View Full Version : Suspension dyno video
Robert Taylor
31st May 2012, 13:23
Here is our new suspension dyno, suitable for doing both forks and shocks. On the bookstands early next week will be the July issue of BRM magazine with an article that elaborates further about this dyno , plus lots of other cool stuff
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sil3nt
31st May 2012, 13:49
Cool piece of kit!
Any reason forks are coming out with compression one fork and rebound on the other?
Robert Taylor
31st May 2012, 20:01
Cool piece of kit!
Any reason forks are coming out with compression one fork and rebound on the other?
Yes it is indeed a very cool piece of kit but the real value is in how much it helps us to determine end specs when working on shocks and forks. We will post a few more You Tube videos over time with some real world solutions aided and abetted by the dyno.
Id like to very clearly point out that its purchase ( nigh on 35k with machining of adaptors added and other ancilliaries) was not funded by my business, it was funded by part of a legacy from my late parents estate . Like many businesses in this broken world we are a low margin industry with overheads and Im sure many think that returns are helped by an avaricious attitude. That is not the case!
With respect to forks with seperated function here are some reasons for same, and there may be other reasons;
1) Cost to make and therefore end price. Less duplication of parts required side to side. Seperated function forks are in fact nothing new.
2) Given that many modern sportbikes ( especially ) have lots of clamping area and large diameter axles they become ''one entity'' ( as eluded to in the video ). So it further allows this seperated mentality
3) In the racing world it is extremely vital that setting changes can be made as quickly as possible and the very best cartridges and forks ( Ohlins ) take that mentality to the nth degree. If you have to make a compression shim stack setting change you only have to lift the lid on one fork, and without removing that fork. This can ( most commonly ) be accomplished in less than 15 minutes, once we managed in 7 minutes.
4) Damping response lag time is significantly foreshortened where a fork only has to provide damping in one direction only. This so that its not constantly reverberating between compression and rebound cycles, and in laymans terms getting ''confused'' and ''wasting time'' establishing that it needs to provide damping in the opposing direction. This is in fact a big deal for top road racers who will push the front end to the edge where it will constantly ''tuck fold''. Such racers have told me that with such forks they can have a near lose and save it and bring it back much more readily, where otherwise with older technology they would have been sliding it down the road.
Thats my 2 cents worth, there will be other plausible advantages.
I always learn something new from you sir. Thank you and I hope your new piece of equipment proves worthy to your dedication to motorcycles.
Tony.OK
31st May 2012, 20:22
Hi Robert, so what are you looking for in regards to the dyno curve Robert? If I was to tell you my shock is for example too stiff feeling, would you dyno then alter and be looking for a shallower rate of angle on the dyno?
Would lag between reb and comp show as a spike?
Looks like a good bit of gear...........can ya redo the vid though as it didn't show your shining personality :bleh:
jellywrestler
31st May 2012, 20:48
how bout a bit of background music in the Vid Robert?, what would you reckon it should be?
Kickaha
31st May 2012, 20:55
They should have some hot chick with big tits narrating it instead of some old guy
vifferman
31st May 2012, 21:05
Hi, Robert.
Does this mean that someone can send you their shock(s) and forks and other information such as rider weight, riding style, etc. and then you can use this machine to dial the damping in (shim stack, bleed valve settings, etc.), or is it just a fine-tuning tool once you've already got things basically set up? (What I'm getting at is does it fundamentally change the way you do suspension tuning?)
Robert Taylor
31st May 2012, 21:19
how bout a bit of background music in the Vid Robert?, what would you reckon it should be?
Incantations , by Mike Oldfield.
Brian d marge
31st May 2012, 21:19
35 k !
do you need "Snap On " when stahlwille will do?
Stephen
Still , if you are going to muddy your hands , I would expect tht thing to be an essential bit of kit , my shock guy over hear also has one ...
unfortunate wasted on my Enfield
Robert Taylor
31st May 2012, 21:20
They should have some hot chick with big tits narrating it instead of some old guy
Sorry, keeping the suitably endowed twins to myself.
Robert Taylor
31st May 2012, 21:28
Hi, Robert.
Does this mean that someone can send you their shock(s) and forks and other information such as rider weight, riding style, etc. and then you can use this machine to dial the damping in (shim stack, bleed valve settings, etc.), or is it just a fine-tuning tool once you've already got things basically set up? (What I'm getting at is does it fundamentally change the way you do suspension tuning?)
Candidly, its important to remember that its still a tool of trade, albeit one that can verify if your setting direction is correct or otherwise before you laboriously bolt in and thenagain remove from the bike because it still didnt exactly live up to expectations. Suspension guys are not ''born gurus'', this is all about experience and committment.
We recently revalved a 2012 Aprilia Tuono Sachs brand rear shock. Reasonable shock but terrible settings that cause a very harsh ride. We already had Ohlins aftermarket force curves on the database relevant to that model and we simply revalved the Sachs shock to match the Ohlins force curves as closely as possible. We have never met the customer, he sent us the shock ( and forks ) We revalved, dyno'd, optimised and sent back. He is a very happy customer.
Moreover this teaches us a few things about the effect of different types of setting techniques
Robert Taylor
31st May 2012, 21:29
35 k !
do you need "Snap On " when stahlwille will do?
Stephen
Still , if you are going to muddy your hands , I would expect tht thing to be an essential bit of kit , my shock guy over hear also has one ...
unfortunate wasted on my Enfield
We had an Italian dyno, like many things Italian it broke. This time we bought the real thing
Pussy
31st May 2012, 21:32
Incantations , by Mike Oldfield.
Or some porno movie background music. I see you weren't wearing your fishnets the day the vid was made?
ducatilover
31st May 2012, 21:49
Neat video Robert. One day when I'm a big boy I'll send you some stuff to make betterer. :cool:
Brian d marge
31st May 2012, 23:46
We had an Italian dyno, like many things Italian it broke. This time we bought the real thing
thats a good bramd ,,
Stephen
p.dath
1st June 2012, 08:14
Very exciting Robert.
I suspect your about to spend a lot more hours at the workshop ... :)
used2Bfast
1st June 2012, 23:54
Id like to very clearly point out that its purchase ( nigh on 35k with machining of adaptors added and other ancilliaries) was not funded by my business, it was funded by part of a legacy from my late parents estate . Like many businesses in this broken world we are a low margin industry with overheads and Im sure many think that returns are helped by an avaricious attitude. That is not the case!
Thats my 2 cents worth, there will be other plausible advantages.
not knocking what you do as you seam to do it very well, and offer a good product and service, but don't cry povity (you know how to charge) I've had nearly a 2k service bill for ohlins work from you , & had ohlins on three bikes now, you charge what you think its worth and people pay it , you'll pay this machine off in no time,
why is it i pay $231.02 for a rear spring from you and can buy one retail in the states for $99 usd , (Nzd landed here for 135 mark ) as I've done both,
you must be buying at a whole sale rate as other shops around the world are from ohlins, and should be able to offer a more completive prices . to stop people going off shore.
Sorry to sturr you up, but I've had a couple beers tonight and this has bugged me for a while now.
yes everybody has a right to make money , its simple economics. but the figgers don't even come close to each other.
Kickaha
2nd June 2012, 06:54
not knocking what you do as you seam to do it very well, and offer a good product and service, but don't cry povity (you know how to charge) I've had nearly a 2k service bill for ohlins work from you
Why don't you try sending your stuff offshore then and see what the service level, turn around time and costs are like?
you charge what you think its worth and people pay it , you'll pay this machine off in no time
So you know what Roberts margins are? very few places would pay a 35K machine off in "no time"
why is it i pay $231.02 for a rear spring from you and can buy one retail in the states for $99 usd , (Nzd landed here for 135 mark ) as I've done both,
you must be buying at a whole sale rate as other shops around the world are from ohlins, and should be able to offer a more completive prices . to stop people going off shore.
Yeah because of course you paid GST and any applicable duites on importing the same as Robert does? and of course Roberts buying volumes and rates would be the same as in America :facepalm:
Sorry to sturr you up, but I've had a couple beers tonight and this has bugged me for a while now.
yes everybody has a right to make money , its simple economics. but the figgers don't even come close to each other.
Really you're just showing your ignorance about a retail market and the costs of importing for someone with their own business in this country
sinfull
2nd June 2012, 07:59
Really you're just showing your ignorance about a retail market and the costs of importing for someone with their own business in this country
Also showing HIMSELF to not be who he says
Robert Taylor
2nd June 2012, 09:34
not knocking what you do as you seam to do it very well, and offer a good product and service, but don't cry povity (you know how to charge) I've had nearly a 2k service bill for ohlins work from you , & had ohlins on three bikes now, you charge what you think its worth and people pay it , you'll pay this machine off in no time,
why is it i pay $231.02 for a rear spring from you and can buy one retail in the states for $99 usd , (Nzd landed here for 135 mark ) as I've done both,
you must be buying at a whole sale rate as other shops around the world are from ohlins, and should be able to offer a more completive prices . to stop people going off shore.
Sorry to sturr you up, but I've had a couple beers tonight and this has bugged me for a while now.
yes everybody has a right to make money , its simple economics. but the figgers don't even come close to each other.
At no time did I plead poverty and Warwick ( Kickaha ) has answered in part with some sobering realities. Later today ( when I have some time ) Ill come back with some hard figures and business realities that many people are blissfully unaware of. For the record I am not poor and up until now everything I have I have worked very hard for. But also I am not wealthy and never will be. There are other forms of very satisfying ''wealth'' and to me they include knowledge accumulation and doing a job well. Also never giving up when you have challenging problems.
But, candidly the ''distortions'' have been done to death a million times over by the infamous Kiwibiker knocking crew and ( really ) I dont have the stomach to at length explain why to many who ( frankly ) are not so predisposed to understand and think that owning a small business in NZ is a license to print money.
Indeed the example you quoted is a classic case of no clearance charges being applied and no gst applied on all charges. Also the exchange rate against greenbacks was clearly at best advantage at time of purchase. BTW we purchase in Swedish krona, not North Mexico dollars.
On the face of it spending 35k on a sophisticated piece of equipment doesnt make 100% sense economically, but we have always been about endeavouring to do the job as best as possible ( and putting it right if the customer is not completely satisfied ) . Rather than cold heartedly maximising returns by placing a line in the sand that says ''thats as good as youre going to get'', when clearly it can be better.
Anyway I will come back with all the whys and wherefores of spring options inventory.
Robert Taylor
2nd June 2012, 17:05
Frankly, for any reputable suspension service company providing a solid and proper level of service springs are the very biggest headache.
As for ourselves ( Kiwi Suspension Solutions ) we have approximately $45000 to $50000 inventory in rear shock springs and front fork springs alone. Seemingly, we always have too many springs but at the same time never enough. But 95% of the time we have 95% of the most typical springs ( Ohlins ) asked for, and often required somewhat more urgently than waiting for an offshore purchase.
I can well recall a farcical and frankly dreadful situation about 3 years back that unfolded. A private road race team that had a couple of riders on CBR600s were having dreadful tyre issues at certain circuits and the situation came to a head at the Timaru round where one of the riders crashed heavily because of mainly tyre issues. This could easily have been prevented if the suspension ''tuner'' was actually providing a credible service by having spring options to hand. Which he didnt. I make no apology in stating that if we provided such a dreadful level of backup we would hang our heads in shame, there is NO EXCUSE for saying you can do the job properly when in fact you cannot.
These are the isues we face with stocking springs, in no particular order:
1) Huge inventory relative to our tiny market, as above. The level we have is ( seemingly ) a bare minimum.
2) But inevitably also you end up with dead stock that for the most part you will die with. There are tax writeoffs but then you dont set out to create dead stock, its a business reality
3) Cost of holding stock i.e such factors as cost of warehouse space. Also most small businesses run an overdraft. Cost of stock equals overdraft equals interest paid to keep that stock. We are not a backyard operation running out of a tin shed, and not having the required alternatives instantly to hand.
4) Our tiny population and therefore customer base means a much lower stock turn than in the first world heavily populated countries, that exacerbates the issues expressed above. The ratio of stockholding against return is a much less palatable number. As is the cost of just opening ones business doors in such a low population base environment.
5) Large distributors ( such as the US ) can order very large numbers and hence get a significantly better buy price. I know what they pay and frankly also their margins are very thin and only sustainable in big volume.
6) Not only do we have the cost of holding stock to provide a CREDIBLE AND QUICK SERVICE we also pay clearance charges and gst on the value of the goods, freight cost and clearance charges. It is therefore a huge bone of contention with small business people like myself that so many offshore internet purchases attract no clearance charges and gst. This is a major distortional factor where we get unfairly maligned as'' ripping people off ''.
7) The very real distortional effects of currency. A US$99 spring is a relatively heavy item to freight and I would reasonably surmise that to send by United States Postal Service ( if you can convince the company to do it in that way ) would add US$25 to 30. So FOB ( free on board ) ex the supplier its say US$125. ( I imagine more than a few have unwittingly had items sent by UPS / Fedex, followed by a heart attack at the cost of same )
So at a high of 86 cents US rate to NZ$ that converts to NZ$145. If you dont get nailed clearances and gst ( which morally you should as a level playing field ) then you are laughing. But add clearance charges, conservatively say at NZ$15 then add 15% gst on top and it baloons out to $184
But the exchange rate is no longer at 86 cents, its at around 76 cents. So pre clearance and gst its at NZ$164, with $206 at clearance and taxes incl.
At 70 cents $178 and $222 respectively
At 65 cents $192 and $238 respectively
At 60 cents $208 and $256 respectively
At 42 cents ( and it peaked at around that low in the early part of this century ) $297 and $359 respectively. So respectfully to the questioner if we head that way sometime in the future ( hard to imagine given what a basket case the US is ) then maybe redirect the same question to the US suppliers...........
Even if my clearance figure / freight estimate is a little off or there is none charged the above should serve as an eye opener in how currency fluctuations and then adding clearance fees and local taxes can significantly impact on end price. Remember also that the quoted price in the States is not the end price. Added to that will be freight and local state taxes.
I remember vividly being in a pub a decade or so ago when I was still a motorcycle dealer. A customer of mine was decrying the cost of motorcycle tyres but conveniently also forgot to mention that he was given a then standard 20th following month payment terms ( ie we as the dealer were both bank and credit facility ) I asked him if when he returned to the bar was he going to try and negotiate a lower price for his beer and also seek a monthly account so that his money could remain in the bank earning interest?
8) Lastly we as a company run a very liberal spring exchange policy ( historically probably too liberal ) Internet spring rate calculators are extremely generic and not so accurate. For instance how is that load displaced? What surfaces do you predominantly ride on? What tyres are you using?. There are many more factors beyond rider weight that impact on spring rate and preload required. One of the biggies is also rider preference. So if a customer is not completely satisfied we undertake to exchange the spring at no further cost sans courier recovery costs. Once a spring is fitted used and tried it instantly becomes second hand so you end up with a significant percentage of springs that are sizably devalued.
Try getting an exchange spring out of the States if the delivered spring is not quite correct.
Very recently we completely revalved and resprung at the customers total cost a set of twin shocks for a CR250 Elsinore. The guy bought the Ohlins twin shocks out of the States on the pretence of low price and was told by the selling company that they were sprung and valved correctly for him. Which they very clearly werent, the bike was too stiff even for road racing and he would have required a season ticket to a chiropractor. In the end event post rectification those shocks now owe him at least NZ$400 more than if he had bought them off us, correctly valved and sprung. More than often we are sorting out such dissapointing purchases out of the States.
It may sound like a broken record to harp on about local investment, commitment and backup infrastructure but it is clear that especially with products requiring technical knowledge and setup the internet is not a holy grail. But we always endeavour to remain as price competitive as possible but without prostituting ourselves to economic imprudence ( within the economic and unforgiving business realities in this country ) or a lower level of service to do so.
Thank you for your enlightening reply Robert
Unfortunately you are preaching to the converted.You will always come across knockers that have absolutely no idea of the costs, expense,personal financial commitment and risk(as opposed to a CEO of a listed company who is useing someone elses money) nor the amount of hours involved to run a small business in good ole NZ.
Personally I prefer to purchase off someone with experience in what they are selling and knowing should something go wrong there is backup service available rather than buying a cheap lemon.
davebullet
2nd June 2012, 19:26
not knocking what you do as you seam to do it very well, and offer a good product and service, but don't cry povity (you know how to charge) I've had nearly a 2k service bill for ohlins work from you , & had ohlins on three bikes now, you charge what you think its worth and people pay it , you'll pay this machine off in no time,
why is it i pay $231.02 for a rear spring from you and can buy one retail in the states for $99 usd , (Nzd landed here for 135 mark ) as I've done both,
you must be buying at a whole sale rate as other shops around the world are from ohlins, and should be able to offer a more completive prices . to stop people going off shore.
Sorry to sturr you up, but I've had a couple beers tonight and this has bugged me for a while now.
yes everybody has a right to make money , its simple economics. but the figgers don't even come close to each other.
So... why can't Robert make a living? must he eat bread and water and live in a leaking tin shed for you to be satisfied? No-one is holding a gun to your head (or maybe they should?)
BMWST?
2nd June 2012, 21:47
its hardly a new concept is it having seperate damping functions in seperate legs? my ol '89 r100 gs has that!
Robert Taylor
2nd June 2012, 23:55
its hardly a new concept is it having seperate damping functions in seperate legs? my ol '89 r100 gs has that!
Thats correct and a few makes and models before that. There is very little thats new but is often proclaimed as new
dazzler
5th June 2012, 12:27
Hi Robert,
Would that comp damping curve on the shock you tested in the dyno be a digressive damping curve?
Also between Race tech and Ohlins, whos springs are usually the closest /most consisent to the indicated numbers?
Robert Taylor
5th June 2012, 13:27
Hi Robert,
Would that comp damping curve on the shock you tested in the dyno be a digressive damping curve?
Also between Race tech and Ohlins, whos springs are usually the closest /most consisent to the indicated numbers?
Yes that one is heavily digressive and has an automotive style dump valve installed.
With respect to springs both Ohlins and Race Tech are pretty consistent / accurate. Its also about ''end conditions'' on springs, thats another lengthy subject.
Brian d marge
5th June 2012, 14:16
. Its also about ''end conditions'' on springs, thats another lengthy subject.
They can be rather subjective ....not just for motorcycle springs ,,either
Stephen
dazzler
5th June 2012, 15:45
Yes that one is heavily digressive and has an automotive style dump valve installed.
With respect to springs both Ohlins and Race Tech are pretty consistent / accurate. Its also about ''end conditions'' on springs, thats another lengthy subject.
When you say dump style are you meaning with large ports?
"end conditions" :scratch: Im all ears.
Thanks
Robert Taylor
5th June 2012, 18:42
When you say dump style are you meaning with large ports?
"end conditions" :scratch: Im all ears.
Thanks
There will be an upcoming and in depth article on the ''dump valve'' in an upcoming magazine article. After that is published ( and only after it is published ) I will elaborate further.
Reference ''end conditions'' many mass produced springs are produced in a low cost way in that the "enthinned'' / ground down ends dont meet / touch the next coil. Compare to a high quality aftermarket spring and they usually touch, except where it is deliberate for a specific performance reason ( seen on some MX springs ). As you compress the spring the ends will compress first until they touch, that gives a very soft initial start rate and then ramps up in a bit of a step as the ends touch. So such springs are not truly linear in action.
dazzler
6th June 2012, 11:52
There will be an upcoming and in depth article on the ''dump valve'' in an upcoming magazine article. After that is published ( and only after it is published ) I will elaborate further.
Reference ''end conditions'' many mass produced springs are produced in a low cost way in that the "enthinned'' / ground down ends dont meet / touch the next coil. Compare to a high quality aftermarket spring and they usually touch, except where it is deliberate for a specific performance reason ( seen on some MX springs ). As you compress the spring the ends will compress first until they touch, that gives a very soft initial start rate and then ramps up in a bit of a step as the ends touch. So such springs are not truly linear in action.
Thanks again. Looking forward to hear about the dump valve :niceone:
Ok So If they are high quality springs and the ends touch the next coil they are a true linear spring and if the dont, chances are they are slightly progressive.. is that correct?
If so, how would you know if you had a low quality MX spring? possibly by the lower rate?
Cheers
Robert Taylor
6th June 2012, 17:53
Thanks again. Looking forward to hear about the dump valve :niceone:
Ok So If they are high quality springs and the ends touch the next coil they are a true linear spring and if the dont, chances are they are slightly progressive.. is that correct?
If so, how would you know if you had a low quality MX spring? possibly by the lower rate?
Cheers
Yes, correct.
We also have digital spring rate testing equipment for rear shock springs and fork springs. That is another piece of equipment that means we are not ''flying blind''. It will be in a future YouTube video. Beyond that there is a kit for the shock dyno that will dynamically test a shock spring through its full cycle.
dazzler
7th June 2012, 15:13
Would that be the intercomp tester?
So did you get the add on spring tester for the dyno?
Which HP dyno is that?
F5 Dave
7th June 2012, 15:36
Ahh, how timely, (although I haven't had time to check this section for a while so I am late to the party. For a few weeks since I heard you were getting the new dyno in I was intending to start a thread called "Show us your curves Dr Bob". As I was out for my walk at lunch I leafed through the BRM article & thought ahh!
I'll watch the vid when I'm not at work & have more than smoko time avail, - so excuse is vid has touched this, but before i forget, my question was going to be along the lines:
Having seen suspension dyno curves back in the 90s in mags, they seem to have disappeared from view. Clearly their complete circle curves were not the full picture as there have been many advances & I assume high speed probably wasn't amply high.
So what is the comparison for example of a Big Piston fork which you explain still has crazy restrictive pistons & say a Race Tech conversion, or Ohlins? Can you see a quantitative difference? The BRM article touched on this a little, maybe I should have bought the mag, but it seemed a touch over lightly & then spotted the Practical Sportsbikes with the 475cc NS400 conversion & TDR on the cover & my magazine budget always goes towards the 2 strokes first.
But as I walk back & remember I see this thread.
pete-blen
7th June 2012, 16:24
and of course Roberts buying volumes and rates would be the same as in America :facepalm:
LOL..
That reminds me...
I was talking with the BOC gases rep a few years ago.
He was telling me how BOC NZ went to Kobe in Japan
after a better deal on mig welding wire...
said hey fella's we buy X tons of mig wire a year of you's
how about a better deal....
Kobe's reply was... you don't even take a days production
from one of our plants....
we are small potato's..
Robert Taylor
18th June 2012, 13:08
Also check out our YouTube video, ''KSS, vacuum bleeding of shocks''
Shaun
29th July 2012, 12:11
This Dyno is an extremelly important piece of equiptment for a serious suspension company like this company is. Years back when the first GSXR 600 750 and 1000 came out, Robert ended up building the first Ohlins shocks ( with his old dyno) to suit all these bikes using me as the test rider, ( we spent many hours and lots of $ doing this) Ohlins released these shocks with only One change to settings ( One extra rebound shim) we came up with:clap: I recieved big pats on the back from Ohlins via Robert for my abillities as a test rider, and that was a buz for me.
As I have experienced first hand just how crucial this tool is, my parteners and I in Adelaide have just purchased the same brand as Roberts ( Second hand and a lower level unit) for me to start learning more about the Dynamics of shocks) I will be going to the USA in 5 weeks for a 3 week training course using them and working with suspension internals with a very reputable company.
The aim is to break into the Auistralian Road suspension market place, ( NOT NZ) This will be a compliment to our workshop facillities.
I have witnessed what Robert learnt years back with his old Dyno, and all customers became winners by him having it, there is NO ONE else as serious about there suspension proffession in NZ
Robert Taylor
31st July 2012, 20:51
This Dyno is an extremelly important piece of equiptment for a serious suspension company like this company is. Years back when the first GSXR 600 750 and 1000 came out, Robert ended up building the first Ohlins shocks ( with his old dyno) to suit all these bikes using me as the test rider, ( we spent many hours and lots of $ doing this) Ohlins released these shocks with only One change to settings ( One extra rebound shim) we came up with:clap: I recieved big pats on the back from Ohlins via Robert for my abillities as a test rider, and that was a buz for me.
As I have experienced first hand just how crucial this tool is, my parteners and I in Adelaide have just purchased the same brand as Roberts ( Second hand and a lower level unit) for me to start learning more about the Dynamics of shocks) I will be going to the USA in 5 weeks for a 3 week training course using them and working with suspension internals with a very reputable company.
The aim is to break into the Auistralian Road suspension market place, ( NOT NZ) This will be a compliment to our workshop facillities.
I have witnessed what Robert learnt years back with his old Dyno, and all customers became winners by him having it, there is NO ONE else as serious about there suspension proffession in NZ
Good on you! The suspension game in the Pacific region needs lifting out of the dark ages. It amazes me how many people attempt to revalve stock suspension units and dont actually truly know exactly what affect it has had at every point of the damping force curves. It might feel better but without being able to graphically view the curve is it as ideal / optimised as it could be?
What we all forget is that high end suspension manufacturers use laboratory dynos, spring testing equipment etc allied with solid road and track testing to arrive at good settings. It makes sense that committed service shops should also have test equipment to graphically show the effect of setting changes etc.
One thing that has opened the eyes is how less than ideal many aftermarket piston kits ( there are several manufacturers worldwide ) are with their ''customised valving''. These kits all have the potential to work really well but some of the setting suggestions are wide of the mark. Using our knowledge / database from dyno runs we as a company ( KSS ) are well placed in being able to give solid reccommendations for settings for the kits we sell. Of course we will help those that buy the kits off us, not if purchased offshore.
Moreover this has liberated another market for us, reworking stock shocks to a high standard / huge improvement. ( Very often they DONT require aftermarket piston kits! This at a very affordable cost where the owner cannot afford to purchase a high quality aftermarket shock i.e Ohlins, WP or Penske. We have done a very detailed article on modifying stock Triumph 675 shocks, published in the current issue of BRM magazine.This explains in laymans terms all the whys and wherefores of link ratio curves, spring rates and preload and damping force curves. That stock 675 rear end is beset with 3 major flaws / issues, but the article is relevant to suspension in general
Without a suspension dyno this would have taken a month of Sundays to get the result we did with dyno work. Mediocrity and ''flying blind'' just doesnt cut it. Shaun can confirm that from our first experience with suspension dyno work, allied with track testing. He won a 600 title and then Craig Shirriffs 2 x titles, all on the back of dyno work that Shaun and I did, in doing so finding a technique that both he and Craig benefited from. BUT, its very important that this is not only about racing, its in fact 80% about improving road bike suspension for more control, but also better ride quality / compliance.
Anyone interested in that article should seek out that BRM magazine currently on the bookshelves
F5 Dave
1st August 2012, 10:16
Back to an earlier question; it would be interesting to see graphically the limitations of say a BPF piston vs say a G.Valve, perhaps GSXR1000 in a much earlier BRM article which was criticised as being flow restrictive. Just for interest's sake, I realise it is easier to type a request than have to go find & download suitable curves.
ok will go buy the BRM, but I just spent my bike mag money this week.
Robert Taylor
1st August 2012, 20:43
Back to an earlier question; it would be interesting to see graphically the limitations of say a BPF piston vs say a G.Valve, perhaps GSXR1000 in a much earlier BRM article which was criticised as being flow restrictive. Just for interest's sake, I realise it is easier to type a request than have to go find & download suitable curves.
ok will go buy the BRM, but I just spent my bike mag money this week.
Thats a timely reminder thanks Dave. Today we did a lot of work on a Race Tech piston upgrade for BPF forks in a year 12 GSXR1000, including a number of runs to test the response range of the clickers. ( which was excellent ) Notably the rebound valving reccommendation was well wide of the mark, but this is the BIG advantage of having a suspension dyno, we can nail the settings on more than ''blind faith''. So thats totally unique in the NZ motorcycle suspension industry.
We will have some more stock standard GSXR1000 forks turning up over the next few weeks to fit Ohlins TTX25 gas cartridges to. ( recognised worldwide as the very best aftermarket cartridges ) We will be doing dyno runs with those but will also make a point of dynoing the bone stock forks. We will then post in this forum about it.
Id like to reiterate that the dyno was funded from part of a family legacy that I recieved, the NZ market is so small and also in some circles burdened with a ''dutch auction'' mentality, so funding it from ok but not spectacular business profits would in relative terms have taken an eternity. I could have purchased a damn good motorcycle for 35k but frankly this gives me more enjoyment than I would ever feel riding a motorcycle! Moreover there are forms of ''wealth'' other than monetary accumulation. Constant accumulation of knowledge is in many ways a more satisfying form of wealth, and then having the opportunity to positively impart that knowledge
gammaguy
1st August 2012, 22:58
how bout a bit of background music in the Vid Robert?, what would you reckon it should be?
spring
by vivaldi of course:pinch:
dazzler
2nd August 2012, 12:57
Anyone interested in that article should seek out that BRM magazine currently on the bookshelves
Thats a bummer I've never seen that mag on this side of the ditch :(
Has the write up been done about the Dump valve yet?
Robert Taylor
2nd August 2012, 18:13
Thats a bummer I've never seen that mag on this side of the ditch :(
Has the write up been done about the Dump valve yet?
Forward me your e-mail address to robert@kss.net.nz and I will forward both articles. No problem if you are offshore to send them both but here in NZ we wont forward the articles to residents as it is broaching etiquette with the magazine
F5 Dave
3rd August 2012, 09:26
incidentally I went looking for BRM yesterday & not at the local, I'll expand search today.
F5 Dave
3rd August 2012, 09:29
incidentally I went looking for BRM yesterday & not at the local, I'll expand search today. When was it out?
Robert Taylor
3rd August 2012, 10:40
incidentally I went looking for BRM yesterday & not at the local, I'll expand search today. When was it out?
Its September issue, it may just be out or about to be. August issue has the dump valve article.
dazzler
3rd August 2012, 11:17
Forward me your e-mail address to robert@kss.net.nz and I will forward both articles. No problem if you are offshore to send them both but here in NZ we wont forward the articles to residents as it is broaching etiquette with the magazine
Thanks Robert. Your a gentlemen and a star.
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