New Ohlins gas cartridges

[Robert Taylor]

Pictured are new Ohlins gas charged front fork cartridges for 600 / 1000cc class bikes destined for road racing and hardcore track day riders. A second post will follow with further details and pricing

[bones1999]

Oh is this what you fitting to mine???? Nice!!!

[Robert Taylor]

We take a keen interest in World Supersport 600 Racing because it is a very top level of racing and the suspension components that these guys race with are essentially the same as what is available to us here in New Zealand. As far as I can work out there are at least 4 main suspension companies represented i.e Works level Showa, Bitubo, K-Tech and of course our beloved Ohlins brand. Maybe also some smaller players but all companies are doing a good job at that level.
Ohlins dont have a monopoly on supply into this class as they virtually have in WSBK, MotoGP, Moto 2 and Moto 3. But what is very evident is that consistently they have a near monopoly on the bikes that finish in winners circle. Currently Ohlins suspended Keenan Sofoglu has a handy lead in WSS600 and that is backed up by the 2nd and 3rd place points runners also using Ohlins product to great effect.
All of these riders are using Ohlins TTX gas cartridges and the new and even better TTX36 mark 2 rear shocks, also Ohlins steering dampers. EXACTLY THE SAME EQUIPMENT YOU CAN PURCHASE HERE IN NZ.
Of course here in NZ in recent years most of the National championships in the premier classes have been won using TTX36 rear shocks in combo with Ohlins FGK 25mm cartridges, then NIX25 cartridges and then NIX30 cartridges ( all non pressurised )
NIX30 second generation cartridges continue to be available and are a very capable piece of kit that we have developed very good settings for, well suited to our tracks. In fact Ohlins suspended bikes took out the first 5 places in the national championship. NIX30 cartridges are very well priced and extremely easy to make setting changes to in VERY QUICK time

TTX25 Ohlins gas cartridges lift the game even further for the most hardcore racers, as follows;

1) More instantaneous damping response due to TT ( twin tube ) recirculating technology. Gas pressurisation also eliminates cavitation, giving more positive and totally consistent performance. That is why all forks in the top world racing classes are pressurised.

2) Aiding this foreshortening of damping response lag time is the use of bending shim stacks as check valves for metering reverse checked flow. ''Standard'' checkplates have a throw distance and that takes time to open and shut over that distance. That results in damping lag response time. Where top riders will benefit most from that is when they are feeling the edge of traction as the front end is ''tucking'' on corner entry. This means that the tyre ''comes back'' more readily and the rider can therefore push just a little bit harder

3) We have a very effective valving spec and piston combination for NIX30 that provides decent bump compliance on our mix of bumpy tracks without in any way compromising machine control. This is not an ''out of the box'' setting. TTX25 provide even better bump compliance

4) Relevant to point 2) above riders report excellent contact feel mid corner and excellent brake dive resistance. It actually IS possible to have forks with awesome brake dive control that will also have excellent feel mid corner.

5) We fitted a set of TTX25 to Dennis Charletts GSXR600 for the final 3 rounds of the championship. Whilst he was very happy with the NIX30 he was happier again with TTX25. Some testing before the final 2 North Island rounds yielded an even better base setting and Dennis didnt have to push so hard to secure his championship

6) Whilst the delivered settings are excellent Ohlins have a ''setting bank'' of alternative settings that will suit the rider speed, preferences, tyres used, tracks and main base spring rates used. It would be totally insincere for any suspension tuner involved with any brand to say '' these are perfect out of the box and you will never have to change them''. They can ALWAYS be optimised further and whilst we are talking about other brands I have seen the setting banks of alternative settings for other brands. If they are ''perfect out of the box'' then such setting banks just would not exist.....

7) As with NIX30 making setting changes is extremely easy and extremely quick, thats VERY important for especially top level racers working within compressed time frames and where there arent dozens of suspension engineers walking around at beck and call! SUCH SETTING CHANGES CAN BE MADE WITHOUT LABORIOUSLY REMOVING THE FORKS FROM THE BIKE, THEN REMOVING THE CARTRIDGES, THEN PULLING THEM ALL APART. If there is only half an hour or so to the next practice session or race start having catridges that arent working at optimum and that may take an hour to two hours to valve is just nonsense.
TTX25 can be revalved in practically the same time as NIX30 plus only about 5% more time given that a simple holding tool is employed so that installation automatically resets the gas piston distance. Note that these are a true gas charged pressurised cartridge, as opposed to a crude pressurising coil spring.

8) Allied with extreme ease of setting changes as extolled in 7) above KSS have a proud work ethic in undertaking to make setting changes when requested. We wont tell you to ''harden up'' when clearly the setting is not ideal

9) PRICE. First prototype versions of these came out of the Ohlins race department and the price was ''up there''. But now we are happy to report that we have a special racer package deal at $2999.90 gst incl ( plus Ohlins oil and fitting ) Within that price are included 3 sets of alternative rate fork springs so you can change spring rates for different tracks and track conditions.
This price is limited markup and essentially we have only one price, we dont have a dealer and a retail price.
An interested customer told me over the weekend that a seller of an opposition brand stated that Ohlins gas cartridges were $10000! That is a clear untruth given the above and we think we may know the correct price being the Ohlins distributor!

[Maido]

But will they make me faster!

What is the difference in the TTX36 mark 2 as opposed to the original?

I will be in touch closer to the end of the year to talk turkey.....

[Robert Taylor]

But will they make me faster!

What is the difference in the TTX36 mark 2 as opposed to the original?

I will be in touch closer to the end of the year to talk turkey.....

From the Honda perspective they have certainly been working very well for Jules Cluzel, one of the top title challengers in WSS600.

Yes we can trade what you currently have.

[Shaun P]

How often do they need gas servicing and how is that accomplished?

[Robert Taylor]

How often do they need gas servicing and how is that accomplished?

The removable top unit can be taken out an enormous amount of times without ever affecting the assembled gas piston position. This is accessed from the top of the forks whilst still in the bike ( no fork removal required ) A simple holding tool pre-compresses the internal top out spring on the shaft assembly during re-installation, once the tool is removed there will be a little bit of shaft re-extension on account of top out spring pressure being released. That re-extension displaces a little bit of oil inside the pressurised cartridge and automatically resets the correct piston position. Clever people those Swedes.
Unless the top cap seal leaks ( highly unlikely ) there is no need of constant service. Certainly in NZ racing scenarios we would recommend a full service just prior to the most important racing series. 1 full service per annum or 2 if there is a lot of racing and testing throughout the year. If there are a LOT of bumpy tracks being constantly ridden on then service is required more frequently, as with any suspension unit.
To service PROPERLY Ohlins distributors have all the correct tools and a vacuum bleed pump.

[Robert Taylor]

But will they make me faster!

What is the difference in the TTX36 mark 2 as opposed to the original?

I will be in touch closer to the end of the year to talk turkey.....

TTX36 Mark 2. New main piston with better sealing, new body tubes that dont flex so much on high damping force loads. New poppett springs that improve damping response. Very noticeable on the dyno and track. These are what such riders as most of the top WSBK and WSS600 riders are running. Just evidence victory circle, its predominantly the good Swedish brand.
There are more developments on the way.

[Sensei]

What about these for normal road ridng use Rob ?

[Robert Taylor]

What about these for normal road ridng use Rob ?

I dont see any reason why not. First and foremost they are for road racing and for hardcore trackdays.

But remember I mentioned ''setting banks'' of alternative settings? I also scathingly inferred about those who market product in such a way to say ''you will never have to touch these''. That mistruth is of course a complete load of bollocks except for the most gullible.Your very relevant question calls for reference to the setting bank at the softer end of the scale for such application, irrespective of what brand and type variation of suspension is fitted. For road race there are just as many variables, FACT.

With appropriate valving ( selected from the setting bank ), spring selection and oil level these cartridges should work extremely well on our mix of BUMPY roads. Given that the oil and pressurising gas is completely seperated there is a significant shortening of damping response lag and NO CAVITATION. Plus excellent bump absorption qualities.

Should I ever have the enthusiasm to return to my youth and constantly want to ride motorcycles on the road ( highly unlikely ) I would fit these cartridges, no question.

[Pussy]

I like the idea of no cavitation. Like a TTX shock, less aggressive damping required because of more control?

[Pussy]

As they would say in Japanese.... I reckon these TTX cartridges will be "just the dog's borrocks" for the road, too. May just have to find out....

[Marmoot]

Should I ever have the enthusiasm to return to my youth and constantly want to ride motorcycles on the road ( highly unlikely ) I would fit these cartridges, no question.

So it's bad and not recommended for old people's joints?

[CHOPPA]

Judging by those fork caps they look like they would bolt straight in to my BMW.... :wings:

[Robert Taylor]

I like the idea of no cavitation. Like a TTX shock, less aggressive damping required because of more control?

Initial hold up control is in fact more ''aggressive'' as the threshold to cavitation occuring is that much higher than with conventional non pressurised cartridges. Initial movement is ''caught'' much more readily before the horse bolts from the stable door, requiring less aggressive valving at higher velocities to otherwise ''catch the runaway horse''

[Robert Taylor]

Judging by those fork caps they look like they would bolt straight in to my BMW.... :wings:

A bit of Swede with German produces great looking blue eyed blonde haired beautiful people! Poms and Germans dont mix anywhere near as well.

[Robert Taylor]

So it's bad and not recommended for old people's joints?

No , I like working with the technology much moreso than riding. Incidentally I ride ( test ride ) many different motorcycles every week as part of my proffession. Just dont feel any need to do so for recreation, any more.

[Biggles08]

No , I like working with the technology much moreso than riding. Incidentally I ride ( test ride ) many different motorcycles every week as part of my proffession. Just dont feel any need to do so for recreation, any more.
And its dangerous! :facepalm:

[Robert Taylor]

And its dangerous! :facepalm:

So at this point I will put in a plug for Arai helmets and Alpinestars leather ( with armour in key places ), affording the best possible protection should the unthinkable happen.

I was test riding today when an R1 pulling a near vertical mono for at least 300 metres came past at higher speed. That should be reserved for the racetrack and away from an audience that will likely view unfavourably. And if anyone had come out of a side gate this guy would have easily been cleaned out as he was not in a position of reserve to take avoiding action.

[quickbuck]

So at this point I will put in a plug for Arai helmets and Alpinestars leather ( with armour in key places ), affording the best possible protection should the unthinkable happen.

I was test riding today when an R1 pulling a near vertical mono for at least 300 metres came past at higher speed. That should be reserved for the racetrack and away from an audience that will likely view unfavourably. And if anyone had come out of a side gate this guy would have easily been cleaned out as he was not in a position of reserve to take avoiding action.

That shenanigans is usually reserved for GSXR riders.....

[Robert Taylor]

That shenanigans is usually reserved for GSXR riders.....

And fighter pilots, prior to the Air Strike Force being callously disbanded by an ugly butch lesbian pacifist moron with crooked teeth

[Maido]

So at this point I will put in a plug for Arai helmets and Alpinestars leather ( with armour in key places ), affording the best possible protection should the unthinkable happen.

I was test riding today when an R1 pulling a near vertical mono for at least 300 metres came past at higher speed. That should be reserved for the racetrack and away from an audience that will likely view unfavourably. And if anyone had come out of a side gate this guy would have easily been cleaned out as he was not in a position of reserve to take avoiding action.

Did he have gold clickers?

[White trash]

I was test riding today when an R1 pulling a near vertical mono for at least 300 metres came past at higher speed. That should be reserved for the racetrack and away from an audience that will likely view unfavourably. And if anyone had come out of a side gate this guy would have easily been cleaned out as he was not in a position of reserve to take avoiding action.

Spoken like one jealous of not being able to perform a mingin' wheelie themselves :bleh:

[Robert Taylor]

Spoken like one jealous of not being able to perform a mingin' wheelie themselves :bleh:

No, just a much better sense of self preservation, many could learn from that! And respect for the customers property.

[Robert Taylor]

Did he have gold clickers?

No, which is why he was probably pulling a wheelie, to keep the chatter sticks off the road surface

[White trash]

No, just a much better sense of self preservation, many could learn from that! And respect for the customers property.

Oh on a CUSTOMERS bike, that shit's not on. I'd spew if some dickhead was doing better wheelies than me on my own bike.

[Robert Taylor]

Oh on a CUSTOMERS bike, that shit's not on. I'd spew if some dickhead was doing better wheelies than me on my own bike.

I love you White Trash!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oh on a CUSTOMERS bike, that shit's not on. I'd spew if some dickhead was doing better wheelies than me on my own bike.

best. post. ever.

make him wear your helmet and jacket and get some photos. "Oh yeah, thats me"

[jellywrestler]

I was test riding today when an R1 pulling a near vertical mono for at least 300 metres came past at higher speed.
twas probably Dukie out for a squirt

[jellywrestler]

And fighter pilots, Ditto................

[Robert Taylor]

Back on topic guys, this has degenerated into a fantasy thread

[Maido]

Back on topic guys, this has degenerated into a fantasy thread

Righto, here is a question. Having never ridden on a gas dampened front end, would the "feel" be any different to riding on fluid dampened suspenders? Would I be correct in assuming that as the dampening is done by a gas and not a solid medium that it would be slightly different?

[Tony.OK]

Righto, here is a question. Having never ridden on a gas dampened front end, would the "feel" be any different to riding on fluid dampened suspenders? Would I be correct in assuming that as the dampening is done by a gas and not a solid medium that it would be slightly different?

I thought they still had oil and worked the same as a shock. The gas is there to keep the oil under a constant pressure, oil still does the damping but under pressure has less chance of cavitation. So maybe the changeover between a comp and reb stroke would be "faster" and then give maybe a more direct feel?

Kinda a budget (for want of a better word) version of those fancy SBK/GP suspenders with the external gas canister at the bottom of the forks.

[Robert Taylor]

I thought they still had oil and worked the same as a shock. The gas is there to keep the oil under a constant pressure, oil still does the damping but under pressure has less chance of cavitation. So maybe the changeover between a comp and reb stroke would be "faster" and then give maybe a more direct feel?

Kinda a budget (for want of a better word) version of those fancy SBK/GP suspenders with the external gas canister at the bottom of the forks.

Tony youve nailed it, would you like to now answer all future questions on my behalf....

[Biggles08]

So at this point I will put in a plug for Arai helmets and Alpinestars leather ( with armour in key places ), affording the best possible protection should the unthinkable happen.
Or more accurately Qmoto Leathers and AGV helmets :cool:


That should be reserved for the racetrack and away from an audience that will likely view unfavourably.

Bullshit! Were you not at riders briefing at the AMCC National rounds at HD?....wheelies are not allowed....the racetrack is no place for such irresponsible behavior...especially no handed wheelies!!! :drool:

[Tony.OK]

Tony youve nailed it, would you like to now answer all future questions on my behalf....

Happy to be a freelance consultant for ya, payment in product ok with you?

[Marmoot]

Yep, payment in product ok with me.

[gixerracer]

Or more accurately Qmoto Leathers and AGV helmets :cool:


Bullshit! Were you not at riders briefing at the AMCC National rounds at HD?....wheelies are not allowed....the racetrack is no place for such irresponsible behavior...especially no handed wheelies!!! :drool:

Qmoto Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahado people really wear them
:innocent:

[gixerracer]

Pictured are new Ohlins gas charged front fork cartridges for 600 / 1000cc class bikes destined for road racing and hardcore track day riders. A second post will follow with further details and pricing

Can yo show a picture of the GAS :brick:

[Kevin G]

Qmoto Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahado people really wear them
:innocent:

What he said.

[Robert Taylor]

Can yo show a picture of the GAS :brick:

The gas is colourless / invisible , just like the air out of your heat pumps!

[Biggles08]

Qmoto Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahado people really wear them
:innocent: Only those who have 'Q' uality crashes where nothing but the best protection will do :motu:

[Biggles08]

What he said.

Must be those extra fingers sheriffs has from all the in breeding in the feilding area that makes his sentences hard to understand...so...what exactly did he say? :innocent:

[Biggles08]

The gas is colourless / invisible , just like the air out of your heat pumps!

:moon: there you go RT...straight from the source!

[Robert Taylor]

Must be those extra fingers sheriffs has from all the in breeding in the feilding area that makes his sentences hard to understand...so...what exactly did he say? :innocent:

No Craig has got the regulation number of fingers because there was nothing irregular about Alpine stars gloves when he was contracted by them as a crash tester.
But he really should relieve the accused in the Fielding murder case by coming clean about his part in it.

[Robert Taylor]

Anyway, log into Youtube.com and input KSS suspension dyno, followed by KSS, vacuum bleeding suspension. To provide a complete suspension service this is the sort of equipment required in a fully equipped workshop.

[gixerracer]

No Craig has got the regulation number of fingers because there was nothing irregular about Alpine stars gloves when he was contracted by them as a crash tester.
But he really should relieve the accused in the Fielding murder case by coming clean about his part in it.

If the twat doing my suspension was any good I wouldnt have had half of them crashes

[DEATH_INC.]

an ugly butch lesbian pacifist moron with crooked teeth


Back on topic guys, this has degenerated into a fantasy thread

Really Robert! :laugh:

[Kickaha]

If the twat doing my suspension was any good I wouldnt have had half of them crashes

If the cunt riding the bike was any good there would have been a few less as well

[imdying]

TTX36 Mark 2. New main piston with better sealing, new body tubes that dont flex so much on high damping force loads. New poppett springs that improve damping response. Very noticeable on the dyno and track.Given you've dyno'd them, can you quantify their improved characteristics as a percentage for us?

[Sensei]

Will be getting to try out a Gen2 TTX36 very soon so will be interested how much better it is from my Gen1 WTS

[Robert Taylor]

If the twat doing my suspension was any good I wouldnt have had half of them crashes

If you hadnt been asleep during the Peter Goddard seminars you wouldnt have fitted those aftermarket handlebar clamps that were squeezing the fork tubes under load. If youd have listened when I expressed concern about them in the first place. If you'd opened the throttle sooner, if you'd held it on longer....If youd not hung up your helmet every time there was a raindrop....If youd listened to Dennis...I If you'd listened to your parents when you were young stupid, bulletproof and knew everything, If youd....If, if, if, if ,if ad infinitum!!

[Robert Taylor]

Will be getting to try out a Gen2 TTX36 very soon so will be interested how much better it is from my Gen1 WTS

Yes but its on a different bike with a different motion ratio applied to it and different valving so its hardly apples for apples

[Robert Taylor]

Really Robert! :laugh:

Ive never fantasised about Helen Clark other than a desire to see her burn in hell for evermore and that I would be one of the stokers to ensure the heat was as high:laugh: as possible

[Robert Taylor]

Given you've dyno'd them, can you quantify their improved characteristics as a percentage for us?

Thats hard to express in percentage terms but certainly 1st 2nd and 3rd in points in WSS600 means they are the best thing out there, consistently.

[Tony.OK]

If you hadnt been asleep during the Peter Goddard seminars you wouldnt have fitted those aftermarket handlebar clamps that were squeezing the fork tubes under load. If youd have listened when I expressed concern about them in the first place. If you'd opened the throttle sooner, if you'd held it on longer....If youd not hung up your helmet every time there was a raindrop....If youd listened to Dennis...I If you'd listened to your parents when you were young stupid, bulletproof and knew everything, If youd....If, if, if, if ,if ad infinitum!!

So what your saying is.....................less rebound on the rear shock? Haha I just watched all your vids :bleh:












Oh and a tip..........if ya click the wee quotation box with the + in the bottom right corner of the post you want to quote, you can click as many as you need, then on the last post hit the "reply" button next and reply to all in one post rather than lotsa separate posts :msn-wink:

[gixerracer]

If you hadnt been asleep during the Peter Goddard seminars you wouldnt have fitted those aftermarket handlebar clamps that were squeezing the fork tubes under load. If youd have listened when I expressed concern about them in the first place. If you'd opened the throttle sooner, if you'd held it on longer....If youd not hung up your helmet every time there was a raindrop....If youd listened to Dennis...I If you'd listened to your parents when you were young stupid, bulletproof and knew everything, If youd....If, if, if, if ,if ad infinitum!!

Dennis was not there its all your fault

[Robert Taylor]

Dennis was not there its all your fault

Aw come on Craig you're beginning to sound like Casey Moaner....

[imdying]

Thats hard to express in percentage termsHow come? Does the suspension dyno not output discrete values?

but certainly 1st 2nd and 3rd in points in WSS600 means they are the best thing out there, consistently.No, it means a team put together a winning combination which was well ridden by the rider, but on the nose to attribute that entirely to their suspension supplier!

[Robert Taylor]

How come? Does the suspension dyno not output discrete values?
No, it means a team put together a winning combination which was well ridden by the rider, but on the nose to attribute that entirely to their suspension supplier!

Yes they do give discrete values and there is a softer high speed slope generally with Mark 2. But its not also about damping force values, there is another type of test that shows hysterisis. There is even less hysterisis with the Mark 2 model so therefore faster damping response.
At no time was I attributing any wins / great results solely down to the suspension, but if you evidence that predominantly we are seeing Ohlins shod bikes in victory circle in that class ( and others ) then that reinforces what I was inferring to

[wayne]

the rider has very litlle to do with result, best suspension wins ?

[Robert Taylor]

the rider has very litlle to do with result, best suspension wins ?

At that level its pretty obvious that most of the top riders are VERY good and they will pick what is best for them and where there is good backup. All four main players in the suspension battle are all on any given day excellent ( look at Alvaro Bautistas works Showa shod Honda ) but consistently you usually have one product at the forefront.
In Formula 1 and Indycar its mainly Penske and that company does some VERY clever things. If I wasnt selling Ohlins Penske is a product that Id very much favour.

[imdying]

Yes they do give discrete values and there is a softer high speed slope generally with Mark 2. But its not also about damping force values, there is another type of test that shows hysterisis. There is even less hysterisis with the Mark 2 model so therefore faster damping response.Yeah, that's what I was getting at... if you could quantify that (say after 10 minutes at 5000 cycles per minute, the new design stays within 90% of it's base as opposed to only 85% for the previous version, and having the tools/graphs lets you back that up), then that's one hell of a no BS sales pitch.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at... if you could quantify that (say after 10 minutes at 5000 cycles per minute, the new design stays within 90% of it's base as opposed to only 85% for the previous version, and having the tools/graphs lets you back that up), then that's one hell of a no BS sales pitch.

We are going to do some very subjective back to back on dyno when we have time, stay posted.

[imdying]

We are going to do some very subjective back to back on dyno when we have time, stay posted.Hell yeah, I love that stuff... the more hard data you can give, the more you can help your customers justify the continued expenditure (upgrades, and worth noting you trade previously sold Ohlins componentry, another plus) and beat down the naysayers 8)

[Robert Taylor]

Hell yeah, I love that stuff... the more hard data you can give, the more you can help your customers justify the continued expenditure (upgrades, and worth noting you trade previously sold Ohlins componentry, another plus) and beat down the naysayers 8)

Actually we did a Triumph 675 Daytona stock shock today. The internal spec with respect to rebound damping is in a word CRIMINAL. The silly thing is this bike has probably the best shock piston in it out of all 600cc class bikes. We revalved it 3 times and repeated dyno tests, we now have both compression and rebound damping curves oh so close to an Ohlins TTX shock so once reinstalled into the bike it will be a BOLT IN MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT.
It wont of course turn it into an Ohlins in all respects but at a very affordable price the customer will have excellent bang for buck. In spite of the cost of dyno runs this all up job will cost significantly less than had he purchased and had installed an aftermarket piston kit, and frankly the suggested settings with many of these kits arent always on the money. Set up skill and verification is always required, irrespective of what pistons you are working with.
The whole point is that with this equipment WE ARE NOT FLYING BLIND.
Of course there will always be naysayers and if you are predisposed to having the courage to openly say what you think ( and put your real name to it ) there will always be negativity.

[Edbear]

Why do OEM manufacturers get it so wrong?

[steveyb]

Why do OEM manufacturers get it so wrong?

May one assume you have not ridden on a Japanese motorway, or back road or a European autoroute/autobahn/UK motorway/B-road.
They are: smooth, v-slow, smooth/v-smooth/pretty good/slow.
Not much like NZ roads.

By the way, I hate all negativity. I wish all the negative people would take their negative feelings and anti this and anti that and bugger off. I hate them and all they stand for. They have nothing to offer anybody or anything and are simply trying to make themselves feel better by making others feel bad. NZ roads are all shit and covered in gravel and cowshit. They should build an autobahn right down the middle of the country but of course we won't have that because they are all too negative.

If that George Lawrence where to ride his M1 into the street and pull a wheelie and leave a big black line around the corner, I should say: "Oi, Lawrence, NOOOOO!!!! This is the close, it is not Stowe Corner!!!"

[Robert Taylor]

Why do OEM manufacturers get it so wrong?

Im not complaining and also I dont want the Government to spend any more money on roads!

But the reality is motorcycles ( and not only motorcycles ) are largely engineered ( de-engineered ! ) by accountants. As we have a high ratio of bumpy roads here in the shaky isles they challenge suspension compliance and control much moreso than in the ''first world'' ( or should I say becoming third world ) Northern European and North American countries. So we are extra attentive to those issues here whereas in those other aforementioned countries they get away with such shonky suspension moreso.

The Triumph 675 is one of the very worst examples of a terrible shock allied with a terrible and aggressive link ratio. I guess now there might a 675 owner or two irate that I have negatively maligned their stock suspension units! There is ( cynically ) nothing worse than having the temerity to pick fault with someones pride and joy! Ralph Nader did so in the 60s ( correctly so ) and got vilified by many, especially those with vested interests.

Of course many of these issues are fixable and were I in the market for a 600cc class bike Id seriously consider the Triumph being at the top of my list.

[Robert Taylor]

May one assume you have not ridden on a Japanese motorway, or back road or a European autoroute/autobahn/UK motorway/B-road.
They are: smooth, v-slow, smooth/v-smooth/pretty good/slow.
Not much like NZ roads.

By the way, I hate all negativity. I wish all the negative people would take their negative feelings and anti this and anti that and bugger off. I hate them and all they stand for. They have nothing to offer anybody or anything and are simply trying to make themselves feel better by making others feel bad. NZ roads are all shit and covered in gravel and cowshit. They should build an autobahn right down the middle of the country but of course we won't have that because they are all too negative.

If that George Lawrence where to ride his M1 into the street and pull a wheelie and leave a big black line around the corner, I should say: "Oi, Lawrence, NOOOOO!!!! This is the close, it is not Stowe Corner!!!"

I love your sentiments Steve, even though you need councelling for your questionable socialist sympathies.....

[Edbear]

I was thinking of maybe the worst example, the rotary damper on the TL. Do you find the same issues with the same brands in general or is each shock different regardless?

I guess I'm asking if it is a design or manufacturing issue. Is it like we found with Chinese jacks for example where the design is okay but the quality control in the factory was non-existent?

[Tony.OK]

May one assume you have not ridden on a Japanese motorway, or back road or a European autoroute/autobahn/UK motorway/B-road.
They are: smooth, v-slow, smooth/v-smooth/pretty good/slow.
Not much like NZ roads.

By the way, I hate all negativity. I wish all the negative people would take their negative feelings and anti this and anti that and bugger off. I hate them and all they stand for. They have nothing to offer anybody or anything and are simply trying to make themselves feel better by making others feel bad. NZ roads are all shit and covered in gravel and cowshit. They should build an autobahn right down the middle of the country but of course we won't have that because they are all too negative.

If that George Lawrence where to ride his M1 into the street and pull a wheelie and leave a big black line around the corner, I should say: "Oi, Lawrence, NOOOOO!!!! This is the close, it is not Stowe Corner!!!"
Crickey...............bad day at the office? :crazy::cry:

Actually we did a Triumph 675 Daytona stock shock today. The internal spec with respect to rebound damping is in a word CRIMINAL. The silly thing is this bike has probably the best shock piston in it out of all 600cc class bikes. We revalved it 3 times and repeated dyno tests, we now have both compression and rebound damping curves oh so close to an Ohlins TTX shock so once reinstalled into the bike it will be a BOLT IN MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT.
It wont of course turn it into an Ohlins in all respects but at a very affordable price the customer will have excellent bang for buck. In spite of the cost of dyno runs this all up job will cost significantly less than had he purchased and had installed an aftermarket piston kit, and frankly the suggested settings with many of these kits arent always on the money. Set up skill and verification is always required, irrespective of what pistons you are working with.
The whole point is that with this equipment WE ARE NOT FLYING BLIND.
Of course there will always be naysayers and if you are predisposed to having the courage to openly say what you think ( and put your real name to it ) there will always be negativity.

What sort of rough cost would someone be looking at to do a rear shock Robert? Worth picking up a cheap OEM spare and having one for road and one for track?

[Robert Taylor]

I was thinking of maybe the worst example, the rotary damper on the TL. Do you find the same issues with the same brands in general or is each shock different regardless?

I guess I'm asking if it is a design or manufacturing issue. Is it like we found with Chinese jacks for example where the design is okay but the quality control in the factory was non-existent?

In short, its all haphazard. But in a competitive environment where everyone is wanting a deal there are always lots of shortcuts. You only get what you pay for.

[Robert Taylor]

Crickey...............bad day at the office? :crazy::cry:


What sort of rough cost would someone be looking at to do a rear shock Robert? Worth picking up a cheap OEM spare and having one for road and one for track?

The problem is there will be a competitor or two reading this thread who wont have the intestinal fortitude to be on this site under than under a nom de plume. All jobs vary according to the time and parts required. For anything specific e-mail me robert@kss. net.nz But as I eluded the value / bang for buck is VERY real

[nzspokes]

Why do OEM manufacturers get it so wrong?

Funny you should say that, was thinking while doing Coro loop last weekend how good the suspension on my Bandit feels. Random thought.

[quickbuck]

Funny you should say that, was thinking while doing Coro loop last weekend how good the suspension on my Bandit feels. Random thought.

Really?
The Bandit 1200 I rode had terrable suspension..... Mind, I was 2 up at the time, and it was an import.... so who really knows the history.
Come to think of it, I didn't really look at any settings or even if you could adjust anything....

Was just a ride around the block (100 miles).

[Robert Taylor]

Funny you should say that, was thinking while doing Coro loop last weekend how good the suspension on my Bandit feels. Random thought.

You are easily pleased then.

[nzspokes]

Really?
The Bandit 1200 I rode had terrable suspension..... Mind, I was 2 up at the time, and it was an import.... so who really knows the history.
Come to think of it, I didn't really look at any settings or even if you could adjust anything....

Was just a ride around the block (100 miles).

I believe mine may not be stock.....

[quickbuck]

I believe mine may not be stock.....

That would explain it...... :niceone:

[steveyb]

Innovative Moto Developments (aka Moto Academy NZ) are really pleased to welcome KSS onto the project as a development partner for our Moto 3 bike.
The first step was to examine the standard Showa shock absorber from a former Moto Academy riders own RS125 using the KSS Suspension dynomometer.
It was amazing to see how the shock performed, well, better to say, didn't perform.
The response curves were so far away from what should be acceptable it wasn't funny. This shock had been 'built' by a tuning firm in Japan and was set up for very high speed flowing circuits like Suzuka, but little good for us in NZ.
Yet, our rider had gone 1:14.1 around Manfeild on this shock and standard front forks.
This allowed Dennis at KSS to get elbows deep into the shock, rework the piston, rework the valving and rework the damping systems.
This was then re-dyno'd and the new responses were compared with the more optimal Ohlins curves. The slow speed response was close to the Ohlins curve, but the design simply does not allow the Showa to replicate the Ohlins in this regard, but Dennis got it close.
The high speed curve however, very clearly matched the Ohlins curve, hugely better than it was when they started.
Hopefully our rider will soon test out the new shock and see how it matches the fork mods we have done so we can decide on further optimisation. KSS will be able to offer these modifications to other RS125 owners without the budget for aftermarket suspension.

The suspension dyno is a pretty choice piece of kit. It allows rapid evaluation and modification of suspension in the workshop, so that KSS can actually see what the suspension is doing. Along with the rider feedback that has been previously provided about the suspension performance on the road or track, KSS can change it in the workshop in the right ways that they and the rider believe will improve performance.

One of the bikes that has seriously benefited from dyno work is the Triumph 675. KSS believe that the suspension system on the 675 is one of the better ones around, BUT, the internal settings are not good and seriously undermine the good design of the system. After using their suspension dyno, KSS is now able to reset the OEM 675 suspension to provide a seriously improved response.

The second part of the KSS/Innovative Moto Developments relationship is that KSS will build and develop a brand new Ohlins TTX36 shock absorber for our Moto 3 bike, we are calling the IMD 250. This shock will not be a standard TTX36 but will incorporate brand new technological developments that are not yet available on the general market but are being trialled on Superbikes here and overseas. We will also be developing a new damping system for the Showa RS125 front forks that is based on Ohlins technology, but also not available to the general market. KSS believe that this will provide improved handling for the RS125 and the IMD250, especially.

We look forward to developing this technology and firmly recommend KSS and its new development tools to all riders and racers.

Steve Bagshaw PhD
Moto Academy NZ
Innovative Moto Developments
Inflexion Scientific

[quallman1234]

Yet, our rider had gone 1:14.1 around Manfeild on this shock and standard front forks.

Damn that guy must be the man!

[CHOPPA]

for our Moto 3 bike, the IMD 250.


Steve Bagshaw PhD
Moto Academy NZ
Innovative Moto Developments
Inflexion Scientific


Moto 3??? Sweet, when do we get to see that???

[steveyb]

When it's finished!!

Aiming for October. But Jamie R should have his one done pretty soon.

Strictly speaking they are not Moto 3, but GPMono, but Moto 3 sounds better. Moto 3 bikes strictly are not allowed to use MX engines, but hey, who's counting?

[Clivoris]

Damn that guy must be the man!

He must have been chasing a cute guy.

[SPman]

How relevant are the electronic Ohlins units - are they predominantly a road unit, or are they the wave of the future for all bikes. The 1199S I was looking at a couple of weeks ago looked right weird, with wires sprouting out of the rear shock and the tops of the front forks......

[SWERVE]

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/ktm-production-moto3-bike-for-sale/20993.html

Go on someone...buy one of these:headbang:

[Drew]

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/ktm-production-moto3-bike-for-sale/20993.html

Go on someone...buy one of these:headbang:
Fucken hell, 50 horse power from a single cylinder 250! That is bloody spectacular and £13000 is a bargain.

[Robert Taylor]

How relevant are the electronic Ohlins units - are they predominantly a road unit, or are they the wave of the future for all bikes. The 1199S I was looking at a couple of weeks ago looked right weird, with wires sprouting out of the rear shock and the tops of the front forks......

More and more electronic controls ARE the future and bring it on! I will elaborate further in detail tonight

[CHOPPA]

Fucken hell, 50 horse power from a single cylinder 250! That is bloody spectacular and £13000 is a bargain.

£35000 seems rather expensive....


Apparently Andrew Forward is running a young OZZY rider on a proper Moto3 bike. Id imagine the NSF

[Robert Taylor]

Much of what I am going to say I have stated in previous threads, but anyway here goes.

If we cite the example of the electronically assisted Ducati Mutistrada, Ohlins received an order for 5000 bike sets of suspension and thought ''thats a pretty good order''. Worldwide this model sold in such huge numbers and so quickly that in short order Ducati then ordered another 5000 sets!

So based on this one model and the march of progress there very definitely is a strong future and ever increasing presence for more and more electronic controls. This has relentlessly happened with all sorts of consumer goods, why should it be any different with motorcycles and their suspension units?

40 odd years ago we were dicking around with DC generators on motorcycles, they were a pain in the butt, needed constant maintenance and were unreliable. Now all the charging systems are all solid state and apart from the dodgiest Chinese stuff are largely maintenance free and reliable. THATS PROGRESS.

During that same period ignition systems were largely contact breaker points. Voltage output was often abysmal and struggled to ''light the fire''. Maintenance required was constant and costly. Ignition curves were crude and dictated by the crude technology of the day. Now ignition systems are solid state, the curves can be programmed wherever you want them, theres enough available voltage to run a small home and ( Chinese rubbish aside ) they are largely reliable and maintenance free. THATS PROGRESS

20 odd years ago and further back you turned up at a racetrack with a big box of needles and jets and spent all day fiddling with accursed flat slide carburetors that were sensitive to the number of clouds in the sky. Now you turn up with a laptop and interface cable. THATS PROGRESS

At street races we often witness a ludicrous situation of seeing a Harley with bone stock suspension horribly wobbling its way around the track, when it could be so much faster and stable with even a little amount spent on sorting it. THATS RIDICULOUS

Several years back Yamaha WSBK team turned up at Donington with electronically assisted TTX36 and began to demolish the opposition. The flow path and response range of the manual clickers is so wide on a twin tube design that it lends itself well to the addition of ( electronically controlled ) servomotors to vary the click position for any given circumstance on the track. THATS PROGRESS

How many of you have been to a track day and noted that if you wound in a long way the compression clickers on the front forks you would have much improved brake dive resistance and would therefore be able to brake later into a corner? But negatively you would lose edge grip through the corner. Similarly in the rear end if you wind out the rear rebound a long way you may gain exit grip and sidegrip but the negative would be that it would then top out too readily under hard braking. SO, SETTING CLICKERS MANUALLY IS A COMPROMISE AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. WHY ACCEPT COMPROMISE?

Imagine if you had suspension that automatically did all this for you, linked into myriad sensors, many of those already on modern bikes and just needing an interface. The technology is there and will slowly be introduced and constantly improved on targeted models. Just today we received an order for a BMW Adventure bike set and in the spring we will be testing with a trackday bike. THATS EXCITING

The Ohlins system that Yamaha WSBK team employed was in short order banned not so much because of the system itself but because of a fear of the Mechatronics technology that BMW might bring from its prior Formula 1 activities. But that could have been managed and in fact the end cost of the Ohlins stuff was by no means moonbeams if you factored in economy of scale. Electronic consumer goods have had a history of becoming more affordable as they get produced in larger numbers.

The Ohlins techs that you see in abundance at WSBK / MotoGP rounds would still have been revalving ( the valve shims are still there, this is Mechatronics, a marriage of the mechnical and electronic elements ) and would be harnessing their laptops further ( with an interface box and cable) to reset the parameters within which the automatic bleed adjusters worked . SO WHAT? Technicians at work making useful progress, its not all about the riders.

About 3-4 years back we did the ultimate pi..take in NZ road racing by turning up with a TTX equipped R6 with some mock electronic servomotors and leads that looked just like WSBK stuff. But the shock was still normal manual adjust as per everyone else. The bike was immediately faster than it had been previously because concurrent with that pi..take we had also built Ohlins NIX25 cartridges for it. It immediately attracted a LOT of interest and it was readily apparent that some competitors and team managers were getting their knickers in a twist about it. Craig Shirriffs colluded in this elaborate charade by walking down to another pit and asking ''what do you think of the new suspension Sam has got? What suspension? ....The electronic stuff'' Apparently the body language was ''interesting'' and visits to Sams pit were so numerous youd have thought there were naked cheerleaders co-habitating there. ( IF ONLY! )

Racing is supposed to improve the breed and has always been a testing and proving ground for new technology. Now because of the cavemen mentality of the regulators in MotoGP, WSBK and many national racing formulae its a perverse situation of more and more road bikes coming out with the technology and not being allowed to harness it. Was electronic ignition banned when it first appeared?

Note that worldwide the ''electronic'' Panignale has been selling really well

Late September I travel to Germany to attend a distributor conference at Ohlins tech centre / European distribution centre in the motorsport complex at the Nurburging. Then I travel on to Stockholm to their main factory for Mechatronics training. By that time we should also be equipped with the interface box, leads and programming software to service and tune the bikes in the market so fitted with this exciting suspension.

This is the future and it should be embraced and not vilified by those who are scared to embrace positive change.

[CHOPPA]

haha yeah that was so funny! Everyone was down there having a look, myself included!

The explaination Sam gave me was pretty convincing and it certainly seemed like a good idea to be able to flick a switch to change between 2 settings. The new shock for the ZX10 sounds even better!

[jellywrestler]

youd have thought there were naked cheerleaders co-habitating there.



MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM naked cheerleaders...

[quallman1234]

How do these servo's know the current location? GPS? Its actually pretty simple to do!

Could they remove the clickers and work very accurately between the clickers to somewhat more accurately tune the suspension? By moving the needle valves accurately?

[Drew]

How do these servo's know the current location? GPS? Its actually pretty simple to do!

Could they remove the clickers and work very accurately between the clickers to somewhat more accurately tune the suspension? By moving the needle valves accurately?
Brake lever and throttle sensors. Grab brake and gett oodles of compression damping at the front, let it go and it softens up. Give it some jandle and the rebound winds off at the back.

There are a multitude of in veterans that would take some time to map, but simple enough.

Tilt sensors/speed sensors if you wanna get stupidly complicated. Even a gyro. Once you know the data they send, you could quite easily make an adjustment for it.

[Robert Taylor]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM naked cheerleaders...

Would you like me to organise some of those instead?

[Robert Taylor]

How do these servo's know the current location? GPS? Its actually pretty simple to do!

Could they remove the clickers and work very accurately between the clickers to somewhat more accurately tune the suspension? By moving the needle valves accurately?

GPS was used with the Yamaha WSBK bikes yes, but the signal has to be very clear. You also dont want the opposition moving the position beacons!

The needle valves are moved exceptionally accurately. More will follow of how this all works after I return from Stockholm mid October

[Drew]

Would you like me to organise some of those instead?

Short answer...YES!

[Robert Taylor]

Brake lever and throttle sensors. Grab brake and gett oodles of compression damping at the front, let it go and it softens up. Give it some jandle and the rebound winds off at the back.

There are a multitude of in veterans that would take some time to map, but simple enough.

Tilt sensors/speed sensors if you wanna get stupidly complicated. Even a gyro. Once you know the data they send, you could quite easily make an adjustment for it.

You are not as silly as you look Drew! Add to that throttle position, rate of change of throttle position, gear selected, acceleration etc. The point is much of that info is already there in current and upcoming oem original fitted ECUs / input signals and its just a matter of piggybacking another black box into the ECU, much like a dynojet power commander.

Technolgy is there to be embraced.

[Robert Taylor]

Short answer...YES!

Swedish, blond blue eyed aryans and an inability to see their feet?

[Drew]

Swedish, blond blue eyed aryans and an inability to see their feet?

You know me well!

[Robert Taylor]

We had a great test with new Ohlins TTX25 gas cartridges at VMCC round 3. We had a set fitted into the BMWs of Sloan Frost and also Dion Sellers. In Dions case we were able to assist him in faciliatating a sale of his old cartridges to another BMW rider and he got a great return on them.While these two bikes were clearly going to run at the front anyway it was a comparison against the NIX30 cartridges that they had both been previously running and were in fact very happy with. Sloan is NZ#3 in NZSBK and the riders who finished ahead of him ( Robbie and Andrew ) also run our Ohlins equipment and solid trackside backup.

We had basically installed these cartridges at the bone stock standard settings that Ohlins deliver them with as we didnt want to second guess. Straight away Sloan reported that compared to his beloved NIX30s brake dive support was noticeably better but also the feel and feedback he was getting from the front end was at a new and higher level. Also through turn 2 which is treacherous with abrupt bumps the front end railed through and absorbed the bumps much more nicely. Dions comments concurred exactly with Sloans but I expected with Dion that because his riding style is a little different that he would soon enough ask for a slightly higher oil level to stop bottoming out, that proved to be the case

We had a plan beyond that because we had run a set on our suspension dyno and had a shim stack setting change that would yield even more brake dive support. This we applied to both Dions and Sloans forks at the same time, but we also deliberately returned Dions oil level back to the standard setting. Both riders reported an even further improvement with no negative side effects whatsoever. After these changes Sloan rattled off a number of laps in the mid 6s and that was pretty good considering he hasnt done a lot of racing recently, the bike is brand new and track temperature didnt climb above 16 celsius. We did no work with the rear but know we need to as there was a little bit of pumping on corner exit to solve, but thats going to be easy and we have also firmly established a direction.
Dions previous best lap ever on that bike was a high 7 in the middle of summer with fresh tyres and a hot grippy track. Yesterday he easily rattled off a 7.3.

The other factor that was very encouraging is that revalve time was only about 2 minutes longer than it would have taken with the NIX30s. Again like the NIX system the left leg is totally compression and the right leg is totally rebound. The cartridge rod can be removed with the forks still in the bike, all you need to do is to quickly remove the top cap, spring and preload spacer and then with a special tool remove the top cartridge cap and rod assembly as a sub unit. Take it to the bench and valve it. Then reinstall with an extra compressive holding tool and clip that when released automatically resets the dividing gas piston to its correct static position.

Ohlins have really thought about that AND CLEARLY RECOGNISE THAT IF A SETTING CHANGE IS REQUIRED FOR DIFFERENT CIRCUITS AND CONDITIONS IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE ACCOMPLISHED VERY QUICKLY. We figure that we could if required do one fork in as little as 10 minutes. Compare that to a competing brand where relatively its an absolute nightmare. You have to in the case of that product remove the fork, then remove the cartridge, then you require a whole raft of tools to remove a sub assembly to access the shim stacks, then change and rebleed, reassemble and refit to the bike . You can imagine that takes an enormous amount more time, and that time just may not be available. So you may have a set of forks that could in fact be made to work better but its too intimidating to make changes. Moreover anyone that sells ANY product and says ''its perfect out of the box and you will never have to make changes'' is deluding you and himself. ''Setting banks'' of alternative settings exist for our product and for other products ( we have seen for other products ), the reason they exist is to provide alternative settings to suit different scenarios and much depends on the tenacity of the suspension engineer to insist on getting the best out of it. They might work pretty damn good out of the box, but might they be able to work even better???? We could say our TTX25 cartridges out of the box were perfect and if we had not made a setting change Sloan and Dion would still have gone away ecstatic with their new equipment. BUT, we did insist on making a change and that yielded a further improvement. Moreover, we are not engaged in any other trackside activities that takes away valuable time from the absolute focus of all that we do, suspension.

That change we had previously dyno tested so we were by no means ''flying blind'', we would perhaps sound a little ''arrogant'' in saying this but we knew pretty much exactly what the riders were going to say. We have spent $35k on this new suspension dyno and thus far its money well spent. ( Not only for racing ) No other motorcycle focused suspension company in New Zealand has the committment to invest in lifting the game so much.

In terms of performance and the ability to make setting changes very very quickly ( dont understimate that ) Ohlins TTX25 are very clearly top of the tree. Moreover they are a true GAS PRESSURISED cartridge.

[dastrix]

Wish you offered your services to us in Sydney Robert!!! Would love your expertise on some of our bikes

[SWERVE]

Im sure it could be arranged....everything/one has a price..... eh Robert!