcome from the treatment. Being overweight, drinking, smoking, and pre existing medical conditions factor into the medical process. My aunt smoked, drank, and was overweight and needed a quadruple heart bypass. The doctor said she was not a good candidate for the procedure. She went away stopped drinking and smoking and lost about 25 kgs...she went back and had the operation successfully. It's all about choices.

[FJRider]

It's all about choices.

Yep ... I have heard many smokers laugh and say (as they light up) "you have to die of something" ...

What they fail to realise is ... that death can usually be expected to be a slow ... and uncomfortable one.

Is it a laughing matter ... ???

But you are right ... IT IS THEIR CHOICE ...

[Usarka]

I stopped ten days ago. Second longest break since I started nearly thirty years ago.

AND I AM GOING TO FUCKING KILL SOMEONE SOON.


Why wait???

[Maha]

Jeez mate! I'll only save $780 a year if I stop now

Tea bags or Leaves?....:shifty:

[Zedder]

Yep ... I have heard many smokers laugh and say (as they light up) "you have to die of something" ...

What they fail to realise is ... that death can usually be expected to be a slow ... and uncomfortable one.

Is it a laughing matter ... ???

But you are right ... IT IS THEIR CHOICE ...

Yes, it is very much their choice.

However, what if there were no cigarettes anymore? What do you think people would spend their money on once they had stopped smoking?

[Edbear]

:rofl: troll.

Who me...?


In the pursuit of their habit ... they pay (paid) a tax that was (is) collected by the goverment. Private health insurance companies do not like their clients dying on the operating table ... it kind of looks bad for them. Plus the life insurance payout they then need to pay out on doesn't go well with their budgets ....

Urgent and life threatning (not necessarily the essential treatment to maintain normal life) medical care is paid for (By ACC actually) ... on the waiting list system, in the order of priority.

Those that smoke, and expect all their smoking related illnesses to be fully funded and treated with total urgency, as and when the problems occur .... may be subject to disappointment. And discomfort ... during the wait for treatment.

Insurance companies are all about risk and they ate there to make money. They will back healthy people to the limit but won't risk any motte than they have to on unhealthy people or those at greater risk of costing them money. If you want to argue the risk factor of smoking just ask the insurance companies. Nothing to do with the Govt. as the Govt. takes advice from industry specific people and companies that actually know their stuff. All arguments for smoking are made by those who smoke and don't want to quit.

I tend to agree with the personal responsibility motion, if you are going to deliberately flout the law or engage in activity that is clearly contrary to medical advice, you should accept that in the event you suffer for your actions you forsake your claim on the Govt. to bail you out.

[Mad-V2]

In New Zealand I was paying $2808 NZD a year on smoking (Port Royal 50g a week, now $54 each)
By moving to Australia I'm only paying around $1890 NZD for the exact same product.
To me, that means the govt is making roughly $918 profit per smoker a year.
I'd say the Australian health care system would be similar to ours if not better, and they'd tax smokers to "cover the cost of care" also.
Free country - Yea Right :facepalm:

[caspernz]

Nothing wrong with discouraging smoking. The health benefits are obvious enough, all numbers and costs aside.

Cancer cures smoking.

The cigarette smokes, you're just the sucker.

Simple way of thinking, suits me.

[FJRider]

In New Zealand I was paying $2808 NZD a year on smoking (Port Royal 50g a week, now $54 each)
By moving to Australia I'm only paying around $1890 NZD for the exact same product.
To me, that means the govt is making roughly $918 profit per smoker a year.
I'd say the Australian health care system would be similar to ours if not better, and they'd tax smokers to "cover the cost of care" also.
Free country - Yea Right :facepalm:

Your belief that ALL the money you pay for tobacco ... goes directly to the goverment .... is almost funny. But they are not the only people making money out of it.

The $918 "profit" you mention is just the difference in counter price ... try researching the tax take on Aussie smokes ...

And if you believe the tax wont go up over there too ... you are too trusting ... some may say deluded.

[Mad-V2]

Your belief that ALL the money you pay for tobacco ... goes directly to the goverment .... is almost funny. But they are not the only people making money out of it.

The $918 "profit" you mention is just the difference in counter price ... try researching the tax take on Aussie smokes ...

And if you believe the tax wont go up over there too ... you are too trusting ... some may say deluded.


I never said the govt gets every cent, and I do believe tax will go up here. It goes without saying
The tobacco company would only get about $11 of the sale on one 50g as seen on this site (http://www.tobacco.net.au/search.php?mode=search&page=1) where you can buy pretty much direct from the factory. And I'd say that price would include all costs to manufacture the product.
I already did the research and found New Zealand charge an extra $7 NZD than Australia on 50 grams of Port Royal.
Thats a large increase if you work it annually, and times it by the amount of smokers in N.Z
I also doubt the retailers are getting much of the $44 remaining.
Another more simple example is when I go through duty free at the airport
I can get 5, 50 grams of park drive for around $130 NZD, but from a normal shop it would cost me $265!
Either way it's a fuckin joke.

[Oakie]

Yes, However the cost of smoking related illness in NZ is around $250 million. The revenue gained from ciggarette taxation per year prior to the tax increases recently and future increases was $1.6 billion. Doubt my figures google it. So the net profit from ciggarette taxation is around $1.3 billion. Even if the government is saving 250 mil from banning smoking its still going to be 1.3bil in the hole.

2 to 2.5 BILLION actually. Well that was the figure quoted on an articlwe about it tonight.

[Edbear]

2 to 2.5 BILLION actually. Well that was the figure quoted on an articlwe about it tonight.

I watched and heard that too. I have issues with arguments that don't reference such as statistics. It's not hard to verify the figures you post.

[Road kill]

I often wonder what the powers that be would say if they banned smoking all togeather and people just continued to die from things that were ment to only be about smoking.
Little things like the chemical pollution we all ride through an breath every day of our lives.
It's like the level of cancer today is very much a modern issue,but smoking sure as hell isn't.
I wouldn't be supprised if I died from cancer caused by some form of pollution,,,I mean my cat did an he never smoked a day in his life but he ate heaps of processed cat food.

Then there's this little issue of not raising the tax on alcohol,,,I'd sure like to see drunks taxed right off the fucking planet,,,but I guess they look after their own huh.

[mashman]

Who me...?

Yes, you! don't act all innocent with me ya old bugga.



I tend to agree with the personal responsibility motion, if you are going to deliberately flout the law or engage in activity that is clearly contrary to medical advice, you should accept that in the event you suffer for your actions you forsake your claim on the Govt. to bail you out.

Give me my money back then.

[Akzle]

Nothing wrong with discouraging smoking. The health benefits are obvious enough, all numbers and costs aside.

Cancer cures smoking.

The cigarette smokes, you're just the sucker.

Simple way of thinking, suits me.

piss off and die.

whoever thinks they have any right to dictate how anyone else should live...
well. it is my dictate that they should move to another planet. and i got guns, too, to enforce my dictate. =)

i discourage people thinking their opinion matters, i discourage people making BS claims, i discourage people having faith in the government. discourage smoking? who the f*ck are you?

my standing challenge (as a smoker) is to run up and down maungakiekie in auckland, until someone gives up. it's been a few years since i've done it, but, you game?

smoking causes health problems my A55. the fucking pollution from every dick's V8, SUV or POS car in towns causes health fucken problems. the consumeristic life you lead causes planetary problems, so don't fucken whine at me about burning a bit of leaf.

and to whoever said about dope and poppy seeds -- dope will cost ya, and i dont have stock of the right poppies, got some californian ones which apparently tickle, but they've ne'er done much for me...(i'm in the market for dem poppies tho....)

[scumdog]

[COLOR="#139922"]

smoking causes health problems my A55.

Now THERE'S an interesting fact!:blink:

[Edbear]

Yes, you! don't act all innocent with me ya old bugga.


Give me my money back then.

Awwww... I'm the epitome of sweet innocence... :innocent:

I do agree of course that if the Govt. receives taxes from cigarette sales it should be spent on education and initiatives to reduce or eliminate smoking and that those who choose to smoke and agree not to claim on the public health purse for treatment be excused from paying that share. Far too difficult to legislate for of course and imagine the lawsuits and arguments about the exact cause of the illness as those involved try to argue for or against as to the direct cause of the illness.

However in the end, the medical evidence is comPletey overwhelming that cigarette smoking causes multiple health risks and specifically causes multiple diseases. The producers and sellers of tobacco know this and therefore by definition are murderers and perpetrators of grievous bodily harm in order to make money. What other endeavour would come under the same definition?

Not alcohol as used in moderation, unlike smoking, it does not cause death and grievous illness.

Tobacco is harmful to health in any amount and is out on it's own. If you obey the usage directions it is the only product that used according to its purpose it will kill and maim the user whereas other products are not designed and produced to kill the user.

[FJRider]

... Either way it's a fuckin joke.

Only smokers ... and families with a smoker (in financial control) are not laughing ...

The rest of the country (on both sides of the ditch) are pissing themselves laughing.

[Indiana_Jones]

I have no issue with people smoking, as long as the tax on the fags covers the health issues related.

As for people saying non-smokers don't care etc, I guess it's no different from all the cage drivers when it came to our ACC hikes....

-Indy

[Mad-V2]

Only smokers ... and families with a smoker (in financial control) are not laughing ...

The rest of the country (on both sides of the ditch) are pissing themselves laughing.

And you would be right there, very insightful
But letting people get addicted to a drug by allowing it on the shelves in the first place, and then taking them for all they're worth by putting the price up for no real reason is not exactly funny either. That makes the government no better than your average meth dealer.

[mashman]

Awwww... I'm the epitome of sweet innocence... :innocent:

I do agree of course that if the Govt. receives taxes from cigarette sales it should be spent on education and initiatives to reduce or eliminate smoking and that those who choose to smoke and agree not to claim on the public health purse for treatment be excused from paying that share. Far too difficult to legislate for of course and imagine the lawsuits and arguments about the exact cause of the illness as those involved try to argue for or against as to the direct cause of the illness.


Agreed. They can blame anything they like, but there are too many other causes that aren't considered... purposefully is another discussion entirely and one that usually involves people trying to sell tinfoil hats. But how does the 90 year old that has smoked for her entire life not ended up dying of cancer? Luck?



However in the end, the medical evidence is comPletey overwhelming that cigarette smoking causes multiple health risks and specifically causes multiple diseases. The producers and sellers of tobacco know this and therefore by definition are murderers and perpetrators of grievous bodily harm in order to make money. What other endeavour would come under the same definition?

Not alcohol as used in moderation, unlike smoking, it does not cause death and grievous illness.


So what? Isn't it my choice? Just like it was when Banksy's son drank too much and killed himself. I accept the risks and yes, I would dearly love to see no one smoking, but I won't remove their choice to do it just because it may save them... because it may not, whether you like it or not.

[Woodman]

And you would be right there, very insightful
But letting people get addicted to a drug by allowing it on the shelves in the first place, and then taking them for all they're worth by putting the price up for no real reason is not exactly funny either. That makes the government no better than your average meth dealer.


How is that the governments fault? Um personal responsibility, where did that go?

[mashman]

How is that the governments fault? Um personal responsibility, where did that go?

The government took it away with everything else that they decided to, erm, take away...

[Akzle]

However in the end, the medical evidence is comPletey overwhelming that cigarette smoking causes multiple health risks and specifically causes multiple diseases. The producers and sellers of tobacco know this and therefore by definition are murderers and perpetrators of grievous bodily harm in order to make money. What other endeavour would come under the same definition?

Not alcohol as used in moderation, unlike smoking, it does not cause death and grievous illness.

Tobacco is harmful to health in any amount and is out on it's own. If you obey the usage directions it is the only product that used according to its purpose it will kill and maim the user whereas other products are not designed and produced to kill the user.
Awwww... you're the epitome of sweet self delusion.

tobacco has been used by mankind (the darker folk that were around before you white fullas showed up and whopped em all -- oh, and bought booze)
as said by mashy, i've had smokers in the family live long productive lives (80s+), smoking since 15... where's your medical evidence for that.. i guess it was all that moderated booze that kept them going huh?

alcohol is a neurotoxin. you are 100% misguided/uninformed/uneducated if you believe there is a "safe" or "moderated" amount of alcohol that is not doing your body harm.
tobacco, as a plant product, has exactly fuckall things-bad-for-you in it. your body absorbs the compounds, rather than trying to process and excrete them.

the damage caused by alcohol and it's abuse in this country is not less than ten-fold that of ciggies.

i can smoke a pack of ciggies and drive upright... a pack of beer. no.
up it buddy. up yours it.

[Mad-V2]

How is that the governments fault? Um personal responsibility, where did that go?

Thats not the point, They allowed it on the shelves even though they knew it could kill people.
Imagine if smoking was banned 100 years ago, how many smokers would there be today?

As has been said, we should be able to make our own choices without being punished for it.
The health care system pays for alot of ailments, like obesity for instance. We don't raise tax on fat people's food to help them get to a healthier weight
Why single people out for making choices others disagre with? isn't that discrimination?

[FJRider]

... But how does the 90 year old that has smoked for her entire life not ended up dying of cancer? Luck?




Death due to Cancer ... Cancer due to smoking ...

If your belief that all smoking related illnesses lead to death from cancer ... you are wrong. Only the lucky ones get that. Most of those that die ... die slowly of respiratory problems ... they just slowly lose the ability to breathe ....

The lucky one's dont.


Are you feeling lucky ... ???

[carbonhed]

tobacco, as a plant product, has exactly fuckall things-bad-for-you in it. your body absorbs the compounds, rather than trying to process and excrete them.




Nicotine is a kick ass insecticide that's been banned because it's really fucking toxic to mammals... I presume that includes you you pin headed dumb arse motherfucker.

[mashman]

Death due to Cancer ... Cancer due to smoking ...

If your belief that all smoking related illnesses lead to death from cancer ... you are wrong. Only the lucky ones get that. Most of those that die ... die slowly of respiratory problems ... they just slowly lose the ability to breathe ....

The lucky one's dont.


Are you feeling lucky ... ???

My great gran was the 90 year old and my grandad was the guy who suffered on til 80 with breathing problems... he also had really bad wind and had given up smoking 40years prior to his death, the last 10 with breathing difficulties.

I'll take my chances (if I'm allowed to) as I've known, and know, people who have never smoked and die/suffer from cancer.

[madbikeboy]

This hoary old fallacious argument assumes that there is no cost associated with tobacco, other than what smokers spend on their habits with the proceeds of those being shared by retailers, tobacco companies and the Government.

One in five smokers will die from smoking-related causes. That would be just fine if those were clean and tidy deaths at no cost to the taxpayers who fund the medical expenses associated with what are often long and costly illnesses. Then there are the people who aren't smokers but whose health is munted by passive smoking.

Without any of these consequences, then tobacco products probably would most certainly be a cash cow for graspingly desperate politicians.

Is it politically incorrect to send my ex a large carton of ciggies?

Seriously, what he said, plus - I wonder if you took the real social and economic costs of smoking, and drinking (policing, road deaths, health issues, violence); what would that number actually look like. I'm the last person to advocate governmental control, but I also think that balanced against the freedom to be as much of an asshole as you'd like (for example, laws like riding with helmets actually make sense no matter how much the old timers bleat about it) - adding duty to something like smoking makes logical sense. I just wish they'd add a rap music duty so you didn't run the risk of accidentally tuning in when station surfing...

[madbikeboy]

[COLOR="#139922"]

tobacco has been used by mankind (the darker folk that were around before you white fullas showed up and whopped em all -- oh, and bought booze)


The white fulla also bought proper English, social welfare, law and order, and Toffee Pops. Mind you, the green fullas (Irish) bought us good comedy. The Yellow fulla was nice enough to help us with awesome litre motorcycles and Yoshimura go faster bits. The delightfully milk chocolate coloured fulla at the takeaways cooked me dinner tonight, I guess butter chicken counts as non-brown food. The people who ride magic carpets bought us camel racing, and the hot white fullessa's with too tight pants bought us camel toe.

Point is, last time I checked, cancer (the sort that seems to be scientifically linked to smoking) doesn't give a rat's ass what colour your skin is, or where your parents and grandparents called home.

[scumdog]

Awwww... you're the epitome of sweet self delusion.

tobacco, as a plant product, has exactly fuckall things-bad-for-you in it. your body absorbs the compounds, rather than trying to process and excrete them.

Wow, on that sound scientific basis I might just sell my bike and take up smoking, it's bound to be better for me.:rolleyes:

[Berries]

smoking causes health problems my A55. the fucking pollution from every dick's V8, SUV or POS car in towns causes health fucken problems. the consumeristic life you lead causes planetary problems, so don't fucken whine at me about burning a bit of leaf.
If you don't think smoking causes some kind of health problems then either a) you have not been smoking for long or b) you are smoking like a little girl.

[scumdog]

If you don't think smoking causes some kind of health problems then either a) you have not been smoking for long or b) you are smoking like a little girl.

Or c), trolling. (again)

[Road kill]

Awwww... you're the epitome of sweet self delusion.

tobacco has been used by mankind (the darker folk that were around before you white fullas showed up and whopped em all -- oh, and bought booze)
as said by mashy, i've had smokers in the family live long productive lives (80s+), smoking since 15... where's your medical evidence for that.. i guess it was all that moderated booze that kept them going huh?

alcohol is a neurotoxin. you are 100% misguided/uninformed/uneducated if you believe there is a "safe" or "moderated" amount of alcohol that is not doing your body harm.
tobacco, as a plant product, has exactly fuckall things-bad-for-you in it. your body absorbs the compounds, rather than trying to process and excrete them.

the damage caused by alcohol and it's abuse in this country is not less than ten-fold that of ciggies.

i can smoke a pack of ciggies and drive upright... a pack of beer. no.
up it buddy. up yours it.


Chur bro,,,you make me look well educated an real smart,,,like ya' nkow:killingme
thanks

[mashman]

Chur bro,,,you make me look well educated an real smart,,,like ya' nkow:killingme
thanks

So you reckon inhaling exhaust fumes over a lifetime causes no ill effect? Why did they remove lead from petrol?

[Edbear]

So you reckon inhaling exhaust fumes over a lifetime causes no ill effect? Why did they remove lead from petrol?

My point wasn't that there aren't harmful substances everywhere, but the difference is specifically,(and some just can't seem to understand this,) that cigarettes are made to kill and maim the customer by manufacturers that know this and rely on suckers willing to suffer and die so they can make money.

What sane person would sacrifice their own health to support those who come under the legal definition of murderer.

Other harmful substances like exhaust fumes, we try to avoid. Other substances, at least for sensible people, we try to minimise the harm. Yet with smoking, it is plain that the minds of some are completely skewed.

[scumdog]

Other harmful substances like exhaust fumes, we try to avoid. Other substances, at least for sensible people, we try to minimise the harm. Yet with smoking, it is plain that the minds of some are completely skewed.

True, exhaust fumes etc we try to avoid/make safer whatever.

with tobacco smoking it: "Lemme see, it sounds OK to suck as big an amount of this carcinogen as I can into my lungs and do it as many times as I can afford to despite me knowing there is not a single valid positive reason to do so"

"And the reason I started is (a) 'cos I could - or (b) 'cos when I was young and silly EVERYBODY else was and I thought I'd be cool if I smoked."
Or something like that.

And it's not JUST smoking tobacco that is 'Not Good' (tm) - smokeless chewing tobacco carries the same health 'warning' on its packaging.

Each to their own -just don't try and tell me smoking is worse than XXX(name your product). It's not about that.

[Usarka]

Each to their own -just don't try and tell me smoking is worse than XXX(name your product). It's not about that.

What about donuts?

[mashman]

My point wasn't that there aren't harmful substances everywhere, but the difference is specifically,(and some just can't seem to understand this,) that cigarettes are made to kill and maim the customer by manufacturers that know this and rely on suckers willing to suffer and die so they can make money.

What sane person would sacrifice their own health to support those who come under the legal definition of murderer.

Other harmful substances like exhaust fumes, we try to avoid. Other substances, at least for sensible people, we try to minimise the harm. Yet with smoking, it is plain that the minds of some are completely skewed.

I wasn't talking to you :shifty:... and some people don't seem to understand that that risk has been taken into account when they get their fix. Too busy preaching about how bad it is and missing the point entirely.

Me... although sane is possibly bit of a push.

If you go on to the street in any town or city you will be inhaling exhaust fumes. At least it's easy for people to avoid cigarette smoke... those who choose to that is.

[scumdog]

What about donuts?

Yes please.

Are they hard to light???:confused:

[mashman]

Yes please.

Are they hard to light???:confused:

You're issued with torches aren't you?

[Edbear]

Would someone care to list the benefits of smoking? And before you say,"it calms my nerves," it in fact causes the nervousness you claim it calms. So as with other drugs you suffer withdrawal symptoms.

[mashman]

Would someone care to list the benefits of smoking? And before you say,"it calms my nerves," it in fact causes the nervousness you claim it calms. So as with other drugs you suffer withdrawal symptoms.

It annoys people who don't grasp the concept that man is free to do what he wants. It benefits me no end :yes:

[scumdog]

If you go on to the street in any town or city you will be inhaling exhaust fumes. At least it's easy for people to avoid cigarette smoke... those who choose to that is.

ONLY if you do go into a town or city - hence why I don't live in one.

But SMOKERS don't seem to be able to avoid 'city smoke' AND nicotine smoke - double whammy, bad luck for THEM!:(

[scumdog]

It annoys people who don't grasp the concept that man is free to do what he wants. It benefits me no end :yes:

You sir are an exeption (boy, are you EVER!):devil2:

Most smokers I've met try to expound the 'benefits' of smoking. Except thos trying to give up.

On the 'giving up' thing, funny how I've yet to meet a smoker who says "Man, this smoking thing is GREAT, I wish I'd started it years before I did!

[mashman]

ONLY if you do go into a town or city - hence why I don't live in one.

But SMOKERS don't seem to be able to avoid 'city smoke' AND nicotine smoke - double whammy, bad luck for THEM!:(

they probably cancel each other out... anyone got any research on that?

[Road kill]

So you reckon inhaling exhaust fumes over a lifetime causes no ill effect? Why did they remove lead from petrol?

Sorry mate I'm a bit slow,,,you'll have to point out where I said that.

In fact if you go back to my earlier post I did in fact say I believe pollution is a major cause in some cancers.

[mashman]

Sorry mate I'm a bit slow,,,you'll have to point out where I said that.

In fact if you go back to my earlier post I did in fact say I believe pollution is a major cause in some cancers.

Oh dear my apologies... I saw there was sarcasm in the comment and OMG focussed on the wrong point can you ever forgive me?

[Edbear]

It annoys people who don't grasp the concept that man is free to do what he wants. It benefits me no end :yes:

Look! I can't bling you twice in a row!

What do you think of the manufacturers as outlined?

[Berries]

Would someone care to list the benefits of smoking? And before you say,"it calms my nerves," it in fact causes the nervousness you claim it calms. So as with other drugs you suffer withdrawal symptoms.
No smoker truly believes there are real benefits. It is the nicotine that does that to you. We all know, hand on heart, that it is bad for you but that little nicotine bastard sits there and you know how satisfying it would be to just have one to appease him.

Nothing I have tried comes close to having the addictiveness of nicotine, and I had a bloody good go trying in the early 90's.

[Road kill]

Oh dear my apologies... I saw there was sarcasm in the comment and OMG focussed on the wrong point can you ever forgive me?

I'll probably get over it.

[mashman]

Look! I can't bling you twice in a row!

What do you think of the manufacturers as outlined?

If there were no more manufacturers, I'd grow my own or go without... but it's my choice to do so, they only supply the product.

[Bikemad]

i don't really care about the rights and wrongs of smoking but...........why the fuck can't you lazy fucktard smokers get the hang of using the ashtray supplied in ya car instead of chuckin ya spit covered butt out the fuckin window?

[Usarka]

i don't really care about the rights and wrongs of smoking but...........why the fuck can't you lazy fucktard smokers get the hang of using the ashtray supplied in ya car instead of chuckin ya spit covered butt out the fuckin window?

It makes the car stink bro.

[Road kill]

Would someone care to list the benefits of smoking? And before you say,"it calms my nerves," it in fact causes the nervousness you claim it calms. So as with other drugs you suffer withdrawal symptoms.

First time I smoked a ciggy was after a car accident I was involved in.
I was 14 and one of the cops that attended gave me a smoke because of the state of me at the time,,it instantly calmed the shakes I was going through and helped me clam down again.

that was a once off,I didn't start to smoke full time until about 3 years after that but the expereince did stay in my mind.
I'm not going to say that cop had any big play in my eventualy taking up smoking because all my family smoked at that time and it was simply inevitable I would as well.


I don't smoke now but did for around 35 years and even though I may not be that articulate I have read I hell of a lot about smoking,it's causes,it's effects,,,it's relationship to cancers,,,and while I agree with the basis of what you say,,a lot of it is the same old emotive stuff I've heard and seen proven incorrect by a never ending line of experts in the past.

What people like you always avoid or don't realise is that nicotine does have a two fold effect,,the first being a calming effect,,followed by the need to continue feeding the resulting addiction.
I guess that just doesn't suit your black an white style of argument,,,but it's also one of the major brain washing causes of people taking up things like smoking and other forms of drug use,,,,they smell the rat so decide to give it a go to find the truth for themselves.

That sort of rat smell was what first got me interested in smoking the herb mon,,,,during the early 60's people were talking total shit about weed,and it sounded to the 10 year old that was me "like bullshit" after all it was coming from proven liars,,,so at 10 years old I set my mind on eventualy finding out for myself if it was true,,,,and oh course it wasn't,,,I didn't become a dribbling junkie over night,,I did lose my virginity on the spot "damn it",,in fact none of the evil shit that the experts claimed would happen did.

No offence ment,but people like you talk about smoking causing cancer but I've never heard one of you admit or mention the fact that the cancer gene naturaly exists in all mammals and it's actualy different forms of stress "smoking being only one of them" that causes the gene to mutate into the cancer form that kills us.

Then there's the other myth that nicotine kills you,,,it doesn't,,,,it's the smoking that kills you.
You can buy nicotine in various forms of patches an pills today,,use it til the day you die but it won't be the nicotine that kills you.
You can ingest nicotine in some forms and it will do you no harm at all,,,yet try to ingest it in another form and it will kill you instantly,,,although not from cancer,,,complex stuff,,,best avoided in any form,,,,but:scratch:

[Edbear]

First time I smoked a ciggy was after a car accident I was involved in.
I was 14 and one of the cops that attended gave me a smoke because of the state of me at the time,,it instantly calmed the shakes I was going through and helped me clam down again.

that was a once off,I didn't start to smoke full time until about 3 years after that but the expereince did stay in my mind.
I'm not going to say that cop had any big play in my eventualy taking up smoking because all my family smoked at that time and it was simply inevitable I would as well.


I don't smoke now but did for around 35 years and even though I may not be that articulate I have read I hell of a lot about smoking,it's causes,it's effects,,,it's relationship to cancers,,,and while I agree with the basis of what you say,,a lot of it is the same old emotive stuff I've heard and seen proven incorrect by a never ending line of experts in the past.

What people like you always avoid or don't realise is that nicotine does have a two fold effect,,the first being a calming effect,,followed by the need to continue feeding the resulting addiction.
I guess that just doesn't suit your black an white style of argument,,,but it's also one of the major brain washing causes of people taking up things like smoking and other forms of drug use,,,,they smell the rat so decide to give it a go to find the

...SNIP...

Then there's the other myth that nicotine kills you,,,it doesn't,,,,it's the smoking that kills you.
You can buy nicotine in various forms of patches an pills today,,use it til the day you die but it won't be the nicotine that kills you.
You can ingest nicotine in some forms and it will do you no harm at all,,,yet try to ingest it in another form and it will kill you instantly,,,although not from cancer,,,complex stuff,,,best avoided in any form,,,,but:scratch:

I too, have done extensive study on it but included drugs in general and the human nervous system. I was addicted to prescription painkillers and well understand the way a drug becomes the very problem it was initially being taken to treat.

Nicotine is added to make it addictive and you are quite correct in that it is smoking, anything at all, that is harmful. Added to the inherent risk are the poisons in cigarettes.

[Edbear]

PS. Cancer has many causes and is a real and scary problem so everyone is actively seeking a cure. The point here is considering this, why would intelligent people actively seek to get it and suffer the disease?

[Virago]

PS. Cancer has many causes and is a real and scary problem so everyone is actively seeking a cure. The point here is considering this, why would intelligent people actively seek to get it and suffer the disease?

Vacuous and silly statements about the motives of others adds little.

Why would intelligent people actively seek serious injury by riding motorcycles?

The line between pleasure and risk is subjective, and entirely the responsibility of the individual. You have no mandate to speak on behalf of their motivation.

[Berries]

The point here is considering this, why would intelligent people actively seek to get it and suffer the disease?
The simple answer is that they don't.

[Flip]

What a waste of money. Fuck all you smokers must be ritch.

[Road kill]

I too, have done extensive study on it but included drugs in general and the human nervous system. I was addicted to prescription painkillers and well understand the way a drug becomes the very problem it was initially being taken to treat.

Nicotine is added to make it addictive and you are quite correct in that it is smoking, anything at all, that is harmful. Added to the inherent risk are the poisons in cigarettes.

Why do you keep saying nicotine is added to tabbaco ? "that's like saying that THC is added to weed to get you stoned.
Nicotine is not added to get you addicted,,it's already there and it's going to catch you no matter what,,the big companys are selling something that has already been used by humans for centurys.
They may have bred a stronger strain but it's still the same stuff with the same end game and if they didn't,people would just smoke more to get the effect they wanted anyway.
The way you tell it makes it sound like we smoked tabbaco for all those years an then suddenly the big companys came along and added a substance just to make it addictive.
Personaly I don't even think the big companys should be held to some moral judgement unless we're going to do the same to big oil,electricity,arms manufacturers,vehicle manufactures an several others,,,after all they're actualy destroying the very planet and the lives of everybody on it while we all dance hand in hand with them as we go on about the evils of tabbaco.
No pun intended,,,but smoking is a smoke screen,,,when none of us can breath because there's no forests left,,,we might just get it then.
Hell,,,I'm bored.

[Akzle]

Nicotine is a kick ass insecticide that's been banned because it's really fucking toxic to mammals... I presume that includes you you pin headed dumb arse motherfucker.
and you kiss your dog with that mouth!:eek5:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5498268_uses-nicotine.html

huh.
many uses. and some positive medicinal attributes.

and personally, i don't extract pure nicotine into a liquid spray it in my lungs...

and where in the world has banned nicotine as an inecticide?

jackass.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Why do you keep saying nicotine is added to tabbaco ? "that's like saying that THC is added to weed to get you stoned.
Nicotine is not added to get you addicted,,

smoking is a smoke screen,,,when none of us can breath because there's no forests left,,,we might just get it then.
Hell,,,I'm bored.

Wow! Just Wow :facepalm:

[Road kill]

PS. Cancer has many causes and is a real and scary problem so everyone is actively seeking a cure. The point here is considering this, why would intelligent people actively seek to get it and suffer the disease?

My generation.
Misinformation.
The more intelligent a person is the more likely they probably are to get caught,,because the misinformation needs to be addressed an there's only one way.
When I say misinformation I'm talking about the parents,the teachers,the community leaders that say/said,,don't do it because it's bad for you ect ect ect,,,,while they happily suck away on their own ciggy.
Quite obviously they were lying through their teeth and trying to keep you from joining the fun,,,,the end result was obvious.
Both then and today,,,brainwashing.
Every second hero on TV had a ciggy hanging from there mouth.
All the sexy women on TV had a ciggy,,,some in a long holder thingy so they didn't get the filth on their fingers.
Luck strike Yamaha anybody?
Malbrough man?
Joe Camel?
Ect
Ect
Tabbaco stained fingers on a man when I was a kid was a sure sign of a hard working man.
My old man smoked,,he was a hard working man that took shit from nobody,,,,why would I of wanted to be any different.
Nicotine is one of the fastest acting addictive drugs know to humanity,,,it's also one of the fastest in leaving your system,,,,20 minites on average,,,which is why their sold in packs of 20-25.
Nicotine is physicaly one of the easiest of addictive drugs to kick,,,but the brain washing is stronger because it's in always in our subconcious and it never stops.
People do not actively seek to get cancer,,cancer is something that happens to other people,,cancer is something that old people get.
Besides you can stop anytime you want anyway,,I just chose not to stop for 35 years,,,but I could of:rolleyes:

Then there's the old "once a junkie always a junkie".
My own mother smoked the whole time she was pregnant,,,so I was probably born addicted to nicotine,which in turn made the step into smoking and being fully addicted almost a given.
Today we still have kids being born to women that have been smokers,,,once a junkie always a junkie" and their kids walk a narrow path from the day their born.
They already have the physical hook in there somewhere,,all it takes from there is for the brainwashing to arrive and it's game over unless their very well prepaired,,,,which doesn't happen..

[GrayWolf]

I can't wait to see you hypocrite's crying and moaning when they move from smokers, to fat people & sugar products etc...then your precious alcohol!...and then....
And if you don't think its gonna happen :laugh:

Nanny says don't do that!...we know best!....heres the figures....they don't lie!....and neither do we!.....you poor poor blind fools

Its about money and control...not health!...otherwise they would do something about about our shit healthcare system and rampant alcohol abuse in NZ :weird:


"Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one act that could most easily defeat us.”
-William Orville Douglas

...I think I want a smoke...and Im not affraid to say so! :bleh:


ps...I do agree smoking is bad for you(hence Im a light smoker!)....but then, so are motorbikes!...well...according to ACC facts n figures :msn-wink:

probably the one reason more 'discreet' is the numbers involved. If 90% of thr population drink, less than 50% now smoke... you suckers are now a minority.
Passive smoking DOES affect peoples health, both my parents smoked and as a kid I was always coughing and 'wheezy', funny thing is when they sent me to boarding school for 4.5 yrs it bloody disappeared. I no longer have to endure the smell of smoke in a pub, or restaurant, or cinema, and roll on when it is no longer legal to smoke in ANY public area. Even 'light' smokers do not realise how offensive the stench is when you pick up an item of clothing you wore 'yesterday' and can smell the reek of smokers on it.

Double the price overnight!!!! 10% every 4 yrs just gives the addicts time to 'adjust' to the increase...

[Usarka]

Bring back smoking in pubs. I'm sick of smelling people's farts.

[Edbear]

Maybe I'm just not too bright but I would never take up smoking and even back when it was de rigeur I couldn't stand the horrible smelly things and the dangers of smoking were known 40 years ago.

I have tremendous sympathy for addicts who want to quit as I know first hand the nightmare that is drug addiction and the living hell it is to get off them.

Coupled with the addictiveness of Nicotine, which the manufacturers load them with to the limits of the law, is that smoking is a habit and it is said that it takes six weeks to break a habit. This also leads to irritability so a double whammy to deal with.

[GrayWolf]

Bring back smoking in pubs. I'm sick of smelling people's farts.

and you dont?? (fart) :baby:

[Mad-V2]

And I thought this was a thread about the annual tax increase on a singled out minority group.....normally that pisses alot of people off here on KB

We all know smoke inhalation can kill you, I feel it slowly killing me every day. But as I can afford to smoke, and I can buy them anywhere I go, and I've smoked for 18 years it is extremely hard to stop.
It's like any drug, you have to hit rock bottom before you realize how bad it actually is. Sadly rock bottom is usually a health scare or death.
If you tell a smoker to quit, they instantly feel like another smoke. If your a smoker and run out of papers to roll a smoke, you go into a panic and won't stop thinking about it until you get that next smoke.
It's not only addictive, it's also habitual. I smoke after eating anything, after sex, after a long journey or completing a task.
It's also a reward thing, your brain rewards you with a small amount of dopamine every time you have a smoke which relaxes you, and calms your nerves
To me it is an evil drug that lines the pockets of cooperate hitmen and government gansters, I'd like to quit, but it's too readily available, and I'll simply keep forking over the cash
If the government actually cared about the people that they are supposed to support and protect, they would ban every addictive substance that is sold in the common marketplace including alcohole. But is that fair on us? No because we are smart enough to make our own informed decisions regardless of how bad they may seem to others.
Cannabis isn't included there as it is not addictive only habitual and so it should be legalized FTW!!!

[Berries]

Bring back smoking in pubs.
Yeah, didn't work for me. I cut down on going to pubs instead.

[scumdog]

Bring back smoking in pubs. I'm sick of smelling people's farts.

Hey, I used logic like that at the freezing works (yonks ago...).

Farted like a pack-horse, loud-as!! - constantly.:woohoo:

And when the smokers whinged I said I'd stop farting in the smoko room when they stopped smoking in it.

Neither of us ended up stopping...

[Edbear]

Vacuous and silly statements about the motives of others adds little.

Why would intelligent people actively seek serious injury by riding motorcycles?

The line between pleasure and risk is subjective, and entirely the responsibility of the individual. You have no mandate to speak on behalf of their motivation.

I wasn't trying to impute motive and I think I clarified my point above in stating my sympathy for addicts. There are a few reasons why someone may start and my question would be more appropriate to anyone considering starting nowadays.

Mind you, once I found out my drug addiction was the cause of my health issues and was in fact leading to my early demise, I pushed through the nightmare of getting off them. Some Doctors were amazed that I did get off them and especially how quickly knowing how bad it was.

[Road kill]

Maybe I'm just not too bright but I would never take up smoking and even back when it was de rigeur I couldn't stand the horrible smelly things and the dangers of smoking were known 40 years ago.

I have tremendous sympathy for addicts who want to quit as I know first hand the nightmare that is drug addiction and the living hell it is to get off them.

Coupled with the addictiveness of Nicotine, which the manufacturers load them with to the limits of the law, is that smoking is a habit and it is said that it takes six weeks to break a habit. This also leads to irritability so a double whammy to deal with.

Smoking is not a habit,it's an addiction.
You can break a habit over night,,,like driving on the left hand side of the road,,we can change the moment we vist a country that drives on the right hand side.
And once again,,the big companys do not add nicotine and I'd love to see any evidence that there's any limit to the amount of nicotine that a ciggy can contain.
Your pretty good at not addressing things you don't have a pat answer to arn't you.
Just another junkie pointing their finger at the other side of the fence while they stick their own head in the sand..

[Edbear]

Smoking is not a habit,it's an addiction.
You can break a habit over night,,,like driving on the left hand side of the road,,we can change the momment we vist a country that drives on the right hand side.
And once again,,the big companys do not add nicotine and I'd love to see any evidence that there's any limit to the amount of nicotine that a ciggy can contain.
Anyway this is a pointless conversation while you continue to make up stuff about companys loading nicotine into tabacco,,,while claiming to be too bright for one when you were hooked on another.
Just more 50's style bullshit to justify your opinion.
Bye.

It was a Doctor who prescribed the very powerful painkiller I became addicted to and I was not monitored well enough while on it leading to being on the maximum dose for years rather than the two weeks now recommended. I thought I had said it was a prescription drug, or did you miss that? I will post the references on Nicotine, I don't make stuff up.

[Edbear]

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/cigarettes-other-tobacco-products

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14576260/ns/health-smoking/t/more-nicotine-cigarettes-years-ago/

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press01182007.html "In an opinion in US vs. Philip Morris USA et. al. Judge Gladys Kessler wrote that tobacco companies "can and do control the level of nicotine delivered in order to create and sustain addiction" and further, that the "goal to ensure that their products deliver sufficient nicotine to create and sustain addiction influences their selection and combination of design parameters."

[Edbear]

http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/pagescm/1003/$File/chemicalconstituentscigarettespriorities.pdf

http://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal/123-1314/4107/content.pdf

It appears Road Kill is correct in that there does not seem to be any current regulations in NZ as regards nicotine levels but the Govt. is considering it as part of the proposals put forward by such as the organisations I have posted the links to.

It is clear, however that tobacco companies have been increasing the levels of nicotine.

[Edbear]

http://www.nsma.org.au/facts/thirdwld.htm


http://www.scribd.com/doc/52181071/Tobacco-in-Third-World-Countries

"Higher tar and nicotine cigarettes in the Third World"

I might stop now...

[mashman]

And in the news... Smokers 1 - Non-Smokers 0 :shifty:

[Usarka]

It was a Doctor who prescribed the very powerful painkiller I became addicted to and I was not monitored well enough while on it leading to being on the maximum dose for years rather than the two weeks now recommended.

I think that's called blaming others and not taking responsibility for your own actions.

[FJRider]

And in the news... Smokers 1 - Non-Smokers 0 :shifty:

To say smokers are winners ... is like saying ... getting 2nd place in a war is still ok.

[Edbear]

I think that's called blaming others and not taking responsibility for your own actions.

On the very contrary, while specialist after specialist, including four Neurologists could not explain the cause of my symptoms, I spent months in my own study and research and eventually discovered that rather than having a neurological disease it was the drug causing them. After presenting my findings to my GP he agreed and worked out a withdrawal program for me. The program was to take 8 months, I did it in 5.

Since then, the potential long term side effects have been made known and the drug is now only prescribed for short term use. It was not the first time, nor the last that I have worked with medical specialists and Doctors by doing extensive study and research myself and discussed my findings with them.

I do not blame others for the choices I make and while applying for Medical Mishap, I did not apply for Medical Misadventure as the Doctor who prescribed the drug was genuinely trying to do his best for me. I was surprised that four Neurologists failed to pick up on the drugs side effects but then they were trying to find a neurological disease. I always research treatments and medications that I am unfamiliar with and take responsibility for my health.

You seem happy to accuse me of all sorts of negative stuff without having a clue who I am or what I have experienced.

[ducatilover]

It annoys people who don't grasp the concept that man is free to do what he wants. It benefits me no end :yes:
Couldn't agree more.
I do things that'll probably kill me before smoking.
What's with this stupid mortal sentimentality? Burn everyone.

[mashman]

To say smokers are winners ... is like saying ... getting 2nd place in a war is still ok.

Aye, because smokers are a special breed of people that are entirely different to non-smokers and therefore cannot be winners.


Couldn't agree more.
I do things that'll probably kill me before smoking.
What's with this stupid mortal sentimentality? Burn everyone.

You gotta squeeze every minute out of your life... which is why they invented the antiques roadshow and shortland street to keep them entertained til the grave.

[willytheekid]

probably the one reason more 'discreet' is the numbers involved. If 90% of thr population drink, less than 50% now smoke... you suckers are now a minority.
Passive smoking DOES affect peoples health, both my parents smoked and as a kid I was always coughing and 'wheezy', funny thing is when they sent me to boarding school for 4.5 yrs it bloody disappeared. I no longer have to endure the smell of smoke in a pub, or restaurant, or cinema, and roll on when it is no longer legal to smoke in ANY public area. Even 'light' smokers do not realise how offensive the stench is when you pick up an item of clothing you wore 'yesterday' and can smell the reek of smokers on it.

Double the price overnight!!!! 10% every 4 yrs just gives the addicts time to 'adjust' to the increase...


Actually even as a light smoker I DO actually realize how offensive it is, hence I don't smoke in public or around others...but as usual on here, it is Soo nice of you to judge me and label me a sucker!, but I think...
http://gloomies.com/comics/2006-07-04-you_you_missed_the_point.jpg
...of my previous post.

I completely understand your personal opinion and view towards smoking, and agree to your right to be able to breathe fresh air

...but what about my rights?...and my personal choices?...say on my own property and in my own company?
Or is it alright to take personal rights and freedom of choice off the minority just to please you!...the majority??

I personally believe in education respecting the rights of others and being able to make my own choices...even it you don't personally agree with it....its called tolerance and understanding...your chosen way is called oppression!

...this issue isn't just about health!...but you will learn that in the next tens years or so.

Ride Safe GrayWolf:niceone:...it is after all, dangerous, costs the health system & taxpayer and we too are a minority remember...just ask ACC, they already have the "figures".

[Maha]

''freedom of choice'' should be devoid when it has an undesireable affect on others or those around you.

[Berries]

Like riding a bike then, as has been pointed out earlier. Bloody death traps.

[Bad Biker]

Stopped smoking 1 month ago (again) for no other reason than I want to quit.

I have done a lot of things in my life some not especially proud of but starting smoking is the one thing I regret - things you do to look cool when your young :bash:

[scumdog]

Stopped smoking 1 month ago (again) for no other reason than I want to quit.

I have done a lot of things in my life some not especially proud of but starting smoking is the one thing I regret - things you do to look cool when your young :bash:

Kinda back up what was said here in an earleir post on this thread:

"And the reason I started is (a) 'cos I could - or (b) 'cos when I was young and silly EVERYBODY else was and I thought I'd be cool if I smoked."
Or something like that. :yes:

[BMWST?]

I wonder how long before Life/Health insurance premiums will be increased ... or refused cover entirely for smokers ...

When the "I didn't know it was dangerous generation" dies out ... the changes may be radical.

where have you been hiding?Whats the first question they ask you when talking about health or life(death actually) insurance

[Maha]

Like riding a bike then, as has been pointed out earlier. Bloody death traps.

Correct, lets put that in perspective...

''freedom of choice should be devoid when it has an undesireable affect on others or those around you''.

Comparatively speaking, when a motorcyclists rides with total disregard for those around him/her, then that is considered to have an undesirable affect on those around that rider.

In summary...would it be the polite to ask a rider that disregards others around him/her, to move on and ride elsewhere?

[carbonhed]

and where in the world has banned nicotine as an inecticide?

jackass.


Errrrrr... here. 1975.

Any other questions?

[mashman]

Any other questions?

Does that include puttin nicotine patches on yer veges?

[Berries]

Correct, lets put that in perspective...

''freedom of choice should be devoid when it has an undesireable affect on others or those around you''.

Comparatively speaking, when a motorcyclists rides with total disreguard for those around him/her, then that is considered to have an undesirable affect on those around that rider.

In summary...would it be the polite to ask a rider that disreguards others around him/her, to move on and ride elsewhere?
I was thinking of passive motorcycling for want of a better term. Some may say that the simple use of a motorcycle shows a disregard for oneself and those around you such as friends and family. Start banning something because it is bad for your health and I don't think there would be enough cotton wool in the world to wrap us all in. Which is hazardous to those who pick it by the way.

[FJRider]

Correct, lets put that in perspective...

''freedom of choice should be devoid when it has an undesireable affect on others or those around you''.

Comparatively speaking, when a motorcyclists rides with total disreguard for those around him/her, then that is considered to have an undesirable affect on those around that rider.

In summary...would it be the polite to ask a rider that disreguards others around him/her, to move on and ride elsewhere?

The freedom of choice has been given by the many, that fought and died to ensure it continues .... and long may it continue. That freedom is not the issue.

The disregard for others is about self. The "my rights are more important than everybody elses" brigade.

And when the shit hits the fan ... "it's not my fault" is heard ... along with "I didn't think that would happen" ...

And ... everywhere else don't want them around either ...

[bluninja]

I was thinking of passive motorcycling for want of a better term. Some may say that the simple use of a motorcycle shows a disregard for oneself and those around you such as friends and family. Start banning something because it is bad for your health and I don't think there would be enough cotton wool in the world to wrap us all in. Which is hazardous to those who pick it by the way.

passive motorcycling, don't you mean passive motorcycling accidents :Oi: If you were to apply the logic in your post then it would be passive cage driving that is hazardous to health and wellbeing (though some motorcyclsits try removing themselves from the gene pool all by themselves).

I agree with the sentiment.....I wouldn't want hot curries banned due to the health effects due to passive inhalation of curry farts :devil2: Just waiting for the rain to stop before I paddle to the takeaway for tomorrows toxic waste.

[Mungatoke Mad]

Would someone care to list the benefits of smoking? It's becoming a cash crop that can supplement weed growers Income during the off season :niceone:

[Ocean1]

In summary...would it be the polite to ask a rider that disregards others around him/her, to move on and ride elsewhere?

No. If he wanted to ride elswhere he'd be there, so riding elsewhere would obvoiusly have an undesirable effect on him.

Your perspective is just that. Yours.

[Akzle]

i don't think they banned nicotine as an insecticide as such, they may have removed it from shop shelves etc but people are still very free to make their own.
could you actually point to an article or law (statute) to back that up? both the HSNO and ACVM acts dont seem to...

i reckon they should have to plaster car panels, bonnet etc with gruesome images of crashes and car related injuries... like kids being run over... the same as they did to smoke packs.

they also took the information off the packs, it used to e informed consumer decision, now it is just anti-smoking propaganda.
smoking does not cause gangrene, either. so it's a lie, and propaganda.
it used to tell you just how much tar, CO and other crap you'd get in your pack. now...


i don't think anti-smokers realise just how offensive their constant whining is... you put on our clothes the next day... and they're still whining all over the place...

[Maha]

No. If he wanted to ride elswhere he'd be there, so riding elsewhere would obvoiusly have an undesirable effect on him.

Your perspective is just that. Yours.

What I was alluding to in that post was...that there should be no comparison made between someone smoking and riding a motorcycle.
I was playng devils advicate.

There will be another thread just like this after next years Budget, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on.

But I stand by this...
'freedom of choice should be devoid when it has an undesireable affect on others or those around you'.
Because if I ''choose'' to stand there and piss on your feet...that should be ok..........right?

[scumdog]

i don't think anti-smokers realise just how offensive their constant whining is... you put on our clothes the next day... and they're still whining all over the place...


Not offensive enough it seem - or the smokers involved would have quit.

I'll stop whining when they stop smoking.

WIN-WIN!:devil2:

[Madness]

Not offensive enought it seem or the smokers involved would have quit.

I'll stop whining whe they stop smoking.

WIN-WIN!:devil2:

I'm going outside for a smoke where I can't hear you whine.

[ducatilover]

Not offensive enough it seem - or the smokers involved would have quit.

I'll stop whining when they stop smoking.

WIN-WIN!:devil2:
Your Harley offends me. It is likely to kill you. I shall ban it.
And shoe laces, fuck them, dangerous things.

[Ocean1]

Because if I ''choose'' to stand there and piss on your feet...that should be ok..........right?

We're both old enough to have learned the most appropriate response to that particular choice.

Many, however don't distinguish who's fly is undone, they tend to blame you because someone else is pissing in their shoes.

[GrayWolf]

If tobacco was discovered today, would it be Class A?
Q:
A: Tobacco would be put through the scientific 'hoops' & would not be released to the market,but would be used for drugs & treatments against ill health.There are so so many elements to 'the evil weed',did you know that the nicotine from ONE cigarette injected intravenously would kill instantly !
http://www.themedicalquestions.com/drug/how-was-tobacco-discovered.html

[carbonhed]

i don't think they banned nicotine as an insecticide as such, they may have removed it from shop shelves etc but people are still very free to make their own.
could you actually point to an article or law (statute) to back that up?


Yes.

http://ecan.govt.nz/publications/Plans/AppendixHa.pdf

Withdrawn because of the acute toxicity.

[Winston001]

If tobacco was discovered today, would it be Class A?
Q:
A: Tobacco would be put through the scientific 'hoops' & would not be released to the market,but would be used for drugs & treatments against ill health.There are so so many elements to 'the evil weed',did you know that the nicotine from ONE cigarette injected intravenously would kill instantly !
http://www.themedicalquestions.com/drug/how-was-tobacco-discovered.html

Cripes youse guys are scary. No smokes here damnit so I'll have to find an Oxycontin to calm down. :devil2:

[Maha]

We're both old enough to have learned the most appropriate response to that particular choice.

Many, however don't distinguish who's fly is undone, they tend to blame you because someone else is pissing in their shoes.

Agreed, but my point was, the term 'Freedom of Choice' is trotted out only when it suits.
...and cannot be applied to every situation that one makes.
Well it can if you really must, but, it is to be use sparingly.

[Akzle]

Yes.

http://ecan.govt.nz/publications/Plans/AppendixHa.pdf

Withdrawn because of the acute toxicity.
:doh: things to note: that is only WELLINGTON REIGONAL COUNCIL
and it is only NICOTINE SULFATE which is DIFFERENT from the nicotine injested through smoking.

nicotine in it's purest form is a brown sticky mess, a bit like opium, that's still not nicotine sulfate (although it's toxicity is higher than smoked) but nicotine doesn't become a lethal vapour until about 250degrees celcius... so... huh.

...even the old rothman's kingsize have less than 2milligrams of nicotine per smoke.
to boil down/extract at 30% yield (good yield by any crack dealer's standard) you're looking at melting down a whole pack to get 13 odd mg
the average lethal dose in rats is 50mg/kg -- this is comparable to humans as they metabolise the chemical the same way. so for me, at 86kg, i would need to boil down 7 packs of ciggies and drink the result in one go to even think about it killing me. given that i'm in good health and have a developed resistance to it, it's likely twice that or more. but again, this is nicotine pure, not nicotine sulfate.


aaaaand to convert the resultant alkaloid liquid into a sulfate (salt) (the kind that WRC banned) i would need to do an acid extraction... maybe run it through a biodiesel wash...


now. any other BS you want debunked?

[imdying]

did you know that the nicotine from ONE cigarette injected intravenously would kill instantly !Go inject some air into your veins and tell us how that went...

[Berries]

now. any other BS you want debunked?
Is it true that smoking is good for you?

[Akzle]

duplication. f*@k

[Akzle]

according to recent surveys, air is good.
- Family Guy Ep. Mr Griffin Goes to Washington


Is it true that smoking is good for you?
what? who ever said that?

i'll happily sit on the stance that it is not bad for you, and certainly there are other far more dangerous things for your health that people willingly subject themselves to daily,


...like flouride in the water and sulfites in food, and sitting on their ass in an office 40 hours a week, driving their car for the 10 minutes-1.5hours (the average commute in NZ is now 1.5hours >< who the fuck wastes 3 hrs a day they don't get paid for in a car?!?!) home and sucking down all that lovely free CO, or getting the freon going with the A/C or climate control. mmmm. nummy nummy freon, and drinking crap beer and whining about smoking -- all of these things are a nett loss to the planet.

chosing to burn a bit of leaf?, please. don't you have anything more important to whinge about? and what gave you the impression it was for you to decide anyway?

[carbonhed]

:doh: things to note: that is only WELLINGTON REIGONAL COUNCIL
and it is only NICOTINE SULFATE which is DIFFERENT from the nicotine injested through smoking.

nicotine in it's purest form is a brown sticky mess, a bit like opium, that's still not nicotine sulfate (although it's toxicity is higher than smoked) but nicotine doesn't become a lethal vapour until about 250degrees celcius... so... huh.

...even the old rothman's kingsize have less than 2milligrams of nicotine per smoke.
to boil down/extract at 30% yield (good yield by any crack dealer's standard) you're looking at melting down a whole pack to get 13 odd mg
the average lethal dose in rats is 50mg/kg -- this is comparable to humans as they metabolise the chemical the same way. so for me, at 86kg, i would need to boil down 7 packs of ciggies and drink the result in one go to even think about it killing me. given that i'm in good health and have a developed resistance to it, it's likely twice that or more. but again, this is nicotine pure, not nicotine sulfate.


aaaaand to convert the resultant alkaloid liquid into a sulfate (salt) (the kind that WRC banned) i would need to do an acid extraction... maybe run it through a biodiesel wash...


now. any other BS you want debunked?

The WRC doesn't ban chemicals you fucking muppet the Govt bans chemicals. The Ministry of Ag and Fish, as it was, banned Nicotine Sulphate in 1975 because nicotine (the active ingredient) is really poisonous and readily absorbed through the skin. It's highly dangerous to the applicator and any wildlife around at the time. It's banned in NZ, goneburger, deleted, no longer available, finito...

You said tobacco had exactly fuckall bad things in it for you and you were talking shit and you were wrong about the insecticide Nicotine being banned over here. Now where's the ignore button.

[Akzle]

The WRC doesn't ban chemicals you fucking muppet the Govt bans chemicals. The Ministry of Ag and Fish, as it was, banned Nicotine Sulphate in 1975 because nicotine (the active ingredient) is really poisonous and readily absorbed through the skin. It's highly dangerous to the applicator and any wildlife around at the time. It's banned in NZ, goneburger, deleted, no longer available, finito...

You said tobacco had exactly fuckall bad things in it for you and you were talking shit and you were wrong about the insecticide Nicotine being banned over here. Now where's the ignore button.yet... you can't point to the legislation (that's the stuff the govt cranks out) that says so? only a schedule on what looks like a memorandum from WDC.... huh.

nicotine as an alkaloid liquid is not as readily absorbed through the skin. the sulfate is.
again, as far as i'm aware people are still free to make and use nicotine sulfate as an insecticide...

did i ever say it wasn't banned? if i remember right, i just asked for proof, you have yet to provide

but please, in all your wisdom, enlighten us all as to what in tobacco is bad for you (and why), when smoked... :niceone::killingme

[Berries]

chosing to burn a bit of leaf?, please. don't you have anything more important to whinge about? and what gave you the impression it was for you to decide anyway?
I was actually on your side until you went menstrual.

[scumdog]

I was actually on your side until you went menstrual.

The nicotine musta got to him...:weird:

[Andy67]

To the person who blinged me for the post about my brothers friend, I can't yet see who you are, but yes you are right and you obviously knew him. My condoleneces, H is taking it pretty hard too. M was a good man.

Andy