Welfare support and drug testing

[wharekura]

Common sense at long last? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816778
I don't mind giving a hand-up to those in need, but for those that do not want to contribute deserves equal treatment from the hands the feed them - what say you comrades?

[oneofsix]

Common sense at long last? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816778
I don't mind giving a hand-up to those in need, but for those that do not want to contribute deserves equal treatment from the hands the feed them - what say you comrades?

Very appropriate. You will do what Uncle Stalin says or else. The other side of Nanny state. We politicians, our consultants and lawyers can be pissed as farts when ruining the country but god help you if you fail some dodgy drug test unprofessionally administered at the local fast food chain. :woohoo:

If you like your booze or tote and decide the forestry worker is not for you then you will also be punished on the presumption it is because you would fail the test.

More dealing with the symptoms of previous failed policies rather than address the problem. Of course you can't address the real issue, the IMF etc wouldn't like that.

[Akzle]

Common sense at long last? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816778
I don't mind giving a hand-up to those in need, but for those that do not want to contribute deserves equal treatment from the hands the feed them - what say you comrades?

i have no objection to it, i also have no objection with "work for benefit" schemes, which i think would be more beneficial to the country (+cheaper to implement) than the increased spending that will be required for the drug-testing, with no nett flow-on financial benefit.

and what are they going to do if one passes a drug test with all the colors? will they cut off their benny? then what? they'll be insolvent, hooked on crack and looking for money.. they obviously can't or wont work so who will they look to to take money off?

i see this creating more problems than it is purported to solve. (whatever the perceived problem is....)

i also think all govt employees should be drug tested: politicians, ministry of justice staff, and policy enforcement staff.

but what about the beneficiaries who grow their own dope, who aren't spending "society's" hard-taxed dollars on buying the stuff....

[Paul in NZ]

Hmm - while I think this is at its core a good idea, its a bit tricky this one.

1st time I'd rather see a compulsory drug / alcohol / substance abuse course etc for a failed result. Just cutting the benefit will impact on any kids before a true addict stops drinking / drugging etc.

Effective welfare must have two thrusts. Support of innocent kids who are impacted by parents situation and scaffolding people currently in difficulty into self reliance. Often this is about building a good relationship with people to demonstrate decent behavior.

Cheers

[sidecar bob]

Very appropriate. You will do what Uncle Stalin says or else. The other side of Nanny state. We politicians, our consultants and lawyers can be pissed as farts when ruining the country but god help you if you fail some dodgy drug test unprofessionally administered at the local fast food chain. :woohoo:

If you like your booze or tote and decide the forestry worker is not for you then you will also be punished on the presumption it is because you would fail the test.

More dealing with the symptoms of previous failed policies rather than address the problem. Of course you can't address the real issue, the IMF etc wouldn't like that.

A rant from the warped logic of a "mellow" pot smoker.

[Akzle]

A rant from the warped logic of a "mellow" pot smoker.

an unobjective, pointless retort from someone whose opinion apparently isn't worth putting words to.

[Buyasta]

They actually passed a similar law to this in Florida last year - anyone wanting to receive welfare had to pass a drug test... While they no longer had to pay benefits to the 2.6% who failed the test, they still had to pay for the drug testing, so the initiative ended up costing the taxpayer an extra $45,000 over the four months there is data for thus far.

http://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform-racial-justice/just-we-suspected-florida-saved-nothing-drug-testing-welfare
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/florida-drug-testing-program-for-welfare-recipients-not-working-as-promised/
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/florida-didnt-save-money-by-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-data-shows/1225721

Funnily enough, despite the rhetoric being that anyone who wanted to benefit from taxpayer funds must be shown to be free of drugs, when Rick Scott - the governor of Florida who spearheaded the move - was asked if he'd be willing to submit to a drug test, since he was the biggest beneficiary of taxpayer funds in Florida, he felt that if the law were applied to him, rather than just the poor folks, suddenly it was an absurd and insulting proposition.

[oneofsix]

A rant from the warped logic of a "mellow" pot smoker.

Never tried the stuff :doobey: I don't need drugs to get the munchies. I do find the history of making it illegal amusing and know it could assist some sick people but that's another thread ... or is it? What about the cancer patient on Chemo have a tote to restore hunger etc?
How about a wee dram instead? :drinkup:

[sidecar bob]

an unobjective, pointless retort from someone whose opinion apparently isn't worth putting words to.

Someone who thinks its cool to type in green.:niceone:

[sidecar bob]

but what about the beneficiaries who grow their own dope, who aren't spending "society's" hard-taxed dollars on buying the stuff....

They will still remain angry losers with opinions from a universe where they all argue that black is actually white.
Oh sorry, did I forget to mention that I have had some pretty shit life expierences with pot smokers?

[Oscar]

They will still remain angry losers with opinions from a universe where they all argue that black is actually white.
Oh sorry, did I forget to mention that I have had some pretty shit life expierences with pot smokers?

+1

Especially "lifestyle" beneficiaries who grow dope to supplement the money obtained from the long suffering taxpayer.

[ducatilover]

Do it. Then we can have shoe shine kids in the streets, my boots all need polishing.

It's a good idea, to an extent.

But we aren't here for reasonable thoughts and logic so 'ere goes;


You pot smokers are all horrible stupid fuckwitts, you're going to get stoned and flip your car on to my one legged grandmother, then I will hunt you down and kill you, I will then become a hermit to evade teh po-po and all of this will happen because some fucking drop kick had a toke.

Revoke their breathing rights, I don't want to be a hermit.

[Akzle]

They will still remain angry losers with opinions from a universe where they all argue that black is actually white.
Oh sorry, did I forget to mention that I have had some pretty shit life expierences with pot smokers?

angry. dope smokers.
yah. right.
you didn't mention your shit life experiences, and that's unfortunate. but i've had some shit life experiences from cops, alcoholics, P addicts, aucklanders etc.

doesn't mean i'm going to taint all that i meet in future with the same brush. i'll take each as it comes.
in my experience dope smokers are intelligent, funny, caring, relaxed, open minded and have morals (different ones to you but moral none the less). everything from 60 sommat year old christian ladies to 17 year old athiest uni students, beneficiaries, retirees, farmers, corporate executives, hippies, fisherfolk, volunteer workers etc etc.

given that the govt is supposed to represent the will of the people, and some high percentage (no pun) repeatedly poll for decriminilisation at least... wtf are they wasting the time and money on enforcement for?

[ducatilover]

angry. dope smokers.
yah. right.

It happens, I've been there and seen it. :yes:

[sugilite]

They should test for alcohol, and cigarettes too. Just because a substance is illegal (dope) does not mean it is actually worse than legal ones.

[ducatilover]

They should test for alcohol, and cigarettes too. Just because a substance is illegal (dope) does not mean it is actually worse than legal ones.
Does having a fag in the morning impair your ability to work? No, so there's no valid reason to test, is there?
Alcohol, yes, mind altering drugs yes.

[Oscar]

They should test for alcohol, and cigarettes too. Just because a substance is illegal (dope) does not mean it is actually worse than legal ones.

They should test for quantities of anything that is going to interfere with their ability to bring up children, or look for a job or retrain (whatever the priority is).

I don’t mind the odd joint or beer, but where the abuse of it (or the cost in the case of cigs), becomes the primary reason for someone being supported by the state or it starts to affect children - then something should be done (and that something does not necessarily have to be punative at first).

[oneofsix]

Does having a fag in the morning impair your ability to work? No, so there's no valid reason to test, is there?
Alcohol, yes, mind altering drugs yes.

Yeah having a fag does impair your ability, but to what extent would be the real issue. Having an energy drink also affects you, again to what extent.

Therefore failing a drug test means you have had the drugs, been affected by them but to what extent are you affected at the time of the test or is it just measuring residue?

[SMOKEU]

A rant from the warped logic of a "mellow" pot smoker.


They will still remain angry losers with opinions from a universe where they all argue that black is actually white.
Oh sorry, did I forget to mention that I have had some pretty shit life expierences with pot smokers?

I've met a few Falcon owners who are nothing more than common criminals, so that means that all Falcon owners are criminals, right? That's pretty much what your logic says.


Does having a fag in the morning impair your ability to work?

Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco

[Big Dave]

I'm OK with it as long as the test is multiple choice.

[jellywrestler]

Does having a fag in the morning impair your ability to work?
It can make ones arse extremely sore, ask White Trash...

[ducatilover]

Yeah having a fag does impair your ability, but to what extent would be the real issue. Having an energy drink also affects you, again to what extent.

Therefore failing a drug test means you have had the drugs, been affected by them but to what extent are you affected at the time of the test or is it just measuring residue?
I'd like to know how it will impair me, apart from 50 years down the track when I die.





Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco
I don't see anything apart from raising the heart rate momentarily, looking at sexy women does that, do we have to test women for sexy?

Snippet from your article here
Unlike some recreational drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use), nicotine does not measurably alter a smoker's motor skills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill), judgement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement), or language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language) abilities while under the influence of the drug.

[ducatilover]

It can make ones arse extremely sore, ask White Trash...

You get used to it :sick:

[Big Dave]

>> do we have to test women for sexy?<<

You don't apply the Goth index?

[ducatilover]

>> do we have to test women for sexy?<<

You don't apply the Goth index?

I use the old fashioned quality of wood method.

[Bikemad]

Does having a fag in the morning impair your ability to work?

maybe not but...........not having one seems to affect their ability to work it would seem judging by all the people you see standing outside office blocks etc puffing away..............some would say these people are weak individuals/addicts/substance abusers and should not be employed in the first place

[ducatilover]

maybe not but...........not having one seems to affect their ability to work it would seem judging by all the people you see standing outside office blocks etc puffing away..............some would say these people are weak individuals/addicts/substance abusers and should not be employed in the first place

Some would say the same for caffeine lovers, fruit juice lovers and sugar lovers.
Time to roll out the DL-Reich methinks.

[sidecar bob]

I've met a few Falcon owners who are nothing more than common criminals, so that means that all Falcon owners are criminals, right? That's pretty much what your logic says.



Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco
Yep, in my expierence, pot smokers are usually attracted to shitty old Falcons, usually because they waste all their money on pot & cant afford anything better. Plus, smoking dope deludes them that an old Falcon is actually a decent car.

[imdying]

Yep, in my expierence, pot smokers are usually attracted to shitty old Falcons, usually because they waste all their money on pot & cant afford anything better. Plus, smoking dope deludes them that an old Falcon is actually a decent car.So really the answer is to supply them with pot for free...?

[skippa1]

I support and agree with it:yes:. I dont mind if they extend it to alchohol as well:yes:. Why should I have spent the last 30+ years working my arse off doing 17 hour days for long periods, sometimes 7 days a week for months when self employed and pay 34+% in tax so that they can live off my handouts? I have held 2 and 3 jobs down at a time to make ends meet, got out of bed at 3 in the morning to start work, worked on the deck of a boat in bitter southerlies risking my life to make a crust. :violin:At one stage I worked fishing and at a timber mill to make enough to buy my kids Christmas presents, I got 3 hours a day off for sleep and food and ended up getting sick through exhaustion(my own stupid fault). I dont expect others to be a dumb fuck like me for doing that, but I dont expect them to spend my hard earned money on dope or alchohol, nor do I expect them to fail a drug test when applying for a job when they are living on my handouts.

I have no issue with those that smoke weed or drink that hold down a job, as long as they dont put others at harm (smoking at work or being otherwise impaired or hung over at work).
I dont mind my tax paying for hospitals, roads, police even ACC and the multitude of other services that we get. I dont mind paying for our retired or sick. I dont even mind paying for genuine situations where a person ends up as a solo parent. But I strongly disagree and resent with giving people money for not working when they spend their time out of it and they cant get a job because they cant pass a test for drugs or alchohol. Fuck that. :motu:

[Akzle]

So really the answer is to supply them with pot for free...?
nononono.:nono:
make them pay for the pot.
charge them for driving a bloody ford!

[SMOKEU]

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug out there. Why? It is one of the most damaging drugs, and the easy availability, legal status and low cost make a deadly combination. Maybe we should look at that first instead of trivial matters such as weed. We should also ban breeding of those who are on benefits, as many of them stay home all day and breed like rabbits which increases the demand on the welfare system far more than a few stoners sitting down all day seshing up. Once a kid is born to a beneficiary, it's often a financial burden on the government for the next 18 years (at least!).

[skippa1]

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug out there. Why? It is one of the most damaging drugs, and the easy availability, legal status and low cost make a deadly combination. Maybe we should look at that first instead of trivial matters such as weed

its not actually about what is or isnt the most dangerous substance<_< its about those that get tax dollars to live and either spend their money on drugs or alchohol, or put themselves in a position where they cant get off a benefit because they cant pass a drug test.:blink: Why would YOU want YOUR tax dollar paying for them to do that?:scratch:

[SMOKEU]

its not actually about what is or isnt the most dangerous substance<_< its about those that get tax dollars to live and either spend their money on drugs or alchohol, or put themselves in a position where they cant get off a benefit because they cant pass a drug test.:blink: Why would YOU want YOUR tax dollar paying for them to do that?:scratch:

I would much rather fund someone who sits at home all day smoking pot than someone who sits at home all day breeding. At least the pot smoker could be put into work and won't necessarily have unwanted offspring which the rest of us have to fund for at least the next 18 years. It costs a lot of money to raise kids, and if the mother stays at home all day to look after the kid, who pays for it? You do the math.

[jasonu]

Quite right too.

[Buyasta]

Quite right too.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816842

Repost, original is here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151012-Welfare-support-and-drug-testing?p=1130350151).

[skippa1]

I would much rather fund someone who sits at home all day smoking pot than someone who sits at home all day breeding. At least the pot smoker could be put into work and won't necessarily have unwanted offspring which the rest of us have to fund for at least the next 18 years. It costs a lot of money to raise kids, and if the mother stays at home all day to look after the kid, who pays for it? You do the math.

shit man keep with the game.....the thread is about drugs and alchohol not where they spread their seed, though you do have a valid point. I dont like them breeding anymore than I like them getting out of it. An old staff member had an accident at work and when drug tested he left before we got the result, he knew he was going to fail. He is on the dole now and was recently in the paper with his preganant missus and 4 kids complaining about the price of accomodation...:facepalm:
He could do with cutting his ball bag off for a start.
Maybe they are breeding because its nice to shag when youre stoned:yes: but because of the short term memory loss they forget to wear condoms?:blink:

[wharekura]

...Why should I have spent the last 30+ years working my arse off doing 17 hour days for long periods, sometimes 7 days a week for months when self employed and pay 34+% in tax so that they can live off my handouts?...
fken agree - you have my vote mate.

[oneofsix]

Does this guy get a reduced benefit?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/7205582/Worker-awarded-13k-after-drug-dismissal
:shit: :no: the courts just gave him a hand out. Law not justice. The dismissal didn't follow the correct procedure regardless that he was risking his and others health and lives. :facepalm:

[sidecar bob]

I would much rather fund someone who sits at home all day smoking pot than someone who sits at home all day breeding. At least the pot smoker could be put into work and won't necessarily have unwanted offspring which the rest of us have to fund for at least the next 18 years. It costs a lot of money to raise kids, and if the mother stays at home all day to look after the kid, who pays for it? You do the math.

You are quick to point out who you "would much rather fund" but do you actually fund anything at all, or are you a dole bludger?
The reason I am on the internet during the middle of the day is that I am the boss/ owner of a company, not because im unemployed.

[oneofsix]

You are quick to point out who you "would much rather fund" but do you actually fund anything at all, or are you a dole bludger?
The reason I am on the internet during the middle of the day is that I am the boss/ owner of a company, not because im unemployed.

One of those self employed people what spend all day on the web complaining in forums about how they work so hard and get so little? :shutup:

:Oops: It were too good an opportunity to leave alone, this being KB and all :shutup:

[imdying]

Why would YOU want YOUR tax dollar paying for them to do that?Because some of those people are the most creative and interesting people I have ever met, and use their time to do things that would otherwise never have come about. Some of them have enriched my life in so many ways I've lost count, ways that I could never hope to replicate just by having another $25,000 PA in my bank account.

If we're beating up on beneficiaries, lets start with those tramps that can't keep their legs shut and have a brood larger than any working family I know.

[sidecar bob]

One of those self employed people what spend all day on the web complaining in forums about how they work so hard and get so little? :shutup:

Umm, where did I do that? I would hardly complain about that seeing as its not the case.

[skippa1]

Because some of those people have the most creative and interesting people I have ever met, use their time to do things that would otherwise never have come about. Some of them have enriched my life in so many ways I've lost count, ways that I could never hope to replicate just by having another $25,000 PA in my bank account.

If we're beating up on beneficiaries, lets start with those tramps that can't keep their legs shut and have a brood larger than any working family I know.

youve got too much time on your hands if youre mixing with stoned "creative and interesting people" :blink:

[jasonu]

I would much rather fund someone who sits at home all day smoking pot than someone who sits at home all day breeding.
.

Why should either be tax payer funded?

[skippa1]

The reason I am on the internet during the middle of the day is that I am the boss/ owner of a company, not because im unemployed.

ditto......

[oneofsix]

Umm, where did I do that? I would hardly complain about that seeing as its not the case.

This is about generalisations, not you personally.

[skippa1]

Why should either be tax payer funded?

exactly :yes:

[ducatilover]

nononono.:nono:
make them pay for the pot.
charge them for driving a bloody ford! Can't argue there :innocent:


Alcohol is the most dangerous drug out there. Why? It is one of the most damaging drugs, and the easy availability, legal status and low cost make a deadly combination. Maybe we should look at that first instead of trivial matters such as weed. We should also ban breeding of those who are on benefits, as many of them stay home all day and breed like rabbits which increases the demand on the welfare system far more than a few stoners sitting down all day seshing up. Once a kid is born to a beneficiary, it's often a financial burden on the government for the next 18 years (at least!).
Have to agree that alcohol is a dangerous one, incredibly so. I've seen some horrible things due to it, I would have to say all in all it creates more issues that pot (only from my observations, just my opinion thing)
Banning breeding is not a subject I like to approach though :shutup: quite a touchy one, especially with all the "human rights" bullshit.
I've given the grog up recently and feel much better for it :woohoo:

One of those self employed people what spend all day on the web complaining in forums about how they work so hard and get so little? :shutup:

Watch this space, I plan to be one soon :sunny:

[mashman]

:crybaby: waaa waaaa waaaa I can't think of a better way to learn those bastards, they're spending the money they receive on things that they want but I don't want them to spend their money on the things they want, waaa waaaa :crybaby:... I feel exactly the same way about the govt most of the time! So sure, let's punish everyone on the dole because of a small percentage who take the piss, yes, remove their freedom now, NONE of them have deserved it and therefore we should implement any number of costly schemes to cut them off from their only money supply and hope that they don't cause a fuss as they try to recooup their losses, after all it's their own fault for being unemployed...

orrrrrrrrr

legalise the stuff and have those growing it sell it to the govt and become tax paying citizens. Perhaps they'll expand their operation to veggies and other produce? Nooooo, sorry, WTF was I thinking, much better to keep them unemployed and lock them up when they get caught. Damn what an enlightened age we live in. I can here it now, but but but, but it'll be political suicide because as we've sold the people, and they have swallowed it (hook line and knee jerk), the image of a beneficiary being a drug takin' thievin' system sucking scumbag... how can we turn that around without losing votes.

[Oscar]

:crybaby: waaa waaaa waaaa I can't think of a better way to learn those bastards, they're spending the money they receive on things that they want but I don't want them to spend their money on the things they want, waaa waaaa :crybaby:... I feel exactly the same way about the govt most of the time! So sure, let's punish everyone on the dole because of a small percentage who take the piss, yes, remove their freedom now, NONE of them have deserved it and therefore we should implement any number of costly schemes to cut them off from their only money supply and hope that they don't cause a fuss as they try to recooup their losses, after all it's their own fault for being unemployed...

orrrrrrrrr

legalise the stuff and have those growing it sell it to the govt and become tax paying citizens. Perhaps they'll expand their operation to veggies and other produce? Nooooo, sorry, WTF was I thinking, much better to keep them unemployed and lock them up when they get caught. Damn what an enlightened age we live in. I can here it now, but but but, but it'll be political suicide because as we've sold the people, and they have swallowed it (hook line and knee jerk), the image of a beneficiary being a drug takin' thievin' system sucking scumbag... how can we turn that around without losing votes.


Turn the entire population into mumbling mushbrained reefer smokers?
Trying to bring us all down to your level?

[Fast Eddie]

an unobjective, pointless retort from someone whose opinion apparently isn't worth putting words to.

haha, you can critique yourself so well, and so accurately. Keep it up :)

[imdying]

youve got too much time on your hands if youre mixing with stoned "creative and interesting people" :blink:I mix with stoners who're creative and interesting, drinkers who match that description, and people who abstain who also match... makes no difference to me. But the bottom line is for me... if the portion of my tax that goes to pay beneficiaries was returned to my pocket, it would provide me so much less in the way of benefits to me that I'm more than happy to pay it.

I've also met people who don't pay tax, but don't collect a benefit either, who've had a similar affect on my life... I don't begrudge them because they occasionally use public facilities such as roads that they don't contribute to either. Why should I? Because your narrow mind says I should?? Because the government says I should??? Because Jesus tells me I should???? You're the ones missing out, and as sad as that is, that's your personal choice and whilst I don't agree with it, I'll fight for that too.

[skippa1]

:crybaby: waaa waaaa waaaa I can't think of a better way to learn those bastards, they're spending the money they receive on things that they want but I don't want them to spend their money on the things they want, waaa waaaa :crybaby:... I feel exactly the same way about the govt most of the time! So sure, let's punish everyone on the dole because of a small percentage who take the piss, yes, remove their freedom now, NONE of them have deserved it and therefore we should implement any number of costly schemes to cut them off from their only money supply and hope that they don't cause a fuss as they try to recooup their losses, after all it's their own fault for being unemployed...

orrrrrrrrr

legalise the stuff and have those growing it sell it to the govt and become tax paying citizens. Perhaps they'll expand their operation to veggies and other produce? Nooooo, sorry, WTF was I thinking, much better to keep them unemployed and lock them up when they get caught. Damn what an enlightened age we live in. I can here it now, but but but, but it'll be political suicide because as we've sold the people, and they have swallowed it (hook line and knee jerk), the image of a beneficiary being a drug takin' thievin' system sucking scumbag... how can we turn that around without losing votes.

what a load of twaddle.:shutup: Spoken like a true drug addled philosopher. They have no respect for those that help them, they could grow veges now and they dont, so you think that getting stoned is going to motivate them to garden? Fuuck off. My experience of stoners is that they cant even get motivated enough to get off the couch. And as for small percentage??? look at the unemployment stats and the number of drop kicks hanging around shopping malls. Legilisation will do nothing for those of us that work for a living and support these stoners except give more of them an excuse to do what they want at our expense. Harden the fuck up and stop encouraging them:blink:

[imdying]

Turn the entire population into mumbling mushbrained reefer smokers?
Trying to bring us all down to your level?Down to? That you think that there are levels based on something as trivial as that is truly saddening.

[oneofsix]

Turn the entire population into mumbling mushbrained reefer smokers?
Trying to bring us all down to your level?

Looks like Mashman needs that sarcasm/irony emoticon.

[bogan]

Alright, bigger picture solution, unemployed are now applying for so many jobs it makes it hard for employers to do the initial screening. Past employment performance is also hard to access. How about creating a website to keep track of the 'bludgers' and their activities relating to trying to find work. Add other nefarious activities like failing or not taking drug tests, or having kids. And we could call it FaceBludger :innocent:

[Fast Eddie]

My experience of stoners is that they cant even get motivated enough to get off the couch. Harden the fuck up and stop encouraging them:blink:

haha...

I succesfully moved from couch, to computer chair, back to couch.. then back to computer today.

so thank you very much, we can do it if we try.

[imdying]

They have no respect for those that help them, they could grow veges now and they dont, so you think that getting stoned is going to motivate them to garden? Fuuck off. My experience of stoners is that they cant even get motivated enough to get off the couch. And as for small percentage??? look at the unemployment stats and the number of drop kicks hanging around shopping malls. Legilisation will do nothing for those of us that work for a living and support these stoners except give more of them an excuse to do what they want at our expense.Some of them do, some grow veges for all their friends families too. Some of them create art, and donate it to public spaces, some even auction their work for charity. Some have built some of the most sophisticated systems in their chosen fields that I've ever seen. You're confused about smoking weed and abusing weed... that and a bit narrow minded, but such is the many shades of life.

[ducatilover]

Alright, bigger picture solution, unemployed are now applying for so many jobs it makes it hard for employers to do the initial screening. Past employment performance is also hard to access. How about creating a website to keep track of the 'bludgers' and their activities relating to trying to find work. Add other nefarious activities like failing or not taking drug tests, or having kids. And we could call it FaceBludger :innocent:

You wana bludgeon 'em?

[bogan]

You wana bludgeon 'em?

Maybe tax payers could earn points they can spend on bludgeoning who they choose; but this time, you could also exchange those points for pies, made by the bludgers with talent, win-win isn't it!

[oneofsix]

Alright, bigger picture solution, unemployed are now applying for so many jobs it makes it hard for employers to do the initial screening. Past employment performance is also hard to access. How about creating a website to keep track of the 'bludgers' and their activities relating to trying to find work. Add other nefarious activities like failing or not taking drug tests, or having kids. And we could call it FaceBludger :innocent:

Where is the advantage in that? Presently the solution is to use employment consultants to whittle down the applicants before they get to the employer. This creates new jobs for consultant type peoples without producing anything useful for the country. Win Win, right?

[ducatilover]

Maybe tax payers could earn points they can spend on bludgeoning who they choose; but this time, you could also exchange those points for pies, made by the bludgers with talent, win-win isn't it!

VOTE FOR BOGAN! :Punk:

[skippa1]

Some of them do, some grow veges for all their friends families too. Some of them create art, and donate it to public spaces, some even auction their work for charity. Some have built some of the most sophisticated systems in their chosen fields that I've ever seen. You're confused about smoking weed and abusing weed... that and a bit narrow minded, but such is the many shades of life.

pray tell what percentage of the unemployed population create this mass of art? By the way, dont believe everything the switched on gardner tells you, theyre not tomatoes.
You mention those that have excelled in the chosen profesion, I speak only about those that I sponsor, I dont give a fuck about those that smoke drugs and work(not at the same time mind you). As long as they dont harm anyone or put them at risk at work I dont care about them.
In my view, those that are unemployed sitting at home smoking weed at my cost are abusing it because they dont have the right to make that choice at the communities cost.
By the way, I have seen some of the art and it is impressive, wouldnt want it on my building but hey, if you dont give a fuck and it enhances your life experience all good, get them to do your building.

[oneofsix]

VOTE FOR BOGAN! :Punk:

Your self employed role isn't going to be a baker I hope or do we call you Mr Todd? :shifty:

[bogan]

Where is the advantage in that? Presently the solution is to use employment consultants to whittle down the applicants before they get to the employer. This creates new jobs for consultant type peoples without producing anything useful for the country. Win Win, right?

Well if it is something that can very easily be done via facebludger, aren't people paying the consultants to do fuck all? Isn't that what has people annoyed in the first place, paying bludgers to do fuck all?

Creating jobs is bullshit, creating/increasing production is a worthy goal but harder to measure. Using the consultants as an example, you have market driven competition between them and the fictional automated facebludger service, the viability of the consultants depends on them providing a better service (and therefor increasing production) to buisnesses; if they don't, does it matter whther they are paid dircetly from buisnesses for doing the work, or through the dole for doing fuck all.

The bludger argument often comes down to a narrow scope which assumes that forcing them to work will benefit the economy. Benefits will only be realised if they are put to work in the right sort of jobs. BTW, I'm not some 'bludger' sympathizer, and I reckon sterilization of long term beneficiaries should be mandatory.

[ducatilover]

Your self employed role isn't going to be a baker I hope or do we call you Mr Todd? :shifty:

I'm going to manufacture methamphetamine and sell it to rich kids :sunny:

[imdying]

pray tell what percentage of the unemployed population create this mass of art?If you're expecting every sector of society to contribute equally or at all, then you're only setting yourself up for a life of disappointment. I mean, I likely pay more in tax than you even make in a year, does that give me the right to tell you when and where about anything?

[oneofsix]

I'm going to manufacture methamphetamine and sell it to rich kids :sunny:

good luck with that. a great way to get the trickle down flowing. :yes:

[ducatilover]

good luck with that. a great way to get the trickle down flowing. :yes:

Thanks mate, interested in buying some lamingtons?

[Oscar]

Down to? That you think that there are levels based on something as trivial as that is truly saddening.

I was thinking some sort of slug or mollusc kinda thing...

[Gremlin]

It's much easier than this. Do not pay a benefit at all, into their bank account.

They would receive x amount (but not actually receive any money). Their rent is dealt with automatically, same with essentials like power and water. For food, an account is available at the local supermarket, restricted to non-luxury items (ie, no alcohol, cigarettes etc). The govt should receive good pricing from the supermarket because of the bulk buying and customer base. Accounts could easily be setup for various requirements, but naturally you'd have one supplier per requirement, not every single supplier. Completely possible a small amount is supplied for discretionary reasons, but all the staples are taken care of.

Too many have forgotten that a benefit is to help you get back onto your feet when you experience some hardship. The money comes from those that are working. It is not your right to do whatever you like with that money. If you want choice, earn your own money. In the old days, if you kept sponging off everyone's goodwill without contributing, you'd be run out of town.

[Oscar]

Looks like Mashman needs that sarcasm/irony emoticon.

See above - those sort of complex emotions are several million years in the future for his species...

[skippa1]

I mean, I likely pay more in tax than you even make in a year, does that give me the right to tell you when and where about anything?

I wouldnt be so sure of myself about that if I were you....of course your penis is far bigger than mine. Im not getting into a pissing competition about income but I sit nicely in the upper 10% thanks very much so my tax contribution is more than sufficient.
and yes, the tax payer does have a right to tell the government what we expect. And in this case they have listened and see merit in the whole idea.

Dont trip over your dick:motu:

[skippa1]

It's much easier than this. Do not pay a benefit at all, into their bank account.

They would receive x amount (but not actually receive any money). Their rent is dealt with automatically, same with essentials like power and water. For food, an account is available at the local supermarket, restricted to non-luxury items (ie, no alcohol, cigarettes etc). The govt should receive good pricing from the supermarket because of the bulk buying and customer base. Accounts could easily be setup for various requirements, but naturally you'd have one supplier per requirement, not every single supplier. Completely possible a small amount is supplied for discretionary reasons, but all the staples are taken care of.

Too many have forgotten that a benefit is to help you get back onto your feet when you experience some hardship. The money comes from those that are working. It is not your right to do whatever you like with that money. If you want choice, earn your own money. In the old days, if you kept sponging off everyone's goodwill without contributing, you'd be run out of town.
:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:2thumbsup :2thumbsup:wings::wings::wings::wings::wings:

[steve_t]

It's much easier than this. Do not pay a benefit at all, into their bank account.

They would receive x amount (but not actually receive any money). Their rent is dealt with automatically, same with essentials like power and water. For food, an account is available at the local supermarket, restricted to non-luxury items (ie, no alcohol, cigarettes etc). The govt should receive good pricing from the supermarket because of the bulk buying and customer base. Accounts could easily be setup for various requirements, but naturally you'd have one supplier per requirement, not every single supplier. Completely possible a small amount is supplied for discretionary reasons, but all the staples are taken care of.

Too many have forgotten that a benefit is to help you get back onto your feet when you experience some hardship. The money comes from those that are working. It is not your right to do whatever you like with that money. If you want choice, earn your own money. In the old days, if you kept sponging off everyone's goodwill without contributing, you'd be run out of town.

+1

I think they're already starting to do this with eftpos-type cards for some benefits. No doubt, someone will find a way around the system - eg trade baby food and nappies for cigarettes and booze, but it's a good start! :niceone:

[ducatilover]

It's much easier than this. Do not pay a benefit at all, into their bank account.

They would receive x amount (but not actually receive any money). Their rent is dealt with automatically, same with essentials like power and water. For food, an account is available at the local supermarket, restricted to non-luxury items (ie, no alcohol, cigarettes etc). The govt should receive good pricing from the supermarket because of the bulk buying and customer base. Accounts could easily be setup for various requirements, but naturally you'd have one supplier per requirement, not every single supplier. Completely possible a small amount is supplied for discretionary reasons, but all the staples are taken care of.

Too many have forgotten that a benefit is to help you get back onto your feet when you experience some hardship. The money comes from those that are working. It is not your right to do whatever you like with that money. If you want choice, earn your own money. In the old days, if you kept sponging off everyone's goodwill without contributing, you'd be run out of town.

A grand idea.
Also, some of the beneficiaries could be employed to set this up? Maybe.

[sidecar bob]

Just remember folks. Its not called Dumbsmoke for nothing.

[bogan]

It's much easier than this. Do not pay a benefit at all, into their bank account.

They would receive x amount (but not actually receive any money). Their rent is dealt with automatically, same with essentials like power and water. For food, an account is available at the local supermarket, restricted to non-luxury items (ie, no alcohol, cigarettes etc). The govt should receive good pricing from the supermarket because of the bulk buying and customer base. Accounts could easily be setup for various requirements, but naturally you'd have one supplier per requirement, not every single supplier. Completely possible a small amount is supplied for discretionary reasons, but all the staples are taken care of.

Too many have forgotten that a benefit is to help you get back onto your feet when you experience some hardship. The money comes from those that are working. It is not your right to do whatever you like with that money. If you want choice, earn your own money. In the old days, if you kept sponging off everyone's goodwill without contributing, you'd be run out of town.

Why stop there, how about avoid the supermarket entirely, and do beneficiary run soup kitchens. I guess you'd have to move a few of them so they were all local, but thats good cos it would save on transportation costs too. And I hear weed makes a few of them imbecilic, so maybe put a fence around the whole area so they don't wander off :shutup:

[imdying]

Just remember folks. Its not called Dumbsmoke for nothing.Was John Britten dumb?

[Fast Eddie]

....of course your penis is far bigger than mine. Im not getting into a pissing competition about income but I sit nicely in the upper 10% (of large egos - Ed) thanks very much so my tax contribution is more than sufficient.


haha, not to blow your own horn or anything :)

(oh and its widely believed, by me, that those who earn the most.. tend to pay the least tax.. with all their little tricks and tips to keep the pockets full.. money in off shore accounts or trusts or under other names.. paying yourself very little on paper and so on. or am I just making that up)

further edit.. scratch that, income tax is unavoidable really.. its more the business/self employed that probably have those crafty tricks

[Fast Eddie]

Was John Britten dumb?

Is Ducati built in Sydney?

[onearmedbandit]

Just remember folks. Its not called Dumbsmoke for nothing.

First time I've heard it called that myself. And don't forget this either, there are people far more successful, smarter and richer than you are who smoke marijuana. And I don't even need to know anything about you to make that statement.

[skippa1]

haha, not to blow your own horn or anything :)

(oh and its widely believed, by me, that those who earn the most.. tend to pay the least tax.. with all their little tricks and tips to keep the pockets full.. money in off shore accounts or trusts or under other names.. paying yourself very little on paper and so on. or am I just making that up)

well I guess he asked for some sort of response with the "I pay more tax than you earn in a year" statement. As for not payin tax....off shore acounts etc. Thats for the really wealthy, the Fay, Richwhite, Hart type of people. Us salary earners just stump up on the PAYE system

[Fast Eddie]

Just remember folks. Its not called Dumbsmoke for nothing.

haha... its just not called that at all. Not by normal folk :D

[Fast Eddie]

well I guess he asked for some sort of response with the "I pay more tax than you earn in a year" statement. As for not payin tax....off shore acounts etc. Thats for the really wealthy, the Fay, Richwhite, Hart type of people. Us salary earners just stump up on the PAYE system

yea took me a while to think about income tax versus big business accounts..

I just dream about lotto.. like everyone else ;)

[skippa1]

First time I've heard it called that myself. And don't forget this either, there are people far more successful, smarter and richer than you are who smoke marijuana. And I don't even need to know anything about you to make that statement.

its not about who is smarter. The thread is about those that are on the dole and rollup paying with your tax money......hold on, it is about who is smarter...... at the moment anyway. The government just want to level the field a bit

[Fast Eddie]

The thread is about those that are on the dole and rollup paying with your tax money...

ahh yes, uni students.. the future :D

[onearmedbandit]

its not about who is smarter. The thread is about those that are on the dole and rollup paying with your tax money......hold on, it is about who is smarter...... at the moment anyway. The government just want to level the field a bit

I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to sidecar bob's statement. Hence the quote.

[mashman]

Turn the entire population into mumbling mushbrained reefer smokers?
Trying to bring us all down to your level?

Aye, coz that's what happens.
I see no reason why not if your level is the alternative.


what a load of twaddle.:shutup: Spoken like a true drug addled philosopher. They have no respect for those that help them, they could grow veges now and they dont, so you think that getting stoned is going to motivate them to garden? Fuuck off. My experience of stoners is that they cant even get motivated enough to get off the couch. And as for small percentage??? look at the unemployment stats and the number of drop kicks hanging around shopping malls. Legilisation will do nothing for those of us that work for a living and support these stoners except give more of them an excuse to do what they want at our expense. Harden the fuck up and stop encouraging them:blink:

I'll take drug addled philosopher over being one eyed and narrow of mind! By your rationale those who are hanging around the shopping malls can't be stoners as they're not on the couch. Legalisation will bring in more tax revenue, will boost tourism, will open the doors for medical research, will stop money from going directly into the hands of gangs and likely many many more benefits... and if the only downside is that people who already get stoned keep getting stoned, then I'm all for it. Saying that everyone will just get wasted and will do fuck all is displaying an attitude of complete ignorance, plenty of us have exceptionally fast motorcycles, yet most of the time they're ridden with common sense, could you apply the same attitude to having a toke? Or would you rather just swallow the bullshit and rely and a biased experience? Don't get me wrong, I've seen the good and bad sides of drug use, but more often than not it's just someone being an abusive dick and I see them all the fuckin time, straight and sober. What's their excuse?

[skippa1]

I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to sidecar bob's statement. Hence the quote.

fair call:yes:

[skippa1]

Aye, coz that's what happens.
I see no reason why not if your level is the alternative.



I'll take drug addled philosopher over being one eyed and narrow of mind! By your rationale those who are hanging around the shopping malls can't be stoners as they're not on the couch. Legalisation will bring in more tax revenue, will boost tourism, will open the doors for medical research, will stop money from going directly into the hands of gangs and likely many many more benefits... and if the only downside is that people who already get stoned keep getting stoned, then I'm all for it. Saying that everyone will just get wasted and will do fuck all is displaying an attitude of complete ignorance, plenty of us have exceptionally fast motorcycles, yet most of the time they're ridden with common sense, could you apply the same attitude to having a toke? Or would you rather just swallow the bullshit and rely and a biased experience? Don't get me wrong, I've seen the good and bad sides of drug use, but more often than not it's just someone being an abusive dick and I see them all the fuckin time, straight and sober. What's their excuse?

ahhh but you see the mind is not that narrow, I know surgeons and high level buisnessmen that smoke after hours and I dont have an issue with that.They work, they contribute they have purpose and are productive. Thats fine. But its not fine if I pay tax that pays benefits for those that spend that money on getting high. Thats not narrow minded, thats just fair. I never said everyone will just get wasted and do fuck all, I said I dont like my tax money paying for those that are unemployed and getting a benefit spending the money getting high. I would equally have a problem if beneficiaries got their benefit and spent it on going to see strippers, massage parlours, TAB, fats cars etc. The benefit is there for those that acnnot afford to buy food or pay the rent, not to provide entertainment.

In regard to legilisation which is a totally different subject, it used to work in Amsterdam, interestingly the dutch government feel they have created a problem and are now looking at a reversal of the current situation. Tourisim???? Seriously, you want to attract people to New Zealand to take drugs???:blink: Fuck:blink: Really????:blink:Thats where you see our future?:blink:Fuck:facepalm:

[sidecar bob]

Was John Britten dumb?

I read the book, in some areas id say extremely so.
Paticularly in the area of social interaction & what he deemed to be normal behaviour towards others.

[sidecar bob]

First time I've heard it called that myself. And don't forget this either, there are people far more successful, smarter and richer than you are who smoke marijuana. And I don't even need to know anything about you to make that statement.

Im quite confident there is & fully agree with you.
There's also a pile more shit kickers who cant even work out where this week's rent is going to come from that smoke it too.
I read in the Herald today that a 23 year old is going to face a firing squad in Abu Dahbi for being in possesion of 20 grams of Cannabis. Richest country in the world, shoot the drug users? I rekon those guys might be onto something.

[avgas]

Thing beneficiaries need to learn is we all whore ourselves out at one point.
You could be a working whore - doing a pointless job your not really interested in.
You could be a genuine whore - making money the non-legitimate way, usually while not having a good time.
Or
You can be a benefit whore - where someone gives you money, and all you have to do is stay off drugs.

Conclusion : We are all whores
(translation - you can't have your lunch and eat it too, you have to pay somewhere)

[onearmedbandit]

Im quite confident there is & fully agree with you.
There's also a pile more shit kickers who cant even work out where this week's rent is going to come from that smoke it too.

Yup agreed 100%. Same for some of those that drink alcohol as well. And some who smoke cigarettes. And some that take more enjoyment out of cruising in their car than paying the rent. The list could go on. The 'abused substance' changes, but not the type of person.

[tigertim20]

fucked if I can be bothered reading 8 pages of rambling, but my view.

Its long overdue. for several reasons.
1. If you can afford to buy novelty items like drugs, you arent that hard up, and you obviously dont need a benefit.
2. If many people who actually have to get out of bed and earn a living sometimes have to take drug tests, then why shouldnt those who get money for free have to do the same tests?

there will always be the bleeding hearts that say oh, but what if they have a drug problem etc etc, well, I have an argument for that too.
If you have someone on the benefit who has a genuine drug problem, isnt it best that we assist them with that problem?
We certainly cant help them if we dont know they have a problem in the first place can we?
Its a fact supported by multiple studies that it is those in the lower socio-economic bracket are more likely to be using, or have a problem with, drugs. So it makes sense to target these people, the same way most agree it makes sense to target women of a certain age for breast screening based on the age ranges which are most at risk - we currently have programs for that, as well as several other programs for other illnesses, disorders and various forms of sickness/poor health.

If someone is having trouble finding work, I feel for them, I was unemployed for a while, I got depressed as fuck, I was looking every day, and I am sure many of the unemployed are actively seeking work too, and I dont see a problem with helping people out if they need a hand, but at the end of the day, I work my fucking ass off for a living, currently working a heavy, physical job, sometimes 12-14 hour days, and most weeks, I cannot afford to buy a bottle of whiskey as a treat for myself because the bills need to be paid first, so the cunts that can afford to buy drugs, get pissed every night, smoke 3 packets of smokes a week can get fucked - they are living a life where they are able to afford novelties I cannot afford, so they obviously dont need any financial help.

[SMOKEU]

Why should either be tax payer funded?

Exactly.


You are quick to point out who you "would much rather fund" but do you actually fund anything at all, or are you a dole bludger?
The reason I am on the internet during the middle of the day is that I am the boss/ owner of a company, not because im unemployed.

I'm not on the dole, I'm a student. At least I'm trying to do something productive and make something of myself.

[mashman]

ahhh but you see the mind is not that narrow, I know surgeons and high level buisnessmen that smoke after hours and I dont have an issue with that.They work, they contribute they have purpose and are productive. Thats fine. But its not fine if I pay tax that pays benefits for those that spend that money on getting high. Thats not narrow minded, thats just fair. I never said everyone will just get wasted and do fuck all, I said I dont like my tax money paying for those that are unemployed and getting a benefit spending the money getting high. I would equally have a problem if beneficiaries got their benefit and spent it on going to see strippers, massage parlours, TAB, fats cars etc. The benefit is there for those that acnnot afford to buy food or pay the rent, not to provide entertainment.

In regard to legilisation which is a totally different subject, it used to work in Amsterdam, interestingly the dutch government feel they have created a problem and are now looking at a reversal of the current situation. Tourisim???? Seriously, you want to attract people to New Zealand to take drugs???:blink: Fuck:blink: Really????:blink:Thats where you see our future?:blink:Fuck:facepalm:

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much... so what you're saying is that it's ok as long as you have an acceptable social status. The FACT that there aren't enough jobs doesn't factor, the FACT that a large percentage of bene's aren't long term bene's doesn't factor (12,000 from recent reading are, how many are unemployed?), the FACT that some people have to be unemployed to help to keep inflation at bay doesn't factor, the FACT that these many Bene's are likely more intelligent than you doesn't factor, the FACT that plenty of Bene's were once high earners who can't get back into the workforce because of wage requirements doesn't factor, the FACT that plenty of these dumbfucks are likely highly intelligent doesn't factor, possibly plenty more facts that you won't allow to get in the way of a good story... and all to target a minority who spend the money they receive in a way they choose to? Doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that the mind is any wider than a japs eye. How dare they try to entertain themselves :facepalm:

...and Portugal went fully legal and drug abuse/use has dropped. As for Amsterdam, tis hardly surprising given that it's as cheap as chips to get there and it services the Entire European community. Funny thing is, from my experiences of Amsterdam, it was the piss 'eads causing all of the trouble. Yes I do want to attract tourists based on a drug policy... rather that than people out on the piss. It's 1 part of a future that I'd hope for this country, but it would seem that some of you need to grow up a bit first and stop being so precious.

[tigertim20]

Exactly.



I'm not on the dole, I'm a student. At least I'm trying to do something productive and make something of myself.

Student allowance?
its still a benefit and should be tested as equally as any other benefit.

[SMOKEU]

Student allowance?
its still a benefit and should be tested as equally as any other benefit.

Yes for the student allowance, but I'm not at home all day smoking buds or out causing shit, or getting bitches knocked up. Once I get my diploma I plan on paying it all back + interest in the form of taxes. I don't plan on being a student for the rest of my life, and I should be qualified by the end of next year.

[Kickaha]

Student allowance?
its still a benefit and should be tested as equally as any other benefit.

Better test that Fast Eddie cunt as well while they're at it

[mashman]

Achually, I've changed my mind. Bring it in. It will be highly entertaining :yes:

[flyingcrocodile46]

Simply put, If it's good enough for the real taxpayers (i.e those who pay for the income received by beneficiaries and the tax which they laughingly claim that THEY pay:facepalm:) then it damn sure is good enough for those receiving benefits.

Frankly I wouldn't mind if it cost a little more for the peace of mind of knowing that it is less likely that my taxes will be subsidising the purchase of drugs from the local dealer.

A decrease in demand should see prices come down.:msn-wink:

[kiwi cowboy]

youve got too much time on your hands if youre mixing with stoned "creative and interesting people" :blink:

maybe when he's stoned there all creative and interesting.

[tigertim20]

Yes for the student allowance, but I'm not at home all day smoking buds or out causing shit, or getting bitches knocked up. Once I get my diploma I plan on paying it all back + interest in the form of taxes. I don't plan on being a student for the rest of my life, and I should be qualified by the end of next year.
glad to hear it, sometimes you market yourself as someone who might sit at home smoking buds!
whats your diploma in?

Better test that Fast Eddie cunt as well while they're at it

Hmm, good idea, if we find he fails the test, I will seize his bikes under the proceeds of crime act - Im keen on the smoker, you want a sidecar thingeemebob or a blade?

[Akzle]

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug out there.
alcohol isn't actually a drug. it's a neuro-toxin. the "effects" you feel is your body fighting the toxin.
similar symptoms can be achieved with malaria, meningitis, or snake bites, scorpion stings etc.


Why should either be tax payer funded?
why should anyone be taxed?


those that get the biggest handouts from tax "payers" are politicians.
unemployment pays 160$/week, (less than 10k$/pa) then everything purchased is pre-taxed.
while shit-for brains back benchers (name one, go on...) start on 50-60k with perks like free travel, tax deductable "working" holidays, and an expenditure account.

[Flip]

There always have been and there will always be dope smoking loosers.

I don't see what all the anxt is about?

[Big Dave]

Anxt - what Hitler did to the Sudetenland.

[Flip]

Anxt- what dope does to your brain.

[Big Dave]

:-)

<tenchars> </tenchars>

[Madness]

Anxt- what dope does to my brain.

Speak for yourself, sonny!

[skippa1]

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much... so what you're saying is that it's ok as long as you have an acceptable social status. The FACT that there aren't enough jobs doesn't factor, so that excuses using tax payer money for drugs?

the FACT that a large percentage of bene's aren't long term bene's doesn't factor (12,000 from recent reading are, how many are unemployed?), again, a valid reason to spend tax payer money on drugs?
the FACT that some people have to be unemployed to help to keep inflation at bay doesn't factor, ahhh the reason for spending tax payer money, I dont think so,
the FACT that these many Bene's are likely more intelligent than you doesn't factor,you base ths "fact" on what exactly?
the FACT that plenty of Bene's were once high earners who can't get back into the workforce because of wage requirements doesn't factor, again, based on what fact?,
the FACT that plenty of these dumbfucks are likely highly intelligent doesn't factor, not even sure what you are saying here,
possibly plenty more facts that you won't allow to get in the way of a good story... I havent seen any facts yet, just a whole lot of twisted supposition based on your need to convince others that smoking pot is an acceptable use of tax payer money
and all to target a minority who spend the money they receive in a way they choose to? actually, its not "the" money, its tax payer money. Tax payer money.
Doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that the mind is any wider than a japs eye. How dare they try to entertain themselves :facepalm:
Yes, how dare they spend tax payer money on entertaining themselves with an illegal pastime

...and Portugal went fully legal and drug abuse/use has dropped. As for Amsterdam, tis hardly surprising given that it's as cheap as chips to get there and it services the Entire European community. Funny thing is, from my experiences of Amsterdam, it was the piss 'eads causing all of the trouble. Yes I do want to attract tourists based on a drug policy... rather that than people out on the piss. It's 1 part of a future that I'd hope for this country, but it would seem that some of you need to grow up a bit first and stop being so precious.

And then you come with the same old excuse that always come up, piss is worse than pot. Guess what Einstein, the whole thread is about spending tax payer money on drugs. Not what you think the worse of two evils are, which is totally irrelevant.

[nodrog]

Only users lose drugs.

[Big Dave]

Only users lose drugs.

But it's OK - they don't remember.

[blue rider]

Before any money gets spend on treating all "welfare recipients" as criminals, I would like to finally see some programme propoesed by the current government that actually generates jobs with livable wages. That would actually reduce the number of welfare dependents.

Seriously are we so full of envy and discontent that some schmuck from the government can sell us our neighbors, family members, colleagues etc as drug abusing criminals that need to be tested before they can apply for a benefit, should they need help?

What a sorry state of the nation.

[onearmedbandit]

And then you cose with the same old excuse that always come up, piss is worse than pot. Guess what Einstein, the whole thread is about spending tax payer money on drugs. Not what you think the worse of two evils are, which is totally irrelevant.

Why isn't it also about those that use their dole money to buy alcohol? Yes I realise it's not the issue at hand. But why not? Sure it could be considered to hard to test for, maybe you should only be able to buy alcohol if you have a valid 'employed' card.

[MIXONE]

i work fulltime and I still can't afford drugs.

[blue rider]

Why isn't it also about those that use their dole money to buy alcohol? Yes I realise it's not the issue at hand. But why not? Sure it could be considered to hard to test for, maybe you should only be able to buy alcohol if you have a valid 'employed' card.

employed card is not good enough. it needs to show that you actually has paid tax.
after all we are being sold this little programme to prevent abuse of taxpayers money.

so the card one needs to buy alcohol, any type of entertainment, fatty foods, and cigarettes is a "has paid tax" card.

[skippa1]

Why isn't it also about those that use their dole money to buy alcohol? Yes I realise it's not the issue at hand. But why not? Sure it could be considered to hard to test for, maybe you should only be able to buy alcohol if you have a valid 'employed' card.

actually, I agree entirely. There are some luxuries that should be excluded for those getting tax payer funded help. In actual fact, I think that the dole is not high enough to help when you consider that $160/wk isnt going to cover rent let alone food etc. If there were less people abusing the system we could raise the available allowance for the genuine needy.

[mashman]

And then you cose with the same old excuse that always come up, piss is worse than pot. Guess what Einstein, the whole thread is about spending tax payer money on drugs. Not what you think the worse of two evils are, which is totally irrelevant.

Your right. It's about those receiving tax payers money deciding what they wish to spend it on. I spent 6 years in a place in Glasgow, now removed from the face of the planet, and these people aren't stupid by any means, there's some amongst them who were relatively well off and "saw the light", not all took drugs (more booze) by any means and that wasn't through lack of cash either. If they're buying booze with their benefit then buying weed is from the same expenditure. You brought up Amsterdam and its problems and I said they were, in my observations, caused mainly by those on the piss... that was the only equating of drugs v booze I made, so you started it :bleh:

As I said before, I've changed my mind, I can't wait for the bill to go through... then I'll sit back and watch you Einsteins moan and whinge about those who have been cut off committing crimes and adding 80k per person to the tax bill when they end up inside. Not doubt a few folk will get hurt along the way, but it'll be worth it eh :niceone:

[Ocean1]

then I'll sit back and watch you Einsteins moan and whinge about those who have been cut off committing crimes and adding 80k per person to the tax bill when they end up inside.

Pay someone $80K to not steal from me?

Don't think a few rounds of 12swg costs that much, does it?

[mashman]

employed card is not good enough. it needs to show that you actually has paid tax.
after all we are being sold this little programme to prevent abuse of taxpayers money.

so the card one needs to buy alcohol, any type of entertainment, fatty foods, and cigarettes is a "has paid tax" card.

No. Still not good enough. You must be able to prove that you have been a net tax contributor for the last year.

[skippa1]

Before any money gets spend on treating all "welfare recipients" as criminals, I would like to finally see some programme propoesed by the current government that actually generates jobs with livable wages. That would actually reduce the number of welfare dependents.

Seriously are we so full of envy and discontent that some schmuck from the government can sell us our neighbors, family members, colleagues etc as drug abusing criminals that need to be tested before they can apply for a benefit, should they need help?

What a sorry state of the nation.

Sorry but that doesnt wash. We are advertising overseas to employ up to 25-30,000 staff required for the Chch rebuild and our own countrymen cant pass a drug test to fill the vacancies. Theoretically we shouldnt have any unemployed.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7008132/Employers-struggle-to-fill-jobs
we complain about immigration and immigrants, they end up buying businesses, thriving and making their families wealthy.......

[mashman]

Pay someone $80K to not steal from me?

Don't think a few rounds of 12swg costs that much, does it?

heh... not at all, just leave things the way they are and dodge that bullet.

No doubt some would be deserving of such treatment, in fact someone once mentioned that shooting the exceptionally rich would free up more % than shooting 1000 bene's and there's already too many chiefs... no doubt that'll be seen as jealousy by some, coz dey is tick, but it's business mate, not personal. Your plan has merit :niceone:

[Brian d marge]

Cant you see through the bull, demonize one group makes another group feel good
Been done a few times before
Wonder what they are trying to sneak through with out the great unwashed getting bent out of shape

Viva the revolution ..I cant wait

Stephen

[Ocean1]

Your plan has merit :niceone:

It's not a plan.

It's full blown operational policy hereabouts.

[skippa1]

As I said before, I've changed my mind, I can't wait for the bill to go through... then I'll sit back and watch you Einsteins moan and whinge about those who have been cut off committing crimes and adding 80k per person to the tax bill when they end up inside. Not doubt a few folk will get hurt along the way, but it'll be worth it eh :niceone:

you fix your bike when its broken? how about your car? If you have a broken arm you get it fixed. If you do what you always do, you get what youve always got..........what about proactively securing a future for the country instead of justifying the behaviour of leaches?

I wonder, if a stoner arrived at your house every week with his hand out for the tax that you pay and does it every week, then he goes and spends it getting out of it while you work............would you start to resent him for coimng around and taking your money after a while? Are you seriousy telling me you would be happy with that and justifying it because you were concerned about what he might do if you stop giving him the money?:blink:

[bogan]

Before any money gets spend on treating all "welfare recipients" as criminals, I would like to finally see some programme propoesed by the current government that actually generates jobs with livable wages. That would actually reduce the number of welfare dependents.

Seriously are we so full of envy and discontent that some schmuck from the government can sell us our neighbors, family members, colleagues etc as drug abusing criminals that need to be tested before they can apply for a benefit, should they need help?

What a sorry state of the nation.

Exactly, it must be tackled from both ends, stop the number of new dole recipients, but also create the environment to allow and encourage existing recipients to get work. Doesn't matter how big a stick is used, a square peg isn't going to fit in a round hole!

What are the penalties for failing an employment drug test anyway? Is there a fine? If it is just that they don't get the job, this plan is laughably stupid.

[ducatilover]

actually, I agree entirely. There are some luxuries that should be excluded for those getting tax payer funded help. In actual fact, I think that the dole is not high enough to help when you consider that $160/wk isnt going to cover rent let alone food etc. If there were less people abusing the system we could raise the available allowance for the genuine needy.

I cannot fathom how one can afford drugs in any "reasonable" amount on $160p/w.

[blue rider]

Sorry but that doesnt wash. We are advertising overseas to employ up to 25-30,000 staff required for the Chch rebuild and our own countrymen cant pass a drug test to fill the vacancies. Theoretically we shouldnt have any unemployed.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7008132/Employers-struggle-to-fill-jobs
we complain about immigration and immigrants, they end up buying businesses, thriving and making their families wealthy.......



have had a look at the article you linked to and low and behold

'The problem is that the skills gaps in New Zealand are very similar to the rest of the world - engineers and skilled tradespeople are in demand everywhere, so competition from the international market is also a factor,'' he said.

Difficulty in finding IT staff had also increased as the National Broadband Network was rolled out around the country.

Employers who continued to struggle with skills shortages may need to review their job criteria and look for a 'teachable fit' - that is, candidates who meet most criteria but need further training - or consider unbundling job roles so that highly skilled employees only undertake technical tasks, Crawley said.



this lack of talented and skilled people is not due to the fact that our talented and skilled are buggering off overseas in order to make a coin or two, because in this country they will hardly make enough to pay rent, food, student loan etc.

this lack of employable people has nothing to do with the fact that we expect people to go into debt to learn a trade and then hope they stay for the minimum wage +5 $, yea tui.

we have to decide as a nation if we want to go down the low wage 3rd world bucket or if we want something better.

businesses must take the risk and train young ones again, instead of burdening our young generation with a loan they need 10 years to pay back.
businesses must train and up skill their their staff instead of hiring and firing willy nilly in the relentless pursuit of a penny saved.

once businesses and government actually does something for the skilled and trained they might stay in NZ instead of running all the way to England/Oz/Canada or Asia to make a living.
But it appears that businesses in this time and age want skilled trained and cheap labour, and if they can't get it they whinge...! in the meantime New Zealanders who are working for a living, are paying tax, but need help to make end meets because all the fixed costs have gone up again, will have to get drug tested before they can get a housing benefit, or a heating benefit ...or some such thing.
And the recent un-employed that have faithfully paid tax, so that a social net is there should they need help, will have to get drug tested.
The young couple with kids, that need help with living expenses, leave your blood over there or else no help.

so full of awesomeness, i am slayed, and have run out of vocabulary....also. :facepalm:

[skippa1]

Before any money gets spend on treating all "welfare recipients" as criminals, I would like to finally see some programme propoesed by the current government that actually generates jobs with livable wages. That would actually reduce the number of welfare dependents.

Seriously are we so full of envy and discontent that some schmuck from the government can sell us our neighbors, family members, colleagues etc as drug abusing criminals that need to be tested before they can apply for a benefit, should they need help?

What a sorry state of the nation.

They had an earthquke in Christchurch and need between 25-30,000 extra workers. They pay more than the minimum wage which is more than the dole.

[bogan]

They had an earthquke in Christchurch and need between 25-30,000 extra workers. They pay more than the minimum wage which is more than the dole.

Not everyone has the skills, or lack of family commitments to make that option possible.

[mashman]

It's not a plan.

It's full blown operational policy hereabouts.

What are the rules?


you fix your bike when its broken? how about your car? If you have a broken arm you get it fixed. If you do what you always do, you get what youve always got..........what about proactively securing a future for the country instead of justifying the behaviour of leaches?

I wonder, if a stoner arrived at your house every week with his hand out for the tax that you pay and does it every week, then he goes and spends it getting out of it while you work............would you start to resent him for coimng around and taking your money after a while? Are you seriousy telling me you would be happy with that and justifying it because you were concerned about what he might do if you stop giving him the money?:blink:

I try to. I try to. I would indeed. I agree, to a degree, if nothing changes, nothing changes. I'm trying to do both and not all are leeches.

If the govt says it's ok for me to give my tax to a stoner, then sure, why not, tis what happens at the moment and I'm more than happy with it, in fact they should be paid more for the service they provide for you re: helping to keep inflation down and your $ worth the value it's worth. It's my choice to work. I work so that my kids can do stuff, netball, TKW, piano, get pressies for their mates on their birthdays etc... Where did extortion come into it? Anyhoo, I'd kill the person, if I thought I could get away with it, if he tried that on, stoner or not. Again, why would I resent giving someone a wedge of money that I'm already giving to another entity? If it's 10k a year and I get to keep the rest of my tax, send another few people around for the other 40/50k (year dependent). That and I wouldn't have to go out and score some blow as it would be brought to my doorstep.

[skippa1]

have had a look at the article you linked to and low and behold



businesses must take the risk and train young ones again, instead of burdening our young generation with a loan they need 10 years to pay back.
businesses must train and up skill their their staff instead of hiring and firing willy nilly in the relentless pursuit of a penny saved.

once businesses and government actually does something for the skilled and trained they might stay in NZ instead of running all the way to England/Oz/Canada or Asia to make a living.
But it appears that businesses in this time and age want skilled trained and cheap labour, and if they can't get it they whinge...! in the meantime New Zealanders who are working for a living, are paying tax, but need help to make end meets because all the fixed costs have gone up again, will have to get drug tested before they can get a housing benefit, or a heating benefit ...or some such thing.
And the recent un-employed that have faithfully paid tax, so that a social net is there should they need help, will have to get drug tested.
The young couple with kids, that need help with living expenses, leave your blood over there or else no help.

so full of awesomeness, i am slayed, and have run out of vocabulary....also. :facepalm:

thats one side of the coin, the other is the business side. I have tried to find drug free staff to carry out work on a permanant basis and I simply cant get a person that is unemployed and on a benefit to pass a drug test. I cant put people that are a risk in our business as they would pose a risk to the public. WINZ simply cannot send a person my way that can pass that test. I dont want trained or skilled labour, I would settle for straight. I would like nothing better than long term reliable staff.
Why the fuck shouldnt they be expected to be straight and ready for work?

[skippa1]

What are the rules?





If the govt says it's ok for me to give my tax to a stoner, then sure, why not, tis what happens at the moment and I'm more than happy with it,.

so when the government say that they should be tested first, you should be ok with that then. Good.

[skippa1]

Not everyone has the skills, or lack of family commitments to make that option possible.

of course they dont, not when they can stay home stoned:blink:

[placidfemme]

Ahhh... A great topic to stir up the trolls and narrow-minded amongst us. Like the good old days :yes:

I've read all 9 pages so far and boy don't the ignorant like to flaunt themselves unashamedly, so I might as well join the party and wave the flag of my opinion :shutup:

I have meet a huge range of people covering every possible aspect of society, but the one type I have not meet is the unemployed stoner on the benefit, given the stereo-type of the stoner, I have surprised myself by seriously thinking about it and not being able to name even one. I find it highly unfair that so many of you have had the apparent dis-pleasure of knowing MANY of these and I lack that experience. I have meet the criminal, the breeder, the alcoholic and the such. But every stoner I have meet has been employed and a functioning member of society. In my eyes pot is no worse than alcohol. Just like some people can have a beer and not smash the misses, some people can have a joint and not be whatever you deem to be a common stoner trait. Crimes related to alcohol are higher than crimes related to pot... go figure.

However, in saying that, if I can be legally tested for drugs as part of my contract, then how is it remotely unfair to test people on the benefit? For what it is worth I would love to see public reports of drug tests from those twats in government. If I am required to be drug free to get my pay packet why should this be different for someone on the dole? I really don't understand the reasoning of why anyone is against this. The "real" people in need, who are trying to find work, who are making the effort... Well, I highly doubt any of them would say no to a drug test, I reckon you will find the only people on the dole who would be offended at the request are the ones who know they take drugs and know they risk losing the dole because of this. I didn't go waving a "poor fucking me" flag when I saw the drug test clause in my contract, I didn't go shouting about my "rights", because frankly, if someone is giving me their money, I'll abide by the rules set out to ensure I can pay my bills and be a functioning member of society... but then on the same hand I'm not retarded enough to show up at work stoned/drunk, so as to give my employer reason to want to test me.

But lets face it, the real problem, we are not talking about pot or alcohol or any other drug (legal or not), what we are looking at is the "type" (insert racial, social or whatever ideology you have of anyone you deem to be lower standing than you), we are simply talking about the low life "I don't want a fucking job, society OWES me this" type person. And these are the only people who will object to a reasonable request to prove you will not be using the funds kindly given to you out of the pockets of every other average working Joe Blob, to buy such items that the Joe Blob him/herself cannot afford.

Yes, it costs money to test them, but everything costs money. We pay if we test them, we pay if we don't. So rather pay to test them, find the druggies (I'm not limited to pot, I'd love to see them test for P too), find the addicts, offer them assistance to rehab and start a healthy life, once they are earning money through a legitimate job, who gives a fuck what drugs they buy, because chances are they will have a drug testing clause in their contract too...

I don't know enough about the idea of legalizing it, in a general aspect, but as far as for medical purposes go I support this 100%.

[mashman]

Why the fuck shouldnt they be expected to be straight and ready for work?

Yet


I know surgeons and high level buisnessmen that smoke after hours and I dont have an issue with that

Who says they (potential employees with positive test) wouldn't be straight and ready for work?

[bogan]

of course they dont, not when they can stay home stoned:blink:

And how do you propose we ensure that they get skills that will give them a job at the end of it? Make dole life more miserable?

[blue rider]

thats one side of the coin, the other is the business side. I have tried to find drug free staff to carry out work on a permanant basis and I simply cant get a person that is unemployed and on a benefit to pass a drug test. I cant put people that are a risk in our business as they would pose a risk to the public. WINZ simply cannot send a person my way that can pass that test. I dont want trained or skilled labour, I would settle for straight. I would like nothing better than long term reliable staff.
Why the fuck shouldnt they be expected to be straight and ready for work?

what are you looking for? and why is a stoner more dangerous than a closet alcoholic.?
what are the drugs you want people tested for?

i am asking because I am curious,
Of the NZ'lers on welfare - how many are abusing the system. really how many? 5 % 10% 50%. Can i have a cost benefit analysis, or is it un-polite to ask?

[ducatilover]

They had an earthquke in Christchurch and need between 25-30,000 extra workers. They pay more than the minimum wage which is more than the dole.

I'd go down, if I didn't poo every time I thought of earthquakes. Certainly a huge earning potential down there and one would hope, if funding is available, unemployed people could be employed down there with on-the-job training or something of the sort.

[mashman]

so when the government say that they should be tested first, you should be ok with that then. Good.

What part of my post even came close to pointing to that as an outcome I'd desire? We were talking about a stoner coming to my house for his tax handout. You've said he's a stoner, I have no problem with that, why would I agree with a test, coz I don't.

[skippa1]

Yet



Who says they (potential employees with positive test) wouldn't be straight and ready for work?

as I have said before, if they are contributing(working and paying tax) and not posing a risk to others, I dont care, Im not paying for their habit.

[Brian d marge]

BTW , ive had a wonderful day at work drinking red wine and running a new component through, its tests....
,
Stephen .....

[Ocean1]

What are the rules?


Touch my stuff and I'll hurt you.

Touch my people and I'll kill you.

[skippa1]

What are the rules?



I try to. I try to. I would indeed. I agree, to a degree, if nothing changes, nothing changes. I'm trying to do both and not all are leeches.

If the govt says it's ok for me to give my tax to a stoner, then sure, why not, .


What part of my post even came close to pointing to that as an outcome I'd desire? We were talking about a stoner coming to my house for his tax handout. You've said he's a stoner, I have no problem with that, why would I agree with a test, coz I don't.

I thought you were happy to what the government says

[skippa1]

And how do you propose we ensure that they get skills that will give them a job at the end of it? Make dole life more miserable?

do our best to get them a job, the second part of an application these days is a drug test

[bogan]

do our best to get them a job, the second part of an application these days is a drug test

My god, you're a genius, the way to fix the benefit, is to get them jobs! :shit::pinch:


I think any solution will need to be a little more specific there bud.

[mashman]

as I have said before, if they are contributing(working and paying tax) and not posing a risk to others, I dont care, Im not paying for their habit.

but you are turning away people who have traces of a drug in their system irrespective of the type of smoker they are. Cake and eat it? or just not thought it through? or met them and thought they were lazy because the looked like it?


Touch my stuff and I'll hurt you.

Touch my people and I'll kill you.

Fair rules.


I thought you were happy to what the government says

Not at all... but I'm happy to see it come in to law.

[skippa1]

what are you looking for? and why is a stoner more dangerous than a closet alcoholic.?
what are the drugs you want people tested for?

i am asking because I am curious,
Of the NZ'lers on welfare - how many are abusing the system. really how many? 5 % 10% 50%. Can i have a cost benefit analysis, or is it un-polite to ask?

Truck drivers. I test for alcohol, P and cannabis

I had 10 come for interviews in one hit from WINZ. When told they were being drug tested, 8 walked, of the remaining 2, both were tested, one passed. Incidentally, the one that passed crashed his truck, did a post acident test and failed. Let me see, what percentage is that now.....????? Incidentally, would you be happy with your family on the road with a truck driver driving an 18 tonne truck stoned?

[skippa1]

but you are turning away people who have traces of a drug in their system irrespective of the type of smoker they are. Cake and eat it? or just not thought it through? or met them and thought they were lazy because the looked like it?

.

No, its thought through. I am turning them away because OH&S make me responsible for their actions whilst at work, to the point that I can be jailed if I negligently allow them to work with traces in their system and they kill someone. So fuck em

[bogan]

Truck drivers. I test for alcohol, P and cannabis

I had 10 come for interviews in one hit from WINZ. When told they were being drug tested, 8 walked, of the remaining 2, both were tested, one passed. Incidentally, the one that passed crashed his truck, did a post acident test and failed. Let me see, what percentage is that now.....????? Incidentally, would you be happy with your family on the road with a truck driver driving an 18 tonne truck stoned?

My Uncle is trying to get work as a truck driver, he says he gets turned away everywhere cos he doesn't have recent experience. He just did his forklift endorsement to try and get a foot in the door, a girl there had been offering to work for free to try and get experience and still had no luck!

Dunno how the job situation could be so different from here as to auckland.

BTW, my Uncle is pretty straight up, apart from being welsh. Just another job area where it's bloody hard to get work when you're new (like a lot of beneficiaries).

[skippa1]

My Uncle is trying to get work as a truck driver, he says he gets turned away everywhere cos he doesn't have recent experience. He just did his forklift endorsement to try and get a foot in the door, a girl there had been offering to work for free to try and get experience and still had no luck!

Dunno how the job situation could be so different from here as to auckland.

BTW, my Uncle is pretty straight up, apart from being welsh. Just another job area where it's bloody hard to get work when you're new (like a lot of beneficiaries).

yeah it can be different all over NZ. I have a full house at the moment but it changes from time to time. It sucks for those that are really trying

[mashman]

No, its thought through. I am turning them away because OH&S make me responsible for their actions whilst at work, to the point that I can be jailed if I negligently allow them to work with traces in their system and they kill someone. So fuck em

Ahhhh... insane rules, don't get me wrong I understand why, but on drugs is one thing, trace drugs is another. Surely you'd do the time for your mistake :shifty:

[skippa1]

Ahhhh... insane rules, don't get me wrong I understand why, but on drugs is one thing, trace drugs is another. Surely you'd do the time for your mistake :shifty:

for you....yes, but only because we are getting to know each other so well.

[blue rider]

Truck drivers. I test for alcohol, P and cannabis

I had 10 come for interviews in one hit from WINZ. When told they were being drug tested, 8 walked, of the remaining 2, both were tested, one passed. Incidentally, the one that passed crashed his truck, did a post acident test and failed. Let me see, what percentage is that now.....????? Incidentally, would you be happy with your family on the road with a truck driver driving an 18 tonne truck stoned?

fair enough, but that is you as an employer testing a possible new hiree.
i still will not be happy about a state that decides to test a vulnerable part of the population to be tested for drugs as if they were common criminals.

i would however support Paula Bennett if she were to declare that she re-funds the welfare she received as a single mother on the dbd now that she is fully employed as a minister under national.

[ducatilover]

welsh

I found the problem :bleh:

I wanted to get my truck licence, but at my last eye test I was lucky enough to be allowed back on a bike/in a car :yes: So ya'll better keep an eye out fot me, coz I've only got one that legally works.

Back on topic, is there really a huge amount of work in Chirstchurch currently? I had a mate say much of it hasn't actually started yet?

[mashman]

for you....yes, but only because we are getting to know each other so well.

:rofl: are we at the flowers stage yet? If so, can you send me poppy's?

[bogan]

It sucks for those that are really trying

Yup, and we need to remember that before indulging in too much benefit bashing I think.

Not that he is actually on the benefit though.

[puddytat]

I reckon its just another Govt. diversion stategy.....they have no real intent to use this as a way of solving any of the problems its supposed to.
I think people are just going to have to get used to the fact that drugs are here to stay & that acctually nowadays those that imbibe one or the other drug are actually the "norm"....maybe some people just have to accept that that is how society is now.
Seems to again infringe on peoples lives that are actually normal & who now because of a dodgey Govt face being unable to enjoy a hooter at the end of the day in the comfort of their home. Or a line at the pub. or an E. WTF.
If you cant find a worker that'll submit to your testing then maybe its you as an employer that may have to adjust your thinking...

[skippa1]

fair enough, but that is you as an employer testing a possible new hiree.
i still will not be happy about a state that decides to test a vulnerable part of the population to be tested for drugs as if they were common criminals.

i would however support Paula Bennett if she were to declare that she re-funds the welfare she received as a single mother on the dbd now that she is fully employed as a minister under national.

Fair enough, as a person, not an employer, I still dont care for paying for someone who has gone to the state asking for help because they are desperate, and the state taking money off me that I earned the old fashioned way, and giving it to that person who then spends it doing something illegal and for pure self satisfaction. Just doesnt seem fair to me. Call it narrow minded or whatever but I worked for that money, I got out of bed for it and I spent the day away from home and my family for it. I would like to know that the person that was getting it, was being sensible with it, for the benefit of their famiy. Not self satisfaction.

[skippa1]

I reckon its just another Govt. diversion stategy.....they have no real intent to use this as a way of solving any of the problems its supposed to.
I think people are just going to have to get used to the fact that drugs are here to stay & that acctually nowadays those that imbibe one or the other drug are actually the "norm"....maybe some people just have to accept that that is how society is now.
Seems to again infringe on peoples lives that are actually normal & who now because of a dodgey Govt face being unable to enjoy a hooter at the end of the day in the comfort of their home. Or a line at the pub. or an E. WTF.
If you cant find a worker that'll submit to your testing then maybe its you as an employer that may have to adjust your thinking...

ahhhh, I dont find it hard getting them to do the test, only hard to get them to pass the test.....read properly

[skippa1]

Yup, and we need to remember that before indulging in too much benefit bashing I think.

Not that he is actually on the benefit though.

mate, I think the benefit is great and really helps those in need, but it has been said elsewhere, if I have to pass a drug test to get a job, why shouldnt beneficiaries have to in order to get a job. As an employeer I have sat one in order to be fair to present and future staff

[skippa1]

:rofl: are we at the flowers stage yet? If so, can you send me poppy's?

daytura for you

[bogan]

mate, I think the benefit is great and really helps those in need, but it has been said elsewhere, if I have to pass a drug test to get a job, why shouldnt beneficiaries have to in order to get a job. As an employeer I have sat one in order to be fair to present and future staff

Yup, no problem with having them have to pass the test before getting work, its the apparent beneficiary bashing aspect of this thing I'm not sure I agree with is all. Personally, I think we need to look at drugged drivers before cutting benefits to those who don't submit to drug testing. And something to consider, if they clean up for the test, start using again, and do some damage on the job, or on the way to work, is they a net gain, or loss to society?

[blue rider]

Fair enough, as a person, not an employer, I still dont care for paying for someone who has gone to the state asking for help because they are desperate, and the state taking money off me that I earned the old fashioned way, and giving it to that person who then spends it doing something illegal and for pure self satisfaction. Just doesnt seem fair to me. Call it narrow minded or whatever but I worked for that money, I got out of bed for it and I spent the day away from home and my family for it. I would like to know that the person that was getting it, was being sensible with it, for the benefit of their famiy. Not self satisfaction.

quite a few of the current unemployed have worked many many years before the financial crash ruined their business, or the earthquake in CHCH did away with the business. should they be drug tested? they have paid taxes, so they have a right to this service. or what are we paying taxes again? to pay some 100 million on consultants to do away with our national silver?

however I am happy for every governmental worker to be drug tested...would not want to spent my tax money on druggie in the beehive and other offices..!

i work with a lot of small/medium sized businesses and the bleeding has not stopped. people don't spend, as their wages hardly keep up with living costs, they are afraid they might not be able to serve their mortgage etc, so they don't spend. As a consequence businesses especially small ones are closing.....whohoooo a new crop of welfare dependent cause our government is to busy shoveling shit up the hill instead of creating jobs...

but hey, lets spend tax money on drug testing mom and pop unemployed cause they might smoke a joint....fucked up priorities really

[Madness]

Fair enough, as a person, not an employer, I still dont care for paying for someone who has gone to the state asking for help because they are desperate, and the state taking money off me that I earned the old fashioned way, and giving it to that person who then spends it doing something illegal and for pure self satisfaction. Just doesnt seem fair to me. Call it narrow minded or whatever but I worked for that money, I got out of bed for it and I spent the day away from home and my family for it. I would like to know that the person that was getting it, was being sensible with it, for the benefit of their famiy. Not self satisfaction.

So you'd be happy to see someone persecuted who has never spent a single dollar of benefit money on cannabis for accepting a free puff down the footy field on a Saturday afternoon with their mates, using a test that cannot determine the time or amount of cannabis consumed?

The shit really does grow on trees ya know :facepalm:

If this shit comes in we won't need to worry about crime rates. It'll be the suicide rates that fly through the roof.

[Madness]

Skippa1 is just a very old troll.

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[mashman]

daytura for you

Ooooo they're pretty. If we had have done this in person we coulda been having that afterglow smoke by now... but I still won't bend for ya in regards to bene's buying drugs (inc booze). Legalise it and encourage them to be growers and they'll become productive members of society, well they'll pay tax... but testing them or removing their benefit, I can't see it ending well at all and I can't see it stopping at bene's. So your surgeon friend, a stoned surgeon hmmmmm :shifty:, with his trace drugs in his system will lose his job, then probably lose his benefit and potentially end up in jail due to the need for getting money and not wanting to work at Maccas because his license has been suspended. The only thing will have changed is the legislation. Kinda seems pointless really. Can't wait to see what happens :yes:

[skippa1]

So you'd be happy to see someone persecuted who has never spent a single dollar of benefit money on cannabis for accepting a free puff down the footy field on a Saturday afternoon with their mates, using a test that cannot determine the time or amount of cannabis consumed?

The shit really does grow on trees ya know :facepalm:

If this shit comes in we won't need to worry about crime rates. It'll be the suicide rates that fly through the roof.

do you REALLY believe that someone who has never smoked before is going to randomly have a toke out in the open at the footy field? I am not anti or pro cannabis, just anti paying for someone elses choice to waste my tax money.

[Madness]

do you REALLY believe that someone who has never smoked before is going to randomly have a toke out in the open at the footy field? I am not anti or pro cannabis, just anti paying for someone elses choice to waste my tax money.

My hypothetical situation didn't involve someone who has never smoked before. Read properly please, or are your bloodshot squinty eyes getting a bit tired? You should try Clear-Eyes. (Thank me later)

[skippa1]

quite a few of the current unemployed have worked many many years before the financial crash ruined their business, or the earthquake in CHCH did away with the business. should they be drug tested? they have paid taxes, so they have a right to this service. or what are we paying taxes again? to pay some 100 million on consultants to do away with our national silver?

however I am happy for every governmental worker to be drug tested...would not want to spent my tax money on druggie in the beehive and other offices..!

i work with a lot of small/medium sized businesses and the bleeding has not stopped. people don't spend, as their wages hardly keep up with living costs, they are afraid they might not be able to serve their mortgage etc, so they don't spend. As a consequence businesses especially small ones are closing.....whohoooo a new crop of welfare dependent cause our government is to busy shoveling shit up the hill instead of creating jobs...

but hey, lets spend tax money on drug testing mom and pop unemployed cause they might smoke a joint....fucked up priorities really

I think that some people are pro and some anti, but at the moment in NZ rightly or wrongly, cannabis is illegal. So why would I condne the government giving out tax money to those that choose to waste it on an illegal activity, to the detriment of those of us that care what happens with our tax money?

[scumdog]

+1

Especially "lifestyle" beneficiaries who grow dope to supplement the money obtained from the long suffering taxpayer.

No!?:eek5:

There's people we pay taxes to enable them to have that life-style?

The bastards...

[skippa1]

My hypothetical situation didn't involve someone who has never smoked before. Read properly please, or are your bloodshot squinty eyes getting a bit tired? You should try Clear-Eyes. (Thank me later)

ok, alright, point taken. But at the end of the day its the risk that they take isnt it?

[ellipsis]

I am not anti or pro cannabis


....I reckon you are...

[scumdog]

m:

If this shit comes in we won't need to worry about crime rates. It'll be the suicide rates that fly through the roof.

Well that would be a start...

[scumdog]

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug out there. Why? It is one of the most damaging drugs, and the easy availability, legal status and low cost make a deadly combination. Maybe we should look at that first instead of trivial matters such as weed. We should also ban breeding of those who are on benefits, as many of them stay home all day and breed like rabbits which increases the demand on the welfare system far more than a few stoners sitting down all day seshing up. Once a kid is born to a beneficiary, it's often a financial burden on the government for the next 18 years (at least!).


Your waffle would carry more weight if so many stoners were not drinkers too...

[skippa1]

Ooooo they're pretty. So your surgeon friend, a stoned surgeon hmmmmm :shifty:, with his trace drugs in his system will lose his job, then probably lose his benefit and potentially end up in jail due to the need for getting money and not wanting to work at Maccas because his license has been suspended. The only thing will have changed is the legislation. Kinda seems pointless really. Can't wait to see what happens :yes:

and so he should. Fucked if I would want some impaired surgeon sticking a knife in me.

The afterglow sounds good, been a few years since had one.

(truth be known, I spent 15 years smoking daily 2-3 times a day and messing with psycadelic chemicals as well. Maybe youre all right and I have just cooked parts of my brain?)

[pete376403]

I'd go down, if I didn't poo every time I thought of earthquakes. Certainly a huge earning potential down there and one would hope, if funding is available, unemployed people could be employed down there with on-the-job training or something of the sort.

Government training funding for Christchurch rebuild is not being spent because apparently there is no demand for trained people yet.


http://catalystrecruit.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/future-skills-shortage-in-christchurch-looking-a-reality/

[skippa1]

....I reckon you are...

you can reckon whatever you like, Im no angel and have done both of our share of drugs. I dont now but I spent years wasted. I paid for my own and never used tax payer money to pay for it.<_<

[scumdog]

It's much easier than this. Do not pay a benefit at all, into their bank account.

They would receive x amount (but not actually receive any money). Their rent is dealt with automatically, same with essentials like power and water. For food, an account is available at the local supermarket, restricted to non-luxury items (ie, no alcohol, cigarettes etc). The govt should receive good pricing from the supermarket because of the bulk buying and customer base. Accounts could easily be setup for various requirements, but naturally you'd have one supplier per requirement, not every single supplier. Completely possible a small amount is supplied for discretionary reasons, but all the staples are taken care of.

Too many have forgotten that a benefit is to help you get back onto your feet when you experience some hardship. The money comes from those that are working. It is not your right to do whatever you like with that money. If you want choice, earn your own money. In the old days, if you kept sponging off everyone's goodwill without contributing, you'd be run out of town.

Great idea - but no Govt would do that while they depend on so many of their votes from beneficiaries

[mashman]

and so he should. Fucked if I would want some impaired surgeon sticking a knife in me.

The afterglow sounds good, been a few years since had one.

(truth be known, I spent 15 years smoking daily 2-3 times a day and messing with psycadelic chemicals as well. Maybe youre all right and I have just cooked parts of my brain?)

Rather that than a surgeon with the DT's? or indeed I'd rather have a surgeon relaxed enough from the night before after a smoke, then one with a hangover. I wouldn't be too thrilled about on the job though, but then I'd be asleep and wouldn't have a clue, unless I didn't wake up that is... fortunately stoners don't leave their couch :eek:

meh... same as most things, you use it or it uses you... and as plenty of people go through that "stage", some never leaving it (lucky feckers... in ways), it may as well be those on the dole?

[CookMySock]

It's all about money. More money in the govts pocket if they force everyone off weed, back onto govt-taxed alcohol, pay fines, govt doesn't pay out on the dole to law(sic) breakers etc.

Watch the situation reverse when when the govt decriminalises.

[ellipsis]

you can reckon whatever you like, Im no angel and have done both of our share of drugs. I dont now but I spent years wasted. I paid for my own and never used tax payer money to pay for it.<_<

...i reckon you are, was an ambiguous statement i threw in as a half lame troll and you snapped at it like a fish at a worm on a hook...like puddytat and BD mentioned, this is likely nothing more than a weak, government curved ball, thrown to the nation to hide other shit they are sneakin behind our backs...and they depend on reactionaries like you to make a big deal of it...obviously it works...and if you are implying that you have done twice as many illicit things as i may have indulged in, then that is very much akin to the 'my cock's bigger than yours' mention you made in a previous post...but probably correct:innocent:

[Brian d marge]

Unless you are selling , you aint buying on he dole , the odd tinnies here or there ,,,but there isnt a lot of flesh in that dole money ...for a reason

Stephen


I want to talk to Samson smarty pants !

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[ducatilover]

Government training funding for Christchurch rebuild is not being spent because apparently there is no demand for trained people yet.


http://catalystrecruit.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/future-skills-shortage-in-christchurch-looking-a-reality/
Thanks for the linky. :yes: I got a pre-trade in carpentry so I can drop a hammer the right way, they need me :shifty:

[scumdog]

Unless you are selling , you aint buying on he dole , the odd tinnies here or there ,,,but there isnt a lot of flesh in that dole money ...for a reason

Stephen

That's why you steal bro, that's why you steal!

Easy-as...;)

[skippa1]

Rather that than a surgeon with the DT's? or indeed I'd rather have a surgeon relaxed enough from the night before after a smoke, then one with a hangover. I wouldn't be too thrilled about on the job though, but then I'd be asleep and wouldn't have a clue, unless I didn't wake up that is... fortunately stoners don't leave their couch :eek:

meh... same as most things, you use it or it uses you... and as plenty of people go through that "stage", some never leaving it (lucky feckers... in ways), it may as well be those on the dole?

I would rather the cash was in my pocket thanks

[unstuck]

Well I better not apply for a bennie then.:doobey::blip: I wonder if I should fire myself.:scratch: And then apply for a PG.

[skippa1]

...i reckon you are, was an ambiguous statement i threw in as a half lame troll and you snapped at it like a fish at a worm on a hook...like puddytat and BD mentioned, this is likely nothing more than a weak, government curved ball, thrown to the nation to hide other shit they are sneakin behind our backs...and they depend on reactionaries like you to make a big deal of it...obviously it works...and if you are implying that you have done twice as many illicit things as i may have indulged in, then that is very much akin to the 'my cock's bigger than yours' mention you made in a previous post...but probably correct:innocent:

yeah, youre right I did bite, maybe I am a reactionary but I just get fucked off with being financially sodomised by the "help me cause I cant help myself" brigade. When I have been at my lowest, I have got off my arse and done what was required to make ends meet and feed my family and I didnt have luxuries or spend money on drugs or alchohol.....I had to feed my family. If it caused me health problems, personal discomfort, lack of sleep or no free time......I just did it. And to put my hand out and ask for someones elses hard earned was an embarasment. These days, it just seems like an expectation. Why shouldnt I make a noise? Its my hard earned money they are spending.

In regard to the biggest cock thing.....I am proud that I have done well, I feel a little sick to the stomach that I wasted so much time and money when I was younger(I still went to work every day). Maybe I wouldnt have a loan to buy my bike?

[wharekura]

yeah, youre right I did bite, maybe I am a reactionary but I just get fucked off with being financially sodomised by the "help me cause I cant help myself" brigade. When I have been at my lowest, I have got off my arse...
skippa, dont let this get to you. there will always be those that feel they have a right to a free lunch while people like u and i and many others work our asses off - then the pricks have the cheek to blow their smoke into our faces and tell us just to handle it, while there hands are extended for more money.

It was the same when we were teens (like the hippys that went to uni and not leave). on the other hand my boss years ago said we should be like india as the poor work themselves out - i dont know what planet he was on but kids begging for food is bshit. Therefore at the beginning I stated i dont mind giving a handup to those in need.

[sidecar bob]

There is this whole attitude coming through that there is a right to use drugs in NZ.
Theyre fucking illegal, if people hadnt actually noticed, so why should the government currently be funding a bunch of dropkicks that are in breach of the country's law? Chuck them off the bene now.
There are plenty of countries where you would be locked up for a long time, or even shot by firing squad for possesion of a tinnie.
Those of you who disagree didnt read yesterday's Hearald.

[Akzle]

Anxt- what dope does to your brain.angst*
this morning's english lesson with bob was bought to you by: wake and bake :doobey:


actually, I agree entirely. There are some luxuries that should be excluded for those getting tax payer funded help. In actual fact, I think that the dole is not high enough to help when you consider that $160/wk isnt going to cover rent let alone food etc. If there were less people abusing the system we could raise the available allowance for the genuine needy.
i can completely understand why people abuse the system: the basic "entitlement" is hardly a living allowance! it sure as shit doesn't help the legitimate "job seekers" when they're worried about anything that might cost an extra 20$, then winz phones them up every month or two and tells them to come in (fuel costs money...)

...what about proactively securing a future for the country instead of justifying the behaviour of leaches?

I wonder, if a stoner arrived at your house every week with his hand out... stoner's don't actually take tax. the govt does that. you voted for them. stop whining.


I cannot fathom how one can afford drugs in any "reasonable" amount on $160p/w. oh that's real easy if you have a vagina... just pop a few out! more money! 12million$ comes into northland EVERY WEEK to prop up career breeders.
i say neuter the bitches. if however, you're one with a penis, it's a lot harder,
but that's alright, because not being duffed allows you to run quickly and climb in and out of windows.


They had an earthquke in Christchurch and need between 25-30,000 extra workers. They pay more than the minimum wage which is more than the dole.no fucking good if your family is not in chch, noone in NZ is offering "fly-in, fly-out" shifts". and i'm not sure if you've noticed... there aren't enough HOUSES in chch for the people displaced by said earthquake.


what are you looking for? and why is a stoner more dangerous than a closet alcoholic.?
what are the drugs you want people tested for?

i am asking because I am curious,
Of the NZ'lers on welfare - how many are abusing the system. really how many? 5 % 10% 50%. Can i have a cost benefit analysis, or is it un-polite to ask? i'd say quite a lot. certainly most of the females. and many of the males, a story came out a while back about a guy collecting the benne for five identities (at the same address - come on!) which would probably have allowed him to live quite comfortably. where's winz's due diligence???
and then there's the bitch that i heard walking past the WINZ office a while back "i came in and got an extra hundred bucks, spent it all on booze but didn't tell them that (*laughs), told them the washing machine broke" - and guess what, she was probably back for another hundy handout.
(bring in food stamps - no booze, no smokes)

i'd also like to see a cost-benefit, infact i'd like the ministry's (ALL ministries) to have wide open accounting practice. their ledgers should be posted online monthly.

but lest we forget the govt isn't obliged to make a profit (which f*cks their argument for private sector wages) the welfare system is intended to support those in times of need.


I reckon its just another Govt. diversion stategy.....they have no real intent to use this as a way of solving any of the problems its supposed to.
I think people are just going to have to get used to the fact that drugs are here to stay & that acctually nowadays those that imbibe one or the other drug are actually the "norm"....maybe some people just have to accept that that is how society is now.
+1 for diversion, but that's nothing new.

cannabis was bought to NZ in the late 19th century.. not by pot heads, or "stoners", but by NUNS, for medicinal purposes. that's a couple hundred years. in fact it wasn't until early-mid in the 20th that it began being legislated against. (with the subsequent and exponential increase in policy enforcement costs) and that (NZ) was based on the american example (good f*ing deal - puppy dogging america) - whitey used booze, blacks smoked hooch. it was a racially motivated policy to keep the blacks (particularly the jazz scene) at the mercy of the whites.
oddly enough "black" crime was a long yard under "white" crime. but it set the precdent.


...and the state taking money off me that I earned the old fashioned way, and giving it to that person who then spends it doing something illegal and for pure self satisfaction.... I got out of bed for it and I spent the day away from home and my family for it. I would like to know that the person that was getting it, was being sensible with it, for the benefit of their famiy. Not self satisfaction. everyone else would tell you it's "human nature" so that's your society's answer to self centeredness.
again. food stamps.

but yes. it's the state that takes the $ from you. and it's also the state that, for whatever reason, has legislated against cannabis. (and the enforcement costs - which are also tax $$) if cannabis was legal would you oppose bennys buying it?



quite a few of the current unemployed have worked many many years before the financial crash ruined their business, or the earthquake in CHCH did away with the business. should they be drug tested? they have paid taxes, so they have a right to this service. or what are we paying taxes again? to pay some 100 million on consultants to do away with our national silver?

however I am happy for every governmental worker to be drug tested...would not want to spent my tax money on druggie in the beehive and other offices..!

i work with a lot of small/medium sized businesses and the bleeding has not stopped. people don't spend, as their wages hardly keep up with living costs, they are afraid they might not be able to serve their mortgage etc, so they don't spend. As a consequence businesses especially small ones are closing.....whohoooo a new crop of welfare dependent cause our government is to busy shoveling shit up the hill instead of creating jobs...

but hey, lets spend tax money on drug testing mom and pop unemployed cause they might smoke a joint....fucked up priorities really+10, all over your face buddy.


Legalise it and encourage them to be growers and they'll become productive members of society, well they'll pay tax...

...So your surgeon friend, a stoned surgeon hmmmmm :shifty:, with his trace drugs in his system will lose his job,
+1 for out-the-box problem solving. - and it would solve the f*ing problem, and probably others.

there are many documented cases of people maintaining their medical practitioners' certificates well into their 80s etc, without running a practice, to keep their MORPHINE (heroin) habits. (france, i'm thinking of)

i know at least two doctors on a personal basis, one smokes, the other doesn't but does not agree with the current mainstream view of dope. i would have no objection to being operated on by a dope smoker. i would have no objection to having a joint with my surgeon before the op.



Your waffle would carry more weight if so many stoners were not drinkers too...

reverse that, what if drinkers were smokers?

[skippa1]

angst*

no fucking good if your family is not in chch, noone in NZ is offering "fly-in, fly-out" shifts". and i'm not sure if you've noticed... there aren't enough HOUSES in chch for the people displaced by said earthquake.


So they could relocate to where the work is......I have done this three times, borrowed the money to do it.



[QUOTE]but yes. it's the state that takes the $ from you. and it's also the state that, for whatever reason, has legislated against cannabis. (and the enforcement costs - which are also tax $$) if cannabis was legal would you oppose bennys buying it?


Moot point cause its not? What if we were all millionaires and the roads were paved with hot mix? And.....its the state that wants to test em because they see an issue with benes smoking herbs

i know at least two doctors on a personal basis, one smokes, the other doesn't but does not agree with the current mainstream view of dope. i would have no objection to being operated on by a dope smoker. i would have no objection to having a joint with my surgeon before the op.


Cool, good for you man

[Paul in NZ]

Sigh – here we go again, arguing about the silly stuff and not looking at the big picture.

The crazy free market job market has delivered us a lot of service level jobs that pay bugger all, have unsociable hours and are often less than 40 hours. These used to be entry level jobs but are now rapidly becoming career spanning ones. Lots of these jobs at (say) The Warehouse or Pak n Save now require staff to pass a drug test. Given that these jobs are pretty damn god awful its no great shock that the holders of these positions seek to lighten the load with a smoke / drink.

What’s not so great is that the line between work and non work activity became a bit blurred for a few and many ended up impaired at work. If you are working night fill at a supermarket there is limited supervision so chances of being caught were low. Because a fair few of these people have to use knives, ladders, box crushers and forklifts etc, accidents increase and they become expensive. It costs companies big bucks in ACC payments if they have a poor work safety record but there is a limited amount they can do in some cases. This is something obvious so they do it. That expense gets passed onto me when I buy my groceries and I'm not a fan of that.

Then we get into the dangerous jobs like power line mechanic etc. Even a tyre fitter. Would you want someone impair changing your tyres?

People seeking work (and you would only seek supermarket work if you didn’t have anything else) need to meet the criteria and that includes being drug and alcohol free. WINZ get fed up sending people for interviews only for them to miss out on something stupid like that. Its fair enough I reckon. Its not bashing anyone its just setting a criteria (much like a job) – you want a job seeker allowance?– here’s what you have to do to qualify!

If you want to live a life full of smoking da ‘erb and drinking, fine – just make sure you can afford it first thanks. Much like if I want a nice motorcycle, I expect to have to work to afford to pay for my luxury item. We live in a free society but that means you are free to make your own destiny – not live for free.

The shame of it is that while I like progress – we were probably a lot better off in the 60’s…

What I'd rather see is some kind of social WoF. You pay taxes for x years you get a credit, You stay clean, legit and look after your kids etc you get a credit. Those credits can be cashed in when you retire etc.

[sidecar bob]

Some fuckin rocket scientist on here now rekons he'd be happy to have a toke with a brain surgeon before he operated on him.
If that's not enough evidence that pot fucks your brain, then I give up.:wacko:

[skippa1]

Some fuckin rocket scientist on here now rekons he'd be happy to have a toke with a brain surgeon before he operated on him.
If that's not enough evidence that pot fucks your brain, then I give up.:wacko:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sidecar bob again.

[imdying]

I read the book, in some areas id say extremely so.
Paticularly in the area of social interaction & what he deemed to be normal behaviour towards others.Your weasel words make the point, thank you.

[imdying]

There is this whole attitude coming through that there is a right to use drugs in NZ.
Theyre fucking illegal, if people hadnt actually noticed, so why should the government currently be funding a bunch of dropkicks that are in breach of the country's law? Chuck them off the bene now.
There are plenty of countries where you would be locked up for a long time, or even shot by firing squad for possesion of a tinnie.
Those of you who disagree didnt read yesterday's Hearald.You are such a fucking moron it's really too easy. There's countries that cut your clit off just for being a woman... and???? You want to follow them too??? Drugs are legal in New Zealand you muppet, but I don't see them suggesting testing beneficiaries for booze. Mind you, if dope growers were one of the puppet masters and not the breweries, then the reverse would be true... Not only that, your weak little mind would also be regurgitating their new propaganda because that's what the government has told you is right, so it must be. People like you who fail to be able to think for themselves make me puke... but I guess you're just following orders... not your fault...

The reality is, which you conveniently ignore, is that this law will hurt children and society, not people you hate so much.

[Paul in NZ]

The reality is, which you conveniently ignore, is that this law will hurt children and society, not people you hate so much.

These kids are already being hurt. Its arguable that the parents living poorly are victims of the old lax ways.

At some point reality shifted - its not acceptable to live like this at the moment. Remember that this version of the welfare state is just one. The rules change all the time as it changes to meet the times. If you don't want to be a victim of it - opt out and get a better job.

[imdying]

These kids are already being hurt. Its arguable that the parents living poorly are victims of the old lax ways.I agree, but I don't think that giving them another kick in the face is going to serve us or them very well.

[sidecar bob]

I consider myself severley scolded & corrected for my ignorance. So drugs ARE legal in NZ & stopping people taking them is comparable to cutting a womans clit off? Riiiiight, just more evidence that drugs fuck you up.

[Paul in NZ]

I agree, but I don't think that giving them another kick in the face is going to serve us or them very well.

At some point you have to draw a line. I'd be happier if some kind of assistance is given in the advent of a failed test of course. Not as some kind of whack social engineering thing but as an attempt to scaffold a reasonable compromise.

[avgas]

Drugs are bad. Ok whores

[skippa1]

You are such a fucking moron it's really too easy. There's countries that cut your clit off just for being a woman... and???? You want to follow them too??? Drugs are legal in New Zealand you muppet, but I don't see them suggesting testing beneficiaries for booze. Mind you, if dope growers were one of the puppet masters and not the breweries, then the reverse would be true... Not only that, your weak little mind would also be regurgitating their new propaganda because that's what the government has told you is right, so it must be. People like you who fail to be able to think for themselves make me puke... but I guess you're just following orders... not your fault...

The reality is, which you conveniently ignore, is that this law will hurt children and society, not people you hate so much.

Thats the whole trouble right there......what you just said. You try to dress the whole mess up as drugs vs alchohol, government propoganda, brewery giant control in an effort to justify a position wherby you dont have to do anything and your quiet Saturday night smoke will be legal. Youre a minority pal and you are a minority because if your opinion mattered and you were right, the general NZ masses would be looking to the cannibis party for guidance. The best argument you have is that the bulk of NZ's are mislead by the government or the breweries and we are singing their message??? You want to lay off that poo you smoke.

Kids are being killed by drop kick parents that are on drug and alchohol binges that are paid for by the taxpayer. This is happening at a hideous rate. 11 and 12 year olds are being caught at school with dope they stole from their parents. Thats whats hurting children, and you condone it with the words you speak.

[oneofsix]

If you don't want to be a victim of it - opt out and get a better job.

Many of them spend many years wishing it was that easy then they give up and give in to the drugs, others are "smarter" and learn from those that have tried and failed. Many leave school as failures, not because they can't obtain some sort of NCEA result but because their skills and talents aren't considered worthy especially if your skills are in the old manual subjects. Sorry shouldn't have watched that Sunday segment on Greene and how he was giving ids self belief through a blacksmithing course which, of course, has now been basically canned.


As you were, keep kicking them whilst they are down.

[imdying]

At some point you have to draw a line. I'd be happier if some kind of assistance is given in the advent of a failed test of course. Not as some kind of whack social engineering thing but as an attempt to scaffold a reasonable compromise.Yeah, can't disagree with that either. My preference would be for the bulk of any money to be invested into research so we can figure out what the root cause is, and maybe even find a solution. Some people can quite happily toke up every night, and never miss a day of work.. some people toke up when they can, and put all their efforts into sorting out their next fix, and run their lives around it, never working. The same with drinking. The same with gambling.

What is it that causes these two completely different personalities (and the huge range of variance in between)? My personal assumption is that it's something to do with addiction, presumably generated by the chemicals in the brain. If it is, and we can identify it, can we help these people? Should it be compulsory? Do we even have the right to? Should people not be allowed to be who they are?

Is not paying tax really that bad? Does anywhere in the world need to follow this insatiable lust for 'progress' above everything else? Are we really that much happier/better off now that we have 300km/h sport bikes for all instead of horses? Is money really that important? Are we trapped in a cycle we can't get out of because the whole world is following the same unsustainable path? What happens when we reach the logical conclusion... the inability of the world to progress in it's rampant desire for growth...? Ok, so obviously we'll do what we always do... slaughter millions so we can start the cycle again... but I just can't understand how that is a good thing.

I'm not convinced that somebody living a life getting high all day and doing so off my hard work, is my enemy. Sure they're an enemy to societal norms, but I'm yet to be convinced that society is even vaguely heading in the right direction, or to be frank, ever will be.

[imdying]

Thats the whole trouble right there......what you just said. You try to dress the whole mess up as drugs vs alchohol, government propoganda, brewery giant control in an effort to justify a position wherby you dont have to do anything and your quiet Saturday night smoke will be legal. Youre a minority pal and you are a minority because if your opinion mattered and you were right, the general NZ masses would be looking to the cannibis party for guidance. The best argument you have is that the bulk of NZ's are mislead by the government or the breweries and we are singing their message??? You want to lay off that poo you smoke.

Kids are being killed by drop kick parents that are on drug and alchohol binges that are paid for by the taxpayer. This is happening at a hideous rate. 11 and 12 year olds are being caught at school with dope they stole from their parents. Thats whats hurting children, and you condone it with the words you speak.I think your simplistic attitude to societies problems is far more likely to compound the problem without really addressing what the real causes are than my words, but that's only one opinion, and you are of course entitled to it. That we're talking about it all does provide some glimmer of hope for the future though I guess.

[imdying]

Many of them spend many years wishing it was that easy then they give up and give in to the drugs, others are "smarter" and learn from those that have tried and failed. Many leave school as failures, not because they can't obtain some sort of NCEA result but because their skills and talents aren't considered worthy especially if your skills are in the old manual subjects. Sorry shouldn't have watched that Sunday segment on Greene and how he was giving ids self belief through a blacksmithing course which, of course, has now been basically canned.


As you were, keep kicking them whilst they are down.We're all told that the goal is to work, have a family, and be a good little member of society. But that doesn't work for everybody, it doesn't give them any inner peace to be a productive little drone. I don't know how to help those people, we collectively, don't know either. Those that have the power have split loyalties between pandering to the majority and helping the minority, and that's never going to work. But what can be done? Is there a way to celebrate our differences and live in harmony? I have pretty grave fears for the human races ability to do that... we've never managed it before, and we're definitely not heading down a path that will take us to that place. Lets have another war... that's always worked out well in the past :)

[Paul in NZ]

As you were, keep kicking them whilst they are down.

Thats bullshit. I will promise you (ask anyone who really knows me) that Vicki and I have been involved in helping across a wide range of charities for decades. Over the years its cost me $$ and a shit load of time sorting out messes left by the permanently addled. I've sat there while they blub away about how I don't understand 'cos I've got a job, I'm white, I'm lucky enough to be married to a good woman, have a great job - you name it. Yet every effort gets sabotaged because drugs and / or booze has fucked them up so badly and the shame is they just can't see it. Want just one example...

Waa waa - I have to walk into town 'cos I'm broke so I can't get to the interviews. (he's broke cos the $$ he had he purchased a twin turbo subby ffs - despite everyone telling him he couldn't afford to run it).. So we stump up for a mountain bike - sweet... It lasted a day 'cos the dumb fuck was wasted and forgot to lock it up at the bene office - just left it out front leaning against a lampost DESPITE 4 people telling him before he left to lock it with the lock he was given.

This guy has lost more jobs than you can count and still can't figure out why. A follow up reveals - yes he refused or failed a drug test and he knew he had to pass as he was required to operate machinery. Hes fathered 4 kids on 3 mothers - who pays for all this shit he keeps on doing.. How do you fix that? Hes had more help offered than you can imagine but turns it down 'cos he might have to go without a smoke.

EVERYONE of his kids is better off taken off him to stop them inheriting stupid.

[Paul in NZ]

I'm not convinced that somebody living a life getting high all day and doing so off my hard work, is my enemy. Sure they're an enemy to societal norms, but I'm yet to be convinced that society is even vaguely heading in the right direction, or to be frank, ever will be.

Thats a good point. Yet I still think the best societies are those with a healthy middle class and a working class with ambitions to become one of them. We all dream different dreams and if your ambition is to become rich enough to become a drug addict so be it. But to just become a black hole of nothing - nope....

[sidecar bob]

Thats the whole trouble right there......what you just said. You try to dress the whole mess up as drugs vs alchohol, government propoganda, brewery giant control in an effort to justify a position wherby you dont have to do anything and your quiet Saturday night smoke will be legal. Youre a minority pal and you are a minority because if your opinion mattered and you were right, the general NZ masses would be looking to the cannibis party for guidance. The best argument you have is that the bulk of NZ's are mislead by the government or the breweries and we are singing their message??? You want to lay off that poo you smoke.

Kids are being killed by drop kick parents that are on drug and alchohol binges that are paid for by the taxpayer. This is happening at a hideous rate. 11 and 12 year olds are being caught at school with dope they stole from their parents. Thats whats hurting children, and you condone it with the words you speak.

Yes yes, but the amazing maze of fantastic arty connections that are going on inside the average pot users brain can make any two completely irrelevant tangents connect with total relevance you see!!!
The other key thing to remember when discussing anything with a pot user is that its all a huge conspiricay man!!, the government is just out to get us all.
The other thing that pot heads always kid themselves with continually, is that they are super mellow & cruisey.
They may well feel that way, but I have seen more than the usual amount of angry outbursts & an overwhelming need to justify their point of view fron the stoner brigade.

[skippa1]

So we stump up for a mountain bike - sweet... It lasted a day 'cos the dumb fuck was wasted and forgot to lock it up at the bene office - just left it out front leaning against a lampost DESPITE 4 people telling him before he left to lock it with the lock he was given.

.

The boy I gave a bike to so he could get to interviews just took it to Cash Converters and sold it the same day. He didnt donate the money the the Sallys either

[skippa1]

We're all told that the goal is to work, have a family, and be a good little member of society. But that doesn't work for everybody, it doesn't give them any inner peace to be a productive little drone.

only because they are lazy fucks that we keep in drugs with our donations. I have yet to meet a person that doesnt get satisfaction from getting up in the morning with purpose and getting paid for working. They may not enjoy their job, but they enjoy the independance and productivity. I strongly believe that the human body and soul need a purpose to keep going and be healthy.

[imdying]

Thats a good point. Yet I still think the best societies are those with a healthy middle class and a working class with ambitions to become one of them. We all dream different dreams and if your ambition is to become rich enough to become a drug addict so be it. But to just become a black hole of nothing - nope....Drug addict, money addict... drugs worse than capitalism? Maybe, maybe not, I have an opinion, but it's not set in stone yet. I guess it comes back to balance in all things.


only because they are lazy fucks that we keep in drugs with our donations. I have yet to meet a person that doesnt get satisfaction from getting up in the morning with purpose and getting paid for working. They may not enjoy their job, but they enjoy the independance and productivity. I strongly believe that the human body and soul need a purpose to keep going and be healthy.Yup, and you and I having such limited views of the world is why neither of us should be making these sorts of decisions. Opinions, for sure, but neither of us are equipped with what's needed to make those decisions... problem is though, who is? Probably very very few people, and I'd wager none of those have the power in any case :(

[Paul in NZ]

Interesting...

"Some people would say people on benefits shouldn't smoke or shouldn't drink. Everyone has their own views on those matters. For the most part, other than very young people, we are leaving people to make their own assessment but our expectations are clear - if you can work, you should work and if the only reason you're not working is because you're failing a drug test because of recreational drug use, we think that's unacceptable and the Government is going to do something about that."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10817004

No problems with that....

[skippa1]

Interesting...

"Some people would say people on benefits shouldn't smoke or shouldn't drink. Everyone has their own views on those matters. For the most part, other than very young people, we are leaving people to make their own assessment but our expectations are clear - if you can work, you should work and if the only reason you're not working is because you're failing a drug test because of recreational drug use, we think that's unacceptable and the Government is going to do something about that."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10817004

No problems with that....
I will live with that.........

[mashman]

only because they are lazy fucks that we keep in drugs with our donations. I have yet to meet a person that doesnt get satisfaction from getting up in the morning with purpose and getting paid for working. They may not enjoy their job, but they enjoy the independance and productivity. I strongly believe that the human body and soul need a purpose to keep going and be healthy.

:wavey: I don't have that satisfaction that you speak of.

[mashman]

If you're all so keen to have a level playing field, then you'll have no problem with a single salary for every NZ'er. Why is your 8 hours worth more than mine and why is mine worth more than hers?

[skippa1]

:wavey: I don't have that satisfaction that you speak of.

interesting,
Quote
Smoking marijuana releases serotonin, a chemical in the brain that triggers a feeling of pleasure. When someone smokes regularly the brain becomes used to higher amounts of serotonin production, so when they quit and production drops they experience a mild mental withdrawal from the dependence on the previously increased levels of serotonin and the pleasure it brought.

Maybe you are just suffering from "coming down";)

[skippa1]

Why is your 8 hours worth more than mine and why is mine worth more than hers?


you dont really want an answer on that do you?:pinch:

[onearmedbandit]

Yes yes, but the amazing maze of fantastic arty connections that are going on inside the average pot users brain can make any two completely irrelevant tangents connect with total relevance you see!!!
The other key thing to remember when discussing anything with a pot user is that its all a huge conspiricay man!!, the government is just out to get us all.
The other thing that pot heads always kid themselves with continually, is that they are super mellow & cruisey.
They may well feel that way, but I have seen more than the usual amount of angry outbursts & an overwhelming need to justify their point of view fron the stoner brigade.

Wow amazing to see such ignorance exists still. Unless you are just trolling. But nah I reckon you're just an idiot who has less of a grip on reality than what you think a 'pot user' has.

[mashman]

interesting,
Quote
Smoking marijuana releases serotonin, a chemical in the brain that triggers a feeling of pleasure. When someone smokes regularly the brain becomes used to higher amounts of serotonin production, so when they quit and production drops they experience a mild mental withdrawal from the dependence on the previously increased levels of serotonin and the pleasure it brought.

Maybe you are just suffering from "coming down";)

So you're assuming that I smoke a lot of dope? You would be very wrong. I'm not down either, but work does not give me that satisfaction. Fuck sake could you be any wrongerer.

[sidecar bob]

Wow amazing to see such ignorance exists still. Unless you are just trolling. But nah I reckon you're just an idiot who has less of a grip on reality than what you think a 'pot user' has.

I probably am an idiot, & im not at all concerned by your groundless put downs, but all my observations are played out in this thread. Clearly you havent read it.

[mashman]

you dont really want an answer on that do you?:pinch:

Yes I do... I'm positively filled with anticipation to find out the excuse you have for this one :yes:

[Paul in NZ]

We are getting off topic.

What this is about is, 'if drugs / alcohol are the only reason you can't get/hold a job and are not a registered addict then you cannot expect a benefit. Simple as that.

[sidecar bob]

So you're assuming that I smoke a lot of dope? You would be very wrong. I'm not down either, but work does not give me that satisfaction. Fuck sake could you be any wrongerer.

Only if he took a good spirited troll all the wrong way.

[skippa1]

Yes I do... I'm positively filled with anticipation to find out the excuse you have for this one :yes:

some people are just worth more because their skill level is higher. Thats all

[Big Dave]

Not to mention that Commies are sooo yesterday.

[mashman]

We are getting off topic.

What this is about is, 'if drugs / alcohol are the only reason you can't get/hold a job and are not a registered addict then you cannot expect a benefit. Simple as that.

That simple huh? Do as we say or else? Can't wait to watch the follow up as the bill of rights takes a kickin.

[mashman]

some people are just worth more because their skill level is higher. Thats all

Thanks for clearing that up... bankers are more skilled than surgeons, check... lawyers are more skilled than Police, check... Corporate CEO's are more skilled than small business owners, check... the perception of value is strong with this one.


Only if he took a good spirited troll all the wrong way.

OMG, really, is that what he was doing... I was just being paranoid :facepalm:... haven't you got one eye to polish or somefink?

[puddytat]

Not to mention that Commies are sooo yesterday.

yeah bro, its the Greens that are all the rage now...

look, Im not against the testing of people who want a benefit....you want help then thems the rules but I have a problem where the lines of what is acceptable crosses over into individual rights & how this could be the thin edge of the wedge that could ultimately see many fine upstanding folk who work hard but like a puff after, being unduly tarred to the same brush.
My mate who works at Stockton said that because of drug testing all those who smoked pot switched to Kronic. He also said that because folk couldnt take a puff now, that the drinking had escalated & so had violence. He would know as he's staunch as fuck.

Seems odd that you'll do time for pot far sooner than the fuckwit with 8 DIC convictions....

[oneofsix]

yeah bro, its the Greens that are all the rage now...

look, Im not against the testing of people who want a benefit....you want help then thems the rules but I have a problem where the lines of what is acceptable crosses over into individual rights & how this could be the thin edge of the wedge that could ultimately see many fine upstanding folk who work hard but like a puff after, being unduly tarred to the same brush.
My mate who works at Stockton said that because of drug testing all those who smoked pot switched to Kronic. He also said that because folk couldnt take a puff now, that the drinking had escalated & so had violence. He would know as he's staunch as fuck.

Seems odd that you'll do time for pot far sooner than the fuckwit with 8 DIC convictions....

I thought Greens were just Commies with a paint job :pinch:

Not odd, its law not justice, business not fairness. History of the substances would also suggest it has nothing to do with the affects.

[onearmedbandit]

I probably am an idiot, & im not at all concerned by your groundless put downs, but all my observations are played out in this thread. Clearly you havent read it.

So you make sweeping generalisations based on the posts of a handful of people? Groundless? I think you've just proved that my 'put downs' are far from groundless.

[sidecar bob]

So you make sweeping generalisations based on the posts of a handful of people? Groundless? I think you've just proved that my 'put downs' are far from groundless.

Nope, my "sweeping generalisations" & opinions on the behaviour of stoners was well & truly developed at least 15 years before this thead existed.
4th rule of stoner arguing, if the opponent has you beat, call him an idiot without any explination & hope othors are to stupid to notice.

[Paul in NZ]

That simple huh? Do as we say or else? Can't wait to watch the follow up as the bill of rights takes a kickin.

How the fuck do you possibly join those two together?

If you want the $$ here are the criteria. There are already a bunch of qualifiers around getting a handout?

What you are saying is so crazy I think you are trolling (or insane)

[Big Dave]

>> to stupid to notice.<<


Hitcher's Law of Internet Irony.

The hostility of any aspersion cast is proportional to the likelihood of it containing a grammatical error.

[Dave-]

Student loans is another big problem.

Need to see loans given to those only willing to study useful degrees, and see allowances given to those who are clean (of drugs) and who put in the proportionate number of hours.

I get $242pw for 91 hours, arts students get $242pw for 4 hours.

I should be able to pay my loan off in 2 or 3 years, arts students never will.

I also work part time, pay tax (even pay off a bit of my loan as I go).

That's what is wrong with studnt loan lending in New Zealand.

[ducatilover]

Strange how this debate sparking issue happens to be let loose as the asset sale thingy is being done eh? :innocent:

[Str8 Jacket]

Strange how this debate sparking issue happens to be let loose as the asset sale thingy is being done eh? :innocent:

Ha, there is no coincidence. Remember when things were "passed under urgency" during the ChCh earthquake and Pike River disaster..... Distract the people and then they'll only find out once it's too late.

[imdying]

if the only reason you're not working is because you're failing a drug test because of recreational drug use, we think that's unacceptable and the Government is going to do something about that.Yeah that's not entirely unreasonable, although I doubt that they could or would be able to narrow it down that finely.


We are getting off topic.

What this is about is, 'if drugs / alcohol are the only reason you can't get/hold a job and are not a registered addict then you cannot expect a benefit. Simple as that.Fair call too. I would like to add though, if not a benefit, then that shouldn't mean abandonment, those people should still be given help in other ways.

But I still cannot agree with no benefit just because you have smoked a joint at some point in the last month (or whatever the test is able to look back to). That does not define an addict.

[imdying]

Nope, my "sweeping generalisations" & opinions on the behaviour of stoners was well & truly developed at least 15 years before this thead existed.
4th rule of stoner arguing, if the opponent has you beat, call him an idiot without any explination & hope othors are to stupid to notice.Bob, I have to apologise for the way I attacked you earlier in the thread, it wasn't productive. Having said that, your completely inflexible point of view isn't going to move the debate towards a solution. You seem a little angry, I'd suggest a joint but I suspect you might find that a little inflamatory.


Student loans is another big problem.

Need to see loans given to those only willing to study useful degrees, and see allowances given to those who are clean (of drugs) and who put in the proportionate number of hours.

I get $242pw for 91 hours, arts students get $242pw for 4 hours.

I should be able to pay my loan off in 2 or 3 years, arts students never will.

I also work part time, pay tax (even pay off a bit of my loan as I go).

That's what is wrong with studnt loan lending in New Zealand.Start a thread. I used a student loan to quadruple what the government takes from me in tax per annum, and I've paid it off, so it's a system I'm actually quite grateful for. I would have done it without having it available, but it made it a whole heap easier.

Just remember, even though you apparently put little to no value on the arts, value is still generated. You simply cannot measure everything in dollars and cents.

[onearmedbandit]

Yes yes, but the amazing maze of fantastic arty connections that are going on inside the average pot users brain can make any two completely irrelevant tangents connect with total relevance you see!!!
The other key thing to remember when discussing anything with a pot user is that its all a huge conspiricay man!!, the government is just out to get us all.
The other thing that pot heads always kid themselves with continually, is that they are super mellow & cruisey.
They may well feel that way, but I have seen more than the usual amount of angry outbursts & an overwhelming need to justify their point of view fron the stoner brigade.


Nope, my "sweeping generalisations" & opinions on the behaviour of stoners was well & truly developed at least 15 years before this thead existed.
4th rule of stoner arguing, if the opponent has you beat, call him an idiot without any explination & hope othors are to stupid to notice.


All the explanation you need is in the post quoted above. To make sweeping generalisations like the ones you did takes either ignorance or just plain old stupidity. I know many smokers who don't fit in with what you have stated. In fact I bet you do too, you just don't know they are smokers. Either because they don't want anyone to know, due to the stigma associated with it, or because they know how narrow minded you are and don't want to hear your shit.

4th rule of stoner arguing? Don't make me laugh. Got me beat? Now I know you're trying to make me laugh.

Actually I should probably give up arguing with you. Have you informed BMW that they have mistakenly sold their 4.0l V8's as 4.4l units? I remember how certain you were back then as well. You were wrong in that instance as well. At least you are consistant.

[oneofsix]

Student loans is another big problem.

Need to see loans given to those only willing to study useful degrees, and see allowances given to those who are clean (of drugs) and who put in the proportionate number of hours.

I get $242pw for 91 hours, arts students get $242pw for 4 hours.

I should be able to pay my loan off in 2 or 3 years, arts students never will.

I also work part time, pay tax (even pay off a bit of my loan as I go).

That's what is wrong with studnt loan lending in New Zealand.

I can just see that "arts students" causing confusing between artists and those studying a BA. Which do you mean? And do you mean that Margaret Mahey, Ian McCann, Sir Peter Jackson aren't worth anything? to name but a few 'artists'.
Some of the best artist produce their best works stoned, is that the link to the topic?

[Paul in NZ]

I can just see that "arts students" causing confusing between artists and those studying a BA. Which do you mean? And do you mean that Margaret Mahey, Ian McCann, Sir Peter Jackson aren't worth anything? to name but a few 'artists'.
Some of the best artist produce their best works stoned, is that the link to the topic?

Or my daughters with BA/Bteach who work in education - (its a calling for them)

[avgas]

Student loans is another big problem.

Need to see loans given to those only willing to study useful degrees, and see allowances given to those who are clean (of drugs) and who put in the proportionate number of hours.

I get $242pw for 91 hours, arts students get $242pw for 4 hours.

I should be able to pay my loan off in 2 or 3 years, arts students never will.

I also work part time, pay tax (even pay off a bit of my loan as I go).

That's what is wrong with studnt loan lending in New Zealand.
Fuck you must be sitting pretty. It was only a few years ago where I had to put $150/week on loan to pay my rent/power/phone/gas/rego........I had to work to eat.
I am not a fan of art students - but I have met a few in my life who ended up ditching the art thing and becoming useful members of society. So probably not best to make a generalizations.

As for paying off loans. Fuck your lucky if you can pay it off in a few years. Took me about 7 years to pay off my engineering one. My MBA will take another 3. I pay extra every week so I can get it out of the way (about $170/week).

I personally think the loan scheme is ok. If people want to fuck themselves for life - let them go for it. If its not a govt loan they will simply borrow from Credit Union to support their studies. Its the student allowance scheme I have issue with. Either make it a blanket agreement thing, or no one gets it.
Imagine not getting an unemployment or sickness benefit if your parents earned over $70K. Fucking joke.

[Brian d marge]

there was a time when you didnt have to use , or have a student loan ...I wonder why it changed .........

Stephen


biggest con job in the history of man

[sidecar bob]

Bob, I have to apologise for the way I attacked you earlier in the thread, it wasn't productive. Having said that, your completely inflexible point of view isn't going to move the debate towards a solution. You seem a little angry, I'd suggest a joint but I suspect you might find that a little inflamatory.


Its raining, I was bored, an inflexible viewpoint was mainly for entertainment, no offence taken.
FYI I was a mega stoner in my 20's, looking back it was a bad time & not something I would care to repeat.

[mashman]

How the fuck do you possibly join those two together?

If you want the $$ here are the criteria. There are already a bunch of qualifiers around getting a handout?

What you are saying is so crazy I think you are trolling (or insane)

Pretty simple really. Do as you are told or we will take something off you. The dole is a human right in my book, especially if the "market" isn't going to provide well paying jobs.

Aye, criteria that never existed until some fuckwit in a blue tie decided that that's the way it should be. Yes there are and I'd much rather they were given the hand out to do with what they would like, than to push something upon them because there aren't enough jobs to go around. Rather that than having someone stay clean for a week, taking a job that they have no intention of keeping let alone putting any effort into and then going back to getting stoned as and when they feel. It's the same as the speed camera scam. We take our foot off the throttle if we know it's there, but it really doesn't change a damned thing... other than a human right has been lost and a bucket of cash disappears into yet another useless scheme. What a bunch of geniuses... but then it ain't surprising politicians get away with useless policy when people will roll over and just take what's being peddled. I donlt see this as a positive move on many fronts, quite the opposite.

Bit of the first, lashings of the last.