Price negotiation

[Coneamahfone]

So guys when buying a "new" bike, how much do you think is appropriate negotiate off the price. Do you think there is a standard 15% off for cash etc when;

1) Buying New from a dealer
2) Buying Used from a dealer
3) Buying from a private seller

I read an article one time (about buying a cage) that used dealers expect you to negociate up to 15% off the sticker price.

what have your experences been. I had $2k knocked of the hornet when I bought that from a dealer used.

[98tls]

Depends if your trading a bike in on a new one,ive sold both bikes and cars for a living and more often than not the guy buying wants retail for his trade and to pay nothing for the new one:no:.I remember when the profit margin was 12% in a new car so you want 15% off:laugh:

[Akzle]

So guys when buying a "new" bike, how much do you think is appropriate negotiate off the price. Do you think there is a standard 15% off for cash etc when;

1) Buying New from a dealer
2) Buying Used from a dealer
3) Buying from a private seller

I read an article one time (about buying a cage) that used dealers expect you to negociate up to 15% off the sticker price.

what have your experences been. I had $2k knocked of the hornet when I bought that from a dealer used.

it's all negotiation, who and wherever you're buying from.
generally pick what YOU think the item is worth, what it's advertised for, and go 100% again down, to start negotiations. ie if you think it's worth 175$, it's advo'd at 200, you start negotiations at 150$.

something is only worth what the seller is willing to sell it for.
a lathe might be bought for 2k$, but to an engineer that's his livelihood, so it's worht infinitely more. a boat at 16k$, but again, a fishmonger's livelihood.


anything you can pay cash for should be 15% straight off, especially if they're offering "finance"

i've known people ot walk out of car yards with <50% off stickered price (the salesman was nearly crying). just walk around the car and point to every dent, scratch, uneven tyre wear etc etc etc.

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin), and can generally afford to go a lot lower than you'd think. but you wont know until you ask.

[5150]

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin),

And you have proof for such an allegation?

Most bike shops I know will be lucky to make 5-10% on their parts and accessories. Lucky if that on the bikes they sell

[Coneamahfone]

it's all negotiation, who and wherever you're buying from.
generally pick what YOU think the item is worth, what it's advertised for, and go 100% again down, to start negotiations. ie if you think it's worth 175$, it's advo'd at 200, you start negotiations at 150$.

something is only worth what the seller is willing to sell it for.
a lathe might be bought for 2k$, but to an engineer that's his livelihood, so it's worht infinitely more. a boat at 16k$, but again, a fishmonger's livelihood.


anything you can pay cash for should be 15% straight off, especially if they're offering "finance"

i've known people ot walk out of car yards with <50% off stickered price (the salesman was nearly crying). just walk around the car and point to every dent, scratch, uneven tyre wear etc etc etc.

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin), and can generally afford to go a lot lower than you'd think. but you wont know until you ask.


I guess for every guy who gets 50% off there is 200 who pay sticker price. Its funny in western nations that bargaining/haggling are seen as 'dirty' and 'low brow'. everything used to be up for negotiation.

[Quasievil]

And you have proof for such an allegation?

Most bike shops I know will be lucky to make 5-10% on their parts and accessories. Lucky if that on the bikes they sell

Who told you that buddy?
Bikes shops make more than that I assure you.

[5150]

Who told you that buddy?
Bikes shops make more than that I assure you.

more then 5-10% maybe, but haven't heard of any that would stick 100% on all their stock

[Quasievil]

more then 5-10% maybe, but haven't heard of any that would stick 100% on all their stock

30% minimum usually.

[Akzle]

And you have proof for such an allegation?

Most bike shops I know will be lucky to make 5-10% on their parts and accessories. Lucky if that on the bikes they sell

i was thinking shops in general.
even at 60% off sales, briscoes is still turning profit.
my mate at repco - clutch kit for the ute - staff (cst+5%) 180$ - retail, about ~600. go figuire.

i'd imagine bikes may have a lower margin, but gear certainly will be profitable. (that's why they can give you "discounts" on gear when you buy a bike - you feel good and they're still making money!

[GTRMAN]

it's all negotiation, who and wherever you're buying from.
generally pick what YOU think the item is worth, what it's advertised for, and go 100% again down, to start negotiations. ie if you think it's worth 175$, it's advo'd at 200, you start negotiations at 150$.

something is only worth what the seller is willing to sell it for.
a lathe might be bought for 2k$, but to an engineer that's his livelihood, so it's worht infinitely more. a boat at 16k$, but again, a fishmonger's livelihood.


anything you can pay cash for should be 15% straight off, especially if they're offering "finance"

i've known people ot walk out of car yards with <50% off stickered price (the salesman was nearly crying). just walk around the car and point to every dent, scratch, uneven tyre wear etc etc etc.

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin), and can generally afford to go a lot lower than you'd think. but you wont know until you ask.



Dude can you even count? 100% of $200 is...... $200.

[SMOKEU]

And you have proof for such an allegation?

Most bike shops I know will be lucky to make 5-10% on their parts and accessories. Lucky if that on the bikes they sell

If I can buy something new off eBay including shipping and it ends up cheaper than buying exactly the same thing in NZ, then someone is making a lot of money.

[Quasievil]

If I can buy something new off eBay including shipping and it ends up cheaper than buying exactly the same thing in NZ, then someone is making a lot of money.


Oh here we go .............................:facepalm:

and why do you think that is stupid

[Ender EnZed]

The OP was asking about whole motorcycles rather than gear. Ebay is pretty much irrelevant.

[Katman]

The margin on new bikes is tiny.

A new bike with a retail of $10,000 is likely to cost the dealer about $9,000.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The margin on new bikes is tiny.

A new bike with a retail of $10,000 is likely to cost the dealer about $9,000.

GST exclusive both cases? 10% GP? really?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Depends if your trading a bike in on a new one,ive sold both bikes and cars for a living and more often than not the guy buying wants retail for his trade and to pay nothing for the new one:no:.I remember when the profit margin was 12% in a new car so you want 15% off:laugh:

But I thought the customer was always right?

[Maha]

My bike was $2K less than the black FZ8 right next to it because it 800Kms clocked up already.
Dealer Whealer had taken it around the Coromandel a week or so earlier.
So if you pay full retail on a bike, take it back in 2 days for its 1st service, try trading it in, it could be worth $2K less than what you paid for it 2 days prior.

I got them to do its 1st service before I rode away..by then it had about 930Kms on it due to my test ride.
ORC's/1st Service/Pack Rack all for no extra charge..Im happy.

[onearmedbandit]

anything you can pay cash for should be 15% straight off, especially if they're offering "finance"




I'm in car sales. We already lose when selling for cash, in other words we get a commission from the finance company for putting the finance through them. So when someone wants a discount for cash it's a very unlikable situation for us.

[Akzle]

Dude can you even count? 100% of $200 is...... $200.

200-175=25
100% x 25 =25,
25+25=50
200-50=150.

get it?

[Crasherfromwayback]

i've known people ot walk out of car yards with <50% off stickered price (the salesman was nearly crying). just walk around the car and point to every dent, scratch, uneven tyre wear etc etc etc.

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin), and can generally afford to go a lot lower than you'd think. but you wont know until you ask.
[/COLOR]

You've got no idea whatsoever.

[5150]

200-175=25
100% x 25 =25,
25+25=50
200-50=150.

get it?

:confused::scratch:

Now where is my calculator?

[scott411]

GST exclusive both cases? 10% GP? really?

by the time the have assembled it, and freighted it (in some cases) it is about what most dealerships work off on average,

[bogan]

If I can buy something new off eBay including shipping and it ends up cheaper than buying exactly the same thing in NZ, then someone is making a lot of money.

Not if you buy it off ebay they're not :shifty: I think the key error you make, is that someone, is actually someones, and the bike shops probably aren't at the top of that list.

As to the op, how about asking for some gear or servicing thrown into the deal?

[HenryDorsetCase]

by the time the have assembled it, and freighted it (in some cases) it is about what most dealerships work off on average,

but, but, but that is completely unsustainable! i.e. if you were a retailer, no way could you keep the doors open based on that. So new bikes are almost a loss leader?!??!

[tigertim20]

So guys when buying a "new" bike, how much do you think is appropriate negotiate off the price. Do you think there is a standard 15% off for cash etc when;

1) Buying New from a dealer
2) Buying Used from a dealer
3) Buying from a private seller

I read an article one time (about buying a cage) that used dealers expect you to negociate up to 15% off the sticker price.

what have your experences been. I had $2k knocked of the hornet when I bought that from a dealer used.

Ive not read the other answers, but you need to mark the article you read as total bullshit.
the margins on cars and bikes are very slim.

When buying a new bike from a dealer, you might, MIGHT get a couple hundred off the bike, what you will have more success with though, is asking what they could throw in for you, like say a helmet and a pair of gloves, or a jacket, maybe a voucher for some rider training instead, or 15% discount on labour for any servicing for the next 18 months etc etc etc.

buying used from a dealer, same deal, it might look like they make money, but they take the risk, and the hit if the second hand bike lunches its engine in a week, and there are other costs for the dealer.

buying from a private seller is a totally different matter entirely, from what I can see, the majority of people inflate their prices quite heavily, because they expect some bargaining, however there are those who state their price, and will not accept a dollar over it - which is fair enough. I fall closer to the second category than the first.

[tigertim20]

If I can buy something new off eBay including shipping and it ends up cheaper than buying exactly the same thing in NZ, then someone is making a lot of money.
here are a few things youve failed to consider.
a retailer/dealer pays probably the same (or very close to) as you have for the item.
then they pay import duties and tariffs etc.
they then have to factor in GST to their sale price.
then they have to add a small amount to ensure they make a profit - remember that this profit needs to consider overheads, do you have any idea how much it costs in rent or mortgage payments on a business premise? the amount of electricity just for being open? advertising to get the customer there in the first place? wages for sales staff who have to be paid all day, even though they might spend 4 hours a day doing fuckall cos no customers have come in yet have to stay there, getting paid, in case someone comes in and wants something?

there is much, much more to it than you realise.

But I thought the customer always thinks they are right
I fixed that for you

You've got no idea whatsoever.
+1

by the time the have assembled it, and freighted it (in some cases) it is about what most dealerships work off on average,
these are yet more costs!

[98tls]

i've known people ot walk out of car yards with <50% off stickered price (the salesman was nearly crying). just walk around the car and point to every dent, scratch, uneven tyre wear etc etc etc.



I spent many years selling Toyotas and Fords,never once did i see someone buy a car for 50% of window price,or nowhere near it.Cant imagine it happening to be honest,at times we a set fairly high asking price.if its a good car and its just come into stock why not you never know but no dealer ive ever met could afford to inflate the asking price 50%,that aside the salesman wouldnt be crying he gets paid by units out the door not what they sell for.

[98tls]

Will just add that in many cases franchised dealers end up making fuck all outta new cars,its the second hand cars and the service dept that keeps them afloat.

[Drew]

but, but, but that is completely unsustainable! i.e. if you were a retailer, no way could you keep the doors open based on that. So new bikes are almost a loss leader?!??!There is a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul between bike shop departments. There is fuck all money in the bikes themselves.

If there was $2000 profit in a bike, consider the fact that said bike is in a shop that cost money, with sales people needing to be paid for waiting for a buyer, if it's a demostrator or used, warrants to be paid for every six months, lights running to make it look shiney, and so on and so fourth.

I happen to have a very close mate that owns a successful bike shop, you'd be surprised how little profit the business makes.

So if you do happen accross a bike you like, can afford, near you, don't be offended when you get laughed out of the shop for trying to get 15% off.

[onearmedbandit]

but, but, but that is completely unsustainable! i.e. if you were a retailer, no way could you keep the doors open based on that. So new bikes are almost a loss leader?!??!

It's been said here before that most if not all new dealers rely on service and parts to keep the businesses open. Selling the bike/car is just the vehicle to getting paid for servicing/repairs/parts.

Same as electrical goods (from a salespersons perspective). A new TV/Fridge/Washing machine will have 22-24% in it. Almost every weekend there is a '20%' off sale. Salesperson gets paid 5% of profit. So on a $1000 TV with 20% off you could expect that TV will earn the salesperson a few dollars commission. Where they make their money is in the extras, warranties, cables, cleaning cloths (I kid you not). These products have up to 70% (and in some instances much more - 'Monster' brand HDMI cables for $400??) profit in them.

[HenryDorsetCase]

It's been said here before that most if not all new dealers rely on service and parts to keep the businesses open. Selling the bike/car is just the vehicle to getting paid for servicing/repairs/parts.

Same as electrical goods (from a salespersons perspective). A new TV/Fridge/Washing machine will have 22-24% in it. Almost every weekend there is a '20%' off sale. Salesperson gets paid 5% of profit. So on a $1000 TV with 20% off you could expect that TV will earn the salesperson a few dollars commission. Where they make their money is in the extras, warranties, cables, cleaning cloths (I kid you not). These products have up to 70% (and in some instances much more - 'Monster' brand HDMI cables for $400??) profit in them.

Thats why Hardly NOrmal hate me: I haggle them down then buy all the other stuff elsewhere. And then giggle like a schoolgirl when they try and sell me an extended warranty: that is THE biggest margin in the shop, because it does nothing, yet costs plenty....

[Quasievil]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eZbtAFq7dP8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[baffa]

I'm in car sales. We already lose when selling for cash, in other words we get a commission from the finance company for putting the finance through them. So when someone wants a discount for cash it's a very unlikable situation for us.

Yup, finance makes car sales a good chunk of money, so you'd be much more likely to get a deal if you were on finance. And the Finance manager pockets a good amount of it too.

In saying that, if you do finance a vehicle, I would fight for a better finance rate.
When I was on a car yard, the finance companies would offer a base finance rate for the customer, of say 11%, then if the car yard increased to rate to 18%, they would pocket the 7% difference, so if this is still the case, there may be room to move on finance.

It is always worth trying to haggle though. I've saved money buying all sorts of wierd things, including a bottle of whiskey, and im not even that good at it.

[Robert Taylor]

So guys when buying a "new" bike, how much do you think is appropriate negotiate off the price. Do you think there is a standard 15% off for cash etc when;

1) Buying New from a dealer
2) Buying Used from a dealer
3) Buying from a private seller

I read an article one time (about buying a cage) that used dealers expect you to negociate up to 15% off the sticker price.

what have your experences been. I had $2k knocked of the hornet when I bought that from a dealer used.

Many motorcycles have LESS than 10% margin in them, and thats before predelivery costs. They cannot be a charity when margins in bikes are below the level of sensibility

[ckai]

So the moral of story is:

You can haggle as much as you want if you think the seller is making money but if you think the seller isn't making any money then don't haggle

:niceone:

or...there is no rule of thumb and just do what the hell you want ;)

[Drew]

So the moral of story is:

You can haggle as much as you want if you think the seller is making money but if you think the seller isn't making any money then don't haggle

:niceone:

or...there is no rule of thumb and just do what the hell you want ;)

There's no harm in asking, so long as you don't mind being told no sometimes.

Also, just about all retail vehical sellers MAKE more money on finance deals. So, if you start waving cash around and want bigger discount, you're less likely to get it.

[nzspokes]

Real question here is why dont Motorcycle retailers open Sundays........:confused:

[Ocean1]

Also, just about all retail vehical sellers MAKE more money on finance deals. So, if you start waving cash around and want bigger discount, you're less likely to get it.

Before the recent economic... realignment HD supposedly grossed more from finance than they did from making motorcycles.

[placidfemme]

Real question here is why dont Motorcycle retailers open Sundays........:confused:

Because you also expect them to be open Mon-Sat, and working 7 days is shitter... plus it is not as busy as you think, I have worked at 3 shops that have given it a go, and it was a massive fail in all cases, not as many people as you think go on Sundays.

In regards to the OP and the others who seem to think bike shops make a killing in new bike sales have no idea what they are talking about, look at the responses from those in the industry, 10% is lucky, and as also mentioned a lot of robbing from margins between departments goes on to get a balance, but the sales department really doesn't make as much as you think. Also in regards to the comment on parts being a "minimum" 30% margin is also not totally accurate as normally it is a "maximum" 30% margin, most suppliers advertise everywhere, so you'd be pressed to find a dealer up-marking to 30+ because it's too easy to be caught out. Some of you general public really have no idea :facepalm:

[Robert Taylor]

Because you also expect them to be open Mon-Sat, and working 7 days is shitter... plus it is not as busy as you think, I have worked at 3 shops that have given it a go, and it was a massive fail in all cases, not as many people as you think go on Sundays.

In regards to the OP and the others who seem to think bike shops make a killing in new bike sales have no idea what they are talking about, look at the responses from those in the industry, 10% is lucky, and as also mentioned a lot of robbing from margins between departments goes on to get a balance, but the sales department really doesn't make as much as you think. Also in regards to the comment on parts being a "minimum" 30% margin is also not totally accurate as normally it is a "maximum" 30% margin, most suppliers advertise everywhere, so you'd be pressed to find a dealer up-marking to 30+ because it's too easy to be caught out. Some of you general public really have no idea :facepalm:

Well said, there are plenty who have been blissfully unaware of whats involved who have gone on to open motorcycle shops, ''the current shops are not doing it properly and I'll show them!'' And then theres a good dose of reality of actually how hard it is to make a complex business run smoothly and turn a profit. Manufacturers abysmal warranty reimbursement rates being a real eye opener for one.... After turning a small fortune into a tiny one the doors are then closed. The reality also is that we have way way too many motorcycle shops for such a small population.
When I owned a shop the margin on a popular 2 wheel farmbike was about 20%, now on that same model its 9% BEFORE UNCRATING AND PREDELIVERY. That is madness and unsustainable.
Part of the problem here is that where you have big box retailers such as Briscoes advertising 50% off sales then too many people ( who dont own businesses ) blissfully think that everyone makes huge margins on all products....

[p.dath]

So guys when buying a "new" bike, how much do you think is appropriate negotiate off the price. Do you think there is a standard 15% off for cash etc when;

1) Buying New from a dealer
2) Buying Used from a dealer
3) Buying from a private seller

I read an article one time (about buying a cage) that used dealers expect you to negociate up to 15% off the sticker price.

what have your experences been. I had $2k knocked of the hornet when I bought that from a dealer used.

The last bike I bought [second hand] from a dealer was already being advertised at what I considered to be a fair price - which I told the dealer, and I didn't try and knock him down. I appreciate that he needs to make a profit to stay in business - and I don't want any more bike dealers dissappearing.

HOWEVER, the tyres on the bike were close to being completely worn out, so I did negotiate a deal on a set of replacement tyres. Also the next service for the bike was one of those "hell expensive" ones, so I negotiated to have that done as well. Basically I wanted to ride away and know I didn't have anything big that was going to need doing.

[Coneamahfone]

its funny to see how people who sell things for a living differ in their views from people who buy things for a living.
I guess the take away here is, take what the seller says is their margins, and the buyer 'thinks' is the margins and pick a number between the two.
I can understand a fairly low margin in new bikes, and bikes traded with in the first few years. But i guess the margin gets better the older the bike gets?
But like you 'mostly' said, its only worth what someone will pay and a 5 year old bike with low k's is a great draw card for buyers and people are less willing to move the price on a perceived easy seller.

[CookMySock]

Make an insulting offer and walk away. Buy everything like this.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Make an insulting offer and walk away. Buy everything like this.

Fuck you're a tool. Maybe everyone should offer you 10 cents for your icecreams. Retard.

[Robbo]

Fuck you're a tool. Maybe everyone should offer you 10 cents for your icecreams. Retard.

Geeze Pete, you'd be paying way too much mate as content is 90% water and that's free. :lol:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Geeze Pete, you'd be paying way too much mate as content is 90% water and that's free. :lol:

Think you'll find his 'icecreams' have slightly different contents to most. Probably taste a tad salty.

[Muppet]

I know someone has to, but why you'd buy a brand new bike is beyond me. You'll always be the biggest loser of $$$$$

As far as all this extended warranty crap goes with regard to electrical goods, yet another con. I had a Bosch induction cook top throw its toys out of the cot a couple of years ago. It was out of it's 2-3 year warranty and the shop wasn't going to play ball. When I told them I don't expect something that cost (at the time) $3000 to fail after 2-3 years and quoted the Consumer Guarantees Act, they came to the party, I just paid for the labour which was bugger all.

I had a woman from an aluminium window company quote $2500 for a set of bi-folding windows. When I told her no thanks she said "Ok if I drop it to $1800 will you you sign up now?" So she was going to make money on $1800 and thought she'd throw in an extra $700 for good measure? Yeah right! I ended up getting wooden french doors from another bunch of assholes:tugger:, but that's for another day....

[Crasherfromwayback]

I know someone has to, but why would you buy a brand new bike is beyond me. You'll always be the biggest loser.

.

Because if you can afford new, there's nothing nicer. Out of god knows how many bikes I've owned, the new ones are always the nicest.

[mossy1200]

I think its hard to make general statments on profit margins. Lets say a clothes shop buys shorts for $10 and sells for $30. They make 200% margin on the cost price but when you add wages,power,lease,theft and so on the operating cost of the shorts could be $20 so profit is now 50%. when that shop has a sale and has 50% off the book profit is negative but they are clearing an item away that may become unsold and the profit from presale has covered the other costs. So while making money they are also not making money on paper.
Reduced return is better than no return if you only have 3 size smalls and 2 size xxl.

Bike shops are going to operate differently. When you order a part they may work on cost plus 30% which would be a good margin on a part that hasnt been stocked using the shops money for a unknown time frame to make money. If its on the floor and on display the margin needs to be higher to cover the risk of slow sale or no sale.

Moving to bikes. Some bikes will be owned by the shop and some will be on consignment. The shop owned bikes will need to return a good margin to cover investment say 15%-20% but they wont want to reduce this profit alot unless the bike has become hard to move. The consignment bikes could be sold at reduced margins as long as the shop sees a couple of k to make the sale worth while. You may find the sales staff will see a total cost(cost plus expenses figure) in alot of cases and the owner operator will be the only person able to slash prices as low as possible so the shop manager can be the best person to barter with when buying high price items.

Or what im saying could be utter crap and crasha will most likely say so.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Or what im saying could be utter crap and crasha will most likely say so.

What you're saying is quite right. But margins on new bikes are slimmer than most would think, used as well now days.

[Drew]

I think its hard to make general statments on profit margins. Lets say a clothes shop buys shorts for $10 and sells for $30. They make 200% margin on the cost price but when you add wages,power,lease,theft and so on the operating cost of the shorts could be $20 so profit is now 50%. when that shop has a sale and has 50% off the book profit is negative but they are clearing an item away that may become unsold and the profit from presale has covered the other costs. So while making money they are also not making money on paper.
Reduced return is better than no return if you only have 3 size smalls and 2 size xxl.

Bike shops are going to operate differently. When you order a part they may work on cost plus 30% which would be a good margin on a part that hasnt been stocked using the shops money for a unknown time frame to make money. If its on the floor and on display the margin needs to be higher to cover the risk of slow sale or no sale.

Moving to bikes. Some bikes will be owned by the shop and some will be on consignment. The shop owned bikes will need to return a good margin to cover investment say 15%-20% but they wont want to reduce this profit alot unless the bike has become hard to move. The consignment bikes could be sold at reduced margins as long as the shop sees a couple of k to make the sale worth while. You may find the sales staff will see a total cost(cost plus expenses figure) in alot of cases and the owner operator will be the only person able to slash prices as low as possible so the shop manager can be the best person to barter with when buying high price items.

Or what im saying could be utter crap and crasha will most likely say so.

But wait a second, you and I seem to understand how it works, but Coneamahfone said that only the sellers took this side of the argument.

I'm confused.

[5150]

Or what im saying could be utter crap and crasha will most likely say so.

We should start "Just ask Crasher" thread :bleh:

[Drew]

Wanted to explain what consignment stock is for those out of the know.

Essentially it's a wholesalers product on loan, you don't have to pay for it till you sell it. There is no or little difference to profit on them for what they are, there's just no cash outlay for the stock. So consignment stock also has a rising cost figure for time spent in the store.

[Crasherfromwayback]

We should start "Just ask Crasher" thread :bleh:

lol. No, because a lot don't like the answers they're given.

[Drew]

lol. No, because a lot don't like the answers they're given.

Making it an even fucken better idea...Back in a mo with the link.

[Drew]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151126-Just-ask-Carsher?p=1130352705#post1130352705

That was easy.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Because if you can afford new, there's nothing nicer. Out of god knows how many bikes I've owned, the new ones are always the nicest.

the other thing is if you intend to (or end up) keeping the vehicle for a long time: Owning from new means you know all its service history, and the bell curve flattens out a lot. I am tending to do that with cars, which are really just appliances, so they're on an 8 year replacement cycle. buying new also makes sense for a work vehicle (if you rbusiness is making a profit and you want to drive a new car and reduce your taxable income :) )

I know a guy whose business owned a "Forklift" that had a V twin engine and instead of Komatsu had a "Harley Davidson" badge.

[mossy1200]

Would i be correct to say that the increased savings on a run out model due to the next years version coming out would be because the shop has received a rebate from the NZ supplier to move the stock quickly so they can stock the latest model into the shops?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Would i be correct to say that the increased savings on a run out model due to the next years version coming out would be because the shop has received a rebate from the NZ supplier to move the stock quickly so they can stock the latest model into the shops?

Sometimes we get help, sometimes we wear it.

[mossy1200]

Sometimes we get help, sometimes we wear it.

Idd say that help is easier to get on consignment stock than rebates on shop owned stock:weep:

[ktm84mxc]

most shops work on a floor plan by which the importer supplys the new stock with financing through there own company eg YMF for Yamahas others use a third party what this means the shops are loaned the capital to carry the stock with a interest free period of 60-90 days after which you pay interest on the moneys. In real terms once outside the interest free period your profits are being eaten away each month by the interest charges . the same applys to car yards most hold stock for only 60 days then its time to get rid off them.
most shops run on a skeleton crew with the added costs of opening Sundays just not there, there's always the net that never closes and most large shops have a internet aspect to there retail business.

[Robert Taylor]

I know someone has to, but why you'd buy a brand new bike is beyond me. You'll always be the biggest loser of $$$$$

As far as all this extended warranty crap goes with regard to electrical goods, yet another con. I had a Bosch induction cook top throw its toys out of the cot a couple of years ago. It was out of it's 2-3 year warranty and the shop wasn't going to play ball. When I told them I don't expect something that cost (at the time) $3000 to fail after 2-3 years and quoted the Consumer Guarantees Act, they came to the party, I just paid for the labour which was bugger all.

I had a woman from an aluminium window company quote $2500 for a set of bi-folding windows. When I told her no thanks she said "Ok if I drop it to $1800 will you you sign up now?" So she was going to make money on $1800 and thought she'd throw in an extra $700 for good measure? Yeah right! I ended up getting wooden french doors from another bunch of assholes:tugger:, but that's for another day....

Of course someone has to buy them new to create secondhand..................

Also how many companies are going to the wall because they actually arent making enough profit to cover very real overheads. Think about it.

[Scotty595]

Paid 6k for my old ninja privately, then lowsided it out kawakawa bay (crash knobs saved most), traded it in - got 5k trade in with no chain (chain flew off randomly :doh:) and needing service. They advertised for $7995 a week later after service and chain.

Personally, I don't mind trading price for convenience.

[mossy1200]

Paid 6k for my old ninja privately, then lowsided it out kawakawa bay (crash knobs saved most), traded it in - got 5k trade in with no chain (chain flew off randomly :doh:) and needing service. They advertised for $7995 a week later after service and chain.

Personally, I don't mind trading price for convenience.

8k less 5k trade less 500 spent to get ready less sales wage and costs less discount for a offer around 7k =1500-2k profit if it sells fast sounds a fair margin to be in the sales and service game. If the shop cant turn profit it closes the doors.

Realistic trade in figure and your happy.

[p.dath]

I know someone has to, but why you'd buy a brand new bike is beyond me. You'll always be the biggest loser of $$$$$

I've never owned brand new - but I would love to. I just can't afford it.

Everytime I have bought a second-hand bike and I've been servicing it I always seem to find minor things wrong. Bolts missing. Things not quite done right. Nothing major, but I hate when I start to do a job and it ends with a list of other things that needs to be taken care of. It makes me feel like I've not quite finished.

A new bike comes with a nice new warranty. There is a good chance parts will be readily available. It will have all new fluids. The shocks and tyres will be in perfect condition. There won't be any scratches on it. Everything will be mint.

Oh so many reasons to get a brand new bike, if the money allowed.

[5150]

A new bike comes with a nice new warranty. There is a good chance parts will be readily available. It will have all new fluids. The shocks and tyres will be in perfect condition. There won't be any scratches on it. Everything will be mint.



Not if you are this guy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zNUPDmnz4

[Muppet]

I've never owned brand new - but I would love to. I just can't afford it.

Everytime I have bought a second-hand bike and I've been servicing it I always seem to find minor things wrong. Bolts missing. Things not quite done right. Nothing major, but I hate when I start to do a job and it ends with a list of other things that needs to be taken care of. It makes me feel like I've not quite finished.

A new bike comes with a nice new warranty. There is a good chance parts will be readily available. It will have all new fluids. The shocks and tyres will be in perfect condition. There won't be any scratches on it. Everything will be mint.

Oh so many reasons to get a brand new bike, if the money allowed.

I hear ya. But you've got to take the bike to the dealer for servicing for the length of the warranty and of course they'll charge like wounded bulls. My father bought a new Nissan 4 x 4 and some of the things included in the servicing was shit that didn't need doing like rubbing a wax stick on the door joints, that cost between $20 and $30! My personal favourite was "Environmental costs" which was PC speak for dumping the oil. And they charge $150 and hour labour! JOKE.

[Muppet]

Of course someone has to buy them new to create secondhand..................

Also how many companies are going to the wall because they actually arent making enough profit to cover very real overheads. Think about it.

Yes that's why I said at the beginning of the post "I know someone has to..." because I know someone has to! It's just not going to be me, think about that. As I've mentioned in another thread, in 2003 I bought a 2 year old mint 2001 R1 with 10-12000 km on the clock for $12,000. At the time they were $24,000 new.

[Road kill]

Only ever bought one bike from a shop,,asked for an got a new helmet free.
Most bikes I've bought second hand I got for less than the asking price.
A couple were after I'd given the guy my phone number an said "ring me if you change your mind.
I've often dropped price on things I've sold myself,,when I've liked the buyer.
But I've also told a couple of people to bugger off when they've done the walk around pointing out little dings an such thing,that's just stupid an if they wanted spotless they should of been in a shop buying new.
Haggling for me goes both ways but neither party should be dicks about it.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Of course someone has to buy them new to create secondhand..................

Also how many companies are going to the wall because they actually arent making enough profit to cover very real overheads. Think about it.

I have been: the old adage of how to make a small fortune in the motorcycle trade (start with a large one) seems increasingly apt.

[FROSTY]

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin), and can generally afford to go a lot lower than you'd think. but you wont know until you ask.

UTTER RUBBISH-what bike shop or car dealership have you been employed at in a senior role is the last 5 years or so?
100% --so a $15k bike cost the dealership on the floor 7.5k did it?

[Akzle]

[COLOR=#139922][COLOR=#222222]
UTTER RUBBISH-what bike shop or car dealership have you been employed at in a senior role is the last 5 years or so?
100% --so a $15k bike cost the dealership on the floor 7.5k did it?

you need to read a bit further through the thread. that question has been answered.

"at in a senior role is the last 5 years or so?".... you should also do a "does it make sense" check before charging off on your pretentious high horse.

[Bassmatt]

anything you can pay cash for should be 15% straight off, especially if they're offering "finance"



Those days are well and truly gone, IME. I have been told several times in various types of shops that the sticker price is the "cash" price. I think some shops even have "cash price" printed on the sticker.
Its a bit sad that the best path to profit lies in creating debt (through finance). It works out best for us all in the long run tho, right?...:facepalm:

[Robert Taylor]

Those days are well and truly gone, IME. I have been told several times in various types of shops that the sticker price is the "cash" price. I think some shops even have "cash price" printed on the sticker.
Its a bit sad that the best path to profit lies in creating debt (through finance). It works out best for us all in the long run tho, right?...:facepalm:

What would be best in the long run is a return to sensible and sustainable margins for big ticket items, that in turn will allow more realistic wage rates. Plus a rejection of dutch auction mentality.

[Robert Taylor]

you need to read a bit further through the thread. that question has been answered.

"at in a senior role is the last 5 years or so?".... you should also do a "does it make sense" check before charging off on your pretentious high horse.

Frosty had every right to challenge your naive assertions and you cannot justify your indignance at him doing so in citing that posts that immediately followed yours clarified how abysmal margins actually are. Too much is based on emotive assumptions, and if people make such ridiculous assertions they have to in turn be prepared to take the heat, in this case condemnation from a person in the motor trade who actually knows what its all about.
I remember well a farmer telling me one day that he ''screwed down a machinery company to the nth degree on a cowshed installation, and that the salesman went away virtually crying''. This miserable penny pinching prick was laughing about it and I gave him a frosty response. To the effect ''can I go into a dairy and negotiate a better price on the milk that he supplies?" Hypocrite.
All businesses have the right to make a fair and reasonable profit and to pay their staff well.

[GTRMAN]

it's all negotiation, who and wherever you're buying from.
generally pick what YOU think the item is worth, what it's advertised for, and go 100% again down, to start negotiations. ie if you think it's worth 175$, it's advo'd at 200, you start negotiations at 150$.

Advertised price - $200
Your perceived value - $175 (87.5% of the advertised price)
Start offer - $150 (75% of the advertised price)

If Johnny has 1 apple and you give him another, his total number of apples has gone up by 100%. If he then eats half an apple his total number of apples has decreased by 25% You forget that percentages are a ratio, not an absolute.


something is only worth what the seller is willing to sell it for.
a lathe might be bought for 2k$, but to an engineer that's his livelihood, so it's worht infinitely more. a boat at 16k$, but again, a fishmonger's livelihood.


anything you can pay cash for should be 15% straight off, especially if they're offering "finance"

i've known people ot walk out of car yards with <50% off stickered price (the salesman was nearly crying). just walk around the car and point to every dent, scratch, uneven tyre wear etc etc etc.

consider that most stores have ~100% markup (profit margin), and can generally afford to go a lot lower than you'd think. but you wont know until you ask.



The text in bold is close captioned for the thinking impaired.

[Coldrider]

The text in bold is close captioned for the thinking impaired.Thanks for the sanity, i was thinking integers, floats and long longs, but had never considered randoms.

[onearmedbandit]

The text in bold is close captioned for the thinking impaired.

I think you're missing what he's trying to say.

Advertised price is $200.
He thinks it's worth $175 ergo $25 less.
Take this 'less' figure, add 100% of its value to it (ie double it).
Gives you a starting figure of $150.

[Robert Taylor]

The text in bold is close captioned for the thinking impaired.

Of course the main impairment is the naive assumption that there is huge margin in selling motorcycles. Its ( cynically ) a perverse game when the buyer not only wants the lowest possible price but also'' wants retail'' for his trade. Or so it often seems.

[Crasherfromwayback]

a perverse game when the buyer not only wants the lowest possible price but also'' wants retail'' for his trade.

Welcome to my world.

[onearmedbandit]

Welcome to my world.

And mine...

[Maha]

Of course the main impairment is the naive assumption that there is huge margin in selling motorcycles. Its ( cynically ) a perverse game when the buyer not only wants the lowest possible price but also'' wants retail'' for his trade. Or so it often seems.


Welcome to my world.


And mine...

.......and never will a buyer ever get that result.

I once went to the North Shore looking to trade my sprint on a daytona ...salesman offered me (what I thought was) $2K under what I would have been happy with, as a trade..
$6k for my sprint...:rolleyes: (Daytona was on the floor @ $14.495)
I said ''make it $7K (was looking for 8K) and we'll do the paper work''.
He told me to sell it privately and come back and see him.

My thought was...if I sell it privately, I wont be coming back.
Bike was sold on TM for $9K a few weeks later.
The CB was purchased soon after........brand new, from a local shop.

Moral here is...if some wants to make a deal happen...make it work, for both party's.

[Akzle]

Frosty had every right to challenge your naive assertions and you cannot justify your indignance at him doing so in citing that posts that immediately followed yours clarified how abysmal margins actually are. ...
All businesses have the right to make a fair and reasonable profit and to pay their staff well.

i can justify MY indignation any way I want thank YOU very much.

that asides. some dick who follows me around the internet then disagrees with my post without reading further on, where i qualify my statement and am then proven otherwise by people more knowledgable than me... well, that guy's a dick.

i'm not questioning any businesses' "rights", nor staff's pay.

[DMNTD]

Welcome to my world.


And mine...

Yerp...and mine too :rolleyes:
I used to get a bit pissed off but now I simply say no and offer our best price.
I expect people to have a crack/haggle but sometimes it really is just a joke what people expect.

[nzspokes]

Welcome to my world.

But you Motorcycle shop workers are all loaded, you must get paid well!!!!! :bleh:

I do have to say there are some really crap salespeople out there. Not aimed at you at all Pete. Some shops I went to I had to beg to talk to a salesman.

[Robert Taylor]

.......and never will a buyer ever get that result.

I once went to the North Shore looking to trade my sprint on a daytona ...salesman offered me (what I thought was) $2K under what I would have been happy with, as a trade..
$6k for my sprint...:rolleyes: (Daytona was on the floor @ $14.495)
I said ''make it $7K (was looking for 8K) and we'll do the paper work''.
He told me to sell it privately and come back and see him.

My thought was...if I sell it privately, I wont be coming back.
Bike was sold on TM for $9K a few weeks later.
The CB was purchased soon after........brand new, from a local shop.

Moral here is...if some wants to make a deal happen...make it work, for both party's.

It sounds like the salesman could have made better word choices and been more diplomatic perhaps? And to the effect ''if we dont have to trade your bike we can sharpen the pencil a little on the new one''. Thats a good price you got for the bike you otherwise would have traded and perhaps this happened in a market that is way more ''fluid'' than it is now? But conversely many times erstwhile purchasers have gone off to try and privately sell their motorcycles to find that it isnt so easy to get the price they expected, or to even get any solid interest beyond ''tyre kickers''.
The part I really like is you ended up buying off your local.

[Robert Taylor]

i can justify MY indignation any way I want thank YOU very much.

that asides. some dick who follows me around the internet then disagrees with my post without reading further on, where i qualify my statement and am then proven otherwise by people more knowledgable than me... well, that guy's a dick.

i'm not questioning any businesses' "rights", nor staff's pay.

I stand resolutely by what I said on the basis of what you first said, that made your statements look like the word choice you used to describe Frosty. And no amount of later qualification will alter what over the years I and many others have evidenced from buyers who dont care one iota whether your business can survive. Many who play this game in asking for ridiculous and unsustainable discounts are in fact ( technically ) insulting.
( Cynically ) what you in effect hear is ''Id like to assist you on your path to bankruptcy by beating you down to a price that is commercially unsustainable and if you are stupid enough to accept that. I also want a crazy price for my trade that doesnt take into account that there are not so obvious faults with it that I havent disclosed to you and your overdraft interest is going to kill you in carrying it on the floor in a market oversubscribed by competing dealers''. There are plenty of dodgy dealers out there BUT also there are plenty of dodgy customers.
The reality is there is always haggling about end price in any industry, my business is no different and we sharpen the pencil on many deals, but there must always be a line in the sand that is commercially sensible. Also its not always about the best price, its about value and (where required ) solid and knowledgable backup.

[Akzle]

I stand resolutely by what I said on the basis of what you first said,
i irresolutely stand by what i said, on the basis of what you said after i said what i said then you said what you said and that other guy said what he said without reading what else you and i had said...

we sharpen the pencil

does that hurt?

[jasonu]

[COLOR="#139922"]does that hurt?

It will if he stabs you in the leg with it because you tried to jew him too much...

[FROSTY]

you need to read a bit further through the thread. that question has been answered.

"at in a senior role is the last 5 years or so?".... you should also do a "does it make sense" check before charging off on your pretentious high horse.
DOOFUS-you diddn't answer your STATEMENT OF FACT. You tried to qualify it with a whole bunch of rubbish. Ohh cars/bikes have huge margins on em yet you have NO substance to back it up.
Ohh and YES I do have substance to back up my statement that you are talking utter rubbish.

[FROSTY]

most shops THAT DONT STAY IN BUISINESS VERY LONG work on a floor plan by which the importer supplys the new stock with financing through there own company eg YMF for Yamahas others use a third party what this means the shops are loaned the capital to carry the stock with a interest free period of 60-90 days after which you pay interest on the moneys. In real terms once outside the interest free period your profits are being eaten away each month by the interest charges . the same applys to car yards most hold stock for only 60 days then its time to get rid off them.
most shops run on a skeleton crew with the added costs of opening Sundays just not there, there's always the net that never closes and most large shops have a internet aspect to there retail business.
There you go I edited that for you. If a bike shop/car dealership wants to go into receivership floorplan is a pretty good way to get there.
The dealerships that last own their own stock

[Crasherfromwayback]

There you go I edited that for you. If a bike shop/car dealership wants to go into receivership floorplan is a pretty good way to get there.
The dealerships that last own their own stock

Yeah we own all of ours unless there's a model the distributor wants us to stock that we don't really want. That and the odd on behalf sale we do for peeps.

[FROSTY]

Would i be correct to say that the increased savings on a run out model due to the next years version coming out would be because the shop has received a rebate from the NZ supplier to move the stock quickly so they can stock the latest model into the shops?
Thats one reason --the other is that they know that the New model will be pretty much the same price as the old model so they need to get the stock gone before they drop their prices like stone

[FROSTY]

And mine...
And mine.......

[FROSTY]

Yeah we own all of ours unless there's a model the distributor wants us to stock that we don't really want. That and the odd on behalf sale we do for peeps.
Yep thats exactly how I run my company. Only time I might have "consighnment" stock is if the yen looks like heading back up in a few days-then I'll hold out on paying a few days-a couple of weeks on cars that have arrived.

[Coldrider]

The only time a salesman walks away crying is when he is liquidating his stock into any form of cashflow to feed the kids. At this stage he is already broke and knows it. That is the difference between a ordinary sale and the beliefs (anyone can publish on the interenet) viewed here.
The rest is the 'frogs in the pond' theory.

[Maha]

It sounds like the salesman could have made better word choices and been more diplomatic perhaps? And to the effect ''if we dont have to trade your bike we can sharpen the pencil a little on the new one''. Thats a good price you got for the bike you otherwise would have traded and perhaps this happened in a market that is way more ''fluid'' than it is now? But conversely many times erstwhile purchasers have gone off to try and privately sell their motorcycles to find that it isnt so easy to get the price they expected, or to even get any solid interest beyond ''tyre kickers''.
The part I really like is you ended up buying off your local.

I will add also that, the Ohlins fitted to the front and rear was a selling point on TM, not so as a trade.

[nzspokes]

I will add also that, the Ohlins fitted to the front and rear was a selling point on TM, not so as a trade.

Hows ya rebound? :shifty:

[Oscar]

Some actual negotiating tips.


Do some research. Check on prices for similar things elsewhere. What sort of margin is typically in play? Did he trade the bike that you're trying to buy? Is the bike of the same franchise (a Honda shop won't like having a Suzuki hanging about for too long)?
Start low (you can go up, but you can't go down), but don't be insulting or silly (offering half the asking price is just gonna piss them off).
Remind them of previous business and/or future patronage. Maybe say that when you've bought this bike, you'd like to talk accessories or helmets.
If you have a trade, argue about the difference, not the new bike price and your trade.
If you have a trade, research its value. Allow a reasonable margin off retail.
Non-monetary items. If you get stuck on the cash price, ask for a discount on some gear or to have the first service thrown in (some dealers hate the thought of the workshop being idle, so suggest that if he gives you a free service you'll be happy to bring it on a slack day).
Try to think of something that is important to you, but not to the dealer. Maybe ask to swap accessories off of the old bike.
Important: be prepared to walk away. Maybe you come back later. but there's not much point in trying to negotiate on something that it's obvious you couldn't live without.
Most important: For any negotiation, the first person to name a price usually loses. Car dealers always say "..what do you think your trade is worth?". If you say 10k and he was thinking 11k, I doubt he going to skin up the extra grand. Just say: "You're the dealer, whaddya you reckon it's worth?" I used this line selling a V Strom that I was prepared to take $8,500 for and got $9,400.


Now I know most of these are pretty obvious, but it's about preparation and strategy.
Walk into a buying or selling situation without having given it some thought and you'll get screwed.

[Robert Taylor]

Some actual negotiating tips.


Do some research. Check on prices for similar things elsewhere. What sort of margin is typically in play? Did he trade the bike that you're trying to buy? Is the bike of the same franchise (a Honda shop won't like having a Suzuki hanging about for too long)?
Start low (you can go up, but you can't go down), but don't be insulting or silly (offering half the asking price is just gonna piss them off).
Remind them of previous business and/or future patronage. Maybe say that when you've bought this bike, you'd like to talk accessories or helmets.
If you have a trade, argue about the difference, not the new bike price and your trade.
If you have a trade, research its value. Allow a reasonable margin off retail.
Non-monetary items. If you get stuck on the cash price, ask for a discount on some gear or to have the first service thrown in (some dealers hate the thought of the workshop being idle, so suggest that if he gives you a free service you'll be happy to bring it on a slack day).
Try to think of something that is important to you, but not to the dealer. Maybe ask to swap accessories off of the old bike.
Important: be prepared to walk away. Maybe you come back later. but there's not much point in trying to negotiate on something that it's obvious you couldn't live without.
Most important: For any negotiation, the first person to name a price usually loses. Car dealers always say "..what do you think your trade is worth?". If you say 10k and he was thinking 11k, I doubt he going to skin up the extra grand. Just say: "You're the dealer, whaddya you reckon it's worth?" I used this line selling a V Strom that I was prepared to take $8,500 for and got $9,400.


Now I know most of these are pretty obvious, but it's about preparation and strategy.
Walk into a buying or selling situation without having given it some thought and you'll get screwed.

And if there are issues with the bike be honest, after all you expect complete honesty from the salesman, so it should work both ways.

[Robert Taylor]

I will add also that, the Ohlins fitted to the front and rear was a selling point on TM, not so as a trade.

Actually you raise a very valid point. With very few exceptions most aftermarket accessories will not add value to the bike when trading in. In your case you may have effected a faster private sale because it had high end aftermarket suspension fitted, you may also have got a slightly higher price.
With respect to suspension not everyone realises the value of excellent suspension, yet.
What we always advise is to remove the suspension units and replace with stock prior to trade in time, you will always realise greater value by either ;

1) If feasible having it re-spec'd to suit your new bike

or 2 ) trading used ( Ohlins ) for new ( Ohlins )

or 3) Onselling via Trade Me / KB etc.

[FROSTY]

And if there are issues with the bike be honest, after all you expect complete honesty from the salesman, so it should work both ways.
ROTFLMAO -omg Rob you have got to be kidding. -Tell the truth-The publec tell the truth??
Thats the funniest thing I heard all week.
-I just walked in from a customer who told me no his car did not have a blown head gasket.
"hmm the oil cap is full of grey sludge,Theres grey sludge on the dipstick theres whits sludge in the water and its running on 3.5 cylinders-but no it hasn't got a blown head gasket??"

[FROSTY]

I will add also that, the Ohlins fitted to the front and rear was a selling point on TM, not so as a trade.
What would you have sold the Ohlins stuff for if you had refitted the factory stuff?

[Maha]

What would you have sold the Ohlins stuff for if you had refitted the factory stuff?

The old stuff got chucked, why would anyone want to hang onto crap.
The rear shock and front internals cost $2.5K all up from memory.
But this was back in 07'.