American gun mania

[awa355]

In the state of Colorado, since the shooting at the Aurora cinema, gun sales in that state have increased some 15% ( it may be even higher) as Americans decide that more firearms in the possesion of ( paranoid ? ) citizens are the answer.


The amount of weapons and explosives, this nutter was able to buy without any checks is amazing.

I guess the amount of weapons, both legal and illegal in the USA is probably well beyond any effective control.

What do you think?

[Paul in NZ]

I think you are right...

[merv]

They are crazy I reckon :crazy:.

[Katman]

Guns don't kill people.

People and guns kill people.

God bless America.

[SMOKEU]

Motor vehicles are a (potentially) far more dangerous weapon than a gun will ever be.

[mashman]

At least he didn't make them all smoke cigarettes

[misterO]

Sales are up simply because people fear tighter regulation.

[superman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcmuPc8_SWQ

It's so striking how Norwegians didn't even mention death penalty with Breivik despite his mass murdering of youth, Americans however... not quite as civilised.

Thank God for the death penalty and more guns.

[sil3nt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XSJv8nwVBk

[Paul in NZ]

Ah - shooting dead a nere do well is truely living the american dream....

[Katman]

youchube video

Fuck me - he wasn't a very good shot.

Were those Braille Society glasses he was wearing?

[Road kill]

There's two things about the American approach to firearms.
#1 the basic principal is spot on.
#2 in practice it doesn't work.
On an American Kayaking forum I read of a guy that approached some young guys in a speed boat that had gotten to close to him at speed.
He had his pet stainless steel .38 in his lap as he paddled up to give these guys a piece of his mind when they stopped close by.
They spotted the .38 so pulled out a shotgun an told him in no uncertain terms to fuck off.
Some of the repliers to his story weren't from America and asked silly things like "why pull out a gun just to talk to somebody.
neither he nore any of the other yanks could understand why you wouldn't.
The land of the brave.:brick:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oooh, i used to be a paddler.

On an american based music board I am on, they generally seem like sane and sensible folk, but in one of the threads one of the posters posted pics of the gun he was shooting at the weekend.

It was very cool. But a it was a .50 Cal rifle. something like a Barrett. They were shooting holes in engine blocks at 200 yards. "I wouldnt recommend shooting anything other than terrorists and lightly armoured vehicles with it" Obviously the guy isn't a nut job, but blimey.

the interesting thing for me was not the fucking looney with the AR15 (with 100 round drum mag) and shotgun AND a buncha .40 cal glocks, but the fact that he had tactical armour on, a helmet, was using gas and wearing a gas mask. Sure beats the long black coat a la Columbine (or the MAtrix).

[slofox]

They're fucked in the head mon.

[Oscar]

Motor vehicles are a (potentially) far more dangerous weapon than a gun will ever be. I'd like to see you kill 12 people in a Movie Theater with a car...

[Mungatoke Mad]

Sales are up simply because people fear tighter regulation. & all them Bears they got running round :ar15::ar15::ar15:

[SMOKEU]

I'd like to see you kill 12 people in a Movie Theater with a car...

Steal an SUV and go on a rampage in a crowded area. Firearms (legally) require a firearms license to purchase in this country. Anyone can buy a cheap deregistered vehicle with no questions asked and start running people over. If you walk around the streets with a gun, then it will be pretty obvious that you're up to no good. Drive around in a 20 year SUV and chances are no one will take a second look, which makes it even more deadly since it has the element of surprise.

[pzkpfw]

& all them Bears they got running round

Well, they do have the right to arm the bears.

[carburator]

Steal an SUV and go on a rampage in a crowded area. Firearms (legally) require a firearms license to purchase in this country. Anyone can buy a cheap deregistered vehicle with no questions asked and start running people over. If you walk around the streets with a gun, then it will be pretty obvious that you're up to no good. Drive around in a 20 year SUV and chances are no one will take a second look, which makes it even more deadly since it has the element of surprise.

Actually No you don't need a liscence and its been proven a number of times with trademe.
what you need is sellers that are stupid....

hell arm's sale's in the states went up before obama became pressie why possible more arms restrictions.
hell even when the cops are informed that nutters are holding arms ( Molar ) and still do nothing go figure..

[Grubber]

Steal an SUV and go on a rampage in a crowded area. Firearms (legally) require a firearms license to purchase in this country. Anyone can buy a cheap deregistered vehicle with no questions asked and start running people over. If you walk around the streets with a gun, then it will be pretty obvious that you're up to no good. Drive around in a 20 year SUV and chances are no one will take a second look, which makes it even more deadly since it has the element of surprise.

This has to be a stitch up, you can't be serious surely!!!!:wacko:

[Tigadee]

the interesting thing for me was not the fucking looney with the AR15 (with 100 round drum mag) and shotgun AND a buncha .40 cal glocks, but the fact that he had tactical armour on, a helmet, was using gas and wearing a gas mask. Sure beats the long black coat a la Columbine (or the MAtrix).

Matrix is so passe... Hurt Locker is the in thing now.

[geoffm]

Given he had explosives in his apartment that took a day to disarm, a gun was better than the traditional Irish surprise of a nail bomb.
Unlike the Columbine loosers, his bombs apparently would have worked plenty well.

[Edbear]

Gun control has been a non-starter for a very long time. The right to bear arms has been Te American way since inception and nobody now is going to change that.

People may argue but history clearly shows that possessing weapons of itself greatly increases the chance they will be used ahead of alternatives and training means that generally the person is more likely to turn to violence as a solution.

Of course some training, usually in the martial arts teaches restraint and trying other ways first, but unfortunately it seems the world is literally going mad and such incidents will only increase in number.

[The Lone Rider]

I'm American (can't you tell from the all American avatar?)


The original post by the thread starter has fired me up and/or made me paranoid and/or frightened. I have since gone out and bought a gun in response.


True story.

[Tigadee]

LR - Single or double action?

[mashman]

LR - Single or double action?

He's American... gotta be fully auto with extended clip capacity

[Brett]

I think that firearms are one of those cat out of the bag things. Once it's ingrained in your culture, you won't get rid of them.

[Akzle]

Maybe they should follow our lead and arm their police force. Surely that wil help the/...


O.

Wait on...

[Road kill]

Personally I don't think guns are as much the problem as loonys are.
Plus it's all very popular to point the finger at Americans,but we seem to keep up pretty well in the loony kills en mass stakes,,,,,really it's just a matter of numbers and we may in fact be worse.
Actually we probably are worse because our three worst cases were committed by people with a "known" history of being fruit loops yet our mental health system had done nothing about them.
In America the gun is most popular due to availability,,in the UK the worste mass killing in resent history was committed using a gallon of gas.
When society starts taking genuine responsibility for it's nutters these things will stop.
Until then,,,learn how to reload "it's a lot cheaper than buying factory.

[GTRMAN]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

The US only ranks #4 for gun deaths (murders) per head of population

[SMOKEU]

I think that firearms are one of those cat out of the bag things. Once it's ingrained in your culture, you won't get rid of them.

That explains the violence and crime associated with a certain race of people in NZ.

[scumdog]

I'd like to see you kill 12 people in a Movie Theater with a car...

Not fair - cars aren't designed to kill.

But they do a bloody good job regardless - especially in NZ!

[scumdog]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

The US only ranks #4 for gun deaths (murders) per head of population

Aw, you misery-guts myth killer you...

[oneofsix]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

The US only ranks #4 for gun deaths (murders) per head of population

Who's planning to go to Thailand for their next overseas holiday? :eek5:
SA, well we know how bad that is by all the ex-pats now here. ;)
Colombia = drug cartels of USA media is to be believed, so no surprises there.

The next report will be the gun battles in the audience at the movies.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/7350344/Gun-sales-surge-after-Aurora-massacre

Do these peoples really think they will get a chance or guts to shoot back? Guess there isn't much other choice though and suspect I too would be buying a handgun in their situation just for the feeling that I could shoot back.

[Brett]

Almost certainly a repost...but very relevant to our conversation and incredibly funny at the same time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db0Y4qIZ4PA

[GTRMAN]

I think Chris Rock puts it best, don't worry about gun control, just make bullets $300 each.

[SMOKEU]

Those gun murder statistics are a lie. Where are the stats from the Middle East?

[GTRMAN]

Those gun murder statistics are a lie. Where are the stats from the Middle East?


SOURCE: The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2002) (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)


Best take up your issue with the UN then

[Grubber]

That explains the violence and crime associated with a certain race of people in NZ.

What race would that be? I don't see any particular colour over indulging in this gun situation.
Why bring up race again...oh yea, i forgot....your the racist fella aye!

[Swoop]

Guess there isn't much other choice though and suspect I too would be buying a handgun in their situation just for the feeling that I could shoot back.

As the saying goes... never take a knife to a gunfight.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Who's planning to go to Thailand for their next overseas holiday? :eek5:
SA, well we know how bad that is by all the ex-pats now here. ;)
Colombia = drug cartels of USA media is to be believed, so no surprises there.

The next report will be the gun battles in the audience at the movies.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/7350344/Gun-sales-surge-after-Aurora-massacre

Do these peoples really think they will get a chance or guts to shoot back? Guess there isn't much other choice though and suspect I too would be buying a handgun in their situation just for the feeling that I could shoot back.

sure, you've done a bunch of range shooting, you're tooled up with your Glock or Sig in its concelaed carry harness, and you have the relevant permits.

You've never shot when you had to before. You are shooting in the dark, at someone who is armed with automatic weapons and body armour and a ballistics helmet who WILL SHOOT BACK at you.

Good luck with that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What race would that be? I don't see any particular colour over indulging in this gun situation.
Why bring up race again...oh yea, i forgot....your the racist fella aye!

thats that old joke:

a spy had to meet his contact in a pub in Ireland and has to ask for Mick: says to the barman "I'm here to meet Mick"

Barman says "Mick? Which one? Mick the butcher, Mick the policeman? Mick the milkman? Mick the postie? Mick the teacher"??

Er, no, another Mick

Oh, yeou mean Mick the spy? Hes over there.....

Mr Smokeu is Mick the racist.

[ducatilover]

That explains the violence and crime associated with a certain race of people in NZ.
Yeah, those fuckin' SUV driving south Africans.
:motu: :bleh:


Guns smoke often after/during use. There's the issue.

[placidfemme]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms


Whey!! Look at Zimbabwe! finally in the top 10 of something (other than shit-hole countries) :clap:

[SMOKEU]

thats that old joke:

a spy had to meet his contact in a pub in Ireland and has to ask for Mick: says to the barman "I'm here to meet Mick"

Barman says "Mick? Which one? Mick the butcher, Mick the policeman? Mick the milkman? Mick the postie? Mick the teacher"??

Er, no, another Mick

Oh, yeou mean Mick the spy? Hes over there.....

Mr Smokeu is Mick the racist.


What race would that be? I don't see any particular colour over indulging in this gun situation.
Why bring up race again...oh yea, i forgot....your the racist fella aye!

I'm not racist. My cat and dog are both black.

[ducatilover]

I'm not racist. My cat and dog are both black.
Dogs and cats don't have races.

[Tigadee]

You've never shot when you had to before. You are shooting in the dark, at someone who is armed with automatic weapons and body armour and a ballistics helmet who WILL SHOOT BACK at you.

And surrounded by panicked stampeding bystanders to boot! The gunman will have no qualms about shooting at you and through anyone in the way, whereas you need to be extremely careful not to end up shooting another innocent.

The NRA's rationale for more guns instead of less is getting pretty weak. I doubt a roomful of gun-packing bystanders could still take down this guy... Americans obviously get their firearms training from Hollywood movies...

[SMOKEU]

Dogs and cats don't have races.

Oh yes they most certainly do! I can provide pics if you don't believe me.

[HenryDorsetCase]

And surrounded by panicked stampeding bystanders to boot! The gunman will have no qualms about shooting at you and through anyone in the way, whereas you need to be extremely careful not to end up shooting another innocent.

The NRA's rationale for more guns instead of less is getting pretty weak. I doubt a roomful of gun-packing bystanders could still take down this guy... Americans obviously get their firearms training from Hollywood movies...

A Navy SEAL or Willie Apiata could likely take out the looney with the AR15, but Joe Lunchbox? Not so much

[ducatilover]

Oh yes they most certainly do! I can provide pics if you don't believe me.
I see what has happened there :brick:

[Road kill]

That explains the violence and crime associated with a certain race of people in NZ.

Yeah I fully agree,,those white cunts have kills thousands of our people.
I belive the Poms left a pretty good number of your people in the dirt as well.
You fucking clown.

[SMOKEU]

Yeah I fully agree,,those white cunts have kills thousands of our people.
I belive the Poms left a pretty good number of your people in the dirt as well.
You fucking clown.

You should be a comedian.

[Tigadee]

A Navy SEAL or Willie Apiata could likely take out the looney with the AR15, but Joe Lunchbox? Not so much

With what? A pen? Pocket knife? I don't think off-duty SEAL or SAS carry a personal firearm, do they?

A lot of off-duty policemen (in America anyway) carry a personal piece, that much is common knowledge but what are the chances there will be one in the exact cinema where something like this happens in the first place? And would the average off-duty policeman be able to handle a situation like that with a head shot?

[puddytat]

Just imagine if everyone starts to carry a gun.....it'd be like a South Park episode . The postal workers starts his spree....someone else has a gun & starts shooting at Him....3rd person with gun sees 2 people in post office shooting...etc etc.....police rock up & think its a coordinated attack of terrorists....:killingme
pistols arnt very accurate at anything anyway, throw in the adrenalin shakes....:eek5:

[Tigadee]

pistols arnt very accurate at anything anyway, throw in the adrenalin shakes....:eek5:

You're right. Again Hollywood makes people - especially Americans - think that spray and pray works, and that you can shoot a gun out of someone's hand.

Revolvers are much better - solid, reliable and accurate. They should allow six shooters like the good old frontier days! Yeeehah!

[onearmedbandit]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

The US only ranks #4 for gun deaths (murders) per head of population

Sorry I don't see where it says 'per head of population' on the page you linked. Happy to be proved wrong.

[ducatilover]

Sorry I don't see where it says 'per head of population' on the page you linked. Happy to be proved wrong.
It doesn't. However
SA has 50.5M people,
Colombia has 46.93M
Thailand 70M
The usa, 311.6M the rest is math I cannot be fuckered doing

[BMWST?]

Steal an SUV and go on a rampage in a crowded area. Firearms (legally) require a firearms license to purchase in this country. Anyone can buy a cheap deregistered vehicle with no questions asked and start running people over. If you walk around the streets with a gun, then it will be pretty obvious that you're up to no good. Drive around in a 20 year SUV and chances are no one will take a second look, which makes it even more deadly since it has the element of surprise.

thats completely irrelevant we are talking about guns in the US not guns in NZ

[toebug]

Hell, just let them shoot each other. The world is over populated anyway....:ar15:

[onearmedbandit]

It doesn't. However
SA has 50.5M people,
Colombia has 46.93M
Thailand 70M
The usa, 311.6M the rest is math I cannot be fuckered doing

Then the Philippines should be ahead of America. At only 1600 fewer murders with firearms than America but less than a 1/3 the population they should be well ahead on a per capita basis. And that's only the first one I looked at. The rank on that link means nothing at all without taking into account population. In fact per capita you'll find the rank is completely different.

[ducatilover]

Then the Philippines should be ahead of America. At only 1600 fewer murders with firearms than America but less than a 1/3 the population they should be well ahead on a per capita basis. And that's only the first one I looked at. The rank on that link means nothing at all without taking into account population. In fact per capita you'll find the rank is completely different.
I know, hence my providing of the numbers and saying I couldn't be bothered doing the math (I have eBay to waste money on instead)

[Akzle]

I'd like to see you kill 12 people in a Movie Theater with a car... so would i. that would be hilarious.


As the saying goes... never take a knife machete to a gunfight.shop


sure, you've done a bunch of range shooting, you're tooled up with your Glock or Sig in its concelaed carry harness, and you have the relevant permits.

You've never shot when you had to before. You are shooting in the dark, at someone who is armed with automatic weapons and body armour and a ballistics helmet who WILL SHOOT BACK at you.

Good luck with that. actually. the number of incidents that have been contained when a would-be victim presented a firearm (let alone actually shot the prick) is significant.
probably not relevant in this case as the guy had clear intent. but, in a theatre of what 50? 100 people? if everyone else is ducking running and carrying on, it wouldn't take tooo much for you to slip your peacemaker (.44 magnum) out, steady it over the back of a seat and put a hollow point in the c*nts eye.


Just imagine if everyone starts to carry a gun.....it'd be like a South Park episode . The postal workers starts his spree....someone else has a gun & starts shooting at Him....3rd person with gun sees 2 people in post office shooting...etc etc.....police rock up & think its a coordinated attack of terrorists....:killingme
pistols arnt very accurate at anything anyway, throw in the adrenalin shakes....:eek5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhgwy9y5ttA 1:01

[Akzle]

also.
it was dem whitey that gave everyone guns. and fair perfected the art of killing fellow (or black) men.
there'd be a lot less car-jackings and 'burgs if they still had to chuck spears.

[onearmedbandit]

I know, hence my providing of the numbers and saying I couldn't be bothered doing the math (I have eBay to waste money on instead)

Ahh my bad, your 'however' threw me. And I couldn't be arsed doing the maths either, just knew the rough population of the Philippines.

[ducatilover]

Ahh my bad, your 'however' threw me. And I couldn't be arsed doing the maths either, just knew the rough population of the Philippines.
My brain must be too switched over to focusing on not buying a set of cams off eBay ;)

[SMOKEU]

I'd like to see you kill 12 people in a Movie Theater with a car...

They do it in the middle east all the time. It's called a car bomb.

[Tigadee]

but, in a theatre of what 50? 100 people? if everyone else is ducking running and carrying on, it wouldn't take tooo much for you to slip your peacemaker (.44 magnum) out, steady it over the back of a seat and put a hollow point in the c*nts eye.

There exists a contradiction in there, methinks. When would you ever be able to squeeze off a round when there are people running, screaming, shouting and falling all around you?

And what's to stop others from mistaking you for another gunman and tapping you with their firearm (since you carry one, others might too)? Or you mistaking another fellow vigilante for another malicious gunman and shooting him/her? And how sure you won't accidentally pump a round into some 16 year old who runs in front of you? Or freezes in your way when they see you and the gunman realises what's happening and taps you instead by shooting through another victim?

Best thing to do is what the crim is doing in this case, buy a bulletproof vest/pants/headgear (OK, maybe not the helmet or else look like a dork). As an article said, defensive equipment is not legislated, illegal or monitored. (If you can afford a gun, you can afford a bulletproof vest.)

[HenryDorsetCase]

[COLOR="#139922"]actually. the number of incidents that have been contained when a would-be victim presented a firearm (let alone actually shot the prick) is significant.
probably not relevant in this case as the guy had clear intent. but, in a theatre of what 50? 100 people? if everyone else is ducking running and carrying on, it wouldn't take tooo much for you to slip your peacemaker (.44 magnum) out, steady it over the back of a seat and put a hollow point in the c*nts eye.



Um, it was a first midnight screening of the latest hollywood blockbuster. I would think there would have been between 500 and 800 seats in that theatre, most of them occupado.

The Wild West fantasy thing is bullshit. If you are Joe lunchbox and you are tooled up, you're going to die. Remember the lunatic has automatic weapons, a shotgun, a glock, is wearing full ballistic protection, has teargassed the place and he has a mask and you don't, [edit] and its dark and its full of screaming, running punters.... [edit].

You are going to die. The only way you dont is if you are lucky. Play the odds.

[HenryDorsetCase]

My brain must be too switched over to focusing on not buying a set of cams off eBay ;)

at last something sensible to talk about. Tell us about your cams Obi-wan.

[HenryDorsetCase]

also.
it was dem whitey that gave everyone guns. and fair perfected the art of killing fellow (or black) men.
there'd be a lot less car-jackings and 'burgs if they still had to chuck spears.

Oh dear, you are a silly person.

[Akzle]

Best thing to do is what the crim is doing in this case, buy a bulletproof vest/pants/headgear (OK, maybe not the helmet or else look like a dork). As an article said, defensive equipment is not legislated, illegal or monitored. (If you can afford a gun, you can afford a bulletproof vest.)
it's "illegal" in NZ to wear body armour.



The Wild West fantasy thing is bullshit. If you are Joe lunchbox and you are tooled up, you're going to die. Remember the lunatic has automatic weapons, a shotgun, a glock, is wearing full ballistic protection, has teargassed the place and he has a mask and you don't, [edit] and its dark and its full of screaming, running punters.... [edit].

the odds would swing wildly in my favour in this situation, were i packing.

it aint no "wild west fantasy" he has, by your reckoning 799 highly agitated and distracting targets, his attention is well divided, the chances he's going to notice the 1 guy quietly lining him (one target) up are almost nil. moreso since it doesn't appear he had any kind of training.
he can only wield two weapons at once, shotguns are generally considered two-handed, cq weapons, i dont know what autos he was carrying, but basically he's only gonna be able to dish out 30 odd round from two pistols, or one clip (say, 30-100 rounds) from the auto (probably also two hands req'd) before a reload. from what i hear about 60 people were injured, which suggests a spray and pray with the auto, then a burst with the pistols.
in that situation he's put himself at a disadvantage by carrying so many weapons.
body armour doesn't protect head/neck shots, nor "incapacitating" shots (shoulders-arms-knees)
hell, 300gr of HP through the femural artery and he's going down in short order, then going to bleed to death.
...even copping a 44 round chestally (with armour) is going to put him on his ass.

[Road kill]

I don't think It is illegal to wear body armour in NZ,you can buy it at reloaders and I've seen different versions on TM as well.
Maybe your thinking of Aussie where the cops don't like it because it makes it harder for them to kill you if they have you surrounded ten to one and your armed with something scary like a blunt bread knife.

[GTRMAN]

it's "illegal" in NZ to wear body armour.



the odds would swing wildly in my favour in this situation, were i packing.

it aint no "wild west fantasy" he has, by your reckoning 799 highly agitated and distracting targets, his attention is well divided, the chances he's going to notice the 1 guy quietly lining him (one target) up are almost nil. moreso since it doesn't appear he had any kind of training.
he can only wield two weapons at once, shotguns are generally considered two-handed, cq weapons, i dont know what autos he was carrying, but basically he's only gonna be able to dish out 30 odd round from two pistols, or one clip (say, 30-100 rounds) from the auto (probably also two hands req'd) before a reload. from what i hear about 60 people were injured, which suggests a spray and pray with the auto, then a burst with the pistols.
in that situation he's put himself at a disadvantage by carrying so many weapons.
body armour doesn't protect head/neck shots, nor "incapacitating" shots (shoulders-arms-knees)
hell, 300gr of HP through the femural artery and he's going down in short order, then going to bleed to death.
...even copping a 44 round chestally (with armour) is going to put him on his ass.



Aren't paintball guns your thing Akzle?


Tell me, when you're sitting cross legged on the floor in a pile of your own faeces, masturbating whilst reading guns and ammo, does it ever occur to you that you're just plain crazy?

[schrodingers cat]

No. You're the crazy one. All of you are

[SMOKEU]

No. You're the crazy one. All of you are

We all go a little crazy sometimes. I stole that line from Scream.

[Akzle]

Aren't paintball guns your thing Akzle?


Tell me, when you're sitting cross legged on the floor in a pile of your own faeces, masturbating whilst reading guns and ammo, does it ever occur to you that you're just plain crazy?

uhh. i do like paintball guns, but me last one broke some years ago and i never put the $$ into fixing it.
am looking at this (http://www.paintballshop.co.nz/Products/milsig-kseries-mkii-srt-sniper-desert-ops-custom--.html) and this (http://www.paintballshop.co.nz/Products/tiberius-arms-t81-socom-pack.html), though.

i don't sit cross legged, it's bad for my ankles and knees,
i'm actually housetrained and shit on your lawn rather than inside,
i masturbate several times a week, usually to porn or mental fantasies about lithe asian asian women who enjoy anal sex,
guns and ammo is an excellent publication and you shouldn't slander them by associating me with them,
and as far as being just plain crazy, i'd say that's you're hat not ivan jumbawumba.
tukke tukke KAKAW!

your cloud is a lot shittier and lackwitted without it's thunder eh?

[Hoon]

the odds would swing wildly in my favour in this situation, were i packing.
Highly unlikely.
Unless you've been trained to react in those kind of situations your brain will get bypassed and you're body will go straight into flight mode. Even if by some miracle you were able to compose yourself and in the confusion of battle make a correct appreciation of the situation, form a course of action, grow enough balls to take a peak with automatic gunfire coming down on you and bring your pistol into the aim, you'd probably be shaking so bad that'd you'd be ineffective at anything further than 5 metres away anyway so any talk of head shots is pure fantasy.

To overcome this takes training and lots of it - you don't get it from playing paintball and reading gun magazines. Only a clueless couch commando would rate their chances with a pistol against a determined well prepared automatic rifle equipped enemy wearing body armour.

[Daffyd]

Dogs and cats don't have races.

Yes they do! My dogs used to race along the beach all the time. :lol:

[Akzle]

Highly unlikely.
To overcome this takes training and lots of it - you don't get it from playing paintball and reading gun magazines. Only a clueless couch commando would rate their chances with a pistol against a determined well prepared automatic rifle equipped enemy wearing body armour.

that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i disagree.
the number of times people with the means have stepped up to the plate probably outweighs the other.
there was an incident (somewhere in yankland), the state did not allow concealed or open carry. fortunately an off duty cop was packing his 38. no mention of if the cop had been under fire before. dick tried to hold up a shopping mall and had a (non-fatal) dose of lead administered.
=situation de-escalates.

what better place to carry out that shit than where you KNOW that noone will legally be able to defend theyselves?

the "gun magazines" available in NZ aren't the kind that that guy woulda been into. here we have publications that showcase our beautiful country and show what a guy with nous, balls and a weapon can do against weary prey animals.
not wannabe "tactical" "swat secrets and knuckle dusters" types

i maintain that my chances would be good, given the mental position that guy would have been in. (assured upper hand, and distracted)

i agree that putting bullets into meat, particularly human meat, is a far cry from punching paper, but as teh samurai of old, repetition is key. the movements become instinctual, "no mind", as most people who change gears in a manual, or breathe - you know the objective, but you go through the motions without thinking.

[davereid]

Sorry I don't see where it says 'per head of population' on the page you linked. Happy to be proved wrong.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_fir_hom_rat_per_100_pop-rate-per-100-000-pop is the per 100,000 stats, USA is 8th.


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-000-people USA is #63

[Akzle]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_fir_hom_rat_per_100_pop-rate-per-100-000-pop is the per 100,000 stats, USA is 8th.


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-000-people USA is #63

what a poorly effort on NZ's part. even Abjizerstan beats us. terrible.
but what's the per-capita firearms OWNERSHIP rates.?

i think NZ ranks highly with about 4-7 guns per license holder, obviously the gang's don't submit their armouries for auditing, but you could easily add 1/3rd again.

[Oscar]

what a poorly effort on NZ's part. even Abjizerstan beats us. terrible.
but what's the per-capita firearms OWNERSHIP rates.?

i think NZ ranks highly with about 4-7 guns per license holder, obviously the gang's don't submit their armouries for auditing, but you could easily add 1/3rd again.

If you start counting illegally held guns in NZ, you have to do it overseas as well.
How efficient do you suppose the gun licensing authorities in Azerbaijan are?

[HenryDorsetCase]

If you start counting illegally held guns in NZ, you have to do it overseas as well.
How efficient do you suppose the gun licensing authorities in Azerbaijan are?

AK47 $40USD in the market or two goats.

[puddytat]

For those wanting to indulge in Fantasy Land well its in Hastings for a start, but you can get most of the acessories here....
www.kiwidisposals.co.nz.
267160

[SMOKEU]

AK47 $40USD in the market or two goats.

Count me in!

[Flip]

Do you want the AK or the Goats you sick fuck?

[Akzle]

If you start counting illegally held guns in NZ, you have to do it overseas as well.
How efficient do you suppose the gun licensing authorities in Azerbaijan are?


..."temporary importation into or export from Azerbaijan of items such as firearms, religious materials, antiquities (including carpets), medications, and caviar, and any amount of currency over USD 1,000. Visitors who purchase carpets will generally require an export permit issued by the State Museum of Azerbaijan Carpet and Applied Art; many carpet-selling shops will obtain that permit for the buyer for a fee"

+http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/azerbaijan
i'm quite glad NZ doesn't have a State Museum of NZ Carpet and Applied Art. it would make smugglin rug and applying my art to em a lot harder.

[Timber020]

that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i disagree.
the number of times people with the means have stepped up to the plate probably outweighs the other.
there was an incident (somewhere in yankland), the state did not allow concealed or open carry. fortunately an off duty cop was packing his 38. no mention of if the cop had been under fire before. dick tried to hold up a shopping mall and had a (non-fatal) dose of lead administered.
=situation de-escalates.

what better place to carry out that shit than where you KNOW that noone will legally be able to defend theyselves?

the "gun magazines" available in NZ aren't the kind that that guy woulda been into. here we have publications that showcase our beautiful country and show what a guy with nous, balls and a weapon can do against weary prey animals.
not wannabe "tactical" "swat secrets and knuckle dusters" types

i maintain that my chances would be good, given the mental position that guy would have been in. (assured upper hand, and distracted)

i agree that putting bullets into meat, particularly human meat, is a far cry from punching paper, but as teh samurai of old, repetition is key. the movements become instinctual, "no mind", as most people who change gears in a manual, or breathe - you know the objective, but you go through the motions without thinking.


Never underestimate how badly people react to moments of great fear, discomfort and general panic. Most peoples choice of a ccw is a sub compact or compact or snub revolver running lighter rounds and its unlikely that have more than a dozen available rounds.

These type of pistols are a compromise, made light and short for easy carry and draw, but this also limits there accuracy and round capacity. They take alot of training and discipline to shoot with any accuracy when your calm facing paper. Make it to dark to see there sights, peopel running and screaming, get the blood pumping, and a bit of tear gas and your have someone who has lost 95% of there shooting ability and a good 60% of clear judgement

If you put 10 ccw well intended average citizens in that theatre here how it would probably work out.

7 would try to run out with the rest of them, possibly two of these once outside would consider going back in to save face, but wont. They will never admit to being armed that night.

One would freeze up and roll into the tightest ball he can

One would shield his wife or partner, and might even draw his gun but wouldnt use it.

And the last one would draw his weapon, but not be able to take a shot due to it not being an ideal shooting solution for him. And if he did shoot, the chance of him hitting the bad guy is slim to none.

Everyone thinks that a gun in there hands would be a quick end to these kind of situations, but the fact is, most react badly if they react at all. Put a person a few rows back with a keltec 380 in that place, its going to be just a waste of bullets.
People are morons, scared heavily armed people are highly dangerous morons. For all the CCW carriers and armed off duty cops, they create much more accidents than they ever come close to stopping



Did you hear about the cop that got shot by his 3 year old because he left his loaded glock under the carseat and his kid wasnt strapped in. They guys sueing glock over it!

[oneofsix]

Never underestimate how badly people react to moments of great fear, discomfort and general panic. Most peoples choice of a ccw is a sub compact or compact or snub revolver running lighter rounds and its unlikely that have more than a dozen available rounds.

These type of pistols are a compromise, made light and short for easy carry and draw, but this also limits there accuracy and round capacity. They take alot of training and discipline to shoot with any accuracy when your calm facing paper. Make it to dark to see there sights, peopel running and screaming, get the blood pumping, and a bit of tear gas and your have someone who has lost 95% of there shooting ability and a good 60% of clear judgement

If you put 10 ccw well intended average citizens in that theatre here how it would probably work out.

7 would try to run out with the rest of them, possibly two of these once outside would consider going back in to save face, but wont. They will never admit to being armed that night.

One would freeze up and roll into the tightest ball he can

One would shield his wife or partner, and might even draw his gun but wouldnt use it.

And the last one would draw his weapon, but not be able to take a shot due to it not being an ideal shooting solution for him. And if he did shoot, the chance of him hitting the bad guy is slim to none.

Everyone thinks that a gun in there hands would be a quick end to these kind of situations, but the fact is, most react badly if they react at all. Put a person a few rows back with a keltec 380 in that place, its going to be just a waste of bullets.
People are morons, scared heavily armed people are highly dangerous morons. For all the CCW carriers and armed off duty cops, they create much more accidents than they ever come close to stopping



Did you hear about the cop that got shot by his 3 year old because he left his loaded glock under the carseat and his kid wasnt strapped in. They guys sueing glock over it!

That basically fits the stats that came to light post WWII, only about 2% of the infantry deliberately aimed at the enemy, of those 1% were physco's that loved the killing and 1% were protecting their mates. Now which 1% to put Akzle in??
When they followed the stats back as best they could they found it was true of most shooting wars, like the USA civil war were one rifle contained a barrel full of cartridges because the guy had been going through the motions of loading and aiming and reloading without ever firing, just so he looked the part but didn't have to kill anyone.

[scumdog]

This thread is full of key-board warriors that 'know' what they would do when a gunman runs amock...

[oneofsix]

This thread is full of key-board warriors that 'know' what they would do when a gunman runs amock...

Yep, get low and play dead.

[Tigadee]

Yep, get low, squirt a packet of tomato sauce on your shirt and play dead.

One more bit to do in between get low and play dead...

[SMOKEU]

This thread is full of key-board warriors that 'know' what they would do when a gunman runs amock...

So what would you do, officer?

[jasonu]

Sales are up simply because people fear tighter regulation.

100% correct.

IMOI doubt anything will actually be changed because of this incident. Romney correctly said a law change is pointless as this guy would have done this no matter what the law is. Both the Rebulicans and Democrats will steer clear of this political hot spud because no matter what they do they will risk loosing votes from one camp or another this November. Senior polli Gabrielle Giffords was shot in a similar incident last year in Arizona and fuck all was changed because of that.

[jasonu]

With what? A pen? Pocket knife? I don't think off-duty SEAL or SAS carry a personal firearm, do they?


You think wrong.

[Akzle]

100% correct.

IMOI doubt anything will actually be changed because of this incident. Romney correctly said a law change is pointless as this guy would have done this no matter what the law is.

yeah.. i'm pretty sure lobbing teargas into a cinema and shooting a few dozen people is already illegal... although. tis 'merica. you never know.


That basically fits the stats that came to light post WWII, only about 2% of the infantry deliberately aimed at the enemy, of those 1% were physco's that loved the killing and 1% were protecting their mates. Now which 1% to put Akzle in??
When they followed the stats back as best they could they found it was true of most shooting wars, like the USA civil war were one rifle contained a barrel full of cartridges because the guy had been going through the motions of loading and aiming and reloading without ever firing, just so he looked the part but didn't have to kill anyone.
i take umbrage at your inference (however slight) at my psychopathy.
a shootin war is a completely different scenario.


This thread is full of key-board warriors that 'know' what they would do when a gunman runs amock...
awww. scum puppy didn't get to pway wiff his gwock todaayyy?
(or were you out popping off courier drivers?)


i've already dictated what my carry weapon would have been. yes it's a revolver, but it aint no 380. y' don't need an extended clip, or even the 12+ shots of a normal auto.
you're assertions are PURELY SPECULATIVE.
to be fair, so are mine. but mine have a more positive outcome. =)

[awa355]

Was in the greasys shop this evening, waiting for the weekly roast. ( I cook on pay nights), and read an editorial in an American Gun magazine.

The emphasis was on the number of Police departments across America that were being closed down, and the hundreds of policemen that have been laid off as the economy takes a dive.

Basiclly, it said that with far fewer police on the streets, and the increase in 'crazies' roaming the streets, it was more important than ever that Joe Lunchbox, ( apparently, not a crazy), carried a weapon, on himself, in the car and home to defend him and his family.

I guess with this sort of hysteria being bandied about by the gun lobby, that the 2nd Admendment wont be re-written any time soon.

[Akzle]

Was in the greasys shop this evening, waiting for the weekly roast. ( I cook on pay nights), and read an editorial in an American Gun magazine.

only in te awamutu...

((does one find an american gun magazine in a roast shop)) wtf.

but yeah. everyone should get guns. learn to use em. learn a bit of self control and respect for shit what can kill ya. and teach your kids the same. Xbox guns don't count. IRL you only get fragged once.

[SMOKEU]

learn a bit of self control and respect for shit what can kill ya. and teach your kids the same.

Considering the fact that comparitively few people in NZ can even drive a car safely, I'd hate to think what would happen when the average idiot has a gun.

[Kickaha]

I'd hate to think what would happen when the average idiot has a gun.
I guess we'll find out when you get yours

[Fast Eddie]

I guess we'll find out when you get yours

:lol::lol:

[SMOKEU]

I guess we'll find out when you get yours

Think what you like, you don't know the half of it.

[oneofsix]

i take umbrage at your inference (however slight) at my psychopathy.
a shootin war is a completely different scenario.

Yeah you are right, I guess you wouldn't be in either of the shooting 1%s, duck, cover and talk big perhaps.
You are also right that a war is completely different, few innocents on the battle field and soldiers were encouraged to shoot at the opposition. No risk of wrongful or accidental shooting suites, greater risk of death or maiming and the soldiers are prepared for what they are facing rather than a nice night at the movies.

[scumdog]

You think wrong.

Yup, just left Texas and there's a fair number of off-duty servicemen and cops carrying a handy, light pistol.

And letting rip with a gun there is just as much fun as it is in NZ!:headbang:

[Tigadee]

So a sub-compact or compact pistol or revolver with poor sights and terrible range and accuracy for an off-duty weapon?

Doubtful if something like that would have helped in the Colorado scenario with only a small target of the assailant's face being vulnerable in a dark environment, what with the rest of his body being encased in bullet proof helmet, vest and pants.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/07/the_aurora_shooting_bulletproof_vests_swat_gear_an d_body_armor_refute_the_nra_.html
"He [Holmes] wore a ballistic helmet, a ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector, and tactical gloves. He was so well equipped that if anyone in that theater had tried what the National Rifle Association recommends—drawing a firearm to stop the carnage—that person would have been dead meat. Holmes didn’t just kill a dozen people. He killed the NRA’s answer to gun violence."

Even if you get a shot off from your 9mm or .380 compact without hitting someone yelling, screaming, tumbling, running all around you, and end up missing his face and instead hit his body or helmet with no effective result, you'd just end up pissing him off more and making yourself and anyone near you the next targets. And who's to say he wasn't juiced up on some drug or drugs, making him nearly immune to any pain should he actually somehow been hit with the small caliber round(s). And stats have shown that the 9mm or smaller are pretty poor for effective stopping power...

You could be hailed as a hero for likely delaying him for a few seconds from shooting somebody else, but you'd be a dead hero. Tango and Cash is Hollywood, not real-life...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsGq4_19p6Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=120s

[jasonu]

Was in the greasys shop this evening, waiting for the weekly roast. ( I cook on pay nights), and read an editorial in an American Gun magazine.

The emphasis was on the number of Police departments across America that were being closed down, and the hundreds of policemen that have been laid off as the economy takes a dive.

Basiclly, it said that with far fewer police on the streets, and the increase in 'crazies' roaming the streets, it was more important than ever that Joe Lunchbox, ( apparently, not a crazy), carried a weapon, on himself, in the car and home to defend him and his family.

I guess with this sort of hysteria being bandied about by the gun lobby, that the 2nd Admendment wont be re-written any time soon.

Dunno who wrote that or where they come from but that is the first time I have heard anything like that. Some cop shops are doing some slight cutbacks like not immediately replaceing someone who leaves/quits/retires but that is about it (around here anyway).

[caseye]

[QUOTE=Tigadee;1130368415]So a sub-compact or compact pistol or revolver with poor sights and terrible range and accuracy for an off-duty weapon?

You miss the point, me thinks.
An off duty American Police/Service man/woman does know how to use a weapon, particularly if they have their own.An most do.
Small with poor sights range and accuracy, all go out the window if in the hands of a proficient user.
Course, calibre becomes important if you are deliberately shooting at a bullet proof vest, not a head or groin.
Again though, don't be fooled by the magic of Hollywood.
Bullets do take you off your feet if you are hit centre mass, so a good solid hit will stop the offender using his own weapon at least long enough to either disarm or better still eliminate the threat completely as long as of course the threat is still holding a weapon.
We don't have many here that do use weapons on a regular basis but most Police Officers in the States do use weapons far more often ( even if only at training) than any of our guys and girls.
Once again too, we forget that many US citizens have permits to carry and regularly use their weapons on ranges and do become quite proficient in their use.
Living here and not knowing for sure what happened and who was there, makes most of what we think, say or do about this crime nothing more than conjecture.
Perhaps it was lucky that no one was carrying and drew their weapon, perhaps if someone had, the guy might have been prevented from harming anyone.
See, conjecture.
Personal opinion aside in the States much as is happening here ordinary people are beginning to take action for themselves and are no longer satisfied with, call the Police and wait.
Many don't have that luxury and them or their loved ones get terribly hurt, either way.
So if we take all the guns off our law abiding, licensed, vetted, heavily financially penalised firearms holders here or anywhere else, what is going to happen?
Are firearms offences going to stop over night? No.
Do criminals who have guns, have licenses? No!
Would they pay for their licence application, the vetting, the physical checks on themselves and their properties for suitability to own operate and store firearms? No.
Do they care what the law says or does or what law abiding people think of them having firearms? No.
So what is making laws that only actually affect licensed holders going to do to them? Um, Nothing!

Govt's favourite way of making things go away. Tax IT!

Shit that didn't take long.
So here we are, as motorcyclists we're being attacked in exactly the same was as licensed firearms users are, at least in the States they actually have a group( National Rifle Association) who can and do lobby for them and their rights.
What do we have?
A bunch of simpering pansies who won't even raise their middle finger to Govt in case the taxes go up again, pussies the lot of ya!.
Gun control, is being able to hit your target!

[SMOKEU]

So if we take all the guns off our law abiding, licensed, vetted, heavily financially penalised firearms holders here or anywhere else, what is going to happen?
Are firearms offences going to stop over night? No.
Do criminals who have guns, have licenses? No!


The government in South Africa tried exactly that, and all that happened is that responsible people found it extremely difficult to enjoy their hobby legally, but the criminals kept on killing at more or less the same rate as before.

[Tigadee]

I can accept that an off-duty police officer or service personnel may be able to handle his/her weapon proficiently, but there're still heaps of factors to take into account - physical, psychological, environmental, etc. Only an expert on such scenarios can tell us for sure the likelihood of success on being able to take out the gunman.

I'm more concerned if a gung-ho hero wannabe whipped out his gun and started a running battle which may end up getting me killed, never mind himself!

[Akzle]

So a sub-compact or compact pistol or revolver with poor sights and terrible range and accuracy for an off-duty weapon?

you clearly missed the bit where i said FOURTY-FOUR MAGNUM. so there it is. in caps.


...have a group( National Rifle Association) who can and do lobby for them and their rights.

...Gun control, is being able to hit your target!

yeah. the average pistol shooter puts a 400-600 rounds down range every month. FWIW the NZ police only have about 60 rounds/year paid for. (by you, taxees)
many can shoot proficiently from the hip (pistol shooters, not police). check out any 3 gun competetion, or any pistol club, for just how snazzilly these people can flick lead.

and +1, while a 9 or a 38 might not have "killin' power" against an armoured target, 350ft/lbs, applied to a spot the diameter of your thumb, has a bit of "fall down, fukkah" to it.

what we have in NZ?
we do have an NRA, also COLFO, and NZDA.
personally vote colfo as they have more of a grasp on sensible legislation rather than "hunters rights" "game animal council" and "1080 waaaaaaaaaaaaa" than the NZDA. i don't know what our NRA do.. but i never hear about them.

[Tigadee]

you clearly missed hte bit where i said FOURTY-FOUR MAGNUM. so there it is. in caps.

Right, right... So you think you can achieve a kill shot with a .44 in that chaotic situation. For the sake of the innocents around you, I certainly hope you're as capable as you believe.

[scumdog]

you clearly missed the bit where i said FOURTY-FOUR MAGNUM. so there it is. in caps.



and +1, while a 9 or a 38 might not have "killin' power" against an armoured target, 350ft/lbs, applied to a spot the diameter of your thumb, has a bit of "fall down, fukkah" to it.


[/COLOR]

I've seen a video of a guy wearing body armour (that he markets) shooting himself in the chest with a 44mag, didn't seem to phase him too much.

(Mind you, he cheated a tad by putting a phone book between the armour and his chest to spread the load and stop the bruising, what a pussy...)

I suspect the impact would be equal to a hard punch.

[caseye]

Hate to say it scummy but this time ol Akzle is closer to it. Even a tiny little old .38 snub nose fired from closeish range will knock a full grown adult on their arse. Course that's if they was wearing a bullet proof vest without a Phone book ( Phew, US size phone book????) in front of it.
Tig, you are not alone and anyone who does draw down had better be good enough or more people are going to get hurt.
Butt, it has happened in the past and the perpetrators have ended up dead and ordinary citizens have been hailed as life saving heroes, so who's right?
NZ NRA does exist but mostly ineffectual as is NZDA when it comes to govt lobbying, COLFO is still pretty quiet but getting there and representing more of the actual shooters in NZ.
3 Guns are bloody good sport and you get very good, quick, if you practice enough.

[Akzle]

I've seen a video of a guy wearing body armour (that he markets) shooting himself in the chest with a 44mag, didn't seem to phase him too much.

was that at the "sorry we can't afford bullets, here's a video" cop academy?

[Tigadee]

Butt, it has happened in the past and the perpetrators have ended up dead and ordinary citizens have been hailed as life saving heroes, so who's right?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OvMZT2zfy0

Back to topic:
I'm happy to have my concerns proven wrong if the likelihood of success would outweigh the likelihood of failure in situations such as what happened in Aurora, Colorado if one or more armed citizens had been present... not that I'm anybody whose opinions matter much anyway

[caseye]

Tig, there are enough people out there who will put you down for nothing without doing it yourself, it matters,K.

[scumdog]

was that at the "sorry we can't afford bullets, here's a video" cop academy?

Uh, maintaining more decorum than Akzle here: No, it was a few years ago - no involvement with any 'cop academy' (wtf are they?).

And it was demonstarted to be full loads being used.

Think about it - if the impact of a bullet hitting somebody really could sit them on their arse then the recoil of the gun being used would very likely do the same to the shooter using it...

[Akzle]

Think about it - if the impact of a bullet hitting somebody really could sit them on their arse then the recoil of the gun being used would very likely do the same to the shooter using it...

i didn't realise you were a yank. it explains a bit though. new zealand cops don't get much boolitts. the zing was lost, obviously, in you being a yank cop.

a 'gun' focuses an explosion in one direction.
it usually weighs somewhere in the order of 1/2-3 kilograms, give or take.
a projectile typically weighs 40-600 grains. dont ask me what the conversion of that is. it's miniscule.

i'm not sure if this prick had been shot before, or was on drugs. but for the average joe in the average bullet proof vest, i reckon a 44 will knock the wind out of em, and sit em down in a short hurry.
plus. they don't call 'em "peacemakers" for nothing :D

[Kickaha]

i didn't realise you were a yank. it explains a bit though. new zealand cops don't get much boolitts. the zing was lost, obviously, in you being a yank cop.

a 'gun' focuses an explosion in one direction.
it usually weighs somewhere in the order of 1/2-3 kilograms, give or take.
a projectile typically weighs 40-600 grains. dont ask me what the conversion of that is. it's miniscule.

i'm not sure if this prick had been shot before, or was on drugs. but for the average joe in the average bullet proof vest, i reckon a 44 will knock the wind out of em, and sit em down in a short hurry.
plus. they don't call 'em "peacemakers" for nothing :D


Yeah Scummy you stupid Merkin, what would you know


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0u8KssBP0w

Obviously all faked :whistle: or maybe they just need to use a biger gun

[Road kill]

i didn't realise you were a yank. it explains a bit though. new zealand cops don't get much boolitts. the zing was lost, obviously, in you being a yank cop.

a 'gun' focuses an explosion in one direction.
it usually weighs somewhere in the order of 1/2-3 kilograms, give or take.
a projectile typically weighs 40-600 grains. dont ask me what the conversion of that is. it's miniscule.

i'm not sure if this prick had been shot before, or was on drugs. but for the average joe in the average bullet proof vest, i reckon a 44 will knock the wind out of em, and sit em down in a short hurry.
plus. they don't call 'em "peacemakers" for nothing :D

The .44 mag with factory standard loads generates 18.5 foot pounds of recoil.
Hold that sucker in one hand an pull the trigger and your going to get some variety in your sex life,,when your forced to change hands for a week.
I have both .38 and .44 mag rounds in my collection,,I think both come in around 80-100g.
Certainly nowhere near .600g.

[pritch]

Think about it - if the impact of a bullet hitting somebody really could sit them on their arse then the recoil of the gun being used would very likely do the same to the shooter using it...

That's it exactly. Can't remember the exact law (school was a looooong time ago), "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"?

Too many people think that what they see in the movies is real. Besides it's when the bad guy gets hit he goes sailing backwards, I can't recall that happening to the good guy. Maybe Hollywood has special bullets?

[Road kill]

Just finished looking through my favorite reloading manual.
Some interesting stuff written by the currently active American cop that wrote the whole article.
The standard factory .44mag load has a 180g projectile and it's that load that produces 18.5 lb of recoil.
You can load them with up to a 220g projectile which is only ever used in hunting situations and is considered good medicine for large bears and elk if you can get close enough to hit them.
Doesn't give recoil figures for that load though.
The same guy goes on to say that in a combat situation the .44 mag is not much use due to how long it takes to bring it back on line from recoil after the first shot.
The main thing he points out is that the .44mag is a hunting weapon,not a combat weapon.
In his work he shoots a .45 "non magnum" which is accurate,stays on line,follow up shoots are instant and it still makes a big hole in what ever it hits.
And dirty harry was just a funny movie.

[oneofsix]

That's it exactly. Can't remember the exact law (school was a looooong time ago), "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"?

Too many people think that what they see in the movies is real. Besides it's when the bad guy gets hit he goes sailing backwards, I can't recall that happening to the good guy. Maybe Hollywood has special bullets?

Newton's law, first from memory. Only a few centuries old, basis for rockets, so what the hell would he know, Hollywood is modern so must know better. Oh yeah he was also the guy what invented gravity.

BTW did anyone see this
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/7410351/How-to-survive-an-office-shooting

[Akzle]

The .44 mag with factory standard loads generates 18.5 foot pounds of recoil.
Hold that sucker in one hand an pull the trigger and your going to get some variety in your sex life,,when your forced to change hands for a week.
I have both .38 and .44 mag rounds in my collection,,I think both come in around 80-100g.
Certainly nowhere near .600g.

yeah. because how many pistols do you keep that weight 3 kilo? (i was including rifle rounds in that measure)
the grips in dem days were DESIGNED to allow the pistol to roll back in the hand when fired. that's the hump-backed grip.



The same guy goes on to say that in a combat situation the .44 mag is not much use due to how long it takes to bring it back on line from recoil after the first shot.
The main thing he points out is that the .44mag is a hunting weapon,not a combat weapon.
In his work he shoots a .45 "non magnum" which is accurate,stays on line,follow up shoots are instant and it still makes a big hole in what ever it hits.
And dirty harry was just a funny movie.

huh. now here we need to consider that .45acp is just that. 45 AUTOMATIC colt pistol calibre.
half the recoil (not half, but a bit) goes into racking the action. the .44 mag specified is a revolver, 100% of that recoil is going through the frame.
45"non magnum" is a flat shooting, hard hitting calibre, being big bore and medium velocity, it shoots "softer" than a 9mm para.
.45 acp has a lighter projectile, and a lighter powder load than 44 mag.
i'm not entirely sure what your point was. so i'm going to have another coffee and smoke.

asides, really, how many shots do you think y' need with a 44 mag?

and to whomever posted those vids. i didn't watch them, but they look like compact automatics, 38 or 9mm, i can't speculate on the loadins but i'm gussing they're light. i'm also guessing the models are fair used to being shot. in addition, full projectile velocity may well not be attained since they're shooting "point blank" and likely using HP or wadcutter rounds which will have less smack down anyway.

[jasonu]

The S&W 50cal is the most powerful handgun made and that includes rifle and shotgun round pistols. It is a big heavy gun that is really uncomfortable (and expensive!) to shoot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-xQtdu6aOg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-FG9ZKerGM&feature=relmfu

[Road kill]

yeah. because how many pistols do you keep that weight 3 kilo? (i was including rifle rounds in that measure)
the grips in dem days were DESIGNED to allow the pistol to roll back in the hand when fired. that's the hump-backed grip.



huh. now here we need to consider that .45acp is just that. 45 AUTOMATIC colt pistol calibre.
half the recoil (not half, but a bit) goes into racking the action. the .44 mag specified is a revolver, 100% of that recoil is going through the frame.
45"non magnum" is a flat shooting, hard hitting calibre, being big bore and medium velocity, it shoots "softer" than a 9mm para.
.45 acp has a lighter projectile, and a lighter powder load than 44 mag.
i'm not entirely sure what your point was. so i'm going to have another coffee and smoke.

asides, really, how many shots do you think y' need with a 44 mag?

and to whomever posted those vids. i didn't watch them, but they look like compact automatics, 38 or 9mm, i can't speculate on the loadins but i'm gussing they're light. i'm also guessing the models are fair used to being shot. in addition, full projectile velocity may well not be attained since they're shooting "point blank" and likely using HP or wadcutter rounds which will have less smack down anyway.

18.5 lb of recoil is the same weather it's measured in a light weight gun or something heavy,it's still 18.5 lb.
And what's Dem days your on about,my current manual is last years,,not dem fuckin' days.
plus.I think I'll take the word of a recognised expert on the fact the 44mag is not a combat weapon thanks.
BTW you never mentioned that you consider a long rifle that shoots a 600g projectile a personal carry weapon,you were dribbling on about handguns,,,hope that wasn't to long ago for you to remember.
I do understand about stoners and short term memory,so take your time.
Here's a hint,,look up what type of rifle shoots a 600g projectile and you might work out for your self why most people think your full of shit.

[Akzle]

The S&W 50cal is the most powerful handgun made and that includes rifle and shotgun round pistols. It is a big heavy gun that is really uncomfortable (and expensive!) to shoot.
dat the m500 or something ehh? seen the sub-compact one? it's still on their X frame or whatever they call it, but it's a snub nose. .50AE is not to be fucked with.


18.5 lb of recoil is the same weather it's measured in a light weight gun or something heavy,it's still 18.5 lb.
oh wow. really. i didn't know that. you're so enlightening i might have to jack off.

i'm not even sure where this recoil lark came into it. 18.5 (presumably) FT/lbs of energy, in a 3 kilo gun, will be significantly less FELT RECOIL than in a 1/2kg one.
for the benefit of the FJs out there: heavier weapon= less felt recoil


And what's Dem days your on about,my current manual is last years,,not dem fuckin' days. i think it's you who's struggling to keep up. my "dem days" comment was on the design on the pistol grip of the colt peacemaker - arguably the most kickarse weapon ever. my comment was that the grip allowed the pistol to rotate in the hand, working with the muzzle flip induced by recoil. modern pistols (automatics) do not do this so much, as they are designed to recoil a lot flatter, to stay on target/ for follow up shots.

plus.I think I'll take the word of a recognised expert on the fact the 44mag is not a combat weapon thanks. take whoever's word you like (and stick it up your... err. nose.) i don't recall ever promoting it a revolver as either a "combat" weapon, nor .44mag as a "combat" calibre,
nor, infact do i recall laying out "combat" scenarios. i believe, if my indica-breakfast memory serves me right, that the original scenario was a concealed/open carry weapon to be toted in a movie theatre to engage some dick on a shooting spree.
also, if you talk to your "combat" experts, they'll probably tell you that a revolver is oft' the weapon of choice for a lot of off dutys.


BTW you never mentioned that you consider a long rifle that shoots a 600g projectile a personal carry weapon, you were dribbling on about handguns,,,hope that wasn't to long ago for you to remember.pray were you talking about this?:

a 'gun' focuses an explosion in one direction.
it usually weighs somewhere in the order of 1/2-3 kilograms, give or take.
i can easily see how you'd mistake "gun" for "personal carry weapon" seeing as how i'm so fucking baked :doobey:, it's a logical conclusion to draw.

[Swoop]

A canadian workmate (when hunting back in his home country) used to carry a .44mag revolver with a 2inch barrel. It was his "last chance" bear gun. It had no other purpose.
If you didn't want to be eaten by a hungry fur-covered beast then this might do the job.


Maybe Hollywood has special bullets?
Don't forget the "special guns" that don't require reloading...:(

[ducatilover]

i'm not even sure where this recoil lark came into it. 18.5 (presumably) FT/lbs of energy, in a 3 kilo gun, will be significantly less FELT RECOIL than in a 1/2kg one.
for the benefit of the FJs out there: heavier weapon= less felt recoil



AA12.

:2thumbsup 'nuff siad.

[Akzle]

AA12.

:2thumbsup 'nuff siad.

they are AWESOME :D

[scumdog]

they are AWESOME :D


Now all you need is a pistol that 'doesn't recoil' like that...

[scumdog]

AA12.

:2thumbsup 'nuff siad.

Kewl-as.
As long as you have a big gunny-sack full of mags!:lol:

[Akzle]

Kewl-as.
As long as you have a big gunny-sack full of mags!:lol:

drum mags bro.
two welded together.

but really.. how many double aught rounds do you need?

[scumdog]

drum mags bro.
two welded together.

but really.. how many double aught rounds do you need?

I was thinking slugs!:eek5:

[Akzle]

I was thinking slugs!:eek5:

then there'd be no excuse for collateral...

but hlyfknsht have you seen what the 'sabot' slugs do to a 200 gallon drum!?

[ducatilover]

Poofters.

Belt feed.

[scumdog]

then there'd be no excuse for collateral...

but hlyfknsht have you seen what the 'sabot' slugs do to a 200 gallon drum!?

Yes!


Not a whole mags worth though:wacko:

[pritch]

then there'd be no excuse for collateral...

but hlyfknsht have you seen what the 'sabot' slugs do to a 200 gallon drum!?

That's a big drum. I guess those sabot slugs would be real handy if you were ever attacked by a big drum? :whistle:

[scumdog]

That's a big drum. I guess those sabot slugs would be real handy if you were ever attacked by a big drum? :whistle:

C'mon pritch - ya trying to make it obvious Axzle can't tell the difference between gallons and litres??:crazy:

[Akzle]

C'mon pritch - ya trying to make it obvious Axzle can't tell the difference between gallons and litres??:crazy:

yeah, well. as it was.
(i was thinking of 200 litre)
but yes. invasion of the drums. or bears with lasers in their eyes. maybe even jackoffs that shoot up movie theatres.
(just imagine the noise.... he'd poo hisself)

[Timber020]

yeah. because how many pistols do you keep that weight 3 kilo? (i was including rifle rounds in that measure)
the grips in dem days were DESIGNED to allow the pistol to roll back in the hand when fired. that's the hump-backed grip.



huh. now here we need to consider that .45acp is just that. 45 AUTOMATIC colt pistol calibre.
half the recoil (not half, but a bit) goes into racking the action. the .44 mag specified is a revolver, 100% of that recoil is going through the frame.
45"non magnum" is a flat shooting, hard hitting calibre, being big bore and medium velocity, it shoots "softer" than a 9mm para.
.45 acp has a lighter projectile, and a lighter powder load than 44 mag.


Very little recoil is lost through the slide, but its spread more over a long period of time. most of the difference is the barrel being higher from the point of grip. Revolvers also loose more power due to the gapes in front of the chamber compared to an auto. moving the slide costs about 10 to 20fpm in round speed, which isnt really that much.

[Akzle]

Very little recoil is lost through the slide, but its spread more over a long period of time. most of the difference is the barrel being higher from the point of grip. Revolvers also loose more power due to the gapes in front of the chamber compared to an auto. moving the slide costs about 10 to 20fpm in round speed, which isnt really that much.

feet per minute?? that'd be .6-1.2 fps?
interesting comparison, i'd be interested to know how and where that was done...

that'd depend entirely on teh revolver. i've done seen revolvers silenced to the point of silence. literally you can hear the bar come up and the hammer strike, but not the discharge.
cheers for your input. (i'm pretty sure i've already mentioned that autos are designed to recoil flat - you've just explained it)

[misterO]

A silenced revolver?

[Timber020]

feet per minute?? that'd be .6-1.2 fps?
interesting comparison, i'd be interested to know how and where that was done...

that'd depend entirely on teh revolver. i've done seen revolvers silenced to the point of silence. literally you can hear the bar come up and the hammer strike, but not the discharge.
cheers for your input. (i'm pretty sure i've already mentioned that autos are designed to recoil flat - you've just explained it)

sorry I did mean fps. I guy I used to work with at a shooting range did a test many moons back, he was a sniper in the coast guard of all things.
Where did you see this so well silenced revolver?

[Akzle]

A silenced revolver?

weapons with sealed breeches are the only ones that can be "silenced" properly. if it's semi/auto gas escapes and makes noise when the chamber opens.

[SMOKEU]

And they keep on shooting (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8084565/28-dead-in-Connecticut-school-shooting).

[mashman]

And they keep on shooting (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8084565/28-dead-in-Connecticut-school-shooting).

I dunno, white men and their guns... when they run out of ragheads and coons to shoot at, they turn on the kids... such a dangerous breed.

[SMOKEU]

I dunno, white men and their guns... when they run out of ragheads and coons to shoot at, they turn on the kids... such a dangerous breed.

Probably some pissed off, white trash redneck conservative. There are plenty of snackbars and niggers to shoot over there.

[BMWST?]

And they keep on shooting (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8084565/28-dead-in-Connecticut-school-shooting).

And deny the proliferation of guns have any part on the proceedings

[puddytat]

And deny the proliferation of guns have any part on the proceedings

Unfortuantely if they ever got round to trying to do something about it (the Govt) ,it will end up starting their second civil war.....

[Kickaha]

Most retarded post I've seen so far was "One man with a gun could have stopped this" Hey dickhead one man with a gun killed all these people and you're using it to justify gun ownership?, where was your one man with a gun stopping it at Colombine, University of Texas, Red lake, Virginia Tech or any of their other school shootings

Looks like they have a quite a long history of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States

[BMWST?]

Motor vehicles are a (potentially) far more dangerous weapon than a gun will ever be.

I think you need to think that through for a second.1(just one) military type assult rifle can kill many many people in a few seconds.There are more guns in america than cars i would think

[BMWST?]

Most retarded post I've seen so far was "One man with a gun could have stopped this" Hey dickhead one man with a gun killed all these people and you're using it to justify gun ownership?, where was your one man with a gun stopping it at Colombine, University of Texas, Red lake, Virginia Tech or any of their other school shootings

Looks like they have a quite a long history of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States


yes some argue that if teachers were armed they could have targeted the shooter.RIGHT.In this case the first person shot at the school appears to have been his mother,a teacher.

[SMOKEU]

I think you need to think that through for a second.1(just one) military type assult rifle can kill many many people in a few seconds.There are more guns in america than cars i would think

It's not guns that are dangerous, it's people with guns that are dangerous.

[scumdog]

I think you need to think that through for a second.1(just one) military type assult rifle can kill many many people in a few seconds.There are more guns in america than cars i would think

Sort of like in Switzerland...

[Edbear]

The world is rife with psycho's and where guns are freely available they will use them.

Gun enthusiasts know there is "Something about guns" that is fascinating, like knives, swords and other weapons. Those who love them tend to use them and seek opportunities to practise their skills with them.

It "naturally" leads to an attitude where the weapon is higher on the list of options than it would be for those without the same level of interest.

Many pro gun/weapon persons argue that most gun owners are responsible, but KB is a cross-section of society and the same people argue that the rules don't apply to them because they are better than everyone else. They should be able to have complete freedom of choice because they are more mature and have superior judgement to the "average" person.

It's the old question of who decides the level of skill and responsibility for each one. The psycho nutters also think they know what they are doing.

[scumdog]

To put it in perspective:


The largest mass killing in this country was 9-11, ~ 3000 dead. Weapons were box cutters and airplanes.

Next was Oklahoma City, 168 dead. Weapon was a truck load of fertilizer.

Then 87 dead from arson at the Happy Land social club, The Bronx, New York, 1990. Weapon was a can of gasoline.

The largest school massacre was in Bath, Michigan, in 1927. 44 dead. Weapon was explosives.

And then don't forget 2011 when Norway which has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world, and yet that massacre still took place tragedy still occurred.


Gun laws don't fix evil (or more likely mad) people.

It's the people that need to be fixed.

[Edbear]

To put it in perspective:


The largest mass killing in this country was 9-11, ~ 3000 dead. Weapons were box cutters and airplanes.

Next was Oklahoma City, 168 dead. Weapon was a truck load of fertilizer.

Then 87 dead from arson at the Happy Land social club, The Bronx, New York, 1990. Weapon was a can of gasoline.

The largest school massacre was in Bath, Michigan, in 1927. 44 dead. Weapon was explosives.

And then don't forget 2011 when Norway which has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world, and yet that massacre still took place tragedy still occurred.


Gun laws don't fix evil (or more likely mad) people.

It's the people that need to be fixed.

Therein lies the problem. Identifying the nutters before they do it. Who checks on you to decide whether you are a responsible gun owner and removes your weapons from you? Who noses into your life to decide if you are sane or not?

Same applies to all laws, who decides how fast you are capable of driving, or maintaining your vehicle or handling your booze? Who Polices it?

[SMOKEU]

Therein lies the problem. Identifying the nutters before they do it. Who checks on you to decide whether you are a responsible gun owner and removes your weapons from you? Who noses into your life to decide if you are sane or not?


That's the job of the police. Then again, licensed firearms holders are usually responsible people. It's the illegally possessed firearms that tend to get used in crimes.

[FJRider]

Many pro gun/weapon persons argue that most gun owners are responsible, but KB is a cross-section of society and the same people argue that the rules don't apply to them because they are better than everyone else. They should be able to have complete freedom of choice because they are more mature and have superior judgement to the "average" person.



End result is ... that the authorities clamp down their restrictions on the only people they can .... those WITH a license (for either). They have no way to control the unlicensed ... until it's after the act. (or caught IN the act)

[davereid]

Most school killings don't happen with guns in america.

They happen with knives in China.

Do we need therefore to bring in knife control ?

[scumdog]

Most school killings don't happen with guns in america.

They happen with knives in China.

Do we need therefore to bring in knife control ?

We already have knife control; 'Unlawful possession of a knife' kinda thing:

13A Possession of knives

(1) Every person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or a fine not exceeding $2,000 who, in any public place, without reasonable excuse, has any knife in his or her possession.

And it's working SO well too....:whistle:

[davereid]

We already have knife control; 'Unlawful possession of a knife' kinda thing

And it's working SO well too....:whistle:

How about axe registration then ?

William Unek was an African police constable and mass murderer who killed a total of 57 people in two separate spree killings three years apart. His first murder spree occurred near Mahagi, Belgian Congo in 1954, where he killed 21 people with an axe, before escaping and finally ending up in Tanganyika. Apparently because of social misunderstandings with his boss, Unek went on a second rampage which began in the early hours of February 11, 1957 where he killed another 36 people

[Kickaha]

How about axe registration then ?

William Unek was an African police constable and mass murderer who killed a total of 57 people in two separate spree killings three years apart. His first murder spree occurred near Mahagi, Belgian Congo in 1954, where he killed 21 people with an axe, before escaping and finally ending up in Tanganyika. Apparently because of social misunderstandings with his boss, Unek went on a second rampage which began in the early hours of February 11, 1957 where he killed another 36 people

He didn't kill all of them with an axe though, shot 26, stabbed one, strangled one and burnt three out of the second lot, so out of a total of 57 it says 26 were killed with an axe

[scumdog]

And don't forge tCharles Joseph Whitman in 1966, another one of lifes losers.

It's no 21st centrury thing this mass shooting...

Or the Bath School disaster in 1927, it killed 38 primary-school aged children, two teachers, four other adults and the killer himself and injured about 58 more.
Done with bombs.

[jasonu]

It's not guns that are dangerous, it's people with guns that are dangerous.

Correct that man.

You can make all the new rules and regulations you want. You can restrict the type of weapons/accessories sold, insist gun owners hand in their weapons etc. The only ones that MIGHT follow new rules and hand their stuff in will be the LAW ABIDING owners which will leave the majority of the guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have them and there is fuck all anyone can do about that.

[jasonu]

Therein lies the problem. Identifying the nutters before they do it. Who checks on you to decide whether you are a responsible gun owner and removes your weapons from you? Who noses into your life to decide if you are sane or not?

Same applies to all laws, who decides how fast you are capable of driving, or maintaining your vehicle or handling your booze? Who Polices it?

The guy that shot up the mall in Clakamas, Oregon this week nicked the gun he used. There is fuck all anyone could have done about that.

[Kickaha]

You can make all the new rules and regulations you want. You can restrict the type of weapons/accessories sold, insist gun owners hand in their weapons etc. The only ones that MIGHT follow new rules and hand their stuff in will be the LAW ABIDING owners which will leave the majority of the guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have them and there is fuck all anyone can do about that.
How many of these shootings are done by people who are law abiding and legally own the weapons used though?

[davereid]

How many of these shootings are done by people who are law abiding and legally own the weapons used though?

None.

There has never been a mass murder done by a law abiding person.
Mass murders may only be done within the law by governments.

[Kickaha]

There has never been a mass murder done by a law abiding person
Well law abiding up until the switch in their head shorted out

[scumdog]

Dunblane for one.

And it cost the top cop his job for being slack enough to allow Hamilton to keep his guns.

Ryan at Hungersford was another.

Not many DON'T exhibit signs that they're going to do something stupid though, it's acting on the 'signs' that needs to be focussed on.

EDIT: The idiot Bird at Cumbria was another, drove around shooting from his taxi, mainly using a double-barrelled shotgun, quite a few of those shot survived.

[PrincessBandit]

Guns don't kill people.

People and guns kill people.

God bless America.


It's not guns that are dangerous, it's people with guns that are dangerous.

Ah, katman page 1 and smokeu page 4 yet both on the same page...

Anyone can pretty much get what they require to commit heinous crimes if they're sufficienty determined to do it, whether it be weapons, poisons, vehicles etc. And for victims, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time then your number is likely to be up. Anything can be used for either good or bad and those who choose the "bad" option can't usually be predicted or protected from. Sounds like a sucky yet realistic view of things.

[Edbear]

Ah, katman page 1 and smokeu page 4 yet both on the same page...

Anyone can pretty much get what they require to commit heinous crimes if they're sufficienty determined to do it, whether it be weapons, poisons, vehicles etc. And for victims, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time then your number is likely to be up. Anything can be used for either good or bad and those who choose the "bad" option can't usually be predicted or protected from. Sounds like a sucky yet realistic view of things.

Yup! In each case, hindsight shows "clear signs" of impending doom. Trouble is that no-one seems to be able to pick up on these so-called clear signs.

Everyone wants TPTB to nab these psycho's before they commit heinous acts, but no-one wants "Big Brother" interferring in their lives. Catch 22?

[Berries]

Catch 22?
I think in the good ole US of A it is actually Catch 44.

[Swoop]

Gun laws don't fix evil (or more likely mad) people.

It's the people that need to be fixed.

A mental health issue is normally at the forefront of the problem.

Slightly disturbing is this (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10854384)suggestion today.
Security guards ARMED.

Scary? Yup.

[puddytat]

then it'll be 5m high fences topped with razor wire, just like prisons, to keep the kids safe.
Ban people I reckon....you just cant trust the fuckers.
Not when 89 out of 100 people own a gun in the US.And its not for Deer. Its because they're scared of their neighbour,blacks,wetbacks,rapists, burglars,muslims,right wing christians,the govt,zombies ,co-workers......aliens....bears, snakes, vampires or just about any other thing on the planet.

What a sad world leader.

[SMOKEU]

Yup! In each case, hindsight shows "clear signs" of impending doom. Trouble is that no-one seems to be able to pick up on these so-called clear signs.

Everyone wants TPTB to nab these psycho's before they commit heinous acts, but no-one wants "Big Brother" interferring in their lives. Catch 22?

+1 to that. People are complaining about too much government intervention like spying and ANPR vans. How far is all this going to go?

[pete376403]

Not very far at all (in Tennessee anyway) - doing away with restrictions on carrying guns to work (cos everyone knows the workplace is a dangerous place)
http://www.memphisflyer.com/JacksonBaker/archives/2012/08/18/state-sen-jim-kyle-states-gun-carry-restrictions-may-soon-be-extinct

[blue rider]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/15/1170243/-All-the-little-bills-and-all-the-little-caskets


this times colletaral damage (aka victims)

20 kids aged 6 and 7 and their teachers
and 1 mother shot dead by her son with her own gun
the weapons used were those of the gunmans mothers.

[mashman]

Has there been any reason given as to why he popped?

[Road kill]

Remington markets Zombie rounds in 12 guage,,,,FUCKEN A BRO

Anyway, every one of those gun killers would of used something else if they didn't have access to guns.
There's no shortage of other shit to use.

So no matter what "it is always going to happen and will continue no matter what items are banned or laws are changed.

In most of the multi victim crimes including gun crime in NZ "the shooter "HAS BEEN WELL KNOWN TO POLICE" but the Police have chosen to do nothing about it for what ever reason.

What ever,,,,but leave the average gun owner out of this because we are in fact the largest group of Police vetted and approved law abiding people in this country and we are not responsible for the state of mental health in NZ "nore are we the whipping boys when the powers that be,,do nothing.

So sod off aye :oi-grr:

[SMOKEU]

Has there been any reason given as to why he popped?

For teh lulz, I imagine.


Remington markets Zombie rounds in 12 guage,,,,FUCKEN A BRO



Are they buckshot or something?

[Mom]

Has there been any reason given as to why he popped?

Um, he was a damaged soul, raised by a female that "obviously" imparted her wisdom (it was her guns he stole, and she was his first victim). This is a cultural issue for America. So, so , so sad for the families involved here. NOW would be a good time for a strong leader to step up and fuck the lot of them and get some gun control in place. Maybe a bit of a mini revolution is in order.

Here speaketh a woman that has supported her son to own automatic weapons!

[pete376403]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/15/1170243/-All-the-little-bills-and-all-the-little-caskets


this times colletaral damage (aka victims)

20 kids aged 6 and 7 and their teachers
and 1 mother shot dead by her son with her own gun
the weapons used were those of the gunmans mothers.

From the dailykos page:

in one year, guns murdered:
17 people in Finland
35 in Australia
39 in England and Wales
60 in Spain
194 in Germany
200 in Canada
9,484 in the United States

From the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

[scumdog]

From the dailykos page:

in one year, guns murdered:
17 people in Finland
35 in Australia
39 in England and Wales
60 in Spain
194 in Germany
200 in Canada
9,484 in the United States

From the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Amazing they found so many countries with the same population number as the USA...:shifty:

I guess all the countries NOT mentioned must have had a different population size...

[Road kill]

Um, he was a damaged soul, raised by a female that "obviously" imparted her wisdom (it was her guns he stole, and she was his first victim). This is a cultural issue for America. So, so , so sad for the families involved here. NOW would be a good time for a strong leader to step up and fuck the lot of them and get some gun control in place. Maybe a bit of a mini revolution is in order.

Here speaketh a woman that has supported her son to own automatic weapons!

So with this "gun control" the next nutter that can't get a gun will just use something else while law abiding gun owners get to wear the brunt of the "gun control" that didn't prevent anything.

So how's that fair to the huge group that did nothing wrong ?

I do Like the sound of your mini revolution though "What are we going to do first ?
Get our gov't to look at the real social issues that cause people to kill "or some thing equally unlikely ?

[Mom]

I do Like the sound of your mini revolution though "What are we going to do first ?
Get our gov't to look at the real social issues that cause people to kill "or some thing equally unlikely ?

Something like that!

[mashman]

Um, he was a damaged soul, raised by a female that "obviously" imparted her wisdom (it was her guns he stole, and she was his first victim). This is a cultural issue for America. So, so , so sad for the families involved here. NOW would be a good time for a strong leader to step up and fuck the lot of them and get some gun control in place. Maybe a bit of a mini revolution is in order.

Here speaketh a woman that has supported her son to own automatic weapons!

Mebee. Mebee not. Just curious why out of all of the days the kid had ever had, he'd choose that one.

[Mom]

Mebee. Mebee not. Just curious why out of all of the days the kid had ever had, he'd choose that one.

Who knows what tips the balance between ok, and not ok.

Sometimes it is a really fine line. I have had a bit of a close relationship with that fine line.

Never considered killing a bunch of kids mind :no:

[blue rider]

Why do people that are not going to war need assault rifles? Why do they need guns that shoot many bullets at a time at high speed? and why whould the restriction of assoult weapons and/or semi automatic uns/rifles diminish the right of someone to legally own a standard type gun.


i know really nothing about guns and weapons in general as I really don't find them apealing in any which way.

So to the gun owners, why would you promote the legal sale, (and the USA has some really lax regulations as to who can sell and who can buy) of military style weapons.
And why would you - the gun enthousiast - feel infringed by not having the right to buy a rifle akin to a kalachnikov.

please do enlighten me, cause I don't get it.

[awa355]

Why do people that are not going to war need assault rifles? Why do they need guns that shoot many bullets at a time at high speed? and why whould the restriction of assoult weapons and/or semi automatic uns/rifles diminish the right of someone to legally own a standard type gun.


i know really nothing about guns and weapons in general as I really don't find them apealing in any which way.

So to the gun owners, why would you promote the legal sale, (and the USA has some really lax regulations as to who can sell and who can buy) of military style weapons.
And why would you - the gun enthousiast - feel infringed by not having the right to buy a rifle akin to a kalachnikov.

please do enlighten me, cause I don't get it.

I guess you could apply the same line of questioning to the arguement for owning high powered bikes as opposed to 'senseable' bikes. Why buy a 170hp sports bike when a 50hp bike will do everything at legal speeds etc.

I think the gun culture in America is way beyond reigning in.

[mashman]

Why do people that are not going to war need assault rifles? Why do they need guns that shoot many bullets at a time at high speed? and why whould the restriction of assoult weapons and/or semi automatic uns/rifles diminish the right of someone to legally own a standard type gun.


i know really nothing about guns and weapons in general as I really don't find them apealing in any which way.

So to the gun owners, why would you promote the legal sale, (and the USA has some really lax regulations as to who can sell and who can buy) of military style weapons.
And why would you - the gun enthousiast - feel infringed by not having the right to buy a rifle akin to a kalachnikov.

please do enlighten me, cause I don't get it.

I found this useful:


then it'll be 5m high fences topped with razor wire, just like prisons, to keep the kids safe.
Ban people I reckon....you just cant trust the fuckers.
Not when 89 out of 100 people own a gun in the US.And its not for Deer. Its because they're scared of their neighbour,blacks,wetbacks,rapists, burglars,muslims,right wing christians,the govt,zombies ,co-workers......aliens....bears, snakes, vampires or just about any other thing on the planet.

What a sad world leader.

[scumdog]

Why do people that are not going to war need assault rifles? Why do they need guns that shoot many bullets at a time at high speed? and why whould the restriction of assoult weapons and/or semi automatic uns/rifles diminish the right of someone to legally own a standard type gun.

please do enlighten me, cause I don't get it.

Fruit-loops love the looks

Real shooters appreciate them differently - I've use one for goat-culling for example.

FYI: One of our own little massacres was performed by a person using single-shot shot-gun

(You put in a live shell, fire a shot, remove the empty shell, put another live shell in and you can go bang again, repeat as many times as neccessary)

[mashman]

Who knows what tips the balance between ok, and not ok.

Sometimes it is a really fine line. I have had a bit of a close relationship with that fine line.

Never considered killing a bunch of kids mind :no:

True. I guess we'll never know what pushes someone to get to that stage.

[scumdog]

True. I guess we'll never know what pushes someone to get to that stage.


I suspect a fair amount of it is linked to a vast loss of touch with reality..

[Mom]

In my experience of people that own/want to own/operate/fire/have fun with an automatic weapon, it is simply the ultimate weapon. A bit like our desire to own/ride/see our own :drool: ride. No different. There is far, far more involved in these horribly tragic shootings.

Here in NZ it is not easy to have these sort of weapons at your disposal legally, I am picking there are a few out there that are not legal. There are strict and vital steps you have to take to own or operate these kind of weapons. Our gun laws are reasonably robust.

We make mistakes here, and while you can legislate in an attempt to protect "gen pop" you can never get it completely right.

The States really need to review their laws regarding guns, perhaps the killing of babies (young children) will stir enough emotion to make something happen over there.

Not holding my breath here...

[Mom]

I suspect a fair amount of it is linked to a vast loss of touch with reality..

Mental health issues?

[blue rider]

Fruit-loops love the looks

Real shooters appreciate them differently - I've use one for goat-culling for example.

FYI: One of our own little massacres was performed by a person using single-shot shot-gun

(You put in a live shell, fire a shot, remove the empty shell, put another live shell in and you can go bang again, repeat as many times as neccessary)


goat culling? with an assault rifle? what do you use when you go wild pig hunting?

nope i don't understand it.

[scumdog]

Mental health issues?

In a word: Yes.

[Mom]

In a word: Yes.

Need to spread apparently...

How WUDE!!!!!!

[Macontour]

THis may explain a bit..........a classic from Bob Geldof and the Boomtown Rats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaHAvEEbQOE

[mashman]

I suspect a fair amount of it is linked to a vast loss of touch with reality..

What's the criteria for the gun ownership over here :shifty:

[scumdog]

What's the criteria for the gun ownership over here :shifty:

Go to you local cop-shop and tell them you want a catagory E firearms licence endorsement.

Then you'll find out what sort of hoops you can jump through.

[SMOKEU]

What's the criteria for the gun ownership over here :shifty:

A cat is pretty easy. B, C, D and E cat are a whole different story.

[rustic101]

THis may explain a bit..........a classic from Bob Geldof and the Boomtown Rats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaHAvEEbQOE


HistoryAccording to Geldof, he wrote the song after reading a telex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletypewriter_message) report at Georgia State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_State_University)'s campus radio station, WRAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRAS), on the shooting spree of 16-year-old Brenda Ann Spencer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer), who fired at children in a school playground at Grover Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, California on 29 January 1979, killing two adults and injuring eight children and one police officer. Spencer showed no remorse for her crime and her full explanation for her actions was "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don't_Like_Mondays#cite_note-1) The song was first performed less than a month later. Geldof explained how he wrote the song:

I was doing a radio interview in Atlanta with Fingers and there was a telex machine beside me. I read it as it came out. Not liking Mondays as a reason for doing somebody in is a bit strange. I was thinking about it on the way back to the hotel and I just said 'Silicon chip inside her head had switched to overload'. I wrote that down. And the journalists interviewing her said, 'Tell me why?' It was such a senseless act. It was the perfect senseless act and this was the perfect senseless reason for doing it. So perhaps I wrote the perfect senseless song to illustrate it. It wasn't an attempt to exploit tragedy.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don't_Like_Mondays#cite_note-Clarke-2)
Geldof had originally intended the song as a B-side, but changed his mind after the song was successful with audiences on the Rats' US tour.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don't_Like_Mondays#cite_note-Clarke-2) Spencer's family tried unsuccessfully to prevent the single from being released in the United States.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don't_Like_Mondays#cite_note-Clarke-2) Despite being a major hit in the United Kingdom, it only reached #73 on the US Billboard Hot 100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Hot_100).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don't_Like_Mondays#cite_note-3) The song was played regularly by album-oriented rock format radio stations in the United States throughout the 1980s, although radio stations in San Diego refrained from playing the track for some years in respect to local sensitivities about the shooting. The song became Number One in the UK single charts in July 1979. In the UK it won the Best Pop Song and Outstanding British Lyric categories at the Ivor Novello Awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Novello_Awards).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don't_Like_Mondays#cite_note-songfacts-4) It was subsequently covered by Tori Amos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tori_Amos) on her 2001 album Strange Little Girls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Little_Girls) and later by G4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G4_(band)) on their 2006 album Act Three (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_Three).

[BMWST?]

In my experience of people that own/want to own/operate/fire/have fun with an automatic weapon, it is simply the ultimate weapon. A bit like our desire to own/ride/see our own :drool: ride. No different. There is far, far more involved in these horribly tragic shootings.



Straw man argument.Owning a high powered motorcyle is dangerous,mostly to the operator,maybe one or two others.Owning an AR15,or AK 47 is a little bit different.No one...i repeat no one needs one of those,and if they want one its not operational..
I know,but it would make it a little bit harder on monday morning when you didnt want to go to school(thank Bob)
The whole escalation of guns vs more guns is not going to work either

[SMOKEU]

Straw man argument.Owning a high powered motorcyle is dangerous,mostly to the operator,maybe one or two others.Owning an AR15,or AK 47 is a little bit different.No one...i repeat no one needs one of those
r

Owning such a weapon will be essential for survival in the inevitable Islamic takeover.

[Usarka]

If the americans have the right to bear arms then why can't they carry them on planes?

[Kickaha]

So with this "gun control" the next nutter that can't get a gun will just use something else

Without a gun you'd struggle to kill as many people in as short a time, would he have got the same number if he'd only had a knife or a baseball bat?

[puddytat]

Owning such a weapon will be essential for survival in the inevitable Islamic takeover.

Bro, comments like that will make it real hard for you to get one(if you dont already have several)...

[mashman]

There was a number of spree killings around that day, Seattle Mall, China knife attack in a school no deaths but wounded about 20 kiddies, and somewhere else too

...and opinions

True that this isn't just a mental illness thing... no doubt there are plenty who are unhinged, I guess we all, well some of us, maybe just me, have days where we "fantasize" about laying waste to those we deem surplus to requirements. I do wonder how these guys slip into the state of mind where it becomes that all encompassing train of thought. Why is one day any different to another etc... Are the signs really there? or is it just a bit of jazzed up media hype that makes every "sane" person as one of your commentators notes. Strange things we be.

[jasonu]

Amazing they found so many countries with the same population number as the USA...:shifty:

I guess all the countries NOT mentioned must have had a different population size...

It is called 'propaganda' and the figures are generally twisted and or manipulated in the favour of the publishers stand point.

[jasonu]

Why do people that are not going to war need assault rifles? Why do they need guns that shoot many bullets at a time at high speed?

please do enlighten me, cause I don't get it.

Because they are fun to shoot (IMO).

The same arguement could be used against big sport bikes.
ie Why do people that are not in the World Superbikes need to ride a GSXR1000 capable of doing 185mph when a GN250 will get them to the shops just as well.
Not quite the same thing I know.

[scumdog]

Without a gun you'd struggle to kill as many people in as short a time, would he have got the same number if he'd only had a knife or a baseball bat?


Seems to work in China...

[scumdog]

goat culling? with an assault rifle? what do you use when you go wild pig hunting?

nope i don't understand it.

So if I had used 'normal' semi-auto hunting rifle with a large magazine that would have been alright then??

BTW: Slack-jawed mouth-breathing journos lump ALL military-looking rifles as 'assault-rifles', - even bolt-action ones at times.

I suggest you look up what constitutes an 'assault rifle'. (Or in NZ, a m.s.s.a., a very flawed bit of legislation.

[Kickaha]

Seems to work in China...
22 injuries but no deaths on the same day, you think it would have been the same if he'd had a gun? maybe he wasn't trying hard enough

[SMOKEU]

So if I had used 'normal' semi-auto hunting rifle with a large magazine that would have been alright then??

BTW: Slack-jawed mouth-breathing journos lump ALL military-looking rifles as 'assault-rifles', - even bolt-action ones at times.

I suggest you look up what constitutes an 'assault rifle'. (Or in NZ, a m.s.s.a., a very flawed bit of legislation.

What kind of rifles do you guys use on the job?

[pete376403]

Amazing they found so many countries with the same population number as the USA...:shifty:

I guess all the countries NOT mentioned must have had a different population size...

And I guess everyone needs a semi-auto (Never know when one might encounter those pesky goats, eh?)

OK, looking a bit further -

Comparing to countries that would rate as "third-world" - Caribbean, South America,etc,

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/

Annual homicide rate for firearms

Because the U.S. is so big, it's better to compare the frequency of firearm homicides per capita, usually expressed as firearm homicides per 100,000 in national population.

According to the U.N., the U.S. had 3.0 firearm homicides per 100,000 in population in 2009. But there were 14 other nations that had higher rates in 2009, primarily in Latin America and the Caribbean: Honduras (57.6), Jamaica (47.2), St. Kitts and Nevis (44.4), Venezuela (39.0), Guatemala (38.5), Colombia (28.1), Trinidad & Tobago (27.3), Panama (19.3), Dominican Republic (16.9), Bahamas (15.4), Belize (15.4), Mexico (7.9), Paraguay (7.3) and Nicaragua (5.9). Three other nations had higher rates in 2008: El Salvador (39.9), Brazil (18.1) and Ecuador (12.7).

So the U.S. doesn’t rank no. 1 when firearm homicides are adjusted for population

But when comparing US with similar "high-income countries", then the US is top of the table:

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Abstract/2011/01000/Homicide,_Suicide,_and_Unintentional_Firearm.35.as px

Methods: A cross-sectional analysis of the World Health Organization Mortality Database analyzes homicides and suicides (both disaggregated as firearm related and non-firearm related) and unintentional and undetermined firearm deaths from 23 populous high-income Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development countries that provided data to the World Health Organization for 2003.

Results: The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries. For US males, firearm homicide rates were 22.0 times higher, and for US females, firearm homicide rates were 11.4 times higher. The US firearm suicide rates were 5.8 times higher than in the other countries, though overall suicide rates were 30% lower. The US unintentional firearm deaths were 5.2 times higher than in the other countries. Among these 23 countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86% of women killed by firearms were US women, and 87% of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were US children.

Conclusions: The United States has far higher rates of firearm deaths—firearm homicides, firearm suicides, and unintentional firearm deaths compared with other high-income countries. The US overall suicide rate is not out of line with these countries, but the United States is an outlier in terms of our overall homicide rate.

[imdying]

To put it in perspective:

The largest mass killing in this country was 9-11, ~ 3000 dead. Weapons were box cutters and airplanes.

Next was Oklahoma City, 168 dead. Weapon was a truck load of fertilizer.

Then 87 dead from arson at the Happy Land social club, The Bronx, New York, 1990. Weapon was a can of gasoline.

The largest school massacre was in Bath, Michigan, in 1927. 44 dead. Weapon was explosives.And to put that into perspective... every year more Americans die from hand guns (over 10,000, every year) than all of those events combined, times two.

[imdying]

Without a gun you'd struggle to kill as many people in as short a timeActually I'm not so sure... I reckon I could build a shoulder launched anti aircraft missile inside of a year, range of maybe 400 metres. You could sit yourself at the end of the Christchurch Intl Airport runway and nail a 747 as it took off. Hell for even less effort you could make an unguided rocket version with an even larger warhead. The proliferation of cheap micro controllers and UAV instructions all of the net makes things like that far easier than even a few years ago.

[nzmikey]

have a look at this link : http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2012/12/how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/4172/

& for those of you that cant be arsed reading lotsa words ...


Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world; tribal-conflict-torn Yemen is ranked second, with a rate about half of America's.


In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally.

[Naki Rat]

There was actually someone on the radio news promoting that the school headmistress could have "taken the shooter's head off" if she had had a gun in her desk. It brought this to mind

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fCtD3OJ-_Es" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[awa355]

I see an article in todays news about another shooting at a shopping mall carpark. in California. 50 shots fired, nobody hurt. Same page has a story from a Hollywood actor saying the entertainment industry has to accept some responsibility for the violence.

[Road kill]

Why do people that are not going to war need assault rifles? Why do they need guns that shoot many bullets at a time at high speed? and why whould the restriction of assoult weapons and/or semi automatic uns/rifles diminish the right of someone to legally own a standard type gun.


i know really nothing about guns and weapons in general as I really don't find them apealing in any which way.

So to the gun owners, why would you promote the legal sale, (and the USA has some really lax regulations as to who can sell and who can buy) of military style weapons.
And why would you - the gun enthousiast - feel infringed by not having the right to buy a rifle akin to a kalachnikov.

please do enlighten me, cause I don't get it.

I'd feel infringed because I like all other legal firearms users in this country have actually had to prove ourselves before we were given our firearms licences.

And as I already said,,but nobody has responded to" we legal firearms owners are the largest group of police vetted and approved people in this country,,,and it is not us creating the problems

It's not as if we are like most bikers that get their bike licence and then go straight out and break the very laws they have just agreed to abide by.

As to why I'd like a Chinese copy of an M14,because I do and under NZ law I have earnt the right to,,end of story.

So how would you feel about having the right to own a bike taken from you because of what either criminals or the mentaly ill that have nothing to do with you have got up to.

[BMWST?]

Because they are fun to shoot (IMO).

The same arguement could be used against big sport bikes.
ie Why do people that are not in the World Superbikes need to ride a GSXR1000 capable of doing 185mph when a GN250 will get them to the shops just as well.
Not quite the same thing I know.


this is a bloody stupid argument.A military style automatic is designed for one thing.To despatch as many peole as possible.That is not the design breif of a GSXR 1000

[SMOKEU]

I'd feel infringed because I like all other legal firearms users in this country have actually had to prove ourselves before we were given our firearms licences.



How the fuck did you get a firearms license?!

[carburator]

What kind of rifles do you guys use on the job?

L1A1 with a L1A2 barrel and lower..
bell and carson stock with a limbsaver

thats old faitful, bit of a battleaxle built out of four SLR's

[blue rider]

I'd feel infringed because I like all other legal firearms users in this country have actually had to prove ourselves before we were given our firearms licences.

And as I already said,,but nobody has responded to" we legal firearms owners are the largest group of police vetted and approved people in this country,,,and it is not us creating the problems

It's not as if we are like most bikers that get their bike licence and then go straight out and break the very laws they have just agreed to abide by.

As to why I'd like a Chinese copy of an M14,because I do and under NZ law I have earnt the right to,,end of story.

So how would you feel about having the right to own a bike taken from you because of what either criminals or the mentaly ill that have nothing to do with you have got up to.

guns are made to kill somethings. bikes are made to get from a to b with the most fun in mind - i don't think you can compare the two. And yes guns are made for killing, target practice is just that, target practice.

But in saying that, the killer of this particular mass shooting got the gun of his mothers whom he killed before he went on his shooting spree. His mothers guns and rifles were all legal, and she was the one who took the killer to legal target practice etc.

I personally don't care if you have guns and what nots....but if others have access to it and than go boom kill a bunch of kiddies in a school, or patrons at a restaurant etc etc than I think the question as to why these highly powerful weapons are available to Jo and Jane Six Pack without many checks and balances, and why there are no restrictions on how to keep them is valid and should be answered. Why? Because it is in general unarmed people that get killed.

At the end of the day your or my opinion is moot and worthless in this case, but I pity the parents that have to live without their children, i pity the husbands and parents and children that have to live without their partners/children and mothers. Just because some sick puppy got a weapon from his equally sick mother (as per her sister she was of the black helicopter crowd waiting for armageddon) to shoot a bunch of 6 years old and their teachers.

It is not us here discussing the events that have thrown egg at the face of the gun lobby. It was a 20 year old, who took the legal weapons of his mother to kill.

Because at the end of the day, no one needs semi automatic or fully automatic weapons unless they belive there is a war coming, - and yes scumdog I have absolutly no idea about guns and rifles, but surely goats got killed before the AK47 was invented.

[Road kill]

How the fuck did you get a firearms license?!

I knew our local arms officer at the time from our years of bowhunting and club membership togeather.

I knew the guy from the Mountain saftey council that does the licencing classes from all the MSC courses I've done.

I know the local inspector that comes out an does the safe and security inspections,,because he's a mate.

I'm not actually the nut I come across as on this site at times.

Thank you very much "please come again.

[scumdog]

and yes scumdog I have absolutly no idea about guns and rifles, but surely goats got killed before the AK47 was invented.


You could do youself a nasty injury while cutting their throats, especially if you're doing them by the dozen...<_<

Mate, there's a gazzilion semi-automatic rifles here in NZ, they're everywhere, OK, not all look like those (shock, horror, gasp) dreaded 'assault rifles' - but have the same killing ability.

It's not the guns, it's the psyche of the people living in the country - have a look at Canadas figures vs USA.
From memory the fire-arm ownership per capita is about the same in both countries - yet look at the disparity in massacres.

[Road kill]

guns are made to kill somethings. bikes are made to get from a to b with the most fun in mind - i don't think you can compare the two. And yes guns are made for killing, target practice is just that, target practice.

But in saying that, the killer of this particular mass shooting got the gun of his mothers whom he killed before he went on his shooting spree. His mothers guns and rifles were all legal, and she was the one who took the killer to legal target practice etc.

I personally don't care if you have guns and what nots....but if others have access to it and than go boom kill a bunch of kiddies in a school, or patrons at a restaurant etc etc than I think the question as to why these highly powerful weapons are available to Jo and Jane Six Pack without many checks and balances, and why there are no restrictions on how to keep them is valid and should be answered. Why? Because it is in general unarmed people that get killed.

At the end of the day your or my opinion is moot and worthless in this case, but I pity the parents that have to live without their children, i pity the husbands and parents and children that have to live without their partners/children and mothers. Just because some sick puppy got a weapon from his equally sick mother (as per her sister she was of the black helicopter crowd waiting for armageddon) to shoot a bunch of 6 years old and their teachers.

It is not us here discussing the events that have thrown egg at the face of the gun lobby. It was a 20 year old, who took the legal weapons of his mother to kill.

Because at the end of the day, no one needs semi automatic or fully automatic weapons unless they belive there is a war coming, - and yes scumdog I have absolutly no idea about guns and rifles, but surely goats got killed before the AK47 was invented.

Ok,don't answer the question.

I didn't say anything about this particular case "nore did I compere bikes to guns

I replied to your question about how I feel and I asked how you would feel if "your" right to own something you felt you had a right to own was removed because of somebody else's actions.

But don't let that get in the way of your "admitted" ignorance based rant.

[mashman]

I replied to your question about how I feel and I asked how you would feel if "your" right to own something you felt you had a right to own was removed because of somebody else's actions.

That sounds like the argument for the prohibition of "dangerous" illegal substances v's "dangerous" legal substances. A right indeed.

[oneofsix]

You could do youself a nasty injury while cutting their throats, especially if you're doing them by the dozen...<_<

Mate, there's a gazzilion semi-automatic rifles here in NZ, they're everywhere, OK, not all look like those (shock, horror, gasp) dreaded 'assault rifles' - but have the same killing ability.

It's not the guns, it's the psyche of the people living in the country - have a look at Canadas figures vs USA.
From memory the fire-arm ownership per capita is about the same in both countries - yet look at the disparity in massacres.

Might be the type of guns they are allowed. Those that own "assault rifles" don't do so for the automatic feature but because they look military and make the small penis feel like big guns. Just like Pit Bulls might be able to be "nice" dogs as many pure bred lovers claim however who tends to want to own the dog with the "vicious" streak and why, it the same group of small dicks that will want the assault rifles. Not sure but my feeling here is that Canada doesn't allow assault rifles nor hand guns. The Swiss have more guns per head than the USA but again restrict types and also train the owner, most through military service.

[blue rider]

Ok,don't answer the question.

I didn't say anything about this particular case "nore did I compere bikes to guns

I replied to your question about how I feel and I asked how you would feel if "your" right to own something you felt you had a right to own was removed because of somebody else's actions.

But don't let that get in the way of your "admitted" ignorance based rant.

thanks for your kind reply much appreciated.

my answer, if that super duper bike can kill 20 kids in less than two hours no one needs to ride it. a gn 250 in that case will get everyone from a t b and kill a goat in no time.

good enough?

[SMOKEU]

Those that own "assault rifles" don't do so for the automatic feature but because they look military and make the small penis feel like big guns.

Not really. Would you say the same thing about those who buy sports bikes or a V8 car?

[Road kill]

thanks for your kind reply much appreciated.

my answer, if that super duper bike can kill 20 kids in less than two hours no one needs to ride it. a gn 250 in that case will get everyone from a t b and kill a goat in no time.

good enough?

As much as can be expected from somebody that just doesn't want to answer a question because they don't want to accept anybody else's point of view but their own even when that point/opinion is based in ignorance.

[Road kill]

That sounds like the argument for the prohibition of "dangerous" illegal substances v's "dangerous" legal substances. A right indeed.

It wasn't an argument it was a very basic question that nobody seems to have an honest an straight forward in answer to.

Btw,,it is a right for any law abiding New Zealander to own firearms covered by their licence class.

So what's your problem with that ?

[Usarka]

It wasn't an argument it was a very basic question that nobody seems to have an honest an straight forward in answer to.

Btw,,it is a right for any law abiding New Zealander to own firearms covered by their licence class.

So what's your problem with that ?

A "right" is only just a law of the country you live in. Rights (and laws) change with time. You have no rights apart from what the government lets you have.

[mashman]

It wasn't an argument it was a very basic question that nobody seems to have an honest an straight forward in answer to.

Btw,,it is a right for any law abiding New Zealander to own firearms covered by their licence class.

So what's your problem with that ?

We should go back to bow and arrows.

[Delerium]

guns are made to kill somethings. bikes are made to get from a to b with the most fun in mind - i don't think you can compare the two. And yes guns are made for killing, target practice is just that, target practice.

But in saying that, the killer of this particular mass shooting got the gun of his mothers whom he killed before he went on his shooting spree. His mothers guns and rifles were all legal, and she was the one who took the killer to legal target practice etc.

I personally don't care if you have guns and what nots....but if others have access to it and than go boom kill a bunch of kiddies in a school, or patrons at a restaurant etc etc than I think the question as to why these highly powerful weapons are available to Jo and Jane Six Pack without many checks and balances, and why there are no restrictions on how to keep them is valid and should be answered. Why? Because it is in general unarmed people that get killed.

At the end of the day your or my opinion is moot and worthless in this case, but I pity the parents that have to live without their children, i pity the husbands and parents and children that have to live without their partners/children and mothers. Just because some sick puppy got a weapon from his equally sick mother (as per her sister she was of the black helicopter crowd waiting for armageddon) to shoot a bunch of 6 years old and their teachers.

It is not us here discussing the events that have thrown egg at the face of the gun lobby. It was a 20 year old, who took the legal weapons of his mother to kill.

Because at the end of the day, no one needs semi automatic or fully automatic weapons unless they belive there is a war coming, - and yes scumdog I have absolutly no idea about guns and rifles, but surely goats got killed before the AK47 was invented.

No one NEEDS a motorbike, no one NEEDS a car that can do over 100, so lets speed limit all of them.

Stopping people from having the right to have something because the dont need it is a fucking dangerous precedent. Dont go down that road.

[Delerium]

Might be the type of guns they are allowed. Those that own "assault rifles" don't do so for the automatic feature but because they look military and make the small penis feel like big guns. Just like Pit Bulls might be able to be "nice" dogs as many pure bred lovers claim however who tends to want to own the dog with the "vicious" streak and why, it the same group of small dicks that will want the assault rifles. Not sure but my feeling here is that Canada doesn't allow assault rifles nor hand guns. The Swiss have more guns per head than the USA but again restrict types and also train the owner, most through military service.


Bollocks. Military designed weapons are created to operate in much harsher conditions than sporting rifles. That is part of the reason why some people prefer them. Oh by the way, I use them all the time. It doesnt give me a big ego, it doesnt make me feel like the big man or better than anybody else.

[98tls]

And deny the proliferation of guns have any part on the proceedings

Well i guess they could make guns illegal,when enough children have been killed by bombs made in the kitchen using instructions off the internet they could ban the internet and even kitchens i guess.Mexico has vastly different ideas re guns,fuck all crime in Mexico...:weird:

[caseye]

Might be the type of guns they are allowed. Those that own "assault rifles" don't do so for the automatic feature but because they look military and make the small penis feel like big guns. Just like Pit Bulls might be able to be "nice" dogs as many pure bred lovers claim however who tends to want to own the dog with the "vicious" streak and why, it the same group of small dicks that will want the assault rifles. Not sure but my feeling here is that Canada doesn't allow assault rifles nor hand guns. The Swiss have more guns per head than the USA but again restrict types and also train the owner, most through military service.



K just so everyone is on the same playing field.

No ordinary citizen of New Zealand who isn't in the military is allowed to own or independently operate fully automatic weapons here in NZ. In relation to the underlined and emboldened part of the quote above.

So, while many have semi automatic weapons, a gun/rifle that can fire as often as you manually pull the trigger ,until the magazine is empty, many also have military styled and or look alike/assault weapons.These are far hardier and more capable of taking knocks and continuing to operate efficiently under our outdoors conditions.NZ Having some of the harshest climates for guns of any sort, this becomes a factor when buying one.
None of these people can own or put to a weapon capable of SEMI AUTOMATIC fire, a magazine, with a capacity of more than 7 rounds.

Unless they are the holders of yet another category of firearms licence which allows them to own and put to a semi automatic weapon, a magazine, larger than 7 rounds.

In relation to goat/deer/pig culling, as opposed to hunting.
A semi automatic weapon allows the user to destroy far more animals than a single shot bolt action. A lever action, or a pump action weapon also allows more animals to be destroyed.
People who go out and cull animals from farms and DOC lands do so with the express intention of eradicating as many animals as possible, these sorts of weapons allow that to happen, quickly, cleanly and in most cases humanely.
These animals roam in packs, large packs, sometimes as many as a hundred or more, so yes a semi auto is the preferred weapon, a military styled or assault type is better again.
This sort of activity happens all over NZ on a daily basis, out in the country our forests and parks are in real danger of being overrun by these animals.
That said, hunters of trophy deer go to great lengths to get into areas where the big heads are and they usually carry quite expensive bolt action type rifles.
It is a matter of choice, because those who can choose have the correct licenses and have well and truly been vetted by Police.
Their status as firearms owners is a matter of record and the slightest hint that something is wrong with them, their home/family life and these days their guns are the first things the Police come and remove.
Yes this does happen.
Crying foul everytime a nutcase goes and kills people with a gun is OK, it's natural to say, shit what do we do about this.
It's not natural to make yet more Draconian laws that only apply to law abiding gun owners.
Generally, they are not the ones who commit these sorts of crimes.

If you want to stop these incidents from happening, go out into the communities where it is happening and actively seek out the illegal gun traders, the criminals who are always armed with full auto weapons and or any other sort, take them off them, then remove THEM/ the criminals from the streets for good.
Further, re establish a gun register, here in NZ the gubbermint of the day decided to abolish our gun register. A book in every police station that recorded the sale of every registered firearm in the country.
One look at that book and your local bobby knew who owned what in his town.
Not anymore.
In the US of A such a thing does sort of exist, they need to make their licencing as hard as it is here, that would begin to put the squeeze on the availability of weapons of all sorts. The sheer size of the States and the numbers of weapons there now makes anything short of all out war being declared on illegal gun ownership inefficient and most likely to fail.
To simply take all guns of ordinary citizens who have a licence to say they legally own them, does not stop this sort of thing happening, all it does, is make the red necks go out back and bury their prized weapons in the back yard in case trouble comes.
There are many aspects to this sort of crime, what started it, how did they get access to the weapons used, why did they do it.
The answers to these questions give rise to other problems.

Do you mentally monitor everyone who has access to firearms. Not done anywhere in the world, how could you?
But you could ask gun owners to keep their eyes and ears open for signs of other owners going tropo, without fear of what may happen to them if they do say something.
Most gun owners are members of gun clubs, this would work if it was operated honestly.

Do you physically examine the storage capability of every gun owner and ensure that they Do keep their weapons in those safes? We do here in NZ.
But just once when a weapon is left out and johnny points it at his mate, it goes off and the poor kid is dead.
The owner should then be stripped of his/her ability to own and operate firearms forever and should do time in jail.A long time.
I agree with that.

More questions than answers here aye!
The answer is not more laws that only affect the vast majority of honest law abiding, mentally stable gun owners, their choice to own and operate firearms and have more expensive licences that come with heavier burdens of responsibility should continue to be just that. As long as they do their part, they should be left alone to enjoy their weapons as they have always done, legally and safely.

The answer lies in getting to those people who illegally have these guns and removing them for good, both the gun and the user.
The scale of this course of action is massive, but nothing is going to change until it is begun!

Thats my opinion.

[oneofsix]

:woohoo: Throw a line out for a minnow and catch whoppers. :yes:

Actually I agree with your sentiment caseye. I didn't mean to refer to the assault styled hunting rifle, put those in the class of the pit bull pure breed lover as opposed to tough guy dick head. In NZ we have the licencing checks to keep the dick heads from getting their hands on the assault styled rifle and therefore negate the that part of my statement.

[imac]

It is not about guns but they are an easy target.
While there is the proliferation of first person shoot em up games, an un willingness for parents or society to discipline or place boundaries on kids, an insulated and un caring society then we will continue to have amuck killings.

Unfortunately banning things looks like something is being done and the politicians will go for it. The real problems are so much harder to resolve are firmly entrenched in society and are getting worse

[oneofsix]

It is not about guns but they are an easy target.
While there is the proliferation of first person shoot em up games

:scratch:what was that about easy targets? :dodge:

[Swoop]

the killer of this particular mass shooting got the gun of his mothers whom he killed before he went on his shooting spree.
His mothers guns and rifles were all legal, and she was the one who took the killer to legal target practice etc.
It was a 20 year old, who took the legal weapons of his mother to kill.
So, we should be treating this person for what he is/was, a theif and a murderer. This is a mental health issue.

I have absolutly no idea about guns and rifles
The problem is that the majority of people do not. They do not appreciate the fact that baying crowds encite lawmakers to get their pens out and start to write the crappiest, most useless laws ever imagined and which fail to address the true heart of the problem. (See above)

seek out the … criminals who are always armed with full auto weapons .
Unfortunately not true. How many full-auto incidents have there EVER been in NZ? I can think of one (Bassett Rd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassett_Road_machine_gun_murders)– and even then it was set to semi-auto fire) The average crim is armed with a stolen, sawn-off shotgun or an illegal pistol at best.

Further, re establish a gun register, here in NZ the gubbermint of the day decided to abolish our gun register.
The best thing ever, was getting rid of that balls-up. Inaccurate, never up to date and innefectual. Canada has just abolished their national gun registry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Registry)because of the same reasons! Also, it was costing billions of Canadian dollars to run.


In America the issue is the same as anywhere else: Mental health issues.

Why are some schools attacked? Sadly part of the reason is a dis-armed section of the population (schools) are an easy target for the mentally deranged. Other areas of American society have increased the ability for citizens to carry concealed firearms and in some states there has been a decrease in crime after this has been enacted.

A sad day for all those affected by this lunatic thief and murderer.

[caseye]

In reply Swoop.

No full auto weapons in the hands of civilians in NZ, well actually! But that comment in context of what I was referring to USA's latest outrage, is properly sheeted home to that place not NZ.

The gun register!
Yep Canada have just thrown it out because it cost too much.
Question, what is too much?
Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones. You find that out from good intelligence and respect of the general public and an unafraid shooting fraternity who will actively monitor their own and let authorities know if a gunny is heading off the rails.
The trick is to make sure that gun owners are not afraid of saying something and to keep hammering away at the crims and the gun runners who think they can get away with it.
The biggest problem of re-establishing a reliable gun register would be twofold, one getting all licenced gun owners to give honest and accurate records of what they have, two making sure that the register is kept up to date.
So in this day and age a central gun register office, tasked with amassing the information required on computer for instant delivery of relevant information to front line Police going to possible firearms incidents would cost money, a lot probably.
The alternative? we lose damn fine men who go to a job and get shot dead for LACK OF THAT INFORMATION.
The only other alternative is state intervention and the removal of all firearms from all legal owners.
This would achieve what?
Same as in England, take all guns off all law abiding owners and then hey presto we're gun free, no more gun crimes.
Wait a minute, whats this in the news, "ARMED MEN HOLD UP PUB" all over England.
Hang on, there's no guns left in the hands of ordinary law abiding people, oh yeah, must be the crims! oh well what can you do about them?
Hunt the barstards down using every means possible including and most importantly in my humble opinion, asking the once again law abiding gun owners to keep their eyes and ears open.
Do you have an alternative that would work, I'd be interested to hear it.

Fully agree with the last, mental health or lack of it is an increasing problem here to.
Why, simple, our govt's have completely wiped out those places where those that truly needed to be looked after could be.
They have introduced possibly homicidal people back into communities who want to care for these people and make their lives better, but they have no idea of what it takes to look after these people and the first they know of a problem is when someone is dead because one of these poor people has flipped out and could not be restrained or made to see that there were other ways of dealing with tier demons.
ADHD, prescription tranquilizers and allergies all fall under the same umbrella for me, soft cocks who give something a name so it can be treated?
Lets get serious, a kid yells and screams at their parents, they do nothing, it goes to school and does the same there, the teachers run away with hands in the air, can't give it a bloody good old fashioned clip under the ear, it'll sue them and the govt will fire them.
Doctors treat a symptom of possible fatigue/mental break down with a tranquiliser, great until they are being swallowed a rate well past safe, and Oh yes, off the rails they go.
Spend the time, find out why, treat that!
Allergies, how many of us suffer from them these days? Lots, why? How come? as my kids used to say to their grandmother.
Um, because they don't know what it is that is causing the problem, so it's an allergy, take these all encompassing drugs, the allergy symptoms will go away, don't worry about the side effects, hair falling out, tension headaches, suicidal tendancies.
Time is the biggest killer of people all over the civilised ( Yeah Right) world.
Take those kids with ADHD out into the country let em run till they drop, put em to bed, same tomorrow and the next day, show them some respect, discipline them as and when required, never let them see fear or capitulate, they come around, they learn to modify their own behaviour to make life including theirs better/easier.

[Daffyd]

Well said that man! ADHD is only one of many manufactured conditions; invented by Big Pharma so they could make and sell Ritalin etc.

RITALIN... So much easier than parenting!

[scumdog]

Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones. aying something and to keep hammering away at the crims and the gun runners who think they can get away with it.
The biggest problem of re-establishing a reliable gun register would be twofold, one getting all licenced gun owners to give honest and accurate records of what they have, two making sure that the register is kept up to date.
So in this day and age a central gun register office, tasked with amassing the information required on computer for instant delivery of relevant information to front line Police going to possible firearms incidents would cost money, a lot probably.
The alternative? we lose damn fine men who go to a job and get shot dead for LACK OF THAT INFORMATION.


The registry falls out of accuracy too easily/quickly as far as I know - and depending on it could be fatal anyway. i.e."It's OK, Joe Snerd only has a single action shotgun, we should be rigth" (Meanwhile Joe Snerd has accumulated an arsenal of multi shot weapons...)

Well that's virtually what what happened with Molenaar, he didn't hold a firearms licence remember - and look at his armoury and the outcome.:pinch:
And that's what would have happened if we had to register guns back then too.. :yes: