Steel vs timber framed houses - Opinions please

[Pumba]

So looking for anyone with experience of building with and/or living in a steel framed house (Zog, Frametek, Axxis) rather than a more traditional timber framed place.

Looking for real world experiences rather than the marketing produced by Steel Framing Associations or Cater Holt Harvey. Each other slags off the others product with a lot of technical detail that means little to the end consumer.

So what experiences have people had, particularly regarding heating, shadow marks, noise, Wifi and other reception issues.

All thoughts and opinions welcomed.

[jellywrestler]

make sure the sparky gets it right as some products have suitable holes to pass the wires through and some don't. Some sparkies don't care whether the holes are suitable or not they just drag the wires through and faults could take a while to start to appear and be expensive to chase.

[sil3nt]

Google found this http://www.flashmobs.co.nz/steelframes14.html

[Tigadee]

Seen steel-framed houses go up much faster than the competition so that offsets steel's slight expense, and the frames are lighter and easier to handle too. But as they are relatively new to the market, a lot of contractors don't know how to build them and they need to make sure they get educated and support from the providers like Axxis.

All the steel-framed houses in Chch survived the quakes with minimal or no damage to the sturcture [this from the Royal Commission on the rebuild].

[Oakie]

I've wondered how you get on for such mundane things as screwing something into a stud (shelf bracket etc). How much harder with steel than wood?

[Gremlin]

Wood... easier to work with, known quantity, heavier but fixing things to your wall is much more straight forward. If not treated, can rot etc.

Steel... light weight, fucken bastard for fixing things to walls as it's so thin, corrosion and rust will likely take a few years (with a bit of critical mass) to show up as a problem. It is a problem, despite what advertising says, but it's being kept quiet.

[caspernz]

Wood... easier to work with, known quantity, heavier but fixing things to your wall is much more straight forward. If not treated, can rot etc.

Steel... light weight, fucken bastard for fixing things to walls as it's so thin, corrosion and rust will likely take a few years (with a bit of critical mass) to show up as a problem. It is a problem, despite what advertising says, but it's being kept quiet.

With a few of the friends and family circle in the building trade, the common aspect that is bandied about as being troublesome is 'condensation control' which in years to come would translate to rust in all the places where the galvanising has been damaged. Not unlike wood rotting, if untreated...

[Pumba]

Google found this http://www.flashmobs.co.nz/steelframes14.html

Cheers. I had already read that one. Seems a bit, this is woods positives, and this is steels negatives type comparison. Informative non the less though.

I also have any issue putting much faith in such a table when the author never bothers to tell us who the are, apart form the gmail address in the bottom corner.

[steve_t]

make sure the sparky gets it right as some products have suitable holes to pass the wires through and some don't. Some sparkies don't care whether the holes are suitable or not they just drag the wires through and faults could take a while to start to appear and be expensive to chase.

This is the main problem, AFAIK.

[Laava]

My brother in law recently did a demolition on a steel framed building that had leaky home syndrome. The galv framework was fucked.
If you read that flashmobs report you'll find that the steel framed houses in Chch were harder and more expensive to repair.
They have not stood the test of time here in NZ yet which is a shame as it makes a comparison effectively impossible to make. As a builder, would I build a steel framed house for myself? No. My limited experience with steel framed buidings has not been memorable

[mossy1200]

I've wondered how you get on for such mundane things as screwing something into a stud (shelf bracket etc). How much harder with steel than wood?


Self drilling screws and steel stud screws are ok until you want large weight but a TV bracket would be ok.
Its used in internal office refurbs alot.
Important to incourage services are run up and down and not sideways in walls as alterations etc is easier later.
Glands in all holes even if smooth edge holes are provided.

Personally idd go treated timber outer walls and steel stud internal.
Im only saying this because the steel stud is very straight and quick to install and I would do my own internal non load bearing walls rather than pay a builder.
Used alot in Australia but they perhaps dont have as many rust issues.

[Scuba_Steve]

Google found this http://www.flashmobs.co.nz/steelframes14.html


Cheers. I had already read that one. Seems a bit, this is woods positives, and this is steels negatives type comparison. Informative non the less though.

I also have any issue putting much faith in such a table when the author never bothers to tell us who the are, apart form the gmail address in the bottom corner.

yea I was gonna say seems bias towards wood especially apparent here



Waste
Modern timber framing software creates little. Site waste often reused, burned or landfilled, where 97% carbon is locked up. = 4
Little waste in steel, & can be re-cycled (at additional energy cost.) = 2

so the steel produces next to no waste & can be recycled whereas wood creates little (but more) which could be burned or landfilled if not reusable, yet the wood still achieves the better score of 4 against the steels 2 :wacko:

If your willing to pay for "commercial" steel i.e. the sort that gets used in high rises etc steels a good option, the stuff that gets used for residential homes (the affordable stuff) isn't worth the money IMO course the timber used nowadays doesn't match that from days of old either but it's still couple steps ahead of residential steel at this stage

[steve_t]

As a builder, would I build a steel framed house for myself? No. My limited experience with steel framed buidings has not been memorable

One of the girls at my work's husband is a builder and they've built their own (pretty frickin awesome) home. He also preferred a wooden frame over steel. I never asked him why...

However, before they built their house, they built a little granny flat to live in temporarily out of metrapanel. It's an interesting concept but you can put up a house in a day! Crazy fast! The only issue seems to be that if you want to make any alterations, add a power point or light switch etc, you're screwed cos that stuff needs to be planned for before each panel gets manufactured. That's a pretty big drawback in my books

[Brian d marge]

So looking for anyone with experience of building with and/or living in a steel framed house (Zog, Frametek, Axxis) rather than a more traditional timber framed place.

Looking for real world experiences rather than the marketing produced by Steel Framing Associations or Cater Holt Harvey. Each other slags off the others product with a lot of technical detail that means little to the end consumer.

So what experiences have people had, particularly regarding heating, shadow marks, noise, Wifi and other reception issues.

All thoughts and opinions welcomed.

A lot of houses over here are steel framed ... we built wooden , because cheaper , slightly warmer , steel transmits energy better than wood , BUT was slower to build

Personally I like steel , ...I mean ya cant weld a tv bracket to a wooden house !

Stephen

[YellowDog]

My buddy who works on lots of houses says that the electrics need to be done by a more experienced sparky who knows about steel framing, rather than one on a job cost sheet. Making your entire house a live electrical curcuit would be no fun at all.

Kiwi houses move. Wood is ideal. The potential for matal fatigue in the frame is something that has yet to be experienced, but may occur at some unknown time in the future. I guess we will eventually find out what the time frame is and under which specific conditions.

[Clockwork]

So looking for anyone with experience of building with and/or living in a steel framed house (Zog, Frametek, Axxis) rather than a more traditional timber framed place.

Looking for real world experiences rather than the marketing produced by Steel Framing Associations or Cater Holt Harvey. Each other slags off the others product with a lot of technical detail that means little to the end consumer.

So what experiences have people had, particularly regarding heating, shadow marks, noise, Wifi and other reception issues.

All thoughts and opinions welcomed.



Living in one for the last three years.

Heating is fine. Poor quality aluminium window frames more of a heat loss issue that the house frames. Don't know what shadow marks are. Noise, not an issue at all, neither is the wifi.

Not had anything yet that I needed to fit to a wall that I couldn't. Impact drivers..... Tech screws..... no problem.

My house was built was built by Golden Homes, they pretty much said that steel was a way cheaper option for them than wood!

I think there's a lot of FUD being generated here (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) which is standard procedure to any new market competitor. Lots of people and businesses have a lot vested in the continued use of wood faming so I'm sure the will continue to be lots of "hear say" and "rumors" about the unsuitability of the product.

[JimO]

All the steel-framed houses in Chch survived the quakes with minimal or no damage to the sturcture [this from the Royal Commission on the rebuild].
if the slab is fucked it doesnt matter what framing was used

[Pumba]

Don't know what shadow marks are.

Shadow marks are as a result of condensation inside the wall due the heat transfer properties of the steel framing. From what I have read I believe it is an older problem where thermal breaks where not installed (either at all or properly).

The fact that you don't know is probably a good sign

[HenryDorsetCase]

A lot of houses over here are steel framed ... we built wooden , because cheaper , slightly warmer , steel transmits energy better than wood , BUT was slower to build

Personally I like steel , ...I mean ya cant weld a tv bracket to a wooden house !

Stephen

It'd be bloody hard to weld a tv bracket to a steel framed house too though: its galvanised for a start, not to mention behind the gib board.

I've had clients do both (steel and wood) with no real issues. As always it comes down to the skill, interest level, and care of the builder. The issue i have with it is that a steel frame house is exactly the same as a wooden frame house. SO, in my view, pointless.

Now if you could do something cool, like portal frames and other commercial industrial construction techniques to achieve things like flexible space use, ease of alteration, really really good insulation, great glazing with really good insulation, and stuff like that, then we're talking.

But for a horrible bungalow in a dreadful tract house subdivision with appalling "good taste" covenants? I'd go wood. Treated wood. With a decent builder.

Protip: visit the site not less than once a week. If it is a fucking tip, with rubbish everywhere, and no one obviously in charge, sack everyone on the site and start again. If they can't pick up after themselves they have no business being on your site. If they dont give a shit about their work environment, what sort of terrible job are they doing on your house? Every one I have ever had a problem with, the site has been a midden. The good ones are clean and tidy.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Shadow marks are as a result of condensation inside the wall due the heat transfer properties of the steel framing. From what I have read I believe it is an older problem where thermal breaks where not installed (either at all or properly).

The fact that you don't know is probably a good sign

timber is its own thermal break though.

[HenryDorsetCase]

if the slab is fucked it doesnt matter what framing was used

yep. we've got a real amount of hilarity here with "Technical Categories" and foundation design. Bit of a moving target too....

[ellipsis]

...being an old school builder and having built with timber for the last 40 years makes my thoughts biased toward the stuff...the modern concept of 'product's', and 'product nails' being the glue in what would have once been a timber engineered joint, leaves me a little cold and dubious toward the modern concept of timber framing also...the biggest concern I would have with a domestic steel framed house would be the fire rating of steel to that of timber and the fact that you had better be happy with what the design of the steel house is from the outset as future changes would be a damn sight more involved and complex than that of timber...then again a Luddite I am 'til the end...

[flyingcrocodile46]

On carbon friendliness Timber scores better (in all timber types) providing and because it is sustainable by replanting and uses way less carbon (oil/power etc) in the manufacturing process.


"Shadowing" occurs partly (there are other reasons) as a result of transient moisture within the wall voids. Shadowing (subtle change in colour due to back wetting) due to diffusion of moisture within the wall voids (originally from the interior and exterior environments) into and through the cladding can occur on direct fixed cladding in times when there is a big variation between internal and external temperatures (and/or air pressure levels). Thermal bridges are highlighted during this process. Steel transports heat way better than timber and creates great thermal bridges which give your heat away but they can be mitigated by installing thermal breaks/tape between the cladding and framing. However this problem 'shadowing' will be very unlikely to occur in cavity clad houses because of the introduction of ventilation in the cavity which greatly reduces the opportunity for the diffusing moisture vapor to condensate on and saturate the cladding on the unsealed rear face.

Similar but different set of effects can also give a similar appearance (at a glance) but different close up. There are way to many variables to discuss here without brains turning to mush (mine definitely and probably yours as well). Even with all our experience with leaky buildings the causes and effects of moisture vapor movements through varying combinations of different material types is still a bit of a dark art world wide. This lack of knowledge is very likely contributing to current and future failures in houses. In some respects the health of our houses (and perhaps even our wallets) was better before we started using building paper, insulation, silicone and monolithic cladding systems (which killed air flow withing the voids of our homes.

However, setting aside the myriad of fine details around the issue, the shadowing effect can be more problematic in metal framed buildings that lack good thermal breaks between framing and cladding, but if thermal breaks are installed properly there should be little real difference between steel and timber (in this respect).

As far as rust verses decay in houses being built right now. In the bigger picture there is little difference (unless you treat all your house framing to H4 or H5 levels) in which case the timber should be more durable.

That said, if buying an existing house and looking at a the same comparison between houses built in the preceding 13 to 14 years, take the steel one every time. The timber used in houses built between early 98 and late 2011 (even some in early 2012) was largely untreated and will turn to mush if it gets wet.

I am a qualified weathertightness expert (mostly court/mediation based these days) and once had my own timber supply and pre-nail/truss manufacturing plant and construction business. I have always considered steel as the enemy, but these days if starting a new build I see it as 50/50.

[Usarka]

Steel fucks up compasses. Probably only a problem if you're planning to sail your house around the world.

[SMOKEU]

I'd go for wood since it's more fireproof than steel.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I'd go for wood since it's more fireproof than steel.
Funny. I always thought you were the sort to... 'take wood' over pretty much anything :laugh:

[Big Dave]

My place in Brizzy is timber framed - which I don't really get because of all the expense (and threat) of termite mitigation. Steel would make more sense here.

[speights_bud]

Haven't read through the whole thread, but in regards to what some were saying earlier about corrosion etc...

I spent 5 years working as an engineer for a company that makes many of the components for steel frame roll formers.
I did machining, from the form rollers to the punches and dies that knock out all the screw holes etc.

As we were only a component supplier to the company that made the roll forming machines unfortunately i didn't really get much feedback as out how they worked in practice.

Something that i always thought about was that the material is pre-zinc coated before being formed and punched/sheared. Therefore wherever there is a hole punched, or at the end of each length where it is cut off you have an area of untreated material. But I don't think long term this would be a problem given the sacrificial corrosion properties of the zinc on the rest of the material.

As they say the steel framing is very accurate, but I would personally prefer wood, its a much easier material to work with especially when making alterations at a later date etc. otherwise you have to get sized pieces custom made which i would say will be quite costly as you'll need to get the alterations drawn up.

[caseye]

My two cents worth.
Fuck steel!
Have been in the construction business for over 30 years, Sold both forms of framing for frames and trusses.Used both over the last few years as a construction company manager as well.
If it was my home I'd use H3 minimum treated timber and have absolutely nothing to do with steel framing.
Last couple of posts have highlighted the obvious ones. Every cut or hole made post fame manufacture is a rusting opportunity.
Sparky's hate em for wiring up as so much more time has to be spent making sure wires are not stripped bare on sharp edges etc.
Nope Timber and for a while to come yet.
Plastic is nearly here!

[tri boy]

I like brick/woodframe and brick veneer. Hinuera stone, and block.
I'm no builder, and know feck all about building homes, but steel frame doesn't seem right.
Plus in Aussie, a mate had a steel frame house, and it creaked like a bastard through the night as it cooled down. Probably not a concern here though. MHO

[wynw]

My buddy who works on lots of houses says that the electrics need to be done by a more experienced sparky who knows about steel framing, rather than one on a job cost sheet. Making your entire house a live electrical curcuit would be no fun at all.
.
Easy way to get central heating though:shit::laugh::confused:

[SMOKEU]

Funny. I always thought you were the sort to... 'take wood' over pretty much anything :laugh:

Wood doesn't conduct heat like steel. The wood may be on fire around the outsides, but the inner part is protected for a certain length of time due to the lack of heat conductivity. Steel, however, is a good conductor of heat, and therefore the integrity of the frame may be compromised due to this, and buckle under the pressure of other building materials.

[Pumba]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Please keep it coming. Would love tp hear from some mor people that have built steel frame and why.

[Swoop]

Wood.

Steel framed are a challenge to modify, whereas timber framed are simple to knock a door/window in(or out).
Then again, the DIY mentality, and ability, of this country is diminishing slowly.

Thermal abilities are great. Wiring is simple.

Just keep the bloody plumbers away from timber framing.

[BMWST?]

Now if you could do something cool, like portal frames and other commercial industrial construction techniques to achieve things like flexible space use, ease of alteration, really really good insulation, great glazing with really good insulation, and stuff like that, then we're talking.

Protip: visit the site not less than once a week. If it is a fucking tip, with rubbish everywhere, and no one obviously in charge, sack everyone on the site and start again. If they can't pick up after themselves they have no business being on your site. If they dont give a shit about their work environment, what sort of terrible job are they doing on your house? Every one I have ever had a problem with, the site has been a midden. The good ones are clean and tidy.

what you describe can be done with"timber" too.I agree with your summation of tidines on a site.I would prefer that we used a more naturally durable timber that didnt need treatment,then all the waste could be recycled as firewood or wood pellets.I would consider using untreated pine but with appropriate claddings and forms

[JimO]

nothing worse than a tidy site, your looking for a half a brick or a couple of bits of 4x2 for a prop and there aint nothing lying about

[BMWST?]

nothing worse than a tidy site, your looking for a half a brick or a couple of bits of 4x2 for a prop and there aint nothing lying about
yes there is and its probably easier to find and get the peice of timber you need than a untidy site

[flyingcrocodile46]

Funny. I always thought you were the sort to... 'take wood' over pretty much anything :laugh:


Bit of a moving target

Wood doesn't conduct heat like steel. The wood may be on fire around the outsides, but the inner part is protected for a certain length of time due to the lack of heat conductivity. Steel, however, is a good conductor of heat, and therefore the integrity of the frame may be compromised due to this, and buckle under the pressure of other building materials.


Amazing! HenryDorsetCase you were on the money.:facepalm: It appears that I led the target by an inappropriate margin :laugh:

[HenryDorsetCase]

nothing worse than a tidy site, your looking for a half a brick or a couple of bits of 4x2 for a prop and there aint nothing lying about

the worst one I have ever seen was a few years ago, and it happened to be one in which I had a one third share. So it was MY money on the line. This is in about 2000-2001. We were building a block of five flats and they'd started at one end of the site and were working toward the road (kind of: concrete block ground floor, (garage) prestressed concrete on top of that which was the middle level (lounge dining kitchen), then the top level was the bedrooms. Still standing too, even after the EQs.

I hadnt been to site for about three weeks and cruised down one Saturday morning in my top hat and morning coat, with my cane and my "neice" to lord it over the serfs working on the project, because I am a big time capitalist. Got to units 4 and 5 and their garages were completely full of construction crap: all the builders and all the subbies had been chucking their shit into there for weeks. Also we noticed that there were no light switches in the garage for U4 and 5. Turns out the sparky had gone broke two weeks before, no one had noticed and they'd all just carried on regardless. Hence the conduit surface mount lighs and power points in the garages in those units. Luckily the top two floors hadnt been lined out and it could be un-fucked pretty easily. Cue a couple of very tense meetings with the architect, the building company and various people. Basically the problem was no site foreman, no clerk of works and no supervision by the building company. And every one ever since then thats been a problem: go to the site and it is a tip.

[Berries]

Nobody has mentioned yet that steel is more shiny.

[JimO]

steel is more shiny

[BMWST?]

so with the steel framing,what do they do to to create a thermal break between inside and outside?

[flyingcrocodile46]

so with the steel framing,what do they do to to create a thermal break between inside and outside?

Heat loss through air voids between linings isn't great, particularly when effectively neutralised by way of wraps linings and air seals to prevent air movement and is almost eliminated by adding insulation materials to .... insulate:rolleyes:. Solid materials such as the wall linings and framing absorb heat, creating a potential thermal bridge for heat transfer/loss through radiation. Plaster board and timber are lousy heat conductors (as are a few exterior claddings) as they store the heat and release it slowly, while steel releases it super effectively. The exterior cladding will radiate heat out into the cold exterior environment like a heat sink on a bike regulator or computer CPU/GPU if you don't break the bridge.

If you slap a timber batten (thermal break) between the steel framing and the exterior cladding (last part of the thermal bridge). You end up with a break/restriction in the bridge.

With brick veneer cladding the bridge is greatly reduced by a big reduction in contact points between the exterior cladding and the framing (through use of stand off brick ties) due to the fact that the bricks are largely self supporting. For the most part a thremal break wouldn't be required.

[Berries]

steel is more shiny
What he said.

[boman]

Whilst having no first hand experience, with owning a steel framed house. A very good mate of mine, built one approx 20 years ago. He only recently sold it.

He changed the paint scheme, in it a couple of times,and did the kitchen too. One thing I did notice, that the Gib had no cracks on joins at all, unlike my similar sort of aged wooden framed house. The house was quiet, and warm, and the the best of my knowledge,he had no problems with the electrics or anything else, in the 20 years I have known him.

He would build another again, tomorrow.

[Usarka]

Whilst having no first hand experience, with owning a steel framed house. A very good mate of mine, built one approx 20 years ago. He only recently sold it.

He changed the paint scheme, in it a couple of times,and did the kitchen too. One thing I did notice, that the Gib had no cracks on joins at all, unlike my similar sort of aged wooden framed house. The house was quiet, and warm, and the the best of my knowledge,he had no problems with the electrics or anything else, in the 20 years I have known him.

He would build another again, tomorrow.

Did he ever get lost?

[smidey]

like anything, which ever way you go has benefits and drawbacks.

I have been in the building industry as a QS and project manager for 15 or so years and would go with timber as the steel side has no where near as much "time proven qualities". The main reason is GALVANISING IS A SACRIFICIAL SURFACE, one of my first jobs as a teenager was in a galvanising plant and it is quite easy to accelerate corrosion of zinc. So may times boaties would come in complaining about the first 2m of their chain rusting excessively in a year. This was always down to the dirty great SS swivel they had on the end of it creating electrolysis. there is a huge amount of moisture in houses and that has to go somewhere or not as the case of the houses are today. Old houses leak but the water could get out, now the council has made you plug the holes.

As for building them, a guy i know built a number of houses in steel frame up here and he found it a lot longer to construct them as he could fire nails as fast as he liked but it added quite a lot of time in the whole "put the screw on the drill, start drill etc" for each fixing. Also when modifications needed to be made to the "prescrewed" frames they were buggered, timber they could just cut a nog or stud and nail it in.

Basically there aren't any major benefits in going with steel and we don't really know the drawbacks yet so if it aint broke.......

[Grumph]

like anything, which ever way you go has benefits and drawbacks.

I have been in the building industry as a QS and project manager for 15 or so years and would go with timber as the steel side has no where near as much "time proven qualities". The main reason is GALVANISING IS A SACRIFICIAL SURFACE, one of my first jobs as a teenager was in a galvanising plant and it is quite easy to accelerate corrosion of zinc. So may times boaties would come in complaining about the first 2m of their chain rusting excessively in a year. This was always down to the dirty great SS swivel they had on the end of it creating electrolysis. there is a huge amount of moisture in houses and that has to go somewhere or not as the case of the houses are today. Old houses leak but the water could get out, now the council has made you plug the holes.

As for building them, a guy i know built a number of houses in steel frame up here and he found it a lot longer to construct them as he could fire nails as fast as he liked but it added quite a lot of time in the whole "put the screw on the drill, start drill etc" for each fixing. Also when modifications needed to be made to the "prescrewed" frames they were buggered, timber they could just cut a nog or stud and nail it in.

Basically there aren't any major benefits in going with steel and we don't really know the drawbacks yet so if it aint broke.......

You're not wrong about zinc - and this framing has just a flash coat too versus the bright zinc we're used to seeing on our bikes.
A little known fact is that some people can't work as metal polishers because their sweat is acid and causes a "bloom" on polished metal.I have been told of one case here in Canty where a builder's labourer was obviously like this - a fair amount of what he'd handled was showing corrosion before it was clad. I suspect that the framing should be handled using gloves...but how many will do that ?

[HenryDorsetCase]

And here was me going to build a Lockwood home: perhaps now, not so much:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7142067/Annoyed-owner-faces-1-1m-action


Thats the guts of the "franchise" builder system right there. The punters respond to the "We build a quality product" advertising, and the thought that "Well, its a big company who will look after me if ti goes wrong, and look, they're (wait for it) "Master Builders"..... where do I sign?" the GJ Gardner advertising is a good example of that.

When it does go wrong, inevitably the response is the response from Lockjaw: "We dont guarantee the work of our franchisees, you go fuck yourself, Oh, and don't bad-mouth our product or we'll sue." None of which makes the punter happy.

I've said it before, and its opportune to repeat: It comes down to the skill, care, and interest level of the builder. Always.

I am going to be the worst client ever, because I would like to build a house next. Well, a 60 sq m insulated and airconditioned garage with a couple bedrooms attached.

[HenryDorsetCase]

You're not wrong about zinc - and this framing has just a flash coat too versus the bright zinc we're used to seeing on our bikes.
A little known fact is that some people can't work as metal polishers because their sweat is acid and causes a "bloom" on polished metal.I have been told of one case here in Canty where a builder's labourer was obviously like this - a fair amount of what he'd handled was showing corrosion before it was clad. I suspect that the framing should be handled using gloves...but how many will do that ?

fascinating.

I am looking out from my orifice window at a new build site (commercial) under the new regs. 11m piles, three storey, and they are using a pretensioned EQ resistant timber post and rail system. Its going to be a nice building.

Here's the kicker though: $400/sq m to lease. Thats pre-fitout and with no carparks. I was offered it and have declined.

[flyingcrocodile46]

fascinating.

I am looking out from my orifice window at a new build site (commercial) under the new regs. 11m piles, three storey, and they are using a pretensioned EQ resistant timber post and rail system. Its going to be a nice building.

Here's the kicker though: $400/sq m to lease. Thats pre-fitout and with no carparks. I was offered it and have declined.


You're right about it being the kicker. The industry is fucked at both ends.

The market wont pay enough for builders to make a decent profit out of jobs, so they have no funding to keep and/or train employees properly and in many cases don't make enough to do the job properly. Insufficiently trained people end up doing jobs involving materials and detail requirements that they know nothing about and have no (paid) time to learn about. Fuck ups are made and are ignored/hidden because either they don't have the nouse to realise it or no one has the money to replace the fucked materials and lost labour.

At the other end, the customers who expect delivery of a new Audi on a used Lada budget are left with a sour taste in thier mouthes that gets even worse as the hidden faults come to light. The litigation process starts and already depleted budgets get sucked dry without anything being fixed. The builders lose and the customers lose.

It ain't going to get any better untill the market pays a fair and sustainable (in the medium and long term) price that allows for the labour to drive the nails and the cost of training the monkey to weild the hammer with the level of skill appropriate to the task.

[caseye]

Croc for Queen!
Right on brother, 100% accurate assessment, now all we need is for Jk to say
"OK, Mrs Queenie, how we gunna fix this"
LOL, you know I love you.

[flyingcrocodile46]

[R RATED][/R RATED]
Croc for Queen!
Right on brother, 100% accurate assessment, now all we need is for Jk to say
"OK, Mrs Queenie, how we gunna fix this"
LOL, you know I love you.

Thanks for the sentiment Caseye, but the market and dumb/hungry builders broke it and are the only ones that can fix it. That would require a degree of price fixing (possibly linked to nationaly leveled Rawlinsons type schedule rates) and for the market to change their mindset from one of quantity and time to one of genuine desire and proper appreciation for quality. That would rekindle tradespeoples desire to learn about and provide quality work. It is going to be a very slow process if it happens at all.

Tlhe govt can't do either of pthe above for us. We have to do it for ourselves and that requires a level of awareness and unity that doesn't appear to be on anyone's agenda.

[caseye]

Jeeez! yer starting to sound like Katman.
Not that that's a bad thing.
I know exactly what you mean, have seen builders steadily deteriorate into jigsaw puzzle assemblers, give them a slightly complex roof design and Oh Brother , the sky's falling in. Simply never had the experience to do it.

[Brian d marge]

You're right about it being the kicker. The industry is fucked at both ends.

The market wont pay enough for builders to make a decent profit out of jobs, so they have no funding to keep and/or train employees properly and in many cases don't make enough to do the job properly. Insufficiently trained people end up doing jobs involving materials and detail requirements that they know nothing about and have no (paid) time to learn about. Fuck ups are made and are ignored/hidden because either they don't have the nouse to realise it or no one has the money to replace the fucked materials and lost labour.

At the other end, the customers who expect delivery of a new Audi on a used Lada budget are left with a sour taste in thier mouthes that gets even worse as the hidden faults come to light. The litigation process starts and already depleted budgets get sucked dry without anything being fixed. The builders lose and the customers lose.

It ain't going to get any better untill the market pays a fair and sustainable (in the medium and long term) price that allows for the labour to drive the nails and the cost of training the monkey to weild the hammer with the level of skill appropriate to the task.

agrred

right product right time right place ...if youwant a skyline garage go for it ...but is the skills are being lost ,,,then shitty skyline garages are what you will get .....

open source strangely is kind of like that , try learning something technical under a free market ,,,,not happening

Stephen

[Winston001]

And here was me going to build a Lockwood home: perhaps now, not so much:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7142067/Annoyed-owner-faces-1-1m-action


Thats the guts of the "franchise" builder system right there. The punters respond to the "We build a quality product" advertising..... the GJ Gardner advertising is a good example of that.

"We dont guarantee the work of our franchisees, you go fuck yourself, Oh, and don't bad-mouth our product or we'll sue." None of which makes the punter happy.

I've said it before, and its opportune to repeat: It comes down to the skill, care, and interest level of the builder. Always.



Ah good, you saw that article. I'm waiting to see if the Southland Times gets sued by Lockwood for publishing it but I doubt they will take on Fairfax.

A few years ago my family built a holiday/retirement home. I spent a year (yes - a year) looking at kitset and total-build plans from all over the place plus I talked to clients and others who'd built houses. The one company which stood out was McRaeway from Timaru. So I went with them.

In all honesty I was a pain in the butt, changing rooms and windows, elongating the whole house (600 at a time) and they never complained. Ever. I used my own builder to do the work and that probably cost more but the kitset arrived on the right day, a few bits were missed, they turned up, and there were extras thrown in just to make sure.

Applause.

At the same time a good mate built one of the first steel framed houses. It was a fine home but dear oh dear there was a lot of work getting it up. His builder was good, said it was new, on the job, but...ultimately it was just a (very) good house. Timber would have been just as good.




The market wont pay enough for builders to make a decent profit out of jobs, so they have no funding to keep and/or train employees properly...

It ain't going to get any better untill the market pays a fair and sustainable (in the medium and long term) price that allows for the labour to drive the nails....

Yep yep agreed. Wouldn't want to be a builder at all. The trouble is the average punter can't pay for a bespoke job even though that's what they expect. Not the builders fault and not the buyers fault.

[NighthawkNZ]

I like Woodstock ...

[HenryDorsetCase]

I like Woodstock ...the concert? It had some great bits sure, but some clunkers too

[BMWST?]

I can tell you the prenail industry doesnt make much money,its ussually used as a lever to get the rest of the house.The independents then compete at that level too.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Find me the guys who built this: because this with some minor tweakage is what I want to build.

http://www.mellingmorse.co.nz/samurai-house

[Winston001]

http://www.mellingmorse.co.nz/samurai-house

Nice. And there's a pleasant bit of bush just off Riccarton Road you could use. :niceone:

[flyingcrocodile46]

Find me the guys who built this: because this with some minor tweakage is what I want to build.

http://www.mellingmorse.co.nz/samurai-house

Wow! That is really cool both stunning in design and a pureness of simplicity in construction. I like it. Doesn't look like a complicated build, though glazing looks pricey considering today's H1 compliance requirements and your location.

[sinned]

I am about to have a house built with a gap of 20 years since the last one. So much has changed and so has the price. I can't see why in NZ you would consider steel. Also the framing cost is only one cost of the build, add up all the other components and as part of the total build is not what concerns me.

Foundation cost since chch is significant. My build will be rib raft with driven piles - expensive. Then there is the choice of cladding and the need to be sure it is correctly installed.

While some posts have noted the low rates paid for skill and lack of training the fact is new houses are still too expensive. The cost of having a house built is often more than the cost of a new existing house. So if you build don't plan on selling it any time soon. If I had to sell I reckon I would lose $50k.

[Ocean1]

I am about to have a house built with a gap of 20 years since the last one. So much has changed and so has the price.

Sure has. The brother's having a large garage built. I was over there yesterday, there's twice the timber in the framing there would have been just 5 years ago. So there's part of the added cost, standards changing, probably partly in response to ChCh.

As for the rest? I don't think labour costs are too far out but I'd love to know how much $NZ is being sucked out of the country by CHH et al. I know, for example that a sheet of Gib costs 20% less in Brisbane than it does here, and it's made here. Much of the supply chain is a manopoly, and that's always bad for the market.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Sure has. The brother's having a large garage built. I was over there yesterday, there's twice the timber in the framing there would have been just 5 years ago. So there's part of the added cost, standards changing, probably partly in response to ChCh.


I am planning to do some work on my garage (adding R3.6 to the ceiling and either R2.2 or R2.6 to the walls because I just can't work out there in the winter. Its a Versatile and has come thru the EQ's OK: I am waiting for EQC to come and fix the floor. I was looking at it yesterday and was surprised how little timber there is in it: the Trusses are at ~1.7m spacing and the purlins are level with the top chord of the truss (meaning I have to put the insulation UNDER that somehow). I will have to take some of the glued and screwed ply wall cladding off, but I think the studs are at larger than 600 centres and there is only one dwang in a 2.4m stud. all framing is kiln dried ex 100 x 50: probably not treated.

Current plan is to increase the wall cavities out to around 180mm, running a packer on the top and bottom plates and the studs, add the insulation to the gaps then screw some 12mm ply over that and give it a coat of paint. Not sure what to do in the ceiling but hopefully once i have a nice wide "top plate" I can run packers and then some sort of ceiling. Two concerns: 1. Do I want to DIY it? , and 2. extra weight of packers and ceiling on trusses.

OT sorry. But at least I can alter it. if it was steel I would be fucked.

[unstuck]

It would seem a bit lax, in my opinion, to go to so much trouble HD and not strengthen the trusses.:msn-wink:

[Tony.OK]

I am planning to do some work on my garage (adding R3.6 to the ceiling and either R2.2 or R2.6 to the walls because I just can't work out there in the winter. Its a Versatile and has come thru the EQ's OK: I am waiting for EQC to come and fix the floor. I was looking at it yesterday and was surprised how little timber there is in it: the Trusses are at ~1.7m spacing and the purlins are level with the top chord of the truss (meaning I have to put the insulation UNDER that somehow). I will have to take some of the glued and screwed ply wall cladding off, but I think the studs are at larger than 600 centres and there is only one dwang in a 2.4m stud. all framing is kiln dried ex 100 x 50: probably not treated.

Current plan is to increase the wall cavities out to around 180mm, running a packer on the top and bottom plates and the studs, add the insulation to the gaps then screw some 12mm ply over that and give it a coat of paint. Not sure what to do in the ceiling but hopefully once i have a nice wide "top plate" I can run packers and then some sort of ceiling. Two concerns: 1. Do I want to DIY it? , and 2. extra weight of packers and ceiling on trusses.

OT sorry. But at least I can alter it. if it was steel I would be fucked.

Has it got building paper on the walls? Most don't, if not then don't line the walls as you'll make the framing rot. The steel cladding needs a vapour barrier if you intend on lining, the cladding gets condensation on it when sealed up, building paper lets that run down the outside of the framing.


I believe the main problem with all these leaky homes come down to modern claddings. All these Harditex type products along with flat roofed designs are relying too much on the building paper to keep out moisture. Cappings that are simply siliconed together instead of old school lead flashings don't help either.

Best advice is when building new...........go for a basic pitched roof design with eaves, wooden claddings or solid plaster (if you can find or good subbie). Have a look at the newer homes with textured fibre cement claddings at different times of the day, have seen some bloody horrible ones recently, when the sun shines down the walls you can see every stud underneath.

I've worked on steel and I think its ok as long as the right claddings are used and good contractors are doing the job.

[SPman]

Wow! That is really cool both stunning in design and a pureness of simplicity in construction. I like it. Doesn't look like a complicated build, though glazing looks pricey considering today's H1 compliance requirements and your location.
Looks great.
Doesn't have a bushfire problem, though.....

[SPman]

Lots of steel framed houses built over here (those that aren't double brick cavity)
Good points.....you get a straight wall line....Steel roof trusses are good. Termites won't eat it. (they'll still get into walls and build nests though, as they head for your kitchen/bathroom/linen closet areas)
Downsides....you have to screw everything to it, Hardiplanks, screw fixed, look shit(ter), a bugger to do alterations, need thermal breaks to the external cladding (a lot of Colorbond cladding in country areas here). Vapour barriers aren't used much (?), but aircell foil or insulbreak foil is.
Personally, I prefer working with timber, but, steel framed floor and sub floor and steel roof trusses with timber framing would be the go for a basic style house. Anything different - use timber based or masonry style construction,. ..easier to work with.

[Swoop]

I was very happy to discover that tar paper is still available. I would still happily use it on a job and with a proposed upcoming garage build, will make it a pet project. Yay for the mid-height overlap.


Has it got building paper on the walls?

All these Harditex type products...
I believe we have done Hardies products before. Just don't go there. Shit waiting to happen.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Has it got building paper on the walls?

Yes, and I intend to leave a ~25mm air gap between it and the insulation. somehow.

[Winston001]

I am planning to do some work on my garage (adding R3.6 to the ceiling and either R2.2 or R2.6 to the walls because I just can't work out there in the winter. Its a Versatile and has come thru the EQ's OK: I am waiting for EQC to come and fix the floor. I was looking at it yesterday and was surprised how little timber there is in it: the Trusses are at ~1.7m spacing and the purlins are level with the top chord of the truss (meaning I have to put the insulation UNDER that somehow). I will have to take some of the glued and screwed ply wall cladding off, but I think the studs are at larger than 600 centres and there is only one dwang in a 2.4m stud. all framing is kiln dried ex 100 x 50: probably not treated.

.

Sounds pretty much identical to my Skyline which has stood up to snow albeit having the spouting peel off once. Its sheltered and on rock so storms and earthquakes aren't a problem.

Whats the span? If its 7.2 then according to Blackstone's Commentaries you won't want to load the trusses any more. :msn-wink:

[flyingcrocodile46]

I am planning to do some work on my garage (adding R3.6 to the ceiling and either R2.2 or R2.6 to the walls because I just can't work out there in the winter. Its a Versatile and has come thru the EQ's OK: I am waiting for EQC to come and fix the floor. I was looking at it yesterday and was surprised how little timber there is in it: the Trusses are at ~1.7m spacing and the purlins are level with the top chord of the truss (meaning I have to put the insulation UNDER that somehow). I will have to take some of the glued and screwed ply wall cladding off, but I think the studs are at larger than 600 centres and there is only one dwang in a 2.4m stud. all framing is kiln dried ex 100 x 50: probably not treated.

Current plan is to increase the wall cavities out to around 180mm, running a packer on the top and bottom plates and the studs, add the insulation to the gaps then screw some 12mm ply over that and give it a coat of paint. Not sure what to do in the ceiling but hopefully once i have a nice wide "top plate" I can run packers and then some sort of ceiling. Two concerns: 1. Do I want to DIY it? , and 2. extra weight of packers and ceiling on trusses.

OT sorry. But at least I can alter it. if it was steel I would be fucked.



Has it got building paper on the walls? Most don't, if not then don't line the walls as you'll make the framing rot. The steel cladding needs a vapour barrier if you intend on lining, the cladding gets condensation on it when sealed up, building paper lets that run down the outside of the framing.


I believe the main problem with all these leaky homes come down to modern claddings. All these Harditex type products along with flat roofed designs are relying too much on the building paper to keep out moisture. Cappings that are simply siliconed together instead of old school lead flashings don't help either.

Best advice is when building new...........go for a basic pitched roof design with eaves, wooden claddings or solid plaster (if you can find or good subbie). Have a look at the newer homes with textured fibre cement claddings at different times of the day, have seen some bloody horrible ones recently, when the sun shines down the walls you can see every stud underneath.

I've worked on steel and I think its ok as long as the right claddings are used and good contractors are doing the job.

Good post :niceone: though it wants super absorbant building wrap that lets moisture vapour out through the wrap, rather than a vapour barrier which traps it within the wall as it condensates. The standard weight black bitumous wrap that is typically used probably isn't ideal as it generally has moderate moisture absorbancy properties. Checking the type of wall wrap would be a good idea.




Yes, and I intend to leave a ~25mm air gap between it and the insulation. somehow.



Thats good.

Consider expol insulation as it is rigid (won't slump) and is super easy to fit snug between studs (though E Q likely to result in some movement?). A 10 to 20mm on the inside face is probbably worth as much or more in R value than the equivalent depth of insulation (due to the additional thermal break) .

Paint the exposed faces of the framing with 2 coats of Framesaver peservative and drill downward angling 12-15mm holes in between double studs at 300 crs to fill up with framesaver so it can soak into bigger timber masses for better protection. Scion trials have shown reasonably inspiring test sucesses. Can't recomend it enough if the framing isn't treated to at least H1.2. H1.1 is a proven dud if it gets wet (and it will with direct fixed pressed panel weatherboard siding used on the typical tin garage.

Yes your trusses are at much bigger centres. This is mostly allowed because there is no ceiling loading. Check with a Mitek or Pryda truss manufacturer for a solution (possibly for nothing if you are slick and lucky). If you are lucky you might get away with a 250mm x 50 bottom chord flitch on the intermediate trusses (these garages are designed and built to mega fine margins). You should check your wall bracing calculations to see what sort of upgrade is required to deal with all the extra overhead weight added by the ceiling etc. Try Gib ezybrace on line if you think you can navigate it ok. Or the truss fabricator should be able to check it out for you if you give them lots of jpg photos of the framing all the way around the perimiter so they can see what is there.

You know that the insulation won't count for as much as you might be hoping for if you have a big uninsulated door with big gaps around it.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Actually the garage door is cedar faced, wooden framed and ply backed: its also got pretty good seals and is sectional so seals at the top fairly well. Given my cubic volume is 135 cu m. (roughly) then once insulated a blow heater at 2kw should be OK.

I spoke to Versatile this morning and there are a couple of options to strengthen the trusses: make some intermediate ones shorter in height by 4 inches so they will roll up beside the existing then pack them to height using a 4 x 2 under the bottom chord... fine in theory but the purlins being inset into the top chord is a real problem. Option b is to make some shorter by 8 inches so they will sit under the inset purlins then jack up with the 4 x 2 under. Issue there is you rely on the fixing of the purlin to the existing truss for strenght. Doing htat will require new wall studs also. Thats a fairly costly exercise to be fair.

Another (lighter) option is to use XPS: 75 mm fixed to the underside of the purlins gives R2.7 and would give an air gap too. It has a T & G edge and I can face fix it so it will look tidy enough. A bit of seal foam and its good to go. Not ideal but a damn sight cheaper and quicker than a complete re-engineering of the bloody roof!

A rough calc of surface area underside the roof (ignoring the area of the trusses) is 48sq m. Add a bit for each end say 56sq m. At 30kg per cubic metre the weight in the roof (spread over the whole roof) is 126kg plus fixings say 130kg. I'll still need to box out the top and bottom plates to create my wall cavities (maybe) but that might be the way forward. Cost looks manageable at or around $1000 and a bit.

http://www.composite-nz.co.nz/dynamicPage.asp?pageID=21

And I know that a Triumph Street Triple weighs around 200kg ready to ride, and I supported the entire back end of that bike on one bottom chord of one truss (not for long). So I think thats the way forward.

Fuck:I just realised Ive spent half an hour drawing pictures on my desk pad and doing maths and looking at composite's site. better do some work so I can pay for it.

[Pumba]

OT sorry

Well it is my thread and I dont give a shit. So that must make it ok.

Actually I am loving all the discussions going on in here. We are just looking at options at the moment and it is all dependent on what job outside of Auckland I can secure before anything can happen. TBH I would prefer timber, based on the fact that I know how a timber house feels and how it preforms over a typical life span.

My worry with steel framing is that although it is well proven outside of NZ in my opinion it has never really taken off here and is for all intensive purposes a "new" product. The last thing that I (or the country for that matter) want to be tied up in is another leaky home type situation in 20 years time because all this steel framing has rusted out behind walls due to poor installation that compromised the galvanizing.

Remember when Monolithic Cladding systems were the greatest thing in the world? And no one questioned the installation or how long they would last?

My real problem is that the Mrs has fallen in love with one of the Golden Holmes designs, and they only build in Zog Steel Framing (well not quite true, they have told me they will build it in timber but we will pay for it)

[Pumba]

The real fun part has been looking at what sort of shed I might be able to but up. this is my favorite at the moment.


265589

[flyingcrocodile46]

The real fun part has been looking at what sort of shed I might be able to but up. this is my favorite at the moment.

splash out and buy one with a roof

[ellipsis]

...i'd now concentrate on yer shed...if your mrs has FALLEN IN LOVE with steel, bamboo, macrame of even cardboard framing, all sensibilities are out the window... but you already know that, dont you?...

[Pumba]

Yes I do:brick:

The engineer in me needs to let go.

On the plus side she has told me that all I need to do is chose the section and she will do the house. Therefore there WILL be plenty of shed and general play room.