American gun mania

[SMOKEU]

None of these people can own or put to a weapon capable of SEMI AUTOMATIC fire, a magazine, with a capacity of more than 7 rounds.


Yes they can, legally.

[Edbear]

The registry falls out of accuracy too easily/quickly as far as I know - and depending on it could be fatal anyway. i.e."It's OK, Joe Snerd only has a single action shotgun, we should be rigth" (Meanwhile Joe Snerd has accumulated an arsenal of multi shot weapons...)

Well that's virtually what what happened with Molenaar, he didn't hold a firearms licence remember - and look at his armoury and the outcome.:pinch:
And that's what would have happened if we had to register guns back then too.. :yes:

One doesn't need to look any further than KB to see how many flout the law because 'laws only apply to those who choose to obey them." This kid was never going to obey the law and obviously there were signs he wasn't a mentally sound kid to start with.

But how does one determine whether he was likely to kill his mother and go shoot up a school?

Yes, America is a gun-happy nation and gun deaths are a lot higher there than elsewhere indicating something in the nation's psyche about settling things with a gun. However, this type of incident falls outside that "norm" and is evidence of a deeper, more disturbing issue of mental health.

[Delerium]

In reply Swoop.

No full auto weapons in the hands of civilians in NZ, well actually! But that comment in context of what I was referring to USA's latest outrage, is properly sheeted home to that place not NZ.

The gun register!
Yep Canada have just thrown it out because it cost too much.
Question, what is too much?
Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones. You find that out from good intelligence and respect of the general public and an unafraid shooting fraternity who will actively monitor their own and let authorities know if a gunny is heading off the rails.
Wrong! The cops didnt even think to check that jaan mollenar had no firearms after he no longer held a license. Then to make it an even bigger cock up, they sent unarmed officers to his residence when the knew he was unstable

The trick is to make sure that gun owners are not afraid of saying something and to keep hammering away at the crims and the gun runners who think they can get away with it.
The biggest problem of re-establishing a reliable gun register would be twofold, one getting all licenced gun owners to give honest and accurate records of what they have, two making sure that the register is kept up to date.
Wont happen. The government has proven to license holders that we cant trust them. See the complete balls up with PCP air guns, a knee jerk piece of legislation due to the death of mr Snee. Instead of restricting airguns with a set power limit, all PCPs were declared firearms. So now a PCP of 6 ft/lbs energy used for olympic competition is a firearm ( and incapable of killing anybody), where as a spring cocker of 25 ft/lbs is still an air gun
So in this day and age a central gun register office, tasked with amassing the information required on computer for instant delivery of relevant information to front line Police going to possible firearms incidents would cost money, a lot probably.
The alternative? we lose damn fine men who go to a job and get shot dead for LACK OF THAT INFORMATION.
Already proven that the police dont use the current information they have access to and that the lack of enforcement of current legislation is the issue, not a lack of firearms legislation. See Canada for the the screw up that is the registry (inaccurate, over budget, and compromised on several occasions by criminal elements. Apart from that, what use does it give. Criminals WILL NOT REGISTER THEIR FIREARMS TO BE USED IN CRIME
The only other alternative is state intervention and the removal of all firearms from all legal owners.
This would achieve what?
Same as in England, take all guns off all law abiding owners and then hey presto we're gun free, no more gun crimes.
Wait a minute, whats this in the news, "ARMED MEN HOLD UP PUB" all over England.
Hang on, there's no guns left in the hands of ordinary law abiding people, oh yeah, must be the crims! oh well what can you do about them?
Hunt the barstards down using every means possible including and most importantly in my humble opinion, asking the once again law abiding gun owners to keep their eyes and ears open.
Do you have an alternative that would work, I'd be interested to hear it.
Enforce the current legislation effectively and stop with 'police interpretations'. The police already got their ass handed to them well and truely regarding the thumbhole stock debacle. If they pulled that shit in any other areas of society the screams would be loud and clear, and they would have had an evel bigger slapping.

Fully agree with the last, mental health or lack of it is an increasing problem here to.
Why, simple, our govt's have completely wiped out those places where those that truly needed to be looked after could be.
They have introduced possibly homicidal people back into communities who want to care for these people and make their lives better, but they have no idea of what it takes to look after these people and the first they know of a problem is when someone is dead because one of these poor people has flipped out and could not be restrained or made to see that there were other ways of dealing with tier demons.
ADHD, prescription tranquilizers and allergies all fall under the same umbrella for me, soft cocks who give something a name so it can be treated?
Lets get serious, a kid yells and screams at their parents, they do nothing, it goes to school and does the same there, the teachers run away with hands in the air, can't give it a bloody good old fashioned clip under the ear, it'll sue them and the govt will fire them.
Doctors treat a symptom of possible fatigue/mental break down with a tranquiliser, great until they are being swallowed a rate well past safe, and Oh yes, off the rails they go.
Agree, the US has a very different societal attitude and culture to us
Spend the time, find out why, treat that!
Allergies, how many of us suffer from them these days? Lots, why? How come? as my kids used to say to their grandmother.
Um, because they don't know what it is that is causing the problem, so it's an allergy, take these all encompassing drugs, the allergy symptoms will go away, don't worry about the side effects, hair falling out, tension headaches, suicidal tendancies.
Time is the biggest killer of people all over the civilised ( Yeah Right) world.
Take those kids with ADHD out into the country let em run till they drop, put em to bed, same tomorrow and the next day, show them some respect, discipline them as and when required, never let them see fear or capitulate, they come around, they learn to modify their own behaviour to make life including theirs better/easier.

My responses to your points in red'

[scumdog]

My responses to your points in red'


Don't blame ALL of us for the thumbhole stock eff-up - it was Joe Green who decided that.

And re Molenaar, maybe the cops didn't check that he no longer had firearms after his licence was cancelled - but how often do you expect them to check people like that? 3, 4, 5 times?

Cos he sure as hell didn't have ALL those weapons the day his licence was cancelled.

"Excuse me sir, we see your firearms licence was cancelled in 2003 but we thought we'd pop in for one more look just in case you've bought a gun or two since our last visit" Tuis moment...

[caseye]

Yes they can, legally.

Smoke, you'd know this how?

You are wrong!

An A cat licence allows you to own and operate a centre fire rifle with a fixed magazine capacity of no more than 7 rounds. if you own a semi auto rifle capable of taking a box magazine then you must only own a 7 shot magazine.
If you want to use your semi auto rifle with more than a 7 round capacity magazine then you must apply for, pay much more money for and then be accepted as an E cat owner, then and only then are you legally allowed to own and operate a semi auto rifle that can hold in any way more than 7 rounds.

People instead of picking the eyes out of what we all post what about coming up with ways that we might otherwise be able to fight this sort of Political clap trap that does no more than stir public outrage and create a way for govt's to make bans stick when banning anything has been proven to not work at all anyhow.

Scummy, I know there are flaws with a register, that it would be hard to get everyone on board but isn't the lives of our guys and girls worth the effort?
Delerium, the Police go to places like that everyday, the risk is never any different except for when the perps are going nuts, they knew he'd had his guns removed, they didn't know he'd built up an unhealthy arsenal, no one told them. Perhaps if they'd had ears in the right places they'd have heard something.

I didn't say it'd be easy, got any ideas worth getting flamed on here for?

Hole in one, cripes tell us something we don't know. Everyone who gives a damn knows that crims don't register guns. Hell they'd have to give them up.
Again, got any ideas that might float?

Current legislation, hummm, you mean as has been pointed out this week by another sniveling judge ( Yeah Right) that the Police have no right to follow anyone onto private property if they have not been noticed, great work that judge ( fuckwit) Same category as the one who recently decided that inventing a cover for an at risk police officer isn't acceptable because it offended his sensibilities as a judge, he wasn't told of it because it had happened under the jurisdiction of another judge.
Nett result 31 criminals walk, at least one Police officers life is most definitely at risk, their career gone and we're left with a bill for cleaning up the P labs and the kids who smoke this shit.
If you don't like the way our guys do their job, just say so, don't beat about the bloody bush.

[SMOKEU]

Smoke, you'd know this how?

You are wrong!


I know enough about the basic rules of the Arms Act 1983 to stay in full compliance with the legislation. A cat rimfire firearms are allowed to have a magazine capacity of up to and including 15 rounds. There are rimfire MSSA firearms around as well.

[Akzle]

No ordinary citizen of New Zealand who isn't in the military is allowed to own or independently operate fully automatic weapons here in NZ. In relation to the underlined and emboldened part of the quote above.

Further, re establish a gun register, here in NZ the gubbermint of the day decided to abolish our gun register. A book in every police station that recorded the sale of every registered firearm in the country.

Do you physically examine the storage capability of every gun owner and ensure that they Do keep their weapons in those safes? We do here in NZ.

while i generally agree with your sentiments, and respect the intention, i have to disagree:

1) C cat licence allows ownership and use of auto weapons.
2) gun register fails, the biggest reason, is that criminals will not register their guns. the second part is that knowing the serial number on a stolen gun doesn't actually stop that gun being used for crime.
find and read the thorpe report, it covered it off pretty well.
3)the storage requirements are examined ONCE when you apply for a licence, they CAN be randomly checked (i've never heard of it) and will be looked at in cases where the cops are going through your house anyway and want something else to ping you on.



Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones.




You are wrong!

An A cat licence allows you to own and operate a centre fire rifle with a fixed magazine capacity of no more than 7 rounds. if you own a semi auto rifle capable of taking a box magazine then you must only own a 7 shot magazine.
If you want to use your semi auto rifle with more than a 7 round capacity magazine then you must apply for, pay much more money for and then be accepted as an E cat owner, then and only then are you legally allowed to own and operate a semi auto rifle that can hold in any way more than 7 rounds.
as above. C cat = autos.

if you're applying for endorsements on your licence, you should apply for as many as you can and only pay the 200$ application fee ONCE, this can get you your B,C,E cat (dealers licence separate i believe), plus the cost of a 6mm safe.


Wrong! The cops didnt even think to check that jaan mollenar had no firearms after he no longer held a license. Then to make it an even bigger cock up, they sent unarmed officers to his residence when the knew he was unstable

Wont happen. The government has proven to license holders that we cant trust them. See the complete balls up with PCP air guns, a knee jerk piece of legislation due to the death of mr Snee. Instead of restricting airguns with a set power limit, all PCPs were declared firearms. So now a PCP of 6 ft/lbs energy used for olympic competition is a firearm ( and incapable of killing anybody), where as a spring cocker of 25 ft/lbs is still an air gun

Already proven that the police dont use the current information they have access to and that the lack of enforcement of current legislation is the issue, not a lack of firearms legislation. See Canada for the the screw up that is the registry (inaccurate, over budget, and compromised on several occasions by criminal elements. Apart from that, what use does it give. Criminals WILL NOT REGISTER THEIR FIREARMS TO BE USED IN CRIME

1) the cops exceeded their authority in entering molenaar's property. i have no sympathy for them. the number of cops that do this on any given day and don't get shot is probably too sick to think about.
and the property-occupant has no recourse, and gets dragged through the crown machine.

2) the PCP thing was hilarious. they generally cost upward of 1500 bucks. require careful maintenance specific gear for filling etc, not exactly the "specs of choice" for crims. PLUS, didn't cover PCP pistols. (don't worry, they're going to nail this down with the latest amendment - all air pistols will be banned.
http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2011/0285/latest/DLM3653106.html?search=ts_act%40bill%40regulation% 40deemedreg_arms_resel_25_h&p=1
)

[caseye]

Smoke, I was referring specifically to Centre fire weapons as you know, stop shit stirring.
Akzle you to are not quite right.
Here tis directly from the Act.

C’ Endorsement (29(2)(b)-(e) Arms Act 1983)
Collectors, Museums, Theatrical
This allows the holder to have pistols and/or restricted weapons. These may not be fired, and are subject to strict storage security.

Persons who come within this category are in the subcategories
of:

Bona fide collectors: Collections must have an identifiable theme. An ad hoc, unrelated group of firearms is not a ‘collection’.
Heirloom or Memento holder: A person to whom a pistol or restricted weapon has special significance.
Director or curator of a bona fide museum.
Employees of bonafide theatrical groups or film making organisations.

Note: Each of these endorsements is issued under the authority of a different subsection of the Arms Act and is specific for the purpose it was issued. If you have a C Endorsement for one sub-category it does not automatically entitle you to any other sub-category.

[Swoop]

The gun register!
Yep Canada have just thrown it out because it cost too much.
Question, what is too much?
The financial part was only one of the reasons (a massive amount however) for getting rid of the registry. Being ineffectual and a waste of time being others.
NZ has probably the best system in place. Check the person prior to issuing a licence. Interviewing family and independant referees for that person is also a vital issue and one that is done very well for firearms owners here.

See the complete balls up with PCP air guns, a knee jerk piece of legislation due to the death of mr Snee.
You are confusing Molenaar with the Auckland incident where the car was being bugged. Mr Snee was shot by Molenaar (not with an airgun)


1) C cat licence allows ownership and use of auto weapons.

3)the storage requirements are examined ONCE when you apply for a licence, they CAN be randomly checked (i've never heard of it)
1: No. Not for firing.
3: You have now heard of it. I have been visited and inspected with a full serial number check of my registered firearms.
An interesting visit with plenty of good chatting over historical issues surrounding certain guns. Quite pleasant actually.

[Paul in NZ]

and this is the problem....

ANY debate on this issue goes down the toilet because it devolves into a spirited debate on whether a pink stocked rim fire semi auto crow plucker should have a 14 round magazine or are only muzzle loaders OK and besides my grandad had a bazooka and an anti aircraft gun and he never kilt no body so it aint the guns fault..... If there is anything more boring than listening to gun nuts rave on about their rights it could only be motorcyclists bemoaning how its all the car drivers fault. I'd rather walk backward up mount cook wearing a live possum strapped to my groin than wade through both together on KB....

The fact is america and some other societies DO have an issue with deranged people getting hold of terrific fire power and causing untold grief. Everyone is more concerned about their own personal 'rights' than they are about the victims than actually suggesting solutions that have a prayer of working. Its very sad...

IMHO - this is a multifaceted issue and one that is not going to be solved by gun control alone. At some point we need to start looking at the combination of issues. Gun availability is one, how we treat mental health is another (plus the increase in autistic spectrum disorders) and then there are the changes in societies from the rapid growth of technology from video games, movies through to the internet. Couple this with a recession that has been going on for a very long time and no opportunity for youth to enter meaningful work and we have an explosive issue...

People with poor social skills relating only to characters in fantastically realistic violent media where there are no repercussions or consequences for unsavory action living in a society where fame is everything and morality a non existent concept while having access to terrible weapons is a nightmare.

[Akzle]

1: No. Not for firing.
3: You have now heard of it. I have been visited and inspected with a full serial number check of my registered firearms.
1)
not for firing

2)
registered firearms, like B&E cats eh?

[caseye]

Butt Akzle, it's the law!
Point taken and acknowledged but there it is in b&w, aye smokie.

[Delerium]

The financial part was only one of the reasons (a massive amount however) for getting rid of the registry. Being ineffectual and a waste of time being others.
NZ has probably the best system in place. Check the person prior to issuing a licence. Interviewing family and independant referees for that person is also a vital issue and one that is done very well for firearms owners here.

You are confusing Molenaar with the Auckland incident where the car was being bugged. Mr Snee was shot by Molenaar (not with an airgun)

1: No. Not for firing.
3: You have now heard of it. I have been visited and inspected with a full serial number check of my registered firearms.
An interesting visit with plenty of good chatting over historical issues surrounding certain guns. Quite pleasant actually.



My bad, the the point was still being made though.

As for what to do... enforce current legislation and stop with the ridiculous ineffective legislation like the touch our butts campaign. I dont see the point in making more ineffective law just so the govt can be seen to be doing something. eg the whole PCP changes... are stupid.

Remember, this latest event did not happen here. firearm crime in nz is typically done with bolt actions and shotguns, so why change the rules that wont have any effect on crime?

[Swoop]

firearm crime in nz is typically done with bolt actions and shotguns, so why change the rules that wont have any effect on crime?
Quite true.
The major events that happened with semi's (David Gray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramoana_massacre) and Jan Molenaar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Napier_shootings)) were already in the eye of the police and in Gray's case they failed to act when indicators said something was wrong. Just the same as the UK police failing to act on the perfetrator at Dunblane, yet every shooter was affected by that police cock-up.

[jasonu]

this is a bloody stupid argument.A military style automatic is designed for one thing.To despatch as many peole as possible.That is not the design breif of a GSXR 1000

My point is that some see a military style weapon as overkill (no pun intended) and the same could be said for a GSXR1000. Wasn't that hard to figure out really...

[jasonu]

Well i guess they could make guns illegal,when enough children have been killed by bombs made in the kitchen using instructions off the internet they could ban the internet and even kitchens i guess.Mexico has vastly different ideas re guns,fuck all crime in Mexico...:weird:

I agree with all of the above EXCEPT for the bit about fuck all crime in Mexico (Unless you were being fasicious of course). That place is riddled with all sorts of crime and is a totally unsafe place to be/visit.

[Swoop]

I agree with all of the above EXCEPT for the bit about fuck all crime in Mexico (Unless you were being fasicious of course). That place is riddled with all sorts of crime and is a totally unsafe place to be/visit.
Mexico is an unknown in NZ. It doesn't make the news here, so has to be "safe".
Cartels? What are those?

[ellipsis]

. That place is riddled with all sorts of crime and is a totally unsafe place to be/visit.

...even if you are a badass Mexican with a bootload of M16s...

[scumdog]

Hmm, Monday an office duty female officer shot'n'dropped a gunman letting loose with a pistol in San Antonio...

[SMOKEU]

I agree with all of the above EXCEPT for the bit about fuck all crime in Mexico (Unless you were being fasicious of course). That place is riddled with all sorts of crime and is a totally unsafe place to be/visit.


Mexico is an unknown in NZ. It doesn't make the news here, so has to be "safe".
Cartels? What are those?

Mexico, the home of Mundonarco.

[Swoop]

...an office duty female officer...

What was she doing out of the office?

[mashman]

What was she doing out of the office?

Doing what they're genetically programmed to do... getting coffee and donuts.

[GTRMAN]

you been a bad boy Akzle??

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8103461/Armed-police-respond-to-gun-incident (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8103461/Armed-police-respond-to-gun-incident)

[SMOKEU]

Is it possible to convert a Russian RPG-7 to A cat?

[Swoop]

Is it possible to convert a Russian RPG-7 to A cat?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
Even though it has a free-standing pistol grip, it is still only a single shot.
You should be safe.

[Delerium]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
Even though it has a free-standing pistol grip, it is still only a single shot.
You should be safe.

I suspect it is classed as a restricted weapon so you will be shit out of luck

[scumdog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
Even though it has a free-standing pistol grip, it is still only a single shot.
You should be safe.

C'mon already, the last thing SMOKEU needs is encouragement!:crazy:

[Swoop]

I suspect it is classed as a restricted weapon so you will be shit out of luck

I think finding live rounds for one of those would prove difficult, hence the sarcasm dripping off of the last sentence.:whistle:

[SMOKEU]

It would be mean to go deer or pig hunting with a RPG.

[PrincessBandit]

I see that the NRA is stating that their solution to the school massacre is to have armed guards in every school in the States. "The only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". Dearie me. I guess only if the "good" guy gets in first...

Educating people isn't the answer either because, generally speaking, it would be preaching to the converted - nutters and those with an axe to grind aren't usually open to being educated in the ways of harmonious living. In a nation where carrying arms is basically a right, and in many states a rite of passage, one wonders if they will take the 'fight guns with guns' route.

Despite everything we bitch and moan about in New Zealand, I'm glad I live here.

[caseye]

Same here PB.
I can't believe that the NRA has made such a fucked up proposal.
They deserve everything they get from here on in, in my humble opinion.

[dinosaur]

You have to get a license for both a car and a gun, if used irresponsibly they both can kill people, pretty easy to get your hands on one even if you're not licensed
Cars are responsible for the death of thousands each year? 42,643 in 2004, 32,788 in 2011 in the US. A lot of children die on our roads - from adults making mistakes or not following the rules/laws, misusing a vehicle.
What about the family in Whakamaru last week; two parents and three kids all dead? Is it the car that killed them, or the person who was responsible for operating it correctly and safely? It's stupid to ban cars but do we need more regulation? Will people break the law anyway?
Lets not even get started on alcohol and drugs, smoking, and how many people die (eventually) from those indulgences?
What about motorbikes? No one NEEDS a motorbike yet they kill between 3000 and 5000 a year in the States? Far more fatalities than the miss-use of firearms? Do we need more regulations or requirements around getting a bike license? I know plenty of unlicensed riders? Would making it harder to get one reduce the stupidity that results in deaths?

How come some things we find acceptable in terms of consequences, and others we don't? Sure we want to prevent it, but realize it's the price of freedom, to be able to get out there and have a blast on our bikes. Some of us are safety nuts, some lunatics, some of us are responsible but some should never put a leg over a bike

I don't have a gun, nor a gun license and I think the internal low level arms race that is going on in the streets of the USA is crazy - but is it any crazier than what we do?

[misterO]

You have to get a driver's license because driving is a privilege. In America gun ownership is a right.

[Akzle]

you been a bad boy Akzle??

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8103461/Armed-police-respond-to-gun-incident (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8103461/Armed-police-respond-to-gun-incident)
surrender. lol. you be trollin.

Is it possible to convert a Russian RPG-7 to A cat?
restricted under schedule 1 Arms (Restricted Weapons and Specially Dangerous Airguns) Order 1984

It would be mean to go deer or pig hunting with a RPG.
no it wouldn't

You have to get a driver's license because driving is a privilege. In America gun ownership is a right.

driving's a right. i claim it.

in yankland you have a one week wait while the FBI does a background check, to buy a gun. sidearms at 18, long guns at 21 (or the other way around, can't remember) you can't buy .50 cals (because "terrorists use them to shoot down planes" - lulz) or silencers (without a 200$ permit for EACH silencer) (because "black people use silencers when robbing places" - lulz)
america(ns) are/is fucking stupid.

the fact that the guy in this instance possessed the guns legally. well.
well fucking nothing. really. the insane might do more damage with a gun, but if a power drill is the only thing they can lay hands on (or a car) then they'll use that to do harm instead.

america has a sick attitude to firearms. they deserve what they get.

[lakedaemonian]

You have to get a driver's license because driving is a privilege. In America gun ownership is a right.

And beyond the focus on the right to self-protection, there is also the responsibility to deter tyrrany.

Anyone familiar with the 4th Estate? Journalism performs a non-codified check/balance function on an out of control government.

Unfortunately, the formerly diverse opinions/ownership of mass media in the US has collapsed from over 6000 owners to a mere 6 that represent 90% of mass media in the US.

While there seems to be a lot more variety of magazine/television/radio options, the reality is the ownership of 90% of them has shrunk to 6 owners.

That should be quite concerning to anyone living in the US as media there has become a bit like a mix between Orwell's 1984 Ministry of Information, Gilliam's Brazil, and a corporatized hybrid of Goebbels' propaganda machine.

The 2nd Amendment is codified in law(as well as written about extensively in the Federalist Papers used by the US court system) as a check/balance against government tyranny......it's a control measure by the Founders to deter a future government from spinning out of control.

The original Mutual Assured Destruction relationship.

[SMOKEU]

no it wouldn't

.

Yes it would be!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj0v1V3M10g

[awa355]

That the NRA is saying armed guards are needed in a primary school says everything about a fucked up society where human behaviour and human decency have gone down two different paths. They have lost the plot somewhere.

I would doubt too many 3rd world countries see the need to have armed guards in their schools.

When I think of the good things America has given to the world, it is sad to see this level of intelligence dominating public opinion.

[SMOKEU]

I would doubt too many 3rd world countries see the need to have armed guards in their schools.



There's no money for that sort of thing in third world countries. They are generally far more violent than the Americans are.

[Daffyd]

That the NRA is saying armed guards are needed in a primary school says everything about a fucked up society where human behaviour and human decency have gone down two different paths. They have lost the plot somewhere.


I see that the NRA is stating that their solution to the school massacre is to have armed guards in every school in the States. "The only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". Dearie me. I guess only if the "good" guy gets in first...

This is the norm here in the Philippines... armed guards at school gates, banks and ATM's, supermarkets, department stores, and anywhere else you can find lots of money. Usually armed with a pump action shottie and a handgun. I have seen automatic weapons as well, but not a lot. Gave me the shits for a start but now I'm quite used to it and after a while it gives one a sense of security. In fact the TWO at my bank are very friendly and we always have a conversation when I go there. Was even wished a merry Xmas with a handshake last time I was there.

[jasonu]

Same here PB.
I can't believe that the NRA has made such a fucked up proposal.
They deserve everything they get from here on in, in my humble opinion.

Definitely egg on face for the NRA for that statement.:facepalm:

[jasonu]

in yankland you have a one week wait while the FBI does a background check, to buy a gun. sidearms at 18, long guns at 21 (or the other way around, can't remember) you can't buy .50 cals (because "terrorists use them to shoot down planes" - lulz) or silencers (without a 200$ permit for EACH silencer) (because "black people use silencers when robbing places" - lulz)
[/color]

All totally incorrect.

[Zedder]

Gun making via printer:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/video.cfm?c_id=2&gal_cid=2&gallery_id=129983

[Akzle]

All totally incorrect.

go on. enlighten us.
(point by point, if you wouldn't mind, a'cause i'm sure you're you're just being a muppet.

[Laava]

I see that the NRA is stating that their solution to the school massacre is to have armed guards in every school in the States.


Guess who will get the first bullet?

[jasonu]

in yankland you have a one week wait while the FBI does a background check,Wrong it takes less than half an hour, the shop where you are buying your gun makes the call while you wait. to buy a gun. sidearms at 18, long guns at 21 Wrong (or the other way around, can't remember)Correct you can't buy .50 cals Wrong most gun shops stock them (because "terrorists use them to shoot down planes" - lulz)That is just stupid or silencers (without a 200$ permit for EACH silencer) Wrong you need a class 3 NFA (manufacturers) license to buy a silencer, machine gun, grenade etc and each time you buy one of these itwems there is a $200 registration/booking fee (not permit) (because "black people use silencers when robbing places" - lulz) Another stupid comment
america(ns) are/is fucking stupid. So are raghead half breed mongrels

]10characters

[dinosaur]

Is there any truth in the saying you reap what you sow, or in the concept of Karma?

America my run around the world defending the innocent and oppressed - but behind the scenes you always find out years later what the true motive was, normally money or oil
But even in just campaigns the young and defenseless pay with their blood
Are they just reaping what they sow

[Laava]

Is there any truth in the saying you reap what you sow, or in the concept of Karma?

America my run around the world defending the innocent and oppressed - but behind the scenes you always find out years later what the true motive was, normally money or oil
But even in just campaigns the young and defenseless pay with their blood
Are they just reaping what they sow

Is this you?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/westboro-baptist-church-protest-newtown-victim-funeral-_n_2331880.html

[mashman]

Guess who will get the first bullet?

True. Then the gunperson will have inherited an extra gun and bullets to do more damage.

[Zedder]

True. Then the gunperson will have inherited an extra gun and bullets to do more damage.

Exactly. Unless of course the cop is an elite special forces type impossible to detect and yet omni present.

Better to have a cop in every class room, hall etc then they can bust students for all sorts of other things and gain revenue for the gummint.

[mashman]

Exactly. Unless of course the cop is an elite special forces type impossible to detect and yet omni present.

Better to have a cop in every class room, hall etc then they can bust students for all sorts of other things and gain revenue for the gummint.

heh... instill the fear.

May as well just turn schools into prisons from the getgo and save money too.

[Zedder]

heh... instill the fear.

May as well just turn schools into prisons from the getgo and save money too.

Yep, start 'em young. Let's face it, the Colleges over there (and other places) have got students paying through the nose down pat so gaining income from the other education levels should be an objective...

[Swoop]

Dunno why everyone's going on about people buying guns in America.

They've sold dynamite to coyotes for years.

[scumdog]

Over in Aussie right now, newspapers are full of 'ban guns and it will all be OK' messages, after reading some of them I can see why a couple of motorbike journioos referred to thier own country as the 'biege country'.

And old Howard was blowin' his trumpet on how when he was PM he sorted out Aussies 'gun problem' after the Tassie massacre.

And over the page was a news article on how a search warrant at a 'P' lab located a sawn-off shottie, and a pump-action .22 plus ammo for both. :laugh:

[Road kill]

Over in Aussie right now, newspapers are full of 'ban guns and it will all be OK' messages, after reading some of them I can see why a couple of motorbike journioos referred to thier own country as the 'biege country'.

And old Howard was blowin' his trumpet on how when he was PM he sorted out Aussies 'gun problem' after the Tassie massacre.

And over the page was a news article on how a search warrant at a 'P' lab located a sawn-off shottie, and a pump-action .22 plus ammo for both. :laugh:

Yes I was in Aussie when they started taking guns off hunters and target shooters.

The only thing that really changed in the criminal world was the price of a .38 in several well known south/west Sydney hotels doubled over night.

Yeah well done mr howard you did real good:rolleyes:

[Sable]

The only thing I have to add to this is that guns are totally fucking awesome.

[Swoop]

Over in Aussie right now, newspapers are full of 'ban guns and it will all be OK' messages, after reading some of them I can see why a couple of motorbike journioos referred to thier own country as the 'biege country'.

And old Howard was blowin' his trumpet on how when he was PM he sorted out Aussies 'gun problem' after the Tassie massacre.
Deluded fuckwits. You can find them anywhere, but particularly in the media, the green party and also the anti-gun lobby.

[Akzle]

((poor HTMLing))
1-Wrong it takes less than half an hour, the shop where you are buying your gun makes the call while you wait.
2-sidearms at 18, long guns at 21 Wrong
3-you can't buy .50 cals Wrong most gun shops stock them
4-(because "terrorists use them to shoot down planes" - lulz)That is just stupid
5-or silencers (without a 200$ permit for EACH silencer) Wrong you need a class 3 NFA (manufacturers) license to buy a silencer, machine gun, grenade etc and each time you buy one of these itwems there is a $200 registration/booking fee (not permit)
6- america(ns) are/is fucking stupid. So are raghead half breed mongrels
1- wunnt there a brady bill that went through about the time of clinton?
2-yeah. howsat?
3-really
4-it is just stupid, sounds exactly like the type of fare the US guv feed the flock
5-so basically, you need to pay 200$ for a silencer for each gun. kinda like i said. it just isn't called a permit
6-well, at least you're not in denial.

post script: i could care less about american legislation, a lot of what i've taken as fact came from the implications of http://www.gunfacts.info/

Deluded fuckwits. You can find them anywhere, but particularly in the media, the green party and also the anti-gun lobby.
greens. really?

[awa355]

It's happening already.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8109474/Texas-teachers-carry-concealed-guns

[Kickaha]

It's happening already.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8109474/Texas-teachers-carry-concealed-guns

That because to Americans the answer will always be "more guns"

[scumdog]

That because to Americans the answer will always be "more guns"

And who would argue with THAT?:whistle:

[FlangMasterJ]

06Lw7xa6lHU

[mashman]

Fecksake... (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/two-firefighters-shot-killed-while-responding-webster-n-163105823.html) the used to do similar, except with air rifles, back in Glasgow. Why, I'll never know

[scumdog]

Fecksake... (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/two-firefighters-shot-killed-while-responding-webster-n-163105823.html) the used to do similar, except with air rifles, back in Glasgow. Why, I'll never know

Why?
Probably because getting a 303 was a bit hard...

(But what a fuckwitted idea anyway:tugger::rolleyes:)

[Swoop]

10 chars...

275088

[awa355]

Now the picture is complete.

[Swoop]

Now the picture is complete.

From post 314?

[mashman]

Why?
Probably because getting a 303 was a bit hard...

(But what a fuckwitted idea anyway:tugger::rolleyes:)

Quite possibly a large part of it... although knowing the area they probably didn't want to kill.

(Agreed)

[Big Dave]

And who would argue with THAT?:whistle:

Me. I think the ban is good.

The gun control measures have worked.

it was never about 'criminals'. It's about easy access for whackos and mass murders and we haven't had one since.

[Road kill]

Me. I think the ban is good.

The gun control measures have worked.

it was never about 'criminals'. It's about easy access for whackos and mass murders and we haven't had one since.

I guess all the bike gang murders and shooting don't count then.

Or all your mafia murders either huh.

How many was that again ?

Oh yeah they've only increased so I guess your gun laws work real well.

[SMOKEU]

Look at how well gun laws have('nt) worked in South Africa. It's full of cheeky kaffirs just waiting to rob and shoot you.

[Big Dave]

I guess all the bike gang murders and shooting don't count then.

Or all your mafia murders either huh.

How many was that again ?

Oh yeah they've only increased so I guess your gun laws work real well.



Gangster shit would have and will happen anyway. Regardless.

What *hasn't* happened is some psycho nutter goes berserk and kills 35 people.

From that point of view they are a great success, yeah.

[Road kill]

Gangster shit would have and will happen anyway. Regardless.

What *hasn't* happened is some psycho nutter goes berserk and kills 35 people.

From that point of view they are a great success, yeah.

How do you know some nutter with a couple of plugs of Powergell isn't waiting just around the corner,,like at the Viking last month,,,what are the clowns going to do then,,,ban mining ?

Ivan Mallat,not so hasn't happened again after all.

But of course he was just another "criminal" that was going to happen no matter what,,,and I guess he doesn't fit your agrument anyway ,,,right.

[Akzle]

What *hasn't* happened is some psycho nutter goes berserk and kills 35 people.

you're right! that hasn't happened!! upto, including, or since 1996.

amazing how public opinion can change about 80% (*from about 3% support for the legislation to ~86%) when the media reports a story, innit.

[slowpoke]

How do you know some nutter with a couple of plugs of Powergell isn't waiting just around the corner,,like at the Viking last month,,,what are the clowns going to do then,,,ban mining ?

Ivan Mallat,not so hasn't happened again after all.

But of course he was just another "criminal" that was going to happen no matter what,,,and I guess he doesn't fit your agrument anyway ,,,right.

Dude, no comment is better than a bad comment, you're just not making sense.....and considering you are an advocate for less rather than more controls on weapons your cause is done more harm than good.

Fact: in the 14 years leading up to the new gun control legislation in Australia there were many gun massacres (Milperra, Hoddle Street, Strathfield, Port Arthur etc etc, where a massacre is generally defined as more than 4 people)

Fact: in the 14 years since the change in legislation and gun amnesty etc there has not been a single massacre

Fact: in the 14 years since the legislation was introduced and gun amnesty etc the number of weapons stolen each year has massively reduced.

These aren't opinions, it's simply the way it is.

[Delerium]

Dude, no comment is better than a bad comment, you're just not making sense.....and considering you are an advocate for less rather than more controls on weapons your cause is done more harm than good.

Fact: in the 14 years leading up to the new gun control legislation in Australia there were many gun massacres (Milperra, Hoddle Street, Strathfield, Port Arthur etc etc, where a massacre is generally defined as more than 4 people)

Fact: in the 14 years since the change in legislation and gun amnesty etc there has not been a single massacre

Fact: in the 14 years since the legislation was introduced and gun amnesty etc the number of weapons stolen each year has massively reduced.

These aren't opinions, it's simply the way it is.


you havent proven correlation let alone causation.

[Zedder]

you havent proven correlation let alone causation.

It's not necessary to prove it. Causation can exist when correlation is zero.

[sgtp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FvTO-y-B2YM

[Swoop]

...in the 14 years since the legislation was introduced and gun amnesty etc...

Ah yes, the gun amnesty. Possibly the BEST way for shooters to make money by handing in pieces of crap that no intelligent person would be seen posessing. Australia uses one of the finest methods of a "part" being handed in for a dollar handout far in excess of what would be normal.

Most people do not know that there is a permanant amnesty here. Hand in stuff and the police will take it away.
Much better for the taxpayer as well, as we don't get shafted by stupid propaganda-based bullshit.

[scumdog]

Fact: in the 14 years since the legislation was introduced and gun amnesty etc the number of weapons stolen each year has massively reduced.

.

No need to with the numbers of pistols being smuggled into Aussie...

[Zedder]

Shooting class:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWaHQiXhro4

[dinosaur]

It's not necessary to prove it. Causation can exist when correlation is zero.

I've done it again ........ sucked into thinking you could have a sensible conversation on KB!!!! What was i thinking



It's life Jim ....But not as we know it

[Delerium]

It's not necessary to prove it. Causation can exist when correlation is zero.

Bollocks!

10char

[lakedaemonian]

Me. I think the ban is good.

The gun control measures have worked.

it was never about 'criminals'. It's about easy access for whackos and mass murders and we haven't had one since.

No they haven't.

Chicago......another "gun free" city has started the 2013 year with a spike in firearms related crime and murder....failure.

The VAST, VAST majority of firearms crimes committed are with handguns........just since the Newtown shooting far more have been killed with handgun firearms......but the problem of handgun violence/crime is ignored for the statistically irrelevant "scary black assault rifles".

Handguns provide a means of individual equality and self defense....as well as a convenient and easily concealable tool for criminals.

Rifles, particularly modern semi automatic rifles in the hands of millions of responsible citizens, provide a means of deterring tyranny.

There's a reason why the media are completely ignoring and shaping the message of the 2nd Amendment's purpose towards sporting purposes, because the primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment from the Framers' Intent is for the 2nd Amendment to DETER TYRANNY.

Are you familiar with the term "4th Estate"?

How about the "2nd Estate"?

In the US, the 4th Estate is effectively owned by the 2nd Estate.

While the number of TV channels, radio stations, magazines, and internet properties have exploded in variety in recent decades the actual number of owners has shrunk to the point that 6 companies control well over 90% of US mass media, which is an incredibly dangerous level of ownership concentration.

Diversity of media and news opinion has been destroyed.

People who think we in the west are so enlightened that tyranny is obsolete are dangerously naive.

People also need to understand the difference between excellence and perfection.

The pursuit of excellence is often ugly and has it's setbacks, nothing worth doing is ever easy.

The pursuit of utopic perfection is a fool's errand.......and anyone willing to surrender their freedom easily for the perception of security deserves neither.

Unlike the rest of the world, a US citizens right and responsibility to own firearms is codified in law.....BIG difference.

And it's looking like the Executive branch of the US government is likely to bypass the US legislative process entirely.

Instead of attempting to turnover the US 2nd Amendment and instead of enacting a law to limit personal firearms ownership, it's looking like limitations will be by decree.

That's not particularly democratic.

[lakedaemonian]

Ah yes, the gun amnesty. Possibly the BEST way for shooters to make money by handing in pieces of crap that no intelligent person would be seen posessing. Australia uses one of the finest methods of a "part" being handed in for a dollar handout far in excess of what would be normal.

Most people do not know that there is a permanant amnesty here. Hand in stuff and the police will take it away.
Much better for the taxpayer as well, as we don't get shafted by stupid propaganda-based bullshit.

Unfortunately, the absolute failure of gun amnesty/buyback schemes(at least in the US) is that if the firearms are used in the commission of a crime, they are destroyed no questions asked...by the Police...without investigation.

[Zedder]

Bollocks!

10char

Get a grip, you and dinosaur need to brush up on statistics/science.

[Banditbandit]

Unfortunately, the absolute failure of gun amnesty/buyback schemes(at least in the US) is that if the firearms are used in the commission of a crime, they are destroyed no questions asked...by the Police...without investigation.

And illegal firearms are not usually handed in ... illegal firearms will almost eertainly not be handed in by the crims - who want to use them again ..

[Banditbandit]

What *hasn't* happened is some psycho nutter goes berserk and kills 35 people.

From that point of view they are a great success, yeah.

Yeah .. maybe. Massacres like that are pretty rare (even in the USA) ... The only two I can remember in Oz were Hoddle Street (1987) and Port Arthur (1996) ... In Godzone we've only had Aramoana (David Grey) unless you count Stanley Graham (and Graham was a little different - even if he did use the military weapon of his day)

Maybe the fact that there have not been any since the law change is a result of the law change - and maybe it's because neither country hasd yet produced a crazy that bad ... but could do so any day now.

I believe it is too soon to say that there hav been no massacres in either country because of the change in gun laws ... I am prepared to accept that it might have an effect ... but give it another ten years and maybe you can make that statement.

Norway has stronger gun control laws than Godzone or Oz ... and still managed to produce Andres Breivick

[lakedaemonian]

And illegal firearms are not usually handed in ... illegal firearms will almost eertainly not be handed in by the crims - who want to use them again ..

If crims have spent any time in prison acquiring a degree in criminology, they'll know that permanently getting rid of a weapon used and discharged in the commission of a crime, especially murder, and acquiring another one easily enough is what the less stupid crims do.