There's still some things need sorting but it's getting better

[jellywrestler]

A great days racing at Manfeild at the weekend, the Vic club put on a good solid meeting yet there's still a few bad judgement calls by riders out there on the track that need to be highlighted and hopefully people will get it right.
i'LL ADD THAT THESE ARE NOT UNIQUE WHATSOEVER TO THE VICTORIA CLUB MEETINGS AND CAN HAPPEN AT ALL MEETINGS TOO.

One rider celebrated their victory 15 or so metres before the start line, off the throttle and hands in the air. No good if someone was right there slipstreaming then could've ended in a mess.

A jump starter decided to let about five bikes past a lap later, by backing off quite a bit over the start finish line so the officials could see, while also trying to read the penalty board.
This one had me nearly ducking for cover as it could've so easily ended in tears...


Another rider pulled over in the slip road just short of the hair pin; after the race had finished (it was both chequered and red flagged) and then crossed the track before being given the green flag to do so. Another NO NO.


The Club I'm pretty sure had words with said individuals on the day the intent of my post is to get some discussion going so people know these are dangerous moves and no names please, this is not a finger pointing game.

Spyda
(one of the Commentators on the day)

[yungatart]

All three of those incidents had me with my heart in my mouth.
Sometimes it is much scarier trackside than out there racing, I reckon!

[lukemillar]

Is the penalty board necessary? I know one rider saw the penalty board with his number on it and pulled off the track as he thought he was being black flagged... then dropped his bike in the mud!

If you have jumped the start, being told mid-race that you're gonna get a 20 sec penalty is a bit pointless as there isn't really anything you can do with that information. It's not like anyone can drop ~4 secs a lap off their times to try and make it back in a 6 lap race!

[jellywrestler]

Is the penalty board necessary? I know one rider saw the penalty board with his number on it and pulled off the track as he thought he was being black flagged... then dropped his bike in the mud!

If you have jumped the start, being told mid-race that you're gonna get a 20 sec penalty is a bit pointless as there isn't really anything you can do with that information. It's not like anyone can drop ~4 secs a lap off their times to try and make it back in a 6 lap race!

It's a rule book thing and like any rule it's open to scrutiny especially when safety is concerned, why not delve into it a bit more?
A couple of years ago a 125 rider jump started at Hampton downs nats and once they had the board out put their nose down and gained 23 secs from memory to still take the win so it can happen
In the incident I mentioned in my first post the rider thought if he/she slowed at the start line and let people past he/she wouldn't get penalised. Bottom line is it was a bad move and by bringing it out for discussion hopefully it will not happen again and cause a mess.

[Skunk]

Is the penalty board necessary? I know one rider saw the penalty board with his number on it and pulled off the track as he thought he was being black flagged... then dropped his bike in the mud!
Should have looked at the flag - it's bigger than the penalty board


If you have jumped the start, being told mid-race that you're gonna get a 20 sec penalty is a bit pointless as there isn't really anything you can do with that information. It's not like anyone can drop ~4 secs a lap off their times to try and make it back in a 6 lap race!It's required by the rules. We do our best to display it on the first lap. Slowing down to let people past is dangerous and NOT going to fix it. The rules won't allow it.

[Biggles08]

I think we were all warned at the briefing pretty clearly that if any stupid/dangerous maneuvers were done out on the track involving the safety of ourselves or others we would be penalized and fined $$$? Did any of these riders suffer a fine for their actions do you know spyda?

Whilst 'in the moment' we can make decisions while racing that may not be the correct ones to make, slowing on the front straight enough to let x5 riders past is simply stupid and not a snap decision made under duress. This especially considering the tragic loss of Mark (RIP) and the great lengths Skunk went to in the briefing to make certain we all knew the dangers of slow bikes on a track with racers at race pace. I personally think this would deserve a $$$ fine myself...this is the only way some people will learn.

[Biggles08]

Slowing down to let people past is dangerous and NOT going to fix it. The rules won't allow it.
You beat me to it!

Did he/she recieve a fine Skunk?

[CHOPPA]

Another rider pulled over in the slip road just short of the hair pin; after the race had finished (it was both chequered and red flagged) and then crossed the track before being given the green flag to do so. Another NO NO.



Spyda
(one of the Commentators on the day)

The race was red flagged you supposed to return to the dummy grid. I had also been passed the chequered so I was supposed to use the slip road. So you were going to put a green flag out on a track that is under red flag? Should I assume the track is now back to race condition and im not allowed to cross the track? Maybe I should have carried on around the track and back to the dummy grid like the other riders but I had just been warned not to do that?

Do I trust the kids on the flag point? At one point they were holding up a green flag above there head as they moved around in the marshal point when there were bikes coming...

Why do you use a slip road that dramatically increases the risk of fatal injuries. You will get a flag marshal to stand in the middle of a track with bikes coming flat out toward them, you are having bikes cross a track for no reason. Let us complete the lap and ride into the pits. No reason the next class cant get let out once the last rider is at the hairpin which would see races turned over even quicker. Slip road seems like a stupid idea to me

[Biggles08]

Let us complete the lap and ride into the pits. No reason the next class cant get let out once the last rider is at the hairpin which would see races turned over even quicker. Slip road seems like a stupid idea to me

Thats got some merit to be fair.

[CHOPPA]

And why the fuck cant people find their grid positions!

[steveyb]

The race was red flagged you supposed to return to the dummy grid. I had also been passed the chequered so I was supposed to use the slip road. So you were going to put a green flag out on a track that is under red flag? Should I assume the track is now back to race condition and im not allowed to cross the track? Maybe I should have carried on around the track and back to the dummy grid like the other riders but I had just been warned not to do that?

Do I trust the kids on the flag point? At one point they were holding up a green flag above there head as they moved around in the marshal point when there were bikes coming...

Why do you use a slip road that dramatically increases the risk of fatal injuries. You will get a flag marshal to stand in the middle of a track with bikes coming flat out toward them, you are having bikes cross a track for no reason. Let us complete the lap and ride into the pits. No reason the next class cant get let out once the last rider is at the hairpin which would see races turned over even quicker. Slip road seems like a stupid idea to me

Not quite sure what you mean but I will have a go, and this is in no way the words of VMCC, just me.

If a rider takes to the slip-road for whatever reason, that rider has been educated many times at riders briefing and other times, to remain there until the race is completed and a green flag is shown from start-finish. I can't see how this is ambiguous, unless a rider wants to make it ambiguous for their own reasons.
Clearly if a race is red-flagged or chequered flagged, the race is over. There is no more race. The track is effectively closed at that point. Return to pit-lane or to the slip-road it amounts to the same thing. When the way is clear for those riders in the slip-road they will be admitted across. I see no ambiguity there at all. No riders will still be racing, and a green flag waved at start-finish is not going to release riders in the pit-lane, they are released by the grid marshalls. The point you raise is a bit of a red-herring Chop, and a bit scurrilous I must say.

No comment on the second assertion, wasn't there, didn't see it.

Third point: I for one totally agree with you. I have believed for many years that using that slip-road simply introduces a level of complexity and danger that is unwarranted. The reason for using it is time saving and that is all. In the past we have run without using the slip-road, currently the organisers choose to use it. There are severe time constraints on the day and no matter how many times organisers tell riders to be there on time and to not dawdle around the warm-up or warm-down laps, riders are like sheep, sometimes with the intellect of said ovine earth co-habitants and there are always those that decide after 10 minutes of effort that they are so buggered they need to crawl home. Or perhaps they simply don't give a shit about anyone else but themselves.

Fourth point however, is not correct. The next race cannot be admitted onto the circuit until all of the previous bikes are off the track, for safety reasons. It is not unheard of for a rider to crash on the warm-down lap (see above). Riders on their warm-up lap are going fast, or they should be. So they should expect that the track ahead of them is clear, therefore all bikes need to be off the track. And there also needs to be time for the marshalls to have a scan of their part of the track and retrieve bits and pieces from bikes or whatever, that may have gotten onto the track.

[steveyb]

And why the fuck cant people find their grid positions!

See above post

[CHOPPA]

The point you raise is a bit of a red-herring Chop, and a bit scurrilous I must say.



Well not really mate.... I got the chequered flag at the finish line but I was lapping riders and the riders in front of me also got a red flag, I had just been warned to not go passed the slip road so I entered the slip road but the other riders continued on around the track. All the riders were entering the pits under red flag so I thought well im not going to get a green flag because the race is under a red flag and you cant put a green flag out if an ambulance is coming onto the track so I continued to the dummy grid with all the other riders as stated in the rules.

So you have to return to the pits when you get a red flag by carrying on around the track and if its a red track after the race you have to go to the slip road however if the race goes full red after you have crossed the finish line you should continue around the track or you can go to the slip road but you cant cross the track until the ambulance is off the track because you cant put a green flag on a track when an ambulance is on it.

If they had just let me ride around the track like I did in race 1 and go back to the pits there wouldnt have been the confusion.

VMCC are going to HAVE TO change the slip road rules now that the spyda has brought up this discussion because if anything were to happen when these problems have been brought to there attention they will get in the shit

[jellywrestler]

Jeez Chop , talk about dob yourself in! This wasn't about who did what it was about what had been done that wasn't supposed to be so others could learn that some things aren't right and some can have serious consequences. If there's a 'loophole' in a rule or procedure lets get it sorted.
The programe for last weeks meeting states
Red Flag at the Hairpin after the chequered flag:
* pull into slip road and wait for the green flag at the Chief Flag Marshalls station

Also states
* red flag - reduce speed,signal, pull into pit lane and wait for instructions, use the slip road.

[CHOPPA]

Jeez Chop , talk about dob yourself in! This wasn't about who did what it was about what had been done that wasn't supposed to be so others could learn that some things aren't right and some can have serious consequences. If there's a 'loophole' in a rule or procedure lets get it sorted.
The programe for last weeks meeting states
[B]Red Flag at the Hairpin after the chequered flag:
[B]* pull into slip road and wait for the green flag at the Chief Flag Marshalls station

Yup good call, had a few indepth talks with Skunk and Clive and got it sorted.

The solution is to eliminate the problem and that is to not use the slip road. Its not gonna slow the racing down because we have to wait there for ages after the bikes have gone passed anyway

[lukemillar]

Should have looked at the flag - it's bigger than the penalty board

Haha - I'm not disputing that! Also, I'm not condoning what the "slow down on the start/finish straight rider" did either. I just wanted to mentioned that one rider did get confused after the last round, and if it is a rule to tell a rider that he has jumped, then maybe we should stress that at the briefing.

I can see why there is a rule, but again, I don't think it is beneficial as most people (except for Spyda's example) can't make back the time given in a jump start over a 6 lap sprint race as we are trying to go as fast as we can anyway!

I'll drop a line to MNZ and will be interested to hear what they think.

On a side note- I can sort of understand why the rider that slowed down to let people past did just that (it is a stupid rule that has happened recently a couple of times in World Supersport). Unfortunately, we do watch these other race series and it does filter into peoples' minds.

[gixerracer]

Haha - I'm not disputing that! Also, I'm not condoning what the "slow down on the start/finish straight rider" did either. I just wanted to mentioned that one rider did get confused after the last round, and if it is a rule to tell a rider that he has jumped, then maybe we should stress that at the briefing.

I can see why there is a rule, but again, I don't think it is beneficial as most people (except for Spyda's example) can't make back the time given in a jump start over a 6 lap sprint race as we are trying to go as fast as we can anyway!

I'll drop a line to MNZ and will be interested to hear what they think.

On a side note- I can sort of understand why the rider that slowed down to let people past did just that (it is a stupid rule that has happened recently a couple of times in World Supersport). Unfortunately, we do watch these other race series and it does filter into peoples' minds.

Anyone that holds a racing licence should be aware of the rules related to there race classes etc

[gixerracer]

And why the fuck cant people find their grid positions!

When im not there you can have Number 1 grid. Simple really

[Bert]

The programe for last weeks meeting states
Red Flag at the Hairpin after the chequered flag:
* pull into slip road and wait for the green flag at the Chief Flag Marshalls station
Also states
* red flag - reduce speed,signal, pull into pit lane and wait for instructions, use the slip road.

It was made quite clear at the riders briefing and have been the method used at manfeild at least since Owen's death 2005.

What is really the big issue with waiting on the slip road until it is deemed safe to cross the track (either in red flag or race finish conditions)?

The only issue that I can see is that of riders wanting to check final tire temperatures (under racing conditions)...
If that's the case then I would have thought that practice days were for that: not racing days.
There are rules and other considerations for organisers (whom if they were not there, we would not be racing).

If you don't like the rules they set (which are around safety for all concerned) then you really have two choices:
1. find out why the rules are the way they are and discuss them logically after the event with the organisers (don't ignore them).
2. don't go racing....

Jelly brought up three events that happened; each of them made my heart skip...to the point where I stopped watching as I'd rather not see another person die this year.

[lukemillar]

Anyone that holds a racing licence should be aware of the rules related to there race classes etc

Of course, but it seems that is not the case.

[Ivan]

The race was red flagged you supposed to return to the dummy grid. I had also been passed the chequered so I was supposed to use the slip road. So you were going to put a green flag out on a track that is under red flag? Should I assume the track is now back to race condition and im not allowed to cross the track? Maybe I should have carried on around the track and back to the dummy grid like the other riders but I had just been warned not to do that?

Do I trust the kids on the flag point? At one point they were holding up a green flag above there head as they moved around in the marshal point when there were bikes coming...

Why do you use a slip road that dramatically increases the risk of fatal injuries. You will get a flag marshal to stand in the middle of a track with bikes coming flat out toward them, you are having bikes cross a track for no reason. Let us complete the lap and ride into the pits. No reason the next class cant get let out once the last rider is at the hairpin which would see races turned over even quicker. Slip road seems like a stupid idea to me


I agree with choppa finish the race last bike to hairpin open the gates for the next class and let them out the flow is so good that way

in motox the last bike hits the finish line and the start gate located somewere else is allready dropped and the bikes are racing so as literally one race ends the next starts we have heaps of classes 20 minute races start at 10 and go home by 2.30 just food for thought

[jellywrestler]

Personally I like the slip road use at Manfeild as it's one of the best features on any tracks in New Zealand.
Why? It's quite good to see riders have a wee chitchat there often quite animated too. A few pats on the back etc. No other track has that feature everyone disappears back to the pits.

It seems to me if the riders obey the rules this is a safe part of the track.

[roogazza]

Anyone that holds a racing licence should be aware of the rules related to there race classes etc

You would think that Gixerracer wouldn't you, I shakes my head !
I read so much crap on here on this subject. What are we breeding nowdays dumb fucks ? It's not just youngsters either which is a real worry.
Does this sort of stuff happen at other race meets in NZ, anyone ? It was a rare happening in years gone by. Is it a reflection of the people out there taking up the sport? Christ,fix it quick.

Of course, but it seems that is not the case.

[Kickaha]

Why? It's quite good to see riders have a wee chitchat there often quite animated too. A few pats on the back etc. No other track has that feature everyone disappears back to the pits.

It seems to me if the riders obey the rules this is a safe part of the track.

Levels does and the same happens, riders aren't allowed to cross the track back to the pits until the green flag at the hairpin is waved

[CHOPPA]

What happens if a bike comes off the last corner and smashes into everyone that is stopped waiting? Stranger things have happened. If it were a safe place to stand during racing conditions then marshalls would stand there and quad bikes would be able to wait there or the ambulance. But its not a safe place to stop.

Safety concerns:

Bikes can crash into people stopped there waiting.
Marshalls have to stand on the track with the red flag with a risk of getting run down.
Bikes have to cross a track when instucted by children on the flag point.


But its a good idea because the riders can have a chit chat?
It doesnt make the any difference to time either because the marshalls need there time to check the track.

Are there any good reasons why my safety concerns should be overlooked?

[Tony.OK]

What happens if a bike comes off the last corner and smashes into everyone that is stopped waiting? Stranger things have happened.
Hmm...........where'd this bike end up? Can't remember who it was :msn-wink:
http://www.mcnews.com.au/MotorcycleRacing2011/SBK/NZ/rND5/Gallery_C/images/NZSBK_R5_C19_Craig_Shirriffs.jpg

[yungatart]

...
Bikes have to cross a track when instucted by children on the flag point.


But its a good idea because the riders can have a chit chat?
It doesnt make the any difference to time either because the marshalls need there time to check the track.

Are there any good reasons why my safety concerns should be overlooked?

Oh, you are in a bad way, aren't you?

Those 'children', as are all marshals, are instructed by race control.
One of those 'children' is a very experienced marshal, with a number of years under his belt.

The system has worked for a number of years...in earlier race meetings you have understood it all, and not been confused by it all.

Brain fade? Or is age catching up with you?

[jellywrestler]

What happens if a bike comes off the last corner and smashes into everyone that is stopped waiting? Stranger things have happened.



But its a good idea because the riders can have a chit chat?


first point, you're right, there is some risk of being there.


second point, I never said it's a good idea so people can have a chit chat, merely stated that as an observer that this was an interesting feature that no other tracks have.
(kickaha tells me the same happens at levels, i've only been to the Nationals there and it's a full wind down lap)


My point of the thread is to get people discussing all the risky moves so people know it's not OK, if it brings about change then that's got to help solve some of the issues.

[Skunk]

Interesting discussion. (I wonder if anyone has mentioned these points to the VMCC Committee or whether they are relying on someone to read the thread and give the Race Organiser a call to let them know it's been posted... Ohh, no one has. But the Race Organiser has had a phone call from someone NOT involved.)

The rules were clear. Verbal and written. You are instructed to slow to a touring pace exiting turn one so you shouldn't have bikes going "flat out" at the marshal on the slip road. If you stop at the right place on the slip road you would be well clear of any 'Shirriffs' type crash. (Where did his bike end up?...)

The reason for using the slip road is so VMCC can clear the rest of the track of broken bikes (from turn four through to the front straight). This does save time. VMCC can't change the rules race by race. So it's either shorter races and full circuit OR the slip road...

I understand the CoC instructed the Steward to send the offending rider home for one incident. It was the Steward who decided not too.

[Tony.OK]

(Where did his bike end up?...)

The reason for using the slip road is so VMCC can clear the rest of the track of broken bikes (from turn four through to the front straight). This does save time. VMCC can't change the rules race by race. So it's either shorter races and full circuit OR the slip road...



From memory it made it to the slip road or very very close to it.

Haven't been to a meeting for ages, it was done and dusted by 3:30, is that normal, seem to remember finishing around 4:30 when I was braver :innocent:

[codgyoleracer]

Yup good call, had a few indepth talks with Skunk and Clive and got it sorted.

The solution is to eliminate the problem and that is to not use the slip road. Its not gonna slow the racing down because we have to wait there for ages after the bikes have gone passed anyway

Tend to agree that the slip road use is a problem potentially waiting to happen, and is also inconsistent with standard practice at many tracks, - + intermittent between the various clubs that run meetings at manfield.

Nevertheless, its the clubs call at the end of the day.......

GW

[RobGassit]

So one rider is impatient and has a brain fart, and now the club and the marshalls are at fault. You're taking the piss surely.

[Kickaha]

(kickaha tells me the same happens at levels, i've only been to the Nationals there and it's a full wind down lap)

Club day only thing

At Ruapuna club days after the chequered flag bikes are stopped before the hairpin and after the track is clear sent through the bypass

[jellywrestler]

Those 'children', as are all marshals, are instructed by race control.
One of those 'children' is a very experienced marshal, with a number of years under his belt.


I'll back that up too, mixing with them at lunch they have tags on to show they've done the work to get where they are there are various levels of flag marshall quals.
These people are the backbone of a meeting, something some people often forget.

[CHOPPA]

Oh, you are in a bad way, aren't you?

Those 'children', as are all marshals, are instructed by race control.
One of those 'children' is a very experienced marshal, with a number of years under his belt.

The system has worked for a number of years...in earlier race meetings you have understood it all, and not been confused by it all.

Brain fade? Or is age catching up with you?

Well why would they raise a green flag above there head when it is not clear to cross the track? obviously not experienced enough.....

[CHOPPA]

So one rider is impatient and has a brain fart, and now the club and the marshalls are at fault. You're taking the piss surely.

Or maybe that rider is one of the most experienced people at the meeting and maybe they have a point??

[CHOPPA]

Tend to agree that the slip road use is a problem potentially waiting to happen, and is also inconsistent with standard practice at many tracks, - + intermittent between the various clubs that run meetings at manfield.

Nevertheless, its the clubs call at the end of the day.......

GW

Thats because your an intelligent man!

[Skunk]

Or maybe that rider is one of the most experienced people at the meeting and maybe they have a point??
Thats because your an intelligent man!I guess you're the only sane, intelligent, safe person on the forum today Choppa. How come you're not MNZ President, Road Race Commissioner, Clerk of Course, Steward, Flag Marshal or Race Organiser?

I'm thinking it's because you're mostly talking out your arse again.

You're one of the riders that completely and dangerously broke the rules and the consequences of that thoughtless, self-centred, action is going to rain down on everyone next round. Pat yourself on the back. You've done well.

And ruined my weekend (and probably the next few weeks).

[Shaun]

CHOPPA is correct about the slip road being a potentually dangerous situation!!!! Just stop using it and the potentuall is eliminated!

But then again,nothing gets taken seriously on here,no matter who says what, so just keep up the abuse team, it is as funny as shit to read when I am killing time

[codgyoleracer]

I guess you're the only sane, intelligent, safe person on the forum today Choppa. How come you're not MNZ President, Road Race Commissioner, Clerk of Course, Steward, Flag Marshal or Race Organiser?

I'm thinking it's because you're mostly talking out your arse again.

You're one of the riders that completely and dangerously broke the rules and the consequences of that thoughtless, self-centred, action is going to rain down on everyone next round. Pat yourself on the back. You've done well.

And ruined my weekend (and probably the next few weeks).


Andrew, without doubt you guys have the best possible process and operation of the slip road in place (if it's is chosen to be used). Short of having a marshall out on the slip road exit with a radio and flag (which comes with its own problems)

I dont think Chops is grizzling about being pinged, - he is just commenting on an incident that he happened to be involved with & that was highlighted by Jelly.

The facts of the matter are, there is a dedicated track exit technique set in place for Manfield "keep well left when entering/exiting Dunlop whilst slowing, Plenty of signaling, Enter pitlane (and it would be easy to argue that even that technique is a bit dodgy on occasions ! ), - IMO using any another option only adds to the potential risk exposure for the club.

Nevertheless - i fully understand why you use the slip road and am happy to use either system myself. All i am saying is that one has preference over the other IMO.

By the way, Great turn out & Great job for this round 3, and whilst its easy for Jelly to bitch about niggly issues - the reality is that they represent a tiny percentage only of the multitude of decisions made by organisers and riders within a days racing that could have a potentially negative outcome.

Glen

[Billy]

CHOPPA is correct about the slip road being a potentually dangerous situation!!!! Just stop using it and the potentuall is eliminated!

But then again,nothing gets taken seriously on here,no matter who says what, so just keep up the abuse team, it is as funny as shit to read when I am killing time


Andrew, without doubt you guys have the best possible process and operation of the slip road in place (if it's is chosen to be used). Short of having a marshall out on the slip road exit with a radio and flag (which comes with its own problems)

I dont think Chops is grizzling about being pinged, - he is just commenting on an incident that he happened to be involved with & that was highlighted by Jelly.

The facts of the matter are, there is a dedicated track exit technique set in place for Manfield "keep well left when entering/exiting Dunlop whilst slowing, Plenty of signaling, Enter pitlane (and it would be easy to argue that even that technique is a bit dodgy on occasions ! ), - IMO using any another option only adds to the potential risk exposure for the club.

Nevertheless - i fully understand why you use the slip road and am happy to use either system myself. All i am saying is that one has preference over the other IMO.

By the way, Great turn & Great job out for this round 3, and whilst its easy for Jelly to bitch about niggly issues - the reality is that they represent a tiny percentage only of the multitude of decisions made by organisers and riders within a days racing that could have a potentially negative outcome.

Glen
REALLY you guys see the problem here is the use of the slip road thats been in use for over 20 years and not Sloans actions in changing the rules on the spot and putting others lives at risk by crossing the track while machines are still circulating,2 months after a fatality caused by somebody else not following the correct safety protocol????

Jeez Glen atleast Shauns got an excuse,I thought you two would have known better than to condone these sort of irresponsible and dangerous actions,Still we learn something new every day eh!

[codgyoleracer]

Jeez Glen atleast Shauns got an excuse,I thought you two would have known better than to condone these sort of irresponsible and dangerous actions,Still we learn something new every day eh![/QUOTE]

HaHa, good to see you back Billy, and risking that high paying part time MNZ position.

I dont and havent condoned any actions, I did say Choppa got pinged for it and i assume he will get the ole-damp bus ticket slap on the back of the wrist approach as usual ?, But then again as we both know MNZ appears to takes a different approach for the more "well heeled" riders , So Sloan should maybe be a recipient of your $500 fine option ?

You are correct in that Shaun has got a good excuse to make comment - he is / was a world class rider........... I assume thats what you are inferring ?, anything less would be offensive from a man of your position and social standing........ :-)

Long live KB !

Glen W

[roadracingoldfart]

As i wasnt there i wont be specific or mention Choppa or Shaun or Glen's names either.
The fact is i have always liked the slip road (that like started in 1986) and yet in all those years the silly system has been to wave a cute flag to allow the riders to move across the track back to the pits from the start line. Why not use a light / siren/ hooter to control it and that can be controlled by an official high in thye control room with safety and authority. This can be located like a bloody great search light on the stand side of the track and this wont create the need to place a pole to mount said light on . What say you peasants ??

[roadracingoldfart]

mixing with them at lunch they...


I just got a mental picture of you consuming a filled roll !!:msn-wink::bleh:

[Grumph]

Club day only thing

At Ruapuna club days after the chequered flag bikes are stopped before the hairpin and after the track is clear sent through the bypass

AFAIK that's MCI only. CAMS and BEARS who operate from ground level as they're forbidden the tower still use the drag strip return road as track exit.
Some have said it's confusing - personally I don't know why MCI changed to using the slip road - I suspect it was the idea of a past President.....

[jellywrestler]

and whilst its easy for Jelly to bitch about niggly issues -
Glen,
I've been to three meetings where fatalities have occured this year, and lost three people whom I condsidered friends; three people whom I looked up to .
One of those incidents I, like so many others, saw unfold then occur. This incident in my opinion was so easily and totally avoidable and is a mirror image of whats happened before.
I travel to manfeild to assist the Victoria Club to help with their meeting, in my own time and at my own expense, save for a lunch they provide (thanks for that team)

I probably see more 'issues' out there as my 'job' is to watch the whole race from the commentary tower. I saw some issues and brought them into KIWIBIKER so people here could maybe learn from them.
For too long offences have occured without even a mention to the offender, they need to be told but telling them doesn't get the word out to everyone and having it every riders briefing only ends up with people not listening to anything.
I clearly said It was not to do with the Victoria Club, but could happen at an race meeting (or indeed track day), and I clearly said the intent of my post is to get some discussion going so people know these are dangerous moves and no names please, this is not a finger pointing game.
I'd like to think I was trying to improve things, I make no apology for wanting to do that, I do apologise to Skunk and crew if it's ended up pointing fingers at the Victoria Club, that was not my intent.

If you think that slowing down in the middle of the front straight on a current model 1000cc Motorcycle tapped out in the novice class is simply a niggly issue then so be it but I don't want to see another crash like happened earlier this year that with a bit of education can be avoided.


Lastly if people have thought about the slip road being unsafe then why haven't they contacted the clubs before about this and other issues instead of waiting for something to go wrong and then all say 'well I knew something was...."

Graeme 'Spyda' Staples

[jellywrestler]

I just got a mental picture of you consuming a filled roll !!:msn-wink::bleh:
Lasagne and Coleslaw was my choice and damn fine too.

[MSTRS]

CHOPPA is correct about the slip road being a potentually dangerous situation!!!! Just stop using it and the potentuall is eliminated!

But then again,nothing gets taken seriously on here,no matter who says what, so just keep up the abuse team, it is as funny as shit to read when I am killing time

OK. I'll bite...

Every racer (plus officials and volunteers) signs a waiver that states "Racing is dangerous...etc' This must be signed each and every time someone participates at a race day. Everyone knows that completely eliminating all risk is not possible.

The simple fact is - just being out on the track holds some level of danger. The rules are there to minimise these dangers, and it is expected that everyone will follow them. And that includes following instructions given via flags.
I don't buy Choppa's "I was confused". He is too experienced to not know the rules and what to do at the sliproad.

[yungatart]

Well why would they raise a green flag above there head when it is not clear to cross the track? obviously not experienced enough.....

I didn't see that, or I would have done something about it...did you mention it to any official on the day?


Or maybe that rider is one of the most experienced people at the meeting and maybe they have a point??
as you said....
obviously not experienced enough.....


As i wasnt there i wont be specific or mention Choppa or Shaun or Glen's names either.
The fact is i have always liked the slip road (that like started in 1986) and yet in all those years the silly system has been to wave a cute flag to allow the riders to move across the track back to the pits from the start line. Why not use a light / siren/ hooter to control it and that can be controlled by an official high in thye control room with safety and authority. This can be located like a bloody great search light on the stand side of the track and this wont create the need to place a pole to mount said light on . What say you peasants ??

The green flag IS controlled by Race Control....

[Skunk]

Why not use a light / siren/ hooter to control it and that can be controlled by an official high in thye control room with safety and authority. This can be located like a bloody great search light on the stand side of the track and this wont create the need to place a pole to mount said light on . What say you peasants ??

The green flag to cross the track is displayed at Flag Point 8 (at pit entry - you may not have seen us use this flag point Paul) and, as with all track crossings, Starts, Red Flags, Black Flags, Jump Start Boards etc, is under control of Race Control. They are not used without instruction from Race Control. A flag point cannot even ask to use one.
They only have discretion to use Yellow, Yellow/Orange, and Blue flags.

Bike recovery is under control of Race Control.

If any rider sees something they don't like go see the Riders Rep. Riders Rep then brings it to Race Control. Don't post your concern after the meeting on some website.

You should know this as it's in your rule book. By entering a Race Meeting you have signed a legal, binding contract saying you have read, understood, and will obey it.

[wharfy]

I've done 3 winter series and the slip road has been used without incident in all the races I was in (or watched).

1/ The flag marshall indicating riders should exit the track onto the slip road is not at risk unless some rider has failed to see the white & chequered flags and is still at racing pace, I assume the marshall would see/hear them coming and get off the track. Also in this case unless this was the lead rider they would surely notice other bikes slowing down and signaling their intention to exit the track ?

2/ The green flag waved from the start / finish line has always been unambiguous, waved with vigour and not easily confused with someone moving about in the box holding it (even above their heads).

3/ If the lead riders stop well back from the edge of the track the risk of being hit by a wayward bike is VERY low in my opinion.

4/ The technique for exiting the track, whether at the end of a race or if you cannot continue at racing pace is stressed at EVERY riders brief.

I am usually one of the last to finish a race, but on occasions when I have been lapped I have been on the front row of the slip road and in either case I have never felt that I was at risk, and despite being waved across I can't help myself I always look left before crossing (which would be no help on a counter clockwise circuit :) )
What constitutes a safe speed on the warm down lap is open to interpretation and some considerable variance, the use of the slip road reduces the time and distance for errors to occour.

[Shaun]

REALLY you guys see the problem here is the use of the slip road thats been in use for over 20 years and not Sloans actions in changing the rules on the spot and putting others lives at risk by crossing the track while machines are still circulating,2 months after a fatality caused by somebody else not following the correct safety protocol????

Jeez Glen atleast Shauns got an excuse,I thought you two would have known better than to condone these sort of irresponsible and dangerous actions,Still we learn something new every day eh!




Billy, slow down and read my post again, or is there a problem with english?

I never condoned any dangerous riding actions, I AGREED that by eliminating the slip road, it eliminated any POTENTUALL dangers from using it

[Shaun]

OK. I'll bite...

Every racer (plus officials and volunteers) signs a waiver that states "Racing is dangerous...etc' This must be signed each and every time someone participates at a race day. Everyone knows that completely eliminating all risk is not possible.

The simple fact is - just being out on the track holds some level of danger. The rules are there to minimise these dangers, and it is expected that everyone will follow them. And that includes following instructions given via flags.
I don't buy Choppa's "I was confused". He is too experienced to not know the rules and what to do at the sliproad.




By saying that roofing is dangerous and that your workers know it is dangerous '' DOES NOT'' Make it any safer

Reccognising POTENTUAL dangerous situations and elliminating them DOES

I clearly see Spyda's intentions with this thread hence I have jumped in, it is to try and eliminate hazards

[codgyoleracer]

Billy, slow down and read my post again, or is there a problem with english?

I never condoned any dangerous riding actions, I AGREED that by eliminating the slip road, it eliminated any POTENTUALL dangers from using it


What he said :niceone:

[MSTRS]

By saying that roofing is dangerous and that your workers know it is dangerous '' DOES NOT'' Make it any safer

Reccognising POTENTUAL dangerous situations and elliminating them DOES

I clearly see Spyda's intentions with this thread hence I have jumped in, it is to try and eliminate hazards

You miss the point, Shaun...
Racing is dangerous. Fullstop.
There is only one way to eliminate any danger. Don't race. Don't even walk your bike around the track, one at a time.
The slip-road as a point of 'potential' danger is a strawman argument. There is almost zero danger there IF the riders use it according to the rules.
"ALMOST ZERO DANGER" is about all that any rule/s can achieve...BUT...only if the riders etc obey those rules.
And then we come to the subject of COMMONSENSE. Because not every situation is covered by a rule, is it?

[Kevin G]

The green flag to cross the track is displayed at Flag Point 8 (at pit entry - you may not have seen us use this flag point Paul) and, as with all track crossings, Starts, Red Flags, Black Flags, Jump Start Boards etc, is under control of Race Control. They are not used without instruction from Race Control. A flag point cannot even ask to use one.
They only have discretion to use Yellow, Yellow/Orange, and Blue flags.

Bike recovery is under control of Race Control.

If any rider sees something they don't like go see the Riders Rep. Riders Rep then brings it to Race Control. Don't post your concern after the meeting on some website.

You should know this as it's in your rule book. By entering a Race Meeting you have signed a legal, binding contract saying you have read, understood, and will obey it.

Consequences for breaking the rules...some say fine them, that will do or mean bugger all to some or little to others. The best form of punishment is to take away the riders ability to do what he wants and enjoys. Break the rules you go home, day over simple as that. the club can also ban them from the next meeting they are running by simply not accepting the entry. Clubs have the right to decline any entry if the reason is reasonable and of course safety is more than reasonable...that is the only way to get them to listen and respect the rules...hit them where it hurts. Other option is to disqualify them from the results and take away those very clearly prized winter series points....
Other option is to report them to the big bad guys at MNZ and they get their licence suspended, fined or worse....made to do the jobs like flag marshal, sign in help and other organisational tasks so they get an understanding from the organizers point of view....
If the riders get away with it they will continue...strange fact about human nature.

Rules are the rules, riders follow them and officials enforce them. If they need changed follow the correct procedure to do so

I am gobsmacked to see after such awful circumstances that recently occurred at Manfield that such issues are still occurring.

Just my view... criticism can now proceed without delay.

Kevin Goddard

[CHOPPA]

Im not trying to justify my actions. I was in the wrong but it was a mistake in confusing circumstances. There is a little more to it than most of you realise because of what we had gone through after the first race.

Im raising a different point and pointing out a safety concern as this was the point of the thread.

There seems to be 3 sorts of people discussing this thread.

1, People that know fuck all and are jumping on a band wagon.
2, Bureaucrats that like to band together to make sure we all know they are king dingaling
3, Internationally experienced racers

It seems when people are talking about the slip road there is a lot of ifs buts and maybes. Seems like a very easy solution to completely eliminate the problem but there are some egos here that dont want to agree with me. Maybe we could give it a few weeks so they can come up with the solution?

What do you think would happen If there was a potential hazard at work that I identified and provided a solution for the employer and they ignored it and something happened?

My incident has just highlighted how a momentary lapse in concentration or a confusing situation has the potential to end very badly and I would hate to see an accident happen when it is such a simple solution to solve the problem.

Id like to see how anyone can disagree with that....

[Shaun]

Im not trying to justify my actions. I was in the wrong but it was a mistake in confusing circumstances. There is a little more to it than most of you realise because of what we had gone through after the first race.

Im raising a different point and pointing out a safety concern as this was the point of the thread.

There seems to be 3 sorts of people discussing this thread.

1, People that know fuck all and are jumping on a band wagon.
2, Bureaucrats that like to band together to make sure we all know they are king dingaling
3, Internationally experienced racers

It seems when people are talking about the slip road there is a lot of ifs buts and maybes. Seems like a very easy solution to completely eliminate the problem but there are some egos here that dont want to agree with me. Maybe we could give it a few weeks so they can come up with the solution?

What do you think would happen If there was a potential hazard at work that I identified and provided a solution for the employer and they ignored it and something happened?

My incident has just highlighted how a momentary lapse in concentration or a confusing situation has the potential to end very badly and I would hate to see an accident happen when it is such a simple solution to solve the problem.

Id like to see how anyone can disagree with that....



Very rational and logical reply Choppa

Even though I think you're a wanker:headbang:

[roadracingoldfart]

The green flag IS controlled by Race Control....


Well thanks for that previously known info.

[roadracingoldfart]

The green flag to cross the track is displayed at Flag Point 8 (at pit entry - you may not have seen us use this flag point Paul) and, as with all track crossings, Starts, Red Flags, Black Flags, Jump Start Boards etc, is under control of Race Control. They are not used without instruction from Race Control. A flag point cannot even ask to use one.
They only have discretion to use Yellow, Yellow/Orange, and Blue flags.



If any rider sees something they don't like go see the Riders Rep. Riders Rep then brings it to Race Control. Don't post your concern after the meeting on some website.

You should know this as it's in your rule book. By entering a Race Meeting you have signed a legal, binding contract saying you have read, understood, and will obey it.

My point was Skunk that there appears to be a " human" element in the flag wave , not waved situation , i simply meant there can be no issue with a light (which can be a laser to kill offendes) from the position i mentioned and there can only be track crossing with this light as the Law.
I have seen the flag point and still stick by what i previously said.
I also know what the flag point freedom of display is , i still keep up to some of the regs you know.
I agree with your statement about the riders rep . Bitch when its fresh , not later when you start believing your bullshit after dwelling on it for 2 days or more.
As for your last paragraph , i hope thats not aimed at me cause im a good boy now and dont ride fast anymore.

[Billy]

Im not trying to justify my actions. I was in the wrong but it was a mistake in confusing circumstances. There is a little more to it than most of you realise because of what we had gone through after the first race.

Im raising a different point and pointing out a safety concern as this was the point of the thread.

There seems to be 3 sorts of people discussing this thread.

1, People that know fuck all and are jumping on a band wagon.
2, Bureaucrats that like to band together to make sure we all know they are king dingaling
3, Internationally experienced racers

It seems when people are talking about the slip road there is a lot of ifs buts and maybes. Seems like a very easy solution to completely eliminate the problem but there are some egos here that dont want to agree with me. Maybe we could give it a few weeks so they can come up with the solution?

What do you think would happen If there was a potential hazard at work that I identified and provided a solution for the employer and they ignored it and something happened?

My incident has just highlighted how a momentary lapse in concentration or a confusing situation has the potential to end very badly and I would hate to see an accident happen when it is such a simple solution to solve the problem.

Id like to see how anyone can disagree with that....

OOPS,You forgot one group,

That would be the board members,Commissioners and race officials that are charged with running the sport and organising the race meetings,Oh and having to deal with the police and the coroner when some self confessed expert decides that all of a sudden a slip road that has been in use for around 26 years without incident is all of a sudden to dangerous,So he decides to cross the start finish straight (The area where all 4 solo motorcyclist fatalities have taken place at Manfeild) before being signalled that it is safe for EVERYONE concerned for you to do so.

Then theres the other group you forgot,The MNZ trained flag marshalls that you refer to as children,You know the ones,Theyre the people that also have to deal with the aftermath of dumb decision making after spending countless hours of training and standing out there in all sorts of weather so you can go racing.

Quite simply Sloan,If you or your international buddies,Who incidently have ZERO input into the running of the sport in any capacity,Have a safety concern,Your first port of call should be the MNZ website to instigate a rulechange based on safety(seems odd to me that all of a sudden theres a safety issue with the slip road at Manfeild and none of your outspoken international buddies have complained about it before).

Finally,Try and take some personal responsibility for the mistakes you make will you,Instead of pointing the finger at anybody that makes comment,Most experienced person at the track that day,Seriously ????

[Biggles08]

wow...this is getting interesting!:corn:

[Kevin G]

OOPS,You forgot one group,

That would be the board members,Commissioners and race officials that are charged with running the sport and organising the race meetings,Oh and having to deal with the police and the coroner when some self confessed expert decides that all of a sudden a slip road that has been in use for around 26 years without incident is all of a sudden to dangerous,So he decides to cross the start finish straight (The area where all 4 solo motorcyclist fatalities have taken place at Manfeild) before being signalled that it is safe for EVERYONE concerned for you to do so.

Then theres the other group you forgot,The MNZ trained flag marshalls that you refer to as children,You know the ones,Theyre the people that also have to deal with the aftermath of dumb decision making after spending countless hours of training and standing out there in all sorts of weather so you can go racing.

Quite simply Sloan,If you or your international buddies,Who incidently have ZERO input into the running of the sport in any capacity,Have a safety concern,Your first port of call should be the MNZ website to instigate a rulechange based on safety(seems odd to me that all of a sudden theres a safety issue with the slip road at Manfeild and none of your outspoken international buddies have complained about it before).

Finally,Try and take some personal responsibility for the mistakes you make will you,Instead of pointing the finger at anybody that makes comment,Most experienced person at the track that day,Seriously ????

Ding A Ling Billy!

[CHOPPA]

OOPS,You forgot one group,

That would be the board members,Commissioners and race officials that are charged with running the sport and organising the race meetings,Oh and having to deal with the police and the coroner when some self confessed expert decides that all of a sudden a slip road that has been in use for around 26 years without incident is all of a sudden to dangerous,So he decides to cross the start finish straight (The area where all 4 solo motorcyclist fatalities have taken place at Manfeild) before being signalled that it is safe for EVERYONE concerned for you to do so.

Then theres the other group you forgot,The MNZ trained flag marshalls that you refer to as children,You know the ones,Theyre the people that also have to deal with the aftermath of dumb decision making after spending countless hours of training and standing out there in all sorts of weather so you can go racing.

Quite simply Sloan,If you or your international buddies,Who incidently have ZERO input into the running of the sport in any capacity,Have a safety concern,Your first port of call should be the MNZ website to instigate a rulechange based on safety(seems odd to me that all of a sudden theres a safety issue with the slip road at Manfeild and none of your outspoken international buddies have complained about it before).

Finally,Try and take some personal responsibility for the mistakes you make will you,Instead of pointing the finger at anybody that makes comment,Most experienced person at the track that day,Seriously ????

Didnt forget them at all. You all fit into the 2nd category. Here you go off on a rant when you quite simply have not read my post or taken a moment to consider the possibly benefits in what I have just said.

I have taken responsibility for my actions, it was dealt with at the track and I admitted it was my mistake and apologized to the both Skunk and Clive.

I have also voiced my opinion to the stewards at that meeting regarding the slip road.

I now know that I am wrong, there is no safety issue because nothing has happened in the past so it couldnt possibly happen in the future. Im just pleased you took my thoughts into consideration. Your obviously a very rational man.

As far as the marshals were concerned. This was a completely different instance than when I crossed the track. Im not blaming them. I was making a comment that when they are moving around within there marshalling area that they should be careful what they do with the flag. Holding the flag above your head while they negotiate moving to the track side while walking side to side before the track is clear could possibly be seen as a green flag being waved.

And yes I would say over the passed 20 years I would have attended more events than most of the people at the event.

At the moment im pretty busy with racing the sport. You wouldnt have a sport if you didnt have people like me who race.... I do as much possible for the sport in general and I do what I can for the riders in the sport. When I have finished racing I will be an official or a steward or a commissioner and I will be fucken brilliant :lol:

[CHOPPA]

I might be vocal with any complaints I have but im also quick to give paise when the club has done well. The Vic club has really stepped up, they are doing things by the book and I personally congratulated Skunk on the work that they had done. Its a brilliant series and im pleased to be part of it.

If I make a suggestion it should promote healthy discussion but it always gets taken as im attacking someone and they get all on the defensive rather than taking what I say with an open mind.

I noticed at round 1 that Vic club had adopted an idea that I had raised about displaying blue flags to locate marshal points on the first lap of practice so not to confuse people if there was an actual yellow flag situation. This is a great idea (if i do say so myself) but unfortunately it was changed back at R2 because it didnt fit within the MNZ rules but VIC club are trying to have it changed.

I can dig up the thread but even that idea was originally ridiculed in the beginning

[worm13]

Maybe with mx but maybe not so much road racing, yes a point has been made that it could be unsafe.... your right there it could be unsafe and yes you would be right in regards of work place risk assement also what you have missed is what risk would arise if we did the full lap of pulling off and cool down laps speeds very from rider to rider does that mean we all should run a speed limiter in the regards of a pit lane limiter or something like that, have you assed the hazard here does the risk out weigh the risk of using the slip road... food for thought isnt it. (speed at the end of the back straight vs speed before slip road)
if we minimise the risk and at this point the system that ive know in road racing for the past 14 years has worked fine and we have been lucky with people who have had brain explosions and crossed the track havent killed someone or even hit another rider, If your not happy with what is and has been working well why not even talk to manfield and ask them what they think of it, they are the ones that have given us a faclity to use in this regards? surely if they had any concren on the way we use it, wouldnt you think they will would put a hold us using it in the same way manfield dont allow national races to be run on the full track, (my past employer was a big wig on the board for manfield a few years ago and asked the question why it doesnt get used and got that as answer) you may find they may listen to what you have to say how ever at the end of the day if they dont want to get invovled MNZ get the last say at the end of the day.

And dude the comment about if it wasnt for us racing then it wouldnt happen at all is a pretty shit box attitude towards the people that give up there time to run the show, put up with at time horfic sights from injurys etc etc. if we all turned up to go racing and they didnt... whats going to happen?? No fucking way will we get to and race, but if 20 riders didnt turn up but we had the marshals and everyone else who make it possable guess what we get to go out.

Im all for the death tally to stop!! but at this point the buck stops with us the riders in most cases

[Kevin G]

Didnt forget them at all. You all fit into the 2nd category. Here you go off on a rant when you quite simply have not read my post or taken a moment to consider the possibly benefits in what I have just said.

I have taken responsibility for my actions, it was dealt with at the track and I admitted it was my mistake and apologized to the both Skunk and Clive.

I have also voiced my opinion to the stewards at that meeting regarding the slip road.

I now know that I am wrong, there is no safety issue because nothing has happened in the past so it couldnt possibly happen in the future. Im just pleased you took my thoughts into consideration. Your obviously a very rational man.

As far as the marshals were concerned. This was a completely different instance than when I crossed the track. Im not blaming them. I was making a comment that when they are moving around within there marshalling area that they should be careful what they do with the flag. Holding the flag above your head while they negotiate moving to the track side while walking side to side before the track is clear could possibly be seen as a green flag being waved.

And yes I would say over the passed 20 years I would have attended more events than most of the people at the event.

At the moment im pretty busy with racing the sport. You wouldnt have a sport if you didnt have people like me who race.... I do as much possible for the sport in general and I do what I can for the riders in the sport. When I have finished racing I will be an official or a steward or a commissioner and I will be fucken brilliant :lol:

And I thought you were one of the few with a brain...why get into attacking others points of view or statements? As you say its a discussion but if people do not agree with your position or point then they are stupid, King dingalings (which is pretty funny btw) or inexperienced....There are lots of high emotions here for obvious reasons, lets not turn this into a poo slinging affair.
I think we would all agree if there is a way to make it safer then of course everyone would want to do this but....it cannot be done on this website (believe it or not) This is not even the right place to start it! Billy or the MNZ health and safety commissioner (lyn) can kick the process off to change things but not via this site. (I refer to things like your suggestion of flag colours) The slip road thing is really a Manfield specific thing and is better handled by the clubs officials that runs the event.

[CHOPPA]

And dude the comment about if it wasnt for us racing then it wouldnt happen at all is a pretty shit box attitude towards the people that give up there time to run the show, put up with at time horfic sights from injurys etc etc. if we all turned up to go racing and they didnt... whats going to happen?? No fucking way will we get to and race, but if 20 riders didnt turn up but we had the marshals and everyone else who make it possable guess what we get to go out.

Im all for the death tally to stop!! but at this point the buck stops with us the riders in most cases

Just a bit of tongue in cheek on that one mate :msn-wink:



And I thought you were one of the few with a brain...why get into attacking others points of view or statements? As you say its a discussion but if people do not agree with your position or point then they are stupid, King dingalings (which is pretty funny btw) or inexperienced....There are lots of high emotions here for obvious reasons, lets not turn this into a poo slinging affair.
I think we would all agree if there is a way to make it safer then of course everyone would want to do this but....it cannot be done on this website (believe it or not) This is not even the right place to start it! Billy or the MNZ health and safety commissioner (lyn) can kick the process off to change things but not via this site. (I refer to things like your suggestion of flag colours) The slip road thing is really a Manfield specific thing and is better handled by the clubs officials that runs the event.

Fair point.

[Billy]

And yes I would say over the passed 20 years I would have attended more events than most of the people at the event.

At the moment im pretty busy with racing the sport. You wouldnt have a sport if you didnt have people like me who race.... I do as much possible for the sport in general and I do what I can for the riders in the sport. When I have finished racing I will be an official or a steward or a commissioner and I will be fucken brilliant :lol:[/QUOTE]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!Now that IS funny,What a rockstar you are.

Tell you what Sloan,Me and the other 100 plus volunteers that are required to put these events together and run the sport will all step away and then you and your mates can turn up on raceday with a pen and a piece of paper and make up the rules as you go,Even better,Make that a pencil and a rubber so it doesnt get to messy when you change them to cover up your mistakes.

Have a nice day mate,Rant over LOL!

[Biggles08]

For some reason this came to mind after reading this thread:

Who's the boss????

When the Lord made Man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be the Boss. The Brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be Boss. The Legs argued that since they took the Man wherever he wanted to go, he should be the Boss. The Stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be the boss. The Eyes said that without them, Man would be helpless, so they should be Boss. Then the Ass Hole applied for the Job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard that the arse hole became mad and closed up. After a few days the Brain went foggy, the Legs got wobbly, the Stomach got ill, the Eyes got crossed and were unable to see. They all finally conceded and made the Arse Hole Boss. This proves you don't have to be a Brain to be Boss...Just an dirty smelly Arse Hole.

So now lets have an argument as to who wants to be the Arse Hole!

At the end of the day, everyone who is involved in motorcycle racing WANTS to be involved and all play their part in the machine that is our sport. That's to say racers, officials, flag marshals, mechanics, sponsors and anyone else I have forgotten. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to do anything so It's completely irrelevant who is more important because we wouldn't have one without the other.

[Billy]

For some reason this came to mind after reading this thread:

Who's the boss????

When the Lord made Man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be the Boss. The Brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be Boss. The Legs argued that since they took the Man wherever he wanted to go, he should be the Boss. The Stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be the boss. The Eyes said that without them, Man would be helpless, so they should be Boss. Then the Ass Hole applied for the Job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard that the arse hole became mad and closed up. After a few days the Brain went foggy, the Legs got wobbly, the Stomach got ill, the Eyes got crossed and were unable to see. They all finally conceded and made the Arse Hole Boss. This proves you don't have to be a Brain to be Boss...Just an dirty smelly Arse Hole.

So now lets have an argument as to who wants to be the Arse Hole!

At the end of the day, everyone who is involved in motorcycle racing WANTS to be involved and all play their part in the machine that is our sport. That's to say racers, officials, flag marshals, mechanics, sponsors and anyone else I have forgotten. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to do anything so It's completely irrelevant who is more important because we wouldn't have one without the other.

Not quite true Marcus,

Example,Say for arguments sake you,Choppa,Craig Shirriffs and Glen Williams dont turn up to race at a meeting,Do you seriously think everybody else will go home????


Or say Skunk,Bernie Harnett,Clive Banks and 2 qualified flaggies don't turn up,Now where are you???

Or say the roadrace commissioner were to inform the Vic club,That as they are unable to officiate at a safe and reasonable level despite me giving them a directive to do so,I will be withdrawing their permits and not issuing anymore until such time as they can prove too me and the board that they are going to take action when riders at their meetings breach serious safety rules,I mean isn't that like me identifying a hazard in the workplace and acting on it ?????? We as a collective OWE it to Janice Brehaut,That Mark did not die in vain and that the good to come out of his tragic death is that WE ensure that NOBODY has to go through pain and suffering she has had to endure because some einstein thought he could break a serious safety rule,2 months out and where are we????

Yip your right we do ALL have a right to have some input to our sport,But it has to be done through the correct channels and in an orderly manner,Did I act on your request in the last couple of days?Did I inform you immediately of our plans to deal with your request? Yes I did,Thats how it works and it works very well when the correct protocols are used.

Call me an arsehole if you ,But that does not make me the boss,All I'm gonna do is turn the steering wheel in the direction the members force me to.

[SWERVE]

some of you guys should try racing in a series/championship with severly enforced rules and rules that not only cover the race track but what you can/cannot do anywhere inside the perimiter fence. A security guard on every gate you pass through and have the wrong/no pass and you dont enter.

You get sent home/ fined for discretions with your pit area... let alone a blatent saftey infringement on track.
Official letters/notices are given for things such as jump starts (jake lewis will confirm that) and it goes on record.

Do you want it to be like that............!
No... then follow the existing rules and think yourself lucky.

Personally i prefer the more stringent option........ your entry fees are sky high to pay for all the officialdom/etc..... but there is no bitchin (every complaint/protest has to be official) but meetings run like clockwork (generally)

My 2 cents.

[Maido]

I love racing in the south, its too cold to go near a track for at least 2 more months.
Reading all this makes me really miss the sport in the off season.

[jasonu]

some of you guys should try racing in a series/championship with severly enforced rules and rules that not only cover the race track but what you can/cannot do anywhere inside the perimiter fence. A security guard on every gate you pass through and have the wrong/no pass and you dont enter.

You get sent home/ fined for discretions with your pit area... let alone a blatent saftey infringement on track.
Official letters/notices are given for things such as jump starts (jake lewis will confirm that) and it goes on record.

My 2 cents.

Actually mate, that sounds pretty good to me. With rules (that are enforced consistantly) like that everyone would know exactly what they can and cannot do.
Just my 2 cents too.

[Biggles08]

Not quite true Marcus,

Example,Say for arguments sake you,Choppa,Craig Shirriffs and Glen Williams dont turn up to race at a meeting,Do you seriously think everybody else will go home????


Call me an arsehole if you ,But that does not make me the boss,All I'm gonna do is turn the steering wheel in the direction the members force me to.

Not quite my point Billy and I wasn't calling anyone an arsehole (but for the record Drew is) and like you explained, there would be no racing if those events unfolded...however, if no racers showed up (not just the rock-stars you mentioned) there also wouldn't be an event. After all, the whole point is to have bikes going around in circles.

This next point in no way is supposed to be aimed at anyone or meant in a negative way or even directed at this thread necessarily...if you take it that way it is your problem as I am not intending it to be abrasive....

We need to get rid of the "us and them" attitude that seems so engrained in those involved in this sport...the racers are not the enemy just as the organizers shouldn't be the racers enemy. I'm not sure why this is and maybe it is frustration on behalf of those I am referring to because they have put so much effort into the sport behind the scenes and then feel like no one cares or listens and they don't get any recognition for this effort/commitment. Then someone comes along and tries to change the way things are done which adds fuel to the fire.

I for one think EVERYONE that is involved with VMCC are doing a fantastic job and I make sure I tell Skunk this most meetings. But just because I don't go around to every flag marshal, every person in a high vis vest, everyone up in the tower or every MNZ representative does not make me any less appreciative of the effort they are putting in. I don't think there are any racers that I know of that would not appreciate what is done to organize these events for us...that's to say I don't know ANYONE that doesn't appreciate it. This now being a given, changing the way things are done to improve things for the sport should be embraced as much as possible by all wouldn't you say? We don't want to be re-inventing the wheel but discussions about these potential changes or ideas can be quite useful on sites such as this if all the BS is filtered out. I just think people get to wound up about preserving their legacy somewhat and forget the whole point they are involved in motorcycle racing just to defend said legacy.

[Billy]

Not quite my point Billy and I wasn't calling anyone an arsehole (but for the record Drew is) and like you explained, there would be no racing if those events unfolded...however, if no racers showed up (not just the rock-stars you mentioned) there also wouldn't be an event. After all, the whole point is to have bikes going around in circles.

This next point in no way is supposed to be aimed at anyone or meant in a negative way or even directed at this thread necessarily...if you take it that way it is your problem as I am not intending it to be abrasive....

We need to get rid of the "us and them" attitude that seems so engrained in those involved in this sport...the racers are not the enemy just as the organizers shouldn't be the racers enemy. I'm not sure why this is and maybe it is frustration on behalf of those I am referring to because they have put so much effort into the sport behind the scenes and then feel like no one cares or listens and they don't get any recognition for this effort/commitment. Then someone comes along and tries to change the way things are done which adds fuel to the fire.

I for one think EVERYONE that is involved with VMCC are doing a fantastic job and I make sure I tell Skunk this most meetings. But just because I don't go around to every flag marshal, every person in a high vis vest, everyone up in the tower or every MNZ representative does not make me any less appreciative of the effort they are putting in. I don't think there are any racers that I know of that would not appreciate what is done to organize these events for us...that's to say I don't know ANYONE that doesn't appreciate it. This now being a given, changing the way things are done to improve things for the sport should be embraced as much as possible by all wouldn't you say? We don't want to be re-inventing the wheel but discussions about these potential changes or ideas can be quite useful on sites such as this if all the BS is filtered out. I just think people get to wound up about preserving their legacy somewhat and forget the whole point they are involved in motorcycle racing just to defend said legacy.

Haha,

I know you weren't implying I was an arsehole,What I was suggesting was,That if somebody has too be if thats what it takes to save lives,Then I'm only too happy to be that person.

As far as the "us and them" attitude is concerned,I agree that there should be honest and open discussion amongst ALL members when it comes to deciding the future rules and their enforcement and I defy anybody to tell me when or where they have approached me as Roadrace commissioner and I haven't gone out of my way to see their needs are met,Or concerns aren't atleast looked at and a report made back to that member.

BUT !!! Come raceday and all friendships are out the door because the rules HAVE to be enforced in a rational manner,Thats just how it has to be,Nationals for 2013 will be a very different animal to last year,We have a technical rep and series steward onboard who take their jobs just as seriously as I do mine,There will be a designated parc ferme and there will be technical checks at every round,ANYBODY who falls outside the rules WILL be dealt with in an appropriate manner,If any irregularities are discovered before a race,Then you will be prevented from taking part in that event and until such times as your machine or rider conduct comply.

I did not take this job on for the free cap and badge(Which incidentally you don't get,In fact despite putting in 30 hours per week of my time free of charge,I still get to pay for my licence LOL),Nor did I take it on because I thought everybody would agree with every decision we make,What I will not put up with is competitors who think they can break the rules willy nilly and then talk their way out of it.Update on the slip road at Manfeild,Steve is on annual leave til the 5th of August and I have left a message on his answerphone requesting he gets back too me asap.

[jellywrestler]

Not quite true Marcus,

Example,Say for arguments sake Craig Shirriffs dont turn up to race at a meeting,Do you seriously think everybody else will go home????


I'm lay a tenner that the man selling pies would.

[Biggles08]

Haha,

I know you weren't implying I was an arsehole,What I was suggesting was,That if somebody has too be if thats what it takes to save lives,Then I'm only too happy to be that person.

As far as the "us and them" attitude is concerned,I agree that there should be honest and open discussion amongst ALL members when it comes to deciding the future rules and their enforcement and I defy anybody to tell me when or where they have approached me as Roadrace commissioner and I haven't gone out of my way to see their needs are met,Or concerns aren't atleast looked at and a report made back to that member.

BUT !!! Come raceday and all friendships are out the door because the rules HAVE to be enforced in a rational manner,Thats just how it has to be,Nationals for 2013 will be a very different animal to last year,We have a technical rep and series steward onboard who take their jobs just as seriously as I do mine,There will be a designated parc ferme and there will be technical checks at every round,ANYBODY who falls outside the rules WILL be dealt with in an appropriate manner,If any irregularities are discovered before a race,Then you will be prevented from taking part in that event and until such times as your machine or rider conduct comply.

I did not take this job on for the free cap and badge(Which incidentally you don't get,In fact despite putting in 30 hours per week of my time free of charge,I still get to pay for my licence LOL),Nor did I take it on because I thought everybody would agree with every decision we make,What I will not put up with is competitors who think they can break the rules willy nilly and then talk their way out of it.Update on the slip road at Manfeild,Steve is on annual leave til the 5th of August and I have left a message on his answerphone requesting he gets back too me asap.


Fair call and I can't disagree with any of that.....arsehole.

[Billy]

Fair call and I can't disagree with any of that.....arsehole.

No worries Morris/Maurice/Marcus,I'm loving that new name,Kind of suits me really Hahahaha!

[Kevin G]

No worries Morris/Maurice/Marcus,I'm loving that new name,Kind of suits me really Hahahaha!

I think King Dingaling is waaaaay better

[Billy]

I think King Dingaling is waaaaay better

Bwahahahahaha!Okay you got me,King Dingaling the areshole! Howzat????Whatever its just a name LOL!

[roadracingoldfart]

Haha,

I know you weren't implying I was an arsehole,.

Yes he was he just got a little bit worried you would pick on him ya nasty fag.(sorry , Arsehole)



I'm lay a tenner that the man selling pies would.

I love that angle Mr Jelly lol.


No worries Morris/Maurice/Marcus,I'm loving that new name,Kind of suits me really Hahahaha!

Umm Billy , thats not a new name for you buddy.

[Maido]

I love racing in the south, its too cold to go near a track for at least 2 more months.
Reading all this makes me really miss the sport in the off season.

[CHOPPA]

I love racing in the south, its too cold to go near a track for at least 2 more months.
Reading all this makes me really miss the sport in the off season.

Need something to keep the adrenaline pumping between races! KB has been a bit boring lately

[jellywrestler]

King Dingaling the areshole!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoApJpm-J0k

[RobGassit]

Jeez your'e a stirrer, first Chop and now Billy! Like lambs to the slaughter.

[Billy]

Jeez your'e a stirrer, first Chop and now Billy! Like lambs to the slaughter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoApJpm-J0k

Hahahahahahaha!Classic,You got me you bastard,You'll keep

[jellywrestler]

Jeez your'e a stirrer, first Chop and now Billy! Like lambs to the slaughter.

yep and next I'll mention a rider at pukekohe in mid-may who on a open day, in one session, where there were Superbikes to classics to novices to road bikes on the track, overshot the pitlane entry.
He then DID A U TURN, RODE BACK DOWN THE TRACK AND DID ANOTHER U TURN into the pit entrance, all in the middle of a session!!!!

[Drew]

he then did a u turn, rode back down the track and did another u turn into the pit entrance, all in the middle of a session!!!!

whoever the fuck that was, is now my hero!!!!

[Drew]

I wasn't calling anyone an arsehole (but for the record Drew is)

You cunts all got that? I'M THE FUCKIN BOSS!

[Tony.OK]

As MNZ roadrace commissioner, I have been asked to refrain from posting on this site, So have asked the moderators to post this up as a sticky thread, To enable me to inform the users of this site of any upcoming idea's we have for change as it appears not many from this site, Frequent the MNZ site, I will NOT be answering any of your queries on this site.

Proper shit stirring!! :crazy:

I for one enjoy reading both sides of the discussions and think it can only help in the long run, at least it gets ppl thinking.

[codgyoleracer]

whoever the fuck that was, is now my hero!!!!

I've seen you doing U turns on the track as well Drew, - but admittidly you were on your butt at the time.........

[Drew]

I've seen you doing U turns on the track as well Drew, - but admittidly you were on your butt at the time.........

Pot kettle, fanta pants. Onto the back straight at pukied.

[scott411]

yep and next I'll mention a rider at pukekohe in mid-may who on a open day, in one session, where there were Superbikes to classics to novices to road bikes on the track, overshot the pitlane entry.
He then DID A U TURN, RODE BACK DOWN THE TRACK AND DID ANOTHER U TURN into the pit entrance, all in the middle of a session!!!!

if i didnt see it myself i swear you would be lying, it was possibly the most stupid thing i have ever seen on a race track

[Billy]

yep and next I'll mention a rider at pukekohe in mid-may who on a open day, in one session, where there were Superbikes to classics to novices to road bikes on the track, overshot the pitlane entry.
He then DID A U TURN, RODE BACK DOWN THE TRACK AND DID ANOTHER U TURN into the pit entrance, all in the middle of a session!!!!


if i didnt see it myself i swear you would be lying, it was possibly the most stupid thing i have ever seen on a race track


Sorry guys,I couldnt possibly comment for fear of another official complaint about me to the Board for an abuse of power and bullying,You'll just have to give the guy a pat on the back for showing some initiative and proving you don't need to complete the lap to get back to the pits.Ive been made to see the light,I am an embarassment to the sport,My bad,Oh well guess I'll just have to find something else to do with my 30 hours a week,Like fishing and going out for tea and all those other horrendous things we have to do in the real life

[jellywrestler]

going out for tea about time you packed on a bit off beef Billy, I've been worried sick about you.

[codgyoleracer]

Pot kettle, fanta pants. Onto the back straight at pukied.

This is true, but at least i looked good doing it (& lasted one more lap than you..... ) :weep: Wasnt a good day for either really :-)

[codgyoleracer]

Sorry guys,I couldnt possibly comment for fear of another official complaint about me to the Board for an abuse of power and bullying,You'll just have to give the guy a pat on the back for showing some initiative and proving you don't need to complete the lap to get back to the pits.Ive been made to see the light,I am an embarassment to the sport,My bad,Oh well guess I'll just have to find something else to do with my 30 hours a week,Like fishing and going out for tea and all those other horrendous things we have to do in the real life

Would seem a bit odd writing a letter of complaint to the person you have to complain about though.....

[Billy]

Would seem a bit odd writing a letter of complaint to the person you have to complain about though.....

Mmmm!Well what can I say,Maybe somebody is not reading the mental note in your signature properly LOL.

I would have to wonder how you knew that of course,Somebody must be grandstanding ?Wow didnt see that coming :lol:

[Drew]

This is true, but at least i looked good doing it (& lasted one more lap than you..... ) :weep: Wasnt a good day for either really :-)

Was an all out shit of a weekend for me mate. And yeah, you were more spectacular than me for sure. Funny as a fight when you popped your head up over the fence.

[CHOPPA]

Sorry guys,I couldnt possibly comment for fear of another official complaint about me to the Board for an abuse of power and bullying,You'll just have to give the guy a pat on the back for showing some initiative and proving you don't need to complete the lap to get back to the pits.Ive been made to see the light,I am an embarassment to the sport,My bad,Oh well guess I'll just have to find something else to do with my 30 hours a week,Like fishing and going out for tea and all those other horrendous things we have to do in the real life

Starting to sound like a broken record Graham :baby:

[RobGassit]

yep and next I'll mention a rider at pukekohe in mid-may who on a open day, in one session, where there were Superbikes to classics to novices to road bikes on the track, overshot the pitlane entry.
He then DID A U TURN, RODE BACK DOWN THE TRACK AND DID ANOTHER U TURN into the pit entrance, all in the middle of a session!!!!

Yeah but he saw a green flag so it was all legit. He even indicated 3 seconds before each turn.:wacko:

[CHOPPA]

Yeah but he saw a green flag so it was all legit. He even indicated 3 seconds before each turn.:wacko:

hahahahaha I see what you done there :killingme Good one :niceone:

[Str8 Jacket]

Starting to sound like a broken record Graham :baby:

Could say the same about you and a few others too mate...... :cool:

[Billy]

Yeah but he saw a green flag so it was all legit. He even indicated 3 seconds before each turn.:wacko:

:brick::brick::brick::brick::brick::brick::brick:: brick::brick::brick:

[Drew]

Shit fight, shit fight, shit fight!!!

[Shaun]

Sorry guys,I couldnt possibly comment for fear of another official complaint about me to the Board for an abuse of power and bullying,You'll just have to give the guy a pat on the back for showing some initiative and proving you don't need to complete the lap to get back to the pits.Ive been made to see the light,I am an embarassment to the sport,My bad,Oh well guess I'll just have to find something else to do with my 30 hours a week,Like fishing and going out for tea and all those other horrendous things we have to do in the real life



whoever went to the effort of doing that is just a total soft cock wanker coward

[Drew]

whoever went to the effort of doing that is just a total soft cock wanker coward

Judges score. 4.5

Can do better, with the material provided in this thread.:lol:

[CHOPPA]

whoever went to the effort of doing that is just a total soft cock wanker coward

Update


Well where do I start,

Firstly the reported incidents at Manfeild last weekend,
It appears there are those amongst us who still have no respect for the safety and wellbeing of their fellow competitors and in one particular case thinks they know more than the officials and can change the rules mid meeting at their own discretion.I have brought the said incidents to the attention of the officials committee in the form of an official complaint.This sort of behaviour needs to be put to an end asap and will NOT be tolerated at the roadrace championships,So get used to it now or don't bother turning up at Ruapuna in January.

I also put in a counter claim to MNZ. I have since removed it because all I can see coming of it is more people getting dragged through the mud. Using more of our volunteers valuable time and resources.

I dont think anyone can honestly call either of us a soft cock wanker coward Shaun. Well maybe they could call me a wanker lol

[Drew]

Update


Well where do I start,

Firstly the reported incidents at Manfeild last weekend,
It appears there are those amongst us who still have no respect for the safety and wellbeing of their fellow competitors and in one particular case thinks they know more than the officials and can change the rules mid meeting at their own discretion.I have brought the said incidents to the attention of the officials committee in the form of an official complaint.This sort of behaviour needs to be put to an end asap and will NOT be tolerated at the roadrace championships,So get used to it now or don't bother turning up at Ruapuna in January.


That gets no score at all Chop Chop, more effort required.

[RobGassit]

Say what you like about KB, it ain't boring..

[Drew]

Aye?

This has been a fuckin let down big time!!!!

I watched some grass grow earlier, but had to come back to this thread for fear of over excitement.

[CHOPPA]

Aye?

This has been a fuckin let down big time!!!!

I watched some grass grow earlier, but had to come back to this thread for fear of over excitement.

In the interest of the sport a treaty was signed....

[Shaun]

Update


Well where do I start,

Firstly the reported incidents at Manfeild last weekend,
It appears there are those amongst us who still have no respect for the safety and wellbeing of their fellow competitors and in one particular case thinks they know more than the officials and can change the rules mid meeting at their own discretion.I have brought the said incidents to the attention of the officials committee in the form of an official complaint.This sort of behaviour needs to be put to an end asap and will NOT be tolerated at the roadrace championships,So get used to it now or don't bother turning up at Ruapuna in January.

I also put in a counter claim to MNZ. I have since removed it because all I can see coming of it is more people getting dragged through the mud. Using more of our volunteers valuable time and resources.

I dont think anyone can honestly call either of us a soft cock wanker coward Shaun. Well maybe they could call me a wanker lol















I called the person who wrote the complaining letter to MNZ about the actions of Billy the above Sloan!

I was not calling Billy this for taking his roll for our sport and riders lives seriously.

[Shaun]

Aye?

This has been a fuckin let down big time!!!!

I watched some grass grow earlier, but had to come back to this thread for fear of over excitement.



Hydroponics eh

[Drew]

Hydroponics eh
Surprises people to learn that I don't smoke apparently, it turns out I really am this vacant.:scratch:

[scracha]

Surprises people to learn that I don't smoke apparently, it turns out I really am this vacant.:scratch:
Smoking cock still counts Drew.

[jellywrestler]

Well maybe they could call me a wanker lol



It's politically incorrect to call someone a Wanker nowadays Sloan, they're now referred to as 'an owner Operater'

[Drew]

Smoking cock still counts Drew.

You're the authority on it, I'll accept your word.

[Biggles08]

You're the authority on it, I'll accept your word.
I'm insulted you forgot about me!

[Drew]

I'm insulted you forgot about me!

No one could forget you toothie boy, I've still got the scars.

[Kickaha]

I'm insulted you forgot about me!

We've been trying to forget about you ever since we met

[miper]

It's politically incorrect to call someone a Wanker nowadays Sloan, they're now referred to as 'an owner Operater'

Surely you mean "sexually independant"

[Billy]

Surely you mean "sexually independant"

Independent Reggie,Not independant! Thought you would have been able to spell the one thing your good at Bwahahahahahahaha! GOT YA!

[miper]

Independent Reggie,Not independant! Thought you would have been able to spell the one thing your good at Bwahahahahahahaha! GOT YA!

Mate ma spullink idnt good?.......lunsh was gud at skoul but.

Isn't it 'a' before 'e' especially after the second 'd'?

On another subject gona miss the next round too dude. Still in aus.

[Billy]

Mate ma spullink idnt good?.......lunsh was gud at skoul but.

Isn't it 'a' before 'e' especially after the second 'd'?

On another subject gona miss the next round too dude. Still in aus.

WTF,Miss another round,You retired again or what????,Could always get Mark or Clive to fill in for ya,Or even worse Colin LOL

[Clivoris]

WTF,Miss another round,You retired again or what????,Could always get Mark or Clive to fill in for ya,Or even worse Colin LOL

Hell yes. I will take it for blast. You gotta be careful letting me have a test ride. I hang around for ages afterwards. Ask my wife.

[miper]

WTF,Miss another round,You retired again or what????,Could always get Mark or Clive to fill in for ya,Or even worse Colin LOL

What an afront. Retired? A question for ya, how can I be re anything when it's always been the same.....you know just tired:sweatdrop

And on the subject of colin, he still as you know is the only rider in the history of motorcycle racing to "improve" every subsequent lap...OK then improve in this case means get a bigger number, and aside from that there aren't enough dead cows to make leathers for his current shape............

Could be there are more than 1 clive possibilities though......if only he knew

[Billy]

I think we were all warned at the briefing pretty clearly that if any stupid/dangerous maneuvers were done out on the track involving the safety of ourselves or others we would be penalized and fined $$$? Did any of these riders suffer a fine for their actions do you know spyda?

Whilst 'in the moment' we can make decisions while racing that may not be the correct ones to make, slowing on the front straight enough to let x5 riders past is simply stupid and not a snap decision made under duress. This especially considering the tragic loss of Mark (RIP) and the great lengths Skunk went to in the briefing to make certain we all knew the dangers of slow bikes on a track with racers at race pace. I personally think this would deserve a $$$ fine myself...this is the only way some people will learn.

Good post Marcus,Somehow I missed it earlier,

No nobody was penalised for the safety rules broken and neither have any since,Despite there being a number of serious breaches AND despite me issuing a directive to the clubs to start introducing consequences when the rules were breached,This was backed up by the stewards commissioner to the point he suggested I went to the officials training to reinforce it,Apparently its MNZs fault for not teaching riders enough before they get on a superbike!!!!! HELLO MNZ do not run meetings,The clubs do,All other clubs outside of the Vic club have an entry level/junior training scheme to teach the riders the correct ettiquette,I witnessed 2 riders during practice/Qualifying at round 4,Slow to a touring speed and complete the lap with other machines at full pace passing them,Neither had their arm up to indicate they had slowed and neither made any attempt to pull off the track,1 was in the Supersport session and the other was in Superbike,Both were slapped on the back of the hand with a wet bus ticket !!!!! I have done all I can to rectify the situation as roadrace commissioner,The only tool I have left is to stop issuing permits to the offenders,Its up to the competitors now to confront the club and ask the question,How many more deaths will it take before something is done about it.

[FROSTY]

This is true, but at least i looked good doing it (& lasted one more lap than you..... ) :weep: Wasnt a good day for either really :-)
Its getting a bit rough though when you need to put sliders on the backside of ya leathers :wacko:

[Skunk]

Good post Marcus,Somehow I missed it earlier,

No nobody was penalised for the safety rules broken and neither have any since,Despite there being a number of serious breaches AND despite me issuing a directive to the clubs to start introducing consequences when the rules were breached,This was backed up by the stewards commissioner to the point he suggested I went to the officials training to reinforce it,Apparently its MNZs fault for not teaching riders enough before they get on a superbike!!!!! HELLO MNZ do not run meetings,The clubs do,All other clubs outside of the Vic club have an entry level/junior training scheme to teach the riders the correct ettiquette,I witnessed 2 riders during practice/Qualifying at round 4,Slow to a touring speed and complete the lap with other machines at full pace passing them,Neither had their arm up to indicate they had slowed and neither made any attempt to pull off the track,1 was in the Supersport session and the other was in Superbike,Both were slapped on the back of the hand with a wet bus ticket !!!!! I have done all I can to rectify the situation as roadrace commissioner,The only tool I have left is to stop issuing permits to the offenders,Its up to the competitors now to confront the club and ask the question,How many more deaths will it take before something is done about it.As you said Billy - MNZ do not run the meetings clubs do. You are MNZ. Myself and the Steward of the day deal with the on the day events.
I know of only one rider that rode slowly for part of one lap in the Qualifying session. This was NOT dealt with with a 'wet bus ticket'. It was taken VERY seriously with the initial determination of sending the rider home. As is always the case we investigate the reasons, attitude, and background. You were not part of that. Don't assume and portray it like we're doing nothing.
Round 3 we had two incidents and had the bikes not broken the riders would not have been allowed to continue. Natural Justice.
There are punishments dealt out. Lets be very clear about that. We don't make a song and dance about it.

[Billy]

As you said Billy - MNZ do not run the meetings clubs do. You are MNZ. Myself and the Steward of the day deal with the on the day events.
I know of only one rider that rode slowly for part of one lap in the Qualifying session. This was NOT dealt with with a 'wet bus ticket'. It was taken VERY seriously with the initial determination of sending the rider home. As is always the case we investigate the reasons, attitude, and background. You were not part of that. Don't assume and portray it like we're doing nothing.
Round 3 we had two incidents and had the bikes not broken the riders would not have been allowed to continue. Natural Justice.
There are punishments dealt out. Lets be very clear about that. We don't make a song and dance about it.

Two riders Skunk,Dion Marriot in Supersport no.71,David Cooper in Superbike,David Cooper slowed after he exited turn one and another rider had to take evasive action entering turn 3,He then proceeded to circulate at a touring pace AND without any indication IE: A raised hand,He knew it was dangerous and so did his pitcrew and agreed he should be sent home,Both riders were spoken to and NO action taken or consequences enforced,AGAIN,Talk is cheap,Lives are not.

[suzuki21]

He knew it was dangerous and so did his pitcrew and agreed he should be sent home,Both riders were spoken to and NO action taken or consequences enforced,AGAIN,Talk is cheap,Lives are not.

Dave new he done wrong, and he will now look at flags more carefully. He certainly learned from being bent over up stairs and would have accepted being sent home, others would have thrown their toys in.

[Drew]

Andrew and Billy. The rest of us get to sling shit around in this forum, for nothing more than imortalising ourselves with written word (Christ knows nothing I say could be for anything else). You guys have unfortunately put yourselves in positions however, where doing that brings disrepute to the office or station you hold. Is this wise?

In other words, do it in private ya pair o' cunts!

[Shaun]

Andrew and Billy. The rest of us get to sling shit around in this forum, for nothing more than imortalising ourselves with written word (Christ knows nothing I say could be for anything else). You guys have unfortunately put yourselves in positions however, where doing that brings disrepute to the office or station you hold. Is this wise?

In other words, do it in private ya pair o' cunts!


Well typed! sorry guys but you are as bad as I am on here, ( Thankyou for your work though) and this is not the place for you to administer the sport remember

[Skunk]

Well typed! sorry guys but you are as bad as I am on here, ( Thankyou for your work though) and this is not the place for you to administer the sport rememberAnybody can stir shit on here... Me included. I just wanted to point out that Billy wasn't correct in the impression he gave. No story is Black and White.

Anyway - shouldn't this thread have turned to beer by now?

[suzuki21]

Anybody can stir shit on here... Me included. I just wanted to point out that Billy wasn't correct in the impression he gave. No story is Black and White.

Anyway - shouldn't this thread have turned to beer by now?

I like others am sick and tired of people getting hurt/killed in the "lower grades". I am a member of one of the teams who done something wrong. It was the riders honest mistake and he was completely bummed, he was friends with those who have died recently and is intelligent enough to know the consequences of what may have happened. I am not saying he should have been made an example off to get the message across, but sometimes things need to be black and white. Zero tolerance may be required and I back Billy 100% as one day his anal strictness may save mine and other people friends and family members lifes.

[slowpoke]

I like others am sick and tired of people getting hurt/killed in the "lower grades". I am a member of one of the teams who done something wrong. It was the riders honest mistake and he was completely bummed, he was friends with those who have died recently and is intelligent enough to know the consequences of what may have happened. I am not saying he should have been made an example off to get the message across, but sometimes things need to be black and white. Zero tolerance may be required and I back Billy 100% as one day his anal strictness may save mine and other people friends and family members lifes.

Yes and no. It's a minefield deciding what constitutes a "sending off offence", and once you start down that track it opens a whole can of whoop ass: you better be damn sure you send Robbie or Andrew home if the sit up during qualifying for the Nat's or it's gonna be on for young old.

Forget the big stick: all I'd like to see is maximum visibility. Sending one person home punishes one person, but highlighting the issue to everyone would accomplish more. So why not STOP the meeting, call another rider's briefing, explain what's happened and how/why it's unacceptable (youngsters will have little idea, and we've all seen the MotoGP boys sit up and cruise in qualifying). Get EVERYONE thinking about it at the right time and place. If the meeting runs short on time, tough, it's "that guys fault"....and nobody will want to be "that guy". Email all racers after the round (not everyone goes to every round) and highlight any safety issues. If clubs/MNZ can send out membership reminders and newsletters it's not a stretch to send out a safety alert.

[Drew]

Anybody can stir shit on here... Me included. I just wanted to point out that Billy wasn't correct in the impression he gave. No story is Black and White.

Anyway - shouldn't this thread have turned to beer by now?

Fair enough to want to set things straight, I'm all for it. But the facts are all that's needed I would have thought. The banter looks bad, and makes people question weather they can confidently bring an issue to you.

[Billy]

Fair enough to want to set things straight, I'm all for it. But the facts are all that's needed I would have thought. The banter looks bad, and makes people question weather they can confidently bring an issue to you.

Yip and the fact is,I was in the control tower during the 2 qualifying sessions I mentioned and I know what I saw and heard,Plus I have the stewards report and it backs up exactly what I stated!!!

You can candy coat it anyway you want,But the fact remains,If the rules surrounding safety aren't tightened up and some consequences enforced,Then its only a matter of time before theres another death,Stopping a meeting and having a pep talk is just typical of todays PC society,The riders are informed at riders briefing and in a written brief as well,FFS what next stop them every lap and have a wee talk too them, GET REAL.

[RobGassit]

Group hug everybody. Not feelin the love.....

[slowpoke]

You can candy coat it anyway you want,But the fact remains,If the rules surrounding safety aren't tightened up and some consequences enforced,Then its only a matter of time before theres another death,Stopping a meeting and having a pep talk is just typical of todays PC society,The riders are informed at riders briefing and in a written brief as well,FFS what next stop them every lap and have a wee talk too them, GET REAL.

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.

[Shaun]

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.



well written dude, thanks for taking the time to realy highlight the NEED to do it the way you described to GAURANTEE the message gets through to the offending riders and teams.

I am confident Billy will see the logic in your reply, we all know he is doing his best, but even CEO's of major companies need advisers to help guide them

[slowpoke]

, we all know he is doing his best,

No argument here mate, there's been a step change since he took up the position and it's good to see.

Sorry if I'm getting on your nerves Billy, believe it or not I'm just tryin' to make your job easier: best result for the least effort. Get the riders checking/helping each other out to lift their game and the battle is half way won.

[suzuki21]

Why are extra rules and enforcement etc needed? Why dont people just use their brains (Craig Shirrifs excluded as he hasnt got one).

[MSTRS]

Why are extra rules and enforcement etc needed? Why dont people just use their brains (Craig Shirrifs excluded as he hasnt got one).

Refer Choppa...

I don't know about extra rules, but certainly stricter enforcement of all rules is needed. And needed precisely because people DON'T use their brains. Of course, that applies to EVERYONE as well...not just riders.

[Biggles08]

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.


I get your point Slowpoke and the intent has merit but the way you have suggested to enforce the 'share the knowledge' idea I disagree with.

We are all at the riders briefing (well should be), we all hear Skunk warn us about not being lite on safety issues (especially going slow on track), we all should know what those are (or we shouldn't be on the track) and if we have a brain fade putting ourselves or others at risk we all know the potential consequences. that's it...simple.

When it comes down to uniformity with enforcement of any safety rules between clubs... who cares???? If VMCC run their events with a more strict outlook/consequence on safety than AMCC for eg, we all need to adjust our behavior according to each club we are riding with...much like 'playing to the ref' I suppose. I can tell you that if this were the case ALL other clubs would eventually lift their game (as would racers/teams) as it would highlight any unsafe practices they were ignoring if another club was enforcing them (BTW I don't believe any club takes safety lightly and this was merely a hypothetical example).

My main point is...when it comes down to it, in hindsight we all know what is safe and unsafe and by stopping a meeting to highlight these points to teams/racers we will essentially be achieving nothing apart from making a good day run like arse. The main problem I see is training a racer to not make dumb decisions whilst on track while NOT under duress. We can all make wrong decisions whilst on the track in the moment and the only thing that will stop this happening is experience, and learning from these. If on the other hand you make dumb decisions with no apparent reason for it, these need to be swiftly dealt to by the authority's in order to protect that rider and those who are racing with him/her. This will soon train that racer into good practices whilst on the track or eventually remove them from participating in racing. There is no point making an example of them on the day because 99% of the people racing that day already know whatever it is they did is not the smart thing to do.

I have had a couple of cases where other racers have just about killed me on track, one being at manfield a couple of seasons ago...this rider was going slow (out of gas) exiting dunlop and turned his head the wrong way back to see behind him, swerved away (from outside of track to inside) to avoid x2 bikes behind me on the outside and missed me by mm's at about 150kph! Dumb...yes...in the moment panicking about getting out of the way...sure thing! I can tell you he will NEVER do that again with the abuse he got not only from me but others who saw the near accident. This was a dumb, in the moment mistake that he will learn from...regardless of any penalty imposed on him.

Another example was at Pukekohe racing...I was about to pass another racer on the inside at the kink at the back straight fully pinned out and this guy looked back at me and saw me coming fast, so decided to swerve into my line giving me no exit.. I missed the inside grass edge at $250kph'sh by mm's! He wasn't done though, he then swerved back the other way to cover the other side of the track after again looking behind to see me coming that side (although fairly far back as I was still shitting myself)...dumb...you bet...sent home for the day with a fine for doing dumb unsafe maneuvers...nope... but he should have been to think about why, and to train his brain out of this bad racing practice.

The clear difference in these two cases I believe is that the first one was done in panic and was the wrong decision, the second was done in malice and was a calculated move which also was the wrong decision. One guy would learn from being penalized whilst the other guy had already learned from the experience.

I think maybe a email to the riders in between meetings explaining any issues that happened on the day that needed addressing might have merit but this involves more work for the club and essentially will be covered off in the next meetings riders briefing anyway so may not be required.

[Billy]

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.

Yip,

I see your point but as Suzuki 21 has pointed out,Why would we bother introducing new rules and regs when the competitors are not following the ones we have now???The rulebook clearly states if you have an issue remove your machine from the track as soon as it is safe to do so,NOT continue on to the pits,I agree commonsense must be used,But when the riders are consistently told over and over again the same message and yet they continue to ignore it,Something has to be done,Also when your in charge of running the sport and youve issued a directive to tighten up on the safety rules,Following yet another needless death and your in the control tower and watch an incident unfold,To which the officials reaction is "Thats it we're sending him home",Only to see the same competitor being brought back in on the recovery vehicle after the next race,Is a little disressing,

As pointed out earlier,MCI and AMCC dont have these issues as they both do entry level training and the riders are taught about safety at the beginning,Not after a death.If you continue to do what you do,You'll always have what youve got,Sound familiar???Put simply,Since Manfeild opened in 1973,4 solo motorcyclists have been killed there while competing,3 were at Vic club meetings and all on the front straight,Only one of those was due to the rider losing control(Chris Dawes 1995) and do we need to count up the other incidents where riders have tailended other riders when theyve slowed in the middle of a straight???See my point yet???

[Drew]

Jeeze you're a cunt Billy.

I'd like to see some entry numbers for when those other clubs have run events AT MANFIELD before I start pointing fingers at clubs/death figures. You are making very fuckin stupid statements by comparing apples and oranges.

[jellywrestler]

Another example was at Pukekohe racing.. I missed the inside grass edge at $250kph'sh by mm's! He wasn't done though, he then swerved back the other way to cover the other side of the track after again looking behind to see me coming that side (although fairly far back as I was still shitting myself)...dumb...you bet...sent home for the day with a fine for doing dumb unsafe maneuvers...nope... but he should have been to think about why, and to train his brain out of this bad racing practice.

From memory Stu Avant caught a gust of wind and was blown off the back straight and clipped a marker post, hurt his arm a fair bit too.
With the Maoris this week now putting a claim in for the wind, would MNZ fine the tribe who owns the wind in that part of the country?

[Billy]

Jeeze you're a cunt Billy.

I'd like to see some entry numbers for when those other clubs have run events AT MANFIELD before I start pointing fingers at clubs/death figures. You are making very fuckin stupid statements by comparing apples and oranges.

Pretty sure you'd find the feilds at Tims Suzuki series were every bit as big and in some cases bigger than the Vic club,In fact it was Tim that introduced the 6 round winter series,Up until his series both the Vic club and Manawatu Orion only ran 3 round series,But as a reference,Late 80s National rounds run at Manfeild by Manfeild promotions under the watchful eye of Errol Conaghan,250 production feilds were upwards of 45 bikes on the grid,So was F3,

Cunt yes,Stupid NO!

[Drew]

Pretty sure you'd find the feilds at Tims Suzuki series were every bit as big and in some cases bigger than the Vic club,In fact it was Tim that introduced the 6 round winter series,Up until his series both the Vic club and Manawatu Orion only ran 3 round series,But as a reference,Late 80s National rounds run at Manfeild by Manfeild promotions under the watchful eye of Errol Conaghan,250 production feilds were upwards of 45 bikes on the grid,So was F3,

Cunt yes,Stupid NO!
Ok then, let's look at it differently. Name a death that was in any way, the fault of the club? Or significantly conteibuted to by the organisers. The reverse track red flag fuck up, was due to a completely stupid fuckin rule, saying return to the start finish line and stop when there is a red flag. The rest were all rider balls ups.

So don't start pointing fingers at Vic club for the shortcomings of other people is what I'm saying.

[Billy]

Ok then, let's look at it differently. Name a death that was in any way, the fault of the club? Or significantly conteibuted to by the organisers. The reverse track red flag fuck up, was due to a completely stupid fuckin rule, saying return to the start finish line and stop when there is a red flag. The rest were all rider balls ups.

So don't start pointing fingers at Vic club for the shortcomings of other people is what I'm saying.

There was quite a lot more involved with the incident on the reverse track,IE the clerk of the course was left too runhis first meeting with little experience and no back up,The radios didnt function as they should have and therefore there was no flag shown anywhere around the circuit other than the start/finish straight,The flaggie on the start/finish line remained stationary on the line instead of walking through the grid as it formed and was therefore unseen by the riders exiting the last corner,Oh and the track was no longer licensed to run in the reverse direction due to safety concerns,But your right of course,It would be unfair to blame the club directly for recent events,However,What if anything have they done to make things safer since round 1 this year??????

Furthermore,What rider training do the Vic club do in the area of safety and ettiquette,AMCC have their A.R.T days,MCI training is legendary,South Canterbury hold have a go days at Levels with extensive training,As do Otago motorcycle club.

[jellywrestler]

What if anything have they done to make things safer since round 1 this year??????

Furthermore,What rider training do the Vic club do in the area of safety and ettiquette

Billy, I certainly think they have done a bit in highlighting a few areas that are an issue, I for one (i'm not a Vic Club Member) wrote to Skunk with a track behaviour issue that I could see was 'an accident waiting to happen' and they brought this up at riders briefing. I've also over the last couple of meetings watched them head off to have a chat to someone who has erred, whereas in times gone by they didn't usually do so at all.
Riders Breifing has certainly included other don'ts more so than they used to, bear in mind here to much ranting at riders briefing pretty soon means a decline in attention spans..
Additional marshalls have been added out on the track since too.

Furthermore...
They have a couple of pages in the programme to be read by competitors, who else does that.

I certainly think they have stepped up a bit, there's still work to be done but that's always the case when safety is in the gunsights.

Graeme Spyda Staples Arseistant Commentator Vic Winter Series

[Billy]

Billy, I certainly think they have done a bit in highlighting a few areas that are an issue, I for one (i'm not a Vic Club Member) wrote to Skunk with a track behaviour issue that I could see was 'an accident waiting to happen' and they brought this up at riders briefing. I've also over the last couple of meetings watched them head off to have a chat to someone who has erred, whereas in times gone by they didn't usually do so at all.
Riders Breifing has certainly included other don'ts more so than they used to, bear in mind here to much ranting at riders briefing pretty soon means a decline in attention spans..
Additional marshalls have been added out on the track since too.

Furthermore...
They have a couple of pages in the programme to be read by competitors, who else does that.

I certainly think they have stepped up a bit, there's still work to be done but that's always the case when safety is in the gunsights.

Graeme Spyda Staples Arseistant Commentator Vic Winter Series

Yip,

Talk.talk,talk and whats that achieved???How do you,As one who's been around for a wee while,How do you think Errol would have handled it and do you think it would be a continual issue under his management?

Enough said on the subject,I have made my opinion known both offline and on and have left it in the hands of the officials standing committee,Now Ive got a Nationals series to organise .....so bye!!!

[Drew]

I like you Billy, you're a good cunt for the most part, but I really think that you're taking the new job too personally. I know it takes time out of your already stupid schedule, for little or no personal gain, but ya gotta ease up a bit I reckon. If I was in Andrew's spot right now, I'd be refusing to run another event based on what you've said, and what it implies.

Hopefully he is thicker skinned, and longer tempered than I am, 'cause I'd likely do everything I could to get the rest of the committee to pack it in too. And then everybody loses.

On the reverse track thing, a mate of mine who was one of the riders who plowed straight into the stopped traffic (Mitch something or other), I thought said that the flag was out at what was the final turn for the configuration, but because of where the flag point is no one really saw it. I really have to pay more attention and work on retaining the info that gets given to me.

[suzuki21]

Yip,

Talk.talk,talk and whats that achieved???How do you,As one who's been around for a wee while,How do you think Errol would have handled it and do you think it would be a continual issue under his management?

Enough said on the subject,I have made my opinion known both offline and on and have left it in the hands of the officials standing committee,Now Ive got a Nationals series to organise .....so bye!!!

I think riders from the central districts when racing need to "never go full retard" (Tropic Thunder 2008)

[slowpoke]

I get your point Slowpoke and the intent has merit but the way you have suggested to enforce the 'share the knowledge' idea I disagree with.

We are all at the riders briefing (well should be), we all hear Skunk warn us about not being lite on safety issues (especially going slow on track), we all should know what those are (or we shouldn't be on the track) and if we have a brain fade putting ourselves or others at risk we all know the potential consequences. that's it...simple.

When it comes down to uniformity with enforcement of any safety rules between clubs... who cares???? If VMCC run their events with a more strict outlook/consequence on safety than AMCC for eg, we all need to adjust our behavior according to each club we are riding with...much like 'playing to the ref' I suppose. I can tell you that if this were the case ALL other clubs would eventually lift their game (as would racers/teams) as it would highlight any unsafe practices they were ignoring if another club was enforcing them (BTW I don't believe any club takes safety lightly and this was merely a hypothetical example).

My main point is...when it comes down to it, in hindsight we all know what is safe and unsafe and by stopping a meeting to highlight these points to teams/racers we will essentially be achieving nothing apart from making a good day run like arse. The main problem I see is training a racer to not make dumb decisions whilst on track while NOT under duress. We can all make wrong decisions whilst on the track in the moment and the only thing that will stop this happening is experience, and learning from these. If on the other hand you make dumb decisions with no apparent reason for it, these need to be swiftly dealt to by the authority's in order to protect that rider and those who are racing with him/her. This will soon train that racer into good practices whilst on the track or eventually remove them from participating in racing. There is no point making an example of them on the day because 99% of the people racing that day already know whatever it is they did is not the smart thing to do.

Edited

I think maybe a email to the riders in between meetings explaining any issues that happened on the day that needed addressing might have merit but this involves more work for the club and essentially will be covered off in the next meetings riders briefing anyway so may not be required.


Yip,

I see your point but as Suzuki 21 has pointed out,Why would we bother introducing new rules and regs when the competitors are not following the ones we have now???The rulebook clearly states if you have an issue remove your machine from the track as soon as it is safe to do so,NOT continue on to the pits,I agree commonsense must be used,But when the riders are consistently told over and over again the same message and yet they continue to ignore it,Something has to be done,Also when your in charge of running the sport and youve issued a directive to tighten up on the safety rules,Following yet another needless death and your in the control tower and watch an incident unfold,To which the officials reaction is "Thats it we're sending him home",Only to see the same competitor being brought back in on the recovery vehicle after the next race,Is a little disressing,

As pointed out earlier,MCI and AMCC dont have these issues as they both do entry level training and the riders are taught about safety at the beginning,Not after a death.If you continue to do what you do,You'll always have what youve got,Sound familiar???Put simply,Since Manfeild opened in 1973,4 solo motorcyclists have been killed there while competing,3 were at Vic club meetings and all on the front straight,Only one of those was due to the rider losing control(Chris Dawes 1995) and do we need to count up the other incidents where riders have tailended other riders when theyve slowed in the middle of a straight???See my point yet???

Yep, agree pretty much with what you guys are saying. My concern isn't so much with any single rule though, it's about all the safety stuff. Riders briefings can't cover everything or the briefing would be 2 hours long. Which was what I was sort of meaning to get at with stopping the meeting to highlight any glaring or ongoing issue. After being there at the pit wall looking right at the last incident/impact, I never ever want to see something like that again, hence I couldn't give a shit if the meeting runs late if it stops another poor woman running down pit lane towards her broken husband. (my apologies if that sounds melodramatic but the look on that poor lady's face was heartbreaking)

I'm also thinking about the problem that most of us aren't full time racers and can't make every single round. I'm lucky if I make 1 in 3. It would be great to capture any learnings (as per the slip road red flag issue) and communicate them to those of us who weren't there. With the slip road thing there must still be racers involved in that race who don't know what the story was, and the significance of the red flag on the starting grid. I've read the rules but don't pretend to remember every intricacy so it's been helpful seeing it discussed on KB. We have email, it's not hard to set up a group address (it's already there for the Oily Rag/membership reminder, you could even include info in the Oily Rag), write one email and everyone is much the wiser. Just an idea anyway, I'm happy to do the work if someone from VMCC wants to PM me to discuss....or not, lol.

As you mention Billy, training needs to take greater importance. Bad news mate....you have PM, haha.

[Billy]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;11303926

As you mention Billy, training needs to take greater importance. Bad news mate....you have PM, haha.[/QUOTE]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.

[Drew]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.


Do the instructors have to be accredited trainers? Or will it be the same 'old boys club' as usual?

I like the idea, but if it's done half arsed it's a waste of time.

Four different orginisations you've mentioned there, is there any standardised curriculum they have to adhere?

Do current superbike riders need to do the course to carry on racing?

Yeah I'm a negative cunt, I do it on purpose!

[scrivy]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.


Hi Billy,

I've read through all this.... phew!!
Safety should be paramount in all racers minds, I totally agree!

The rules at present allow a bucket racer to upgrade to a Superbike or F1 Sidecar and race at the Nats as long as they have 3 stamps in their logbooks. Absolutely crazy! But it’s still allowed.
But there are also other issues with the licensing - eg. do we ever check for colour blindness? Can people tell a green flag from a yellow or red flag? (Believe me, I know of a past racer that can't).

The Pro-rider or similar training can’t be bad thing, but please make sure it's not the only silver bullet we all want, and think will be the answer to this thread on safety issues.

I know of some very experienced riders that have caused some monumental crashes in the past. Steve Bron at Wanganui, and Pete the Pirate at Wanganui also. Both guys have raced for years - but caused crashes that quite simply could have killed more people. (PLEASE do not take this as a 'point the finger' at those two guys only), they are just some examples of experienced guys that fucked up in the heat of racing. Everybody fucks up at some point. Myself included I admit.
My issue with racers and the current system, is that if you ask a dozen of them a question on circuit procedures or safety, you’ll more than likely get 5 or 6 different replies back. Some of them common sense replies, some just absurd! (As you’ve read in this thread – again no finger pointing).
In qualifying at one race meeting a few years back, I was almost taken out by 3 competitors that did some crazy shit things, and they were oblivious to the perils of their actions! As a result, I did no more qualifying so I didn’t have to be out there with them.

I do not know what the Pro-rider teaches people, but competitors need to be made aware that there will always be repercussions/ramifications to their brain-fade actions on the circuit.
-How many competitors hold their line under brakes at 200+ kms into a corner – when there is a competitor going 40 kms faster about to pass on the inside?
-When slipstreaming, do you rely solely on the person in front to be your eyes? Pukekohe incident comes to mind.
-When you’ve broken down, do you put your hand up to let fellow competitors (and flaggies) know that you’re slowing?
-Do you stay off the racing line if you’re leaking oil?
-Do you have to stop at designated stop points under a red flag?
-Do you pull out of pit lane infront of other riders going at race speed?
-Do you go the wrong way down the track?
-Do you stop right on the edge of the track if you’ve broken down?

Some of the above stuff is racing 101 – BUT, how many people simply forget to do it?? Or realistically, know what to do – we all assume our fellow racers know the simple stuff. But newbies? WE (and I mean all ‘experienced’ racers) need to pass on our knowledge to avoid these stupid accidents taking place and taking lives.

Don’t just think that stupidity is rife in NZ either. I was leading a race at Eastern Creek back in April, and came around turn 2 – hit oil, and slid 30 feet sideways (was a bit fun at the time I admit), but I immediately raised my left arm (as did my passenger), to warn others behind us. I frantically waved and pointed to the oil on the track in front of us – and you could see heaps of it way infront – but about 10 rigs (with experienced guys aboard) looked at me, and decided they should race off at full steam instead………. We were expecting death around the next few corners!! Seriously! If a race leader puts his hand up frantically waving, should other racers take a split second to wonder why? They do if it's raining......
There are so many risks out there when racing, and we all need to make sure that everybody out there is up to speed. (Pun intended)

I know you will take this seriously Billy – and about time someone does.

Scrivy

[Kiwi Graham]

Safety is an ever evolving area and so it should be, sometimes it evolves because of mistakes made by others.

AMCC run the ART programme that is primarily aimed at road riders wanting to up skill but we also cater for the novice racer who wants to enter the club series.
We have a couple of ‘accredited’ instructors but in the main they are simply experienced riders/racers with many other credentials attached to them be that police, armed forces or civilian with a passion and ability to pass on their knowledge. All are either invited to join or apply and are then either thanked for their interest or selected by some of the wise but not necessarily by the ‘old boys’ Drew.

We do run to a curriculum but are able to work 1:1 on specifics. For those that show a desire to go on and race they work with other experienced racers both past and present, the list of ‘Star Instructors’ that have helped in this area is huge (many of you reading this for instance).

The progression is gaining the MNZ race license and attending the first meeting.
This season we have tightened up the Clubmans class big time, ensuring those that want it get a mentor, lap times are closely monitored, Hi-Viz is to be worn by a novice for the first ten races even if during that time they progress out of Clubmans. Pre race sighting laps alongside an experienced racer for first timers. The list goes on.

For a long time the she’ll be right approach has been going on. Billy has stood up to take on the task and is dotting all the i’s and crossing all the t’s and to be honest it’s a breath of fresh air. Some of us have been busy playing ‘catch up’ and improving what we do, all the clubs are aiming for the same thing and are communicating well with each other. The end result I believe will be slicker operations from everybody and an increase is safety across the board.

With MNZ training and accrediting officials and Flaggies, graduated licensing and Clubs training and mentoring novice riders is a huge step in the right direction.
The thought that you or I could be lined up on the grid for a superbike race with a novice rider with a fat cheque book (all the gear and no idea) is a scary prospect as scrivy has alluded to.

Yep this new phase in our sport its going to be ‘uncomfortable’ at times but the light at the end of the tunnel will be even more appreciated when it arrives.

[SWERVE]

Whoa........... whats happening..... people on KB are talking sense at last.:wacko:
As previosly said......... might make it a liitle uncomfortable in the beginning but soooooo beneficial in the long run.:yes:

[FROSTY]

Another example was at Pukekohe racing...I was about to pass another racer on the inside at the kink at the back straight fully pinned out and this guy looked back at me and saw me coming fast, so decided to swerve into my line giving me no exit.. I missed the inside grass edge at $250kph'sh by mm's! He wasn't done though, he then swerved back the other way to cover the other side of the track after again looking behind to see me coming that side (although fairly far back as I was still shitting myself)...dumb...you bet...sent home for the day with a fine for doing dumb unsafe maneuvers...nope... but he should have been to think about why, and to train his brain out of this bad racing practice.

I can tell you for fact had the club officials actually SEEN this happen the person concerned would have been dealt with.
Its difficult to punish someone when its one persons word against another.

[FROSTY]

Not bad news at all mate,It means I'm not the only one that see's a problem here.

I have spent a bit of time on the phone this morning with Karel Pavich from Pro rider and we are going too be working hard on a training scheme for the lower North Island and a graded licence system,Whereby,You cannot enter or race a 600 or Superbike until youve attended either a pro rider advanced training course or one of the other MNZ accredited courses like AMCC's ART days or MCI,South Canterbury,Otago training days,I will be talking at some stage in the near future with the people that run these schemes and formulating a plan to take too the board.
You mean to say that what Ive been promoting and recomending for the past 7 years is going to happen? :innocent:
Just a thought do you realise that the way the moto TT trackdays are run means it would not take a lot of tweaking to have one "group" be designated "race training"
The flaggies would need tweaking up a bit to ensure they were using the correct flag and it could only ever be called a rider "training" day for odvious reasons.
I would even go so far as to say. Just like getting a pass in your BSH test before you get a road learners licence so you need to have passed your basic trackcraft test to get an MNZ licence.

[scrivy]

I can tell you for fact had the club officials actually SEEN this happen the person concerned would have been dealt with.
Its difficult to punish someone when its one persons word against another.

That's why it's imperitive that we have great flaggies, and a proper system of disciplne.

BUT, saying that - remember the Stroud/Rees incident at Manfeild - using an inexperienced flaggie as the main reason for Strouds relegation...... We all need to be brought up to speed.

[FROSTY]

That's why it's imperitive that we have great flaggies, and a proper system of disciplne.
BUT, saying that - remember the Stroud/Rees incident at Manfeild - using an inexperienced flaggie as the main reason for Strouds relegation...... We all need to be brought up to speed.
ACTUALLY-- um not wanting to scratch a VERY old sore. Some of us have been argueing for many years that the "kink" is a corner and therefore needs to be effectively marshalled for EVERY meeting.
I have a number of reasons for thinking this
If the kink has no marshals then the next marshal point back from the hairpin is castrol -1.km back
That means that the first time a racer knows about an incident at the hairpin is waved flags at the hairpin.
No marshall no matter how good their eyes are can see back to an infringement at the kink -or from castrol for that matter.
I must say I have never personally seen anyone actually CRASH at the kink but Ive seen a few "comings together"

[MSTRS]

ACTUALLY-- um not wanting to scratch a VERY old sore. Some of us have been argueing for many years that the "kink" is a corner and therefore needs to be effectively marshalled for EVERY meeting.
I have a number of reasons for thinking this
If the kink has no marshals then the next marshal point back from the hairpin is castrol -1.km back
That means that the first time a racer knows about an incident at the hairpin is waved flags at the hairpin.
No marshall no matter how good their eyes are can see back to an infringement at the kink -or from castrol for that matter.
I must say I have never personally seen anyone actually CRASH at the kink but Ive seen a few "comings together"

Is the kink the right-hander as one approaches the hairpin? Because if so - where the F would any marshal/point be? There is nowhere I can think of. Besides, FP3 is very close and covers the area quite well.

[FROSTY]

Is the kink the right-hander as one approaches the hairpin? Because if so - where the F would any marshal/point be? There is nowhere I can think of. Besides, FP3 is very close and covers the area quite well.
The "kink" is at about the 5/8 mark on the back "straight"
sorry mon I disagree 100% .
Have a look at
http://www.wises.co.nz/l/pukekohe+park+raceway/#c/-37.215839/174.921087/17/
Have a look at the back "straight"
Can you see where the flag point should be and why?

I don't know if you will remember that the pukie back straight is double the lenth of either one at the minefeild.
The marshal point has been used for the nationals very effectively

[MSTRS]

Oooops - I thought we were talking about Manfeild...

But if you mean there is no marshal point between the hairpin at the 'top' of the link, and the hairpin at the bottom, then I believe you are right and there should be one at the end of the wall right near the Station Rd/Yates Rd corner.

Incidently, I have never been to Puke...I base the above on a look at the google image overhead

[suzuki21]

What about people that try and block people on corner entries ON PURPOSE that qualified 4sec a lap faster. As well as being wankey its dangerous.

[scracha]

What about people that try and block people on corner entries ON PURPOSE that qualified 4sec a lap faster. As well as being wankey its dangerous.

Not sure what you mean? I thought that was called racing?

[suzuki21]

Not sure what you mean? I thought that was called racing?

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

[scrivy]

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

You mean a fast rider ........

No, that's the sort of shit that should be sending people home. That shit kills.

[Billy]

Do the instructors have to be accredited trainers? Or will it be the same 'old boys club' as usual?

I like the idea, but if it's done half arsed it's a waste of time.

Four different orginisations you've mentioned there, is there any standardised curriculum they have to adhere?

Do current superbike riders need to do the course to carry on racing?

Yeah I'm a negative cunt, I do it on purpose!

I would think the instructors would have too be screened by MNZ first,But that said as Ive already stated some of the other clubs already have a good process in place and are looking at improving what they already have.

Definitely will not be an old boys club system,The instructors would have too be cleared by MNZ as stated above,Not the clubs and yes there would have too be a standardised system,

Most current superbike/600 riders would be alright too carry on,But those that do the dumb stuff mentioned elsewhere consistently,May be required to take on a mentor for a specified time frame.

[Billy]

Hi Billy,

I've read through all this.... phew!!
Safety should be paramount in all racers minds, I totally agree!

The rules at present allow a bucket racer to upgrade to a Superbike or F1 Sidecar and race at the Nats as long as they have 3 stamps in their logbooks. Absolutely crazy! But it’s still allowed.
But there are also other issues with the licensing - eg. do we ever check for colour blindness? Can people tell a green flag from a yellow or red flag? (Believe me, I know of a past racer that can't).

The Pro-rider or similar training can’t be bad thing, but please make sure it's not the only silver bullet we all want, and think will be the answer to this thread on safety issues.

I know of some very experienced riders that have caused some monumental crashes in the past. Steve Bron at Wanganui, and Pete the Pirate at Wanganui also. Both guys have raced for years - but caused crashes that quite simply could have killed more people. (PLEASE do not take this as a 'point the finger' at those two guys only), they are just some examples of experienced guys that fucked up in the heat of racing. Everybody fucks up at some point. Myself included I admit.
My issue with racers and the current system, is that if you ask a dozen of them a question on circuit procedures or safety, you’ll more than likely get 5 or 6 different replies back. Some of them common sense replies, some just absurd! (As you’ve read in this thread – again no finger pointing).
In qualifying at one race meeting a few years back, I was almost taken out by 3 competitors that did some crazy shit things, and they were oblivious to the perils of their actions! As a result, I did no more qualifying so I didn’t have to be out there with them.

I do not know what the Pro-rider teaches people, but competitors need to be made aware that there will always be repercussions/ramifications to their brain-fade actions on the circuit.
-How many competitors hold their line under brakes at 200+ kms into a corner – when there is a competitor going 40 kms faster about to pass on the inside?
-When slipstreaming, do you rely solely on the person in front to be your eyes? Pukekohe incident comes to mind.
-When you’ve broken down, do you put your hand up to let fellow competitors (and flaggies) know that you’re slowing?
-Do you stay off the racing line if you’re leaking oil?
-Do you have to stop at designated stop points under a red flag?
-Do you pull out of pit lane infront of other riders going at race speed?
-Do you go the wrong way down the track?
-Do you stop right on the edge of the track if you’ve broken down?

Some of the above stuff is racing 101 – BUT, how many people simply forget to do it?? Or realistically, know what to do – we all assume our fellow racers know the simple stuff. But newbies? WE (and I mean all ‘experienced’ racers) need to pass on our knowledge to avoid these stupid accidents taking place and taking lives.

Don’t just think that stupidity is rife in NZ either. I was leading a race at Eastern Creek back in April, and came around turn 2 – hit oil, and slid 30 feet sideways (was a bit fun at the time I admit), but I immediately raised my left arm (as did my passenger), to warn others behind us. I frantically waved and pointed to the oil on the track in front of us – and you could see heaps of it way infront – but about 10 rigs (with experienced guys aboard) looked at me, and decided they should race off at full steam instead………. We were expecting death around the next few corners!! Seriously! If a race leader puts his hand up frantically waving, should other racers take a split second to wonder why? They do if it's raining......
There are so many risks out there when racing, and we all need to make sure that everybody out there is up to speed. (Pun intended)

I know you will take this seriously Billy – and about time someone does.

Scrivy

Yip,

Some very good ideas there,Especially the colour blindness test for licensing,A good chunk of that is more about licensing and is not part of my brief,But I will pass it onto Vicky and discuss it further,My personal thoughts are that maybe the time has come where roadracing has its own specific safety officer rather than the current system whereby there is a safety commissioner that covers all disciplines,

Another idea I came up with and would like too see implemented is that all entry forms for roadracing have a list of,Say 5 questions from relevant chapters of the rulebook that have to be answered before an entry can be accepted,Cause lets face it,Alot of the issues we cover here are mentioned in the rules,But because nobody bothers too read it, They don't know,I think another issue I noticed at the last Vic club meeting was as has been mentioned earlier,The number of people in and out of the control tower,If a competitor is spoken to by an official and is not happy with the punishment or has any other issue,Their only way of communication is through the riders rep,NOT in the control tower/room arguing with the folks trying to run the meeting,It is my intention for the National series to have 3 riders reps,1 series rep who will be a non rider,1 chosen by the competitors at riders briefing at each round and 1 from the sidecar fratenity so the competitors can liase with them in a reasonable time frame and orderly manner without confrontation taking place between riders and officials.

So as you can all see there's plenty of work to do yet,But the area of safety in particular needs to be dealt with asap

[scrivy]

I would think the instructors would have too be screened by MNZ first,But that said as Ive already stated some of the other clubs already have a good process in place and are looking at improving what they already have.

Definitely will not be an old boys club system,The instructors would have too be cleared by MNZ as stated above,Not the clubs and yes there would have too be a standardised system,

Most current superbike/600 riders would be alright too carry on,But those that do the dumb stuff mentioned elsewhere consistently,May be required to take on a mentor for a specified time frame.

Billy,

I think all riders should be made to attend a session.
Reason being, there is currently nothing in place at present to grade/advise/instruct a rider, nor was there when they first attained their licence.
It might seem to be ok to instruct people acquiring new licenses from now on - but what if someone who you thought was 'highly skilled' went on to cause an accident? Would a coroner ask if they too had the instruction? If not, why not? Just cause they've been 'around' done not make them 'experienced'. A 10 year veteran backmarker in the superbike class does not mean that he is as experienced as Stroudy.

Imagine how bad our roads would be if there were no reminders in place for changes of road rules since you got your drivers licence 40 years ago.... There would be carnage.
Think of commercial pilots - they get amendments very regularly. They are trained/advised/instructed for the worst case scenario - but how many of them would ever have to use their knowledge and trained skill?? Very few! But they still need to know it. We all know the results if they don't.......

Would you think a 500GP rider was experienced? I would! So why did Kevin Magee do a burnout over the brow of a hill at Laguna many years ago and nearly kill Bubba Shobert? Dumb shit, from someone at the pinnacle of their sport!

If you bring in an instruction course (or whatever you want to call it), it has to be applied to all users of the circuit.
Flaggies need to know whats acceptable also. Stewards/Clerks need to take action if the rules are breached.

I sincerely hope you don't roll this out without input from alot of very experienced competitors - otherwise it would be seen by a few to be a boys club.

I look forward to reading more on this topic.

Well done Billy.


Scrivy

[Billy]

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.


You mean a fast rider ........

No, that's the sort of shit that should be sending people home. That shit kills.

And thats the sort of stuff I'm talking about and exactly the response I would expect.

[MSTRS]

Flaggies need to know whats acceptable also.

Too bloody right. Over the years, there's been too many instances where flaggies are not up to the job. Which is why MNZ will soon insist that a trained, certified marshal must be used at every point.
Doesn't matter if it's "only club racing". So what? The dangers are perhaps even more real, with a mix of people (riders and officials) both on and off the track whose attitudes are just a bit too casual

[scracha]

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

Glad you clarified. I thought you merely meant someone doing a block pass or holding their inside line. The braking swerving thing is bloody dangerous indeed.



Another idea I came up with and would like too see implemented is that all entry forms for roadracing have a list of,Say 5 questions from relevant chapters of the rulebook that have to be answered before an entry can be accepted,Cause lets face it,Alot of the issues we cover here are mentioned in the rules


That'd take far too much manpower to police. This is where technology could come in. Online entry. 5 multiple choice from a large pool of questions, but you have to get them ALL correct. Repeat until all 5 are correct.

[Bert]

...... Online entry. 5 multiple choice from a large pool of questions, but you have to get them ALL correct. Repeat until all 5 are correct.

That's a solid suggestion especially given on-line entries are getting underway (after the payment screen for entry conformation/approval):

But maybe if you get any of the five wrong (esp. safety questions); you need to answer the entire pool of question correct...

the rules are online so surely it not too hard to have them open just in-case.... especially if $$ is on the line.

[scrivy]

Imagine if at riders briefing, the steward picked 10 random competitors to answer 10 safety questions. If ya got them wrong you went home!!! :Oops:
That would get people perusing their rulebook in a hurry!!

It would also help others who were unsure of the answer. :yes:

[jellywrestler]

Imagine if at riders briefing, the steward picked 10 random competitors to answer 10 safety questions. If ya got them wrong you went home!!! :Oops:
That would get people perusing their rulebook in a hurry!!

It would also help others who were unsure of the answer. :yes: but riders don't have to go to riders briefing these days, so that scuttles that idea.

[Billy]

but riders don't have to go to riders briefing these days, so that scuttles that idea.

WTF!!!! read the rulebook 6.1 in particular

[jellywrestler]

WTF!!!! read the rulebook 6.1 in particular

two things i'd question here Billy,

doesn't include passengers, is this a good thing?

I saw a number of times at last years nationals from memory where team managers went to riders briefing instead of the riders, or was that something different?

[Billy]

two things i'd question here Billy,

doesn't include passengers, is this a good thing?

I saw a number of times at last years nationals from memory where team managers went to riders briefing instead of the riders, or was that something different?

Probably not re passengers,

Riders briefing is for riders,NOT team managers,If you witness it this year and the riders not present at the briefing I would appreciate if you were to let me know.

[Kickaha]

Another idea I came up with and would like too see implemented is that all entry forms for roadracing have a list of,Say 5 questions from relevant chapters of the rulebook that have to be answered before an entry can be accepted
When I was Kart racing there were three stages of licence, club champs, Island champs and National champs, each progression to a higher level was a brief test on certain rules and having to get a certain amount right followed by being under observation for that meeting

I saw a number of times at last years nationals from memory where team managers went to riders briefing instead of the riders, or was that something different?
I've been at National meetings where multiple NZ championship winners didn't turn up until it was over but different rules seemed to apply to them