Power Junkies Rejoice

[eelracing]

YZF framed,CR500,Fuel Injected,70Horses,105kg wet...Made by a Kiwi too.

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[unstuck]

Fucken nice.:niceone:

[Fast Eddie]

hell yea thats choice!

suprised its a first for fuel injected/2 stroke.. thought someone woulda given it a go by now hehe.. mean bike tho!

[Edbear]

hell yea thats choice!

suprised its a first for fuel injected/2 stroke.. thought someone woulda given it a go by now hehe.. mean bike tho!

R&R Powersports builds inj systems for racing jetski's.

[flyingcr250]

Must be a market for this sorta thing? Take in your carbed 2t and get an injection system fitted, i wonder how much of a difference it really makes...

[Jay GTI]

It's in the latest Dirtrider Downunder. Still a work in progress and the article is scant of detail as they are keeping a few things secret until it's done, but it's certainly got incredible potential for a roll in roll out professional conversion.

[george formby]

Phase 1? Phase 2 lighter & more powerful..:eek:

Which begs the question, could an engine (exhaust) management system refine & improve on an expansion chamber? Marvelous!

[eelracing]

hell yea thats choice!

suprised its a first for fuel injected/2 stroke.. thought someone woulda given it a go by now hehe.. mean bike tho!

Back in 1993 Honda had a system up and running on the roadrace 500GP bike and squeezed 200mph out of it,but it ultimately could'nt be tamed.And Bimota went bust with the injected VDue smoker they released to the streets.



Phase 1? Phase 2 lighter & more powerful..:eek:

Which begs the question, could an engine (exhaust) management system refine & improve on an expansion chamber? Marvelous!

Maybe with direct injection it's a possability???who knows but aint it grand that someone,and a Kiwi at that is showing the way.What chance a few European manufacturers will be knocking on his door real soon.

[Fast Eddie]

ah nice eel..

well then the wee fellas comment about this being the first fuel injected 2 stroke ever was a little incorrect..

maybe first injected 2 stroke dirt bike? anyway its cool!

the rs250 would be a willing donor to an injection project :) (and a 500cc slot in)

[george formby]

ah nice eel..

well then the wee fellas comment about this being the first fuel injected 2 stroke ever was a little incorrect..

maybe first injected 2 stroke dirt bike? anyway its cool!

the rs250 would be a willing donor to an injection project :) (and a 500cc slot in)

A few years ago Aprilia had a 2t scooter motor that used direct injection, IIR they only produced it as a 50cc but it was very clever from a power & emissions perspective. I fervently hoped it would see the light of day in a bigger capacity but seems to have been shelved. Shame.

[Ocean1]

A few years ago Aprilia had a 2t scooter motor that used direct injection, IIR they only produced it as a 50cc but it was very clever from a power & emissions perspective. I fervently hoped it would see the light of day in a bigger capacity but seems to have been shelved. Shame.

Injected 2Ts have been around for a long time, it's just that for some reason the bike industry has been late picking it up. Ossa's new trials bike has been out for a year or so now, FI engine was noticably crisp and smooth on the one I rode.

[Jay GTI]

I think the "world's first" relates to being a FI 500 MX bike. FI 2 smokes have been around a while as said, in boat motors and snow mobiles etc.

[CRF119]

Injection has been around for a while in 2 stroke MX bikes. All tho that CR500 in the 450 frame has been around for nearly a year since i first saw it and i saw a vid over 6 months ago some where.

Here is a production twin injected two stroke which has also been around as a prototype for a few years. I bet its nice to ride at only 97kg and the weight looks really low.

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2011/11/ossa-250300-i-the-future-of-enduro/

[Jay GTI]

Injection has been around for a while in 2 stroke MX bikes.

Really? I know KTM and a couple of others have been playing with injection, but unless you're talking about home-built specials, can't think of a single production injected 2T.

[Edbear]

Must be a market for this sorta thing? Take in your carbed 2t and get an injection system fitted, i wonder how much of a difference it really makes...


ah nice eel..

well then the wee fellas comment about this being the first fuel injected 2 stroke ever was a little incorrect..

maybe first injected 2 stroke dirt bike? anyway its cool!

the rs250 would be a willing donor to an injection project :) (and a 500cc slot in)

Orbital in Aus has been involved in developing direct inj two strokes for years now mainly used in scooters. Haven't heard much from them for a while.

Get hold of Lincoln at R&R Powersports in Albany for up to date developments.

[dino3310]

would love to see it open up on the Baja or nevada score races:wait:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Really? I know KTM and a couple of others have been playing with injection, but unless you're talking about home-built specials, can't think of a single production injected 2T.

Ossa. Still, I'm all for 500cc mxers going to it. May make me buy another one. Good thread cheers Mark!

[Ocean1]

Ossa.

I see they're about to release their new endoro machine, based on that trials engine.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I see they're about to release their new endoro machine, based on that trials engine.

Yeah very cool!

[Jay GTI]

Ossa. Still, I'm all for 500cc mxers going to it. May make me buy another one. Good thread cheers Mark!


It's an enduro bike and it's not a full production bike either (although very, very close).

[Crasherfromwayback]

It's an enduro bike and it's not a full production bike either (although very, very close).

Hopefully it works well and the Japanese decide they need to jump back in that particular sandpit!

[Ocean1]

Hopefully it works well and the Japanese decide they need to jump back in that particular sandpit!

Speaking of which... http://www.ossamotor.es/EN/models.php?idMoto=339

I didn't know that was in the wind.

74Kg :shit: Even my tired old arse could punt that around.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Speaking of which... http://www.ossamotor.es/EN/models.php?idMoto=339

I didn't know that was in the wind.

74Kg :shit: Even my tired old arse could punt that around.

Fuck that's ugly!

[Boo]

None of the big four will go back to 2t, they make to much money from suckers who buy 4t. I'm not bringing the 2t, 4t thing up for debate or really want to argue the point.
But as it stands, retail bike shops make F all mark up on a new dirt bike, they rely on maintance and parts.
If you were one of the big four would you build a bike that was easy to repair yourself or would need a mechanic to fix. Obviously you would look after your infastructure.
Without it you would have no-one to sell your product, I feel for retailers cause they are the ones stuck in the middle.
The move to 4t was not brought about emissons or any other enviromently friendly bull, it was the bottom line and some clown deciding the future was 4t, I doubt that person ever rode or even owned a dirt bike.
Then came a huge investment in technolgy and with time emissions followed, the money spent would have been huge. Lets take a bike from the last generation before EFI. That bike would be an 07-08 crf450, a nice bike that handled well, made 50-55hp, reliable and overall a good bike. Technology wise really nothing further to do.
Lets take a CR500 , the last up grade was in 93 and stayed the same till production stopped in 2001, it handled ok for a bike built in 93. Power wise it made 55hp at the rear when jetted properly. If you add it up, it took Honda 15 years to produce a motor with the same output, but was still 3kg heavier than a cr500 motor. Granted it takes either a brave soul or a talented rider to pull the trigger on a cr500, but if the money spent on a 4t was invested. the imagination runs wild.
The latest 450 EFI are in there third or fourth generation what ever, power rating are floating around the same mark as the last generation, smoothness have been the comments and at the end of the day its where its at in terms of speed and performance in a race application, suspension is set up to provde that foundation.
Mark has taken the CR500 to the next step with EFI, when you go back to the previous statements about power a 2t walks over a 4t when applied in the right application. EFI has added 15hp to a standard motor, it has a number of applications where power delvivery can be managed. What has a 4t done to justify EFI other than what was stated. To arrive at the same power rating what would you have to do and how much money would it cost to get to 70hp.
I doubt I will never see a CR500 talked about in terms of appliction and rider useabilty as the time for 2t has passed, but there needs to be acknowledgement and reconisation for services provided.We as Kiwi's are known for our pioneering attitutte, I'm proud of that determination and willingness to overcome, we are known for it all over the world.
So don't talk shit about whats happened over there, it is a first and give the man a heads up for a job well done. HEADS UP MATE!!!!!!!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

, but there needs to be acknowledgement and reconisation for services provided.We as Kiwi's are known for our pioneering attitutte, I'm proud of that determination and willingness to overcome, we are known for it all over the world.
So don't talk shit about whats happened over there, it is a first and give the man a heads up for a job well done. HEADS UP MATE!!!!!!!!

I agree. Superb effort, and I for one would love one!

[Jay GTI]

I agree. Superb effort, and I for one would love one!

Reckon there'd be a few of us 4T converts lining up for a FI 2T as well, I would be...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Reckon there'd be a few of us 4T converts lining up for a FI 2T as well, I would be...

I reckon! I recently got my hands (fingers crossed anyway) on a genuine SR Kawasaki. I at first thought it was a 125 as the pics were so bad, but it turned out to be a 250. It may yet be an SR500. If it is...I'm back into the 500 smoker arena minus the injection anyway!

Can't wait.

[Jay GTI]

I reckon! I recently got my hands (fingers crossed anyway) on a genuine SR Kawasaki. I at first thought it was a 125 as the pics were so bad, but it turned out to be a 250. It may yet be an SR500. If it is...I'm back into the 500 smoker arena minus the injection anyway!

Can't wait.


It's funny, this being my first modern 4T I've been looking at the Kato and thinking "please don't blow up, please don't blow up" but ever since I saw a certain 380 smoker donk in a 350 frame I've been thinking "yeah go on, blow up" ha ha...

[flyingcr250]

It's funny, this being my first modern 4T I've been looking at the Kato and thinking "please don't blow up, please don't blow up" but ever since I saw a certain 380 smoker donk in a 350 frame I've been thinking "yeah go on, blow up" ha ha...

I still feel the pain :( :(

[Crasherfromwayback]

It's funny, this being my first modern 4T I've been looking at the Kato and thinking "please don't blow up, please don't blow up" but ever since I saw a certain 380 smoker donk in a 350 frame I've been thinking "yeah go on, blow up" ha ha...

lol. I think Choppa is gonna sell that beast mate. Get hold of him.

[Jay GTI]

I still feel the pain :( :(

Yeah gutted for you, not a nice way for the bike to go. I do think it's an awesome bike, but it's not been without it's issues... just hoping I don't share the fatal one.


lol. I think Choppa is gonna sell that beast mate. Get hold of him.

Nah more than happy enough with the 350, just I have options should it decide it wants to eat cams as well.

[Brian d marge]

unless its transfered to forward motion its wasted , Now if it had tc .........

like sperm , 9999999999999999 of the little buggers just along for the ride but their mate does the biz

As for direct injection , twas at factory in 1993 and had a introduction to direct injection ...from memory it was the speed of the electrics wasnt fast enough . or something like that

But after saying all that ...500 2t that works ...yes please ....and if it makes tuning easier Im all for that !

Stephen

[ktm84mxc]

Great thread would love to see the rebirth of the big bore 2 bangers with DFI and 3 stage ignition control add a slipper clutch Heaven.
Would the Japs build it don't think so , they've invested to heavily in the 4 bangers. A Euro company could build one for sure and they would make an Enduro version as well.
So you getting a SR crasher that would be nice so you'll be mounting it on a pedestal in the lounge and charging admission ?
Thought Honda tried DFI on its CRM 250 back in the late 90's when they were running them in the Paris to Dakar?

[Crasherfromwayback]

So you getting a SR crasher that would be nice so you'll be mounting it on a pedestal in the lounge and charging admission ?


Yeah Mate. But I'm a bit of a sick cunt. I'll more than likely ride the thing at select VMX events I reckon. Not often, but...

[ktm84mxc]

That's the go Crasher be a Russ Burling ride it on parade laps with your selected best mates, have you got your Wardy or Jobe shirt to go with it ?

[Crasherfromwayback]

That's the go Crasher be a Russ Burling ride it on parade laps with your selected best mates, have you got your Wardy or Jobe shirt to go with it ?

lol. Won't be doing any parade laps mate. Mind you...as I get older they probably look that way! As a kid Jeff Ward was THE man...so this era SR/KX is my all time fav. I know of an ex Jobe SR500 for sale if you wanna join in!?

[motor_mayhem]

None of the big four will go back to 2t.....

I'd say that's all true but would also add a few pieces. When they did want to run 4T's the MX governing bodies allowed it, and when the 4T's came to the shop floor people bought them. We as the customer are also partial authors of the 2T demise because we bought the new bikes. And unsurprisingly we could fix it if we wanted to by voting with our wallets. You can see we are a little bit considering the meteoric rise of KTM who are one of the few still heavily involved in 2T. I haven't seen a modern Maico in NZ and I've kept a bit of an eye out. Someone in Nelson area does Ossa's but only the trials one at the moment?

[Boo]

Great thread would love to see the rebirth of the big bore 2 bangers with DFI and 3 stage ignition control add a slipper clutch Heaven.
Would the Japs build it don't think so , they've invested to heavily in the 4 bangers. A Euro company could build one for sure and they would make an Enduro version as well.
So you getting a SR crasher that would be nice so you'll be mounting it on a pedestal in the lounge and charging admission ?
Thought Honda tried DFI on its CRM 250 back in the late 90's when they were running them in the Paris to Dakar

The sliipper is done will fit any cr250 and 500.
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k586/oldie30/IMG_4652.jpg
I think the 500 is limited due to its displacement. I think the cr250 in particular the 96-01 model has alot of promise.
The kart guys have used it for sometime it is reliable and alot of work has been done around research and development.
In a motard application it lacks the legs, have been trying to source some wide ratio gears, that with EFI would be a good goer

[ktm84mxc]

So Crasher you got the white Sinisalo Wardy kit coming to , would love a Jobe SR now where's that M Robert helmet and Team Green kit. Had a Clover set as used by Alec Wrights kawa squad but 27yrs later means long gone.
My 84 KTM 250mxc should be turned into a Kinigadner rep of the model he won the 83 250 champs on , she's a runner hoping to get to Whakatane or Taupo for the VMX.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The sliipper is done will fit any cr250 and 500.
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k586/oldie30/IMG_4652.jpg
I think the 500 is limited due to its displacement. I think the cr250 in particular the 96-01 model has alot of promise.
The kart guys have used it for sometime it is reliable and alot of work has been done around research and development.
In a motard application it lacks the legs, have been trying to source some wide ratio gears, that with EFI would be a good goer

Stop it. Your clutch is giving me a chubby!

[ktm84mxc]

Kawasaki did a huge amount of testing engine displacement for the 500 class of engines ranging in size from 380-500cc 70hp was obtainable from the displacement sizes but ride ability suffered on the smaller engines as they were to peaky and lacked torque. The 420-450 cc range offered the best compromise in this regard over the race duration.
If you could build a 380-420 top end on 250/300 cases with DCI, 3 stage ignition etc the ideal off road bike.
Maico are still made in Holland and they produce models ranging from 400-750cc single cylinder 2 strokes.

[Crasherfromwayback]

So Crasher you got the white Sinisalo Wardy kit coming to , would love a Jobe SR now where's that M Robert helmet and Team Green kit. Had a Clover set as used by Alec Wrights kawa squad but 27yrs later means long gone.
My 84 KTM 250mxc should be turned into a Kinigadner rep of the model he won the 83 250 champs on , she's a runner hoping to get to Whakatane or Taupo for the VMX.

Nah. If I wore white it'd be stained brown in no time! Pants first.

Do it...get it out there and get it dirty!

[Nova.]

Kawasaki did a huge amount of testing engine displacement for the 500 class of engines ranging in size from 380-500cc 70hp was obtainable from the displacement sizes but ride ability suffered on the smaller engines as they were to peaky and lacked torque. The 420-450 cc range offered the best compromise in this regard over the race duration.
If you could build a 380-420 top end on 250/300 cases with DCI, 3 stage ignition etc the ideal off road bike.
Maico are still made in Holland and they produce models ranging from 400-750cc single cylinder 2 strokes.

750 2 stroke wtf thats insane!

[ktm84mxc]

Yep totally barking mad pretty sure those Dutchies use the motors in their MX sidecars you need 90+ hp to tow those rigs around a deep sand track.
The German Maico factory built a 750 air cooled motor on the 440/500 cases to run in the European open Enduro class in the late 70's it competed against BMW twins{PD} and a loony German who grafted KLX forks and swingarm on to a Z 750 Kawa twin . The Maico was tested and ridden by US Dirtbike mag in the Blackwater 100 race.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yep totally barking mad pretty sure those Dutchies use the motors in their MX sidecars you need 90+ hp to tow those rigs around a deep sand track.
.

I remember reading about the factory SR500's as a kid. Apparently the factory told Kent Howerton they could get 80hp out of it for him if he needed it. I dare say he didn't! Doubt it'd last long if they did.

[Boo]

Kawasaki did a huge amount of testing engine displacement for the 500 class of engines ranging in size from 380-500cc 70hp was obtainable from the displacement sizes but ride ability suffered on the smaller engines as they were to peaky and lacked torque. The 420-450 cc range offered the best compromise in this regard over the race duration.
If you could build a 380-420 top end on 250/300 cases with DCI, 3 stage ignition etc the ideal off road bike.
Maico are still made in Holland and they produce models ranging from 400-750cc single cylinder 2 strokes.

Yes , but there were two reasons that happened. One, the ability to port an engine to the required application, in any instance where an increase in hp on a motor is done, a compromise has to be taken into consideration. If you increase hp usally all you are doing is moving it into a power band, by narrowing it you can provide improvements to that situation. ie good top end, very little on the bottom end. A carb passes a measued amount of fuel into the cylinder, it is based on how much you wind the throatle. What revs it is doing or what happens to the fuel once inside the cylinder cannot be changed, other factors are temp and humidty.If an EFI system was to be used and we assume it offers the same adjustments as the 4t then it puts the user in control.
My motor in my 07 was ported to produce a linear power delivery, the exhaust ports were raised to increase revs and produce torque, compression was raised to off set the loss in the bottom end, reliabilty was a major consideration as I still wanted it to be . The work was done by red, the motor had done 15hrs on it and had been ported for a smoother power delivery before. The bike was run after, the motor was good and did exactly what it was suppose to do. All and all a 7% increase in preformance.
But what it did to the handling was amazing, the bike settle well, flex was controlable by throatle response,there was no sudden hit of power which tended to unsettle the bike, Choose a gear to high to low into a corner it didnt matter change up or down before, after or at the apex it didnt matter. Suspenion worked 30% better, overall a 50% incease.
I sum it up as a there needs to be a compromise as the frame is built to handle a linear delivery a 2t needs to find the middle ground to work well mine still has the character its just more civilised now. I love the way its turned out, I don't know if it would be competitive I doudt it would with my lard ass on it, but good gains and alot nicer ride.

[Shorty_925]

As seen in Dirtrider Downunder, now can listen to it as well : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y91Jms6MyCY

[Shorty_925]

Another clip of the bike : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TE5ENcMH1ZI

[Crasherfromwayback]

.

Yes , but there were two reasons that happened. One, the ability to port an engine to the required application, in any instance where an increase in hp on a motor is done, a compromise has to be taken into consideration. If you increase hp usally all you are doing is moving it into a power band, by narrowing it you can provide improvements to that situation. ie good top end, very little on the bottom end. A carb passes a measued amount of fuel into the cylinder, it is based on how much you wind the throatle. What revs it is doing or what happens to the fuel once inside the cylinder cannot be changed, other factors are temp and humidty.If an EFI system was to be used and we assume it offers the same adjustments as the 4t then it puts the user in control.
My motor in my 07 was ported to produce a linear power delivery, the exhaust ports were raised to increase revs and produce torque, compression was raised to off set the loss in the bottom end, reliabilty was a major consideration as I still wanted it to be . The work was done by red, the motor had done 15hrs on it and had been ported for a smoother power delivery before. The bike was run after, the motor was good and did exactly what it was suppose to do. All and all a 7% increase in preformance.
.

Yeah but that's where power valves are great. A KX500 from '06' onwards was KIPS equipped, and in my opinion way nicer to ride than a CR500, which was certainly faster. You can have great low end and top end with power valves. No need to compromise.

[Boo]

I agrree but it still reilies on a valve to make the adjustments in certain circumstances. But still the point is what ever appliction you choose the possibilties are endless.
For the instance where the perfect dirt bike was to be said, it is inself a number of different requirements based on the indiviual, ie what maybe good for one may not be for some one else. A 2t EFI does that, porting changes, ignition compression all variables that with time make a bike that was not considered to be possible.

[yokel]

So how come this new old engine that is almost 30 years old be more powerful, lighter and reliable than the old new engine?? WTF is up with that :bash:

How much longer do we have to put up with this 4 stroke nonsense for?

[scott411]

Yeah but that's where power valves are great. A KX500 from '06' onwards was KIPS equipped, and in my opinion way nicer to ride than a CR500, which was certainly faster. You can have great low end and top end with power valves. No need to compromise.

thats from 86 onwards they had the power valve,

[Stylo]

Good thread and I want one too...... far out :eek5:

Question, why did they use an old, differently ported '85 CR powerplant and not a more recent up to 2001 CR500 motor on that Blue Rooster ?

[Boo]

I don't what your talking about Yokel.
READ A BIT ABOUT HOW A 2T ENGINE WORKS, THE POST IS ABOUT IMPLICATIONS FOR 2T. GO AND JUMP ON ANOTHER TREAD, MAKE SURE READ ALL THE POST BEGfORE YOU MAKE COMMENTS OR OTHERWISE YOU MIGHT MAKE ANOTHER STUPID ONE AGAIN.

[del-solider]

See http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/150782-Power-Junkies-Rejoice ;)

[scott411]

So how come this new old engine that is almost 30 years old be more powerful, lighter and reliable than the old new engine?? WTF is up with that :bash:

How much longer do we have to put up with this 4 stroke nonsense for?

because people never brought them when they were made,

infact so little were sold in NZ they stopped having a racing class for them in the late 80's, aussie and america in the early 90's and the last poeple stopped racing them in europe in the mid 90's, the last person to win the 500 class on a 2 stroke was in 1996, and that was a 360, the minimum allowable cc for that class,

the fact is anything over about 55 horsepower is to much for a mx bike, even the full factory 450's are not made for more power, but more useable power, the world champ doesn't even use a full 450 cause he does not feel he needs it, quite often in both US and European series a little 250F sets the fastest lap times,

I know a couple of people that have over 60hp on their motard 450's, they now do not bother converting them back to dirt bikes anymore as they are no fun on the dirt anymore, and they have a 250 for dirt riding,

I love riding 500's in a straight line, and in a flat straight line, they are faster than a 450 MXer, but round a mx track, they are not,

infact, i think any decent rider will be faster on a stock standard YZ450F would be faster than on this machine on any real life mx track,

(notice they tested the bike at the Pirini ATV track, the perfect place for a 500, open, fast and flat)

[Shorty_925]

See http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/150782-Power-Junkies-Rejoice ;)

Yea I know...was like whole heck gota post this and then saw the other thread..

[Crasherfromwayback]

thats from 86 onwards they had the power valve,

Yep sorry. That's what I meant. I had a KX500B2, loved it. Kicked arse on it everywhere.

[Boo]

I agree with what your saying in the now, they were saying that when the EFI came out on 4t. But still not relavent for this thread, the thread is about EFI for a 2t not the 2t 4t thing

[CRF119]

I know when my CRF450 engine blows up ill be doing a CR500 conversion. For some of us its not about how usable the power is its about being scared to twist the throttle and my 450 just doesn't do that anymore and the cost of rebuilds is to much.

[Boo]

CRF119
Its not like that anymore, with EFI it can be a woods bike, it can be a monster.

[Jay GTI]

So how come this new old engine that is almost 30 years old be more powerful, lighter and reliable than the old new engine?? WTF is up with that :bash:

How much longer do we have to put up with this 4 stroke nonsense for?

Fuck me you're boring.

[Boo]

Price is relavent to use verses how long they sit. If its riden often it will be way cheap and give alot of enjoyment.

[ktm84mxc]

The 1985 Cr500 rf was the most powerful model Honda produced the following years the power was mellowed and made user friendly , you needed to be a good rider or built like a rock ape to ride one.
Kawasaki tamed there KX 500 with the KIPS exhaust power valve system, the first water cooled KX's suffered the same problems.
If you take a look at the Aussi VMX champs in the open classes it's all CR500's with a smatterings of KX's, in the UK you can still buy a new CR500 made up from OEM parts it's pricey but available to order.

[scott411]

The 1985 Cr500 rf was the most powerful model Honda produced the following years the power was mellowed and made user friendly , you needed to be a good rider or built like a rock ape to ride one.
Kawasaki tamed there KX 500 with the KIPS exhaust power valve system, the first water cooled KX's suffered the same problems.
If you take a look at the Aussi VMX champs in the open classes it's all CR500's with a smatterings of KX's, in the UK you can still buy a new CR500 made up from OEM parts it's pricey but available to order.

a good history of the 1st, and last japanese 500cc mxer,

http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=9F4F461E88C04C65858CDD3C382A19F5


the KX500's i raced near the end of thier run i used to tame down as well, thick head gaskets, flywheel weights and jetting a bit fat off the bottom, starts were done in 3rd gear, and if you had room no one would beat you to the first corner, but put on a full gate with good riders the smaller bikes would jump out in front of you and close the gaps, same with short start straights,

Service honda in the States still sells new KX500's and CR500's in late model alloy frames, they are not that cheap but built very well, the owner has said he wants to build FI ones as well, he also puts 250, 200 and 125's 2t's in late model chassis
www.servicehonda.com is worth a drool every now and then,

[ktm84mxc]

Great link to that story on the KX500 there's a good write up on 3 of Kurt Nicols SR500's in VMX mag no 48 the bike yrs are 83,87,89 , interesting to see the move from full on factory build to a production based works model.
Kawasaki won a few NZ titles with Brian Patterson, Graham Allen and Greg Hanson in the 500 class.
MNZ[acu] killed the open class in NZ in 1988 when they changed the classes in the Nationals to Pro 125, Pro250, Exp125, Exp 250 another cock up by the powers that be.

[scott411]

MNZ[acu] killed the open class in NZ in 1988 when they changed the classes in the Nationals to Pro 125, Pro250, Exp125, Exp 250 another cock up by the powers that be.

i disagree, since we got rid of expert 125 and 250 MX has died, i think the 90's were the boom times for NZ MX, massive fields at nationals and big meetings, Tim Gibbes Series that put big fields at the regional meeting,s

since we have gone back to 3 national classes and no b grade classes, National meetings now have less than most club days,

[Crasherfromwayback]

Great link to that story on the KX500 there's a good write up on 3 of Kurt Nicols SR500's in VMX mag no 48 the bike yrs are 83,87,89 , interesting to see the move from full on factory build to a production based works model.
.

Kawasaki moved pretty quickly from full works to production in the 80's. As in, the 85 KX500 was pretty close to the SR500 of 83/84 etc.

[ktm84mxc]

The point was there was no class at a National level to race the 500's , yes the fields were bigger especially when you had the Inter under200, over200 as well in the late 80's to early 90's .

The thrill of seeing a full grid of 500's tearing up a track was a awesome spectacle to witness.

[ktm84mxc]

Lets say Scott we bring back the Inter and Exp classes to the nationals so the events need to be run over 2 days with the possibilities of another 150 riders how many tracks or clubs could handle the numbers involved?
MNZ would love the revenue stream of 150 riders X $150 per round X4 .

[Crasherfromwayback]

a good history of the 1st, and last japanese 500cc mxer,

,

Nice one Scott. I still get misty eyed over them!

[scott411]

Lets say Scott we bring back the Inter and Exp classes to the nationals so the events need to be run over 2 days with the possibilities of another 150 riders how many tracks or clubs could handle the numbers involved?
MNZ would love the revenue stream of 150 riders X $150 per round X4 .

it had been a long time since the 500 class was truely full tho,

i have been argueing for this for years, intermediate is a waist of time at the momnet as you would not fill the expert class, but it should be a goal to have 200 riders at these events, and most clubs have way better facilties than they did in the 90's, when we used to do it,

and i think 3 2 day rounds, with 5 races a weekend each class, (one in teh south, 2 in the north on back to back weekends) is a good series, and will be cheaper and easier for more riders to get to,

MNZ do not get any revenue stream from the nationals anymore, (except for the permits) as the clubs take the entries fee now,

but dont let the facts get in the way of MNZ bashing, (there is plenty of ammo anyway, you do not need to make stuff up

[ktm84mxc]

I wasn't MNZ bashing just didn't know when the changes came into place, so do the clubs keep the sign on fees except for the permit levies and do the host clubs still need to find their own sponsors to help with the event costs.
Do you see a return of the Nth/Sth Island champs that was formerly known as the Gold Star series in the near future?

[scott411]

I wasn't MNZ bashing just didn't know when the changes came into place, so do the clubs keep the sign on fees except for the permit levies and do the host clubs still need to find their own sponsors to help with the event costs.
Do you see a return of the Nth/Sth Island champs that was formerly known as the Gold Star series in the near future?

yes and yes, only changed last year, so fair enough, so now you can pay the bills and if it rains and no one turns up to watch you are not left in a big hole,

i hope so, i have talked to a few clubs about maybe doing a series before xmas in teh NI, but now needing to have a national liceince to race them it will put people out from racing them if it does come back,

before xmas this year there is Labour Weekend, Valley CHamps (I think) Auckalnd Champs, Waikato CHamps and a Taranaki Champs as well,

[Crasherfromwayback]

, Valley CHamps (I think) Auckalnd Champs, Waikato CHamps and a Taranaki Champs as well,

Years ago when the Wellington Motocross Champs was big, pretty sure I gave Shane King his first taste of 500's. I gave him my then brand new 89 to ride in the last race of the day.

[Boo]

The 1985 Cr500 rf was the most powerful model Honda produced the following years the power was mellowed and made user friendly , you needed to be a good rider or built like a rock ape to ride one.
Kawasaki tamed there KX 500 with the KIPS exhaust power valve system, the first water cooled KX's suffered the same problems.
If you take a look at the Aussi VMX champs in the open classes it's all CR500's with a smatterings of KX's, in the UK you can still buy a new CR500 made up from OEM parts it's pricey but available to order.

Yes the 85-88 were the most powerful, due to the cylinder and head design, all used the close ratio gear box accept the 87. They dont make the cases or water pump housing for them any more and are reconised by the high pipe.
KX500 are nickilsil coated bore, you nip one of those up and its along down time and expensive. I had a mechanic show me the differences between the connecting rods from a cr and kx at the end where the piston connects. The kx is alot smaller diameter at that point he seemed to think that was an issue with them.
I brought a new engine out of the states for 5k all oem, thats cheap when you think how much it cost to build aftera major on anything else.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. I had a mechanic show me the differences between the connecting rods from a cr and kx at the end where the piston connects. The kx is alot smaller diameter at that point he seemed to think that was an issue with them.
.

I dunno about that. I road raced them for years (which tends to be harder on them than moto-x) and never had an engine failure.

[Boo]

Racing has gone out the window and only the commited and select few can now. Gone are the days of change a set of rings after a race meet, piston every start of the session. And its killed the sport, 250 have suffered, all are out of reach for a normal person.But the sad thing is todays riders, parents don't realise how it was, they accept the cost.
Granted it is for the love of the sport but FUCK!!!.
Then they buy a new bike, 3/4's of would probably go just as fast, have more ride time and enjoy riding on an old 2t. They listen to the bull and believe it, then when they get to 50hrs, try to sell them before the next major service, they can't even get half the value back. Then there are the ones that blow them up and it's not worth fixing, I like those ones a good supply of rolling frames lol.
A return to 2t I think will be the older riders who are not looking for the bling they just want to ride at a reasonable cost, and at the end of the day isn't thats what its all about, riding.

[Crasherfromwayback]

, and at the end of the day isn't thats what its all about, riding.

Very true.

[Boo]

I dunno about that. I road raced them for years (which tends to be harder on them than moto-x) and never had an engine failure.

Fair enough comment if you did that much racing you should know.
You know the funny thing is when this subject comes up, it reminds me of the saying, when men were men and boys were gay lol
Watched a old motard race with chandler and magoo, they had a dirt section and it was long and wide. These guys were doing 70plus mph, sideways, you watch the lastest stuff and its boring in comparison.

[eelracing]

The 1985 Cr500 rf was the most powerful model Honda produced the following years the power was mellowed and made user friendly , you needed to be a good rider or built like a rock ape to ride one.

I think my mate Mike would take exception to being called a rockape...so he must be a good rider.

Oh yeah,no EFI here...85 CR500 doing what it does best

[Boo]

Yep on the outside, front wheel pointing in the direction you want to go, throatle wide open. Nice pic

[Crasherfromwayback]

Awesome pic that!

[eelracing]

Awesome pic that!

Don't tell him I told you,but he has to stand on a beer crate to kick the bitch over.:gob:(he aint no rockape)

[ktm84mxc]

A Rock Ape by looks is a large man with a hardened tough exterior a farming fencing contractor would be a classic example, the type who can take a 500 and beat it into submission.
Keith Peters could make the Cr500 fly and he was a light weight, Malcolm Moore and Barry Mclachlan more your type Rock Ape .

[Crasherfromwayback]

A Rock Ape by looks is a large man with a hardened tough exterior a farming fencing contractor would be a classic example, the type who can take a 500 and beat it into submission.
Keith Peters could make the Cr500 fly and he was a light weight, Malcolm Moore and Barry Mclachlan more your type Rock Ape .

Craig Wilkie was only a lil jockey and was fast as fuck on a CR500.

[motor_mayhem]

Racing has gone out the window and only the commited and select few can now. Gone are the days of change a set of rings after a race meet, piston every start of the session. And its killed the sport, 250 have suffered, all are out of reach for a normal person.But the sad thing is todays riders, parents don't realise how it was, they accept the cost.
Granted it is for the love of the sport but FUCK!!!.
Then they buy a new bike, 3/4's of would probably go just as fast, have more ride time and enjoy riding on an old 2t. They listen to the bull and believe it, then when they get to 50hrs, try to sell them before the next major service, they can't even get half the value back. Then there are the ones that blow them up and it's not worth fixing, I like those ones a good supply of rolling frames lol.
A return to 2t I think will be the older riders who are not looking for the bling they just want to ride at a reasonable cost, and at the end of the day isn't thats what its all about, riding.

To be honest I don't buy that yarn for a second. Showing up at club day and having the right gear and a wee bit of practice takes minimum commitment, it's just that in this age of easy options that's still asking too much of some people. If you had to change the rings and piston for each race meet on your old 2T's then you're having to do more maintenance than I have to do for my 450 - probably because I say it spends most of it's time at 1/3 - 1/2 of it's maximum capable revs. If you want to see how the old 2T's compare to modern bikes just take a look at the vid I posted recently at a club day when the vmx guys showed up - I'm not particularly good rider but the modern suspension and frame geometry puts me light years ahead and doesn't tire me out half as much so allows me more ride time.

[Stylo]

This is an interesting thread and I'm enjoying reading it.

I'm lucky to still have a CR500 last model '01 and an '04 Kawasaki KX5 , what's interesting is when I picked up the KX new from the shop I also got a box witrh some factory spares including - New Piston, rings,full gasket set, gudgeon pin, O rings, silencer packing, a bag full of different size jets, spare levers and a race Log book ( along with the handbook, of course ) . All free and Part of the service, thanks for your custom and call again. Don't know what that'd be worth over the counter but I hate to think. 10 points and still got the bike and the box.

The KX5 I bought new in '97 had the same box of goodys

What do you get when you buy a new 4T ?

With the new CR in '01 - Owners manual only and ..see you later, thanks Honda.

CR500 new in '01 $11K

KX500 new in '04 $10,750

The Nikasil coating on the cylinder has'nt has'nt been an issue on the KX500 for me either, my '97 had done 150hrs + and when I took the barrel off to freshen it up with a new ( free) piston , I took the barrel in to have it checked over and - no charge, "it's still like new" from the manager.

Guess that's down to how you look after and maintain your bikes as much as anything ...

My 10cents + recent pic




265604

[Crasherfromwayback]

My 10cents + recent pic






Go and get 'em dirty you mongrel!

[CHOPPA]

I'm not particularly good rider but the modern suspension and frame geometry puts me light years ahead and doesn't tire me out half as much so allows me more ride time.

The great thing about MX is that the rider component is 90% of the package. There would be some guys that could run up front of most club events on 20 year old bikes.

VMX guys are mostly a bit different. It seems its more about the enjoyment and the bikes so its no wonder they get left behind at a club day.

There is no denying though that it doesnt matter who you are you will go quicker on a modern bike than an old smoker.

[CHOPPA]

Looking to update the 6 year old V-force reed kit, anyone know if there's a later version available ?

Fuel injection apparently! haha

[CHOPPA]

How about you let me see how those 500s of your go at the TT champs Stylo???

[Boo]

Bore your 39mm PWK out to 41.5mm on your KX it will handle it with the power valves.
Buy a 39.5 PWK for the CR.
Look for a FMF fatty pipe which are very rare and ain't made any more, but do appear on e bay once in a while. The pro is ok though
Shave your head down to 63mm which is what the cool heads are.
Get a mo better port job,go back to standard reeds.
Get an oversized discs on the front or better pads and your sweet to go.
It will be good for 61 at the crank if jetted properly.
I can put you onto someone who can get you 68 at the crank, it'll be a monster.

[Boo]

How about you let me see how those 500s of your go at the TT champs Stylo???


I seen you jump a bike choppa, fuck its a wander you don't wear an astronausts suit.
I would never let you ride my bike, I would always be the bitch who's riding the bike Sloan Frost rode. Fark that.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Great link to that story on the KX500 there's a good write up on 3 of Kurt Nicols SR500's in VMX mag no 48 the bike yrs are 83,87,89 , interesting to see the move from full on factory build to a production based works model.
.

Looks like the SR I have coming is in actual fact an SR500. Supposedly Kent Howertons race bike. God knows how it ended up wth an SR250 engine in it, but I can only hope the spare engine that's coming with it is the original SR500 donk. He she be getting loaed up for me! Can't wait to get it here and get it dirty!265650

[george formby]

Looks like the SR I have coming is in actual fact an SR500. Supposedly Kent Howertons race bike. God knows how it ended up wth an SR250 engine in it, but I can only hope the spare engine that's coming with it is the original SR500 donk. He she be getting loaed up for me! Can't wait to get it here and get it dirty!265650

Your mad.:wacko:

[Stylo]

How about you let me see how those 500s of your go at the TT champs Stylo???

No worries Choppa, give me your address and I'll send them both up on a truck , let me know when you need them . :-)

[CHOPPA]

No worries Choppa, give me your address and I'll send them both up on a truck , let me know when you need them . :-)

Na mate thats not how I roll, ill email you a list of things I need done to the bike so you can have the mechanics get it ready. Ill send you my entry forms. If you can flick me some order numbers for the tyres etc in the meantime and ill see you at the track ;)

[CHOPPA]

Looks like the SR I have coming is in actual fact an SR500. Supposedly Kent Howertons race bike. God knows how it ended up wth an SR250 engine in it, but I can only hope the spare engine that's coming with it is the original SR500 donk. He she be getting loaed up for me! Can't wait to get it here and get it dirty!265650

That will be worth some serious $$ when you get it back to original mate!

[Boo]

Na mate thats not how I roll, ill email you a list of things I need done to the bike so you can have the mechanics get it ready. Ill send you my entry forms. If you can flick me some order numbers for the tyres etc in the meantime and ill see you at the track .


WOW!!!!!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

That will be worth some serious $$ when you get it back to original mate!

That'd be nice! I'll flick off one of the SR250 engines to help with the rebuild. That should be worth quite good coin too I reckon.