PDA

View Full Version : Christchurch crash facts



Pages : [1] 2

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 10:33
Hi y'all

Crook as a dog today, which keeps me away from the office. However, it doesn't keep me away from the iPad.

Just want to share some interesting facts I dredged up a couple of weeks back from our crash analyst.

I wanted to find out the pattern of crashes involving motorcyclists in Christchurch. I was looking for a pattern, or at least a trend. I'm looking for a way to deploy our resources to try to reduce the crashes. I know enforcement isn't the only answer, but it's one of the answers, and given that we have very limited resources, it made sense to me to target the little resource we have where and when we'll have the best chance of having an effect.

Crashes happen in Chur Chur to a pattern, predictably so. Monday to Friday they tend to happen in the morning peak and afternoon peak, related to volumes of traffic, and tend to be crossing and turning crashes. Failing to give way, failing to see the oncoming bike, those sorts of things.

Saturday and Sunday, however, the proportion changes, heavily toward loss of control crashes on the Akaroa highway. A la the Akaroa GP.

So, no surprises there then. Loss of control on the open road, crossing and turning in peak traffic on the city streets. Yawn.

Of course, there's always the knob who loses control and hits a pole on city streets, and the odd crash on the highways where someone SMIDSYs a biker.

So, the Chur Chur motorcycle Popos will be targeting crap driving on the city streets during the peaks, and using a laser to keep speeds down on the Akaroa road at the weekends.

Any comments on that?

HenryDorsetCase
19th July 2012, 10:37
catch me if you can copper!!!!

Scuba_Steve
19th July 2012, 10:59
Crook as a dog today, which keeps me away from the office. However, it doesn't keep me away from the iPad.
.....
So, the Chur Chur motorcycle Popos will be targeting crap driving on the city streets during the peaks, and using a laser to keep speeds down on the Akaroa road at the weekends.

Any comments on that?

Yea.
1stly damm boy an iPad!, you must be good at achieving those quotas "KPI's" ay, this is well up from the usual donuts & toasters
2ndly speed scams are dangerous, & well, are scams! so you shouldn't be running them anyways. Leave the scamming to the Nigerians & Russians they're better at it.
3rdly you forgot to sign off with "Donuts"

Vodka!

Berries
19th July 2012, 11:02
Any comments on that?
Only that I am very surprised that you haven't been targeting to risk for years like they have down south.

oneofsix
19th July 2012, 11:19
City; police the small transgressions as indicators the operator is not paying attention/not taking vehicle control seriously enough. Drinking coffee is not more important than indicating or checking your mirrors, the coffee can wait.

Akaroa GP; only use the laser on the black spots. None of this using the laser to rack up tickets on straights were the speed is reasonably safe. Again policing the small transgressions can be a wake up call to the vehicle operator but be prepared to hand out a higher % of warnings.

Remember in both cases the stat is the lower crash rate not a higher ticket rate.

:Playnice:

Otherwise I don't care because those roads are still on my to do list.

Note to self: take donuts when/if I ride south of the strait.

Paul in NZ
19th July 2012, 11:22
Funnily enough - I think thats actually pretty interesting.

In town motorcyclists are vulnerable to being hit by other traffic (be interesting to break that down more to see how many incidents coincided with filtering at the time). But on the open road its mostly speed / loss of control.

This is surely the sort of stuff the motorcycle safety council should be aware of. Targetted training that address this would be good.

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 12:00
Yea.
1stly damm boy an iPad!, you must be good at achieving those quotas "KPI's" ay, this is well up from the usual donuts & toasters
2ndly speed scams are dangerous, & well, are scams! so you shouldn't be running them anyways. Leave the scamming to the Nigerians & Russians they're better at it.
3rdly you forgot to sign off with "Donuts"

Vodka!

1stly, it's my wifes iPad.

2ndly, if it was a speed scam, would I be publicizing it?

3rdly, Donuts.

4thly, by signing off with Vodka you've revealed yourself as a Russian scammer. You and your Nigerian friends should stick to Chardonnay.

Scuba_Steve
19th July 2012, 12:12
2ndly, if it was a speed scam, would I be publicizing it?

It's been publicized for a good decade or 2, why stop now?
lots of scams are publicized it helps get "customers"




4thly, by signing off with Vodka you've revealed yourself as a Russian scammer. You and your Nigerian friends should stick to Chardonnay.

дерьмо они знают мой секрет товарищей

I don't like Char donn, ay!


Merlot!

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 12:16
дерьмо они знают мой секрет товарищей

Я не твой тайный друг

:brick:

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 12:21
At the risk of repeating myself, if you don't want to get speeding tickets, dont get caught speeding.

:wacko:

(can of worms approaching the opener.........)

Shadowjack
19th July 2012, 12:22
Where's my Babel Fish when I need it...

Asher
19th July 2012, 12:28
At the risk of repeating myself, if you don't want to get speeding tickets, dont get caught speeding.

:wacko:

(can of worms approaching the opener.........)

:Police::Police::shake::shake::ride::ride::scooter ::scooter::blip::blip:

Scuba_Steve
19th July 2012, 12:28
Я не твой тайный друг

:brick:

ха-ха думаю, что-то потерялось при переводе

Scuba_Steve
19th July 2012, 12:36
At the risk of repeating myself, if you don't want to get speeding tickets, dont get caught speeding.

:wacko:

(can of worms approaching the opener.........)

Yea that works well I hear...

"A forklift based in Invercargill, on the southern tip of New Zealand's southern island, has been booked for speeding at 119km/h on the Kapiti Coast, at the southern end of the northern island.

Police had identified the forklift belonging to Lindsay Carrying Co as the offending vehicle , despite it never having left Invercargill and having a top speed of 19km/h.

Assistant manager Shelley Kempton said she thought it must have been a joke when she opened a letter from police." :facepalm:

merv
19th July 2012, 12:48
Speed things is a waste of time I would have thought as presumably most of the Akaroa GP crashes are on the curvy bits at under legal limit anyway.

I'd say target video camera shots sitting on the hill by a known blackspot and watch behaviour - disregard for yellow lines, passing towards oncoming traffic and all that "dangerous" stuff. On that road too many bikers lean hard going into corners hanging over the centre line or crossing it, then get the holy shit feeling when someone comes the other way - they try and swerve out the way and end up going off the edge of the road etc etc. They won't be doing 100 at the time though on those tight curves.

Remember this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/144252-Diavel-crash-on-the-Akaroa-Hill-Info-wanted?highlight=diavel+akaroa

HenryDorsetCase
19th July 2012, 12:49
Моё судно на воздушной подушке полно угрей

Ender EnZed
19th July 2012, 13:26
So, the Chur Chur motorcycle Popos will be targeting crap driving on the city streets during the peaks, and using a laser to keep speeds down on the Akaroa road at the weekends.

Any comments on that?

What have they been doing before this change?

oneofsix
19th July 2012, 13:49
What have they been doing before this change?

Eating donuts, drinking Chardonnay and learning Russian.

Berries
19th July 2012, 14:08
Funnily enough - I think thats actually pretty interesting.

In town motorcyclists are vulnerable to being hit by other traffic (be interesting to break that down more to see how many incidents coincided with filtering at the time). But on the open road its mostly speed / loss of control.

This is surely the sort of stuff the motorcycle safety council should be aware of. Targetted training that address this would be good.
Interesting, but stating the obvious. Isn't it? In town the majority of crashes are at intersections because you have conflict between two vehicles. In rural areas you still have issues at intersections but there are longer stretches in between, some of them with curves, and people tend to fall off them.

If you were looking at training then in urban areas it has to be defensive riding, in rural areas awareness of the road, the conditions and your riding. If you were looking at enforcement you'd sit at a signalised intersection and bust people for running red lights all day and in rural areas sit on a long straight with the laser. And eat donuts.

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 14:17
Speed things is a waste of time I would have thought as presumably most of the Akaroa GP crashes are on the curvy bits at under legal limit anyway.

I'd say target video camera shots sitting on the hill by a known blackspot and watch behaviour - disregard for yellow lines, passing towards oncoming traffic and all that "dangerous" stuff. On that road too many bikers lean hard going into corners hanging over the centre line or crossing it, then get the holy shit feeling when someone comes the other way - they try and swerve out the way and end up going off the edge of the road etc etc. They won't be doing 100 at the time though on those tight curves.

Remember this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/144252-Diavel-crash-on-the-Akaroa-Hill-Info-wanted?highlight=diavel+akaroa

Okay Merv, I'll send the guys out with a laser and a video camera. Hadn't thought of that.

yod
19th July 2012, 14:21
Eating donuts, drinking Chardonnay and learning Russian.

266610

10 effing chars

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 14:23
Eating donuts, drinking Chardonnay and learning Russian.

Мое судно на воздушной подушке нагрузки угрей только пролитый на проезжую часть. Я лучший очистить их, прежде чем некоторые бедные мотоциклист скользит по ним.

http://translate.google.com/#en|ru|My%20hovercraft%20load%20of%20eels%20has%20 just%20spilled%20onto%20the%20roadway.%20I%20had%2 0best%20clean%20them%20up%20before%20some%20poor%2 0motorcyclist%20slips%20on%20them.

Edbear
19th July 2012, 14:23
Interesting to know the stats on actual speeds at accidents. How many are injured or killed at high speeds compared to those travelling under the speed limit?

I agree too many riders are overestimating their ability and crashing at high speed and have little sympathy for anyone caught and ticketed but my observations in over 40 years on the roads are that the general populace are less skilled and have difficulty in travelling within 20km/h of the limits.

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 14:25
What have they been doing before this change?

Traffic lights, cellphones, seatbelts, escorting sports events, VIP tours, stop signs.

And eating donuts.

Edbear
19th July 2012, 14:27
Okay Merv, I'll send the guys out with a laser and a video camera. Hadn't thought of that.

Would make great TV like Motorway Patrol but call it Akaroa Patrol. Look how popular MP and 10-7 and that trucking camera programmes are.

Post your vids on KB for international exposure...

oneofsix
19th July 2012, 14:29
Would make great TV like Motorway Patrol but call it Akaroa Patrol. Look how popular MP and 10-7 and that trucking camera programmes are.

Post your vids on KB for international exposure...

I was thinking more like the Mullholand Dr vids on you-tube. Special edition just for KB :2thumbsup

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 14:30
Interesting to know the stats on actual speeds at accidents. How many are injured or killed at high speeds compared to those travelling under the speed limit?

I agree too many riders are overestimating their ability and crashing at high speed and have little sympathy for anyone caught and ticketed but my observations in over 40 years on the roads are that the general populace are less skilled and have difficulty in travelling within 20km/h of the limits.

Its not possible to be exactly where a future crash will happen in order to slow down the participants and reduce the kinetic energy dissipated in the impact.

It is possible to use high profile enforcement and publicity to increase the perception of the likelihood of detection, and reduce the occurrence of speed in excess of that appropriate to the prevailing conditions.

:banana:

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 14:31
I was thinking more like the Mullholand Dr vids on you-tube. Special edition just for KB :2thumbsup

A name for it?

Cooptown Cockups?

oneofsix
19th July 2012, 14:37
A name for it?

Cooptown Cockups?

I guess that name is local knowledge dependant and I haven't yet had the pleasure. I was thinking Chardonnay shenanigans with Akaroa have a French influence.

Edbear
19th July 2012, 14:38
Its not possible to be exactly where a future crash will happen in order to slow down the participants and reduce the kinetic energy dissipated in the impact.

It is possible to use high profile enforcement and publicity to increase the perception of the likelihood of detection, and reduce the occurrence of speed in excess of that appropriate to the prevailing conditions.

:banana:

What are your observations from accidents as to the proportion of those where speed inappropriate for the conditions compares with pure incompetence at any speed?

Certainly a biker travelling in excess of 130km/h is several times more likely to crash but Nana Beryl and most younger immigrant drivers are frightening to watch at any speed...

Katman
19th July 2012, 14:47
but Nana Beryl and most younger immigrant drivers are frightening to watch at any speed...

Rest assured Ed, there's a number of motorcyclists out there that manage to fit that bill also.

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 14:48
What are your observations from accidents as to the proportion of those where speed inappropriate for the conditions compares with pure incompetence at any speed?

My observations include the fact that most of the Akaroa GP entrants wear leathers and ride bikes in an apparent attempt to make up for penis deficiencies. Of course, I'd have to scientifically back that up with a tape measure, but it's my own observation.

Certainly, if I were to stop someone and raise the issue of riding ability, virtually everyone thinks they are at least better than average. Even if I speak to them after they have binned, they still find something else to blame. Tyres, the road surface, the corner, the brakes locking up, always something else to blame.

Almost always, riding ability is less than the rider perceives it to be. Risk perceived subjectively and objectively are very different.

266611

HenryDorsetCase
19th July 2012, 14:52
My observations include the fact that most of the Akaroa GP entrants wear leathers and ride bikes in an apparent attempt to make up for penis deficiencies. Of course, I'd have to scientifically back that up with a tape measure, but it's my own observation.

Certainly, if I were to stop someone and raise the issue of riding ability, virtually everyone thinks they are at least better than average. Even if I speak to them after they have binned, they still find something else to blame. Tyres, the road surface, the corner, the brakes locking up, always something else to blame.

Almost always, riding ability is less than the rider perceives it to be. Risk perceived subjectively and objectively are very different.


my penis is tiny. but thats OK my bike goes real fast.

oneofsix
19th July 2012, 14:53
my penis is tiny. but thats OK my bike goes real fast.

only counts if you have the racing leathers

Edbear
19th July 2012, 14:53
Rest assured Ed, there's a number of motorcyclists out there that manage to fit that bill also.

True dat! As he says below.. :brick:



My observations include the fact that most of the Akaroa GP entrants wear leathers and ride bikes in an apparent attempt to make up for penis deficiencies. Of course, I'd have to scientifically back that up with a tape measure, but it's my own observation.

Certainly, if I were to stop someone and raise the issue of riding ability, virtually everyone thinks they are at least better than average. Even if I speak to them after they have binned, they still find something else to blame. Tyres, the road surface, the corner, the brakes locking up, always something else to blame.

Almost always, riding ability is less than the rider perceives it to be. Risk perceived subjectively and objectively are very different.

266611

"My fault? How can it be my fault, when the tyres just gave way, or the brakes locked up on me..?" :whistle:

Asher
19th July 2012, 14:58
The biggest danger for me on the Akaroa Highway is those bloody tourists. The amount of close calls ive had on that road is far higher than any other road i ride around Canterbury and it almost always involves an Avis sticker on the back window or something similar.

Ender EnZed
19th July 2012, 15:05
The biggest danger for me on the Akaroa Highway is those bloody tourists. The amount of close calls ive had on that road is far higher than any other road i ride around Canterbury and it almost always involves an Avis sticker on the back window or something similar.

On the back window eh? So you've been having close calls with vehicles you've been following?

HenryDorsetCase
19th July 2012, 15:07
Akaroa GP tips:

Dont go hard on that road because the consequences of a cockup will be bad, mkay.

If you are pressing on, wear good gear, and dont ride like a complete fuckwit.

Go early. Aim to be in Akkas before 9am if leaving from town. Most tourists are cruising and get there mid to late morning.

But: if early: there tend to be a few more trucks on the road.

Be very careful of bad repairs and shingle where you least expect it.

For maximum enjoyment, leave your sportbike at home, and ride a pushbike.

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 15:23
"My fault? How can it be my fault, when the tyres just gave way, or the brakes locked up on me..?"

Zackery. :crazy:

oneofsix
19th July 2012, 15:32
A name for it?

Cooptown Cockups?

wakey wakey something just twigged. Shouldn't that be Cooplands Cockups? Your donut sponsors?

Asher
19th July 2012, 15:33
On the back window eh? So you've been having close calls with vehicles you've been following?

Yup, normally while following, ive gone that road enough times to know where and where not to think about passing so i ride patiently till then.
But i have come across cars stopped on the road so they can take pics, driving 10-15kmh and trying to read maps, do u-turns around blind corners, blindly pull out from car parks at Little River and the other Bays towards Akaroa.
Theres some pretty terrible driving happening on that road yet i almost never see a cop the Akaroa side of Little River, i guess they are after all of the speeders on the Taitapu side.

Another one to look out for on that hill is over heated cars towing boats.

willytheekid
19th July 2012, 15:36
Akaroa!

Yeah no thanks!, its why I don't do the wensday night runs...or sunday runs, every friggin time "lets go to akaroa!!", or its "lets piss around on the port hils till someone crashes"....screw that!

Last run I went on (years ago) over to..you guessed it...Akaroa!, I had some Rossi wannabe carve through the KB group like it was a bloody race track, he clipped my front wheel as he dangerously cut into the pack (To avoid head on traffic no less)...I was so close to dropping the Guzzi(A wee tank slap ensued)...And then the gutless little bugger proceeded to legged it! (...not like I was gonna throw him down a bank or anything...:yes: shhhh...I WAS gonna...a tad angry I was :innocent:)

I find the bikes ARE the biggest risk on that road, I generally stay away from it, just to many idiots exceeding there abilities and its usually always at the cost of others.

I look forward to an increased police presence on that friggin road...AND during rush hour around town, I see some bloody dangerous drivers on my daily ride in & out of work everyday...yet not a single cop?...none! (and everyone seems too know it...so they drive like bloody manics in heavy traffic...can be damn scary some days)

...come too think of it...I havn't even seen YOU on the road for a looooong time Mr Rastuscat?, I hope all is well with you the bike and the family :yes: (We just had our baby Girl arrive 4 weeks ago (winter rose):woohoo:..two of them to worry about now!...so tired!..ageing rapidly! lol)

ps: How is your officer progressing after the smidsy?, no lasting damage etc I hope, and I certainly hope you passed on all our thoughts & support

neels
19th July 2012, 15:46
No surprise in those stats....

I'd be interested to know how the stats for mon-fri break down, who's at fault, and how many are scooters vs motorcycles. Of particular interest would be scooters in cycle lanes and motorcycles using bus lanes getting cleaned up by right turning traffic, no agenda, just interested as I've seen so many near misses.

The road to Akaroa is not somewhere I go if I'm in a hurry, there is far too much random behavior from drivers and other motorcyclists. Police presence wouldn't worry me as I ride like a nana and I'm well aware that my ability is well below my bike's capability, that still didn't prevent me almost getting taken out by a right turning vehicle.

Katman
19th July 2012, 15:54
that still didn't prevent me almost getting taken out by a right turning vehicle.

No, your eyes prevent that.

5150
19th July 2012, 16:01
Traffic lights, cellphones, seatbelts, escorting sports events, VIP tours, stop signs.

And eating donuts.

You forgot "chaufering PM's to sports events at high rate of knots" :whistle:

5150
19th July 2012, 16:05
My observations include the fact that most of the Akaroa GP entrants wear leathers and ride bikes in an apparent attempt to make up for penis deficiencies. Of course, I'd have to scientifically back that up with a tape measure, but it's my own observation.





So next time I am in Akaroa on my cruiser and I see you standing there with a Laser and a measuring tape, do I stop and pull my pants down? :crazy:

The Lone Rider
19th July 2012, 16:06
Can you PLEASE get somebody to do something about that shitty sockborn round about.

Can't say it's comforting to be in the emergency room with my arm off a fractured joint, and the nurses telling me they get people from there all the time.

Which is what they said... not long after the attending police and ambulance said the same thing at the accident.

HenryDorsetCase
19th July 2012, 16:07
So next time I am in Akaroa on my cruiser and I see you standing there with a Laser and a measuring tape, do I stop and pull my pants down? :crazy:

You're riding a cruiser, so surely the default riding gear is pants with no arse in anyway?

5150
19th July 2012, 16:12
You're riding a cruiser, so surely the default riding gear is pants with no arse in anyway?

sshhh. Had to say cruiser. Hornet is way too fast for that road and it makes my penis look smaller :psst:

Asher
19th July 2012, 16:15
Can you PLEASE get somebody to do something about that shitty sockborn round about.

Can't say it's comforting to be in the emergency room with my arm off a fractured joint, and the nurses telling me they get people from there all the time.

Which is what they said... not long after the attending police and ambulance said the same thing at the accident.

Drivers either dont use their indicators so you cant tell where they are going, or over use it so you cant tell where they are going on that roundabout

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 18:25
You forgot "chaufering PM's to sports events at high rate of knots" :whistle:

Nope. In the 5 years since we got bikes back in Chur Chur we have never escorted the PM.

puddytat
19th July 2012, 18:43
Its funny that probably half of the Heroes of the Akaroa gp are too scared to ride around Ruapuna....

Kickaha
19th July 2012, 18:59
Any comments on that?
Yeah, fucking good job, pity you weren't about to ticket the wanker on the Ninja tonight using the cycle lane for his own passing lane while riding like a cock

Theres some pretty terrible driving happening on that road
There's some fucking shit riding as well

The Lone Rider
19th July 2012, 19:04
Drivers either dont use their indicators so you cant tell where they are going, or over use it so you cant tell where they are going on that roundabout

If that was all there was to it, then why is it the Sockborn one that is so problematic? There are other roundabouts for people to not indicate at; both two lane and single lane.

Yet it's still that one that is a huge problem.

rastuscat
19th July 2012, 19:17
No surprise in those stats....

I'd be interested to know how the stats for mon-fri break down, who's at fault, and how many are scooters vs motorcycles. Of particular interest would be scooters in cycle lanes and motorcycles using bus lanes getting cleaned up by right turning traffic, no agenda, just interested as I've seen so many near misses.

Don't go looking for too much detail. I asked all those questions and found that the information gathered often lacks in the detail you might expect.

I could manually trawl through all the TCRs,(traffic crash reports) but it would take a lot of time that I don't have.

The best stats on bus and cycle lane crashes are anecdotal. Simply HEAPS of mopeds, bicycles and motorcycles are being SMIDSYd in special vehicle lanes, as well as open traffic lanes.

Mon to Fri it's pretty uniform, although the trend is an increase as the week goes on. The afternoon peak is worse than the morning peak.

Re fault, the legal obligation for turning traffic to give way to straight through traffic is the law most broken. Thing is, the issue is being seen. If folk don't see you, they won't give way to you.

Generally, people don't try to hit bikes. They hit bikes because they fail to see them, and drive across their paths.

Welcome to my world.

Oakie
19th July 2012, 19:18
So next time I am in Akaroa on my cruiser and I see you standing there with a Laser and a measuring tape, do I stop and pull my pants down? :crazy:

I wasn't speeding officer :Police: and I can prove it. :moon: Behold my huge penis:banana: which removes the need to speed.

Berries
20th July 2012, 00:53
Don't go looking for too much detail. I asked all those questions and found that the information gathered often lacks in the detail you might expect.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it is the Police who collect that data and fill in the TCR's. Have you passed your thoughts up the chain? I nearly got in to it on the MOTONZ thread but decided not to waste my time. But if the attending officer cannot write down the actual make, model and engine size of a bike when he is standing next to it that information will never be available. I have looked at thousands of TCR's over the years and all too often you'll see at least one of the three items missing which degrades the data making any kind of decent analysis impossible.

I do hope your guys are getting the days of the week right though.

Hawk
20th July 2012, 08:13
Generally, people don't try to hit bikes. They hit bikes because they fail to see them, and drive across their paths.

Welcome to my world.

Id hate to be the cager that didnt see you on your bike :ar15:

duckonin
20th July 2012, 09:32
Rest assured Ed, there's a number of motorcyclists out there that manage to fit that bill also.

:lol::lol::lol:

rastuscat
20th July 2012, 12:35
Id hate to be the cager that didnt see you on your bike :ar15:

One bloke failed to see me late one night when I was on my own bike commuting home.Avoided him, charged him with Careless Driving.

One bloke pulled out of a give way in front of my troll bike in daylight. Adrenaline rush, terse talking to, moved on.

Personal bike riding home one day, saw a car parked up ahead on the left, lurking. As I got closer it pulled out to u-turn.........I puckered, swerved, swore, rode on.

Wish I had a more even response at times, but it's a bit dictated by the level of adrenaline.

That's it for 7 years in churchur. The ones that were really close. Not too bad, really.

cheshirecat
20th July 2012, 18:47
One bloke failed to see me late one night when I was on my own bike commuting home.Avoided him, charged him with Careless Driving.

One bloke pulled out of a give way in front of my troll bike in daylight. Adrenaline rush, terse talking to, moved on.

Personal bike riding home one day, saw a car parked up ahead on the left, lurking. As I got closer it pulled out to u-turn.........I puckered, swerved, swore, rode on.

Wish I had a more even response at times, but it's a bit dictated by the level of adrenaline.

That's it for 7 years in churchur. The ones that were really close. Not too bad, really.
That's bloody amazing. Got that before morning coffee DRing in London.

MIXONE
20th July 2012, 21:18
That's bloody amazing. Got that before morning coffee DRing in London.

Yep that sounds like the average commute on the Welly streets.

Edbear
20th July 2012, 21:22
Yep that sounds like the average commute on the Welly streets.

And then there's Auckland... :(

onearmedbandit
20th July 2012, 21:28
Its funny that probably half of the Heroes of the Akaroa gp are too scared to ride around Ruapuna....

Or don't give a fuck about how fast they are around a track. I don't care, don't think I'm the fastest on the road (have no interest in that) and am happy to do whatever laptimes I can do at the track when I get out there. But not everyone wants to ride the track is all I'm saying.

But I do like riding over teh hill.

merv
20th July 2012, 22:50
I took this photo when I was down a few months back. At least this guy wasn't leaning towards the centreline too hard. It is a Honda so it went past in a bit of a blur.
266676


.... and who wouldn't like racing up here
266675


.... and down here
266677

schrodingers cat
21st July 2012, 08:07
Or don't give a fuck about how fast they are around a track. I don't care, don't think I'm the fastest on the road (have no interest in that) and am happy to do whatever laptimes I can do at the track when I get out there. But not everyone wants to ride the track is all I'm saying.

But I do like riding over teh hill.

I've been to the track a few times and wish I had a more flexible job so I could get there more. I own a club car and do some car racing also.
What I like about my bike is I can get up in the morning, look and the window and just like' Its a nice day bro. Lets get out there'
For me its the flexibility and freedom to do what I like when I like.

I do a gerzillion miles a year for work so on the long straight bits heading for the hill I just get patient. Riding fast in a straight line seems more about impatience than pleasure.

I do like the hill tho. As pointed out earlier a lot of the time your speed up and down the hill is mostly below the speed limit.
I just love the sensation of tipping the bike in and carving through the turn.

Aside from the sites and the smells that sensation is what motorcycling is about.

I agree that this behaviour is also moving you closer to a 'woops' moment and increasing your risk profile. For that reason I prefe to ride smartly enough that I enjoy it but well within myself because there is too much stuff to hit if it goes wrong

So I agree - accidents in the weekend are caused by the rider on the whole.
I don't know how you reduce this without seeming heavy handed

Riding to work. Well thats a bit different. I treat every peak hour journey as a hostile encounter. I look for idiots coming to get me, I look for escape routes. 'They're' coming to get you people. Ride accordingly.

rastuscat
11th August 2012, 20:22
Okay.

Per the OP, at the weekends the greatest risk of a motorcycle crash is on the open road between Christchurch and Akaroa. They are lone vehicle crashes, motorcycle fails to take a bend.

Appears to me that it's about riders over cooking corners. That's why I posted about taking a laser out there and giving it a nudge.

Nudged today for an hour. Didn't want to get Azkles back up, so I set up on a straight, targeting vehicles exiting a corner at the start of the straight I.e. vehicles coming around the corner fast.

In 46 minutes I stopped three folk to chat to.

A cyclist wearing no helmet. He had a medical exemption. Go figure.

A biker at 122. Nice line out of the corner though. Ticket issued. Had a good chat about crashes on the Akaroa road. Nice bloke.

Another biker at 112. First thing he said was "That's my Licence then". Like, it was MY fault. As it happened, I checked and he had 120 points already. Didn't even write the ticket, but we had a good chat about how some folk go through life with no tickets at all. And how some folk just keep getting them.

Quite a few other bikers went past, some waved 5 fingers, betting that some waved 2.

Just an update. We'll be nudging the Akaroa road at weekends. No speed, no ticket.

Donuts.

onearmedbandit
11th August 2012, 21:09
Just an update. We'll be nudging the Akaroa road at weekends. No speed, no ticket.

Donuts.

Just as well I work weekends then. I'd tell you what day I have off but it's irrelevant anyway as I don't speed.

Bikemad
11th August 2012, 21:25
Okay.

Per the OP, at the weekends the greatest risk of a motorcycle crash is on the open road between Christchurch and Akaroa. They are lone vehicle crashes, motorcycle fails to take a bend.

Appears to me that it's about riders over cooking corners. That's why I posted about taking a laser out there and giving it a nudge.

Nudged today for an hour. Didn't want to get Azkles back up, so I set up on a straight, targeting vehicles exiting a corner at the start of the straight I.e. vehicles coming around the corner fast.

In 46 minutes I stopped three folk to chat to.

A cyclist wearing no helmet. He had a medical exemption. Go figure.

A biker at 122. Nice line out of the corner though. Ticket issued. Had a good chat about crashes on the Akaroa road. Nice bloke.



Another biker at 112. First thing he said was "That's my Licence then". Like, it was MY fault. As it happened, I checked and he had 120 points already. Didn't even write the ticket, but we had a good chat about how some folk go through life with no tickets at all. And how some folk just keep getting them.

Quite a few other bikers went past, some waved 5 fingers, betting that some waved 2.

Just an update. We'll be nudging the Akaroa road at weekends. No speed, no ticket.

Donuts.

would that be the Birdlings flat straight per chance

rastuscat
11th August 2012, 21:40
would that be the Birdlings flat straight per chance

Nah, one of the mini straights before Birdlings Flat. On the Ataahua bends.

Ocean1
11th August 2012, 21:54
I set up on a straight, targeting vehicles exiting a corner at the start of the straight I.e. vehicles coming around the corner fast.

What you've got there is a strategy that pings riders having sucessfully negotiated a corner. More to the point it's not a strategy that'll ping anyone traveling arguably too fast for the corner.

Duno what would. Maybe you make a point of automatically ticketing everyone who bins on teh Akaroa road, (cowshit and gravel notwithstanding) on the basis that they were obviously exceeding speed safe for the conditions.

rastuscat
11th August 2012, 22:00
I just want to establish a presence which causes people to wonder whether we are there or not.

The more people who see me, the bike and the laser the better. That way, over a period of weeks, I hope it will cause people to slow down and just enjoy the ride, instead of nailing every corner like Ronnie Rossi (Valentinos brother).

Out of interest I was sticking out like dogs nuts today. Parked at roadside, in clear view.

Hopefully, over a period of weeks, it'll mean that maybe one or two bikers will make it home without losing any skin, money or dignity.

Am I dreaming ?

Ocean1
11th August 2012, 22:11
Hopefully, over a period of weeks, it'll mean that maybe one or two bikers will make it home without losing any skin, money or dignity.

Am I dreaming ?

You asking if you're a less attractive proposition than lying on the road alongside your fuck't bike leaking mixed peritoneal fluid and oil?

That'd need to be a mother of a laser, dude.

But give it a nudge eh? Can't hurt.

Fast Eddie
11th August 2012, 22:13
I just want to establish a presence
Hopefully, over a period of weeks, it'll mean that maybe one or two bikers will make it home without losing any skin, money or dignity.

Am I dreaming ?

you're drinking tui at the very least..

rastuscat
11th August 2012, 22:13
You asking if you're a less attractive proposition than lying on the road alongside your fuck't bike leaking mixed peritoneal fluid and oil?

That'd need to be a mother of a laser, dude.

But give it a nudge eh? Can't hurt.

I'll take a taser next time. That'll learn 'em.

gammaguy
12th August 2012, 01:44
Okay.

Per the OP, at the weekends the greatest risk of a motorcycle crash is on the open road between Christchurch and Akaroa. They are lone vehicle crashes, motorcycle fails to take a bend.

Appears to me that it's about riders over cooking corners. That's why I posted about taking a laser out there and giving it a nudge.

Nudged today for an hour. Didn't want to get Azkles back up, so I set up on a straight, targeting vehicles exiting a corner at the start of the straight I.e. vehicles coming around the corner fast.

In 46 minutes I stopped three folk to chat to.

A cyclist wearing no helmet. He had a medical exemption. Go figure.

A biker at 122. Nice line out of the corner though. Ticket issued. Had a good chat about crashes on the Akaroa road. Nice bloke.

Another biker at 112. First thing he said was "That's my Licence then". Like, it was MY fault. As it happened, I checked and he had 120 points already. Didn't even write the ticket, but we had a good chat about how some folk go through life with no tickets at all. And how some folk just keep getting them.

Quite a few other bikers went past, some waved 5 fingers, betting that some waved 2.

Just an update. We'll be nudging the Akaroa road at weekends. No speed, no ticket.

Donuts.

good for you

im tired of seeing dickheads on bikes going over the hill to Akaroa.(yeah I know this has all been said before)

Ticket freely,I only ride there during the week now,and when I do I can have a lot of fun and dont need to speed to do so.

I dont suppose you guys could get the fish and chip shop reopened tho......:drool:

swbarnett
12th August 2012, 02:43
No speed, no ticket.
More like "No speed, you won't even get out of the driveway"

wasiler
12th August 2012, 07:35
This is interesting because I had this discussion with a coworker just this last week. First, I am new to New Zealand and wanted the low-down on the laws. I was a little surprised how strict the laws are for speeding. This coworker currently has his license revoked and informed me that if you are 40kph over -> 28 days suspension with the possibility of getting your bike impounded. My coworker also said if they go to pull him over again, he would considering running on his bike. This to me indicates the laws are promoting a dangerous situation by forcing some dumb kid to run instead facing the penalty for what I consider a minor infraction. Where I am from, I have been on highways cruising at 145 kph going with the flow of traffic and it was safe. No police would pull me over yet, I would be above the posted limit. However, you can't just let them run amok either. If I was splitting lanes, passing dangerously or travelling much faster than the flow of traffic, I would expect a ticket.

Speeding is not what gets bikers in trouble. Like someone mentioned earlier, they take a curve above their skill level or someone did not see them and pull out in front of them. A biker can still be going the speed limit and take a curve beyond their ability and crash. So, to think the posted limit is safe for everyone is deceiving. Then you have got the wanna-be Rossi that is looking to set a best time. I remember a video where an officer parked his car around a curve and the dude who had decent form and line, wiped-out because he panicked when he saw the officer. That I consider was in poor taste by the officer but, maybe he did not realize the kid was going to crash.

Maturity plays a big factor. Where I found the best lessons were taught was at the track. After these Rossis have a few spills on the track, they see how fast a crash can literally happen in a split second and appreciate how dangerous a bike can be. Also, I found very good mentors at the track. I mainly ride at the speed limits most of the time on the street. Although, if I hit the twisties, I go at the pace I feel comfortable at and sometimes that is way above the limit. I know the risks and have recently thought about running but probably won't. Do I think the fine or impound will change my riding habits? never.... Not in a million years. Do I think it will change other's perception? no... Do I feel I ride safe and responsible? Absolutely.... I strongly promote good gear and would be wearing full leathers if I was going on a spirited ride. If there are side entrances or traffic, again, I would not ride like an ass-hat. Is there the possibility I will crash? always

So, if NZ wants to get kids from wiping out on the streets, they need to promote track time. Not these remedial basic how to operate a bike classes. Let them push their limits. If they can take a corner at 150+, then they can easily navigate a corner at a fraction of that speed. There they will learn to control their bike better. Show them how easy and expensive it is to crash in a controlled environment. I can't think of a track day where someone did not crash. Track also encourages them to buy good gear. Someone told me they don't do bike tech inspections here and if it is a test and tune day, they can go onto the track with jeans and jacket????? That is crazy if it is true. I have been to events that were sponsored by companies (red bull for one) that gave all people the opportunity to try track for free. A way to promote track and not street. Once they try it, doing it on the street/road completely blows chunks. It is boring and pointless. You will never stop all accidents (especially for the car not paying attention) however, you can reduce them by promoting track time.

Above is my opinion and treat it with a grain of salt for all I care

Berries
12th August 2012, 08:02
This is interesting because I had this discussion with a coworker just this last week. First, I am new to New Zealand and wanted the low-down on the laws. I was a little surprised how strict the laws are for speeding. This coworker currently has his license revoked and informed me that if you are 40kph over -> 28 days suspension with the possibility of getting your bike impounded. My coworker also said if they go to pull him over again, he would considering running on his bike. This to me indicates the laws are promoting a dangerous situation by forcing some dumb kid to run instead facing the penalty for what I consider a minor infraction. Where I am from, I have been on highways cruising at 145 kph going with the flow of traffic and it was safe. No police would pull me over yet, I would be above the posted limit. However, you can't just let them run amok either. If I was splitting lanes, passing dangerously or travelling much faster than the flow of traffic, I would expect a ticket.
Come on, that would be far too sensible for a country that lets school children drive.

Katman
12th August 2012, 09:16
Track time isn't the magic wand you seem to think it is.

Adopting a mature attitude towards riding on the road is.

Motorcycling is still producing too many adults who insist on living a second childhood.

wasiler
12th August 2012, 10:31
Come on, that would be far too sensible for a country that lets school children drive.

are you being serious?

wasiler
12th August 2012, 10:49
Track time isn't the magic wand you seem to think it is.

Adopting a mature attitude towards riding on the road is.

Motorcycling is still producing too many adults who insist on living a second childhood.

Never said that it was a magic wand. I mentioned above that "maturity plays a big factor". Those mature people I am not worried about. If they ride at a safe speed and still do track, it would make them that much of a safer rider because they can turn sharper and maneuver better. Also I mention that you will not be able to prevent all accidents no matter what you do. Thus, no magic. I am more worried about the immature "Rossi" guy.

If an immature rider goes to the track and get schooled that they are not as fast as they think they are, they are more likely to listen to someone that is faster. That is where the mentoring process comes in. Unless it is different here, every rider I have spoke with that was serious about track and was really fast, was also more serious about riding safe on the road. These immature punks want to get faster, that will not change. They can do it on the street or they can do it at the track. I would rather they do it on the track instead of experimenting on the road. Also, once you get up to speed on the track, going fast on the road is not fun for me because I can no longer push the limits. I have already found my limits at the track and I know what I can and can't do. It is just to dangerous to push the limits on the street.

duckonin
12th August 2012, 11:07
Never said that it was a magic wand. I mentioned above that "maturity plays a big factor". Those mature people I am not worried about. If they ride at a safe speed and still do track, it would make them that much of a safer rider because they can turn sharper and maneuver better. Also I mention that you will not be able to prevent all accidents no matter what you do. Thus, no magic. I am more worried about the immature "Rossi" guy.

If an immature rider goes to the track and get schooled that they are not as fast as they think they are, they are more likely to listen to someone that is faster. That is where the mentoring process comes in. Unless it is different here, every rider I have spoke with that was serious about track and was really fast, was also more serious about riding safe on the road. These immature punks want to get faster, that will not change. They can do it on the street or they can do it at the track. I would rather they do it on the track instead of experimenting on the road. Also, once you get up to speed on the track, going fast on the road is not fun for me because I can no longer push the limits. I have already found my limits at the track and I know what I can and can't do. It is just to dangerous to push the limits on the street.

:yes: Kat/M was just scratching your toe,he knows you are right. Everyone needs a place to practice something. A bike a track, a horse an arena, yachting we need the sea. For a bike rider after using the track for slow /fast or whatever common sence prevails when knowledge gained is being applied elsewhere on a motorbike, road/ bush tracks/ farms ect.

Katman
12th August 2012, 11:10
:yes: Kat/M was just scratching your toe,he knows you are right. Everyone needs a place to practice something. A bike a track, a horse an arena, yachting we need the sea. For a bike rider after using the track for slow /fast or whatever common sence prevails when knowledge gained is being applied elsewhere on a motorbike, road/ bush tracks/ farms ect.

I've heard of plenty of people who ride home after a track day like they've never even left the track.

CookMySock
12th August 2012, 11:11
So, the Chur Chur motorcycle Popos will be targeting crap driving on the city streets during the peaks, and using a laser to keep speeds down on the Akaroa road at the weekends.

Any comments on that?Whose crap driving? Your presentation of stats does not identify whether it's car or biker who is not giving way, and your statement about your predatory actions against any offender does not state which party you target. For your persuasive document to not be weasel words, you should clarify these points entirely, or else all we end up granting you is consent to arbitrarily target us on a meaningless basis, which we do not.

With regard to motorcyclists losing control on a seemingly innocuous piece of road - you threaten to target bikers is such a way that penalises them, yet you do not identify precisely what is the cause of the problem. Perhaps as you suggest there ARE scratch marks on the road from footpegs scraping where the rider is INDEED travelling at a greater speed that the motorcycle is CAPABLE or taking this corner, or have you considered that the rider has some difficulty mentally managing such a manoevre, and that the problem is rectifible with training?

I concede that bikers consider it good weekend sport to ride their motorcycles in a spirited fashion on public roads, and I concede there will always be some risk associated with this for those not expertly qualified (extensive track time), but if you really would like to resolve issues as you purport then you should take a far more analytical approach and address the issues one by one as they arise.

Subike
12th August 2012, 11:13
I've heard of plenty of people who ride home after a track day like they've never even left the track.

you have heard, but never seen
what may look like being very fast to one person, may look slow to another
perception of ability.....

But again, you have only heard...not seen...so you cant give a really quantified opinion of that eh

Katman
12th August 2012, 11:19
you have heard, but never seen
what may look like being very fast to one person, may look slow to another
perception of ability.....

But again, you have only heard...not seen...so you cant give a really quantified opinion of that eh

You're right. All those people must have been lying to me.

All I'm saying is, thinking that trackdays automatically bestow maturity on a rider is naive in the extreme.

Madness
12th August 2012, 11:31
Blah, blah, blah...

Above is my opinion and treat it with a grain of salt for all I care

Will do, cheers :niceone:

GrayWolf
12th August 2012, 11:42
I'll take a taser next time. That'll learn 'em.

Now there's an interesting idea.... I lasered you doing 125kph exiting that bend Sir, Now I can ticket you (points and a nice Donut fund contribution) OR; 1 second Taser for every 5kph over the limit.....

268055

wasiler
12th August 2012, 12:56
You're right. All those people must have been lying to me.

All I'm saying is, thinking that trackdays automatically bestow maturity on a rider is naive in the extreme.

No, it doesn't however, it will make them a better rider... probably (no guarantees). Then maybe not kill themselves or someone else because they will have better control of their machine. The machine will go the same speed with an immature rider with training or no training. I would rather be on the road with someone that has better control then someone that only knows how to twist a throttle. Unless someone has a way of making someone mature, I would like to hear. For some I think it is a lost cause.

I am done with my soap box. You guys do what you want.

wasiler
12th August 2012, 13:12
Will do, cheers :niceone:

Wow! you read all that? I'm impressed. Did not think you had it in you. Good job :niceone:

Drew
12th August 2012, 13:43
Any of you track day advocates ever raced bikes? Plenty of fuckwits who can't ride or control their bikes out there, just look at my record.

Oakie
12th August 2012, 14:09
So, if NZ wants to get kids from wiping out on the streets, they need to promote track time. Not these remedial basic how to operate a bike classes. Let them push their limits. Well that sounds like an interesting idea
I can't think of a track day where someone did not crash. And that's why it can't happen.

wasiler
12th August 2012, 14:22
Any of you track day advocates ever raced bikes? Plenty of fuckwits who can't ride or control their bikes out there, just look at my record.

I use to have wera license. Maybe you can tell me where I can find more info on events and classes? What record are you talking about? I have also been on the track with plenty of fuckwits

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 14:25
Whose crap driving? Your presentation of stats does not identify whether it's car or biker who is not giving way, and your statement about your predatory actions against any offender does not state which party you target. For your persuasive document to not be weasel words, you should clarify these points entirely, or else all we end up granting you is consent to arbitrarily target us on a meaningless basis, which we do not.

You appear to assume that we are targeting motorcyclists. In regard to deterrence theory, it's possible to target individuals, groups, or behaviours. We don't target individuals or groups, we target behaviours. Whoever acts in the risk taking fashion gets targetted. Worry not, if we catch cars, bikes, cycles etc failing to give way, we treat them all equally badly.

E.g. if I'm sitting at a traffic light intersection, waiting for someone to crash the lights, I don't get to choose who it is. They do. I just grab whoever crashes the lights, be it bike, car, truck, bus, cyclist etc.


In regard to motorcyclists losing control on a seemingly innocuous piece of road - you threaten to target bikers is such a way that penalises them, yet you do not identify precisely what is the cause of the problem.

I can almost guarantee that people lose it on corners due to a bad line on the entry to that corner. I've cocked a few up in my day, it's a brave rider who claims not to have. Thing is, I cant find a law that allows me to enforce cornering lines. I guess what I'm saying is that in my line of work, I have limitations on what I can do. I can't set up a school to run training sessions, I can't operate the controls of someones bike. I can, however, enforce speed, engage with riders,
do high profile deterrence. So thats what I'm saying we'll do. It's not a threat at all. It's just a heads up as to what I am having my section do. Possibly you'd rather I hid in bushes, and did it all on the quiet. No deterrence value in that.

One thing I know for sure is that the faster I go into a corner on a bad line, the greater the degree of pucker that happens. I have survived my bad entries mostly by having enough spare room due to not flying at low level.


as you suggest there ARE scratch marks on the road from footpegs scraping where the rider is INDEED travelling at a greater speed that the motorcycle is CAPABLE or taking this corner, or have you considered that the rider has some difficulty mentally managing such a manoevre, and that the problem is rectifible with training?

We don't deliver training, but there are three local motorcycle schools that do. They got really busy after ACC started heavily subsidising their course, all good. Most people riding bikes have not done training. It's voluntary, and most of us just don't think we need it. I think most on here will remember that I shamelessly promoted the ACC subsidies down here last financial year, I even came up with a scheme to let people off tickets if they went and did training. I think training is the answer, but it's not the role of the Popo to deliver it; there are trainers far better qualified to deliver that than me. My part of the picture is enforcement.


concede that bikers consider it good weekend sport to ride their motorcycles in a spirited fashion on public roads, and I concede there will always be some risk associated with this for those not expertly qualified (extensive track time), but if you really would like to resolve issues as you purport then you should take a far more analytical approach and address the issues one by one as they arise.

So, extensive track time is the answer? Yeah right. It's part of the answer, especially for the lone vehicle loss of control crashes, but how many intersections are there at Ruapuna? Does it teach you to interact with traffic, and avoid the Monday to Friday failing to give way crashes? Track time is valuable as PART of the answer, but it isn't the answer on its own.

If you're going to ask for detail, please be specific which details you want.

wasiler
12th August 2012, 14:28
Well that sounds like an interesting idea And that's why it can't happen.

I guess things are done here a little differently. I guess NZ govt would rather these ass-hats lose control and run over a child on the side of the rode. Yes, what was I thinking. Why wreck in a controlled environment with medical on staff. Let's have them run over some child first and then make a mad run from the police. *Sarcasm* Well, at least I know now what to expect. Best of luck you guys.

Oakie
12th August 2012, 14:50
Why wreck in a controlled environment with medical on staff.
Because you can't have an acccident prevention course that causes more accidents than happen on the road.


Let's have them run over some child first. See those are the skills that a standard old road based course will teach you. Doubt whether you get that sort of learning on the track


Well, at least I know now what to expect. Best of luck you guys. Glad to have helped. Ride safe buddy.

wasiler
12th August 2012, 15:23
So, extensive track time is the answer? Yeah right. It's part of the answer, especially for the lone vehicle loss of control crashes, but how many intersections are there at Ruapuna? Does it teach you to interact with traffic, and avoid the Monday to Friday failing to give way crashes? Track time is valuable as PART of the answer, but it isn't the answer on its own.

If you're going to ask for detail, please be specific which details you want.

In the U.S. we had the option of taking a course from the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF). I guess over half the people I know did this because it did not cost that much more than getting your driver's license and it was training over the weekend. Also they provided the bike and said don't worry about dropping it (bikes were junk) because a lot of people would drop it on the more technical stuff. The course pushed their limits and showed how the bike could fall over and how easy it is to crash at low speed. They taught us all the basics about interacting with traffic, lines, stopping and being fully aware of our surrounding...etc. Ride as if you are invisible. There was also a 100 question test they gave. I believe it was 1/2 day in class and 1 1/2 on the course (weekend). Once you passed the course, they gave you a card and then you took it to the driver's license department to get your photo and real license. Do they have something like that here? I see these "L" plates for lower cc beginner bikes which is a good idea. We didn't have that but, makes sense.

I was under the impression most everyone here went through some sort of basic class before jumping on a bike and hitting the street. If not, maybe that should be a requirement to getting their license.

I am a strong supporter of track time. It sounds like you already know where that comes into play.

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 15:56
Do they have something like that here? I see these "L" plates for lower cc beginner bikes which is a good idea. We didn't have that but, makes sense.

I was under the impression most everyone here went through some sort of basic class before jumping on a bike and hitting the street. If not, maybe that should be a requirement to getting their license.

I am a strong supporter of track time. It sounds like you already know where that comes into play.

I've attended a lot of track days, both officially and personally. It's great for providing a low risk environment for allowing braking and cornering practise. It allows a rider to feel out the limits of both them-self and their bike. And it can be fun too.

Trouble is, it provides bugger all real world interaction, where most crashes happen. So it's part of the solution, but not all. Most track training sessions eventually turn into an excuse for a hoon.

Back in the day here it was a laugh to get a bike licence. Answer 5 oral questions, and you're good to go. You had a provisional for 6 weeks, then went onto a full. It's how I got mine. No restriction on what you could ride back then either, but then, most of the bikes weren't as heinous in terms of HP as now. The RD350LC I rode was the coolest.

Back in maybe the late 80s we went to what happens now. It takes longer to get your licence, and limits the size of bike. The system has so many holes in it, it leaks. The LAMS system is improving the situation, but there are other big problems.

Lots of folk got full licences when they were 19, and haven't ridden a bike since. 20 years later they can do buy a Huyabusa, and ride it away. The only limit on the power is their ability to pay the purchase price.

An aspect of making it harder to get a licence is the tendency of some to decide just to rebel, say sod the law, and ride whatever they want anyway. I have a couple of acquaintances who didn't want to ride a 250, they just wanted a Harley. Out they went, bought the Harley, and just dont bother with the licence. Make it too hard, and you encourage non compliance.

Training is not compulsory here, it's voluntary. An aspect of this is that those who need it normally need it because they have an adverse mentality. Those who seek out training generally already have a safety mentality, so ironically, are less in need.

Thing is, we can sit around and bitch about the system, but we have what we have. It's what we are having to deal with each day. It'll change some day, just not yet. Until then, we have the existing leaky laws and systems to live with.

The only constant is donuts.

willytheekid
12th August 2012, 16:05
I was under the impression most everyone here went through some sort of basic class before jumping on a bike and hitting the street. If not, maybe that should be a requirement to getting their license.

I am a strong supporter of track time. It sounds like you already know where that comes into play.

"Basic", unfortunately, is the key word...its the same with car licenses to.
If you can keep it upright or off the footpaths for 30-60mins...you get a license! :facepalm:
Personally I think there should be much higher standards introduced, and mandatory driver & rider road safety training.

...and we should punish drunk drivers MUCH more harshly!!

Driving & Riding on public roads is NOT someones right!...its a privileged!

Ride safe KBers:love:

mossy1200
12th August 2012, 16:20
Refer OP
Accidents seem to be where the bikes are.

On the way to work and back and recreational on the weekend. Hows that surprising when people use the bike to get to and from work but not during working hours and people dont seem to ride to work on a fine weekend.

Thats not a trend or pattern. The trend is the risk of falling off increases if your riding your bike.

Berries
12th August 2012, 16:52
Accidents seem to be where the bikes are.

On the way to work and back and recreational on the weekend. Hows that surprising when people use the bike to get to and from work but not during working hours and people dont seem to ride to work on a fine weekend.
It has also just been revealed that crashes in the dark are most likely to occur at night.

Be careful out there.

Oakie
12th August 2012, 17:01
Back in the day here it was a laugh to get a bike licence. Answer 5 oral questions, and you're good to go. You had a provisional for 6 weeks, then went onto a full. It's how I got mine. No restriction on what you could ride back then either, but then, most of the bikes weren't as heinous in terms of HP as now. The RD350LC I rode was the coolest.

Hmm. One of the local bike cops when I was starting out had an RD350LC for his personal bike. You don't sound like him, but just in case, I don't suppose you were based in Oamaru many years ago?

FJRider
12th August 2012, 17:17
Driving & Riding on public roads is NOT someones right!...its a privileged!

Ride safe KBers:love:



It is a right ... if certain legal conditions the individual concerned needs to make ... are met.

Just as the right of all road-users ... to expect all road-users to obey the road rules.

If you abuse the rights of others ... it's hardly fair to expect your rights to be respected.

swbarnett
12th August 2012, 17:18
I can almost guarantee that people lose it on corners due to a bad line on the entry to that corner. ... One thing I know for sure is that the faster I go into a corner on a bad line, the greater the degree of pucker that happens.
Indeed, it's the bad line that's the problem, coupled with riding at a speed that leaves no margin for error, not the speed in and of itself. Considering this, would you perhaps let a rider off a speed infringement if, for the particular corner that was observed, the line was good and it was clear that there was still margin for error?

FJRider
12th August 2012, 17:25
Indeed, it's the bad line that's the problem, coupled with riding at a speed that leaves no margin for error, not the speed in and of itself. Considering this, would you perhaps let a rider off a speed infringement if, for the particular corner that was observed, the line was good and it was clear that there was still margin for error?

Better a speed infringement ... than a dangerous driving charge.

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 17:51
Hmm. One of the local bike cops when I was starting out had an RD350LC for his personal bike. You don't sound like him, but just in case, I don't suppose you were based in Oamaru many years ago?

Nah, I wuz in Orkers back then, ex-navy.

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 17:55
Indeed, it's the bad line that's the problem, coupled with riding at a speed that leaves no margin for error, not the speed in and of itself. Considering this, would you perhaps let a rider off a speed infringement if, for the particular corner that was observed, the line was good and it was clear that there was still margin for error?

Did that yesterday. See my earlier posts.

Not condoning speed, just felt that, as he already had 120 demerits, another ticket wouldn't serve much purpose.

Funny, if I had been checking speed on a straight, I'd have been bagged for it. So I picked the exit to a bend, where excess speed causes most problems, and now I'm getting bagged for it.

Ah well, c'est la vie. And c'est la donuts.

scumdog
12th August 2012, 18:10
You appear to assume that we are targeting motorcyclists....etc

If you're going to ask for detail, please be specific which details you want.

Drongos are there to be given a wind-up, not be pandered to.

You are way more tolerant than I.

Drew
12th August 2012, 18:23
I use to have wera license. Maybe you can tell me where I can find more info on events and classes? What record are you talking about? I have also been on the track with plenty of fuckwits

MNZ website has upcoming events and shit, but the website is crap. Find out what your local club is and they will have the info you need.

Classes vary from club to club, but if you're gonna ride the R1 you've got clubmans as a noob, or F1/superbike as your options. Up here if it's a carbed R1 we also get post 1990 carburetted superbike. Where an R1 would decimate all else.

My record involves crashing a 749R ducati a lot.

Trackdays are no more helpfull for teaching bike control than any other riding in my opinion. The speed is higher is the only difference unless you're actually being taught by someone who knows what they are diong.

Some pick it up by themselves, some don't, location means nothing.

Anyhoo, as you were. Rastus ya cunt, stop picking on all us poor bikers who know everything about anything, and are never at fault.

Scuba Steve, you keep crusading for those filthy coppers to stay indoors and let traffic do what it wants.

FJRider
12th August 2012, 18:28
Not condoning speed, just felt that, as he already had 120 demerits, another ticket wouldn't serve much purpose.



Can you leave it in the system ... and mail it to him in 3 months ... ???

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 18:41
Can you leave it in the system ... and mail it to him in 3 months ... ???

Not a fan of kicking folk when they are down.

Now, if it were Azkle, maybe, just maybe.............:woohoo:

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 18:45
Scuba Steve, you keep crusading for those filthy coppers to stay indoors and let traffic do what it wants.

Yeah baby, always wanted to eat my donuts in peace.:wings:

duckonin
12th August 2012, 18:52
I've heard of plenty of people who ride home after a track day like they've never even left the track.

:yes:Yep kat/m ha ha have to agree it would happen. When kids off to a movie about cowboys and indians we would come out of the movies being invincible.. Good god the years are upon us all ha ha ..:yes: Keep up your good work. A lot may not believe in what you say, i sit back and nod my head for you are normaly 100% on the mark....Trouble is shit happens when least expected,even though we expect it.:facepalm: Accidents can happen to us all:innocent:

duckonin
12th August 2012, 19:00
Trackdays are no more helpfull for teaching bike control than any other riding in my opinion.

Really !!:mellow:

But with the wide open spaces is it not a good place to learn about controling your machine fast or slow ,Rather than the road ? :innocent:

Drew
12th August 2012, 19:08
Really !!:mellow:

But with the wide open spaces is it not a good place to learn about controling your machine fast or slow ,Rather than the road ? :innocent:

You want a bunch of people to learn to ride from scratch on the track?:eek5: That's gonna be bloody hard to fund, and will see new rider numbers plummet.

Controlling your machine does not need to be done fast, and most of it can be extrapolated from riding around a carpark or similar.

Scuba_Steve
12th August 2012, 19:10
Scuba Steve, you keep crusading for those filthy coppers to stay indoors and let traffic do what it wants.

Nope, I keep crusading for cops to do their job rather than running scams best left to nigerians. Making the communities & roads a fuck load safer

FJRider
12th August 2012, 19:13
Really !!:mellow:

But with the wide open spaces is it not a good place to learn about controling your machine fast or slow ,Rather than the road ? :innocent:

But in the wide open spaces ... fewer people are around to watch you ass off. Thats the cool part. You-tube is great ... eh ...

Drew
12th August 2012, 19:20
Nope, I keep crusading for cops to do their job rather than running scams best left to nigerians. Making the communities & roads a fuck load safer

They want people not to speed, or break other traffic laws. To make that message known they punish people who do such things. How exactly is that a scam?

Wait, forget I asked, I don't care in the slightest how you came to that conclusion.

scumdog
12th August 2012, 19:25
They want people not to speed, or break other traffic laws. To make that message known they punish people who do such things. How exactly is that a scam?

Wait, forget I asked, I don't care in the slightest how you came to that conclusion.

C'mon, since when has common sense and logic been part of 'the KB way'??
:blink:
EVERYBODY knows cops dishing out tickets is all part of a Government approved scam... :shifty:

Kickaha
12th August 2012, 19:28
EVERYBODY knows cops dishing out tickets is all part of a Government approved scam... :shifty:

Yeah but you'll have to excuse Drew for not knowing that because he's a bit thick

Scuba_Steve
12th August 2012, 19:41
EVERYBODY knows cops dishing out tickets is all part of a Government approved scam... :shifty:

it's usually referred to as "legalised extortion"

scumdog
12th August 2012, 20:29
it's usually referred to as "legalised extortion"

Whew, luckily in my 45+ years of driving/riding I have only been 'extorted' once!

mikeey01
12th August 2012, 20:35
cops dishing out tickets

No never, they don't do that do they?
Here I thought they clearly listened to every word you said, are understanding and more often than.... quite happy with a reasonable explanation.

gammaguy
12th August 2012, 20:46
I've heard of plenty of people who ride home after a track day like they've never even left the track.

I know plenty of people that think a ride to Akaroa is a trackday

mikeey01
12th August 2012, 20:49
I know plenty of people that think a ride to Akaroa is a trackday

I hear plenty of people starting the Akaroa GP most weekends, in fact on any fineish day.

Berries
12th August 2012, 21:18
They want people not to speed, or break other traffic laws. To make that message known they punish people who do such things.
Unless you have already shown that you have no concept of time and place and are sitting on 120 points it seems.

GrayWolf
12th August 2012, 21:55
Indeed, it's the bad line that's the problem, coupled with riding at a speed that leaves no margin for error, not the speed in and of itself. Considering this, would you perhaps let a rider off a speed infringement if, for the particular corner that was observed, the line was good and it was clear that there was still margin for error?





I can almost guarantee that people lose it on corners due to a bad line on the entry to that corner. I've cocked a few up in my day, it's a brave rider who claims not to have. Thing is, I cant find a law that allows me to enforce cornering lines. I guess what I'm saying is that in my line of work, I have limitations on what I can do. I can't set up a school to run training sessions, I can't operate the controls of someones bike. I can, however, enforce speed, engage with riders,
do high profile deterrence. So thats what I'm saying we'll do. It's not a threat at all. It's just a heads up as to what I am having my section do. Possibly you'd rather I hid in bushes, and did it all on the quiet. No deterrence value in that.

One thing I know for sure is that the faster I go into a corner on a bad line, the greater the degree of pucker that happens. I have survived my bad entries mostly by having enough spare room due to not flying at low level.



Totally agree with that, I can safely attest that 'bad lines' and in my case 30kph on a 25kph bend was sufficient to sit me on my arse..... I have constantly said track days do NOT give the skills needed on the road... you are all going the same way, on a purpose built surface with roadside furniture absent, as well as a lack of cliffs, mud banks, ditches in my case :violin:. It may allow you to explore the limit of your ability, but as Rastuscat points out, has no real correlation to riding on the public highway road conditions.

rastuscat
12th August 2012, 22:19
.......................... but as Rastuscat points out, ...........................

I thought you were serious until you agreed with me..............

268069

puddytat
12th August 2012, 23:15
Totally agree with that, I can safely attest that 'bad lines' and in my case 30kph on a 25kph bend was sufficient to sit me on my arse..... I have constantly said track days do NOT give the skills needed on the road... you are all going the same way, on a purpose built surface with roadside furniture absent, as well as a lack of cliffs, mud banks, ditches in my case :violin:. It may allow you to explore the limit of your ability, but as Rastuscat points out, has no real correlation to riding on the public highway road conditions.

Quite alot of people who ride on the road & attend trackdays still cant ride that well.....whereas racing definitely does help you on the road I reckon. It teaches you how hard you can brake when you really need to,teaches you to late apex, teaches you to look for an entry into the apex & to look thru the corner. It also teaches you to avoid target fixation. It also teaches you how to ride on the road way fasterer if you wish.....
It can also help you realise earlier that things might be turning to custard & help to stop a panicked reaction,helps you to suss out what is going on with your suspension so you can sort it & gives you a damn good idea of grip in the wet.
Im not condoning excess speed on the road, just stating what I have found.
Biggest factor I reckon is Ego especially when out with mates.

GrayWolf
12th August 2012, 23:53
I thought you were serious until you agreed with me..............

268069

I was serious Rastus :Oops:


268077 268078

wasiler
13th August 2012, 00:07
Totally agree with that, I can safely attest that 'bad lines' and in my case 30kph on a 25kph bend was sufficient to sit me on my arse..... I have constantly said track days do NOT give the skills needed on the road... you are all going the same way, on a purpose built surface with roadside furniture absent, as well as a lack of cliffs, mud banks, ditches in my case :violin:. It may allow you to explore the limit of your ability, but as Rastuscat points out, has no real correlation to riding on the public highway road conditions.

:facepalm:

GrayWolf
13th August 2012, 00:19
Quite alot of people who ride on the road & attend trackdays still cant ride that well.....whereas racing definitely does help you on the road I reckon. It teaches you how hard you can brake when you really need to,teaches you to late apex, teaches you to look for an entry into the apex & to look thru the corner. It also teaches you to avoid target fixation. It also teaches you how to ride on the road way fasterer if you wish.....
It can also help you realise earlier that things might be turning to custard & help to stop a panicked reaction,helps you to suss out what is going on with your suspension so you can sort it & gives you a damn good idea of grip in the wet.
Im not condoning excess speed on the road, just stating what I have found.
Biggest factor I reckon is Ego especially when out with mates.

I would not disagree with the ability to learn braking, apex, entry and late.... The point being made is... custom laid surface for grip, without pot holes, sheep/cow shit, tar snakes/patches. No ditches, sheep fencing, power poles, walls, fences, lamp posts etc etc,,,, I've never seen a race track that you have no clear view round/across a corner (unless using part of a road/highway).. there is no 'oncoming' Ute, WRX, Mitzi, lorry etc to allow for when taking the 'racing' line.... Thats the 'road skills' or allowances track days do not teach... So I would not agree with learners or 'new' riders going to track days,,, I think Grantman's crash thread explains it perfectly.. Overconfident with 'limited ability' or experience.
BTW I certainly do not consider myself a 'good rider'...

reggie1198
13th August 2012, 07:16
Quite alot of people who ride on the road & attend trackdays still cant ride that well.....whereas racing definitely does help you on the road I reckon. It teaches you how hard you can brake when you really need to,teaches you to late apex, teaches you to look for an entry into the apex & to look thru the corner. It also teaches you to avoid target fixation. It also teaches you how to ride on the road way fasterer if you wish.....
It can also help you realise earlier that things might be turning to custard & help to stop a panicked reaction,helps you to suss out what is going on with your suspension so you can sort it & gives you a damn good idea of grip in the wet.
Im not condoning excess speed on the road, just stating what I have found.
Biggest factor I reckon is Ego especially when out with mates.


Puddytat, I couldn't agree with you less, I have a mate in Ireland who races on a 1000cc Suzuki in a clubman series, he's pretty bloody quick, yet his nickname is crash because of his road riding antics. He has binned every new bike he's ever owned at some point.
Now to respond to your claims,
The only thing that teaches hard braking is practice, what the track gives you is a constant surface to practice on. Not good if you come flat out up to a corner thinking I only need xxx meters cause that's what I learnt on the track, road surface is a bigger determining factor, wet/dry, gravel, mid corner bumps, oil, shit, etc.
Not all corners can be seen through before entry.
How the fuck does the track teach avoiding target fixation? There's nothing to fixate on.
You can set up your suspension for the track and gain faster lap times, constant surface again.
Very hard to tune suspension for the road, and as far as grip levels in the wet go, once again it all comes down to the surface, and a lack of grip mid corner can be unsettling at best and fatal at worst.
While in ireland I did a three day ROSPA rider training course, I learnt more from real world training over those 3 days than from the multitude of track days since, in fact I think it made me faster on the track.

Reggie

swbarnett
13th August 2012, 07:53
Did that yesterday. See my earlier posts.

Not condoning speed, just felt that, as he already had 120 demerits, another ticket wouldn't serve much purpose.
But that was because they were already screwed. What if they'd had no demerits?


Funny, if I had been checking speed on a straight, I'd have been bagged for it. So I picked the exit to a bend, where excess speed causes most problems, and now I'm getting bagged for it.
Not trynig to bag you. I think it's certainly a step in the right direction. Just trying to determine how much you're looking at rider behaviour other than just speed.

swbarnett
13th August 2012, 07:56
They want people not to speed, or break other traffic laws. To make that message known they punish people who do such things. How exactly is that a scam?
The scam part is not on the part of the cop on the ground. Can't really blame them for doing what they believe in. It comes from the "scientists" and politicians that set the laws in the first place. Based on nothing more than emotioin and flawed assumptions.

oneofsix
13th August 2012, 08:02
The scam part is not on the part of the cop on the ground. Can't really blame them for doing what they believe in. It comes from the "scientists" and politicians that set the laws in the first place. Based on nothing more than emotioin and flawed assumptions.

I object to the use of the word "scientists", even when quoted. There is no science involved, perhaps some statistically juggling trying to pass itself off as science, but no real science. Politicians, emotional idiots and want to be statisticians hoping for a single headline grabbing fix, the media groups with the emotional idiots usually.

duckonin
13th August 2012, 09:55
You want a bunch of people to learn to ride from scratch on the track?:eek5: That's gonna be bloody hard to fund, and will see new rider numbers plummet.

Controlling your machine does not need to be done fast, and most of it can be extrapolated from riding around a carpark or similar.

Drew, 'new rider' numbers are plummeting why ?
. A carpark offers nothing to any person to a point. A wide open space does. The comment you make (controlling your machine does not need to be done fast ). To use a track does not mean 'race/speed' it really is an area that can be used to modulate one's riding ability.

You learn nothing staying at the same level,. Levels have to be built on, hence experience gained. To gain a learners licence is a joke. A lady I spent time with went for her learners licence in Thames recently. Test was weave around five cones in a school playground, come to a stop with both feet on the ground,Passed that great. 'Really what a joke'.
Headed off down town passed the scratchies, issued a licence, then cut off into the wide world. Just as well she had spent a month with me first learning to ride around paddocks with the occasional fore out onto the quiet roads together. And yes we did the 'off to the netball courts' around cones and such.

She won a day with a riding school at Pukekohe that Tauranga Ulysses put up as a prize at their Easter egg run, this was on a track. After completing this day she beamed feeling she had learn't so much more about control of her bike. :clap: And a big thumbs up to those that ran the day.:2thumbsup

Drew
13th August 2012, 10:03
Hmmm, wonder if it was the location that was most beneficial to your friends riding or the training?

I cannot be bothered with this argument as it never goes anywhere. I have considered your point and still think the track has fuck all to do with it.

swbarnett
13th August 2012, 11:00
I object to the use of the word "scientists", even when quoted. There is no science involved, perhaps some statistically juggling trying to pass itself off as science, but no real science. Politicians, emotional idiots and want to be statisticians hoping for a single headline grabbing fix, the media groups with the emotional idiots usually.
I totally agree. You've captured what I was trying to imply perfectly.

GrayWolf
13th August 2012, 11:08
Drew, 'new rider' numbers are plummeting why ?
. A carpark offers nothing to any person to a point. A wide open space does. The comment you make (controlling your machine does not need to be done fast ). To use a track does not mean 'race/speed' it really is an area that can be used to modulate one's riding ability.

You learn nothing staying at the same level,. Levels have to be built on, hence experience gained. To gain a learners licence is a joke. A lady I spent time with went for her learners licence in Thames recently. Test was weave around five cones in a school playground, come to a stop with both feet on the ground,Passed that great. 'Really what a joke'.
Headed off down town passed the scratchies, issued a licence, then cut off into the wide world. Just as well she had spent a month with me first learning to ride around paddocks with the occasional fore out onto the quiet roads together. And yes we did the 'off to the netball courts' around cones and such.

She won a day with a riding school at Pukekohe that Tauranga Ulysses put up as a prize at their Easter egg run, this was on a track. After completing this day she beamed feeling she had learn't so much more about control of her bike. :clap: And a big thumbs up to those that ran the day.:2thumbsup

Duck, you are correct, EXPERIENCE needs to be built on and levels do need to progress... Experience on the track 'may' teach you to lean, brake harder, enter/exit corners, etc. I would completely agree with Drew, the track surface and environment has little correlation to riding on the road. Track days, do have value i wont deny this, however, as was shown by grantman's 'king of' CBR250 vid a newbie 'going for it' using 'race technique's' with little to no real understanding of the 'mechanics' involved to do it properly. I ride 365 and having learnt in England where they get 'real winters' :weep: no learner has 'experience' be it car, scooter or motorcycle until they have ridden a full year and dealt with all the various riding conditions, surface effects and weather conditions. Then yes, that could be the time to introduce 'handling' techniques that allow faster progress on a road.
What I have constantly argued over 'race riding' technique is that the 'Bible' (roadcraft manual) does not use 'race lines or handling techniques'... and as was shown in another thread, a UK Police 'persuit' driver was only a few seconds behind a touring car race driver, on a race circuit. Roadcraft teaches anticipation, observation and teaches/informs the skills needed to handle the bike in 'real world' riding conditions. Courses run with these principals will be of far greater benefit than any 'track day' for riders early on in their riding life.

Punchy
13th August 2012, 11:18
I think the last 10 pages can be summed up pretty quickly.

There is no magic bullet. Use your brain, your eyes, and keep practicing.

Police are more interested in people making it home to their families than making money for donuts.

Swoop
13th August 2012, 11:22
I think the last 10 pages can be summed up pretty quickly.

There is no magic bullet. Use your brain, your eyes, and keep practicing.
Also, ride by yourself (avoid group rides).

Drew
13th August 2012, 11:25
Also, ride by yourself (avoid group rides).

Don't be so fucking stupid, who will be impressed by my wheelies if the noobs don't come on group rides?

Scuba_Steve
13th August 2012, 12:27
Don't be so fucking stupid, who will be impressed by my wheelies if the noobs don't come on group rides?

You not discovered YouTube yet??? you can get street cred from pre-teen kids worldwide with that, why limit yourself locally.

bandit600
13th August 2012, 12:40
riding is a privilege; Some choose to ride for pleasure and some for the sheer thrill of how fast they can go; I agree with the fact of NO SPEEDING NO TICKETS! I have been riding thirty odd years and the only ticket I have had was for purportedly crossing a centre line; Can't argue with three traffic officers in the middle of the Hundalees near Kaikoura; My point is the rider is responsible predominately for their own safety and well-being on the road; Those that speed should not be given just a ticket they should be made to attend the emergency department and some acute areas to see the effects a crash has on the Rider; Stay safe out there!
:clap:

duckonin
13th August 2012, 13:15
Duck, you are correct, EXPERIENCE needs to be built on and levels do need to progress... Experience on the track 'may' teach you to lean, brake harder, enter/exit corners, etc. I would completely agree with Drew, the track surface and environment has little correlation to riding on the road. Track days, do have value i wont deny this, however, as was shown by grantman's 'king of' CBR250 vid a newbie 'going for it' using 'race technique's' with little to no real understanding of the 'mechanics' involved to do it properly. I ride 365 and having learnt in England where they get 'real winters' :weep: no learner has 'experience' be it car, scooter or motorcycle until they have ridden a full year and dealt with all the various riding conditions, surface effects and weather conditions. Then yes, that could be the time to introduce 'handling' techniques that allow faster progress on a road.
What I have constantly argued over 'race riding' technique is that the 'Bible' (roadcraft manual) does not use 'race lines or handling techniques'... and as was shown in another thread, a UK Police 'persuit' driver was only a few seconds behind a touring car race driver, on a race circuit. Roadcraft teaches anticipation, observation and teaches/informs the skills needed to handle the bike in 'real world' riding conditions. Courses run with these principals will be of far greater benefit than any 'track day' for riders early on in their riding life.

Yes thank you GW.. The most of my point is missed.. Everyone focuses on a 'track' as being a place to go fast.

As for Grantmans 'king' of CBR who cares about his 'race techniques' nope not I.

( Using a 'race track' forget that word, forget track days. Use 'safe wide open spaces' with no cars coming the other way, that way it does not conjure up the terrible word associated with a track ' speed/racing. I am not speaking of 'Race riding technique' /race lines,/ knee down bullshit..I speak of a good safe play ground with a good surface for a learner to enjoy. , how to stop, start, accelerate, turn, duck, dodge and weave untill they can move their bike safetly without fear of being hit up the arse if they do something wrong. which is exactly what would happen if they stalled their bike at some stop lights or ,give way sign, or just plain missed a gear change.:sweatdrop

GrayWolf
13th August 2012, 13:34
Yes thank you GW.. The most of my point is missed.. Everyone focuses on a 'track' as being a place to go fast.

As for Grantmans 'king' of CBR who cares about his 'race techniques' nope not I.

( Using a 'race track' forget that word, forget track days. Use 'safe wide open spaces' with no cars coming the other way, that way it does not conjure up the terrible word associated with a track ' speed/racing. I am not speaking of 'Race riding technique' /race lines,/ knee down bullshit..I speak of a good safe play ground with a good surface for a learner to enjoy. , how to stop, start, accelerate, turn, duck, dodge and weave untill they can move their bike safetly without fear of being hit up the arse if they do something wrong. which is exactly what would happen if they stalled their bike at some stop lights or ,give way sign, or just plain missed a gear change.:sweatdrop

Thank You Duck :)
I think you are correct, 'track day' immediately draws an image of 'hard out'.. possibly a perception fostered by those who 'rave about them'... I'd agree 100% with your thoughts re; riding in a safe area, to learn basic skills. Even to take it further and use the UK system of escorted/radio linked rides with highly experienced (Police or similar level) riders. I'm pretty sure there are other 'Donut Protectors' out there with a similar mindset to Rastuscat.... My guess is its the Paula's of this world who are just not interested in allowing a bit of 'community service' overtime for them. Last year my shifts clashed with every one of the local ACC funded courses, which was downright annoying to say the least.. I am determined to get one in this season, even if it means taking annual leave to accomplish it.. I am positive I will be 'scorched' for developing more bad habits than I realise :(

Gremlin
13th August 2012, 13:41
For those that are referencing skilled road riding, ala police time, look no further than the Institute of Advanced Motorists or IAM (http://www.nz-iam.org.nz/default.asp) It's for all motorists, but the motorcycle section is based off the UK IAM course which is based off the police rider training... not many countries have it available outside the UK, so we're lucky.

Everything has it's place, tracks are for learning the limits of machine and person in a relatively safe environment (emphasis on relative). The core skills for racing and road riding are completely different.

Racing is the fastest line, hardest braking, hardest acceleration. Road riding is the safest line (often you'd never hit the "apex" of the corner), minimal braking and acceleration and maximum visibility creating a smooth ride. Do it all, gain the skills and apply the correct ones for each given situation.

rastuscat
13th August 2012, 14:17
Will those of you who continue to write sensible stuff on my posts kindly desist. It's beginning to worry me that I might have people out there who agree with me.

Drew
13th August 2012, 14:40
Will those of you who continue to write sensible stuff on my posts kindly desist. It's beginning to worry me that I might have people out there who agree with me.
Get fucked coppa!

Better?

rastuscat
13th August 2012, 15:00
Get fucked coppa!

Better?

Whew, that's better.

oneofsix
13th August 2012, 15:18
Whew, that's better.

:lol: was the donut muncher getting worried he was being assimilated rather than educating? Keep calm, have another donut. :yes:

Oakie
13th August 2012, 17:38
:lol: was the donut muncher getting worried he was being assimilated rather than educating?

'Donut muncher'? Whew, thought I'd slipped into the gay marriage thread there for a second

Oakie
13th August 2012, 17:46
I. The point being made is... custom laid surface for grip, without pot holes, sheep/cow shit, tar snakes/patches. No ditches, sheep fencing, power poles, walls, fences, lamp posts etc etc,,,,

Cats! Don't forget cats. One of the most arse-puckering moments I ever had on a bike involved a big RH sweeper, a velocity approaching 140kph and a cat who decided not to wait until I'd passed. I missed it ... don't ask me how ... my eyes were closed. That was many years ago and I was young and stupid then.

I remember an interview with a fairly prominent NZ biker a few years ago. He said he'd only ride on the track as the road was too dangerous.

rastuscat
13th August 2012, 18:16
I remember an interview with a fairly prominent NZ biker a few years ago. He said he'd only ride on the track as the road was too dangerous.

Dennis Charlotte?

Drew
13th August 2012, 18:55
Dennis Charlotte?Craig Sherriffs hasn't owned a road bike since he first ticked up an RGV250 in 91 or some such yesteryear he told me. Fuckin stupid dangerous he reckons.

Didn't stop the tubby prick racing the Isle of man though.

rastuscat
13th August 2012, 18:57
Spoke to Dennis Charlotte at Ruapuna. He's happy to fly around a track at some fecking amazing speeds but said he won't ride on the road coz its too dangerous.

Hard to argue.

Madness
13th August 2012, 18:59
He's probably worried about Demerit Points.

Oakie
13th August 2012, 19:08
Dennis Charlotte?

Probably not. When I said 'a few years' I think on reflection it was proabably about 20 years ago...even more perhaps. He said something along the lines of "on the track there are no potholes, no animals, no pieces of 4x2 timber and no cars".

Berries
13th August 2012, 19:23
Spoke to Dennis Charlotte at Ruapuna. He's happy to fly around a track at some fecking amazing speeds but said he won't ride on the road coz its too dangerous.

Hard to argue.
Racers who do not ride on the road are motorbike racers, not motorbike riders, and there is a huge difference between the two. Their comments about riding on the road are about as valid as a car drivers simply because they don't.

Gremlin
13th August 2012, 19:30
Probably not. When I said 'a few years' I think on reflection it was proabably about 20 years ago...even more perhaps. He said something along the lines of "on the track there are no potholes, no animals, no pieces of 4x2 timber and no cars".
s'funny... As marshals, I see us fitting into 2 categories. Some start as marshals then get the bug and go racing. Others (myself included) see all the crashing and pain and think fuck that, I'll ride on the road thanks...

merv
13th August 2012, 19:35
Pity Charlett and Shirriffs, the number of times their names get spelt wrong. Give those two a donut each I say, or in NZ should that be doughnut?

warewolf
13th August 2012, 20:59
Worry not, if we catch cars, bikes, cycles etc failing to give way, we treat them all equally badly.IME that means doing bugger all, even if there's severe evasive action being taken by those whose right of way is being violated... because they weren't speeding. Kinda undermines the blue team's credibility until I start witnessing different behaviour.



So I picked the exit to a bend, where excess speed causes most problems, and now I'm getting bagged for it.Woulda thought excess speed at the entrance to a bend would be far more of a problem. :scratch:



Hmmm, I'm keeping all the donuts for myself...

Ender EnZed
13th August 2012, 21:07
Woulda thought excess speed at the entrance to a bend would be far more of a problem. :scratch:


To catch someone there the coppa would need to either be hidden or set up in the middle of the bend. Which could be fun.

ajturbo
15th August 2012, 19:39
Okay.

Per the OP, at the weekends the greatest risk of a motorcycle crash is on the open road between Christchurch and Akaroa. They are lone vehicle crashes, motorcycle fails to take a bend.

Appears to me that it's about riders over cooking corners. That's why I posted about taking a laser out there and giving it a nudge.

Nudged today for an hour. Didn't want to get Azkles back up, so I set up on a straight, targeting vehicles exiting a corner at the start of the straight I.e. vehicles coming around the corner fast.

In 46 minutes I stopped three folk to chat to.

A cyclist wearing no helmet. He had a medical exemption. Go figure.

A biker at 122. Nice line out of the corner though. Ticket issued. Had a good chat about crashes on the Akaroa road. Nice bloke.

Another biker at 112. First thing he said was "That's my Licence then". Like, it was MY fault. As it happened, I checked and he had 120 points already. Didn't even write the ticket, but we had a good chat about how some folk go through life with no tickets at all. And how some folk just keep getting them.

Quite a few other bikers went past, some waved 5 fingers, betting that some waved 2.

Just an update. We'll be nudging the Akaroa road at weekends. No speed, no ticket.

Donuts.

dam you.. you could have just talked to me as well...!!
but at least you thought my lines were ok...
and you think i'm a nice bloke.... you after a date???:facepalm:

rastuscat
15th August 2012, 19:58
dam you.. you could have just talked to me as well...!!
but at least you thought my lines were ok...
and you think i'm a nice bloke.... you after a date???:facepalm:

Doh!!!

How many more KBers am I going to have to stop before I get bribed with donut vouchers? :innocent:

Out of interest, how did it feel? I'm always interested in feedback, and here's a good place to hammer me if I deserve it........Was I a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard?

FJRider
15th August 2012, 20:07
Doh!!!

Out of interest, how did it feel? I'm always interested in feedback, and here's a good place to hammer me if I deserve it........Was I a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard?

That not a "was it as good for you ... as it was for me" question ... ??? was it .... ???

You should have asked that before you wrote the ticket.

Kickaha
15th August 2012, 20:22
Doh!!!
How many more KBers am I going to have to stop before I get bribed with donut vouchers? :innocent:

I'm already in credit so don't bother stopping me

.Was I a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard?
Aren't they all :whistle:

rastuscat
15th August 2012, 20:27
Cancelled a ticket today.

Stopped a bloke 4 weeks ago, no bike Licence. Wrote him the ticket. Told him I was running a devious scheme to deprive the Gubbermint of fine revenue. If he got a Licence I'd cancel the ticket.

Called me today, stoked that he had the 6L. Ticket cancelled.

Treasury must be rolling in its grave.

Go on Kicker, have at you.:motu:

scumdog
15th August 2012, 20:32
I'm already in credit so don't bother stopping me

Aren't they all :whistle:

Damn, I wish I could ascend to the level of 'a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard':confused:

Must try harder I s'pose

Kickaha
15th August 2012, 20:35
Damn, I wish I could ascend to the level of 'a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard':confused:

Rastus can give you lessons :bleh:

Hoping to head your way in a month or two, (Ducati dependent) you got hot chocolate in the work smoko room yet?

FJRider
15th August 2012, 20:35
Damn, I wish I could ascend to the level of 'a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard':confused:

Must try harder I s'pose

It seems to just come naturally for some. Taking the ticket book out of the glovebox might help. :shifty:

Drew
15th August 2012, 21:07
Fuck I'd love to be a cop. I'd be the biggest fascist, inconsistent, hypocrite arsehole ever.

That dick in Taihapi they called 'cash register' would have nuttin on me man.

scumdog
15th August 2012, 21:12
Rastus can give you lessons :bleh:

Hoping to head your way in a month or two, (Ducati dependent) you got hot chocolate in the work smoko room yet?


Got hot chokky AND a ticket already waiitng for ya bub!!:woohoo:

rastuscat
15th August 2012, 21:13
I'd be the biggest fascist, inconsistent, hypocrite arsehole ever

Sorry Drew, that jobs already taken.........:Punk:

scumdog
15th August 2012, 21:14
Fuck I'd love to be a cop. I'd be the biggest fascist, inconsistent, hypocrite arsehole ever.



Meh, I STARTED like that and got worse....:shutup:

Drew
15th August 2012, 21:15
Sorry Drew, that jobs already taken.........:Punk:

Bullshit, you asked for feed back earlier in this very thread!

rastuscat
15th August 2012, 21:18
Bullshit, you asked for feed back earlier in this very thread!

Hey, didn't say it was taken by me, I had Scummie in mind.......

Jantar
15th August 2012, 21:28
No. That description doesn't fit Scummy at all. I thought you meant Howard Broad.

Drew
15th August 2012, 21:28
Hey, didn't say it was taken by me, I had Scummie in mind.......
Oh right, yeah I've heard that.

Scuba_Steve
15th August 2012, 21:54
Damn, I wish I could ascend to the level of 'a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard':confused:

Must try harder I s'pose

Don't worry Scummy I know it's the hardest part, but all you got to do to become condescending is talk to everyone like they're a 4year old girl. Practice that a bit & you'll have it made...

Katman
15th August 2012, 21:58
That dick in Taihapi they called 'cash register' would have nuttin on me man.

His name's not Constable Colin Randle Mower by any chance, is it?

ajturbo
16th August 2012, 07:04
Doh!!!

How many more KBers am I going to have to stop before I get bribed with donut vouchers? :innocent:

Out of interest, how did it feel? I'm always interested in feedback, and here's a good place to hammer me if I deserve it........Was I a condescending, nasty revenue collecting quota bastard?


WTF do you mean.."How did it feel"...???
I know you got close to me... almost touching my hand as i passed over my licence... but i am sure that was the only contact we had?

in my years as a revenue giver, i have had the pleasure(?) of talking with a few of your fellow gang members...
and what i hate the most is when they try and lecture to me about how bad i was, that's when they get pissed off when i just laugh at them...
now your report card... hope your sitting down.

as a cop. "F" (cause you didn't give me a warning):lol:

to be honest it was ok...
you told me about the dangers of the Akaroa hill, how so many bikers stuff it up and fall off and that is why you were out there...
at least it was a nice day eh..
you were pleasant.
you didn't tell me your name, (that come out on the next date?)
you didn't make a dick of yourself by telling me how naughty i was, just the facts and a chat.. it was cool, but i am SURE meeting you in a bar somewhere would have been cheaper for me?
so to be honest

you score a " b+".. the reason you didn't get an "A" is because your not a woman.

i knew i was caught, could have done a runner? but after talking to you about where you do your training... i'm glad i didn't.. (didn't want to embarrass you and i was on the old buell, and cause i suck at going fast anyway.. and....:baby:)

ajturbo
16th August 2012, 07:09
Cancelled a ticket today.

Stopped a bloke 4 weeks ago, no bike Licence. Wrote him the ticket. Told him I was running a devious scheme to deprive the Gubbermint of fine revenue. If he got a Licence I'd cancel the ticket.

Called me today, stoked that he had the 6L. Ticket cancelled.

Treasury must be rolling in its grave.

Go on Kicker, have at you.:motu:

so if i pop around with a donut voucher... you'll do the same???

Drew
16th August 2012, 07:15
so if i pop around with a donut voucher... you'll do the same???

Flag the donuts and take some lube round.

ajturbo
16th August 2012, 07:19
Flag the donuts and take some lube round.

when you come down .. we can both do this eh?

Drew
16th August 2012, 07:28
when you come down .. we can both do this eh?

I don't plan on getting any tickets. I'd hate to do a runner and be another Akaroa statistic too.

duckonin
16th August 2012, 09:23
Fuck I'd love to be a cop. I'd be the biggest fascist, inconsistent, hypocrite arsehole ever.



So there would be no change then ?;)

Drew
16th August 2012, 10:18
So there would be no change then ?;)

Yeah there would, I'd be doing it in person instead of on here for my entertainment.

Seriously, is there a maximum iq figure for joining this place that I didn't know about? Cunts are just as thick as I fuckin am.

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 17:29
so if i pop around with a donut voucher... you'll do the same???

Cant see how I could apply compliance to a speeding ticket.

How about this. You promise to report your speed to me every time you speed, and I'll let you off this once.

Nah, can't see it taking off. :bye:

Subike
16th August 2012, 17:57
So you going to be out there collecting facts this weekend?
I might just have to go for a ride to little river if you are..
would love to get a speeding ticket, but bloody bike will not go fast enough for that to happen.........:eek5:

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 18:06
So you going to be out there collecting facts this weekend?
I might just have to go for a ride to little river if you are..
would love to get a speeding ticket, but bloody bike will not go fast enough for that to happen.........:eek5:

You want me to set up some 30kmh signs to make you feel better? Happy to take your Licence for being 51 over if you want to feel awesome.

Can you manage 81?

Nope, weekend off this weekend. I will be telling one of my troops to do the Akaroa Patrol.

Heads up. He feels that if he has to go the trouble of getting off his bike, then someone is getting a ticket. Remember, no speed, no speeding ticket.

FJRider
16th August 2012, 18:14
Remember, no speed, no speeding ticket.

There you go again .... using logic. :gob:

It wont catch on ... <_<

schrodingers cat
16th August 2012, 18:21
The nice man on the Lewis Pass gave me a fact sheet of how many twits have killed themselves hence him being required to do his job and give me a donation slip.

No lecture. No attitude. Bout all you can hope for really

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 18:24
The nice man on the Lewis Pass gave me a fact sheet of how many twits have killed themselves hence him being required to do his job and give me a donation slip.

No lecture. No attitude. Bout all you can hope for really

The Lewis Pass Operation is called Operation Jasmine. What shall we call the Akaroa Operation?

Drew
16th August 2012, 18:32
The Lewis Pass Operation is called Operation Jasmine. What shall we call the Akaroa Operation?How about, cunts ruining the Akaroa GP?

FJRider
16th August 2012, 19:18
The Lewis Pass Operation is called Operation Jasmine. What shall we call the Akaroa Operation?

Operation Lafayette .... ??? and on Sundays ... Operation Laugh a minute ...

schrodingers cat
16th August 2012, 19:18
The Lewis Pass Operation is called Operation Jasmine. What shall we call the Akaroa Operation?

Why? Cause it has a sickly smell??? LOL

Call it Operation Safety Car. The racers will get the joke
Everyone gets to ride round really slow and once the safety car comes in another crash is imminent...

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 19:47
How about, cunts ruining the Akaroa GP?

Not sure how that would look on a Police Document.:mellow:

Jantar
16th August 2012, 19:48
Operation Lafayette .... ??? and on Sundays ... Operation Laugh a minute ...


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FJRider again.

:clap: :killingme :clap:

FJRider
16th August 2012, 19:50
Not sure how that would look on a Police Document.:mellow:

Think of the publicity for the operation it would generate if it became public knowledge ... :yes:

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 20:08
Operation Police Told People What They Were Doing And Numpties Got Caught Anyway.

Sorry AJ, had to have a smile.:wings:

Oakie
16th August 2012, 20:15
Perhaps it's cunning reverse psychology and popo is going to be everywhere but the Akaroa Road this weekend?

Won't worry me. Nana-stylee me! (Not that I do the Akaroa Road any more anyway).

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 20:16
Why? Cause it has a sickly smell??? LOL

Call it Operation Safety Car. The racers will get the joke
Everyone gets to ride round really slow and once the safety car comes in another crash is imminent...

Like that. Nice one, Centurion. (Monty Python reference).

If I use this you win a GOOJF card. Get Out Of Jail Free.

schrodingers cat
16th August 2012, 20:17
Like that. Nice one, Centurion. (Monty Python reference).

If I use this you win a GOOJF card. Get Out Of Jail Free.

I'm not the Messiah. I'm just a very naughty boy

FJRider
16th August 2012, 20:19
Like that. Nice one, Centurion. (Monty Python reference).

If I use this you win a GOOJF card. Get Out Of Jail Free.

If he gets caught ... just give him the GOOF card. You already have the "application forms" ... but seem to have a reluctance to use them ... :confused:

rastuscat
16th August 2012, 20:26
I'm not the Messiah. I'm just a very naughty boy

Have it on DVD, but don't need to watch it, as I can recite 90% of it.

Happy are the cheese makers.........

Oakie
16th August 2012, 22:36
Happy are the cheese makers.........

Welease Woger!

gammaguy
16th August 2012, 23:20
The Lewis Pass Operation is called Operation Jasmine. What shall we call the Akaroa Operation?

how about operation SOCCER PLAYER

Silly Old Cunts Cant Even Ride Posing Like A Young Egotistical Racer

:confused:

Berries
16th August 2012, 23:37
Silly Old Cunts Cant Even Ride Posing Like A Young Egotistical Racer
That was a song by Jarvis Cocker.

rastuscat
17th August 2012, 10:33
Going with Operation Raumataki, it's Maori for Akaroa.

I'll score bonus donut points with the management for PCness.

oneofsix
17th August 2012, 10:41
Going with Operation Raumataki, it's Maori for Akaroa.

I'll score bonus donut points with the management for PCness.

But isn't Akaroa a Maori word meaning long harbour :confused: Talk about PC correctness overload. :facepalm:




Oh well anything for donuts :drool:

gammaguy
17th August 2012, 11:16
Akaroa

About as french as my Yamaha

swbarnett
17th August 2012, 12:41
... Remember, no speed, no speeding ticket.
While technically correct, not very helpfull. If I adhere to what you're suggesting the bike won't go anywhere. Although it will save me a shit load on fuel and maintenace.

On a more serious note, as I've said before, the negros in the US were told not to sit in the white section of the bus if they didn't want to get beaten up. Doesn't make it right.

rastuscat
17th August 2012, 14:02
While technically correct, not very helpfull. If I adhere to what you're suggesting the bike won't go anywhere.

Really? You can't ride and enjoy it without exceeding the speed limit plus tolerance?

Okay, allow me to rephrase.

No speed in excess of the speed limit, no speeding ticket for exceeding the speed limit.

For example, it's possible to ride assertively up the hill from Cooptown to the Hilltop without exceeding the speed limit, while still getting a bit of fun from your bike. Do that. Wipe the chicken strips from your tyres.

Just a suggestion on how to have fun without blowing the budget.

schrodingers cat
17th August 2012, 16:20
Mr Rastuscat,
I haz a questions.

Seriously.
In my current job I travel around 1000k per week driving a light vehicle (not a truck)
Having a GPS to guide me has been most educational.
What I have discovered is that driving over the speed limit doesn't really shorten my travel time enough to be be worth the drama and risk
However, what quickly lengthens my journey time is encountering many many road users travelling at 80 - 85kph

I know the speed limit isn't a target and if the conditions change adjust your speed and all of that. I also realise that reduced speed achieves more time to correct a mistake and less energy to dissapate in the event something goes wrong.

Those road users are obviously travelling at a speed that they feel safe and comfortable with so I applaud that.
What I wish was reinforced was the message that if another road user catches up to you they are obviously comfortable with a little more pace. Our roads are narrow and often without great vision so if the slower driver were to make a bit of effort the other driver could be past and on their way.

For me, if someone catches me I let them through and wish them well. I wouldn't call myself a great driver but I do try to be aware of what around me and drive accordingly

What is the police position on this? For sure at peak holiday periods there is a half hearted message along these lines. Its pretty poor driving but largely tolerated otherwise.

Ocean1
17th August 2012, 17:24
What is the police position on this? For sure at peak holiday periods there is a half hearted message along these lines. Its pretty poor driving but largely tolerated otherwise.

You have to ask?

They close the passing lanes for hollidays, shirly that tells you what the official line is.

Oakie
17th August 2012, 17:37
Going with Operation Raumataki, it's Maori for Akaroa.

I'll score bonus donut points with the management for PCness.

Hmm. I thought 'Akaroa' was the Maori word for Akaroa.

Google is one's amigo ... check for 'Raumatiki' half way down. Infact read the whole thing folks. It's jolly interesting. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=AMBPA19321122.2.17

rastuscat
17th August 2012, 18:37
Hmm. I thought 'Akaroa' was the Maori word for Akaroa.

Google is one's amigo ... check for 'Raumatiki' half way down. Infact read the whole thing folks. It's jolly interesting. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=AMBPA19321122.2.17

That was a good read. I got the name Raumataki from the office computer, it has a Maori reference dictionary which named Akaroa as Raumataki. I will shorten the Op name to Mataki, which means sitting and watching.

Sitting and watching, that's what we'll be doing, armed with a laser. If we can sit and watch in lots of different sites for several hours and not catch anyone, it'll be a raging success.

Thing is, it's most unlikely to happen. And that's why we are doing it.

:nono:

If I can sort out the Maori expression for sitting and watching while munching donuts I may review my call.

Gremlin
17th August 2012, 18:42
If I can sort out the Maori expression for sitting and watching while munching donuts I may review my call.
Until the boss translates it...

Oakie
17th August 2012, 19:23
I will shorten the Op name to Mataki, which means sitting and watching.

Brilliant! That's even betterer.

rastuscat
17th August 2012, 19:31
Mr Rastuscat,
I haz a questions.

Seriously.
In my current job I travel around 1000k per week driving a light vehicle (not a truck)
Having a GPS to guide me has been most educational.
What I have discovered is that driving over the speed limit doesn't really shorten my travel time enough to be be worth the drama and risk
However, what quickly lengthens my journey time is encountering many many road users travelling at 80 - 85kph

I know the speed limit isn't a target and if the conditions change adjust your speed and all of that. I also realise that reduced speed achieves more time to correct a mistake and less energy to dissapate in the event something goes wrong.

Those road users are obviously travelling at a speed that they feel safe and comfortable with so I applaud that.
What I wish was reinforced was the message that if another road user catches up to you they are obviously comfortable with a little more pace. Our roads are narrow and often without great vision so if the slower driver were to make a bit of effort the other driver could be past and on their way.

For me, if someone catches me I let them through and wish them well. I wouldn't call myself a great driver but I do try to be aware of what around me and drive accordingly

What is the police position on this? For sure at peak holiday periods there is a half hearted message along these lines. Its pretty poor driving but largely tolerated otherwise.

Dude, not ignoring you, just wanna give it the time it deserves, and its Friday night.

Promise a response by Sunday night.

neels
17th August 2012, 19:51
Mr Rastuscat,
I haz a questions.

Seriously.
In my current job I travel around 1000k per week driving a light vehicle (not a truck)
Having a GPS to guide me has been most educational.
What I have discovered is that driving over the speed limit doesn't really shorten my travel time enough to be be worth the drama and risk
However, what quickly lengthens my journey time is encountering many many road users travelling at 80 - 85kph

I know the speed limit isn't a target and if the conditions change adjust your speed and all of that. I also realise that reduced speed achieves more time to correct a mistake and less energy to dissapate in the event something goes wrong.

Those road users are obviously travelling at a speed that they feel safe and comfortable with so I applaud that.
What I wish was reinforced was the message that if another road user catches up to you they are obviously comfortable with a little more pace. Our roads are narrow and often without great vision so if the slower driver were to make a bit of effort the other driver could be past and on their way.

For me, if someone catches me I let them through and wish them well. I wouldn't call myself a great driver but I do try to be aware of what around me and drive accordingly

What is the police position on this? For sure at peak holiday periods there is a half hearted message along these lines. Its pretty poor driving but largely tolerated otherwise.

Dude, not ignoring you, just wanna give it the time it deserves, and its Friday night.

Promise a response by Sunday night.
Can you add to your considered response the people that travel the length of Johns Rd at 55kph, and them what drives at 65 from BP marshlands to Kaiapoi, and then continue to drive at 65 after they've reached the 50k signs. They really piss me off.

Kickaha
17th August 2012, 19:52
You want somewhere to target then you could try a bit closer to home and all the fucking numpties that cut the corner coming from Fernside onto Townsend road

Subike
17th August 2012, 20:05
Gee I guess we could all just list in this thread those places and actions that fuck us off when we are traveling around this munted city of ours, and then Rasta can tell his buddies where the "hot " spots are according to KB....
they must be the worst places, cause we say they are, and we know, we travel them everyday......
Um , um, um, cant think of one myself, but Im sure there is one,
somewhere///:sleep:

rastuscat
17th August 2012, 20:29
You want somewhere to target then you could try a bit closer to home and all the fucking numpties that cut the corner coming from Fernside onto Townsend road

I come home via that route most days.

I consider that most drivers wouldn't cut the road markings if the Waimak engineers had engineered the intersection for drivers.

Yeah, I could fill the quota there, but I don't like hammering things that shiny engineering caused.

Thought provoking though. Rigid enforcement of every law, is it really a good ideal? I think not.

Long term, engineering is the way to sort a lot of traffic problems. Engineer roads for an outcome and that's what you'll get.

Kickaha
17th August 2012, 20:57
I come home via that route most days.
So do I, I'm the guy not cutting the corner and having dickheads that do looking like they'll drive into the side of me

I consider that most drivers wouldn't cut the road markings if the Waimak engineers had engineered the intersection for drivers.
I wondered if it was designed like that to slow people down turning from Townsend right onto Fernside

Ocean1
17th August 2012, 20:57
I come home via that route most days.

I consider that most drivers wouldn't cut the road markings if the Waimak engineers had engineered the intersection for drivers.

Yeah, I could fill the quota there, but I don't like hammering things that shiny engineering caused.

Thought provoking though. Rigid enforcement of every law, is it really a good ideal? I think not.

Long term, engineering is the way to sort a lot of traffic problems. Engineer roads for an outcome and that's what you'll get.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rastuscat again.

Katman
18th August 2012, 16:37
I come home via that route most days.

I consider that most drivers wouldn't cut the road markings if the Waimak engineers had engineered the intersection for drivers.

Yeah, I could fill the quota there, but I don't like hammering things that shiny engineering caused.

Thought provoking though. Rigid enforcement of every law, is it really a good ideal? I think not.

Long term, engineering is the way to sort a lot of traffic problems. Engineer roads for an outcome and that's what you'll get.

I don't know the corner in question personally but cutting corners at intersections certainly sounds a worthy cause for ticketing.

Why wouldn't you police an intersection like that?

Oakie
18th August 2012, 17:24
Why wouldn't you police an intersection like that?

Because the design of the intersection itself leads people to do bad things. It should be the intersection that is ticketed.

Kickaha
18th August 2012, 17:41
Because the design of the intersection itself leads people to do bad things. It should be the intersection that is ticketed.

The intersection is inanimate it doesn't lead people to do anything, their shitty driving habits do

scumdog
18th August 2012, 17:51
Because the design of the intersection itself leads people to do bad things. It should be the intersection that is ticketed.


Like the booze-makers should be charged when somebody gets pinged for DIC??:shifty:

Subike
18th August 2012, 18:14
Sorry guys, before you comment on that intersection, drive it,
then you will understand.
The engineer who designed it mast have been on drugs the day he did,
It just does not make sense to any person with logic, why it is how it is.
Agree with Rasta, it would not be really fair on drivers to heavily target that intersection.
Many people have complained about it, but the shinny pants still disregard public pleas,
""Of course our engineer must be right , we pay him big money to design that intersection""

merv
18th August 2012, 19:28
Townsend Road could be fixed by having a median island put in it from the intersection back up to and around the curve that would be too high even for four wheel drives to drive over. This is a typical intersection where the engineers have tried to line it up perpendicular at the junction whereas previously it just met at the angle.

Kickaha
18th August 2012, 19:33
Sorry guys, before you comment on that intersection, drive it,
then you will understand.

I drive it every day and every day I see varying degrees of stupidity with people cutting it due to their laziness

Subike
18th August 2012, 19:43
I drive it every day and every day I see varying degrees of stupidity with people cutting it due to their laziness

yup I read that, but there are others who have commented and have not driven it, who want to get on the band wagon of justice too

Kickaha
18th August 2012, 19:47
Townsend Road could be fixed by having a median island put in it from the intersection back up to and around the curve that would be too high even for four wheel drives to drive over. This is a typical intersection where the engineers have tried to line it up perpendicular at the junction whereas previously it just met at the angle.

I think they should build that median island during the day after people have gone to work and then video the carnage when unsuspecting motorists cut it as usual on the way home :Punk:

Ocean1
18th August 2012, 19:48
I drive it every day and every day I see varying degrees of stupidity with people cutting it due to their laziness

Predictable behaviour, then.

So why the fuck not build the intersection to accomodate predictable human behaviour?

merv
18th August 2012, 20:48
... but Ocean1 its like Mrs merv always says to me when we see the ones that can't seem to steer within the lines - she says they can't have been any good at colouring in when they were a kid.

They need to learn to drive in the middle of the lane like they should - if they can't, build barriers so they will.

My other favourites are those that indicate a right turn start slowing down (any corner now, not the Townsend one) so you go to slip by them on the left as you are allowed to do when there is room and next thing holy shit to take a right turn they first swerve left. What the fuck for, why not just stay as close and left of the centre line as possible.

No matter what the road design there are morons out there. Some of us learnt to ride/drive on narrow back country roads that knew nothing of right design, transition curves and all that stuff - we just followed the road which followed the terrain usually and stayed on our side of it as much as we could and when narrow we sure as hell looked out for vehicles coming the other way.

merv
18th August 2012, 20:57
p.s. the Yanks have these sorts of thing everywhere at parking lots and the like - fit a few sets coming up to the intersection on Townsend so you can't drive the wrong way in that lane - that'll teach the fuckers.

http://www.hooverfence.com/catalog/entry_systems/traffic-control/traffic-spikes.htm

warewolf
18th August 2012, 21:00
Thought provoking though. Rigid enforcement of every law, is it really a good ideal? I think not.All laws are equal, but some laws are more equal than others. (Apologies to Orwell, G.)

That's obviously been the case for a good long time. Compare and contrast the effect of heavy enforcement of the speed limits in bringing down the average speeds, versus the lackadaisical enforcement of all the other laws and the continued appalling driving within the speed limit.

Ocean1
18th August 2012, 21:13
... but Ocean1 its like Mrs merv always says to me when we see the ones that can't seem to steer within the lines - she says they can't have been any good at colouring in when they were a kid.

Yeah. And you can ping the fuck out of them, and it'll make not a jot of difference.

Change the shape of the environment, though, and you can get consistently better results. If you THEN ping the fuck outa the recidivists delinquent offenders you get better results again. Traffic engimineers orta know all that shit.


Banging on about human behavioural intransigence might make us perfect drivers/riders feel good, but it don’t produce results.

rastuscat
18th August 2012, 21:17
Banging on about human behavioural intransigence might make us perfect drivers/riders feel good, but it don’t produce results.

Yeah, wot 'e sed.

I fink so enny way.

merv
18th August 2012, 21:34
So you are telling me that no matter what they won't learn. The only answer then is computer controlled cars that they aren't allowed to touch the controls on (plan 'B'), else back to my plan 'A' put things on the road they have to drive around or else they have serious consequences on the pocket e.g. burst tyres.

Back in the day a kid learnt not to touch the stove by touching it and getting burnt - just so slightly, but the lesson was learnt. Nowadays perhaps we are so PC people don't learn the physical skills they need.

No matter how good the road engineering is if they can't stay driving between the lines we've go a problem if we don't apply either plan 'A' or plan 'B'.

Ocean1
18th August 2012, 21:45
So you are telling me that no matter what they won't learn.

Yep. Actually, they're not looking for anyone elses opinion in the matter whatsoever. Their driving behaviour is genuinely heavily influenced by the shape of their surroundings, what we think about that isn't even on their list of shit to bother about that day. Or any other day.


The only answer then is computer controlled cars that they aren't allowed to touch the controls on (plan 'B'), else back to my plan 'A' put things on the road they have to drive around or else they have serious consequences on the pocket e.g. burst tyres.


Oh it's some form of plan A, every time. It's just that, while the required environmental variables are reasonably well understood they're not a part of the lore of any of the parties likely to be approving roading designs.

As usual, the inmates are managing the Asylum.

Kickaha
18th August 2012, 22:17
Traffic engimineers orta know all that shit.

Traffic engineers seem to spend all there time working out where to put in new sets of traffic lights and fuck up traffic flows, arseholes

Scuba_Steve
18th August 2012, 22:28
Traffic engineers seem to spend all there time working out where to put in new sets of traffic lights and fuck up traffic flows, arseholes

yea I believe the prerequisite to become a traffic engineer is an absence of drivers licence &/ vehicle as well as a lack of logical or intelligent reasoning.

Ocean1
18th August 2012, 22:30
Traffic engineers seem to spend all there time working out where to put in new sets of traffic lights and fuck up traffic flows, arseholes

I don't know who's usually at meetings where those decisions are made but it wouldn't come as a huge shock to me to discover that no engineering qualifications formed the final decision. I'd be surprised if any engineering input was even considered in forming a budget.

caspernz
18th August 2012, 22:33
So you are telling me that no matter what they won't learn. The only answer then is computer controlled cars that they aren't allowed to touch the controls on (plan 'B'), else back to my plan 'A' put things on the road they have to drive around or else they have serious consequences on the pocket e.g. burst tyres.

Back in the day a kid learnt not to touch the stove by touching it and getting burnt - just so slightly, but the lesson was learnt. Nowadays perhaps we are so PC people don't learn the physical skills they need.

No matter how good the road engineering is if they can't stay driving between the lines we've go a problem if we don't apply either plan 'A' or plan 'B'.

Yep, many noddy devices would improve drivers' skills along the way.

Drive with only park lights on would earn you a flick with a fishing rod on the neck...

Speed up from 75 to 105 just because you've entered a bit of three lane would earn you a busted nose...

Talk on your cellphone and weave all over the road would see that cellphone inserted rectally without the aid of any KY...

Drive drunk once, get two weeks community service picking up rubbish. Drive drunk twice, roadside execution, no exceptions...

Nothing wrong with savage devices to stop noddies becoming ghost drivers, the Germans have used the sharks teeth approach for years. That's a mistake you only make once...:facepalm: