848s in Supersport? A submission from Joe (Very) Average

[slowpoke]

In the interests of promoting discussion here's a copy of my submission to the MNZ Road race Commission:


Re: Remit to allow 850cc twins into the Supersport class‏

Hi all,

I'd just like to take this opportunity to express my further support for the above proposal.

As the recent purchaser of a 2005 Ducati 749R race bike (the last reasonably competitive 750cc twin) it's been a splash in the face with cold hard reality of how far off current pace these bikes are. Power (for 2005) is not bad...but the weight, lordy lordy too mucha pasta! And I have no doubt the maintenance costs will be similarly impressive. But would I trade it for a 600? Hell no. Would I trade it for a much cheaper to maintain and more competitive 848 with it's plentiful supply of parts? Now there's a different proposition.....and while I'm (apparently) far from normal there are undoubtedly other people who feel like I do and would put them on the grid.

Or as spectators, would be excited to see them on the grid.

Or the Motomart/Haldane/Bayride/Casbolts type dealers and s/h (KTL, Emoto, Ducati Spares etc) motorcycle/parts importers who would be encouraged to support something a lil' different on the grid.

I recently followed the 2012 NZSBK circus around the South Island competing in the supporting Clubman's class on a fairly decent superbike. My times would have qualified me for the championship class but the yawning chasm between my "just fast enough" laptimes and the next "very fast" guys, let alone "world class fast" Robbie, Stroudy, Choppa and co is sufficient deterrent to prevent an entry. But I learnt heaps, experienced new tracks, met some great people and with the early release (thank you!) of the 2013 program and a friendly work roster I'm already planning to repeat the Clubman's exercise.

My point? As a late starting part timer (work committments) I wouldn't consider entering the Superbike championship class. On the face of it a 600 makes good sense but after racing a Ray Clee built GSXR1000 a GSXR600 seems far too much like something exactly the same only minus 50hp hence it holds virtually no appeal. The 749R is completely different and a comparative breathe of fresh air but is well past it's use by date to consider entering Supersport, no matter how much fun it is to ride. But had I known 848's were allowed there'd almost certainly be a different bike in the shed and I'd be very seriously considering an entry in Supersport with it's greater variation of talent compared to Superbike. I doubt I'd be alone, as either a new entrant or in piloting an 848. Not because it has any performance advantage but because many of us tend to race the bikes we like rather than the bikes we should. Some can and do shake their heads at this but if you aren't planning on making a living out of it you're only there for one reason: because you enjoy it. Racing the bikes we like makes it more enjoyable, simple as that.

If world class Jake Zemke can't dominate against Supersport bikes in the the American DSB class surely any claims of performance advantage are null and void. He is the most highly credentialled rider in the field, has healthy backing, yet when I last saw was in 6th place in the standings, a long way back from Cardenas on a GSXR600.

Ultimately the question becomes do we want to progress the championship and expand not just the field, but the manufacturers, suppliers and supporters involved in the sport? I hope the answer is "Yes".

Please note, I have deliberately tried to steer away from facts and figures in this correspondence. They speak for themselves as I briefly mentioned in my Zemke comments, and I'm sure they have been scrutinised in depth by far more analytical minds than mine. Instead I have tried to express what would appeal to me as a (very) average racer and make me want to increase my participation. Allowing 848's into Supersport does exactly that.

Regards
Spud (Bruce) McKenzie
MNZ licence 20185


For KB readers: please note I knew going into the 749R that it was not up to the minute competitive, it was never my intention to race it at National level, the purchase was done simply for the love of the bike and in an effort to get a few more laps racing than I could get on a Jap Superbike. The point I'm trying to make is that given an interesting alternative my choice would probably be different and the grid at National level would be bolstered. From conversations with other people I'm not alone in being interested in racing an 848 in a class that we would otherwise have no interest in joining.

[Biggles08]

.... don't quote the entire farken thingy Morris .....

Good on ya for submitting an opinion regardless of whether it's on the money or not...it is an opinion.

Personally I say bring them on (848's)! I think it would be awesome having a different tone circulating around the track.

[Dreama]

Yeah, well said Spud. There will of course be the anti brigade, but let's hope the 'directors' see beyond them and look at ways of encouraging more guys onto the grids.
In the end it's a pretty simple formula really ie more riders = more spectators = more money = more racing etc

[Tony.OK]

From the spectator side of the fence I can't wait to see/hear them ripping round the track. And as said before how can more bums on bikes be a bad thing?

Spud ya better start sweet talking as to why the landscaping has been put on hold, surely theres room in that huge trailer for one more skinny vee twin?

[jellywrestler]

I think it would be awesome having a different tone circulating around the track. There already is Wiggles, your bike circulating at 11000 RPM when everyone else is running at redline!

[Biggles08]

There already is Wiggles, your bike circulating at 11000 RPM when everyone else is running at redline!
And they still can't catch me?! go figure :bleh:

[tigertim20]

In the interests of promoting discussion here's a copy of my submission to the MNZ Road race Commission:


Re: Remit to allow 850cc twins into the Supersport class‏

Hi all,

I'd just like to take this opportunity to express my further support for the above proposal.

As the recent purchaser of a 2005 Ducati 749R race bike (the last reasonably competitive 750cc twin) it's been a splash in the face with cold hard reality of how far off current pace these bikes are. Power (for 2005) is not bad...but the weight, lordy lordy too mucha pasta! And I have no doubt the maintenance costs will be similarly impressive. But would I trade it for a 600? Hell no. Would I trade it for a much cheaper to maintain and more competitive 848 with it's plentiful supply of parts? Now there's a different proposition.....and while I'm (apparently) far from normal there are undoubtedly other people who feel like I do and would put them on the grid.

Or as spectators, would be excited to see them on the grid.

Or the Motomart/Haldane/Bayride/Casbolts type dealers and s/h (KTL, Emoto, Ducati Spares etc) motorcycle/parts importers who would be encouraged to support something a lil' different on the grid.

I recently followed the 2012 NZSBK circus around the South Island competing in the supporting Clubman's class on a fairly decent superbike. My times would have qualified me for the championship class but the yawning chasm between my "just fast enough" laptimes and the next "very fast" guys, let alone "world class fast" Robbie, Stroudy, Choppa and co is sufficient deterrent to prevent an entry. But I learnt heaps, experienced new tracks, met some great people and with the early release (thank you!) of the 2013 program and a friendly work roster I'm already planning to repeat the Clubman's exercise.

My point? As a late starting part timer (work committments) I wouldn't consider entering the Superbike championship class. On the face of it a 600 makes good sense but after racing a Ray Clee built GSXR1000 a GSXR600 seems far too much like something exactly the same only minus 50hp hence it holds virtually no appeal. The 749R is completely different and a comparative breathe of fresh air but is well past it's use by date to consider entering Supersport, no matter how much fun it is to ride. But had I known 848's were allowed there'd almost certainly be a different bike in the shed and I'd be very seriously considering an entry in Supersport with it's greater variation of talent compared to Superbike. I doubt I'd be alone, as either a new entrant or in piloting an 848. Not because it has any performance advantage but because many of us tend to race the bikes we like rather than the bikes we should. Some can and do shake their heads at this but if you aren't planning on making a living out of it you're only there for one reason: because you enjoy it. Racing the bikes we like makes it more enjoyable, simple as that.

If world class Jake Zemke can't dominate against Supersport bikes in the the American DSB class surely any claims of performance advantage are null and void. He is the most highly credentialled rider in the field, has healthy backing, yet when I last saw was in 6th place in the standings, a long way back from Cardenas on a GSXR600.

Ultimately the question becomes do we want to progress the championship and expand not just the field, but the manufacturers, suppliers and supporters involved in the sport? I hope the answer is "Yes".

Please note, I have deliberately tried to steer away from facts and figures in this correspondence. They speak for themselves as I briefly mentioned in my Zemke comments, and I'm sure they have been scrutinised in depth by far more analytical minds than mine. Instead I have tried to express what would appeal to me as a (very) average racer and make me want to increase my participation. Allowing 848's into Supersport does exactly that.

Regards
Spud (Bruce) McKenzie
MNZ licence 20185


For KB readers: please note I knew going into the 749R that it was not up to the minute competitive, it was never my intention to race it at National level, the purchase was done simply for the love of the bike and in an effort to get a few more laps racing than I could get on a Jap Superbike. The point I'm trying to make is that given an interesting alternative my choice would probably be different and the grid at National level would be bolstered. From conversations with other people I'm not alone in being interested in racing an 848 in a class that we would otherwise have no interest in joining.

if the underlined is the case, theres no reason why you cant buy one and race it in bears.

I am obviously on the anti brigade, but (my opinion only) while your letter is quite a passionately worded one that Im sure many will read and understand perfectly, the crux of your argument is 'because I want to'. The argument about more bums on seats, and more entries etc doesnt, as far as Im aware, have any factual basis - its only an opinion.

Im not against changes to rules etc, but if you guys really want to push for it, wouldnt it help your cause to actually have names, numbers, figures and facts, that PROVE it would be the right decision to let them enter? making a change just to suit one or two, or maybe three people is in my opinion, a bad idea, and sets a dangerous precedent that anyone can get the rules bent if they petition/whinge/request or whatever.

Does anyone have any confirmed figures on how many people have $xxxx set aside and are poised to buy up an 848 if it gets the go ahead? have any of these shops confirmed that the addition would draw financial, or other support from them for the series?

[CHOPPA]

I think its great. I would seriously consider it.

You cant prove who will race one but common sense says they will. It will also draw sponsorship money for the series out of Ducati as it has with BMW since the S1000RR came out.

With the Panigale set for release it would be great to be able to run a Supersport/Superbike team 848/1199.

There is no BEARS class as a national series

Supersport is supersport it is not the 600cc class. It is for middle weight sport bikes and that is where the 848 fits.

I dont know why MNZ cant just set up a vote system like they did with the president election. Any proposed rule changes could just come to a vote from people that actual have race licences and understand. Maybe even limit it to the competitors that race that class in the nationals the year before.

This doesnt effect the club day riders etc its only the people that race the nationals

[CHOPPA]

If you think its a good idea and have strong reasons why it should or shouldnt be changed let your voice be heard.... mnzrrc@gmail.com

[Kevin G]

I think its great. I would seriously consider it.

You cant prove who will race one but common sense says they will. It will also draw sponsorship money for the series out of Ducati as it has with BMW since the S1000RR came out.

With the Panigale set for release it would be great to be able to run a Supersport/Superbike team 848/1199.

There is no BEARS class as a national series

Supersport is supersport it is not the 600cc class. It is for middle weight sport bikes and that is where the 848 fits.

I dont know why MNZ cant just set up a vote system like they did with the president election. Any proposed rule changes could just come to a vote from people that actual have race licences and understand. Maybe even limit it to the competitors that race that class in the nationals the year before.

This doesnt effect the club day riders etc its only the people that race the nationals

Given the complete apathy that the licence holders show when it comes time to vote for President or the Board why would they vote for a rule change...

[jellywrestler]

I am obviously on the anti brigade,

anyone can get the rules bent if they petition/whinge/request or whatever.

have any of these shops confirmed that the addition would draw financial, or other support from them for the series?

Strong word 'rules bent'it's not getting the rules bent, if the rules weren't changed as bikes evolved we'd all still have 250 350 and 500 single cylinder pom bombs.

Anyone who hasn't go there head up their own Anus, or somebody else's will see that the Italian fans are passionate and I'm sure a few would be lured to the track to support someone on a spaghetti bike.
You only need to look at all the mobility scooters at the tracks now that the BMW's are actually racing...

[scracha]

IRegards
Spud (Bruce) McKenzie
MNZ licence 20185 [/I]



Dear Spud,

You can race an overpriced 848 Spaghetti bike at the back of F2. However, please be aware that if these devious eyeTies bring out a superdooper sub 850cc twin and they start pissing all over Japan's 599cc finest, then they can fark off back into Bears, Clubmans or join the big boys and race em in F1.

regards

Scracha

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?
pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?
ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's
pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

[lukemillar]

pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

I see I'm not the only one thinking that! Sorry Spud

[CHOPPA]

Given the complete apathy that the licence holders show when it comes time to vote for President or the Board why would they vote for a rule change...

People that care, vote. People that dont care, dont vote.

Secondly its a lot closer to home when the rules get changed for the class you race in. Most people obviously couldnt give a shit who is on the Board or who is the President. (i voted)

[Kickaha]

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?
pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?
ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's
pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

Put a remit in to change the rules to suit and see how far you get with it

[Tony.OK]

Dear Spud,

You can race an overpriced 848 Spaghetti bike at the back of F2. However, please be aware that if these devious eyeTies bring out a superdooper sub 850cc twin and they start pissing all over Japan's 599cc finest, then they can fark off back into Bears, Clubmans or join the big boys and race em in F1.

regards

Scracha

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?
pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?
ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's
pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?
There's nothing to stop you from submitting a remit to MNZ for any of the bikes you'd like to enter Stevie.

749 yuk?....................haha did you not look at that frankencane you rode (sorry paul)

[Tony.OK]

With the Panigale set for release it would be great to be able to run a Supersport/Superbike team 848/1199.



Do etttt!!

I'd pay gate price just to come have a squiz in the pits mate :msn-wink:

[SWERVE]

There already is Wiggles, your bike circulating at 11000 RPM when everyone else is running at redline!

PRICELESS..................... :sleep: Marcus you do line yourself up for such posts:clap:

[CHOPPA]

Do etttt!!

I'd pay gate price just to come have a squiz in the pits mate :msn-wink:

If the 1199 was available last month it could well have ended up in our pits

[Biggles08]

PRICELESS..................... :sleep: Marcus you do line yourself up for such posts:clap:

I'm here to please!

But seriously, why not have 848's race in Supersport class...who really thinks they have an advantage? Hell I might race one for shits and giggles cause Ducati may be pretty keen to get some of these on the grid and actually invest in road racing unlike some of the other brands currently! The more involed in racing the better for all involved in my very un humble opinion!

[slowpoke]

if the underlined is the case, theres no reason why you cant buy one and race it in bears.

Yep, I could well have simply bought an 848 and raced it in BEAR's, I even considered it. But as BEAR's and club racing were the only avenues I followed my heart and went for something I feel is even sexier (hey, it's my wet dream, not yours) and is a bit more "timeless" in the form of an R model (the 749R is even more race ready than the 999R due to limited WSS reg's) and which would allow me to race the most classes possible (F1/F2/BEAR's/Open Twins) at club and street meets. I could sit in the shed for ages just looking at it in the nuddies (the bike, not me) and soaking in the details, I farkin' love it. But, given the opportunity to get the same racing opportunities and participate at National events an 848 would be a no-brainer and the National Supersport category would have another entrant, (albeit at the back) which sounds like a win-win situation to me.

I am obviously on the anti brigade, but (my opinion only) while your letter is quite a passionately worded one that Im sure many will read and understand perfectly, the crux of your argument is 'because I want to'. The argument about more bums on seats, and more entries etc doesnt, as far as Im aware, have any factual basis - its only an opinion.

The original submission was made by 4 racers (1 a multi NZ champion) committed to racing 848's if given the opportunity, and given prior knowledge I'd be a 5th. That's a pretty healthy number given there's been very little exposure or promotion of the idea to the general racing community.

"Because I want to"? Isn't that why anyone does anything? But really this isn't actually about me, it's about improving the class/sport. With the new bike I'm a happy chappy whatever happens, and looking forward to the NZSBK circuit next season and racing in a support class while enjoying watching the main events. The point is that if I'd had an interesting Supersport legal alternative the Supersport grid would be bigger and there are at least 4 other people who feel the same way, all helping to put on a better show. (Ok point taken, not so much me, but the others would definitely be making a positive impact). Hell, even if only 2 extra bikes make onto the NZSBK Supersport grid that's still nothing to be sneezed at in the current economic climate. Thats a couple of thousand dollars in extra entry fees alone, and many thousands in tyres, parts, gear, services etc all flowing around the motorcycling community....just as a result of 2 extra bikes on the grid. I honestly can't see a down side, so it doesn't compute to see an opportunity for improvement that has so many flow on benefits and not take advantage of it.

Im not against changes to rules etc, but if you guys really want to push for it, wouldnt it help your cause to actually have names, numbers, figures and facts, that PROVE it would be the right decision to let them enter? making a change just to suit one or two, or maybe three people is in my opinion, a bad idea, and sets a dangerous precedent that anyone can get the rules bent if they petition/whinge/request or whatever.

As above re the names and numbers. The "right decision"? The performance difference between the 600/675's and 848's is negligible, as proven in the AMA by Jake Zemke (in Daytona Sports Bike) and Larry Pegram (Formula Extreme). The 848 ridden by highly credentialled and experienced riders in both different classes/specifications, was simply competitive, no more no less. This is fact, not opinion, so any perceived performance advantage simply does not exist.

Does anyone have any confirmed figures on how many people have $xxxx set aside and are poised to buy up an 848 if it gets the go ahead? have any of these shops confirmed that the addition would draw financial, or other support from them for the series?

As above re numbers/$$$. One of the proponents of the original submission has taken the intiative of approaching the CEO of Ducati NZ who has expressed his willingness to help with matters relating to homologation etc. So a previously uninvolved manufacturer is waiting for the opportunity to become involved.


Thanks Tim, there are some good questions in there and you've probably communicated what many racers are thinking.

I don't think I'm stretching the truth when I say that seeing 848's on track would generate more interest from both racers and spectators alike as comments on this thread have already shown. Dennis, Sketchy, Jadan, John Ross and co (that means you Biggles) put on a great show on very similar screaming 600's, but throwing a booming twin into the mix that does similar lap times in a different way undeniably adds something and extends the appeal of the class/sport to a new demographic of both racers and spectators. The feedback from potential racers and spectators has thus far been overwhelmingly positive and even when I step under the "cone of impartiality" I'm struggling to see any downside to this intiative.

The nitty gritty facts and figures have been presented/discussed in previous MNZ submissions, by far more knowledgeable people than me. The following is a rundown of perceived issues and responses (in brackets) by those big-brain type people:

1) The cost of the bike would be to high to build (incorrect – as in fact the bike requires only a limited amount of parts to make it “track ready” - info from respected/experienced Ducati tuner Dave Cole)

2) The distributors wouldn’t be happy (I am not sure why distributers have a say in MNZ member matters, other than reasons of common courtesy of course)

3) The bike has “too much horsepower” (incorrect, tuning houses that can attain 140rwhp out of the Ducati 848 also attain 145hp out of 600cc 4 cylinder machines, Numerous local and overseas independent dyno houses comment that the 848 Ducati is on average 119 – 124hp at the rear wheel)

4) The bike is too light (incorrect – the Ducati 848 wet weight with fuel is within 2kg of the lightest wet weight four cylinder machines, in other words it is very close, however a stipulation on weight limit could easily be included on a trial basis ?)



From the spectator side of the fence I can't wait to see/hear them ripping round the track. And as said before how can more bums on bikes be a bad thing?

Spud ya better start sweet talking as to why the landscaping has been put on hold, surely theres room in that huge trailer for one more skinny vee twin?

Yeah agreed mate. Even without being a Ducati fan, the sheer point of difference would have had me scanning the time sheets/websites etc with extra anticipation come the 2013 season to see how they went.

You bastard, you had to bring up the digging dintcha? FUCK I DIGGING! (might have something to do with working for Newcrest Mining and 3 of us hand digging a 30m cable trench one nightshift only to be told the next morning our maintenance jobs were being "out sourced"........CARNTS!)

And there's no room in the trailer, I'm pretty much living there after buying the 749 :spanking:

[slowpoke]

Dear Spud,

You can race an overpriced 848 Spaghetti bike at the back of F2. However, please be aware that if these devious eyeTies bring out a superdooper sub 850cc twin and they start pissing all over Japan's 599cc finest, then they can fark off back into Bears, Clubmans or join the big boys and race em in F1.

Furry muff

regards

Scracha

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?

No argument from me, they're slower than current race rep's.

pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?

Haha, if anybody can qualify on a TRX850 or any form of F800 they definitely deserve to be there!

ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's

Hell yeah, I'd pay big dollars to see a field of V-Max's racing, it'd be like 2 wheeled truck racing!

pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

Awwww, here's me thinking you were a cultured European gentleman with sublime taste. I'm crushed, it's like finding out the Master Chef judges can't wait for Macca's after the show.

[sinfull]

Do etttt!!

I'd pay gate price just to come have a squiz in the pits mate :msn-wink:
I second this and know of prolly a dozen others, who would come to a race meet to ganda at a line up of bears bikes and where seeing some quality racing would just be the bonus !

[CHOPPA]

If it was allowed for supersport wonder if it would be ok for superstock?

[slowpoke]

This weekend the AMA guys were racing at Barber, Alabama (YEEHAAAW!). Qualifying and results give a pretty good indication of how the 848 is travelling in Daytona Sportbike:

Note, the DSB rules are fairly similar to our Supersport rules, with engine mods even more restrictive in DSB, but suspension and steering are a bit more open (aftermarket rear linkage allowed, aftermarket triples and head angle adjustment allowed).

Qualifying for DMG Daytona Sportsbike at Barber
1 Cameron Beaubier Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6 1:27.685
2 Jason DiSalvo Team Latus Motors Racing Triumph Daytona 675 1:27.709
3 Dane Westby M4 Broaster Chicken Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600 1:28.113
4 Tommy Hayden Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6 1:28.193
5 Martin Cardenas Geico Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600 1:28.504
6 Bobby Fong Meen Motorsports Racing Yamaha YZF-R6 1:28.522
7 Jake Gagne Road Race Factory/Red Bull Yamaha YZF-R6 1:28.988
8 Paul Allison Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.029
9 Jake Zemke Ducshop Racing Ducati 848 1:29.164
10 Joey Pascarella Vesrah Suzuki GSX-R600 1:29.352
11 Austin Dehaven Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.594
12 Huntley Nash LTD Racing Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.605
13 JD Beach Road Race Factory/Red Bull Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.641
14 Kris Turner Turner's Cycle Racing Triumph Daytona 675 1:29.686
15 Cory West Riders Discount Vesrah Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600 1:29.787

Qualifying Results of Race 1 DMG Daytona Sportsbike at Barber

1 Cameron Beaubier Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6
2 Dane Westby M4 Broaster Chicken Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600
3 Tommy Hayden Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6
4 Jason DiSalvo Team Latus Motors Racing Triumph Daytona 675
5 Martin Cardenas Geico Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600
6 Bobby Fong Meen Motorsports Racing Yamaha YZF-R6
7 Benny Solis Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6
8 Jake Zemke Ducshop Racing Ducati 848
9 JD Beach Road Race Factory/Red Bull Yamaha YZF-R6
10 Mike Beck Yamaha YZF-R6
11 Cory West Riders Discount Vesrah Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600
12 Huntley Nash LTD Racing Yamaha YZF-R6
13 Joey Pascarella Vesrah Suzuki GSX-R600
14 Austin Dehaven Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6
15 Fernando Amantini Team Amantini Kawasaki ZX-6R
16 Bryce Prince Rotobox/Nexx Yamaha YZF-R6

For those who don't follow AMA racing, Zemke (amongst many other achievments) was a factory Honda Superbike rider and one of the few capable of challenging Mladin and Spies. He's no mug.

[discodan]

3) The bike has “too much horsepower” (incorrect, tuning houses that can attain 140rwhp out of the Ducati 848 also attain 145hp out of 600cc 4 cylinder machines, Numerous local and overseas independent dyno houses comment that the 848 Ducati is on average 119 – 124hp at the rear wheel)

4) The bike is too light (incorrect – the Ducati 848 wet weight with fuel is within 2kg of the lightest wet weight four cylinder machines, in other words it is very close, however a stipulation on weight limit could easily be included on a trial basis ?)


I haven't done enough research to know all the facts but from what I can tell, they put out more HP than the 600s in stock form. This is straight off the AMA site for the DSB class:

Horsepower: 120 hp to 140 hp
Minimum Weights: 4 cylinders – 355 lbs.; 3 cylinders – 360 lbs.; 2 cylinders – 375 lbs.

From what I have heard, none of the 600s in NZ are even close to 140HP so the rules over there are probably more different than you think. Also interesting that they impose weight penalties for the twins.

I'm undecided. It would be nice to have more / different bikes on the grid but the fact is that they have an extra 250cc and if they did prove to be better than the 600s then we might have gained a manufacturer only to lose support form a major backer such as Suzuki.

[CHOPPA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_848

[scracha]

There's nothing to stop you from submitting a remit to MNZ for any of the bikes you'd like to enter Stevie.

Who say's Kiwi's don't get sarcasm?



749 yuk?....................haha did you not look at that frankencane you rode (sorry paul)

Frankencane is work in progress. She's allowed to be ugly. It's not like I've spent thousa....oh....fuck. Anyway...the new fairing and paint Billy made just jinxed her.



Awwww, here's me thinking you were a cultured European gentleman with sublime taste. I'm crushed, it's like finding out the Master Chef judges can't wait for Macca's after the show.
Sorry, but haven ridden a 749s I can honestly say it felt and sounded almost Japanese compared to the 748r. And shit...ugly. Mibby Billy could shoehorn some 748 fairings on yours?

Fuck Mickey D's......Gordon Ramsey gets a lob-on for the potato and gravy at Kiwi KFC's.

[slowpoke]

Sorry, but haven ridden a 749s I can honestly say it felt and sounded almost Japanese compared to the 748r. And shit...ugly. Mibby Billy could shoehorn some 748 fairings on yours?

Fuck Mickey D's......Gordon Ramsey gets a lob-on for the potato and gravy at Kiwi KFC's.

Think R model Stevie, with the short stroke, Ti rods, hotter cams etc, dry slipper clutch music, monster Leo Vince full system, big airbox etc etc Can't say I've got a clue what to do with it but at my age any erection is a good erection!

[slowpoke]

I haven't done enough research to know all the facts but from what I can tell, they put out more HP than the 600s in stock form. This is straight off the AMA site for the DSB class:

Horsepower: 120 hp to 140 hp
Minimum Weights: 4 cylinders – 355 lbs.; 3 cylinders – 360 lbs.; 2 cylinders – 375 lbs.

From what I have heard, none of the 600s in NZ are even close to 140HP so the rules over there are probably more different than you think. Also interesting that they impose weight penalties for the twins.

I'm undecided. It would be nice to have more / different bikes on the grid but the fact is that they have an extra 250cc and if they did prove to be better than the 600s then we might have gained a manufacturer only to lose support form a major backer such as Suzuki.

Thanks Dan. Hard to tell what your hp range is referring to when read in isolation but don't forget the DSB class was originally created with twins ranging from 848's to Aprilia RSV1000R to Buell 1125R. I reckon you'll find the Ape and Duc at one end of that hp range and the Buell at the other. The weight limit was/is across the board for twins yet targetting the Buells, hence the 848 are struggling now and not many folks run them.

Nah, the engine rules are even more restrictive than our supersport rules. No cams, no porting, no after market rods or pistons, no crank lightening, can't even replace valve springs, cotters or retainers. Basically you can bump up compression through skimming respective gasket surfaces/skinny gaskets, change or slot the cam sprockets, and change the inlet trumpets. Throw on a zorst, add a PC and that's about it for makin' mumbo. Go here for the full run down (half way down): http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/AMAPro-RR-2011-Rulebook.pdf

I'm all for keeping manufacturers in the sport but they have to realise it is a competition. No manufacturer should be allowed to assume a postion where they are allowed to dictate the terms of that competiton. That is for people far less biased and with a "big picture" view of the sport of motorcycle road racing in NZ, not selling an individual brand/model of bike. I'll be pretty disappointed if any manufacturer has so little faith in their bikes/riders that they are not willing to test them against all comers.

[scracha]

Think R model Stevie, with the short stroke, Ti rods, hotter cams etc, dry slipper clutch music, monster Leo Vince full system, big airbox etc etc Can't say I've got a clue what to do with it but at my age any erection is a good erection!
I'd sacrifice 8 ponies to have my old prettier 748r any day (more torque too). I'll tell you exactly what to do with it. Give up racing it...unless you're fast. Wobble about on a 6 hundy and you get encouragement and can sometimes hang out with the cool kids and scab their used tyres for next to fark all. Wobble about on a spaghetti bike and you get abuse from flabby old geezers telling you you ride like a girl, don't DESERVE to ride that bike, etc etc. Far more enjoyable pootling around the Coro, blatting the Termi's when passing young ladies and giving you a chance to explain the merits of a dry clutch to anyone stupid enough to ask "there's something rattling in your engine" prior to sipping your frappuccino contemplating the spectacularly uncomfortable ride to the next cafe 15km up the road ;)

[slowpoke]

I'd sacrifice 8 ponies to have my old prettier 748r any day (more torque too). I'll tell you exactly what to do with it. Give up racing it...unless you're fast. Wobble about on a 6 hundy and you get encouragement and can sometimes hang out with the cool kids and scab their used tyres for next to fark all. Wobble about on a spaghetti bike and you get abuse from flabby old geezers telling you you ride like a girl, don't DESERVE to ride that bike, etc etc. Far more enjoyable pootling around the Coro, blatting the Termi's when passing young ladies and giving you a chance to explain the merits of a dry clutch to anyone stupid enough to ask "there's something rattling in your engine" prior to sipping your frappuccino contemplating the spectacularly uncomfortable ride to the next cafe 15km up the road ;)

Frappa-farkin'-what? You smarmy bloody know it all Yooropeeans......(goes off to ask Mr Google what the fuck a frappadappa-thingo is....)

Poofy coffee! Ya cheeky coont! What's wrong with International Roast? If you want poofy you can have it outta one of those cute lil' sachets, ok? What do you think this is a Day Spa?

6 hundy 6 schmundy, your a boring ol' bugger for a bloke who drinks something I can't even say...........

[Dreama]

I'd sacrifice 8 ponies to have my old prettier 748r any day (more torque too). I'll tell you exactly what to do with it. Give up racing it...unless you're fast. Wobble about on a 6 hundy and you get encouragement and can sometimes hang out with the cool kids and scab their used tyres for next to fark all. Wobble about on a spaghetti bike and you get abuse from flabby old geezers telling you you ride like a girl, don't DESERVE to ride that bike, etc etc. Far more enjoyable pootling around the Coro, blatting the Termi's when passing young ladies and giving you a chance to explain the merits of a dry clutch to anyone stupid enough to ask "there's something rattling in your engine" prior to sipping your frappuccino contemplating the spectacularly uncomfortable ride to the next cafe 15km up the road ;)

Ha, if only. Nuf said, not even worth responding. But .... imo ..
I built the 749R in question and having also built up my 996 Corse style racers c/w bling I can tell you without a blink that the 749R in race trim, with all the fruit, is way more horny looking and infinitly more comfortable than the 748/996s. And I've had ALOT of hours working on, just looking at and drooling over both versions, as you do.

And the crap about 140hp from a 749/848 ..... only serious serious $ can reap you those figures and by then the hand grenade scenario is omnipresent.
125hp is achievable relatively easily, after that think big $.

Like Choppa said, it's a middle weight sport bike class, not a 600cc class. The 848 is a middle weight sport bike .... why even bother comparing it to a 600 il4 engine. Mechanically and engineering wise they are black and white, meaning yes, that il4's are intrinsically mechanically superior cc verses cc.
The 848cc twin is probably comparable to a 600cc il4 performance wise, it's simple mechanics.

[discodan]

Thanks Dan. Hard to tell what your hp range is referring to when read in isolation but don't forget the DSB class was originally created with twins ranging from 848's to Aprilia RSV1000R to Buell 1125R. I reckon you'll find the Ape and Duc at one end of that hp range and the Buell at the other. The weight limit was/is across the board for twins yet targetting the Buells, hence the 848 are struggling now and not many folks run them.

Nah, the engine rules are even more restrictive than our supersport rules. No cams, no porting, no after market rods or pistons, no crank lightening, can't even replace valve springs, cotters or retainers. Basically you can bump up compression through skimming respective gasket surfaces/skinny gaskets, change or slot the cam sprockets, and change the inlet trumpets. Throw on a zorst, add a PC and that's about it for makin' mumbo. Go here for the full run down (half way down): http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/AMAPro-RR-2011-Rulebook.pdf

I'm all for keeping manufacturers in the sport but they have to realise it is a competition. No manufacturer should be allowed to assume a postion where they are allowed to dictate the terms of that competiton. That is for people far less biased and with a "big picture" view of the sport of motorcycle road racing in NZ, not selling an individual brand/model of bike. I'll be pretty disappointed if any manufacturer has so little faith in their bikes/riders that they are not willing to test them against all comers.

OK, so realistically they should be similar power to the 600s. I took that power range from the AMA website and read it as 'even the slowest bikes are as quick as our fastest bikes' but maybe it is only the Buells are at the upper end.

The only reason I would suggest that a manufacturer might get annoyed by allowing the 848 in is that the rules are being changed for that bike and not that they have just produced a better bike that fits in the current rules.

I guess we will find out when a top rider gets on one if the change goes ahead.

[Drew]

GSXR-750 is a middle weight, and WAAA, I want a class to run it competitively in!

The crowd with the coin to buy an 848 could also start making the B.E.A.rs club run events regularly again. Club cup!

I understand where Spud is coming from, but people can buy any bike they like, why is it the rest of the paddocks problem to fit them into the program somewhere?

[Tony.OK]

Who say's Kiwi's don't get sarcasm?


Frankencane is work in progress. She's allowed to be ugly. It's not like I've spent thousa....oh....fuck. Anyway...the new fairing and paint Billy made just jinxed her.


Ahhh buggar ya.....................ya always sound the bloody same to me mate, never sure if you're happy , sad or whingin haha. Scot accent I put it down too :bleh:

GSXR-750 is a middle weight, and WAAA, I want a class to run it competitively in!

The crowd with the coin to buy an 848 could also start making the B.E.A.rs club run events regularly again. Club cup!

I understand where Spud is coming from, but people can buy any bike they like, why is it the rest of the paddocks problem to fit them into the program somewhere?
Oh c'mon Drew.....................we all know the you just want "everyone to like your face" :crazy::drool:

[scracha]

Poofy coffee! Ya cheeky coont! What's wrong with International Roast? If you want poofy you can have it outta one of those cute lil' sachets, ok? What do you think this is a Day Spa?

You're calling this Scotsman a poof but you'd prefer an International Roast eh? :SMIRK.



6 hundy 6 schmundy, your a boring ol' bugger for a bloke who drinks something I can't even say...........
[/quote]
I drink a lot of things you can't even spell




that the 749R in race trim, with all the fruit, is way more horny looking and infinitly more comfortable than the 748/996s. And I've had ALOT of hours working on, just looking at and drooling over both versions, as you do.

Comfortable? Go out and buy an ST4 then. You don't buy a 74X for comfort.

As for looks...just look at resale value of the 748/916/996/998 etc compared to the 749/999.

[sidecar bob]

What difference will it make ten years from now? Have some fun, remember fun, thats why most of us ride bikes isint it?? Let them run the Ducati's. Christ knows, 600's wont get any less interesting than they already are for the inclusion of a different coloured bike.

[slowpoke]

Ha, if only. Nuf said, not even worth responding. But .... imo ..
I built the 749R in question and having also built up my 996 Corse style racers c/w bling I can tell you without a blink that the 749R in race trim, with all the fruit, is way more horny looking and infinitly more comfortable than the 748/996s. And I've had ALOT of hours working on, just looking at and drooling over both versions, as you do.

And the crap about 140hp from a 749/848 ..... only serious serious $ can reap you those figures and by then the hand grenade scenario is omnipresent.
125hp is achievable relatively easily, after that think big $.

Like Choppa said, it's a middle weight sport bike class, not a 600cc class. The 848 is a middle weight sport bike .... why even bother comparing it to a 600 il4 engine. Mechanically and engineering wise they are black and white, meaning yes, that il4's are intrinsically mechanically superior cc verses cc.
The 848cc twin is probably comparable to a 600cc il4 performance wise, it's simple mechanics.

Ed, in the interest of keeping your work load under control (and your 996 project moving forward) I've been trying to keep you out of it, otherwise everyone will want one! Every poor bastard who rocks up at my place (think the meter reader, bloke from Nebulite coming to quote on a skylight etc etc) gets to hear it whether they like it or not: any excuse to fire it up, haha. The founder of Leo Vince should have been at the top of the Queen's Birthday honours list.

Here's a sample of Ed's work while it was in progress....mightn't be everyones cup of tea but it's sex on a stick as far as I'm concerned:

[koba]

Given the complete apathy that the licence holders show when it comes time to vote for President or the Board why would they vote for a rule change...


People that care, vote. People that dont care, dont vote.

Secondly its a lot closer to home when the rules get changed for the class you race in. Most people obviously couldnt give a shit who is on the Board or who is the President. (i voted)

I've only read the first page at this point so don't shoot me if I've missed something but I feel compelled to disagree with these statements. I willfully abstained from the last MNZ vote because I knew I didn't fully understand the ramifications of my vote.
I think ignorant or ill-considered voting is worse than abstinence.

[CHOPPA]

I've only read the first page at this point so don't shoot me if I've missed something but I feel compelled to disagree with these statements. I willfully abstained from the last MNZ vote because I knew I didn't fully understand the ramifications of my vote.
I think ignorant or ill-considered voting is worse than abstinence.

I would put you in the dont care category because if your really cared you would look into the ramifications and make an informed decision

[slowpoke]

GSXR-750 is a middle weight, and WAAA, I want a class to run it competitively in!

The crowd with the coin to buy an 848 could also start making the B.E.A.rs club run events regularly again. Club cup!

I understand where Spud is coming from, but people can buy any bike they like, why is it the rest of the paddocks problem to fit them into the program somewhere?

How is it a problem for the rest of the paddock? What do they do except turn up and race as normal? It's only "a problem" for the MNZRRC who have to try and sift through all the info and decide on what's best for the sport.

I know what you mean with the whole "I want it so I should get it" "me me me" type arguments (what can I say I shoulda had more discipline as a kid) but the counter is that some variation in the Supersport class would be a good thing for the sport in general, not just a few individual's. A new manufacturer involved would be a good thing. As you mention, incentive (more numbers) to run more BEAR's meetings up North would be a good thing. More bikes on the Supersport grid would be a good thing. More interest from spectators/sponsors would be a good thing. Etc etc. Hopefully the pro's and con's speak for themselves.

Oh yeah, is this a good time to mention that I think you're a particularly handsome individual?

[slowpoke]

What difference will it make ten years from now? Have some fun, remember fun, thats why most of us ride bikes isint it?? Let them run the Ducati's. Christ knows, 600's wont get any less interesting than they already are for the inclusion of a different coloured bike.

Nail....hammer....WACK!

[Drew]

How is it a problem for the rest of the paddock? What do they do except turn up and race as normal? It's only "a problem" for the MNZRRC who have to try and sift through all the info and decide on what's best for the sport.

I know what you mean with the whole "I want it so I should get it" "me me me" type arguments (what can I say I shoulda had more discipline as a kid) but the counter is that some variation in the Supersport class would be a good thing for the sport in general, not just a few individual's. A new manufacturer involved would be a good thing. As you mention, incentive (more numbers) to run more BEAR's meetings up North would be a good thing. More bikes on the Supersport grid would be a good thing. More interest from spectators/sponsors would be a good thing. Etc etc. Hopefully the pro's and con's speak for themselves.

Oh yeah, is this a good time to mention that I think you're a particularly handsome individual?I don't really mind if they run with supersport, I don't think anyone seriously contesting a national championship will run one, the price of Ducati is stupidly prohibitive to do anything with.

Ed, is that one of Spud's a hybrid of my old one and another?

[Billy]

Okay,

So I said I wasn't going to post in this forum other than in the sticky thread above,But its locked and I can't get into it so will have too reply here.

850 TWINS IN SUPERSPORT

After much research and a serious amount of discussion between myself and the applicant,Other members,The board and Distributors,I have made the decision and advised the board that I would prefer this rulechange was not ratified for 2013,BUT that we discuss it further with ALL concerned with the suggestion it be introduced for 2014 if we can,The biggest factor in this for me is that I would like too see a change to the class for 2014 and if my proposed changes were to happen,I'm not sure how the Ducati 848 would fit in,I personally wouldn't want to see any member spend their hard earned cash on a machine to find they could only race it at National level for 1 year.

ROADRACE NUMBERS

It would appear there has been a severe abuse of this system with people applying for numbers for classes they simply do not have the machinery or budget too run and more than likely never will,It came to light a month or so ago when a current NZ champion moving up to the Superbike class for 2014 was informed there were NO double digit numbers available for the class,On further investigation it appears we have in excess of 150 superbikes in the country ?????Wonder where they all are come Nationals!These official numbers are for National level riders ONLY and are restricted from now on for those applying for a National licence from this year on,I have spoken to the girls at the MNZ office and the numbers list that applied up until this date has been deleted barring the following,Numbers 1-10 have been retained as per last years results and the following 2 numbers have been withdrawn for the foreseeable future as a mark of respect to Cameron Jones and Mark Brehaut,Both 67 and 26 will be unavailable for BOTH the Superstock 600 and Supersport classes,IF you are applying for a National licence for 2013,You will have to reapply for your number,Preference will be given to the holder of these numbers from 2012 and will apply to double digit numbers ONLY,Those applications for a number for more than 1 class will be sent by the office to me for consideration before being confirmed.

As always if you have any queries or complaints you can contact me at the details listed in the sticky thread at the top of the page.

[sidecar bob]

I expect anyone arguing against the 848's will not be a front running 600 rider.
More likley a budget racer with a 4 or 5 year old bike that is threatened by the Duke.
For the Duke guys, I doubt it is about how much money they spend, or where they come, but about thrashing their favourite kind of bike in an appropriate class.
I dont race old BMW's because I think theyre fast, I race them because I understand them & am fond of them.

[koba]

I would put you in the dont care category because if your really cared you would look into the ramifications and make an informed decision

Bollocks, one can look into things and still be ill informed.
I'd be willing to bet you probably haven't spent as much time as I did thinking and learning about each party and trying to suss their agenda.
I did spend time and effort researching and discussing the options which shows I do care. Still, I couldn't satisfy myself that one candidate was a clear favorite over the other.

No vote doesn't = no care, it's just not that simple.

[Drew]

I'm in the wrong company to make this comment, but that never stopped me before.

The Ducati lovers are so dedicated to their machines that they'll turn them into race bikes despite their lack of competitiveness, fine with me. They then petition for those bikes to be allowed into a class where they would be competitive arguing that they are a middle weight and it's a class designed for said bikes. Fair enough again. But let's consider for a second, the manufacturer itself. Everyone else makes the effort to stay in the current supersport rules. Triumph wanted a triple, so they went 675. Kawasaki needed to make two separate models to stay in the rules.

Ducati don't give a fuck about supersport, ever since they built the 749r and still got their arse handed to them. It was the highest spec production bike they'd ever made... Bar NONE. They realised then that what they made was not viable in themiddle weight class, so they developed a bike purely for the road Market.

If Ducati have no aspiration to contest the class, why should our dealers? It will have even less gain for them, than the current distributors get.

[Dreama]

I don't really mind if they run with supersport, I don't think anyone seriously contesting a national championship will run one, the price of Ducati is stupidly prohibitive to do anything with.

Ed, is that one of Spud's a hybrid of my old one and another?

Hey Drew,
Let's just say that the import papers are the same !!!

Not much remains from the bike that was the one you rode ... bit of the wire loom,forks and shock (had the Robert Taylor workover $$ treatment though), s/arm (refurbished), exterior appearance of the engine .. oh .. tranny was ok, wheels (as spares) ...... about it really ...... pretty much everything else is completely different.
Spud's got a gem mate ... just a shame there isn't a thriving class of similier bikes to race against ie something like 'middleweight twins' like they have in the US.

[slowpoke]

Okay,

So I said I wasn't going to post in this forum other than in the sticky thread above,But its locked and I can't get into it so will have too reply here.

850 TWINS IN SUPERSPORT

After much research and a serious amount of discussion between myself and the applicant,Other members,The board and Distributors,I have made the decision and advised the board that I would prefer this rulechange was not ratified for 2013,BUT that we discuss it further with ALL concerned with the suggestion it be introduced for 2014 if we can,The biggest factor in this for me is that I would like too see a change to the class for 2014 and if my proposed changes were to happen,I'm not sure how the Ducati 848 would fit in,I personally wouldn't want to see any member spend their hard earned cash on a machine to find they could only race it at National level for 1 year.


Thanks Billy, appreciate the post and the reasoning behind your decision. Hmmmm, curious as hell about your proposal for 2014 now!

[Drew]

Hey Drew,
Let's just say that the import papers are the same !!!

Not much remains from the bike that was the one you rode ... bit of the wire loom,forks and shock (had the Robert Taylor workover $$ treatment though), s/arm (refurbished), exterior appearance of the engine .. oh .. tranny was ok, wheels (as spares) ...... about it really ...... pretty much everything else is completely different.
Spud's got a gem mate ... just a shame there isn't a thriving class of similier bikes to race against ie something like 'middleweight twins' like they have in the US.
Yeah, I noticed the tank. Not many came here with the long range tank...And it's matt black.

Did you scrap the frame? It would have made a good home for an ER6 motor, but prolly still a bit porky.

[jellywrestler]

They then petition for those bikes to be allowed into a class where they would be competitive arguing that they are a middle weight and it's a class designed for said bikes.
So when you were still teething Drew this class was up to 550 cc, before that it had evolved from 350cc machines the 'Superbike' class of the day was the 500cc class.
How do you think it actually got there, because bikes came along and they assessed them and found them a suitable match.
Some of the best races I've seen featured twin cylinder two smokes, twin cylinder four strokes and four cylinder four strokes, with CC ratings different to each engine configuration. If there were decent triples around in those days they would have put them in there too with a CC capacity to fit them in too.

As for Sidecar Bobs comment saying it's not a front running 600cc rider who is against this; YES IT IS.

[sidecar bob]

As for Sidecar Bobs comment saying it's not a front running 600cc rider who is against this; YES IT IS.

Id hardly know who's who in the zoo, but that seems a tad odd.
The statistics suggest that the 848 has hardly got a snowballs chance against a well sorted & ridden 600.

[jellywrestler]

Id hardly know who's who in the zoo, but that seems a tad odd.
The statistics suggest that the 848 has hardly got a snowballs chance against a well sorted & ridden 600.


Are you sure, when the 916 dukes ran in WSB they were 1.2 X the size of the fours, 848 vs 600 is 1.4 times, I've no idea actually just got a calculator handy

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=The statistics suggest that the 848 has hardly got a snowballs chance against a well sorted & ridden 600.[/QUOTE]

You are not wrong.

[jasonu]

I'm here to please!

But seriously, why not have 848's race in Supersport class...who really thinks they have an advantage?
!

That is the class Jake Zemke races his 848 in the AMA series. He is good for around 8th place but quite a way back from the lead bunch. There are several new commers as well as a couple of seasoned riders that consistantly finish in front of the Duc. Plus there are one or two usual front runners on the injury list that would beat Jake too.
Jake Zemke may or may not have been world class in the past but currently world class is something he is not.

[Biggles08]

Bollocks, one can look into things and still be ill informed.
I'd be willing to bet you probably haven't spent as much time as I did thinking and learning about each party and trying to suss their agenda.
I did spend time and effort researching and discussing the options which shows I do care. Still, I couldn't satisfy myself that one candidate was a clear favorite over the other.

No vote doesn't = no care, it's just not that simple.

Thats an interesting conundrum Koba and I do empahise, however I'm not sure I would go as far as saying not voting is a valid outcome/decision to make. I realize there are the odd exception to the rule but I truely believe we are all wired with a 'gutt feeling' about many issues and often we are the ones to cloud our own minds when in fact the choice we "should" make is, and always was, pretty obvoius.

I think you are always able to make a voting decision based on a 'gutt' feeling combined with some investigation on your own part. You don't have to be fully understanding of every detail, or indeed 100% agree with either choice of what you are voting on, rather a understanding of the issue, with an action towards the best outcome in your opinion.

With regards to the 848's I am a little disappointed they are not going to be allowed as I think it would have been pretty cool racing against them and good for the class overall.

[Drew]

So when you were still teething Drew this class was up to 550 cc, before that it had evolved from 350cc machines the 'Superbike' class of the day was the 500cc class.
How do you think it actually got there, because bikes came along and they assessed them and found them a suitable match.
Some of the best races I've seen featured twin cylinder two smokes, twin cylinder four strokes and four cylinder four strokes, with CC ratings different to each engine configuration. If there were decent triples around in those days they would have put them in there too with a CC capacity to fit them in too.

As for Sidecar Bobs comment saying it's not a front running 600cc rider who is against this; YES IT IS.

Did they amend the rules to allow one manufacturer though? The rules have changed to flow with market as they should, but what other bike will benefit from this change? Who else gets to race when before they couldn't?

Front running supersport protestor, hmmm... Not a very long list of people who it might be.

[codgyoleracer]

Are you sure, when the 916 dukes ran in WSB they were 1.2 X the size of the fours, 848 vs 600 is 1.4 times, I've no idea actually just got a calculator handy

Shhh, dont let anyone onto the fact that Sv650's are 1.45 x larger than 450cc 4's............

[Dreama]

Yeah, I noticed the tank. Not many came here with the long range tank...And it's matt black.

Did you scrap the frame? It would have made a good home for an ER6 motor, but prolly still a bit porky.

Actually Drew that's the tank that was on it when you had it, same colour an all ! It was only on the bike in that pic cos it had gas in it for starting up for the first time. The tank on it now is red, c/f and smaller.

Spud has the old frame plus a huge heap of the original parts/spares etc ..... I sold the lot once I realised that
a/ I'm stone broke, business sucks and
b/ due to a/ the very real possibility of injury racing motorcycles would mean zero income. Before the recession I spent my days in the office pricing and quoting etc and if I got injured the 4-5 guys in the workshop could keep the ship afloat and unless I was seriously maimed I could still do my job.
Now it's just me and my son working our arse off for fuck all.

Anyway, back to the 749R/999R frame ... talk to spud.

[jasonu]

Shhh, dont let anyone onto the fact that Sv650's are 1.45 x larger than 450cc 4's............

and 1.625 times larger than a 400cc 2 stroke twin...:cool:

[worm13]

Shhh, dont let anyone onto the fact that Sv650's are 1.45 x larger than 450cc 4's............

didnt think this was the thread to bring that bad boy out lol, its a hard call would be nice to see some new flavour there but can this lead to what has become of F3 of late, cant beat em join em type case, track performance vs on paper performance I belive a worlds apart, could there be more benefits from the twin on our smaller race tracks then vs what USA have etc etc, also if some people belive they wont win whats the point of changing the current rules for a bike that will still get waxed?

[Mental Trousers]

Thats an interesting conundrum Koba and I do empahise, however I'm not sure I would go as far as saying not voting is a valid outcome/decision to make. I realize there are the odd exception to the rule but I truely believe we are all wired with a 'gutt feeling' about many issues and often we are the ones to cloud our own minds when in fact the choice we "should" make is, and always was, pretty obvoius.

I think you are always able to make a voting decision based on a 'gutt' feeling combined with some investigation on your own part. You don't have to be fully understanding of every detail, or indeed 100% agree with either choice of what you are voting on, rather a understanding of the issue, with an action towards the best outcome in your opinion.

With regards to the 848's I am a little disappointed they are not going to be allowed as I think it would have been pretty cool racing against them and good for the class overall.

Not voting is a perfectly valid choice as long as it's an informed one. When there's a Yes/No option often the best choice for the voter isn't covered. A gut feeling that neither option is suitable means you'd be voting for the least crap option if you did vote.

Consciously choosing not to vote when you've researched the options isn't the same as being a useless, apathetic wanker like most.

[Biggles08]

Not voting is a perfectly valid choice as long as it's an informed one. When there's a Yes/No option often the best choice for the voter isn't covered. A gut feeling that neither option is suitable means you'd be voting for the least crap option if you did vote.

Exactly my point. if it is a black or white outcome regardless of if you vote or not...surely the least crap option is the one you would rather no matter how un-ideal it is. You won't get any argument from me if you said that the whole democratic process is far from close to being perfect, yet it is the only one we have, and for it to work people need to vote...for it to work best, more people need to vote.



Consciously choosing not to vote when you've researched the options isn't the same as being a useless, apathetic wanker like most.
I do not disagree with this.

[Mental Trousers]

Exactly my point. if it is a black or white outcome regardless of if you vote or not...surely the least crap option is the one you would rather no matter how un-ideal it is. You won't get any argument from me if you said that the whole democratic process is far from close to being perfect, yet it is the only one we have, and for it to work people need to vote...for it to work best, more people need to vote.

At times neither is the least crap of the 3 crap options.

[slowpoke]

Yeah, I noticed the tank. Not many came here with the long range tank...And it's matt black.

Did you scrap the frame? It would have made a good home for an ER6 motor, but prolly still a bit porky.

Dunno 'bout the frame being porky, so much as the Duc engine. Admittedly it's only one cylinder wide from the front but as in the pic I posted viewed from side on she's a farkin' big unit (what can I say, I like a few curves). It wouldn't be cheap but here's an interesting idea: http://motowheels.com/i-8424627-motowheels-project-bike-2004-ducati-649.html Ed's just the man to get it done too.


As for Sidecar Bobs comment saying it's not a front running 600cc rider who is against this; YES IT IS.

Fear makes people do strange things....they fair crapped themselves at the thought of Sidecar Bob rolling out the mighty R80 Beemer.

[jellywrestler]

a 'gutt' feeling I once had one of these when I was shagging a chick, turned out she'd had her Uterus surgically removed!

[slowpoke]

I once had one of these when I was shagging a chick, turned out she'd had her Uterus surgically removed!

Bling for the worst joke I've heard this year!

[Drew]

Dunno 'bout the frame being porky, so much as the Duc engine. Admittedly it's only one cylinder wide from the front but as in the pic I posted viewed from side on she's a farkin' big unit (what can I say, I like a few curves). It wouldn't be cheap but here's an interesting idea: http://motowheels.com/i-8424627-motowheels-project-bike-2004-ducati-649.html Ed's just the man to get it done too.


The air box is the only bit that goes between the frame spars under the tank. Give it a measure, could be feasable, and it'd be a better starting point than what Chappy is building.

[sidecar bob]

When you are a racer, it is fair to assume that all others that are racing also share the same goal as you do.
This is often not the case.
When you are a class leader, the primary goal for you, is winning races & points above all.
What about the people that are mid to late pack & will never win a race, their motivation is completely different, socal, fun, passion for a certain brand, or testing their abilites to build a bike largely from scratch & having somewhere to test their engineering skills.
Sidecar racing is full of that type of individual & actually winning is not a priority for them at all.
I would suggest to any top contender that is concerned about the inclusion of Ducati's in their class, that the Duke rider is clearly not competing for the same reasons you are, or they would be riding a 600.
Be thankful they have chosen a slow money pit to race, because if you block them from doing that, god knows how much faster they will go if they go the 600 route instead.

[jellywrestler]

Did they amend the rules to allow one manufacturer though? At times yes

[Drew]

At times yesThen I don't agree with the changes.

This particular change though, is in the interest of VERY few. Since we live in New Zealand, I guess it will go through. Right or wrong.

[Biggles08]

Then I don't agree with the changes.

This particular change though, is in the interest of VERY few. Since we live in New Zealand, I guess it will go through. Right or wrong.
Not this year it appears Drew.

[Cleve]

Then I don't agree with the changes.

This particular change though, is in the interest of VERY few. Since we live in New Zealand, I guess it will go through. Right or wrong.

In the possible interest of very few - but - in possible detriment to no one. Isn't that the better way to consider it.

[Drew]

In the possible interest of very few - but - in possible detriment to no one. Isn't that the better way to consider it.

Possible demerit to no one. Hmmm, why doesn't that sound better? Oh yeah, because the guys who are doing it right, within the rules as they stand, might get shafted for a few people with more money and less talent!

[sidecar bob]

Possible demerit to no one. Hmmm, why doesn't that sound better? Oh yeah, because the guys who are doing it right, within the rules as they stand, might get shafted for a few people with more money and less talent!

But aint that racing? There are three things that give an advantage, riding talent, technical knowledge & cash.
Different people find different ones easier to come by.
You are fortunate enough to already posses the one that cant be bought.

[slowpoke]

Possible demerit to no one. Hmmm, why doesn't that sound better? Oh yeah, because the guys who are doing it right, within the rules as they stand, might get shafted for a few people with more money and less talent!

No talent? I resemble that remark! But I know one NZ champion who will be hoping to see you on track sometime, haha.

But really, do you reckon someone with no talent is gonna come along and do what Zemke and Pegram can't/couldn't in the 'States? You're dreamin'.

And lemme get this straight: Sketchy, Dennis and others at the pointy end who were given free of charge the latest machinery, modified to the highest spec, are somehow shafted when somebody who has worked hard and/or made a few sacrifices to buy a bike out of their own pocket wants to compete with them? Hmmm, don't quite understand that one.....

[Drew]

No talent? I resemble that remark! But I know one NZ champion who will be hoping to see you on track sometime, haha.

But really, do you reckon someone with no talent is gonna come along and do what Zemke and Pegram can't/couldn't in the 'States? You're dreamin'.

And lemme get this straight: Sketchy, Dennis and others at the pointy end who were given free of charge the latest machinery, modified to the highest spec, are somehow shafted when somebody who has worked hard and/or made a few sacrifices to buy a bike out of their own pocket wants to compete with them? Hmmm, don't quite understand that one.....Let me try and clarify my point a bit. I am working on the theory, that in wsb a 200cc advantage makes the twin competitive, easy math for the class makes that 20%. So to apply 200cc to supersport instead of the same 20% opens a door I disagree with. Ok, everyone got that?

Right then, now add to that the slight difference between Jayden, Glen, Dennis, and Allistair, and the level of riders in the states. Don't get me wrong, those pricks are all fuckin awesome, and four seconds faster than me, but they aren't in the same class I'm afraid.

So someone as fast as me, with a good wallet or backing could maybe keep up and beat those guys. I don't think that is fair.

[Drew]

But aint that racing? There are three things that give an advantage, riding talent, technical knowledge & cash.
Different people find different ones easier to come by.
You are fortunate enough to already posses the one that cant be bought.
Any talent I might have, is greatly belittled by my inability to work up to something, and just going he'll for leather.

And spud, I seriously doubt any champ gives two shits weather I'm on track or not. I'm too slow to keep up, and fast enough not to get lapped and in the way.

[Dreama]

Let me try and clarify my point a bit. I am working on the theory, that in wsb a 200cc advantage makes the twin competitive, easy math for the class makes that 20%. So to apply 200cc to supersport instead of the same 20% opens a door I disagree with. Ok, everyone got that?

Right then, now add to that the slight difference between Jayden, Glen, Dennis, and Allistair, and the level of riders in the states. Don't get me wrong, those pricks are all fuckin awesome, and four seconds faster than me, but they aren't in the same class I'm afraid.

So someone as fast as me, with a good wallet or backing could maybe keep up and beat those guys. I don't think that is fair.

Drew, you're argument is relatively compelling up to the point where it doesn't make sense .... I doubt Zemke would be far off the pace if he was on a competitive 600, yet on the 848 he is definitly not on the front runners pace (at least that's what we assume judging by his results).

So using that thread of logic, would it not follow that if you were on a competitive 600 and trailing by the 4 seconds or so that you have said you are behind the pace of our fast guys, then surely stepping onto an 848 would disadvantage you even more, going by Zemkes efforts ?

And with regards to the 20% theory on the superbikes verses supersport, I get what you disagree with if I was to assume you were an idiot that only sees displacement as the gauge in engine performance. I don't think that about you ... but you're sounding alot like someone that has an unreasonable grudge/dislike/axe to grind.

As someone has pointed out already, the whole history of race classes evolves and changes to accomodate different manufacturers, bikes and teams.

[slowpoke]

The decision has been made, and the sport stays exactly as it is. Some will like that and some won't, but nothing's gonna change it.

Thanks to everyone for their input, was good to get a few different sides and at least discuss it. Thank you linesmen, thank you ballboys.

[Drew]

The decision has been made, and the sport stays exactly as it is. Some will like that and some won't, but nothing's gonna change it.

Thanks to everyone for their input, was good to get a few different sides and at least discuss it. Thank you linesmen, thank you ballboys.

Thank you chalker.

[Cracker]

Er, what happened to the old fashioned whored up, whiskey drinking motorcycle rules Dictator who just rubber stamps these rule changes after a snort of Viagra at midnight. Cuts out a lot of useless nagging democracy. Whatever, 2014 can hardly wait.