Forced induction 100cc

[Sketchy_Racer]

Okay, so I was going to keep this quiet incase it turned into an epic fail, but i figured some of the jokers out there may find some interest into this.

I decided a while back that I quite like the idea of forced induction, I built a 250cc turbo bike as a bit of a laugh and it's great fun however not really suitable power for anything at all and as you could imagine trying to turbo a bike half the size wouldn't really work that well.

So the next option is supercharging. Sounds like a great idea until you work out that the smallest supercharger is still far to big for a 100cc motor, it would make boost however I believe that it may still draw so much energy to power the over sized super charger that the gains would be offset. I thought that it would be possible to build a small supercharger so I went about designing one in solid works.

I designed two different styles, both roots style supercharger but one with a two lobe rotor and one with 3 lobe. The two lobe rotor was much harder to draw because they rely on cycloid curves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cycloid_f.gif

They are simple by nature but making them in solidworks is a little more involved as they need a parametric equation to create them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocycloid

Once the math is done it was pretty straight forward though


Next was the motor to use, this was pretty easy as the cost and avaliability of parts were the main goal for me, I purchased a 125cc Lifan engine for $350.00

Before the haters get going, I have also ordered a sleeve kit for it to drop it to 100cc

http://www.akunar.com/CYLINDER_SLEEVES.htm

They are a simple motor and before it ever gets run it will be getting replacement bearings but I am happy with the weight of it and also the design, it looks like it will work ok (and a new head assembly is only $60 and piston kit is $20 !!!)

The horizontal motor works great in the chassis for two reason, one being that it keeps the COG nice and low which is often over looked in a bucket and also it gives me much more space to work with above the engine for a supercharger and intercooler.

My supercharger is just a baby, and I want it that way a large focus on the build is trying to keep the rotational mass as low as possible as well as keeping my drive losses to a minimum.

The assembly weight will be touch over 3kg for the supercharger which I am happy with, I may lighten it a bit more with some heat finning which will also help reduce intake air temp.

That's about it for now and here's some pictures as they say a thousand words.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

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[bogan]

I'm not a bucketeer, but it is cool to see what you fullas come up with! Good onya for giving it a hoon :2thumbsup

That thing is tiny! How were the lobes made? Whats the clearance like? Guess if it spins fast enough it might reduce the amount of 'blowback', one of those back of the mind project ideas I had myself, so hopefully yours will work and give me motivation...

[richban]

Nice work. I'll take one thanks. Just so happens I have an FXR engine that needs a rebuild.

[Kickaha]

The horizontal motor works great in the chassis for two reason, one being that it keeps the COG nice and low which is often over looked in a bucket and also it gives me much more space to work with above the engine for a supercharger and intercooler.

There is another one being built using a similar motor for the same reasons

[Sketchy_Racer]

I'm not a bucketeer, but it is cool to see what you fullas come up with! Good onya for giving it a hoon :2thumbsup

That thing is tiny! How were the lobes made? Whats the clearance like? Guess if it spins fast enough it might reduce the amount of 'blowback', one of those back of the mind project ideas I had myself, so hopefully yours will work and give me motivation...


Yep it's tiny alright, the rotors weigh 80 grams each

They were made in CNC mill

http://westurn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mb-56va.jpg

Tooks 10 minutes to mill each rotor but was taking it easy with the finishng cuts as size is quite important.

The rotors will have .05mm clearance between each other and .03 on the outer housing.

[Pumba]

Very very cool

[Henk]

Sweet. Do this thing, if for no other reason than because you can.

[koba]

That is sobloodycool.

[koba]

so I was going to keep this quiet incase it turned into an epic fail

Getting it that far is a win in my books.

[gav]

Have you considered just fitting an 80cc MX motor instead? I'm sure no one would mind ..... ;)













But that looks bloody nice! Good work Glen.

[Grumph]

Nice work, the Martin blowers which were made in ChCh used an extrusion for the rotors. Cost the original maker a bloody fortune as Comalco insisted he pay for the dies.....However once done production is much more viable as you can make blowers in a range of lengths with the same rotor profile.
3 Lobe....all the info I've ever seen suggests that the 3 lobe layout suits relatively low rpm use. The guy who was responsible for the final versions of the Martin blower did quite a lot of flow work and bench measuring of efficiency and came up with a guide bar across entry and exit openings which reduced churning and let the 2 lobe design work up to over 10 grand. This was important when you put a small blower on a biggish road car motor as it has to be run at higher than engine speed.
Now the fun bit - how are you driving it - and what fuel metering ? Carb (laughs out loud) or injection ?

There's a neat trick to take drive off a plain shaft without keys or splines if you need to know.
Clearances worry me a tad - even in smal sizes the rotors will expand - end clearance is particularly sensitive. Be generous.

[speedpro]

I'm sure one of the supercharged singles from the early days used a similar style Honda engine and the supercharger was a modified VC160 lawnmower engine sucking through a reed valve and carb. The same guy, Neil Hintz, built another one with a shortened roots type blower. He also built a rotary vane compressor mounted direct to the crank of a CB100 style Honda. Shock loads in the drive was always a problem as I understand.

Agree with the comments about allowing clearance. If you have any doubts blow warm/hot air through it to warm the rotors and try turning it. On drag race motors they have a bit of clearance but use teflon lip seals. The good ones I've seen are magnesium though so not sure about expansion etc compared to alloy.

I'm thinking of carrying on with mine. I really should put the MB engine in the RS chassis leaving the FZR chassis with nothing in it.

[Buckets4Me]

now this is talking and in the spirit of bucket racing :p :clap:

if you FAIL !!!! :lol: we will all have a laugh (with you not at you)

and if you succed :banana::2thumbsup good we all want you to

just makesure the pictures keep coming
and go check out the E.S.E thread they talked about how to turn the suppercharger over without robbing power from the motor :headbang::devil2: just dont tell anyone till you have run it like that

[Sketchy_Racer]

Nice work, the Martin blowers which were made in ChCh used an extrusion for the rotors. Cost the original maker a bloody fortune as Comalco insisted he pay for the dies.....However once done production is much more viable as you can make blowers in a range of lengths with the same rotor profile.
3 Lobe....all the info I've ever seen suggests that the 3 lobe layout suits relatively low rpm use. The guy who was responsible for the final versions of the Martin blower did quite a lot of flow work and bench measuring of efficiency and came up with a guide bar across entry and exit openings which reduced churning and let the 2 lobe design work up to over 10 grand. This was important when you put a small blower on a biggish road car motor as it has to be run at higher than engine speed.
Now the fun bit - how are you driving it - and what fuel metering ? Carb (laughs out loud) or injection ?

There's a neat trick to take drive off a plain shaft without keys or splines if you need to know.
Clearances worry me a tad - even in smal sizes the rotors will expand - end clearance is particularly sensitive. Be generous.


Interesting about the extruded parts, I would have though it would take a lot of production to weigh up the cost of getting a die made, especially when the rotors are such easy parts to make.

I went the three lobe as because I had read the same as you regarding lower RPM use, I would like to keep RPM as low as possible to try reduce heat and also again try keep the rotating mass under control.

I am planning on running a carb with a draw through system, much like this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCURXinXoEg

It seems to work well for him so I am hoping it will work well for me also. I may look into fuel injection later on but at the moment I am sure I will have enough little bugs to work out with the supercharger and motor.

I am going to be running an ignitec on it as I need a rev limiter and also will need a boost compensated curve on it.

Regarding clearances, what would you recommend?

I have based my numbers about the thermal expansion of 6061 T3 alloy which is; 23 microns, per meter per 1 degree celcius and then a fudge factor for rotational stretch.

I want it to be as efficient as possible so was also going to try running a small amount of two stroke premix in the fuel (as it will be draw through) to keep the rotors sealed and lubed if there are any points of contact.

Any thoughts, and yes I am very interesting in your shaft locking method. I was looking at making a gear with a tapered ID with a taper ring that gets clamped in there but would like to know how others have successfully done it.

Check out this video at around 1:20 mark, it uses the same idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=m-ZWPnvC0wc

Cheers

-Sketchy

[Henk]

Neat project.
Regarding the cost of dies etc, for big runs extruding would still be the way to cost wise but for small runs or one offs CNC is the ticket. Solid works and the wide availability of CNC machines have been a real game changer for this sort of thing as evidenced by the amount of billet bling available these days at what is really super cheap prices.

[carburator]

semi done the numbers converion, ok im a old fart and imperial is my game..
thats a pretty tight clearace you are running and certainly case rub or rotor
clash will happen

id have to look at my book for the case clearances we ran but certainly
0.002" lobe to lobe and 0.004 lobe to case.. mind you we over drove the
bloody thing to make !!!! PSI

Using the carb as a suck through certainly with a drop
or three of two stroke oil will help lube the lobes..

watching with interest! Carb's

[Yow Ling]

Great to see some more high tech sneaking in to buckets, show those it has to be cheap or crap clowns the way to go!
Amazing what a $150,000 mill or a $100,000 cam grinding machine can do for our sport. Then the underlying software that makes it all tick, the future of buckets is rosy. All a bit complicated compared to a wobbly pipe and a bit of port grinding, but I guess it takes all kinds

[Sketchy_Racer]

semi done the numbers converion, ok im a old fart and imperial is my game..
thats a pretty tight clearace you are running and certainly case rub or rotor
clash will happen

id have to look at my book for the case clearances we ran but certainly
0.002" lobe to lobe and 0.004 lobe to case.. mind you we over drove the
bloody thing to make !!!! PSI

Using the carb as a suck through certainly with a drop
or three of two stroke oil will help lube the lobes..

watching with interest! Carb's

Yeah I am thinking I may look at increasing the clearances, it still easy to do as I haven't built the housing yet. I'll do some research on how much pressure leak I will get with more clearance and go from there.



Great to see some more high tech sneaking in to buckets, show those it has to be cheap or crap clowns the way to go!
Amazing what a $150,000 mill or a $100,000 cam grinding machine can do for our sport. Then the underlying software that makes it all tick, the future of buckets is rosy. All a bit complicated compared to a wobbly pipe and a bit of port grinding, but I guess it takes all kinds

Yep modern CNC equipment is awesome and really opens up the options, the CNC that made the rotors is $400,000 worth but it is capable of far more than making a simple supercharger. The problem with them though is that they have to be making chips to be making money so down time/ perk time is almost non existant. May have to buy my own little CNC mill one day

[pete376403]

Yeah I am thinking I may look at increasing the clearances, it still easy to do as I haven't built the housing yet. I'll do some research on how much pressure leak I will get with more clearance and go from there.

Teflon strip inserts in the lobe tips (a bit like tip seals in a mazda rotary) would be one option

[Grumph]

You're onto it - the split tapered ring trick works well. Just remember to have a couple of tapped holes in your outer ring so you can separate the bits again.....5 degree taper is all you need too.
Carburation - by all means get it running on a carb - just don't use a slide type. Slides rely on tract pulsations not to stick. with a blower the airflow is all one way and the slide WILL stick. The good old SU works surprisingly well and there are small ones round.

The original Martin blower was done way before CNC stuff was available hence the extrusion...I was told Comalco insisted on a minimum order of 1 tonne of extrusion...

Clearances - on a 750cc swept vol blower about 150mm long we finished up with about .020in clearance - endwise. The rotors had a teflon strip mitred into the OD - if it touched it robbed power so it was run and examine and scrape for clearance....we lost 2 lb boost once we had the clearances right and it was reliable.

Personally I'd have used a bigger blower run slower....we did run ours at engine speed but we had been assured efficiency would be good and it was but even on Meth we had "hot blower" prolems...

PS can't comment on videos as I can't see them - on dialup with crap equipment

[jonbuoy]

I run a supercharger sucking through an SU carb, other than an off idle lean stumble the carb keeps things amazingly well metered according to the AFR meter. Pretty sure mine has some sort of coating on it, you might be able to get someone like HPC to coat the case and rotor with a piston skirt anti friction type coating.

http://www.hpcoatings.co.nz/AdvancedEngineCoatings/tabid/32278/Default.aspx

[Sketchy_Racer]

Okay so got a bit more work done on the bike today.

I have built a subframe for the motor which was pretty much the only way to get it mounted, the pitbike motor mounts were a mile off the suzuki ones.

The frame is nice and light, made out of 25 x 3mm flat steel with cross braces to get the rigidity.

I also got the gear lever linkage sorted and almost finished, just have to turn up a mount and tidy it up. it's completly adjustable for height and distance from the foot peg.

I moved the foot pegs from their old position as they were to far back and will look at tidying up the rear sets.

Coming along nicely but the brain is working overtime trying to figure out what I want to use for an intercooler. Anything from a car is waaay to big so i'm thinking of getting a high flow radiator off a MX bike and welding some larger inlets onto it, what's the thoughts on this idea? I haven't got a flow bench so I'll have a measure up of the core sizes and calculate the expected flow loss.

266708266709266710

[Sketchy_Racer]

You're onto it - the split tapered ring trick works well. Just remember to have a couple of tapped holes in your outer ring so you can separate the bits again.....5 degree taper is all you need too.
Carburation - by all means get it running on a carb - just don't use a slide type. Slides rely on tract pulsations not to stick. with a blower the airflow is all one way and the slide WILL stick. The good old SU works surprisingly well and there are small ones round.

The original Martin blower was done way before CNC stuff was available hence the extrusion...I was told Comalco insisted on a minimum order of 1 tonne of extrusion...

Clearances - on a 750cc swept vol blower about 150mm long we finished up with about .020in clearance - endwise. The rotors had a teflon strip mitred into the OD - if it touched it robbed power so it was run and examine and scrape for clearance....we lost 2 lb boost once we had the clearances right and it was reliable.

Personally I'd have used a bigger blower run slower....we did run ours at engine speed but we had been assured efficiency would be good and it was but even on Meth we had "hot blower" prolems...

PS can't comment on videos as I can't see them - on dialup with crap equipment

Great, glad to hear the taper lock will work, makes timing the lobes to each other much easier and obviously adjustable.

Wow, that's quite a bit more clearance than I would expect, .020in is .5mm - 10x the clearance I have planned for

Okay so lets say the rotors get up to 100 degrees (worst case scenario maybe heat soak after a race or something) then it would be possible for the rotor to expand lengthwise by 0.092mm which leaves me with less than 0.01mm clearance on my current size, so I might double my clearance so that worst case scenario I will still have .05mm clearance.

I am going to get all ally parts hard anodized in hope to trying prevent and sticking if one of the rotors were to contact each other. Also as previously mentioned I plan on running a very small amount of two stroke oil in the mix too.



I run a supercharger sucking through an SU carb, other than an off idle lean stumble the carb keeps things amazingly well metered according to the AFR meter. Pretty sure mine has some sort of coating on it, you might be able to get someone like HPC to coat the case and rotor with a piston skirt anti friction type coating.

http://www.hpcoatings.co.nz/AdvancedEngineCoatings/tabid/32278/Default.aspx

Glad to hear that the suck through carb setup works well, I don't have a SU carb but I do have a modified CV slide carb for my turbo bike that turned out to be to small so will probably be great for this as it has a butterfly controlled throttle.

[cs363]

Coming along nicely but the brain is working overtime trying to figure out what I want to use for an intercooler. Anything from a car is waaay to big so i'm thinking of getting a high flow radiator off a MX bike and welding some larger inlets onto it, what's the thoughts on this idea? I haven't got a flow bench so I'll have a measure up of the core sizes and calculate the expected flow loss.

Have you checked out some of the OEM car intercoolers? Some of them aren't that big e.g:http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/toyota/engines/auction-495673572.htm

I'd be thinking a motorcycle radiator wouldn't have enough flow as the core sizes are quite small, then again it's not a big engine...... Hmmmm, what about a radiator off a computer water cooling set up, they even come with a fan attached!


Awesome project BTW!

[Kickaha]

Coming along nicely but the brain is working overtime trying to figure out what I want to use for an intercooler. Anything from a car is waaay to big so i'm thinking of getting a high flow radiator off a MX bike and welding some larger inlets onto it, what's the thoughts on this idea? I haven't got a flow bench so I'll have a measure up of the core sizes and calculate the expected flow loss.
Some car factory intercoolers aren't that big, you can cut one down inline with the tubes between the tanks to size and make your own tanks/inlet/outlet

Alternatively you make a tube with another tube running through it and run lpg between the two for cooling, should make for a good explosion at some stage

[Sketchy_Racer]

Have you checked out some of the OEM car intercoolers? Some of them aren't that big e.g:http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/toyota/engines/auction-495673572.htm

I'd be thinking a motorcycle radiator wouldn't have enough flow as the core sizes are quite small, then again it's not a big engine...... Hmmmm, what about a radiator off a computer water cooling set up, they even come with a fan attached!


Awesome project BTW!

hmm that intercooler looks good, still far to large for the 100cc motor but could double as a plenum as well I guess.

I had a look at the computer ones but they are all far to small, good idea though, i've also thought about a oil cooler.


Some car factory intercoolers aren't that big, you can cut one down inline with the tubes between the tanks to size and make your own tanks/inlet/outlet

Alternatively you make a tube with another tube running through it and run lpg between the two for cooling, should make for a good explosion at some stage

Take a look at this picture

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/images/satelissetup.jpg

That radiator is acctually the intercooler for a 125cc supercharged Peugeot scooter, Looks just like a normal radiator with large inlets so it might be an option after all.

The LPG thing is cool, I have some liquid nitrogen at work that'd prob work pretty well too....

[Kickaha]

I have some liquid nitrogen at work that'd prob work pretty well too....

No point, it wont explode if you crash:cool:

[ducatilover]

I made a small I/C out of Nissan GTS-T and SR20DET factory coolers a few years back, was rather small, it's not overly difficult. Modifying an item off a Dihatsu Charade GTTi might be worth a look, they're very small to start with.
Love this project, that blower is super cool :drool:

[cs363]

hmm that intercooler looks good, still far to large for the 100cc motor but could double as a plenum as well I guess.

I had a look at the computer ones but they are all far to small, good idea though, i've also thought about a oil cooler.

Just had a thought, there's a few small Suzuki turbo cars like the Wagon-R and Cappucino that run small intercoolers (660cc engine) that might be worth a look.

Here's a couple:

Wagon-R: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-WAGON-R-1998-Intercooler-9532050-/330753249812?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d026e1214&vxp=mtr#ht_9676wt_1163

Cappucino: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-CAPPUCCINO-1991-Intercooler-0802050-/330753308876?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d026ef8cc&vxp=mtr#ht_9676wt_1163

Measurements for the Cappucino intercooler are:

Flow - 113 cfm
Mass - 0.8kg
Core Measurements - 10.8 x 18.0 x 5cm = 972cm3

Might be something available locally from a Suzuki wreckers.

(Edit: As ducatilover mentions, Daihatsu's could be worth a look, though from memory they have a relatively large intercooler compared to the Suzuki's)


There's also a few outfits in the State's making small intercoolers for turbo bikes & ATV's (mainly Harleys & big bore ATV/UTV's, so probably a bit big), one example is Procharger (see pics)

http://www.procharger.com/images/faceted.jpghttp://www.procharger.com/images/rounded.jpg

[ducatilover]

You're right, the GTTi had a larger cooler than the Cuppa/Wagon R. A Wagon R unit will be reasonably easy to find in NZ. If you find one, let me know where, I'll be interested in the turbo :niceone:

[Grumph]

The blower is going to get HOT...ours on Meth (which had quite an effect on mixture temp) got too hot to touch...
An air to air intercooler IMO won't be good enough unless very big. It's a bucket hence airflow through any cooling system is going to be a problem whatever you do. Clearances must allow the blower to turn freely when very hot even if it loses boost as result.
Temperature is going to be your limiting factor everywhere - boost and compression ratio will be critical. I don't even like the thought of running 2T oil in the fuel as it may be enough to cause deto. Toluene is your friend...in avgas, mixed away from the track and brought along in a plain can.

[Yow Ling]

you cant put an intercooler on a drawthrough system

[Sketchy_Racer]

The blower is going to get HOT...ours on Meth (which had quite an effect on mixture temp) got too hot to touch...
An air to air intercooler IMO won't be good enough unless very big. It's a bucket hence airflow through any cooling system is going to be a problem whatever you do. Clearances must allow the blower to turn freely when very hot even if it loses boost as result.
Temperature is going to be your limiting factor everywhere - boost and compression ratio will be critical. I don't even like the thought of running 2T oil in the fuel as it may be enough to cause deto. Toluene is your friend...in avgas, mixed away from the track and brought along in a plain can.


Yes I think you are right and as Yow Ling below says I probably wont be able to run a intercooler through a draw through system because of fuel dropout issues. I might have to design a water to air system that makes sure there is not possibility of fuel drop out.


you cant put an intercooler on a drawthrough system

Yep, completely overlooked that issues.
I guess it's back to solid works to design a water to air style that incorporates the plenum and pop-off valve into it.

I'll post what I come up with and see what you all think.

[ducatilover]

Surely a draw through on a blower that small will keep itself cool enough? Otherwise you could set up meth injection to the rotors?

[Kickaha]

What about a water injection system?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Surely a draw through on a blower that small will keep itself cool enough? Otherwise you could set up meth injection to the rotors?

Depends on the supercharge efficiency. it's a bit hard to calculate on paper how efficient it will be so will have to wait until I get it finished. I was going to have a look at calculating the expected temperature rise if the blower was 100% efficient but I don't have enough information about the setup yet, and the equation would take me a little bit to figure out.

Either way a turbo charger on car running at around 80% efficiency will easily see intake air temps of 80 - 100 degrees before a intercooler, so getting rid of that heat is going to be rather important.

[bogan]

Yes I think you are right and as Yow Ling below says I probably wont be able to run a intercooler through a draw through system because of fuel dropout issues. I might have to design a water to air system that makes sure there is not possibility of fuel drop out.



Yep, completely overlooked that issues.
I guess it's back to solid works to design a water to air style that incorporates the plenum and pop-off valve into it.

I'll post what I come up with and see what you all think.

Maybe time to step back a bit, and re-evaluate FI and standard intercooler? Just seems like there is talk of a lot of build work to get it running with carbs, when FI offers tuning advantages, and it doesn't sound that hard to do...

[Sketchy_Racer]

What about a water injection system?

Weight would be the killer . The pump size to get enough pressure to atomize the water well enough will be to big and also draw to much current.

Not to mention carrying an extra tank of water.

I run water injection on my diesel tow wagon and although I only monitor exhaust temp gas with just water I see about a 50 degree drop and with methanol 50/50 mix I see 100 degree drop with probably 20% power increase.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Maybe time to step back a bit, and re-evaluate FI and standard intercooler? Just seems like there is talk of a lot of build work to get it running with carbs, when FI offers tuning advantages, and it doesn't sound that hard to do...

Yes this is true, I could look at stealing the fuel system of a late model 250 MX bike with FI would be easy to get.

However running a draw through system does have it's advantages in terms of helping the supercharger efficiency

From the elsberg tuning site


Running mixture through the supercharger does have several advantages, as it "seals" the rotors at ends and tips, making it pump more efficiently, and another bonus is a reduction in the charge- temperature. And I have to mention that I in several cases have seen an increased mileage in no- boost situations, when running the blower "wet", which leads me to think that the whirling rotors have an effect too, as they "atomize" the charge into smaller particles.

[bogan]

As long as the lower efficiency of blow through is more than balanced out by lower temps (therefore higher power), it's still a better option isn't it?

[Yow Ling]

Depends on the supercharge efficiency. it's a bit hard to calculate on paper how efficient it will be so will have to wait until I get it finished. I was going to have a look at calculating the expected temperature rise if the blower was 100% efficient but I don't have enough information about the setup yet, and the equation would take me a little bit to figure out.

Either way a turbo charger on car running at around 80% efficiency will easily see intake air temps of 80 - 100 degrees before a intercooler, so getting rid of that heat is going to be rather important.

My book says a shorrock supercharger is 65 to 70% efficient and a roots blower is less, because efficiency will drop even further as the scale goes down, the temp rise may be a bigger problem
The book is Turbocharging and Supercharging by Alan Allard, ISBN 0-85059-494-4 was printed in 1982 so most of it is relavent to this project

[Yow Ling]

some links in here
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=25023

[Yow Ling]

this is pretty small intercooler, for scale the drainpipe is 75mm
has quite a large volume in the end tanks. I was going to put it on my Fiat 500, its off some 500 or 600cc jap import
266723

[pete376403]

Weight would be the killer . The pump size to get enough pressure to atomize the water well enough will be to big and also draw to much current. .

A water injection system I made for a turbo (car) used a windscreen washer tank and pump squirting into the turbo inlet through (pretty small) carburettor jet - although atomisation wasn't really an issue because as soon as the water stream hit the compressor wheel it was pretty well vapourised. Did the job, though

[jonbuoy]

If your only running moderate levels of boost how much of a difference is an air to air charge cooler going to make especially at lower speeds? You could water jacket the supercharger itself if its just running temps your worries about, there is a weld on kit for my eaton that puts a water jacket over the plenum with a circulating pump and a wee radiator.

[speights_bud]

Awesome reading,

used to make similar parts at my old job, except 6" Diameter lobes and made from food grade stainless steel. just so happens the promo video on this page wanks on about them: http://www.we-can.co.nz/

They are a delicate setup, the ceramic seals alone are a couple thousand per pump (about 2" Dia), although the clearance's are slightly bigger than what you are talking about at 0.05 to 0.08 per side of the rotor on the housings. the lobe to lobe clearance was 0.15 to 0.20. these are for pumping fluids around dairy factorys etc.

Makes a hell of a mess of the housings when the clearances aren't right and the lobe pick up on the body, or when the fitter at the plant drops his spanner and it ends up going through the new one you just built :(

-->Just been reading back through the thread, although the lobes we made had splines, the helical gears in the back which timed and drove them were often mounted using the taper lock method, depended on the brand of pump as the the method.

[Grumph]

If your only running moderate levels of boost how much of a difference is an air to air charge cooler going to make especially at lower speeds? You could water jacket the supercharger itself if its just running temps your worries about, there is a weld on kit for my eaton that puts a water jacket over the plenum with a circulating pump and a wee radiator.

It's a catch 22 situation - he can't run mild boost, he's got to push the envelope to try and be competitive. This can lead as I found to complication and it's partner in crime - weight...
With a 100, the target is already 300bhp/liter - on petrol. And the better FXR's and 2 strokes are lighter.

Some years back I thought about doing one but when alky got dropped as an allowable fuel for the "open" 100cc fourstrokes I said no, not feasible. Alky worked on several levels - the main one was internal cooling which just made things so much easier.

The Loncin is probably going to melt valves anyway.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

If your only running moderate levels of boost how much of a difference is an air to air charge cooler going to make especially at lower speeds? You could water jacket the supercharger itself if its just running temps your worries about, there is a weld on kit for my eaton that puts a water jacket over the plenum with a circulating pump and a wee radiator.

Surprisingly, it only takes around 35kph of air flow to have massive affects on cooling, I vaguely remember reading about it early in the ESE thread where they are trying to maximise cooling on a 125cc air cooled motor.

I do love the idea of internally cooling the pump, that would be massively beneficial as it's where a lot of the heat is introduced. Wouldn't need a pump either, thermosypon would work great for that sort of application.


Awesome reading,

used to make similar parts at my old job, except 6" Diameter lobes and made from food grade stainless steel. just so happens the promo video on this page wanks on about them: http://www.we-can.co.nz/

They are a delicate setup, the ceramic seals alone are a couple thousand per pump (about 2" Dia), although the clearance's are slightly bigger than what you are talking about at 0.05 to 0.08 per side of the rotor on the housings. the lobe to lobe clearance was 0.15 to 0.20. these are for pumping fluids around dairy factorys etc.

Makes a hell of a mess of the housings when the clearances aren't right and the lobe pick up on the body, or when the fitter at the plant drops his spanner and it ends up going through the new one you just built :(

-->Just been reading back through the thread, although the lobes we made had splines, the helical gears in the back which timed and drove them were often mounted using the taper lock method, depended on the brand of pump as the the method.

Hey champ, was wondering if you would pop in here.

Thanks for the insight to the pumps, I forgot you used to make those things. I suppose that with pumping fluid there is going to be less leakage than air (which is fluid also i guess)

I might need to hit you up about some gear info, don't know whats the best option for the drive gears.

[Sketchy_Racer]

It's a catch 22 situation - he can't run mild boost, he's got to push the envelope to try and be competitive. This can lead as I found to complication and it's partner in crime - weight...
With a 100, the target is already 300bhp/liter - on petrol. And the better FXR's and 2 strokes are lighter.

Some years back I thought about doing one but when alky got dropped as an allowable fuel for the "open" 100cc fourstrokes I said no, not feasible. Alky worked on several levels - the main one was internal cooling which just made things so much easier.

The Loncin is probably going to melt valves anyway.....

Nooo, I can't imagine the mighty Chinese motor shitting itself with 1Bar boost stuffed down it.... (I'm taking bets as to which part fails first)

Eitherway, if it does melt a head a new one with valves and cam etc is $60 :bleh:

Now back to the idea of intercooling and the problems with a draw through setup. I started to have a hunt around for fuel injection kits and found what looks pretty good

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_EFI_Turbo_PNP_kit.html

It's not to bad priced, lets me tune it how I like and suited to boost applications, also gives me ignition control which is cool, I was looking at using an Ignitech but may try this instead. What ya think?

Also thinking about the picture of the Peugeot scooter intercooler, the reason I think the intercooler can lack a bit of flow is because the plenum is going to be mounted after the intercooler naturally but the motor is drawing from the plenum in gulps 1 time every 2 rotations of the crank yet the supercharge is supplying boost continuously so allowing time to fill the plenum again. Maybe a bogus idea but I think EFI will be the best bet in the long run, also makes it possible to have a blowoff valve to compensate for excess boost (not to mention I'll have a bucket that goes PSSH)

[speights_bud]

Hey champ, was wondering if you would pop in here.

Thanks for the insight to the pumps, I forgot you used to make those things. I suppose that with pumping fluid there is going to be less leakage than air (which is fluid also i guess)

I might need to hit you up about some gear info, don't know whats the best option for the drive gears.
yea given fluid is denser than air I'd expect it to have more of a sealing effect, most of the pumps moved around milk solids, yoghurt, mince etc. but they were all pretty much the same tolerancing regardless of the application.

I just had a look at your exploded model, the pumps we made were laid out a bit different, they had the drive shafts out the back of your main housing, so on the 'font' you just have a plain flat plate. this made re-building easier to dress if it gets damaged, as you just skim the plate, mill the body pocket claning up the bottom face and make the lobes to the new housing depth.

Then you had to shim out the lobes against the bearings behind the body as they never replaced the shafts. i'll see if i can find a picture somewhere.

some used straight cut gears at the back to drive which would be cheaper for you to work with, or even find from a suitable gearbox. but most used Helical gears. I would assume that you have a set centre distance between the shafts as you have already made the lobes. the gears can be fudged to suit, quick formula, to see what might be close:

OD Gear:
(Number of teeth + 2) Divided by the MOD.

MOD (Modular) ->Metric
DP (Diametral Pitch) ->Imperial.

Start with metric and see where you get.

You'd want it fairly smooth running, so more teeth the better. then you need to look into tooth clearances etc, theres probably a simulator/calculator on the net that'll do all this for you in a second. It's a bit late and im workin off the top of me head :weird:

bearings were two taper roller bearings per shaft, locked up by a ring nut behing the gears on the back of each shaft.

This'll make no sense to me when i read it tomorrow so i'll correct it then.

Hers a web page which should allow you to do all your calc's: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gears.html

You could either 4th axis 3d the gears you want or turn your blanks and send them to we-can, should be about 2hours work to setup and hob blanks max.

[speights_bud]

Find a wrecked Suzuki UZ125, bugger i sold the one i wrecked they are fuel injected and i figured i'd never get around to using it on a bucket so sold the lot! damn.

[Sketchy_Racer]

yea given fluid is denser than air I'd expect it to have more of a sealing effect, most of the pumps moved around milk solids, yoghurt, mince etc. but they were all pretty much the same tolerancing regardless of the application.

I just had a look at your exploded model, the pumps we made were laid out a bit different, they had the drive shafts out the back of your main housing, so on the 'font' you just have a plain flat plate. this made re-building easier to dress if it gets damaged, as you just skim the plate, mill the body pocket claning up the bottom face and make the lobes to the new housing depth.

Then you had to shim out the lobes against the bearings behind the body as they never replaced the shafts. i'll see if i can find a picture somewhere.

some used straight cut gears at the back to drive which would be cheaper for you to work with, or even find from a suitable gearbox. but most used Helical gears. I would assume that you have a set centre distance between the shafts as you have already made the lobes. the gears can be fudged to suit, quick formula, to see what might be close:

OD Gear:
(Number of teeth + 2) Divided by the MOD.

MOD (Modular) ->Metric
DP (Diametral Pitch) ->Imperial.

Start with metric and see where you get.

You'd want it fairly smooth running, so more teeth the better. then you need to look into tooth clearances etc, theres probably a simulator/calculator on the net that'll do all this for you in a second. It's a bit late and im workin off the top of me head :weird:

bearings were two taper roller bearings per shaft, locked up by a ring nut behing the gears on the back of each shaft.

This'll make no sense to me when i read it tomorrow so i'll correct it then.

Hers a web page which should allow you to do all your calc's: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gears.html

You could either 4th axis 3d the gears you want or turn your blanks and send them to we-can, should be about 2hours work to setup and hob blanks max.

Yeah i've had a look on the google machine at some of the roots style fluid pumps and I know what you mean with the shaft layout, like you say great for rebuilds however requires a larger pump as the shafts have to be supported. My design is stolen off a AMR300 supercharger which is for a small car but I will still use shims to set the end float and clearance for each rotor.

Yeah for the gears I am looking at between 30 - 40 tooth, the pitch dia is 38mm.

The only bugger is that we only have a 1.5MOD cutter at work which is only any good for a 20-25 tooth gear. So means some 3d milling might come into play.

I was thinking just bronze for the gears but worry that they will wear quickly and allow the lobes to touch? What ya recon.


Find a wrecked Suzuki UZ125, bugger i sold the one i wrecked they are fuel injected and i figured i'd never get around to using it on a bucket so sold the lot! damn.

Would have been good but not to much of a loss as I would still need to buy some sort of kit to allow me to tune it and the injector would probably have been to small for the supercharged motor. So all good but cheers for the thought man.

[carburator]

your probably could get away with a ali nickel bronze for the gears ive used it for high load low rev's
applications and its done well..

my littlefeild blower ended up with a set as the steel ones cracked for some reason that i never figured out
nor really was that interested in finding out..

interesting that the fuild pumps have angular bearings in them? we only ran straight race bearings in the blower
shim for end float of the lobes else you have a huge drag ( powerloss ) assoicatied with preload on a angular bearing

Im kind of interested in everyone getting on the bandwagon about intercooling first off i really can't see you being
able to run high PSI on that chink motor even if you decompress it..

admittly ive build more low compression high boost motors than high compression low boost ones but that later
perform very well and to some degree are more stable.

one thing we did play with rather late in the forced induction game is water to air intercoolers
however our water tank was enathol with dry ice and I can tell you from personal experice it works
that well it gives wicked cold burns! ( also we used it to shrink bearings into housings )

[speights_bud]

your probably could get away with a ali nickel bronze for the gears ive used it for high load low rev's
applications and its done well..

my littlefeild blower ended up with a set as the steel ones cracked for some reason that i never figured out
nor really was that interested in finding out..

interesting that the fuild pumps have angular bearings in them? we only ran straight race bearings in the blower
shim for end float of the lobes else you have a huge drag ( powerloss ) assoicatied with preload on a angular bearing


Yep, once a bit of load came on the bearings the fluid pumps put up a bit of resistance, so def worth looking at a different bearing setup, the pumps were driven off big electric motors so a little drag didn't worry them too much. have you looked into using telfon sleeves? They are mich lighter than a conventional bearing & probably similar in price or cheaper. we used them in our glue pumps, they run pretty hot pumping melted hot glue at the packaging factories and lasted ages when running with a hardened EN36a shaft.

I'd agree that the Ali Bronze should make a good set of gears. although its harder its slightly more prone to picking up than the lead bronze, depending on if they will be lubricated the lead bronze might be worth looking at, its also cheaper. The fluid pumps use hardened EN39b, mostly cost and strength as the loading/torque is quite high. are they being lubricated at all when running? you'll find in most reduction gearboxes the large worm wheel is usually a big piece of bronze, and it's often the hard steel worm that'll wear just as badly.

[carburator]

Yep, once a bit of load came on the bearings the fluid pumps put up a bit of resistance, so def worth looking at a different bearing setup, the pumps were driven off big electric motors so a little drag didn't worry them too much. have you looked into using telfon sleeves? They are mich lighter than a conventional bearing & probably similar in price or cheaper. we used them in our glue pumps, they run pretty hot pumping melted hot glue at the packaging factories and lasted ages when running with a hardened EN36a shaft.

I'd agree that the Ali Bronze should make a good set of gears. although its harder its slightly more prone to picking up than the lead bronze, depending on if they will be lubricated the lead bronze might be worth looking at, its also cheaper. The fluid pumps use hardened EN39b, mostly cost and strength as the loading/torque is quite high. are they being lubricated at all when running? you'll find in most reduction gearboxes the large worm wheel is usually a big piece of bronze, and it's often the hard steel worm that'll wear just as badly.

what he needs to do is hollow out the front cover, add a breather and a fill point and stick the timing gears in there
and hey presto old school GMC blower

Oh it was menathol and dryice for shrinking bearings and used as a water to air cooler combo
( must not kiwibike when tired.. )

[Grumph]

On the Martin blowers one end of the case had the bearings on the inside of the end plate - normal journal ballraces, running sealed.
The other - drive - end had seals and bearings outside in the gear cavity. Endfloat set by shimming at the drive end.

I can't believe you didn't design it around an available gear pair.....you're a glutton for punishment mate..Yeah, straight cut bronze will last longer than the motor...

That injection setup looks feasible.

Have you looked at Irvings Automobile Engine Tuning ? The old bugger knew a few things and there's quite a bit in there about blowing singles.

[Paul in NZ]

Um - just a left field question but....

Could you use another cylinder as the compressor ie - a split single type arrangement? Use a Honda 200 twin and use one side to force feed the other type deal?

[ducatilover]

Um - just a left field question but....

Could you use another cylinder as the compressor ie - a split single type arrangement? Use a Honda 200 twin and use one side to force feed the other type deal?
Would depend on the crank I suppose, if the pulse is at the right time, it can work rather well.
I'm looking in to electric turbo/supercharging systems, but finding relevant info on ones that work is not so easy, most of the info out there is from retards whom have put those stupid computer fan esque/weed blowers on their intakes :facepalm:

[bogan]

CM200 would it be? Think the pistons are in-phase, you'd have to run some sort of accumulator tank anyway, possibly tune the length of it for good results.
Electric blowers are shit, you're essentially replacing a belt with a motor, generator, and circuitry.

[Paul in NZ]

Would depend on the crank I suppose, if the pulse is at the right time, it can work rather well.
I'm looking in to electric turbo/supercharging systems, but finding relevant info on ones that work is not so easy, most of the info out there is from retards whom have put those stupid computer fan esque/weed blowers on their intakes :facepalm:

Why not just use a compressed air tank?

[speights_bud]

Have you looked into using telfon sleeves? They are mich lighter than a conventional bearing & probably similar in price or cheaper. we used them in our glue pumps, they run pretty hot pumping melted hot glue at the packaging factories and lasted ages when running with a hardened EN36a shaft.


These are what i meant:

http://www.asbbearings.com/steel_backed_bearings.html

[ducatilover]

Why not just use a compressed air tank?
I want a million PSI all the time, spoke snapping power. ;)

[carburator]

Why not just use a compressed air tank?

why not make the bike frame a conceded NOS tank and pump in giggle gas..
at the overtaking moment..

[Sketchy_Racer]

On the Martin blowers one end of the case had the bearings on the inside of the end plate - normal journal ballraces, running sealed.
The other - drive - end had seals and bearings outside in the gear cavity. Endfloat set by shimming at the drive end.

I can't believe you didn't design it around an available gear pair.....you're a glutton for punishment mate..Yeah, straight cut bronze will last longer than the motor...

That injection setup looks feasible.

Have you looked at Irvings Automobile Engine Tuning ? The old bugger knew a few things and there's quite a bit in there about blowing singles.

My design is just using deep groove bearings, with the shafts floating so as they heat up they don't bind up the bearings.

I am happy to make the gear set, this project is all about learning some new stuff and I have never done gear cutting before, well, I have setup and ran a program before on the mill but never designed and manufactured the gear set myself.

I am getting excited about the fuel injection system, I have done some google searching and they seem to have a good review so may bite the bullet and give it a shot.

No havnt read the book, will add to the list of ones to read along with the one Yowling suggested earlier.


These are what i meant:

http://www.asbbearings.com/steel_backed_bearings.html

Ah yeah I know the stuff, got it at work, you think it would be up for 10K plus RPM?

[bogan]

Won't floating shafts mean the rotor ends will contact the housing? Twin angular contact with a shim between em at one end to fix it, and a deep groove at the other would keep it all in position.

And won't a given gear modulus give a range of discrete pitch circles? Seems that wouldn't be so good for setting rotor clearances.

[pete376403]

Won't floating shafts mean the rotor ends will contact the housing? Twin angular contact with a shim between em at one end to fix it, and a deep groove at the other would keep it all in position.

And won't a given gear modulus give a range of discrete pitch circles? Seems that wouldn't be so good for setting rotor clearances.

Start with the drive gears and a known shaft spacing then make the rotor clearances to suit?

[speights_bud]

Ah yeah I know the stuff, got it at work, you think it would be up for 10K plus RPM? Prolly not eh, though if run with lubricant on a non contact basis why not? similar principal to white metal bearings?

Also make your first set of gears from ally and work with the two of them on your centers to get the desired tooth span measurement across the pitch line that works and stops the rotors from binding/colliding on backlash.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Prolly not eh, though if run with lubricant on a non contact basis why not? similar principal to white metal bearings?

Also make your first set of gears from ally and work with the two of them on your centers to get the desired tooth span measurement across the pitch line that works and stops the rotors from binding/colliding on backlash.

Yeah I decided to stick with my plan of running sealed deep groove ball bearings. Cheap as chips $9.00 each and the rating for them is 20k RPM which is more than I need and the load ratings exceed anything I plan on putting through them.

Finished making the shafts and gear blanks today, just have to turn the nuts to retain the gears. The gears and shaft have a JT3 taper (same as inside a Jacob's drill chuck) as it was close to my shaft size and the 3 degree taper on them does a good job.

I have also made a mandrel for cutting the gears so I will be able to take them off check for fit and if to tight take a second cut (just using the tool at original position to gain orientation back)

Need to hunt down a 1 MOD cutter otherwise I'll just have to drop the tooth count to 24 as the only cutter I have at the moment is a 1.5 MOD

Really happy with the fits on the shafts, a nice transition fit to make sure the is no binding under heat.

I have also upgraded the size of studs for the head to take care of the extra pressure, originals were M6 so have now made them M8 with recoils inserted into the cases for extra strength there.

The inner Rotor kit turned up today, pretty impressed for $50 I would recommend these to anyone with a big old heavy flywheel, can't believe I never through about using them on the old two strokes.

So the motor lost a kilo by changing the flywheel and also the small flywheel gives me heaps of space behind it to mount the pulley drive for the charger. It's really close to the main bearing also which is great as it will support it well.

I'm still waiting for the Piston a Sleeve to arrive so I can measure up my comp ratio but while i've got it apart I am going to slot the cam sprocket so I can clock that in (although will be limited with the single cam) and also take a lot of material out of the exhaust port. It has a good sized valve but the port is terrible. I was going to look at going up in valve size but once reduced to 100cc I will have no space against the bore so it will have to live with what it has got. I'm not worried about the valve train as I only plan to run this to a peak of 12k and they seem the handle the stock 13.5K rev limiter well in the pitbikes (used to have one)

Oh also had a play round last night adding some pockets and ribs into the solid model for the charger assy, I have now got it down to 1.5kg which is awesome! I was hoping for 2 as the AMR300 is 2.8

Material turned up for the body of the charged assembly so I will start that tomorrow if work is quiet.

again some more pictures, nothing exciting though sorry.

The last picture is my attempt at some ally welding, never done it before and plan on welding up a plenum and possibly a chopped up intercooler so though I better learn how.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

266838266839266840266841266842266843

[Sketchy_Racer]

Here is a picture of the gear assembly, ignore the fact that it is missing all the bearings and cover plates, this was just to check the gear mesh with a 24 tooth gear looks like it will work ok and I don't care how noisy the gears are.

266846

[Sketchy_Racer]

Won't floating shafts mean the rotor ends will contact the housing? Twin angular contact with a shim between em at one end to fix it, and a deep groove at the other would keep it all in position.

And won't a given gear modulus give a range of discrete pitch circles? Seems that wouldn't be so good for setting rotor clearances.

To answer, the way the bearings are captured means that they are fixed and the beauty of deep groove ball bearings is that they are desinged to take a small amount of axial thrust. I have stolen the concept of my bearing layout from the gearbox I rebuilt in my old Nissan 4x4. It used the same concept with captured bearings with shims to control the back lash in the gear set.

Not quite sure what you mean by the second question, if you mean the during the meshing of the two gears as they roatate there might be a velocity variation between the two shafts? I don't think so as that is the design of the involute spur gear, but lets say there is, even so the two shaft are still going to be fixed in position to each other maintaining rotor clearances.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[jonbuoy]

Most interesting thread on KB in, well - ever?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Most interesting thread on KB in, well - ever?

Haha thanks I guess.

Tomorrow I will hopefully get to make the body, I will try catch some video of the programming, setup and machining processes of the manufacturing of that part

[speights_bud]

The inner Rotor kit turned up today, pretty impressed for $50 I would recommend these to anyone with a big old heavy flywheel, can't believe I never through about using them on the old two strokes.

So the motor lost a kilo by changing the flywheel and also the small flywheel gives me heaps of space behind it to mount the pulley drive for the charger. It's really close to the main bearing also which is great as it will support it well.

And you go tell everyone about the secret parts i've put in my Loncin Engine.... damn you... i saved over 1200g's of rotating mass!

[bogan]

To answer, the way the bearings are captured means that they are fixed and the beauty of deep groove ball bearings is that they are desinged to take a small amount of axial thrust. I have stolen the concept of my bearing layout from the gearbox I rebuilt in my old Nissan 4x4. It used the same concept with captured bearings with shims to control the back lash in the gear set.

Not quite sure what you mean by the second question, if you mean the during the meshing of the two gears as they roatate there might be a velocity variation between the two shafts? I don't think so as that is the design of the involute spur gear, but lets say there is, even so the two shaft are still going to be fixed in position to each other maintaining rotor clearances.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

Yeh I've actually got a similar setup for a spindle at the moment, just put a .006in shim between two deep groove bearings and it reduces the lash to SFA, however I'm pretty sure it is giving higher friction than angular contact would in the same setup; pressure angles and whatnot I guess.

I haven't done much with gears, but it was my understanding that a given number of teeth of certain modulus will have only one optimum pitch circle diameter. Or can you just cut deeper/shallower as required?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeh I've actually got a similar setup for a spindle at the moment, just put a .006in shim between two deep groove bearings and it reduces the lash to SFA, however I'm pretty sure it is giving higher friction than angular contact would in the same setup; pressure angles and whatnot I guess.

I haven't done much with gears, but it was my understanding that a given number of teeth of certain modulus will have only one optimum pitch circle diameter. Or can you just cut deeper/shallower as required?

Yeah I guess if you wanted to get really serious then angular contact would be the way, however in this case I think she'll be sweet mane ;)

My gear understanding is also very basic, and yes as far as I know there is a recommendation for the tooth count and module relative to the Pitch circle but the addendum and dedenddum is fixed to your module and your module selection is just your pitch circle / tooth count. Strictly speaking I should need a 1.6 module but 1.5 is close enough

I think the 24 tooth gear will work , got some bronze for it and the blanks turned up so will just make a set and see how we go.

[Sketchy_Racer]

And you go tell everyone about the secret parts i've put in my Loncin Engine.... damn you... i saved over 1200g's of rotating mass!

Haha sorry bro. You should make a mission and come down for a bucket meet here some, once I get the superbucket running of course so you can take it for a thrash

[speights_bud]

Haha sorry bro. You should make a mission and come down for a bucket meet here some, once I get the superbucket running of course so you can take it for a thrash

The Hawkes bay guys have started getting together and organizing a trip down, trying to get a few things done on mine this week, maybe on the dyno if i get a chance just to see where its at. but definitely gotta come down and try your track out

[TZ350]

Most interesting thread on KB in, well - ever?

A handbuilt supercharged 100, yes thats very interesting, its become the first thread I read each day.

[Paul in NZ]

Are you SURE you want to go forced induction?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/9422892/Pictures-of-the-day-24-July-2012.html

[Grumph]

DON"T use a welded alloy plenum....been there cracked that repeatedly. Did ours in 2mm alloy initially but it wouldn't stand the pulsations and cracked. The replacement in 16G mild steel was a quickie but held up well. Had we continued we were looking at moulding one in carbon fiber as everyone we spoke to said it had no natural resonant frequency and they swore it wouldn't split....
Being a single yours will pulse worse than our 180deg twin...
I'd think even if you use large dia tube as the plenum body it will still crack the ends and seams.

Sorry, it ain't easy....

[Moooools]

Had we continued we were looking at moulding one in carbon fiber as everyone we spoke to said it had no natural resonant frequency and they swore it wouldn't split....

Sorry, it ain't easy....

Ha. Made me laugh.

Don't use composites. It will pulse just like any other material. Except it will be shitty to make. And you will be wet laminating at room temperature. Which will make it want to fall apart under any sort of vibration. Also the material is not isotropic which makes it very hard to apply any sort of maths to it. Just do it in ally but give it a safety factor of like 10.

[bogan]

Yeah I guess if you wanted to get really serious then angular contact would be the way, however in this case I think she'll be sweet mane ;)

My gear understanding is also very basic, and yes as far as I know there is a recommendation for the tooth count and module relative to the Pitch circle but the addendum and dedenddum is fixed to your module and your module selection is just your pitch circle / tooth count. Strictly speaking I should need a 1.6 module but 1.5 is close enough

I think the 24 tooth gear will work , got some bronze for it and the blanks turned up so will just make a set and see how we go.

I think the most common deep groove have angular contact in the same size anyway, so an easy upgrade later if required. Start cheap, learn as much as possible, then upgrade where required, always a good plan!

[andrew a]

Hi Glen you mention PIT BIKE thats not legit for a bucket motor. Sorry

[Grumph]

Ha. Made me laugh.

Don't use composites. It will pulse just like any other material. Except it will be shitty to make. And you will be wet laminating at room temperature. Which will make it want to fall apart under any sort of vibration. Also the material is not isotropic which makes it very hard to apply any sort of maths to it. Just do it in ally but give it a safety factor of like 10.

Fair enough comment if you've got the composite experience...We were told that a layer of Kevlar would help.

2mm wall alloy, rolled corners, reinforcing ribs, beautifully TIG welded, presure tested to 45 psi....tell me that wasn't overkill.
On the other hand a quickly folded up 16G mild steel box, gas welded, held together...
By the time the alloy one had been fixed a couple of times and reinforced, it weighed pretty much what the steel one did but kept cracking.

[speights_bud]

I haven't done much with gears, but it was my understanding that a given number of teeth of certain modulus will have only one optimum pitch circle diameter. Or can you just cut deeper/shallower as required?


Yes gears do have an optimum pitch circle diameter, which allows the gear to run most efficiently. however the specified standard diameter can't always be used when setting up multiple gears fixed on one shaft as per the pic of the gear cluster i made below. The Diameters can be fudged to a certain extent, but it changes the shape of the tooth and as you'd expect larger diameter makes the tooth wall flatter as it rises to the point.

For those who may be interested....

I Made 6 of these gear clusters, all in manual machines & kept this one because the guy turning it in the CNC lathe balls-ed up the bore so used it as a setup piece. which is kinda good when you are fudging diameters for fixed centre gears.
You might be able to see the tooth width on the 3rd from top gear on the cluster has narrower teeth than the mating gear. This is because if we cut the mating gear to the standard depth it would become too weak. so seeing how the diameters are fixed and there is a specific ratio required, there was some fudging done to make everything fit properly.

It is only using certain gear cutting methods you can do this though. I think Glen is using the 'standard form' method for cutting his gears, which as far as i know (never done too much of this type) won't generate the desired tooth shape if the diameter is changed from standard, it would only result in the teeth being crammed into each other or spread further apart.
This method done in a manual mill. video bit boring at first, (skip ahead to milling) but quite in depth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHTXaU7GZC0


If the teeth are Rack generated, as i did for the bottom 2 of the gears on the cluster. Using a designated gear hobbing machine the tooth shape is formed via a series of gears & ratios etc. you setup the gearboxes from some charts, some magic happens and you get the tooth shape you wanted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbing
A poor video making a helical gear using a manual style hobbing machine and a poor cutting method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dACKfxJ8qr4

The other method i've used is shaping, good for cutting gears where you have a limited amount of space, just like the top two gears on the cluster in the pic. the cutter rotates slowly in time with the gear to form the teeth, its another set the machine up according to the charts fiddle a bit more then magic happens and you have the gear.
Shaping and then hobbing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZgsV0AZJJ0&feature=related

[Moooools]

Fair enough comment if you've got the composite experience...We were told that a layer of Kevlar would help.

2mm wall alloy, rolled corners, reinforcing ribs, beautifully TIG welded, presure tested to 45 psi....tell me that wasn't overkill.
On the other hand a quickly folded up 16G mild steel box, gas welded, held together...
By the time the alloy one had been fixed a couple of times and reinforced, it weighed pretty much what the steel one did but kept cracking.

I'm too young to know what thickness 16 gauge steel is. However the internet says about 1.5mm. (mmmm metric)
That works. For some reason I had a picture of thick plate in my head, don't quite know why.

As for composites experience, I am no real expert, but I do work alongside some guys ( who build a carbon monocoque chassis for a car each year (I work on power train; motorcycle engine however). I get to duck in and out of their lair and quite a bit of useful info gets dispersed. Also watching a guy make a composite plenum this year has highlighted how much is sucks. Even for a normally aspirated engine. His first attempt (last year) would pulse heaps while running.

For any Facebook users interested: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=434417069911671&set=a.361901053829940.82184.155875141099200&type=3&theater

Oh and like that page. Good for our sponsors and getting one over other universities.

[Sketchy_Racer]

DON"T use a welded alloy plenum....been there cracked that repeatedly. Did ours in 2mm alloy initially but it wouldn't stand the pulsations and cracked. The replacement in 16G mild steel was a quickie but held up well. Had we continued we were looking at moulding one in carbon fiber as everyone we spoke to said it had no natural resonant frequency and they swore it wouldn't split....
Being a single yours will pulse worse than our 180deg twin...
I'd think even if you use large dia tube as the plenum body it will still crack the ends and seams.

Sorry, it ain't easy....

I had wondered about the pulses fatiguing the alluminum, I guess it has been proven right here. I will have to make it out of stainless steel though, It's got to look the part ;)




Yes gears do have an optimum pitch circle diameter, which allows the gear to run most efficiently. however the specified standard diameter can't always be used when setting up multiple gears fixed on one shaft as per the pic of the gear cluster i made below. The Diameters can be fudged to a certain extent, but it changes the shape of the tooth and as you'd expect larger diameter makes the tooth wall flatter as it rises to the point.



Thanks for that champ, it's cool learning new shit!


I'm too young to know what thickness 16 gauge steel is. However the internet says about 1.5mm. (mmmm metric)
That works. For some reason I had a picture of thick plate in my head, don't quite know why.

As for composites experience, I am no real expert, but I do work alongside some guys ( who build a carbon monocoque chassis for a car each year (I work on power train; motorcycle engine however). I get to duck in and out of their lair and quite a bit of useful info gets dispersed. Also watching a guy make a composite plenum this year has highlighted how much is sucks. Even for a normally aspirated engine. His first attempt (last year) would pulse heaps while running.

For any Facebook users interested: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=434417069911671&set=a.361901053829940.82184.155875141099200&type=3&theater

Oh and like that page. Good for our sponsors and getting one over other universities.

Dude, that project looks awesome mate, I would have loved to do something like that. The design of the V twin is so cool. What is the intake air restriction for the 500cc motors?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Okay so made quite a bit of progress today.

Got the body finished off and also ordered the fuel injection and ignition kit. I though bugger it, it's worth a shot and having youtubed it and seen bike running with it they all seem to run great and its had great reviews (can you see the self reassuring about my $600 spend....)

It comes with a O2 sensor which is awesome as I can do the inital engine setup via that without having the spend hours at the dyno.

Link here for those who may have missed it earlier

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_EFI_Turbo_PNP_kit.html

I was planning on going with an ignitech but it seems the layout of this software is the same so hopefully it is as good.

Anyway, again here are some pictures.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

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[fi5hy]

Your a very sick little boy Glen. I like it

[Moooools]

Dude, that project looks awesome mate, I would have loved to do something like that. The design of the V twin is so cool. What is the intake air restriction for the 500cc motors?

It is damn awesome to be a part of. Also a pretty big time commitment on top of uni.

The V Twin is about the coolest thing ever, but still needs some sorting before it is ready for use in a car. Currently we run a similar set up with a 450cc single cylinder. Other engines have also included a supercharged r6.

All air must flow through a 20mm restrictor post throttle. It makes for some interesting tuning and intake design.




People on the team are highly skeptical about supercharging a single, although the old crankcases were set up for it. It will be very interesting to see how your engine goes.

Also is there any reason you made two separate blanks for gear cutting; rather than parting them off post cutting? Seems like more time involved in set up on the cutter.

[carburator]

As Grump has put it, Ali mainfolds are a pain, mine are all stainless ( 304 )

there are certainly some tricks to making them hang together but also
careful planning yelds good results.

lots of lube and a 20 tonne press and the right dies you can do some interesting
transitions and flare's 266876

[worm13]

Fair enough comment if you've got the composite experience...We were told that a layer of Kevlar would help.

2mm wall alloy, rolled corners, reinforcing ribs, beautifully TIG welded, presure tested to 45 psi....tell me that wasn't overkill.
On the other hand a quickly folded up 16G mild steel box, gas welded, held together...
By the time the alloy one had been fixed a couple of times and reinforced, it weighed pretty much what the steel one did but kept cracking.

Joys of using a epoxy resin! the room temp issue is what effects the epoxy from managing its optuim curing point, did a repair on a corvette carbon fibre bonnet, room temp was on the lower end of temp specs came in the next day epoxy had set but as soon as sand paper touched it you knew it was fucked! rule of thumb with carbon fibre to alloy is 1mm of carbon fibre is the same as 3mm alloy so on the base of what you said with the 2mm alloy do that in carbon and surely you would be more then safe and thats with a standard hand lay as well, if you can vac it bonus! even better if you can injection mould it!

[Sketchy_Racer]

It is damn awesome to be a part of. Also a pretty big time commitment on top of uni.

The V Twin is about the coolest thing ever, but still needs some sorting before it is ready for use in a car. Currently we run a similar set up with a 450cc single cylinder. Other engines have also included a supercharged r6.

All air must flow through a 20mm restrictor post throttle. It makes for some interesting tuning and intake design.




People on the team are highly skeptical about supercharging a single, although the old crankcases were set up for it. It will be very interesting to see how your engine goes.

Also is there any reason you made two separate blanks for gear cutting; rather than parting them off post cutting? Seems like more time involved in set up on the cutter.


20mm isn't exactly a lot of space! What sort of HP limitation is that going to give you guys? What are you studying at uni?


Interested to hear why the skepticism on the supercharged single? My worries are less about the fact that it is a single and more about the fact that it is only 100cc and if I can afford the drive losses of the supercharger. However if you look back at one of the earlier pages there is a video of a chap with a supercharged 50cc running on a dyno, his seems to run really really well!

Yes gears have been done this way as I will have to do multiple cuts to get the correct fit I am after, remembering I can afford no backlash so I will machine them "tight" then bring the sizes down slowly until desired fit. The beauty of a CNC is that I put it in a push the button, no pissing around with winding a rotary table handle.
In theory I could do it all by calc, but experience tells me that in theses situation, fitting the parts is much better than aiming for a measurement.







As Grump has put it, Ali mainfolds are a pain, mine are all stainless ( 304 )

there are certainly some tricks to making them hang together but also
careful planning yelds good results.

lots of lube and a 20 tonne press and the right dies you can do some interesting
transitions and flare's 266876

Sweet glad to hear someone has done them with success out of SS. I will wait until I get the EFI kit and supercharger mounted before I bother with the plenum design.

[Grumph]

Why are the team sceptical about blowing a single ? You obviously haven't yet read the two books recommended to you on this thread...

Historiclly the biggest problem is throttling the intake satisfactorily. Given that most if not all attempts were suck - through, there was always a lag between opening the throttle and getting a response.Same shutting off too....Irving reports that a very long/large volume inlet tract with a secondary throttle close to the port can be made to work but some experimenting with lengths and volumes will be required.
With what's available now in injection, blow through becomes feasible which means the throttle point is close to the port. It also means that some form of pressure relief is needed when the throttle is closed....easy enough.
IMO you're going to need a regulated blowoff valve to keep plenum pressure down to running pressure at max when the throttle is snapped shut - and a safety blowoff valve for backfires. Irvings book has a drawing of a simple safety blowoff valve which is what I copied - dead easy. Just make it visible as trying to start a bike with the valve open unknowingly is one more frustration....

[Moooools]

20mm isn't exactly a lot of space! What sort of HP limitation is that going to give you guys? What are you studying at uni?


Interested to hear why the skepticism on the supercharged single? My worries are less about the fact that it is a single and more about the fact that it is only 100cc and if I can afford the drive losses of the supercharger. However if you look back at one of the earlier pages there is a video of a chap with a supercharged 50cc running on a dyno, his seems to run really really well!

Yes gears have been done this way as I will have to do multiple cuts to get the correct fit I am after, remembering I can afford no backlash so I will machine them "tight" then bring the sizes down slowly until desired fit. The beauty of a CNC is that I put it in a push the button, no pissing around with winding a rotary table handle.
In theory I could do it all by calc, but experience tells me that in theses situation, fitting the parts is much better than aiming for a measurement.


We get 42kw (apparently) out of the 450cc single. But the current map isn't the best it could be. I have only talked briefly to people who were around when the crank cases were set up for a blower, but they were jabbering on about having too much dead time between power strokes.

I am studying engineering.


You obviously haven't yet read the two books recommended to you on this thread...

Supercharging is not something I want to actively peruse. It was more of a passing comment. We have enough other stuff to deal with and enough custom in the car as it stands. Plus team budget is limited and so on.

[Grumph]

We get 42kw (apparently) out of the 450cc single. But the current map isn't the best it could be. I have only talked briefly to people who were around when the crank cases were set up for a blower, but they were jabbering on about having too much dead time between power strokes.

Supercharging is not something I want to actively peruse. It was more of a passing comment. We have enough other stuff to deal with and enough custom in the car as it stands. Plus team budget is limited and so on.

The comment about not having read the books was aimed at Sketchy......

I admire the projects you guys get to play with now but when I look at some of the parameters you have to work inside, I reckon they're too artificial. Maybe it's just to get you into thinking outside the square, I don't know.
In my day.....too long ago now....you just bought an old race bike and learned as you went along, and if you kept at it you could make the spares you needed and any trick bits to develop it further.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Why are the team sceptical about blowing a single ? You obviously haven't yet read the two books recommended to you on this thread...

Historiclly the biggest problem is throttling the intake satisfactorily. Given that most if not all attempts were suck - through, there was always a lag between opening the throttle and getting a response.Same shutting off too....Irving reports that a very long/large volume inlet tract with a secondary throttle close to the port can be made to work but some experimenting with lengths and volumes will be required.
With what's available now in injection, blow through becomes feasible which means the throttle point is close to the port. It also means that some form of pressure relief is needed when the throttle is closed....easy enough.
IMO you're going to need a regulated blowoff valve to keep plenum pressure down to running pressure at max when the throttle is snapped shut - and a safety blowoff valve for backfires. Irvings book has a drawing of a simple safety blowoff valve which is what I copied - dead easy. Just make it visible as trying to start a bike with the valve open unknowingly is one more frustration....

Yeah I am hoping that the fuel injection system is going to make the fueling control much better, I am looking forward to the kit turn up as I can't really design the rest of the intake system until that arrives. I know I am going to need a blow off valve but though I wouldn't need a safety dump valve with the fuel injection, as even if the intake had a back fire there would not be enough fuel in the air to create conditions for a ignition, thoughts?

I am planning on going to the library this weekend to have a look at those two books, hopefully they are returned on time.


We get 42kw (apparently) out of the 450cc single. But the current map isn't the best it could be. I have only talked briefly to people who were around when the crank cases were set up for a blower, but they were jabbering on about having too much dead time between power strokes.

I am studying engineering.

Supercharging is not something I want to actively peruse. It was more of a passing comment. We have enough other stuff to deal with and enough custom in the car as it stands. Plus team budget is limited and so on.

Yeah I guess that would be right in regards to dead time, but I suppose that is where having the right sized supercharger for the motor is important. Also plenum volume will be important, the bigger the beter is guess for cylinder filling but if it is to big i may experience lag from low rpm. However part of the beauty of supercharging is that it will be making boost even with the throttle shut, it will just be dumping it to atmosphere instead of the motor.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[Sketchy_Racer]

Got most of the charger finished today, made the bearing plate for the drive side and also the gear cover. Cocked up the gear cover but luckily it wont be seen and wont affect the operation of the charger.

When setting up a datum edge in the mill, I use a 10mm diameter touch probe which is awesome as long as you remember to include the 5mm radius of what ever you zero an edge at, otherwise it will machine everything with a bloody 5mm offset. Of course only noticed it after the first cut. Never rush jobs during lunch breaks haha.

Got the shafts pressed into the rotors and will finish the rotors to length tomorrow as well as turn the gear nut threads.

Then it's time to mill some gears, going to write the program for that tonight, easier to do by hand than use the CAM software.

Also the oil cooler kit turned up so I can look at getting that mounted over the weekend, and I will look at getting a blowoff valve and intercooler to hack up tomorrow. Planning on going to pick a part and stealing some suitable parts from there.

266901266902266903266904266905266906

[Moooools]

The comment about not having read the books was aimed at Sketchy......

I admire the projects you guys get to play with now but when I look at some of the parameters you have to work inside, I reckon they're too artificial. Maybe it's just to get you into thinking outside the square, I don't know.
In my day.....too long ago now....you just bought an old race bike and learned as you went along, and if you kept at it you could make the spares you needed and any trick bits to develop it further.


It seems artificial because it is artificial. You are given an artificial brief to design a car for. Some of the rules are designed around safety, like the 20mm restriction to keeps speeds low. Some are to make the engineering less about money and more about design.

It isn't motorsport really, it is an engineering challenge.

[crazy man]

very nice job Sketchy

[bogan]

Yeah I guess that would be right in regards to dead time, but I suppose that is where having the right sized supercharger for the motor is important. Also plenum volume will be important, the bigger the beter is guess for cylinder filling but if it is to big i may experience lag from low rpm. However part of the beauty of supercharging is that it will be making boost even with the throttle shut, it will just be dumping it to atmosphere instead of the motor.

Be a lot of waste with the throttle between the charger and engine? I thought they usually put them in front of the charger. Or is the lag reduction worth a little bit more fuel consumption?
Or dual throttles, one behind controlling what goes into the engine, and one in front to control manifold pressure.
Maybe I should get a copy of those books too, this shit is interesting!


When setting up a datum edge in the mill, I use a 10mm diameter touch probe which is awesome as long as you remember to include the 5mm radius of what ever you zero an edge at, otherwise it will machine everything with a bloody 5mm offset. Of course only noticed it after the first cut. Never rush jobs during lunch breaks haha.

Looking pretty bling dude! Done the offset one once of twice myself, worse one is getting tool heights muddled up :weep:

[Sketchy_Racer]

very nice job Sketchy

Cheers mate


Be a lot of waste with the throttle between the charger and engine? I thought they usually put them in front of the charger. Or is the lag reduction worth a little bit more fuel consumption?
Or dual throttles, one behind controlling what goes into the engine, and one in front to control manifold pressure.
Maybe I should get a copy of those books too, this shit is interesting!

Looking pretty bling dude! Done the offset one once of twice myself, worse one is getting tool heights muddled up :weep:

The throttle body will be mounted just before the intake port of the head pretty much replicating the fuel system lay out of a modern EFI bike.

Haha, I'm lucky enough to have over 100 tool holders which I keep a library of tools setup in, means when I program a job I can call up any tool in the library and it has the associated tool length offset to avoid collision, basically if the CAM software simulates it, she's good to go. Only time it fails is if I put the tools in the wrong position in the tool holder. However I have once replaced a worn tool and forgot to reset the tool length.... the vice was not so happy about that and neither was the boss ;)

Crashing CNC machines isn't a mater of "It it will happen" it's more of a case of "when it will happen"

[speights_bud]

worse one is getting tool heights muddled up :weep:

When i started my new job i found they'd written a macro to try monkey proof setting tool lengths, now its just into MDI, M101 T#; the machine gets the pot/tool, then just handle feed down onto height block, flick back to auto, push go. Machine inputs its own tool length and Z axis rapids home. works quite well, is in a victor mill. the Haas mill we have has buttons for tool measure and next tool which is even easier.


Crashing CNC machines isn't a mater of "It it will happen" it's more of a case of "when it will happen"

And with some operators how often will it happen today....

[bogan]

Crashing CNC machines isn't a mater of "It it will happen" it's more of a case of "when it will happen"

Yeh, unless you want to sacrifice production by triple checking everything everytime. Those solid carbide ones make a hell of bang when they let go at full noise though!


When i started my new job i found they'd written a macro to try monkey proof setting tool lengths, now its just into MDI, M101 T#; the machine gets the pot/tool, then just handle feed down onto height block, flick back to auto, push go. Machine inputs its own tool length and Z axis rapids home. works quite well, is in a victor mill. the Haas mill we have has buttons for tool measure and next tool which is even easier.

We use a mitoyo height gauge, just measure them up on the bench and input the data. Saves fucking around with height blocks and datums in the machine, especially good when you're mid job.


And with some operators how often will it happen today....

haha, had to teach 3rd year engineering students for two summers, so I know that feeling (they were fine when I was there, but tried shortcuts when I fucked off). One of them even managed to demolish the wiggler (noisy edgefinder).

[Brian d marge]

[QUOTE=Sketchy_Racer;1130364405]
QUOTE]

Well done, most project dont get of the ground , you will go far young skywalker ,,,,,

Stephen

ps can I use that machine centre , I ll be real careful with it honest gov !

[Grumph]

Yeah I am hoping that the fuel injection system is going to make the fueling control much better, I am looking forward to the kit turn up as I can't really design the rest of the intake system until that arrives. I know I am going to need a blow off valve but though I wouldn't need a safety dump valve with the fuel injection, as even if the intake had a back fire there would not be enough fuel in the air to create conditions for a ignition, thoughts?

I am planning on going to the library this weekend to have a look at those two books, hopefully they are returned on time

-Sketchy

If the Irving book is a later edition without the singles info, PM me & I'll scan and email it to you...I can't post pics on this site....

Explosion valve will IMO be needed not for potential ignition bangs but the whole system will see a pressure rise and I reckon you'll need to protect the $$$ blowoff valve. We had only one genuine backfire with plenum ignition....split the plenum and scared shit out of the guy sitting on the bike. Amazingly it kept running - badly - so got shut down toot sweet. Backed off the explosion valve spring tension a couple of turns after that which rendered it a bit too sensitive but at least we knew we weren't going to have another huge bang.

[bucketracer]

The Plenum

ok its not supercharged but it is a working plenum and on a 2-stroke no less.

266995

The idea behind this plenum was as a way of getting around the restrictive 24mm carb rule, the idea being that the motor would draw from the plenum through a bigger inlet tract while the carburator was still a legal 24mm.

The theory is, that as the motor only sucks for about half a crank shaft rotation, the 24mm carb at wide open throttle would have a full crank shaft rotation or twice the time to re fill the plenum and therfore potentialy flow twice the air than it would have. The prototype plenum on TeeZee's 125cc bike started at 1000cc.

266996

To form a seal and cushion for the blow off plate, the top of the case was milled flat then a thin bead of silicon glue laid on it. Strips of sellotape were put on the blow off plate as a parting agent, then the plate was lightly screwed down on the silicon glue to form a flat seal surface.

266993

TeeZees plenum, is 4x the cylinder volume and the on track throttle response feels soft, a bit like winding on a std FXR. This soft feel helps with getting the throttle on earlier in a corner than you can when the engine has the typical 2-stroke hit. TeeZee thinks this softening of the throttle response is a real help with on track drivability.

EngMod2T suggests a volume 8x the cylinder would be better for power and low end torque. In researching plenums 10x or more for supercharged engines was the go, in fact the talk was for supercharging and power the plenum cant be to big and the size was more likely to be restricted by the space available.

266992

When its running TeeZees plenum is full of combustibale fuel/air and goes bang quite often, particularly on over rev and the original 4mm blow off plate got bent out of shape but the 10mm one has stood up OK. The green scotch bright glued to the stop plate forms a blow off cushion, its needed as the pops can be quite robust.

We had thought the explosive mixture might blow the casing apart but after a lot of pops and bangs that has not happened.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well I was hoping to be telling everyone that the super charger is no complete but it would appear I have made a cock up.

When I made the shafts I must have made them to much of an interference with the rotors as I have had some distorion of the shafts and I can't get my gears to mesh well enough. I have run the super charger on the end of drill at 2500RPM and it certainly moves a lot of air!

So I'm going to have to leave it where it is for the rest of next week as I have had a big job come in so wont get any machine time to re-make the rotors, shafts and gears. It's not as bad as it may seem, the beauty with CNC is now the programs are there it is literally a case of put the blanks in the mill, set the datums and hit the go button.

Aside from that I have figured out how I am going to put the pulley belt on the end of the crank and cut the cases out to give me clearance to run the belt. The belt will be a poly V belt 15mm wide.

Also the next part it going to be making some mounts to hold the supercharger. Looking back I should have built them into the housing but it's not a big problem.

I fitted the oil cooler and adaptor plate, happy with how that came out, the oil cooler is off a old harley and is nice and light with a good volume.

This week will be mounting the supercharger and getting the belt drive to it sorted, then hopefully the fuel injection kit will have turned up so I can look at getting all that mounted, and finish the intake system.


Cheers,

-Sketchy

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[bucketracer]

Bad luck with the shafts, still its a very interesting project and very impressive engineering.

[bogan]

Change some other bits while you're there :innocent:

http://eurotoysltd.com/catalog/images/cut_a_way.jpg

[TZ350]

Hi Sketchy

pressure wave superchargers I didn't know they existed untill I was inspired by your project to look at superchargers on the net.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_pulse_pressure_charging

Exhaust pulse pressure charging (EPPC) is a system for supercharging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger) two-stroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_cycle) diesel engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine) of the loop-scavenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_cycle#Loop-scavenged) type. Loop-scavenge engines cannot be pressure-charged in the same way as uniflow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_cycle#Uniflow) engines or four-stroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_cycle) engines because the inlet and exhaust ports are open at the same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_wave_supercharger

A pressure wave supercharger The process is controlled by a cylindrical cell rotor whose speed is synchronised with the engine crankshaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankshaft) speed via a belt or chain. Individual cells alternately open and close the exhaust gas and fresh air apertures, when the aperture on the exhaust gas side is reached pressurised exhaust gas flows into the cell and compresses the fresh air there.

267168

As the cell rotor continues to rotate and reaches the aperture on the inlet side the compressed air flows to the engine. Before the exhaust gas can flow the aperture is closed again and the exhaust gas column is reflected before entering the engine. The exhaust gas exits at high speed sucking further intake air into the cell behind it repeating the process.

Energy exchange in the pressure-wave supercharger occurs at sound velocity, resulting in good response even at low engine speeds, a common downfall of turbocharged engines. It combines the advantages of mechanical and exhaust gas supercharging.

267169

http://www.idsc.ethz.ch/Research_Guzzella/Automotive_Applications/Gasoline_Engines/Pressure_Wave_Systems


So if a 2-stroke is already supercharged by the exhaust system, then would it be ok to extend the inertial pressure wave process to the inlet side as there will be no mechanical compressing involved only an open chamber with some ports.

A pressure wave supercharger, clever idea but probably not in the spirit of things for a F4 2-stroke.... :cry:

[Sketchy_Racer]

I've never seen that before, very interesting! I'm sure if you built it no one would mind, I've been told the rule book is just a guide line anyway :devil2:

Would be very simple to manufacture in comparison to the roots style as there are no gears just a simple vane pump really.

[TZ350]

I've never seen that before, very interesting! I'm sure if you built it no one would mind, I've been told the rule book is just a guide line anyway :devil2:

Would be very simple to manufacture in comparison to the roots style as there are no gears just a simple vane pump really.

I am impressed by you building your own supercharger.

And yes it would be fun to try one of these wave rotor superchargers, a lot of info can be found here:- http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/projects_waverotor.htm
(http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/projects_waverotor.htm)

[bogan]

Doesn't strike me as being too rpm resilient. Won't the clearing of the rotor chambers do a lot better at a certain rpm? I also read that they often use this design in conjunction with a low pressure blower to chase the exhaust gases out of the rotor. Is a pretty neat idea though!
I really want to try one of them fandangled twin screw blowers now, got the 4 axis for it, just need the rotor dimensions...

[speights_bud]

Check out this video at around 1:20 mark, it uses the same idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=m-ZWPnvC0wc

Cheers

-Sketchy

So i actually only just watched that video, these are exactly the same/are the pumps i used to build.

[Brian d marge]

So i actually only just watched that video, these are exactly the same/are the pumps i used to build.
what happens when the shaft stops suddenly?

Stephen

[speights_bud]

what happens when the shaft stops suddenly?

Stephen

Umm depends if the other one keeps going...:devil2:

Had one the plant installer managed to get a spanner dropped in there it got real nasty, makes a hell of a mess of the rotors and housing beyond a 2mm oversize machine job. But it also damages shafts, bearings & shears off keyways etc. Have seen a 50mm shaft sheared off :headbang: and them big ceramic seals aint cheap either!

They don't usually stop going around though, they just start eating themselves:lol:

If the clearances between the lobes and the housing/front plate aren't set right the lobes start rubbing and can pick up scoring the crap out of both faces, kinda like just feeding that 2-stroke some more right when its considering seizing up. Most likely to happen once machine is up to temp in working environment and was set too tightly on the bench.

This also happens when one particular dickhead machinist/colleague doesn't check his tooling and leaves a small radius in the housing corner and nobody finds out until re-assembly time and then its back into the machine for round 2.....

[pete376403]

Ferrari tried the pressure wave superchargers in F1 back when 1500 turbos were being run against 3.0NA motors. They worked but were abandoned becuase of problems and turbocharging had higher potential.

[Grumph]

Ferrari tried the pressure wave superchargers in F1 back when 1500 turbos were being run against 3.0NA motors. They worked but were abandoned becuase of problems and turbocharging had higher potential.

Brown- Boveri did a lot of work with Ferrari. I understand power wasn't a problem but the curve was rather like a 2 stroke coming on pipe.
Not what the car punters wanted. Turbos could be and were developed to give the characteristics wanted.

The screw type compressors are trick all right. Glen Smiths TQ used I believe a Lysholm blower. They had a shitload of trouble with it until they data logged it. Turned out that the blower acceleration rate was so high it was simply twisting the shafts like bamboo.
Lysholm made them a special blower in the end - oversize shafts and I believe magnesium rotors.Cost no object....
What was happening was when the thing lost traction the revs just went up instantly.
That thing had injection into the blower - and into the ports as well.

[Sketchy_Racer]

So I spent an hour or so last night designing the 2 lobe rotor. It's come out great and It will be much easier to maintain tolerance between the two which is also good!

I have also designed the cradle that will hold the supercharger and give me the ability to tension the belt. I am not running a separate tensioner bearing and pullet, rather I am moving the supercharger and locking it in place.

So that's todays project, go get the mount sorted.


http://youtu.be/kFUDnvBHIK8


http://youtu.be/zcZfN10Fpso

267197

[DEATH_INC.]

How the hell did I miss this thread????
Looking pretty awesome fella!

All this supercharging talk.....I remember years ago a guy made a KX500 engine (I think) with a four stroke head on it....used the bottom end compression to supercharge the top end. Had Valves like a four stroke, but fired every stroke like a two stroke. Went well apparently, but ran a bit hot. Long time ago...don't know if there's anything on the net about it....

[Drew]

Yo Glen, if you haven't mounted the supercharger yet, why don't you just get an electric start set of casings for the motor. Viola, drive without hacking cases to bits.

[Drew]

How the hell did I miss this thread????


You're not as young as you were bro.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yo Glen, if you haven't mounted the supercharger yet, why don't you just get an electric start set of casings for the motor. Viola, drive without hacking cases to bits.

Thought of that, but makes it to difficult to change pulley sizes and given that it is going to be incredibly hard for me to calculate the efficiency of the supercharger it is really going to be a hit and miss with the pulley ratios.

Drive really isn't an issue and the charger is all mounted up now so were getting close to business time.

[Sketchy_Racer]

So this evening I have been doing some research into some ideas to combat the pulsing effect from supercharging a single cylinder engine. I have stumbled upon a tech article from SAE site so thought it would be worth the download.

I would like to share it but it is secured PDF so wont be much use to you all but the short of the long is that they took a 660cc yamaha quad bike engine and supercharged it, despite all the cons against it. The motor is for the formula SAE racecar which is designed and built by university students, such as the one early linked in this thread.

There is some very complex (well, complex to me) calculations and algorithms that they have used to derive the data that they needed to create there intake system, but the concepts are what excited me.

The general rule of thumb is that with a supercharged single cylinder motors that plenum size is very important in dealing with the pulses caused by the 180 degree intake cycle. So a large plenum is used to act a fluid (air is defined as a fluid) cushion for these pulses as well as acting as a pneumatic accumulator. The way it works is that the supercharge is displacing a fixed volume of air, however the motor is drawing it in as gulps taking a gulp for 180 degrees of crank rotation ever second rotation of the crank. So if we did not have a plenum what would happen would when the intake valve opens it would take a big gulp of air from the supercharger, but then the intake valve shuts abruptly causing a massive pressure spike. The supercharge is now trying to force all that air into a volume and the pressure spike would go through the roof causing massive surging and all sorts of issues.

So a large plenum is the solution to this, but it comes with a major down fall, that is being that it creates a lag between on and off throttle application as it takes time for the supercharger to build the pressure inside this large volume tank.

In this SAE paper they have used a very simple concept to achieve the best of both worlds using a classic helmholtz resonator to give work with the frequency of the intake pulses and the supercharge flow. The only down side being that it only works in certain RPM ranges where the frequency is correct.

Here some screen shots from the article (shhs don't tell them)

267259267258

Another option I was looking into was to install a reed valve on the intake to the plenum so that when the throttle is shut and the intake vacuum opens the blow off valve the pressure built inside the plenum remains as well as any back pulses are contained meaning that surge is taken care of. These are two items I am going to research some more. But the reed valve solution intrigues me

So still learning plenty and so far happy that I have not had to back track too much so hopefully with enough research I wont have to re-do much of the work when it comes time to run the bike.

Here are some pictures of the supercharger mount, really simply desing works really well and is amazingly rigid which is very important. I have gone with using steel for the mounting structures for the engine and supercharger as my experience is that anything fabricated from ally cracks in these applications unless is really thick, thus weighing the same as the steel one!

267260267261267262267263

It still needs a tidy up and a paint job.

[Drew]

Why not mount the carb inside the plenum mounted as normal. Lag is no longer a problem, and you wont need to keep replacing blower rotors from being eaten.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Why not mount the carb inside the plenum mounted as normal. Lag is no longer a problem, and you wont need to keep replacing blower rotors from being eaten.

Haha because it's going to be running EFI with a throttle body :cool:

[Grumph]

Interesting stuff,but IMO, for your layout a blind alley...
You as I understand it, are going to blow air into a plenum and then through the throttle/injection body into the port. IMO again, you won't have any lag problems with that layout.
The blowoff valve is going to take care of pressure spikes when the throttle is closed and pressure in the plenum will remain at whatever the base setting is on the blowoff valve. No reed valves needed, when it's turning the blower is a very effective one way valve....

Mounts...I did a 10mm alloy plate up the side of our motor which the end of the blower mounted to. Absorbed all the drive stresses and located the blower laterally. I had no room to move the blower once in so there was a jockey tensioner on the plate also. The plate was also a convenient place to mount ignition pickups...trigger on the backside of the drive pulley. And a seal in the plate where the crank came through.

[ducatilover]

Haha because it's going to be running EFI with a throttle body :cool:

What's the EFi set up off?
I have to agree with Grumph on the blow off valve issue, they're simple, effective and generally reliable.

[Drew]

What's the EFi set up off?
I have to agree with Grumph on the blow off valve issue, they're simple, effective and generally reliable.
Don't be so lazy, read the thread.

He linked to it earlier but I forgot.

Anyhoo, carb or throttle body, mount it at the engine intake and the lag problem is a non issue.

[jonbuoy]

The Eatons come with a backfire valve (just a round spring loaded cap) in the plenum and a vacuum bypass valve that means the engine is only under boost when the engine needs boost you probably not too worried about idle surge or fuel economy on a race bike. Risk of derailing the thread but there is some nice examples of supercharged singles on here:

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html#smog

[DEATH_INC.]

That setup reminds me of the old 'boost bottles' that the yammie mxers ran in the early 80's :laugh:
If ya do what drew sez, run the tb/carb in the normal position, then you make a recirculation system/bov to feed excessive boost back into the charger intake (or vent it...whatever) the plenum will stay at max boost levels with the throttle closed, and be right there ready to go when you crack it back on....
There's no fuel at that point either so no worries about that.
edit: Doh! Pretty much what grumph is saying...

[Sketchy_Racer]

Interesting stuff,but IMO, for your layout a blind alley...
You as I understand it, are going to blow air into a plenum and then through the throttle/injection body into the port. IMO again, you won't have any lag problems with that layout.
The blowoff valve is going to take care of pressure spikes when the throttle is closed and pressure in the plenum will remain at whatever the base setting is on the blowoff valve. No reed valves needed, when it's turning the blower is a very effective one way valve....

Mounts...I did a 10mm alloy plate up the side of our motor which the end of the blower mounted to. Absorbed all the drive stresses and located the blower laterally. I had no room to move the blower once in so there was a jockey tensioner on the plate also. The plate was also a convenient place to mount ignition pickups...trigger on the backside of the drive pulley. And a seal in the plate where the crank came through.

Yes having the throttle body placed on the intake to the motor is certainly going to control a lot of the lag issue, but it still wont overcome the issues with the large pressure waves caused by the intake. I am going to start simple as I like the KISS theory but I will keep these options in mind for future issues/optimisation options.

I'm lucky with the design on the pitbike engine that the flywheel compartment is completely sealed by the ignition back plate making is even easier to get the drive from the motor. I am probably still going to add some gussets in the supercharger mount just to add a little bit more rigidity.

What thickness belt would you recommend? I was thinking of something along the lines of 15mm poly vee belt


What's the EFi set up off?
I have to agree with Grumph on the blow off valve issue, they're simple, effective and generally reliable.

I have ordered a kit from this site - http://www.ecotrons.com

They give you a few kit options, I have got the one that is for turbo applications which also gives me ignition control.


The Eatons come with a backfire valve (just a round spring loaded cap) in the plenum and a vacuum bypass valve that means the engine is only under boost when the engine needs boost you probably not too worried about idle surge or fuel economy on a race bike. Risk of derailing the thread but there is some nice examples of supercharged singles on here:

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html#smog

I will certainly be running a blow off valve as I want to minimise engine braking and shutting the throttle on a supercharger at high RPM is going to cause a lot of load on the pulley trying to stop the motor really fast. I have looked at car type ones but they are all only vacuum operated, I want one that is pressure sensitive (like a waste gate) but without the weight of one so I may look at building my own, or modifying a car blow off valve.

I have had a long look through that site, a lot of interesting photos on there. I had a brief email conversation with him about the blowers but haven't heard from him since. He also runs the Helmholtz resonator on his bike, but he is running a draw through system.


That setup reminds me of the old 'boost bottles' that the yammie mxers ran in the early 80's :laugh:
If ya do what drew sez, run the tb/carb in the normal position, then you make a recirculation system/bov to feed excessive boost back into the charger intake (or vent it...whatever) the plenum will stay at max boost levels with the throttle closed, and be right there ready to go when you crack it back on....
There's no fuel at that point either so no worries about that.
edit: Doh! Pretty much what grumph is saying...

The old boost bottles are exactly that, a resonator. Many cars still have them in the intake system to aid flow at low RPM, and many dumbarse boy racers remove them in favor of their custom "high performance" intake tubes with accompanying pod filter...

[Sketchy_Racer]

So I was bored again last night so I thought I would do a couple more videos, this time of how I go about setting up the CAM software to machine the two lobe rotor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dRZQNUN2ZU&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e4wBfKidI0&feature=plcp

[Yow Ling]

Hey Glen, could you put a sprag clutch in the supercharger drive, so when the engine decelerates it can let the supercharger coast , rather than force it to decelerate at the engine rate

[Grumph]

FFS - don't worry about pressure spikes yet - you're only dealing with a 100cc cylinder and a relatively small volume of pressurised air.
I ran a 1200cc plus plenum full of wet mixture at 18psi with quite big and uneven pressure spikes (in theory anyway) Never had a problem and never saw any variations on the boost gauge...she'll be right mate.

Drive, we used a polyvee about 25mm wide on a blower with 750cc displacement which was quite heavy,,,,never had a drive problem even when revving to 13 grand. The original and only belt is still on my wall. When you machine your pulleys just remember to take the tips off the pointy bits...Glen Smiths TQ had a reputation for shredding belts until they brought it South and I had a look at it. The pulleys still had points....Any V belt is supposed to bear on the sides of the V not the tips.
The polyvee run a tad slack will allow a small amount of slippage on the overrun - easy and uncomplicated.
15mm should be fine.

[ducatilover]

That's a bloody good price on the injection set up, have you considered running the mechanics of that with a micro-squirt ECU? I reckon that'd fuel beautifully.

[Brian d marge]

FFS - don't worry about pressure spikes yet - you're only dealing with a 100cc cylinder and a relatively small volume of pressurised air.
I ran a 1200cc plus plenum full of wet mixture at 18psi with quite big and uneven pressure spikes (in theory anyway) Never had a problem and never saw any variations on the boost gauge...she'll be right mate.

Drive, we used a polyvee about 25mm wide on a blower with 750cc displacement which was quite heavy,,,,never had a drive problem even when revving to 13 grand. The original and only belt is still on my wall. When you machine your pulleys just remember to take the tips off the pointy bits...Glen Smiths TQ had a reputation for shredding belts until they brought it South and I had a look at it. The pulleys still had points....Any V belt is supposed to bear on the sides of the V not the tips.
The polyvee run a tad slack will allow a small amount of slippage on the overrun - easy and uncomplicated.
15mm should be fine.

and no great angle changes ..... be nice to the poor wee thing

Stephen

ps I looked for the cam software ,,,,,,,, how did u get the older one on ur computer ??

[Sketchy_Racer]

and no great angle changes ..... be nice to the poor wee thing

Stephen

ps I looked for the cam software ,,,,,,,, how did u get the older one on ur computer ??

it's the first software our company used so we still have the disk, I just can't create code from it because I don't have the security dongle

[carburator]

just go old school.. 30 degree tip plunged works well..

i have floating around a cad file for it, used 3mm raduis at the peak
works very well for me..

267360

[Brian d marge]

it's the first software our company used so we still have the disk, I just can't create code from it because I don't have the security dongle

I use Linux and ,,yes well the CAD, CAM scene is ...yes limited ..There are alternatives ( good sometimes to ) such as Calculix , and Salome but the CAM side of things ......

Stephen

[Sketchy_Racer]

The EFI kit turned up today. Super happy with it so far it's all as it was advertised and fits together well.

I had to make an adapter to allow me to bolt the throttle body down. It also let me orientate the injector to get the best angle (i think) into the port. The injector pretty much aims directly at the intake valve.

Then it was wires, i've now got

Throttle position sensor
Manifold absolute pressure
Engine temperature
Intake air temperature
O2 sensor
crank position sensor

All the cool stuff to keep an eye on what's going on.

I'm so far really impressed with the software and how many parameters it lets you adjust. A lot of it does not need adjusting such as enrichment factors relative to altitude where the values stay the same.

So hopefully I'll look at getting it plugged into the computer and get it talking on the weekend. Can't start the engine even if I wanted though as the barrel is at work getting the sleeve swapped out for the smaller one to get me under 100cc

Also on the supercharger front, I have finished the two lobe rotors and made a second set of gears, fits together great and have gone with 0.1mm wall to rotor clearance, 0.08 endplate clearance on both sides and 0.1 rotor to rotor clearance.

The gears have a total of 0.03mm back lash (putting the dial gauge on a tooth) so I think that will be fine relative to the clearances inside the housing.

I still need to get a belt and make some pulley and some intake and outlet fittings for the supercharger.

Lots to do, but it's looking like a bike now!

Cheers,

-Sketchy

267483267484267485267486267487267488

[Grumph]

I appreciate that you may well want to integrate boost pressure into the ignition and maybe fuelling curves, but I'd really recommend also fitting a mechanical boost pressure gauge. One fitting on the plenum and a pipe, not hard, and it gives you a check on what your electronics are telling you.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I appreciate that you may well want to integrate boost pressure into the ignition and maybe fuelling curves, but I'd really recommend also fitting a mechanical boost pressure gauge. One fitting on the plenum and a pipe, not hard, and it gives you a check on what your electronics are telling you.

Of course mate, we couldnt run forced induction without a gauge! Yeah I have a small one from my turbo 250 that i'll steal.

Cheers for the feedback as well mate, it's good to have someone with experience help out and save me some aggrivation when I cock stuff up.


-Sketchy

[Sketchy_Racer]

Now as I understand I am going to need a good strong spark for running boost. The ecu is powered by a battery and I am still to figure if I am going to run a charge system, will figure out how long the battery will last
The ECU lets me run a compensation for voltage drop to maintain correct injector and spark timing which is cool.
I have a old coil off god knows what that I used on the MB100 motor for years but I am better off getting something new fit for the purpose?

Cheers,

Sketchy

[Drew]

Were I you, I'd get a plug top coil from something modern.

[Grumph]

Of course mate, we couldnt run forced induction without a gauge! Yeah I have a small one from my turbo 250 that i'll steal.

Cheers for the feedback as well mate, it's good to have someone with experience help out and save me some aggrivation when I cock stuff up.


-Sketchy

You Hope.....

Ignition - I've no idea what the Longshit uses as stock but you're obviously going to have to have a battery so any 12V coil OF THE CORRECT RESISTANCE should do. The plug top coils are in my experience, very low primary resistance and may not match whatever ignition you use. We used std Kawa 500 coils with an ER&D box which just had more agressive advance curve and higher rev limit.
No probs firing meth at high pressure. Plug range is going to be interesting - on meth you run the hottest plug you can get away with but you're going to have to start at around NGK 12 IMO....

[F5 Dave]

well it will be interesting to see this go, I've been at this bucket lark for well over 20 years & never seen an F4 super before. Heard of one that was rubbish, seen Diesels 'thing' & Mikes pics, but looks like you've done some great work as usual.

. . .so where's my old H100 engine at? Have to look at building a 125 version at some stage.

[TZ350]

I'd really recommend also fitting a mechanical boost pressure gauge. One fitting on the plenum and a pipe, not hard, and it gives you a check

The few things I remember from playing with superchargers, was that a mechanical boost gauge in the inlet manifold after the throttle plate could tell you when things were going wrong in the valve train like a kissed valve or weak valve spring as the boost would start to blow straight through. And then there is the heat, supercharged engines produce a great volume of waste heat in the cooling system and exhaust that needs to be accomodated. Although only standard cams were needed for good power the exhaust note was much louder and the ignition timing was 10 deg plus 10 advance, that and no choke was needed because of the churning action of the rotor lobes on the suck through setup. And the shreek of the belts slipping on full boost and max revs. And instead of reving it right out, short shifting and driving it on the torque curve was the go.

Your bike is Bucket history in the making, when you have it running I would love to come to Kaitoki again just to hear and see it out on the track.

[Moooools]

The EFI kit turned up today. Super happy with it so far it's all as it was advertised and fits together well.

I had to make an adapter to allow me to bolt the throttle body down. It also let me orientate the injector to get the best angle (i think) into the port. The injector pretty much aims directly at the intake valve.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

267483267484267485267486267487267488


You really want to have that injector spraying down before the valves. That way when it is picked up in the air stream it gets diverted onto the valves.

You also might want to to some spray pattern testing. Just apply fuel pressure and hook the injector up to 12V. If the spray is conical then no need to worry, but if the spray is flat then orient the injector so it sprays a horizontally. Injected machines can be quite picky with this; especially when starting.

Otherwise looking really good. Very impressed.

[pete376403]

Also on the supercharger front, I have finished the two lobe rotors and made a second set of gears, fits together great and have gone with 0.1mm wall to rotor clearance, 0.08 endplate clearance on both sides and 0.1 rotor to rotor clearance.


Given that compressing the air will heat things up, have you made allowance for rotor expansion?

[Drew]

Given that compressing the air will heat things up, have you made allowance for rotor expansion?

Have you read the whole thread? This got covered early on in the piece.

[pete376403]

Yeah I have and I'm not trying to knock the guy - I'm in awe of his talents, and I would love to see it running.

I just had a look at 0.1mm on my caliper (about the thickness of standard bond paper) and given the amount of metal in the rotors I'm guessing ("guessing", you will note) that they will expand more than the housing. Will be delighted to be proven wrong.

Rotor expansion is a big problem in top fuel blowers, they inject fuel before the rotors (as well as after) for the cooling effect.

[Drew]

Yeah I have and I'm not trying to knock the guy - I'm in awe of his talents, and I would love to see it running.

I just had a look at 0.1mm on my caliper (about the thickness of standard bond paper) and given the amount of metal in the rotors I'm guessing ("guessing", you will note) that they will expand more than the housing. Will be delighted to be proven wrong.

Rotor expansion is a big problem in top fuel blowers, they inject fuel before the rotors (as well as after) for the cooling effect.

Slight difference in pressure though. A top fuel blower takes more power to drive the thing, than a standard 426 hemi makes.

[Grumph]

Yeah I have and I'm not trying to knock the guy - I'm in awe of his talents, and I would love to see it running.

I just had a look at 0.1mm on my caliper (about the thickness of standard bond paper) and given the amount of metal in the rotors I'm guessing ("guessing", you will note) that they will expand more than the housing. Will be delighted to be proven wrong.

Rotor expansion is a big problem in top fuel blowers, they inject fuel before the rotors (as well as after) for the cooling effect.

I tend to agree...as i've said earlier on here we finished up with .50mm clearance on rotors aprox 150mm long. The rotors are always hotter than the case as there's no good heat path away.
The classic sequence is run it, seize it, enlarge clearances, repeat sequence until it doesn't seize....
By the end of our sequence we had lost 2 psi but the bastard never seized again.

There's always water injection....or just get the rider to piss in the intake if you don't want the weight of a tank.

[F5 Dave]

Rider is a skinny bstd so better hope for short races, or maybe a camel back:killingme

[pete376403]

I tend to agree...as i've said earlier on here we finished up with .50mm clearance on rotors aprox 150mm long. The rotors are always hotter than the case as there's no good heat path away.
The classic sequence is run it, seize it, enlarge clearances, repeat sequence until it doesn't seize....
By the end of our sequence we had lost 2 psi but the bastard never seized again.

There's always water injection....or just get the rider to piss in the intake if you don't want the weight of a tank.

Nah, water would already be 98 degrees F.

[TZ350]

Nah, water would already be 98 degrees F.

Nah, that’s ok as it’s the latent heat of evaporation that will do the cooling, stinky but.

[DEATH_INC.]

You really want to have that injector spraying down before the valves. That way when it is picked up in the air stream it gets diverted onto the valves.

You also might want to to some spray pattern testing. Just apply fuel pressure and hook the injector up to 12V.
Coirrect me if I'm wrong, but don't you mean 3v? (or was it 5) 12v will fry the injector quick smart if applied for long.
Apparently you move the injector position relevant to the rpm you wanna use. I'm thinking for this sort of application it'll be just fine where he has it, there'll be masses of turbulence to mix it up.
As for the charging system, or lack of it, put one on, you'll need a high pressure fuel pump, they suck a bit of power. Or at least you'll need a decent size battery to keep the charge up.

[Moooools]

Coirrect me if I'm wrong, but don't you mean 3v? (or was it 5) 12v will fry the injector quick smart if applied for long.
Apparently you move the injector position relevant to the rpm you wanna use. I'm thinking for this sort of application it'll be just fine where he has it, there'll be masses of turbulence to mix it up.
As for the charging system, or lack of it, put one on, you'll need a high pressure fuel pump, they suck a bit of power. Or at least you'll need a decent size battery to keep the charge up.

You might be right there. Probably 5V. From memory we just used 12V and you only need it on for half a second. Or maybe there was a resistor in series. Can't remember.

[bogan]

And instead of reving it right out, short shifting and driving it on the torque curve was the go.

This reminds me of an interesting discussion I was having. On the RC-31s (aka Hawk Gt, aka Bros650) the crank is pretty weak, and is prone to flying apart up near 100hp @10krpm. Now I've heard most of the crank stresses are from the centrifugal forces as it spins. So what I was wondering, if it is blown, and only revved to say 6krpm, will it be able to make more power with less chance of shredding cranks? Or will the extra power required for the blower make it snap earlier?

[Drew]

This reminds me of an interesting discussion I was having. On the RC-31s (aka Hawk Gt, aka Bros650) the crank is pretty weak, and is prone to flying apart up near 100hp @10krpm. Now I've heard most of the crank stresses are from the centrifugal forces as it spins. So what I was wondering, if it is blown, and only revved to say 6krpm, will it be able to make more power with less chance of shredding cranks? Or will the extra power required for the blower make it snap earlier?

Have you managed to define "centrifugal force"? I ask because no one else has.

The enertia is what makes the crank fly to pieces, closest thing to what people think of as centrifugal force, is good old fashioned momentum.

Now that the real basic physics lesson ois over, lets consider the problem. If the motor is blown and does achieve the same output at lower revs, the forces on the crank/bearings/casingings is, exactly the same as wht you started with.

That is all.

[k14]

Have you managed to define "centrifugal force"? I ask because no one else has.

The enertia is what makes the crank fly to pieces, closest thing to what people think of as centrifugal force, is good old fashioned momentum.

Now that the real basic physics lesson ois over, lets consider the problem. If the motor is blown and does achieve the same output at lower revs, the forces on the crank/bearings/casingings is, exactly the same as wht you started with.

That is all.
Well if you deem a real basic physics lesson as complete bs then you have given just that...

Inertia is not a force, it is a constant. Analogous to mass in linear mechanics. Bogan is on the right track, centrifugal force is the correct way of describing what would tear a crank apart if the metal is not strong enough to withstand it. Centrifugal force increases as the speed of the rotating mass increases and thus at a certain speed things fly apart. Once you have assembled the engine the inertia doesn't change (well apart from when it flys to bits!).

[Drew]

Well if you deem a real basic physics lesson as complete bs then you have given just that...

Inertia is not a force, it is a constant. Analogous to mass in linear mechanics. Bogan is on the right track, centrifugal force is the correct way of describing what would tear a crank apart if the metal is not strong enough to withstand it. Centrifugal force increases as the speed of the rotating mass increases and thus at a certain speed things fly apart. Once you have assembled the engine the inertia doesn't change (well apart from when it flys to bits!).

OK, my bad.

Provided you think that matter is being thrown off the crank due to it's rotation, then he's right. I've never seen that happen though, usually the bearings just fail and shit snaps. That's just caused by friction.

[DEATH_INC.]

OK, my bad.

Provided you think that matter is being thrown off the crank due to it's rotation, then he's right. I've never seen that happen though, usually the bearings just fail and shit snaps. That's just caused by friction.
Nope, I'm pretty sure you were thinking the right thing to start, cranks usually break due to the force it takes to stop the piston and rod and pull em back down again at high speeds. Not the centrifugal force coming from the crank itself...but kinetic energy or ½ mv² if I remember right...
Occasionally you may see one break from too much twisting force, or harmonic vibration or a couple of other things too...

[Grumph]

This reminds me of an interesting discussion I was having. On the RC-31s (aka Hawk Gt, aka Bros650) the crank is pretty weak, and is prone to flying apart up near 100hp @10krpm. Now I've heard most of the crank stresses are from the centrifugal forces as it spins. So what I was wondering, if it is blown, and only revved to say 6krpm, will it be able to make more power with less chance of shredding cranks? Or will the extra power required for the blower make it snap earlier?

The answers are actually, yes, no and maybe....
When you boost a motor you increase the bearing loads from explosion pressure....But as has been correctly stated, most of the load on a crank is actually inertia (note spelling please). There is a point in the rev range where the inertia loads become greater than the loads from explosion pressure - called the crossover point. When boosted the effect is to raise the crossover point. This can in some cases be of great benefit to bearing life and crank longevity.
In the case of the RC31 I suspect that Hondas well known inability to finish cranks properly has more to do with their flying apart than anything else. A new RC31 crank with the oil galleries properly radiused, clearanced correctly, balanced correctly and probably with a smaller alternator rotor to raise it's natural frequency should last under race conditions.

[bogan]

The answers are actually, yes, no and maybe....
When you boost a motor you increase the bearing loads from explosion pressure....But as has been correctly stated, most of the load on a crank is actually inertia (note spelling please). There is a point in the rev range where the inertia loads become greater than the loads from explosion pressure - called the crossover point. When boosted the effect is to raise the crossover point. This can in some cases be of great benefit to bearing life and crank longevity.
In the case of the RC31 I suspect that Hondas well known inability to finish cranks properly has more to do with their flying apart than anything else. A new RC31 crank with the oil galleries properly radiused, clearanced correctly, balanced correctly and probably with a smaller alternator rotor to raise it's natural frequency should last under race conditions.

Crossover point eh, thats a good keyword to start some more research with.

http://www.hordpower.com/gallery/albums/guest/hawkcrank_004.jpg

You're probably right with the later, it just so happens Marine Crankshafts are doing a run of super strong billet cranks. Will have to make a shit-tonne of cash before I can pursue that option. Also noted, was that the clutch basket disintegrates, rods break, and small ends ovalise at those sort of power figure too.

[ducatilover]

Not to forget that a blower is stressing the crank in different directions to the combustion forces.
Look at bearings that have fucked out under blower use and bearing that have shat out from too much timing/why, all different areas of the bearings are rooted.
Snapped cranks are good fun

[ducatilover]

Crossover point eh, thats a good keyword to start some more research with.



You're probably right with the later, it just so happens Marine Crankshafts are doing a run of super strong billet cranks. Will have to make a shit-tonne of cash before I can pursue that option. Also noted, was that the clutch basket disintegrates, rods break, and small ends ovalise at those sort of power figure too.

Ouch.
And too much vibration and/or give. I'm glad mine never did that :eek5:

[Grumph]

Looking at where that's broken, I'd say torsional vibration is the culprit.

We knew there was a problem with the Kawa 500 twins cranks which broke if you left the alternator rotor fitted and revved shit out of them.
I used the altenator boss to mount a lightweight ignition trigger on the motors I built and I never broke a crank - incl Tony McMurdo's one which got run harder than the others. Raised the naural resonance frequency of the crank above what was obviously a critical point.
Rods break if the bearings pick up cos the oil holes aren't done right by Honda....and stock Honda rods shouldn't be used at high power levels anyway. Don't people research history ? Honda rods have been going oval in the small ends since the CB750....

[speedpro]

Doing some simple maths(which I can't remember any more) on the forces inside an engine clearly show that in a regular engine the forces created in the power making process are dwarfed by the forces created when things turn or reciprocate quickly. Simple illustration - piston forces. bmep = 128psi but the "g" forces may be 6-8000 at peak. Multiply the g force by the piston mass and you see which value is the problem.

[Sketchy_Racer]

267629
I tend to agree...as i've said earlier on here we finished up with .50mm clearance on rotors aprox 150mm long. The rotors are always hotter than the case as there's no good heat path away.
The classic sequence is run it, seize it, enlarge clearances, repeat sequence until it doesn't seize....
By the end of our sequence we had lost 2 psi but the bastard never seized again.

There's always water injection....or just get the rider to piss in the intake if you don't want the weight of a tank.

Okay, so I finished final assembly of the two lobe supercharger today, and here are the measurements.

Body Depth = 50.01mm
Drive Rotor length = 49.62mm
Driven Rotor length = 49.60mm

So for rotor end clearance I have got between 0.195mm and 2.05mm Which means that there would theoretically have to be a 200 degree difference in temperature difference between the rotor and housing before I need to worry about it seizing.

Body Diameter Driven side = 57.98mm
Body Diameter Drive side = 57.96mm (measured 57.00 when in the mill, but measured on a colder day and I think the housing has been stress relieved and moved a little.

Rotor Major Diameter = 57.59mm (both were the same size)

So again we are looking at 0.195mm clearance rotor to housing, and the same for rotor to rotor clearance.

For "technical" testing I have ran the charger at 3000Rpm for 30 minutes with marking blue on all surfaces and with the heat gun getting it up to around 100 degrees using the old spit test) and it didn't seize on me and upon pull down it would seem there is no contact which is good! Looks like it has sucked a bit of floating shit through it from my dust garage but only very very faint marks in the bearing blue.


You really want to have that injector spraying down before the valves. That way when it is picked up in the air stream it gets diverted onto the valves.

You also might want to to some spray pattern testing. Just apply fuel pressure and hook the injector up to 12V. If the spray is conical then no need to worry, but if the spray is flat then orient the injector so it sprays a horizontally. Injected machines can be quite picky with this; especially when starting.

Otherwise looking really good. Very impressed.

From what I have read, everything online (although to do with cars a injector is an injector) they recommend trying to get the injector to spray directly onto the intake valve as they suggest that the heat of the valve vaporises the fuel into and even finer mist before entering the combustion chamber. It looks like that is how the setup is on the GSXR600 racebike I have in the shed, I might pop the tank off and take a closer looks and see if they do it like that.

Haven't though about spray pattern testing, I'm going to take a punt and say that it is a flat sprat pattern as it has two holes about 50 microns in diameter.

Todays mission is to start porting the head to match up the throttle body, adapter plate and intake port.

Oh I got the PC talking to the ECU now, there is definitely something cool about plugging PC's into bucket racers. My friend who uses Motec engine management system popped in to take a look and is pretty impressed with the adjustability of the Ecotrons EFI kit. Can't wait to get it fired and start tuning it!

267629

[Grumph]

Yep, those clearances will do as a start point. Good work.

Yes, by all means try and aim the injector stream at the back of the inlet valve. It might make all the difference thermally.

I seem to remember Gurney doing quite a bit of dyno research into injector placement on Chevys and finding that aiming at the back of the valve was significantly better.

[Yow Ling]

267629


So for rotor end clearance I have got between 0.195mm and 2.05mm Which means that there would theoretically have to be a 200 degree difference in temperature difference between the rotor and housing before I need to worry about it seizing.



Clearancs like that sound like my kind of engineering

[Sketchy_Racer]

So the progress has been slow but lots of the little time consuming jobs have been taken care of, I have got the motor back together after porting the head and un shrouding the valves in the combustion chamber. I measured up the compression ratio and I am at 8.3:1 which is bone stock and the perfect number for me, can't believe how low the stock compression ratio is!

Had the valve seats cut as I smoked them with the grinder doing the ports, whoops. Pretty happy with how it has come out, The port arrangement is really shit but it will have to do.

I will get the cam looked at next but for now I just want to get the motor running without the charger at first.

Tonight I machined up a pulley and crank trigger on my little bench lathe, It's a pain in the ass coming from nice british colchester lathes trying to do accurate angles and diameters but with the use of a couple of Dial gauges I had one set on the cross slide and saddle to give me and accurate readout of the positions.

Really happy with how the pulley/trigger turned out, even got the electrics making a spark tonight! It's tempting to fire it up but I will wait until I get the exhaust at least!.

Anyway nothing to exciting but here are a couple of pics of the progress.

267967267968267969267970267971

Also got a dash from lascom motorsport, it looks pretty sweet, does two temp readings, thinking one for the motor and one for the supercharger also can piggy back onto the 02 sensor so I can see what that is doing.

http://www.koso.com.tw/products-detail.php?lang=en&id=308

That's all for now!

[TZ350]

I will get the cam looked at next but for now I just want to get the motor running without the charger at first.

My sons Toyota Turbo had no overlap at all. What is your plans for cam timing?

[Grumph]

Do you have the std Longshit cam figures ?

Turbos are a whole different deal re cam timing...in this motor IMO a fair amount of overlap is desirable to give a blow - through period to cool off the valves....

[speights_bud]

Really happy with how the pulley/trigger turned out, even got the electrics making a spark tonight!

So how does the wiring diagram work out? given the funky colors and your high pressure bag end?

[Sketchy_Racer]

My sons Toyota Turbo had no overlap at all. What is your plans for cam timing?

The cam is stock at the moment and would appear that is has absolutely no overlap at all but in saying that I have not put the DTI to measure it. I will start with this and look to change it to optimise it later.


Do you have the std Longshit cam figures ?

Turbos are a whole different deal re cam timing...in this motor IMO a fair amount of overlap is desirable to give a blow - through period to cool off the valves....

Funny you should mention that, everything I have read has suggested that valve overlap is no good in supercharged engines as it just chucks the boost pressure out the exhaust but my thoughts are along the lines of valve cooling also that if the correct amount of overlap is used you can exhale more exhaust gasses so that you end up with a better volumetric efficiency to over come the lost boost energy out the exhaust. Cam's are $30 each so it will be something to easily try out later on.


So how does the wiring diagram work out? given the funky colors and your high pressure bag end?

The wiring off the end of the crank was easy as in the end, I used the stock hall effect sensor and put the whole inner rotor kit aside as it's pulse per rev was to noisy and gave the ecu the shits.

However the rest of the wiring is a farken nightmare I am certainly no auto sparky but everything works as it should so far. In theory if I put fuel in the tank it would run now without the supercharger but I need to finish the exhaust.

[Sketchy_Racer]

So a small update, still boring stuff at the moment but I am getting close to fire it up!

I have finished all the wiring for now, It's ok but certainly not great I will probably redo the whole wiring loom once everything is working just to tidy it up.
My dash arrived today so that went on with a temp sensor on the head of the motor and one in the supercharger. The temp probes are easy to mount as they are M5 threaded so all I had to do was drill and tap a hole and screw them in. They are super sensitive also which is good. The dash is set up to flash an alarm at me if either of the temps go over 100 degree but that is adjustable and also the shift light is set a 10000 RPM at the moment.

I am happy with the dash it is neat and tidy and has everything I need to know while the engine is running.

I have just purchased two handle bar switches, one for ignition and one for map selection so I can trial two different maps in one session which is cool.

I have cut the stainless steel sheet for the plenum now and have taped it into place to check fitment. It looks like it will work ok, it has a volume just shy of 1500cc at the moment which is very large but it is much easier to make it smaller than to make it larger so I thought I would start there. Piping is just radiator hose which should work ok, it can handle boiling water up to 1 Bar so I am sure it can handle hot air to the same.

I am still waiting for the guy off trademe to send my blow off valve, apparently it takes over a week to post something from auckland to wellington.

I have also been doing so study on the tuning software and how to use it. The more I play with it the more I like it.

Next on the list is exhaust design - what's the go with that? I have never done an exhaust for a diesel before. Does supercharging make a difference to design?

Anyway here are some photos and one from an odd ball job at work today, It's a wood splitter, the joker snapped the end off it so I had to make a new one, The screw was machined with a 12mm ballnose end mill using the rotary axis to turn the job as the cutter moved longitudinal to the rotary axis.

268150268151268153268155268157268158

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[husaberg]

Holey Shit Glen.

I just stumbled across your Thread i was looking for you name as someone asked about MTB rear brakes.
All i can say is WOW.

On my thread it has some stuff about the Tramonta That Russell Savoy (RS developments) did it has the Plenum size etc.

I have posted this before but for those that missed it.
I haven't read all your thread so it may have been discussed already?

One thing i would add is if you are going to cram in 200CC performance it needs to be able to rid it self of the gasses as well as a 200cc bike would.
So larger ex Valve and duration.Tan the STD Lifin or what ever it is.


Yes I think you are right and as Yow Ling below says I probably wont be able to run a intercooler through a draw through system because of fuel dropout issues. I might have to design a water to air system that makes sure there is not possibility of fuel drop out.
Yep, completely overlooked that issues.
I guess it's back to solid works to design a water to air style that incorporates the plenum and pop-off valve into it.

I'll post what I come up with and see what you all think.

Simpliest Water to air intercooler is (knicked off the Autospeed site) an Marine oil cooler heat exchanger.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1127/112712_2lo.jpg

Item: Heat exchanger cores
Use: Water/air intercooler
Notes: Rare but a worthy pick-up. Jacket the outside of the tube stack and weld on fittings. Run water around outside of tubes and intake air through tubes. Suitable for smaller turbo cars.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1127/112712_5lo.jpg

Item: Fisher and Paykel washing machine 12V water solenoid valves
Car Use: On/off valve for water injection, on/off for pressurised intercooler water spray, potentially able to be pulsed at varying duty cycles.
Notes: Most washing machine solenoid valves use mains power (eg 240V) and won’t operate on 12V DC, so you need the Fisher and Paykel ones. They have ‘12V’ written on them (arrow).
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Complete-Guide-to-Intercooling-Part-2-/A_107760/article.html

Air to Air is far cheaper though plus lighter

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=581
http://www.injectacarb.com.au/fuel-pressure-regulator-malpassi-rising-rate-p-91.html?osCsid=7f20a539b789
http://www.turbogemini.com/Blow%20Through%20FPR.htm


Different superchargers
http://www.axialflow.com/index.htm


cv carb mods
http://www.turbo-bike.net/Pressurize%20carbs.htm
http://www.streettuned.com.au/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1494
http://unclebobsturbos.com/newbie.html

building a small efi
http://feralinjection.com/cbr/cbr2.html
http://www.megasquirt.info/
http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/fuelsystem.htm

Water injection
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Water-Injection/A_107970/article.html

The fang
http://www.thefang.co.uk/news2008.htm

Elsberg tuning home of the supercharged 50 and lots of intersting stuff.
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/the%20bikes.html#Building a supercharged Honda engine

Intercoolers
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1931/article.html

Small turbo
http://forums.evolutionm.net/other-cars/265923-i-can-turbocharge-anything-6.html
http://www.vespalabs.org/User:Internetscooter/Scooters/Dry_Lake_Racer/2011_Upgrades/IHI_RB31_Turbo_Charger


All sorts of technical stuff
http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-c.htm
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Supercharger-Steal-Part-One/A_110294/article.html

udder stuff
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Nitrous-Fuel-Controller-Thats-Also-a-Lot-More/A_2546/article.html
http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/turbo_fi_basics.htm
http://not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml
http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=492361027



Intakehttp://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-engine5.htm
The intake port’s cross-sectional area is no longer the limiting factor in power production, as is frequently true in engines in a low state of tune or development. Porting as it refers to changes in port shape (rather than mere enlargement) still provides a benefit by reducing parasitic pumping loss during the intake stroke. Intake port size may be kept as original, unless a known and proven modification to the shape (rather than the size) can be performed. Twin cylinder engines may use heads with parallel intake ports such as the TR6 to make the manifold design more compact.
The std. intake port & valve are normally larger than the exhaust port & valve, as the mechanical pressure of the rising piston is more efficient at expelling exhaust gas than the vacuum of the descending piston is at drawing fresh mixture in. If the motor was originally well designed for normally aspirated use, the relative efficiency of flow between the two sides will be nearly equal, in fact differences in cam timing between intake and exhaust frequently have as their purpose to adjust any disparity. This relative flow balance between the intake and exhaust sides is affected by supercharger use: the intake is now much more efficient.

Exhaust
For best effect the entire exhaust system should be re-designed towards a larger displacement motor, requiring more flow from every component. The exhaust system (cam, tappet shape, rocker ratio, valve size, port size & pipe size) is not especially sensitive to the boost itself, but only to the increase in exhaust gas flow, regardless of the source. The “target size” of the exhaust components is roughly based on the amount of boost to be used. For example: a 750cc motor developing 50 HP in normally aspirated tune may develop 75 HP on boost, and should have an exhaust system suitable to (obviously) 75 HP, more like a 1000cc motor. This is especially true since boost adds torque throughout the rpm range, not just peak power. The motor becomes more like a milder but bigger motor, rather than a more powerful “race” version of the same size motor.
The std. exhaust valve size should be increased by between .040” and .060” (1.0mm-1.5mm). The new area (not diameter) should be between 75 & 80% of the intake valve area. In many cases only a slight increase is possible using the original cast-in seat insert but this should still be done.
A large engine and high boost may use a valve as large as 3/16” (4.75mm) oversize. In a serious (high boost) motor, this may require a reduction in the choice of intake valve size as a compromise, since some clearance between the valves is needed not only to prevent clash in operation, but for added cooling of the head casting between the seats. In some cases, an older but interchangable head casting of the same type is a good choice since its intake valves may be smaller (e.g., a 6T head instead of a TR6 head).
For serious high boost applications consideration should be made to replacing the exhaust seat with a larger custom or adapted seat insert to permit a valve as large as 90% of the intake valve area to be fitted. The size will still be limited by the point where the seats almost touch as described.
The exhaust valve head diameter sizes listed below are not requirements but improvements. An engine with insufficient exhaust valve area will not produce as much power due to pumping loss. If you cannot or will not increase the exhaust:intake flow proportion by using larger exhaust valves, most of the improvement can be obtained by changes to the cam timing but this is not as effective.

5 psi Boost: Exhaust = 75% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.73” 1.69” 1.65” 1.60” 1.56” 1.52” 1.47” 1.43” 1.39” 1.34” 1.30” 1.26” 1.21” 1.17” 1.13” 1.08” 1.04”

10 psi Boost: Exhaust = 80% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.79” 1.74” 1.70” 1.65” 1.61” 1.57” 1.52” 1.48” 1.43” 1.39” 1.34” 1.30” 1.25” 1.21” 1.16” 1.12” 1.07”

15 psi Boost: Exhaust = 85% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.84” 1.80” 1.75” 1.71” 1.66” 1.61” 1.57” 1.52” 1.48” 1.43” 1.38” 1.34” 1.29” 1.24” 1.20” 1.15” 1.11”

20 psi Boost: Exhaust = 90% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.76” 1.71” 1.66” 1.61” 1.57” 1.52” 1.47” 1.42” 1.38” 1.33” 1.28” 1.23” 1.19” 1.14”

The exhaust seat should be 30° (instead of 45°), although this requires a substantial oversize. A 30° seat increases low-lift flow, and the added release of exhaust as the valve just cracks open is very helpful. A 30° seat requires a new valve with a head diameter larger than the original. The amount to be added to the existing valve diameter is not proportionate to the valve size but to the seat width. Why not use a 30° seat on the intake as well? Because intake efficiency is more effectively supplied by boost, and also that the shallow seat will increase overlap effects, which we do not want.
The exhaust valve face width and seat width should be increased somewhat to allow greater heat transfer. I suggest .080” as a minimum. Some additional stem-to-guide clearance may be needed, .001” or so.
After the seats have been cut, the exhaust bowl area should be increased to match the new seat area. In some cases, the edge of the combustion chamber nearest the valve head should be moved back a bit (towards the edge of the bore) to prevent shrouding the valve. The bore (in the cylinder) may also benefit from a notch to permit flow around the valve head - be careful not to intrude into the ring path.
The exhaust port ID should be enlarged proportionate to the new valve size, as practical. In many engines this will seriously weaken the port stub, so use caution. Do not attempt to match the port ID to the primary pipe ID, or even blend or taper the transition area. The change in shape between the port and pipe should be abrupt.

Exhaust Pipe
The diameter of the primary exhaust pipe should be increased, usually by 1/8” to 1/4”, even if the actual port cannot be made larger. The 1-3/4” “TT” (tavern tosser) pipes that didn’t work on the 650cc NA motor are now a good choice for supercharged use. Under no circumstances should any form of internal baffle be inserted. If you need a muffler, find a good one with capacity sized to the new power level rather than the displacement, as described above. An RPM-sensitive tuned primary length will still work but has less effect since both ports are under positive pressure.
http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/cam-gears-2.jpg
Cams
Cams for boosted engines should generally be milder in duration than for normally aspirated engines designed for high peak power. Extended timing is no longer needed to produce peak power, and will interfere with boosted operation. The requirements for positive displacement and centrifugal superchargers differ here.
Adjustments to the intake:exhaust flow balance are frequently made by extending the cam timing on the side with lesser efficiency. Since boost only improves the flow of the intake system, any flow bias change that cannot or has not been made through increased exhaust efficiency (as described above) requires a cam choice with added




weight to exhaust duration, generally 10° more than the intake duration. This frequently means that intake duration is reduced (from normally aspirated) by 10 or 20°, and exhaust duration is reduced by 0 to 10°. E.g., 300° intake & 300° exhaust becomes 280° intake & 290° exhaust.
The intake valve opening point should be retarded (closer to TDC) to reduce overlap. The intake valve closing point should be advanced (closer to BDC), since the static compression ratio will be lower. This preserves cranking compression, and is not as useful for peak power as boost pressure. The result is a shorter intake duration.
The exhaust valve opening and closing points are especially sensitive. The exhaust opening point determines how much of the work cycle is used as energy, the remainder being wasted as heat through the open valve. A supercharged engine develops a higher percentage of its useful work later in the cycle (compared o a high-compression normally aspirated engine), and opening the valve early is throwing away an advantage.
However, keeping the valve closed too long (i.e., closer to BDC) wastes power by requiring additional effort ABDC to expel the remaining exhaust gas.
The opening point is, therefore, a delicate balance, where as the opening point is delayed more of the power is transferred to the crankshaft, but part of it is needed to “push out” the remaining gas. Where this balance point tips depends largely on exhaust valve size. A large exhaust valve allows late opening because a higher volume of gas is released immediately without the need for a longer time interval. If the valve size is not sufficient, the valve must open earlier.
To summarize: exhaust improvements required, in order of preference:
1. larger exhaust valve
2. higher ratio exhaust rocker arm
3. earlier exhaust valve opening.

On engines with separate intake cams (A.J.S., Matchless, Triumph and Royal Enfield twins, Norton, Matchless & AJS singles, BSA “B” & “M” series singles &c.) the original intake cam should be evaluated, possibly at different timing locations, before being replaced. The Harley-Davidson 4-cam engines (45, K, Sportster, UL, &c.) have separate intake and exhaust cams, but cannot be re-timed since the cams are integral with their gears.
The preferred lobe separation angle (intake to exhaust centerlines) is generally wider than used in performance applications, usually between 112-118°.

Cam Terms and Symbols
Term Before top dead center After top dead center Before bottom dead center After bottom dead center
Symbol BTDC ATDC BBDC ABDC
Term Intake valve opens Intake valve closes Exhaust valve opens Exhaust valve closes
Symbol IO, IVO IC, IVC XO, EO, EVO XC, EC, EVC
Term Intake lobe centerline Exhaust lobe centerline Lobe separation angle
Symbol ICL XCL, ECL LSA, LCA

Value Formula Example, using 34-70, 74-26 timing
Intake duration IO + IC + 180° 34 + 70 + 180 = 284°
Exhaust duration XC + XO + 180° 74 + 26 + 180 = 280°
Overlap IO + XC 34 + 26 = 60°
Intake centerline (IC - IO) ÷ 2 + 90° ATDC 70 - 34 = 36; 36 ÷ 2 = 18; 18 + 90 = 108°
Exhaust centerline (XO - XC) ÷ 2 + 90° BTDC 74 - 26 = 48; 48 ÷ 2 = 24; 24 + 90 = 114°
Lobe separation angle (ICL + XCL) ÷ 2 108 + 114 = 222; 222 ÷ 2 = 111°
http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/cam-event_graph2.jpg Please note that overlap may be evenly disposed around TDC (e.g., IO = XC), but this is not always true. The LSA is frequently different from where the cam is “timed in”. There is no magic figure for any of these values, only tendencies. The LSA is used as a control to prevent overlap from becoming too large when the duration of the intake,




exhaust, or both lobes are extended. Under ideal conditions, boost pressure will “flush” exhaust gas from the chamber during the overlap period, but this is sensitive to RPM and careful tuning and is not present at all speeds. Click the picture for a larger view. Engines with mild cams may work best with the original LSA. On engines with individual cams for intake and exhaust this can be done by re-timing at least one cam. On engines with both intake and exhaust lobes on a single camshaft such as BSA and Norton twins (including Norton-based Matchless), BSA “C” series singles, triples, and Harley-Davidson big twins, as well as other engine which do not readily permit re-timing individual cams LSA is a fixed value requiring a new cam.
In a Triumph twin engine with the original cams consider slightly biasing the event towards the exhaust side by using “R” radius tappets on the exhaust cams only, and std. radius tappets on the intake cams. Tappet radius can be used to make fine adjustments to any cam event.

The exhaust event should also be sped up. This is difficult in most motorcycle engines, but where possible a higher ratio rocker arm should be used on the exhaust valves only. Some engines can use offset rocker buttons for the same effect.

Valve springs
The valve spring tension, both when the valves are seated and open, is normally a function of maximum engine speed, valve train component weight, and the rate at which the cam opens and closes the valves. To this must be added some compensation for the fact that, under boost, intake charge pressure will oppose the intake valve’s closing. Vizard suggests that a useful figure is 75% of the intake valve area (OD × .7854) multiplied by the maximum boost pressure. E.g., a 1.50” intake valve has an area of 1.767”. With 10 psi boost, the figure becomes 17.7 lbs.; 75% of this is roughly 13 lbs. Add this amount to the seated pressure.

Bummer yours is SOHC but there is the cam timing here for most of the available stuff to suit the engine.
http://www.x386.net/TTR/tech/cam2.html

I will chuck in some Stuff from a guy who build blown Street motors and some stuff that include some oddball blower stuff

[Grumph]

Exhaust - Big bore, short, and most definitely not a tuned length....any attempt at a tuned length is a waste of time as there are effectively no reverse pulses at all in a blown system.
Exhaust valve - leave it stock with a wider seat than stock to at least try & get rid of some heat....
Cam overlap. I quoted the Alfa 158/159 way back. 1.5liter straight eight making around 480bhp on alky late '40's early 50's.
It used a LOT of overlap - they called it the 5th stroke - which gave a blow through period which cooled the head and valves off significantly. The slightly later BRM also used plenty of overlap. Those two were effectively the last real developments of mechanically blown F1 motors. Drag V8's - Garlits I've seen quoted as continually asking for more cam duration...on his big 2V hemis he'd worked out that short duration and overlap weren't the way to go.
Personally, I was involved with a blown TQ which really came to life when I talked them into a better cam....they'd read and believed the crap about short cams....
Oh, while I think about it - you will probably need a better inlet valve spring...to hold it shut against boost. Exhaust won't be a problem, the valve will melt before the springs give trouble.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well temptation got the better of me and I couldn't help but fire it up now that all the electronics have been taken care of. Started pretty easy I thought and runs good, well for a first start, no missing or farting.

Glad I did as has given me a bit more motovation to get it finished

Also I'm on the look out for a RGV250 tank VJ21 if anyone knows of one, mine has had a hard life and I don't want the rusty shit inside making a mess of the injection system. I was thinking I may just cut the bottom out and run a 2L plastic tank under it.

So I got the belt pulleys machined up tonight, still have to broach the charger pulley but they have come out well. I am running a 4PK poly vee belt which is 15mm wide with 4 vee's. The pulley is 60mm diameter and the charger is running 1:1 with the motor. In theory is should make 15psi at that.

Here's a shit house video of the startup but it's cool to hear one of the first non factory fuel injected bucket startup.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5D8BPeAz7M&feature=youtu.be

And a couple of pictures of the pulleys

268318268319

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[bucketracer]

Super duper congrats Bucket History X 2, fuel injected and supercharged.

[Buddha#81]

shit man get a haircut!

[k14]

shit man get a haircut!
Beat me to it!

[Sketchy_Racer]

shit man get a haircut!


Beat me to it!

Fark off, it's winter and the afro keeps me warm

[Brian d marge]

Super duper congrats Bucket History X 2, fuel injected and supercharged.

plus one on that , well done for seeing it through !

Stephen

ps must spread the luv ..etc

[Skunk]

Fark off, it's winter and the afro keeps me warm

Where's ya side burns gone Guy Martin?

[speights_bud]

Good stuff bro, are you going to trepan (sp?) or drill out the belt pulleys to reduce weight? would look choice too

[Grumph]

Well done.

Can't pick from the small pics but I assume you've trimmed the peaks on the pulleys...

I'd still like to know the std cam timing figures for the longshit.

A quick scan of all the bumf Husaberg added to his post doesn't make me want to go back and change mine. i know what I have recommended will work.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

Super duper congrats Bucket History X 2, fuel injected and supercharged.

Cheers, still a long way to go before it is anything good, but it goes at least


plus one on that , well done for seeing it through !

Stephen

ps must spread the luv ..etc

Thanks mate.


Good stuff bro, are you going to trepan (sp?) or drill out the belt pulleys to reduce weight? would look choice too

Yeah mate I'll carve them out gotta make em look cool!


Well done.

Can't pick from the small pics but I assume you've trimmed the peaks on the pulleys...

I'd still like to know the std cam timing figures for the longshit.

A quick scan of all the bumf Husaberg added to his post doesn't make me want to go back and change mine. i know what I have recommended will work.....

Yep the pulleys are relieved to stop any chance of the belt getting damaged by the peaks.

I'll have a measure up on the weekend and let you know what the stock cam profile is. There are certainly a lot of arguments towards different cam timing and their reasoning, but if what you have tried works, then all the theory in the world doesn't mean shit if it doesn't work in the real world. I am probably going to experiment with the cam profiles mainly because it interests me and to see what gains are found where.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[husaberg]

Very Nice Glen Very nice.
are you sure the project should Be on KB cause it look like you are intending on getting it finished:corn::bye:

The last link gave a lot of the Honda style timings but not the one sketchy has shame
This is the What fits what page http://www.dratv.com/encoon.html

I still stand by the statement. its all right cramming the mixture in but it still has to have the time to leave the cylinder.
ie you can fill the pint Glass with another pint until how have got rid of all the first pint.

I found the Turbo Commando that the CHCH guy did photocopy only sorry.

[Grumph]

Okay, Hus, nothing I posted is in direct conflict with that lot....I'm advocating getting better exhaust flow with a better cam rather than using oversize exhaust valve. That lot reads like the author has a lot of sprinting experience - eg the Triumph info which is typical of the Brit sprint scene. Incidentally, I didn't see any reference to fuels though I didn't open any of the other attatchments. When using Methanol you must go to a higher percentage of exhaust flow vs the inlet anyway as the cooler/denser end gases flow slower.
This project is on petrol and end gas speed will be high. Yes, valve size is small. Without looking at the chink head i don't know if there's enough material spporting the seat ring to allow a larger valve safely - it WILL get f'n hot - particularly as it's horizontal. Easier and safer IMO to get the effect wanted with the cam.
Having been involved on the edges of a blown Triumph TQ - National Champ too - I disagree with some of the articles statements re those motors too....
Maybe I am just a grump but it's easy to put stuff up on the net if you don't have to back it up - not you Hus, the author.
I've been involved directly and indirectly with 3 blown TQ's and one roadrace bike plus several cars....all bar the roadrace bike were successful and the bike made the power but couldn't be made reliably raceable.

[F5 Dave]

Well you have heaps of time till Sunday to get it sorted & get out to Kaitoke. Sweet as bro.

[husaberg]

Okay, Hus, nothing I posted is in direct conflict with that lot....I'm advocating getting better exhaust flow with a better cam rather than using oversize exhaust valve. That lot reads like the author has a lot of sprinting experience - eg the Triumph info which is typical of the Brit sprint scene. Incidentally, I didn't see any reference to fuels though I didn't open any of the other attatchments. When using Methanol you must go to a higher percentage of exhaust flow vs the inlet anyway as the cooler/denser end gases flow slower.
This project is on petrol and end gas speed will be high. Yes, valve size is small. Without looking at the chink head i don't know if there's enough material spporting the seat ring to allow a larger valve safely - it WILL get f'n hot - particularly as it's horizontal. Easier and safer IMO to get the effect wanted with the cam.
Having been involved on the edges of a blown Triumph TQ - National Champ too - I disagree with some of the articles statements re those motors too....
Maybe I am just a grump but it's easy to put stuff up on the net if you don't have to back it up - not you Hus, the author.
I've been involved directly and indirectly with 3 blown TQ's and one roadrace bike plus several cars....all bar the roadrace bike were successful and the bike made the power but couldn't be made reliably raceable.

Monster Head 23mm and 27mm normally on the larger than 120's but not all Non Kawa based Chinky's
<img src="http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/dratv_2221_217991956" width="340px"/>
Most of the 110's more like this
<img src="http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/dratv_2225_155232692" width="340px"/>

A bit of a troll through here might give some idea of OE options for valves that may be more durable.
http://www.tkrj.co.jp/product/m-engine-valve.html

Almost forgot Honda are now producing a CRF110 so the parts quality may be higher.
She may be an oddball though.
http://www.motorcycle.com/specs/sites/mot/images/data/normal/2013_Honda_CRF_110F.jpg
Bore (mm/in) 50mm
Stroke (mm/in) 55.6mm
Displacement (cc/ci) 110cc
Compression Ratio 9.0:1

[Sketchy_Racer]

My valves are 23 and 27 but can't really go any bigger, already had to relieve around the barrel for the intake valve (Not much thankfully)

The exhaust port tract is pretty short which is good to stop the exhaust heating the head.

[richban]

Nice work on all of this Mate. Will be very interested in having a look at that injection system. Might be good for the FXR one day.

[Grumph]

When you do have exhaust valve trouble - and i'm picking you will - don't faff about with OE valves. $50 gets you a top quality Ferrea stainless valve blank with 6mm stem. Either hone the OE guide or make and fit a bronze guide to suit. The bigger stem - I'm assuming the chinky is 5.0 or 5.5mm - will help with heat transfer without impeding flow to any great extent.
You never know, Richban may put in a good word with his bro to get you a discount....

[richban]

When you do have exhaust valve trouble - and i'm picking you will - don't faff about with OE valves. $50 gets you a top quality Ferrea stainless valve blank with 6mm stem. Either hone the OE guide or make and fit a bronze guide to suit. The bigger stem - I'm assuming the chinky is 5.0 or 5.5mm - will help with heat transfer without impeding flow to any great extent.
You never know, Richban may put in a good word with his bro to get you a discount....

Already on the case if need be. Cam, valves whatever. I have a job for Glen so back scratching all round. We noticed on the FXR that the exhaust valve / seat was getting cooked. Looks like it wants more advance in the ignition. I guess it will be a balance act with the supercharged engine as well. Keeping enough of the bang in the cylinder to make the power verses getting it out and away from the valve to not eat the seats / valves. Kev says no overlap for the single.

[husaberg]

When you do have exhaust valve trouble - and i'm picking you will - don't faff about with OE valves. $50 gets you a top quality Ferrea stainless valve blank with 6mm stem. Either hone the OE guide or make and fit a bronze guide to suit. The bigger stem - I'm assuming the chinky is 5.0 or 5.5mm - will help with heat transfer without impeding flow to any great extent.
You never know, Richban may put in a good word with his bro to get you a discount....

Good points mmm.. the cylinder studs will be pretty small too arn't they?


Already on the case if need be. Cam, valves whatever. I have a job for Glen so back scratching all round. We noticed on the FXR that the exhaust valve / seat was getting cooked. Looks like it wants more advance in the ignition. I guess it will be a balance act with the supercharged engine as well. Keeping enough of the bang in the cylinder to make the power verses getting it out and away from the valve to not eat the seats / valves. Kev says no overlap for the single.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Nice work on all of this Mate. Will be very interested in having a look at that injection system. Might be good for the FXR one day.

Yeah mate, it's looking promising so far, but It's along way from being proven as an performance option. I have been surprised by the ease of integration on the kit onto my bike as it is a generic kit.


When you do have exhaust valve trouble - and i'm picking you will - don't faff about with OE valves. $50 gets you a top quality Ferrea stainless valve blank with 6mm stem. Either hone the OE guide or make and fit a bronze guide to suit. The bigger stem - I'm assuming the chinky is 5.0 or 5.5mm - will help with heat transfer without impeding flow to any great extent.
You never know, Richban may put in a good word with his bro to get you a discount....

Sweet I'll keep that in mind, I think we should start taking bets as to what will fail first, I recon the first point of failure will be the head lifting of the barrel, It has dowels in it but I think the studs will stretch at high cylinder pressure. We'll see.



Already on the case if need be. Cam, valves whatever. I have a job for Glen so back scratching all round. We noticed on the FXR that the exhaust valve / seat was getting cooked. Looks like it wants more advance in the ignition. I guess it will be a balance act with the supercharged engine as well. Keeping enough of the bang in the cylinder to make the power verses getting it out and away from the valve to not eat the seats / valves. Kev says no overlap for the single.

Yeah mate, once I get the motor running and the mechanics of it all sorted out I'll start hunting some HP. Reminds me, let me know when you want that Swingarm sorted.

-Sketchy

[richban]

Yeah mate, it's looking promising so far, but It's along way from being proven as an performance option. I have been surprised by the ease of integration on the kit onto my bike as it is a generic kit.

Yeah and for the money you just can go wrong. Just for all the electrics that a steel. Cost less than my FCR. I would probably go for a wide band gas sensor on mine with the Avgas and all. I spoz you can get sensors that will last quite a while on avgas these days. Yeah swing arm next week maybe. Also for the people that know about electric voodoo. Could you run a system like this without a battery. Capacitors or some other such thing.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah and for the money you just can go wrong. Just for all the electrics that a steel. Cost less than my FCR. I would probably go for a wide band gas sensor on mine with the Avgas and all. I spoz you can get sensors that will last quite a while on avgas these days. Yeah swing arm next week maybe. Also for the people that know about electric voodoo. Could you run a system like this without a battery. Capacitors or some other such thing.

Yeah if you had a charging circuit with a reg/rectifier you could run without a battery, Might just need to plug into something to fire it so the fuel pump can presurise the system.

As for the fuel pump it's the only part that I am not really that happy with and I can see it giving greif so I may get a late model intank fuel pump so it is all contained and the only hose I have is from the tank to the injector.

[Kickaha]

so I may get a late model intank fuel pump so it is all contained and the only hose I have is from the tank to the injector.

I might have one I can send you, I will check and let you know

[Sketchy_Racer]

I might have one I can send you, I will check and let you know

Awesome thanks mate.

Got a bit more done today, finished the plenum and trumpets etc, just need to get it welded up now. The trumpets are a bit of a dick design, but I want to be able to modify them so they bolt onto the plenum. I have also reviewed my plenum volume and it is now only 1000cc as I decided that the 1500cc may be to large for the little 100cc motor.

Once the plenum is welded all that leaves is the exhaust and blow off valve to sort and put the belt on the supercharger, oh and maybe improve the supercharge mount a little bit. Getting close.

268413268414

[Kickaha]

Ok got one out of a 03 R1, it measures about 150mm tall not including the pipes out the bottom and about 100mm diameter

[Sketchy_Racer]

Ok got one out of a 03 R1, it measures about 150mm tall not including the pipes out the bottom and about 100mm diameter

How much ya want for it? I'll just do some googling to see what the stock fuel pressure regulator is on it.

[Kickaha]

How much ya want for it?

I get a ride on the supercharged bike if we're ever at the same track on the same day

[Drew]

I get a ride on the supercharged bike if we're ever at the same track on the same day

Fuck man, he's young and not rich, you could do him a decent deal at least!

[Kickaha]

Fuck man, he's young and not rich, you could do him a decent deal at least!

Ok he can suck my cock as well, that's not to gay is it?

[Drew]

Ok he can suck my cock as well, that's not to gay is it?Shit no!

It's only gay if your balls touch.

[ducatilover]

Shit no!

It's only gay if your balls touch.
That's not cricket at all

[Tard]

Hey Sketchy,

No.1 Build looks awesome!

Can't wait to see this up and running at Kaitoke soon?

Seems any pitbike engine just became illegal for bucket racing?


The short answer is no!!!

These are buit as a motorcross machine and as pathetically slow as they are,They are still outside the rules,If we let the chinese MX bikes in then we can't really stop the Japanese ones either.

Graeme Billington
Roadrace commissioner
Motorcycling NZ.

Might just be me, but I'm confusssssssed? :scratch: . Does a "pathetically slow" chinese pitbike engine qualify as a "competition engine" ?

[Drew]

It might surprise you to know, that unless Billy gets that put in the rules ( which is not as easy as it sounds), his interpretation of what that bike and more is means little or nothing at all. At least until it's formally looked into.

[jasonu]

Might just be me, but I'm confusssssssed? :scratch: . Does a "pathetically slow" chinese pitbike engine qualify as a "competition engine" ?

The same way the 'pathetically slow' CRT bikes qualify as MotoGP bikes.

[Drew]

The same way the 'pathetically slow' CRT bikes qualify as MotoGP bikes.

They are built as competition bikes though at least. The pit bike motor is "derived from non competition motorcycles".

[jasonu]

They are built as competition bikes though at least. The pit bike motor is "derived from non competition motorcycles".

Depends on who you ask. The pitbike thing was hugely competitive over here a few years ago. (and apparently with a quick google search still is)
http://www.pitsterpro.com/
http://www.bbrmotorsports.com/News/PressRelease/Content/MiniMadness5/MiniMadness5.htm
http://www.solomonracing.net/pit%20bike.html
The list goes on.

[Ocean1]

Might just be me, but I'm confusssssssed? :scratch: . Does a "pathetically slow" chinese pitbike engine qualify as a "competition engine" ?

I got confused when people actually in a competitive event said you're not allowed to use competition bits.

[Henk]

I got confused when people actually in a competitive event said you're not allowed to use competition bits.

I think the idea was to prevent an RS framed KX100 being the entry level competitive bike.

[Drew]

Depends on who you ask. The pitbike thing was hugely competitive over here a few years ago. (and apparently with a quick google search still is)
http://www.pitsterpro.com/
http://www.bbrmotorsports.com/News/PressRelease/Content/MiniMadness5/MiniMadness5.htm
http://www.solomonracing.net/pit bike.html
The list goes on.

If I take a lawn mower and start a race class for it, that is not a racing machine, it's a machine that gets raced.

There are manufacturers assembling those motors from off the shelf parts and flogging them as race motors, but it aint what they were built as or for.

It's all moot anyway. Someone protest them and see what happens.

That's how I see it, and my experience on a bucket means fuck all as to my reading comprehension.

[Ocean1]

I think the idea was to prevent an RS framed KX100 being the entry level competitive bike.

Yeah, I know. But from what I understand there's nothing stopping me making an RS frame and a KX100 and racing it, eh?

[Drew]

Yeah, I know. But from what I understand there's nothing stopping me making an RS frame and a KX100 and racing it, eh?Buy the RS frame, they're open. Build the motor from scratch and make the parts yourself, and you can use a KX as well. You're just not allowed to buy it.

[crazy man]

Hey Sketchy,

No.1 Build looks awesome!

Can't wait to see this up and running at Kaitoke soon?

Seems any pitbike engine just became illegal for bucket racing?



Might just be me, but I'm confusssssssed? :scratch: . Does a "pathetically slow" chinese pitbike engine qualify as a "competition engine" ?just say its a engine out of a posty bike. same thing l think

[Fozzzy]

Depends on who you ask. The pitbike thing was hugely competitive over here a few years ago. (and apparently with a quick google search still is)
http://www.pitsterpro.com/
http://www.bbrmotorsports.com/News/PressRelease/Content/MiniMadness5/MiniMadness5.htm
http://www.solomonracing.net/pit%20bike.html
The list goes on.

Im sure Suzuki and Honda etc make competition motorcycles too

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well, if someone has a problem with my 2 valve piece of crap they can feel free to lodge a protest, given that I don't race it at MNZ events, MNZ may not have any interest in it :)

However after tonights failure no one will protest as I can't get the damn thing to run. For some reason the pickup coil has shit itself and I have lost all spark!

Was gutted as I wanted to fire it up with the supercharger running and see the first signs of boost!

[Grumph]

Well, if someone has a problem with my 2 valve piece of crap they can feel free to lodge a protest, given that I don't race it at MNZ events, MNZ may not have any interest in it :)

However after tonights failure no one will protest as I can't get the damn thing to run. For some reason the pickup coil has shit itself and I have lost all spark!

Was gutted as I wanted to fire it up with the supercharger running and see the first signs of boost!

It's trying to tell you something....cue ominous music....

If it does run decently you will sooner or later run it at an MNZ permited meeting - I don't see a problem unless you find it has to use meth to avoid becoming a pool of molten alloy....

[TZ350]

Build the motor from scratch and make the parts yourself, you can use a KX ''design'' as well. You're just not allowed to buy it.

You're not allowed to buy it, but you can make any part or modification yourself, pretty much sums it up for Buckets.

Looking at Sketchys supercharged 100, its clear its a class where engineering Skill and inventiveness trumps Fat wallet, I like it.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well after a royal dick-of-the-day moment, the superbucket finally runs with a supercharger.

As it would turn out, when you take the trigger wheel off the flywheel to fit the belt it is, in fact, possible to put it back on 180 degrees out. So after pulling apart the loom and checking a million things we're back in business. I also had a problem with no spark as well, that just turned out that my cable came loose when I was uploading a calibration file so the ECU went blank.

So far I have had it running for around 10 minutes and reached a maximum RPM of 10,200 which is plenty for a free rev, considering the thing is only supposed to do 12k under load on the limiter. The boost gauge is showing 7-8 PSI from around 8000 RPM which is ok. It was planned that It would be making at least 10PSI by then with a peak of 14 at max rpm. So either my supercharger efficiency is not has high as planned or the volumetric efficiency of the motor is better than planned. I will start the tuning at this and see how we go, If I need to I can always chuck a smaller pulley on the charger and see how it goes.

Less talk more videos!


http://youtu.be/uX76JacFaAY

[husaberg]

Impressive...............
No I'm not meaning the haircut either........

[bogan]

Very nice :woohoo:

[gav]

Wow! Awesome work Glen, congrats!!

[NordieBoy]

Wonder how a Conley Stinger 609 would go in a bucket?

Apart from sounding awesome :Punk:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qqp99nIjbWw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[crazy man]

well done! now all l need it broad band to watch it )-:

[Ocean1]

Very nice mate.

Didn't sound too hesitant, or is that just because I didn't see when you tweaked the throttle? I guess you'd expect a little lag with that comparably high volume in the intercooler. Still, as you say it matters not, as long as when the boogie arrives it's there in spades.

[Fozzzy]

What fuel injecton kit did you use?

[gav]

What fuel injecton kit did you use?
Have you read the whole thread?

[Fozzzy]

Have you read the whole thread?

Nope got to page 3 and figured it was easier to ask

[ducatilover]

:Punk: That's Biblical epic winning.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Thanks guys, I'm not going to lie I was pretty stoaked to see boost register on the gauge and really happy to have such a good baseline tune to start from, I really was expecting it to be complete rubbish to start with but so far so good.

As for the EFI - It is an ecotrons (google it) small engine efi kit. They are sold out of america but are made in china (and shipped directly from there)

It cost me $660 landed and comes with everything you need including the O2 sensor.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Very nice mate.

Didn't sound too hesitant, or is that just because I didn't see when you tweaked the throttle? I guess you'd expect a little lag with that comparably high volume in the intercooler. Still, as you say it matters not, as long as when the boogie arrives it's there in spades.

Yeah it is a little hard to explain, when using throttle opening similar to exit a corner it is extremely responsive but if you give a 0-100% throttle input there is a small delay. It doesn't bog like a carb would but rather just a small delay from when you hit the throttle open and when you get a rev.

[Ocean1]

Yeah it is a little hard to explain, when using throttle opening similar to exit a corner it is extremely responsive but if you give a 0-100% throttle input there is a small delay. It doesn't bog like a carb would but rather just a small delay from when you hit the throttle open and when you get a rev.

Yeah, you can possibly cut some of that with some work around the intercooler position and ducting volumes but I think it's characteristic of that set-up. If you get up around 11-12psi I believe you'll be making enough that you can live with it, eh?

[jonbuoy]

Does your AFR weaken with the lag?

[Grumph]

Well Done - like Crazyman, all I need now is broadband to see it....

I'm going to argue that you shouldn't have any lag...we did initially too but simply dialled up the accelerator pump stroke on the big twin choke Dellorto we used. Your setup injecting close to the head should be capable of even better response.
Richen the bugger up off idle and see what happens.

Congrats - carry on.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Does your AFR weaken with the lag?

Wouldn't have a clue, no exhaust system means no O2 sensor at the moment. But one would imagine so.


Well Done - like Crazyman, all I need now is broadband to see it....

I'm going to argue that you shouldn't have any lag...we did initially too but simply dialled up the accelerator pump stroke on the big twin choke Dellorto we used. Your setup injecting close to the head should be capable of even better response.
Richen the bugger up off idle and see what happens.

Congrats - carry on.

Cheers mate.

Yeah I'm not going to worry about it right at the moment, i'll wait until it has an exhaust system and I get everything dialed in.

[richban]

Super cool Glen. As you say for a chuck it in and start it up it is working very well. Might be time for that cam now. Make it nice a quite so that nice little super charger sound can come through. You won't be able to sneak up on me with that thing. 100 out of 10. Super impressed. Shall I start to sleeve down and de stroke my other FXR engine yet.

[speedpro]

Shall I start to sleeve down and de stroke my other FXR engine yet.

You know you should be doing it anyway.

[andrew a]

Well done Glen I'm super impresed with your work. Having started bucket racing on a mighty CT110 I would love to have a supercharged CT. If you google postie bike the Ausie boys do crazy stuf with them. I have seen a superchrged one but i wouldnt think it went properly. Any way good to see it going.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well done Glen I'm super impresed with your work. Having started bucket racing on a mighty CT110 I would love to have a supercharged CT. If you google postie bike the Ausie boys do crazy stuf with them. I have seen a superchrged one but i wouldnt think it went properly. Any way good to see it going.

Hey mate, yeah I did think of you and your old CT when I bought the motor. I'm stoaked to have it running it's been a huge amount of work to get it to this point! Now I need to build an exhaust and re-do some of the Devcon in the intake port and I can get on with trying to get some HP out of it.

[Sketchy_Racer]

As I was snowed in with work (as in real work, the kind that pays money) I had some jobs for the supercharger bucket done by others. I got craig from moto-metal to take care of the welding on my plenum and have to say I am really pleased with his work!

Here's a couple of pics of the mint welding job he did for me.

http://www.motometal.co.nz/

269785269786