Red Flags - Should you get points if you cause a red flag event and DNF? [Archive]

Biggles08

28th July 2012, 16:12

As the title says.

I have submitted s request for this rule to be looked at and changed as I believe if you DNF a race you DNF a race and should be awarded no points for that race as though it had been completed.

Currently it goes back a lap from the time the red flag is shown and points/positions are awarded based on this previous lap regardless if you actually caused/were involved in the Red Flag incident or not. This has been a rule I have never agreed with and find completely illogical and unfair to those who manage to stay on.

I have suggested:

"to gain points in a race that is 'called' due to a red flag being displayed, you need to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane under your own effort (ie no assistance from recovery vehicles) within 5 minutes of the red flag being displayed. If you are unable to do this you forfeit any points/positions for that race and the next position behind would move forward into this placing. This would also apply to any 2nd rider (3rd, 4th etc) who may have been caught up in the red flag incident also."

What are your thoughts on this?

Shorty_925

28th July 2012, 16:20

Like this crash : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxH_jlqtwG0 was in last weekends WSS, he still got 6th for the race, yet caused the red flag.

scott411

28th July 2012, 16:22

its always been a tricky one to call, because i agree the prime cause should be excluded, but innocent parties may get done as well, say someone dropped a heap of oil and 5 guys went down on it in one laps, should all of those riders be excluded?

or what would happen if you stopped to help a rider that was in a bad way? (not really a road race thing but these rules cover MX as well)

Biggles08

28th July 2012, 16:32

its always been a tricky one to call, because i agree the prime cause should be excluded, but innocent parties may get done as well, say someone dropped a heap of oil and 5 guys went down on it in one laps, should all of those riders be excluded?

Yes....shit happens all the time when racing and I've been taken out on more than one occassion at no fault of mine...but thats racing. The rules all of a sudden change when the race is red flagged then everyone wants a piece of the points. If the same circumstance you describe happened in a race yet the Red flag was not shown for what ever reason, none of those downed riders would get any points so its no different.

or what would happen if you stopped to help a rider that was in a bad way? (not really a road race thing but these rules cover MX as well)

Road racing you should NEVER stop on the track whatsoever so this rule would only apply to road racing not MX.

neil_cb125t

28th July 2012, 17:10

hey dude

Its a tricky one - it used to be if the race didn’t make a % of 'completeness' then that race was officially called and then ANOTHER race was run and the points are split between those two races, . I.e when I high sided at the Esses and got a free ambo ride, I claimed full points for the first race (12.5) then the following separate race I didn't claim any due to missing it.

I don’t think that it’s the fairest system – seems to back up the crasher…..i won the championship due to it. Simpler is def better, maybe if the race is restarted then all participants must restart the race to gain points from the first race….. no time limits just be there when the reds go out. If you DNS in the restart you miss out points from both……basically means crashers who don’t restart loss out.

An innocent victim to the crash yeah it sucks but again if he/she makes it out there then awesome – if not then they can’t continue anyway.

As the title says.

I have submitted s request for this rule to be looked at and changed as I believe if you DNF a race you DNF a race and should be awarded no points for that race as though it had been completed.

Currently it goes back a lap from the time the red flag is shown and points/positions are awarded based on this previous lap regardless if you actually caused/were involved in the Red Flag incident or not. This has been a rule I have never agreed with and find completely illogical and unfair to those who manage to stay on.

I have suggested:

"to gain points in a race that is 'called' due to a red flag being displayed, you need to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane under your own effort (ie no assistance from recovery vehicles) within 5 minutes of the red flag being displayed. If you are unable to do this you forfeit any points/positions for that race and the next position behind would move forward into this placing. This would also apply to any 2nd rider (3rd, 4th etc) who may have been caught up in the red flag incident also."

What are your thoughts on this?

Biggles08

28th July 2012, 17:15

tigertim20

28th July 2012, 17:37

Biggles08

28th July 2012, 17:46

my thoughts on this is that you will have guys who drag the meeting out, by walking their bike to the finish line in order to get those points, especially at nationals rounds, and especially if they were running in the top group

".....to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane...."

Walking your bike on the track is NOT safe and would not be allowed...not to mention there are no points for coming last anyway....which you surely would if you are walking.

Maido

28th July 2012, 18:27

Biggles08

28th July 2012, 18:31

I don't agree, i think it is stink if you get taken out. However it would tidy it up so it is probably a good thing. Not every rule can please everyone and I can happily accept that.
What do they do in WSS, WSBK, ASBK etc? surely if it is good enough for them....

I understand in MotoGP its a 5 minute rule but can't confirm that. Apparently in WSBK they go back a lap according to Shorty_925 as quoted earlier. Can't confirm.

And yes it is stink if you get taken out but how can you rule on that one?!

jellywrestler

28th July 2012, 19:15

".....to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane...."

yep and if you've crashed and damaged the crankcases and oil is pissing out without you knowing....

of course oil has only ever leaked from sidecars so the solos are A OK

Maido

28th July 2012, 19:28

CHOPPA

28th July 2012, 20:09

discodan

28th July 2012, 20:59

Good call Marcus.

BSB have implemented this and it has worked well except for one inccident when a rider took a bunch of other riders out when his bike left oil on the track.

I think it should be implemented here and all other championships. From memory the wording of the rule over there is that everyone who is 'on their bike' at the time of the red flag is allowed to restart. The only problem I have with a 5 min rule is that it still leaves it open to riders who intentionally lay prone until a red flag comes out, they could still have time to ride their bike back to the pits if it is not too damaged.

Peter Smith

28th July 2012, 23:16

I would completely support that rule change. It rewards people for getting the race red flagged. I have seen people milk it.....

If you crash your out hard luck. If you get taken out, hard luck. If the race wasnt red flagged you wouldnt finish anyway

I was racing at Hampton Downs, got into second place and was chasing the leader when he highsided, the race was red flaged and called complete. He still won, WTF.
It is still a tough call wether to change the rules as in most cases it seems fair.

jellywrestler

28th July 2012, 23:43

I think these doays most solos have protector engine covers to prevent this. It should be a complusary thing I think, i believe it is in most domestic series around the place. it saves oil splills and engine covers = win both ways.

they're not available for all models and not foolproof, radiators waterpipese etc could also be punctured. Not the point of Mucus's thread just a side comment really

wharfy

29th July 2012, 11:42

I have change my opinion of this, I used to support the revert to previous lap rule, but now I think if you crash your out whether its your fault or not and you should not be allowed to restart until your bike has been checked over, so if there is no red flag your fucked.
If there is a red flag and you can get back get your bike checked and be on the line for the restart you get whatever points are available for the second part of the race. It still means someone who was an arsehole could ¨play posssum¨ to get a red flag to try and get back into it but I would think that would be obvious to the officials and/or other teams and a protest could be initiated.

jellywrestler

29th July 2012, 11:49

It still means someone who was an arsehole could ¨play posssum¨ to get a red flag to try and get back into it but I would think that would be obvious to the officials and/or other teams and a protest could be initiated.
If you're on the ground for a period of time maybe said person needs medical clearance to resume play , this may halt that shit?

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 13:42

From memory the wording of the rule over there is that everyone who is 'on their bike' at the time of the red flag is allowed to restart.

That's a good idea and achieves the same thing...those who crash can't restart or gain points in the race just red flagged.

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 13:48

yep and if you've crashed and damaged the crankcases and oil is pissing out without you knowing....

of course oil has only ever leaked from sidecars so the solos are A OK

If you crash and oil is 'pissing out' of the crank case and you can't see it then I'd say you shouldn't be racing anyway as clearly your vision has been affected by the spill. Remember, the race would have been red flagged so there is no race in action, you pick your bike up check it has all the right bits in the right place with no oil/fluids obviously leaking then you get yourself back to the pits for a re-check by an official before you are allowed to race it again.

Anyway, this was what I was meaning but I like Disco Dan's idea better, you need to be 'on your bike' when the Red Flag is shown to be eligible for any points or any potential restart. That's cleaner and no ambiguity.

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 13:52

I was racing at Hampton Downs, got into second place and was chasing the leader when he highsided, the race was red flaged and called complete. He still won, WTF.
It is still a tough call wether to change the rules as in most cases it seems fair.
I disagree, most cases it is UNFAIR as any rider who causes the red flag ends up getting points as it stands now (unless he is so far back in the pack he/she wasn't in the points anyway)...how is that fair?

Also, the scenario is more common than you are making out. I have been racing for only 3 years and it has happened at least half a dozen times in my races.

Drew

29th July 2012, 13:56

Drew

29th July 2012, 13:58

I disagree, most cases it is UNFAIR as any rider who causes the red flag ends up getting points as it stands now (unless he is so far back in the pack he/she wasn't in the points anyway)...how is that fair?

Also, the scenario is more common than you are making out. I have been racing for only 3 years and it has happened at least half a dozen times in my races.

Start running consistantly at the pointy end, and keep the thing upright, problem solved.:bleh:

jellywrestler

29th July 2012, 14:00

If you crash and oil is 'pissing out' of the crank case and you can't see it then I'd say you shouldn't be racing anyway as clearly your vision has been affected by the spill. Remember, the race would have been red flagged so there is no race in action, you pick your bike up check it has all the right bits in the right place with no oil/fluids obviously leaking then you get yourself back to the pits for a re-check by an official before you are allowed to race it again.

Sorry Biggles but I disagree, do you think everyone at every level of roadracing can and will be able to check their bike after having a crash, by themselves, in a muddy paddock, without a stand, to be 100% sure there's nothing, and i mean nothing, wrong with it. Even if they do they'll probably do it with the bike off then run the risk of jumping on the track under power and have shit spurt out...

Then there's some who simply don't care and just want to get back to the pits whatever there bikes leaking. One rule needs to do it's best to cover all scenarios

you also stated 'with no oil/fluids obviously leaking' if you think that's acceptable and good enough to return to the pits like that then maybe you shouldn't be racing...

jellywrestler

29th July 2012, 14:01

I disagree, most cases it is UNFAIR as any rider who causes the red flag ends up getting points as it stands now (unless he is so far back in the pack he/she wasn't in the points anyway)...how is that fair?

Also, the scenario is more common than you are making out. I have been racing for only 3 years and it has happened at least half a dozen times in my races.
hey did you get footage of David Hall at the Hairpin last weekend?

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 14:20

I'm not reading this thread, I'm just gonna call you a retard again.

The rule is the way it is, FOR YOUR PROTECTION of points. Because there can be no argument regarding blame of an accident, where more than one person is involved.

So, the rule is the same for everyone. You will sometimes win out, and sometimes lose out, but it's the same for everyone.

I don't get your point? Its not about whos at blame for an accident...and I 100% agree with you that you win some you lose some and that is why I think it is far better to exclude anyone who was not on there bike at the time the Red Flag was shown from any points or any restart opportunitys as Disco Dan suggested (regardless if they were caught up in an accident from someone elses misjudgment). That protects everyones points who is still racing.

Its just stupid and completely illogical that someone can potentially win a race yet crash out aswell (actually this happened on the weekend with David who was winning our race but then crashed - which bought this point to mind again) ...thats not right?! As it turned out David couldn't make the next race so the points were not affected in any way but still, this rule is a dumb one and if I was the one who crashed I would still think it is a dumb one and wouldn't think I should get points for red flagging a race!

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 14:21

Start running consistantly at the pointy end, and keep the thing upright, problem solved.:bleh:

....Ok :cool:

Dave-

29th July 2012, 15:10

"to gain points in a race that is 'called' due to a red flag being displayed, you need to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane under your own effort (ie no assistance from recovery vehicles) within 5 minutes of the red flag being displayed. If you are unable to do this you forfeit any points/positions for that race and the next position behind would move forward into this placing. This would also apply to any 2nd rider (3rd, 4th etc) who may have been caught up in the red flag incident also."[/FONT][/SIZE]

What are your thoughts on this?

soooo

what if you crash further than 5 mins from the pit?

what if you crash at the enterance to pit?

who's timing? to how many decimal places?

sounds like a maelstrom of bullshit equal to or greater than the current system.

what's the purpose of the one-lap-back rule? it's always seemed ironic to me that in a sport where milliseconds make the difference a whole lap is taken away....a lot can happen in 1 lap...

scott411

29th July 2012, 15:14

what's the purpose of the one-lap-back rule? it's always seemed ironic to me that in a sport where milliseconds make the difference a whole lap is taken away....a lot can happen in 1 lap...

one of the reasons for the red flag rule going back to the last completed lap is so you do not get people racing to the finish line under the red flag which can be going past the scene of the accident

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 15:48

soooo
what if you crash further than 5 mins from the pit?
You won't make it back in time so can't start the race or gain points if it is not restarted...simple

what if you crash at the enterance to pit?You might be lucky and make it to a restart or back to the pitlane to gain points...simple really.

who's timing? to how many decimal places?Who's ordered to put the red flag out, I guess they would be the timekeeper and judge and jury (COC or MNZ Steward I'd hazzard a guess).

sounds like a maelstrom of bullshit equal to or greater than the current system.It seems to work for MotoGP mate.

what's the purpose of the one-lap-back rule? it's always seemed ironic to me that in a sport where milliseconds make the difference a whole lap is taken away....a lot can happen in 1 lap...

So you are not racing around a track for position while it is under red flag....once again simple really :baby:

DEATH_INC.

29th July 2012, 15:52

Didn't it used to be long ago that the cause of the red couldn't restart or be counted as a finisher? Or am I thinking of something else....

I don't think it's right, you could potentially go out riding way over your head and consistently get points for being dangerous if you did it every race.....

Bykmad

29th July 2012, 16:43

Why oh Why Marcus. Do some research and use the relevant Moto GP rules in their entirety, because they work. When people cherry pick the little bits that they like they normally make rules that are unenforceable.
Here is the link.
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/GP_en.pdf
Pages 43 - 45.

Here is the relative rule from the FIM website.

1.25 Interruption of a race
1.25.1 If the Race Director decides to interrupt a race, then red flags will be
displayed at the finish line and at all marshals’ posts and he will switch
on the red lights around the circuit. Riders must immediately slow down
and return to the pit lane.
The results will be the results taken at the last point where the leader
and all other riders on the same lap as the leader had completed a full
lap without the red flag being displayed
Exception: if the race is interrupted after the chequered flag, the following
procedure will apply:
1) For all the riders to whom the chequered flag was shown before the
interruption, a partial classification will be established at the end of the
last lap of the race.
2) For all the riders to whom the chequered flag was not shown before
the interruption, a partial classification will be established at the end of
the penultimate lap of the race.
3) The complete classification will be established by combining both
partial classifications as per the lap/time procedure.
At the time the red flag is displayed, riders who are not actively competing
in the race will not be classified.
Within 5 minutes after the red flag has been displayed, riders who have
not entered the pit lane, pushing or riding on their motorcycle, will not
be classified.
1.25.2 If the results calculated show that less than three laps have been
completed by the leader of the race and by all other riders on the same
lap as the leader, then the race will be null and void and a completely
new race will be run.
If it is found impossible to re-start the race, then it will be declared
cancelled and the race will not count for the Championship.
43
6510002_GP course sur route.indd 91 06.02.12 17:301.25.3 If three laps or more have been completed by the leader of the race and
all other riders on the same lap as the leader, but less than two-thirds of
the original race distance, rounded down to the nearest whole number
of laps, then the race will be restarted according to Art. 1.26.
If it is found impossible to restart the race, then the results will count and
half points will be awarded in the Championship.
1.25.4 If the results calculated show that two-thirds of the original race distance
rounded down to the nearest whole number of laps have been completed
by the leader of the race and by all other riders on the same lap as the
leader, then for the Moto3 and Moto2 classes the race will be deemed
to have been completed and full Championship points will be awarded.
For the MotoGP class, the race will be restarted for a minimum of 5 laps
according to Art. 1.26.
If it is found impossible to restart the race, then the results will count and
full Championship points will be awarded.
1.26 Re-Starting a race that has been interrupted
1.26.1 If a race has to be re-started, then it will be done as quickly as possible,
consistent with track conditions allowing. As soon as the riders have
returned to the pits the Clerk of the Course will announce a time for the
new start procedure to begin which, conditions permitting, should not be
later than 10 minutes after the initial display of the red flag.
1.26.2 The results of the first race must be available to teams before the second
part of a race can be started.
1.26.3 The start procedure will be identical to a normal start with sighting laps,
warm-up lap, etc.
1.26.4 Conditions for the re-started race will be as follows:
i) In the case of situation described in 1.25.2(less than 3 laps
completed) above:
a. All riders may re-start.
44
6510002_GP course sur route.indd 93 06.02.12 17:30 b. Motorcycles may be repaired or changed. Refuelling is
permitted.
c. - For Moto3 and Moto2, the number of laps will be two-thirds
of the original race distance rounded down to the nearest
whole number of laps.
- For MotoGP, the number of laps will be the same as the
original race distance.
d. The grid positions will be as for the original race.
ii) In the case of situation described in 1.25.3 (3 laps or more and less
than two-thirds completed) and 1.25.4 (two-thirds completed for
MotoGP only) above:
a. Only riders who are classified as finishers in the first race may
re-start.
b. Motorcycles may be repaired or changed. Refuelling is
permitted.
c. - For Moto3 and Moto2, the number of laps of the second race
will be the number of laps required to complete two-thirds of
the original race distance rounded down to the nearest whole
number of laps with a minimum of 5 laps.
- For MotoGP, the number of laps of the second race will be the
number of laps required to complete the original race distance
with a minimum of 5 laps.
d. The grid position will be based on the finishing order of the first
race.
e. The final race classification will be established according to
the position and the consolidated number of laps of each rider
at the time he crossed the finish line at the end of the last part
of the race. Provisions of Art. 1.24.4 will apply.

The relevant rule numbers from the MNZ GCR's would have to be inserted.

Now you have the correct wording, submit your rule change, but don't do things half arsed, because it is not you that has to enforce rules.

Drew

29th July 2012, 16:52

I don't get your point? Its not about whos at blame for an accident...and I 100% agree with you that you win some you lose some and that is why I think it is far better to exclude anyone who was not on there bike at the time the Red Flag was shown from any points or any restart opportunitys as Disco Dan suggested (regardless if they were caught up in an accident from someone elses misjudgment). That protects everyones points who is still racing.

Its just stupid and completely illogical that someone can potentially win a race yet crash out aswell (actually this happened on the weekend with David who was winning our race but then crashed - which bought this point to mind again) ...thats not right?! As it turned out David couldn't make the next race so the points were not affected in any way but still, this rule is a dumb one and if I was the one who crashed I would still think it is a dumb one and wouldn't think I should get points for red flagging a race!

There isn't a perfect way to do it. There are as many unjusts in any system intill you have the same number of marshals on EVERY corner, as there are racers out there. Each with just one bike to watch the whole time. But unless they are all perfect clones they will interpret things differently and it still wont be fair.

I'm sorry mate, but once every coulpe years, some newbe cries about the same thing, and every time they are left with nothing more than "Deal with it, we all have".

I know you're not a newbe anymore, but I'm sure you've waded in on this same boring argument in the past.

The system is as fair as any other given the resources at hand.

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 17:52

Why oh Why Marcus. Do some research and use the relevant Moto GP rules in their entirety, because they work. When people cherry pick the little bits that they like they normally make rules that are unenforceable.

Now you have the correct wording, submit your rule change, but don't do things half arsed, because it is not you that has to enforce rules.

Why oh why do you see the need to come on here harassing me about doing things half arsed?! Do some research??? Why? I am suggesting an idea, not an absolute rule as I type it and send it.

Thank you for the link to the specific rules I alluded to...however, I'm not trying to write a new rule here, I am merely suggesting there is a better, fairer way...I'm not pretending to be a rule maker, I'm out there racing... pretending to be a MotoGP racer. I'll leave the wording and legal terminology up to those far more qualified. I am only tabling an idea for consideration that I believe has merit.

I have already made the suggestion to MNZ.

Drew

29th July 2012, 18:01

I have already made the suggestion to MNZ.Oh Christ, they take long enough to sort shit out now, without you giving them crap to slowly ignore!

Biggles08

29th July 2012, 18:05

There isn't a perfect way to do it. There are as many unjusts in any system intill you have the same number of marshals on EVERY corner, as there are racers out there. Each with just one bike to watch the whole time. But unless they are all perfect clones they will interpret things differently and it still wont be fair.
Firstly...youre a retard.

....regarding the rest in this paragraph, I'm still confused as you seem to be arguing something completely different to what I am saying...

All I am suggesting is if you are caught up in a Red Flag incident you should not gain any points from that race. If you crash in any other race but its not red flagged you are a DNF. Why should it be any different if you crash but cause a Red Flag? If you DNF you should DNF in the results!

I'm sorry mate, but once every coulpe years, some newbe cries about the same thing, and every time they are left with nothing more than "Deal with it, we all have".
I know you're not a newbe anymore, but I'm sure you've waded in on this same boring argument in the past.
The system is as fair as any other given the resources at hand.
No its not....the system that does not encourage a rider to lay on a track to get the race red flagged is a better system.

I know I'm not alone in thinking this rule is silly and should be changed....in fact, your the only racer (ahem) who has said keep it this way...every other person I have talked to about this rule wants it changed too.

Shaun

29th July 2012, 18:23

My Vote

If you were the cause of the red flag, NO RESTART

If you were taken out by some one causing a red flag, very bad luck

speights_bud

29th July 2012, 19:34

".....to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane...."

Walking your bike on the track is NOT safe and would not be allowed...not to mention there are no points for coming last anyway....which you surely would if you are walking.

HAven't read the whole thread yet but under current rules you are not allowed to push bike across the line/along the track in Road racing

Drew

29th July 2012, 19:38

My Vote

If you were the cause of the red flag, NO RESTART

If you were taken out by some one causing a red flag, very bad luck

Christ, any hope is now lost.

GD66

29th July 2012, 21:00

Didn't it used to be long ago that the cause of the red couldn't restart or be counted as a finisher? Or am I thinking of something else....

That's the fairest way. Excluded from the result, which is otherwise as the bikes crossed the line on the lap before the red flag. And no restart. Any collateral damage is then confined, as other riders crashed out by the red flag cause will still be in the results as published.

Dave-

29th July 2012, 21:28

You won't make it back in time so can't start the race or gain points if it is not restarted...simple

Bit unfair isn't it?

You might be lucky and make it to a restart or back to the pitlane to gain points...simple really.

Bit unfair isn't it?

Who's ordered to put the red flag out, I guess they would be the timekeeper and judge and jury (COC or MNZ Steward I'd hazzard a guess).

Sounds like a good idea, can he be trusted to get it right? It won't be too much extra work load?

It seems to work for MotoGP mate.

Sweet

So you are not racing around a track for position while it is under red flag....once again simple really :baby:

If you can get a guy to time people pushing bikes back surely you can take the grid order when the red flag drops? So why go a lap back?

speights_bud

29th July 2012, 21:49

If you're on the ground for a period of time maybe said person needs medical clearance to resume play , this may halt that shit?

Happened at final round of Nationals this year. I was the marshal on the Quad who attended a particular red flag incident. I believe the rider (and this is my personal opinion as i was there first hand) deliberately milked the incident by tucking his head away from me until he heard me repeat back into my radio that i was happy with the red flag call as the rider was unresponsive. As soon as he heard me say that he was up and jumping about telling me he had to get going again because "This is my National championship and I'm about to win it". I wouldn't let him go until the Medics had checked him track side, which they did and then cleared him medically ok. if he had gotten back to the pits and blah blah etc... and gotten sorted in time he would have been allowed to join the restart.

I think its a good idea to check riders over but it's not suitable to use it as a means of preventing them from re-starting after being involved in a red-flag incident.

If you are tangled up by someone else causing red-flag bad luck, sucked when it happened to me an Wanganui last year but you just gotta suck it up, its a sport where we take chances, otherwise it'd be one bike on the track at a time so everybody has a 'fair' chance right? I reckon seeing Racing is a competition, if you stuff up on your own then sorry tough cookies you failed, no points. Just like crashing and NOT causing a red flag.

Kevin G

29th July 2012, 22:39

My Vote

If you were the cause of the red flag, NO RESTART

If you were taken out by some one causing a red flag, very bad luck

So who decides who's fault it is?..impossible to enforce and run a race meeting with this type of rule in place.
Imagine the shit fights.....

A big part of rule making is that it has to be enforceable, workable and realistic hence that is why we have the rule we do, its not perfect but it works, its easy to manage and its enforceable.

Shaun

29th July 2012, 22:56

So who decides who's fault it is?..impossible to enforce and run a race meeting with this type of rule in place.
Imagine the shit fights.....

A big part of rule making is that it has to be enforceable, workable and realistic hence that is why we have the rule we do, its not perfect but it works, its easy to manage and its enforceable.

If a bike hits the ground, it MUST be re scruitineered prior to be ridden on the track again, Correct?

so if a red flag is held out, that calls for the race to be stopped correct?

So are the cluibs going to change there rules and have less classes racing on the day to allow for bikes to be picked up and re scruitineered?

NO Obviously not!

So as I posted, you have my vote

Rules are rules, but what I am reading on here today in this and other threads, people have there heads stuck to far up there arses and stuck in the 1980z to make any changes and use this site as a healthy working tool to improve OUR sport.

next I will read in this thread that this is not the place to discuss such matters hahahaha where is the OFFICUAL MNZ web site to discuss this stuff on then, You got, it does not exist because we never needed it 26 years ago, get real people

Drew

30th July 2012, 06:36

next I will read in this thread that this is not the place to discuss such matters hahahaha where is the OFFICUAL MNZ web site to discuss this stuff on then, You got, it does not exist because we never needed it 26 years ago, get real people

That's a bit inflamitory, are you still taking the meds big fella?:lol:

jellywrestler

30th July 2012, 09:18

It still means someone who was an arsehole could ¨play posssum¨ to get a red flag to try and get back into it but I would think that would be obvious to the officials and/or other teams and a protest could be initiated.

I mentioned a medical check might help stop this adding a compulsary cavity search will see most people jump up straight away, with the exception of biggles maybe...

Billy

30th July 2012, 09:53

If a bike hits the ground, it MUST be re scruitineered prior to be ridden on the track again, Correct?

so if a red flag is held out, that calls for the race to be stopped correct?

So are the cluibs going to change there rules and have less classes racing on the day to allow for bikes to be picked up and re scruitineered?

NO Obviously not!

So as I posted, you have my vote

Rules are rules, but what I am reading on here today in this and other threads, people have there heads stuck to far up there arses and stuck in the 1980z to make any changes and use this site as a healthy working tool to improve OUR sport.

next I will read in this thread that this is not the place to discuss such matters hahahaha where is the OFFICUAL MNZ web site to discuss this stuff on then, You got, it does not exist because we never needed it 26 years ago, get real people

Feel free to discuss whatever you like on this site,I think you'll find the point Kev was trying to make is its not the correct channel to have any changes instigated,We have a perfectly healthy system at mnzrrc@gmail.com whereby MEMBERS ideas are listened to and discussed amongst a group of people all who have been involved in the sport since the 70s,To date I have had no feedback to suggest I have not been reasonable to deal with in my job as roadrace commissioner and have not shyed away from trying too make the sport safer,However that does not extend to changing a system that has been in place for well over 20 years without incident simply because somebody makes a monumental mistake and the tries to blame the system for it.

In short(excuse the pun),If you think the slip road at Manfeild is dangerous Shaun and you want to be taken seriously,Become a paid up member of MNZ and contact me through the correct channels,In the meantime I will be talking to Steve at Manfeild this morning about it and a decision will probably have been made by the end of the day,In the meantime I'll just carry on with my head stuck up my arse doing the job I was asked to do to the best of my ability(Obviously not as good as you or Sloan would be cause you guys are awesome)

Shaun

30th July 2012, 23:34

Feel free to discuss whatever you like on this site,I think you'll find the point Kev was trying to make is its not the correct channel to have any changes instigated,We have a perfectly healthy system at mnzrrc@gmail.com whereby MEMBERS ideas are listened to and discussed amongst a group of people all who have been involved in the sport since the 70s,To date I have had no feedback to suggest I have not been reasonable to deal with in my job as roadrace commissioner and have not shyed away from trying too make the sport safer,However that does not extend to changing a system that has been in place for well over 20 years without incident simply because somebody makes a monumental mistake and the tries to blame the system for it.

In short(excuse the pun),If you think the slip road at Manfeild is dangerous Shaun and you want to be taken seriously,Become a paid up member of MNZ and contact me through the correct channels,In the meantime I will be talking to Steve at Manfeild this morning about it and a decision will probably have been made by the end of the day,In the meantime I'll just carry on with my head stuck up my arse doing the job I was asked to do to the best of my ability(Obviously not as good as you or Sloan would be cause you guys are awesome)

Billy, you have known me since 1986 man, dont take everything so literally and personally MATE, I KNOW you give 100% to OUR sport

suzuki21

31st July 2012, 06:40

I'm sorry mate, but once every coulpe years, some newbe cries about the same thing, and every time they are left with nothing more than "Deal with it, we all have".

I know you're not a newbe anymore, but I'm sure you've waded in on this same boring argument in the past.

The system is as fair as any other given the resources at hand.

I totally agree. No rules can always be fair, but they come close. Imagine if someone got 2nd in the SBK championship, then got a good lawyer and took MNZ to court and won the championship because the judge believed the winner "caused" a crash earlier in the season? You can never be certain who caused what.
I have a theory about all the moaning, stupid crashes, and know alls wanting to change rules now days. People starting racing now are older and therefore have "life skills" - eg. ignorance. When I was younger I learnt the rule book etc as I didnt want to get kicked out for doing stupid shit. How else can all these accidents be explained, or are we de-evolving into trained apes.
Rules should evolve, but reinventing the wheel because people are too retarted to even understand the ones we have isnt the way to do it.
And Billy - Sloan isnt a rockstar, his hair is too short.

discodan

31st July 2012, 12:27

I totally agree. No rules can always be fair, but they come close.

I agree with the above but I also think that if a rule can be changed to make it 'fair-er' then what's stopping us?

A rule that defines all riders not on their bikes at the time of the red flag coming out could be unfair for a rider taken out by the rider who 'caused' the red flag. Unfortunately, it would be very difficult to prove who caused it. However, I feel that as unfair as that scenario is, it is fairer than the more common scenario of a rider causing a red flag and getting full points for that race. If the accident had not been serious enough to red flag, that rider would have simply had a DNF anyway.

Marcus, you mentioned that David couldn't start the second race so the points ended up being the same anyway, well if the rule above had been in place then he would have lost another 25 points.

Biggles08

31st July 2012, 13:41

Rules should evolve, but reinventing the wheel because people are too retarted to even understand the ones we have isnt the way to do it.
And Billy - Sloan isnt a rockstar, his hair is too short.

Wrong thread mate...lol...but your point is fair enough and correct...however, back to the Red flag issue...it is currently NOT fair to those that are still on the bike when the red flag is shown. Can you not at least agree to that? Also, if the incident (regardless of who caused it) was off the track and everyone was unhurt, those people would not receive any points as they would be classed DNF as the race would go to completion....why does it need to change if a Red Flag is shown? Surely as suggested, only those ON thier bike when the flag is shown is a far fairer result for all. Also, that is a very clear and easy rule to enforce so expensive lawyers etc that you mentioned would have a shit show doing what you suggested.

Drew

31st July 2012, 13:45

This is rather circular.

Present a set of rules that is fairer, and present those to the powers that be. Arguing about it on here is just retarded.

Biggles08

31st July 2012, 13:50

Marcus, you mentioned that David couldn't start the second race so the points ended up being the same anyway, well if the rule above had been in place then he would have lost another 25 points.
This is true I guess however it would have been a lot worse had he made it to the next race (points wise). I'm not having a go at David either by the way as had i crashed and 'won' the race I would accept the points....doesn't mean I agree with them however, and I still wouldn't think I deserved them (and there is nothing you can do about it anyway as it is the current rule). I'm sure David like myself would like to earn all the championship points we do by beating the other guys on the track rather than being gifted points after a red flag. Isn't it the racers moto "To finish first, first you must finish!"

What ever side of the circumstances you end up on regarding the red flag rule as it currently stands, like I said I only now know of x2 people that agree the current system is the best system...all other current racers I have discussed this with think it needs changing to be fairer to those that don't crash. I personally think that its common sense.

Biggles08

31st July 2012, 13:50

This is rather circular.

Present a set of rules that is fairer, and present those to the powers that be. Arguing about it on here is just retarded.

has already been done....this is merely a discussion forum....retard.

Drew

31st July 2012, 15:20

has already been done....this is merely a discussion forum....retard.

Really, because I'm pretty sure that you said earlier you hadn't supplied a full set of proposed rules. Infact I'm almost certain you said "let those in charge sort the details", or something very close to that effect. Window licker.

Kevin G

31st July 2012, 19:39

This is rather circular.

Present a set of rules that is fairer, and present those to the powers that be. Arguing about it on here is just retarded.

Best post on the subject right there.

Kevin G

31st July 2012, 19:40

Really, because I'm pretty sure that you said earlier you hadn't supplied a full set of proposed rules. Infact I'm almost certain you said "let those in charge sort the details", or something very close to that effect. Window licker.

2nd best one there.

Bykmad

1st August 2012, 11:21

Biggles08

1st August 2012, 13:42

Marcus.
Don't just bitch on Kiwibiker.
Do something positive about what you believe is a problem.
I've given you the start point to do the job properly, so get on with it!!
Make sure that the rule you put up covers ALL possible situations, is fair and equitable and is easily understood and enforceable. It must not be ambiguous. Good luck.

I'm pretty sure thats what I have done? I have contacted MNZ, I have suggested a change should be looked at and why. I have given a suggestion and they have responded with a suitable email acknowledging my suggestion is to be considered at the correct time which I accept....

now back to the bitching.... (if that is what you believe I was doing!?)

Shaun

1st August 2012, 19:29

I'm pretty sure thats what I have done? I have contacted MNZ, I have suggested a change should be looked at and why. I have given a suggestion and they have responded with a suitable email acknowledging my suggestion is to be considered at the correct time which I accept....

now back to the bitching.... (if that is what you believe I was doing!?)

Good on ya foryour actions and starting the thread and discussion M.

If MNZ had a web site that riders with a valid license could sign into using the true name and license number, a lot of little things like this could be better managed, but for now, as this place is FULL or registered racers, I guess it is the best place to get feed back on ideas from

speights_bud

2nd August 2012, 17:43

Good on ya foryour actions and starting the thread and discussion M.

If MNZ had a web site that riders with a valid license could sign into using the true name and license number, a lot of little things like this could be better managed, but for now, as this place is FULL or registered racers, I guess it is the best place to get feed back on ideas from

Perhaps there could be a sub-forum here created in which Registered racers only can log into? Why re-invent the wheel?

jellywrestler

2nd August 2012, 17:51

Perhaps there could be a sub-forum here created in which Registered racers only can log into? Why re-invent the wheel?
I don't hold an MNZ license but would like to think I have some experience around road racing to have a say as do many other people in the pits or between race bikes too.

speights_bud

2nd August 2012, 17:53

I don't hold an MNZ license but would like to think I have some experience around road racing to have a say as do many other people in the pits or between race bikes too.

Cool so perhaps just a MNZ related sub-forum? this would also allow our marshals etc to have their say on issues also?

Biggles08

2nd August 2012, 17:54

Perhaps there could be a sub-forum here created in which Registered racers only can log into? Why re-invent the wheel?
Similar has been tried but did not work as people didn't go there...but the idea has merit.

Biggles08

2nd August 2012, 17:56

I don't hold an MNZ license but would like to think I have some experience around road racing to have a say as do many other people in the pits or between race bikes too.
No one listens to commentators anyway :bleh:

Drew

2nd August 2012, 18:02

No one listens to commentators anyway :bleh:

Yeah they do Morris ya back biter.

speights_bud

2nd August 2012, 18:39

Similar has been tried but did not work as people didn't go there...but the idea has merit.

People use the Racing pat of the forum, putting it in there surely would at least make it the place to visit if someone was looking for stuff?

jellywrestler

3rd August 2012, 15:56

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/cycling/7409807/Gold-medal-cyclist-crashed-deliberately

Dave-

3rd August 2012, 20:36

Perhaps there could be a sub-forum here created in which Registered racers only can log into? Why re-invent the wheel?

MNZ should outsource to kiwibiker, perhaps if the sub-forum were open to the public to view but you had to put your license number in your profile, or sign up (like L.O.A) to get contribution rights?

Shaun

4th August 2012, 08:25

MNZ should outsource to kiwibiker, perhaps if the sub-forum were open to the public to view but you had to put your license number in your profile, or sign up (like L.O.A) to get contribution rights?

Great idea! I think it should be required to have people signing in with the real name and or MNZ License also, why, to make all accountable for what they say and also to create a data of logic/comments from people.

Marketing? It would also give an opportunity to promote your sponsors on this site in your signature with each post.

It is so typical of riders to just complain but not do anything action wise to try and change potentually negative situations, this forum could/would give our road racing committee a general over site of what the riders/marshalls/fans want from the sport in the year 2012 and beyond, which in turn could allow to offer up preposed rule changes well in advance to get feed back on those proposals.

Biggles08

4th August 2012, 09:31

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/cycling/7409807/Gold-medal-cyclist-crashed-deliberately

Too much power Spyda...that's what it is...too much power!

Billy

4th August 2012, 10:18

Great idea! I think it should be required to have people signing in with the real name and or MNZ License also, why, to make all accountable for what they say and also to create a data of logic/comments from people.

Marketing? It would also give an opportunity to promote your sponsors on this site in your signature with each post.

It is so typical of riders to just complain but not do anything action wise to try and change potentually negative situations, this forum could/would give our road racing committee a general over site of what the riders/marshalls/fans want from the sport in the year 2012 and beyond, which in turn could allow to offer up preposed rule changes well in advance to get feed back on those proposals.

Or it could just be left as it is and when the members on here have agreed on a subject,It could be forwarded on to the roadrace commissioner for the commission to review,Be warned however,Just because the Kiwibiker website agrees on something or has a majority vote,Doesn't mean its going to get past the commission and then the board for ratification,BUT we are always ready to listen and to be honest,Making it a licence holders only forum just doesnt work for me,Ive seen some bloody good ideas on here from peeps that are not MNZ members and will not get listened to through the channels at MNZ,It also disqualifies too many ex competitors with mountains of knowledge.

A good example is the discussion surrounding the incidents highlighted by the jellyman at Manfeild,I didn't contact Steve at Manfeild because of anything Choppa had to say,I just looked at his post and decided he was using it as an excuse for his mistake,I contacted Steve on the back of yours and Glen Williams comments as I knew you guys were removed from the immediate issue and were expressing your personal views AND on the face of that information I would be negligent not to atleast ask the question of the circuit owners.

On that basis,Maybe its better not to reinvent the wheel,Rather,Give it a balance up and use it in a more positive manner like the jellyman was trying to do.

Just my 2c

Drew

4th August 2012, 10:27

, which in turn could allow to offer up preposed rule changes well in advance to get feed back on those proposals.

Right there is where your utopian idea goes tits up.

Why would the comitee want to trawl through pages and pages of bulshit, to read the same opinion written fifty different ways, by largly barely literate egotisticle fuckin bike racers?

Yes, discussion forum on a rule change is good, on this sort of scale it is a complete fuck up.

Lets look at the most recent rule change that I can think of, the allowance of 400cc two strokes into F3. The comitee are perfactly aware that rules may need to be giggle a bit after some track time has occured, but the whinging bitching, self cetered masses that are bike racers, (you included Shaun, don't make dredge up the footage of you tossing your fuckin toys at Wanganui for not being allowed to cross enter into F1), would still be slinging shit and nothing would have happened.

Let's dumb it down a bit shall we.

Democracy is based, on the populace voting into power, a number of people who represent the ideals of said populace. We are meant to put ito power, someone for each group within the group. So on a much smaller scale, they can discuss and decide how things get run. When the masses stick their oar in on every little matter, nothing gets done.

Drew

4th August 2012, 10:29

Or it could just be left as it is and when the members on here have agreed on a subject, Be warned however,Just because the kiwibiker website agrees on something or has a majority votec

Hahahahahahahahaha, my point illustrated.

Billy, you can promise to change every rule in the book as soon as the Kiwibiker community has agreed on the replacement. And never need a fuckin pen to write one.

speights_bud

4th August 2012, 11:07

All i was suggesting is a sub-forum where i (and others) could go 'Oh hey what MNZ/Rule related issues are currently being discussed? I'll go have a look in the MNZ area.'

Not Intended as a 'formal tool' to be used by MNZ to make decisions/public notifications etc. But a place to discuss the opinions or riders and others.

I don't see the harm though if our MNZ Rep's chose to post relevant information about actual changes etc.

You can bitch among yourselves as much as you like on here but I would just like a place to categorize MNZ/Competition rules etc related discussion so everyone doesn't have to sort through the rest of the forum to find it.

ellipsis

4th August 2012, 11:13

Great idea! I think it should be required to have people signing in with the real name and or MNZ License also, why, to make all accountable for what they say and also to create a data of logic/comments from people.

Marketing? It would also give an opportunity to promote your sponsors on this site in your signature with each post.

It is so typical of riders to just complain but not do anything action wise to try and change potentually negative situations, this forum could/would give our road racing committee a general over site of what the riders/marshalls/fans want from the sport in the year 2012 and beyond, which in turn could allow to offer up preposed rule changes well in advance to get feed back on those proposals.

...would it make any difference to the transparency of those who are elected to the top positions in the sport...it seems that a dictatorial president who refuses to answer questions when sent them by official channels, who somehow thinks that holding back those who actually run the sport and yet at the same time running around the country waving bits of paper at rooms full of volunteers, mouthing the same meaningless words..."we all have to be reading from the same page"...that would be cool if he didnt keep rewriting the book or choosing a different page to the one we are on...good people who make this sport run down here are leaving or considering that option and no one is coming forward to keep things running...as someone up the page mentioned, a few riders not turning up wont stop the show, but if we officials (who are actually claytons officials, according to the hierarchy) dont turn up, there is no sport...

Neil Morrison
President, Classic Action Motorcycle Sport (SI)
#6285

Billy

4th August 2012, 12:44

...would it make any difference to the transparency of those who are elected to the top positions in the sport...it seems that a dictatorial president who refuses to answer questions when sent them by official channels, who somehow thinks that holding back those who actually run the sport and yet at the same time running around the country waving bits of paper at rooms full of volunteers, mouthing the same meaningless words..."we all have to be reading from the same page"...that would be cool if he didnt keep rewriting the book or choosing a different page to the one we are on...good people who make this sport run down here are leaving or considering that option and no one is coming forward to keep things running...as someone up the page mentioned, a few riders not turning up wont stop the show, but if we officials (who are actually claytons officials, according to the hierarchy) dont turn up, there is no sport...

Neil Morrison
President, Classic Action Motorcycle Sport (SI)
#6285

Yea,Not sure your actually on the same page as the bulk of the contributors in this section,My impression is they want to discuss matters regarding roadracing,All queries and ideas re roadracing should be directed to the roadrace commissioner(thats me presently) as I run the sport,Not the president,If you send your enquiries/concerns to the wrong people,The right people may never get to hear/see them,

I have intiated some changes with the office re the issuing of permits for roadrace events,From now on,EVERY permit application will have to come to me for approval as it appears there are clubs out there that are running classes at their events that have NO official rules,Hardly fair on those that are not in the loop,Under the old system,Only those permit applications with entry forms required my approval,In my opinion,That just worsens the situation as those who turn up to enter on the day,Can't possibly know whether their machine is eligible if there are NO supp regs,All the clubs I have dealt with on this matter to date,Have had no problem complying with my requests and understand that while things hadnt been done correctly in the past,They will be from now on,We on the commission are not here to say no,We just want it too be a level playing feild for all to enjoy.

Graeme Billington
Roadrace commissioner
Motorcycling NZ
#0258

RobGassit

4th August 2012, 15:22

#0258? That's only a couple after Jesus!

Billy

4th August 2012, 15:25

#0258? That's only a couple after Jesus!

Yea, or a couple just before,Some have been trying to get it changed to 666 !!!!!!

RobGassit

4th August 2012, 15:28

Yea, or a couple just before,Some have been trying to get it changed to 666 !!!!!!

Did you have the bugger that exiled you from KB killed? Or are you risking the wrath of the powers that be if they only could? Be that is?

Billy

4th August 2012, 15:34

Did you have the bugger that exiled you from KB killed? Or are you risking the wrath of the powers that be if they only could? Be that is?

Hahahaha!If you go back and read the post,All I said was the board had asked me not to comment on this site,I never said I agreed to it LOL!

RobGassit

4th August 2012, 15:39

Billy

4th August 2012, 15:47

[QUOTE=Billy;1130369884]Hahahaha!If you go back and read the post,All I said was the board had asked me not to comment on this site,I never said I agreed to it LOL![

You're a legend. Someone should write a book about your life,(witout all the swearing of course) so kid's could read it without asking mummy awkward questions about what that word mean't etc. And people would say, I knew Billy when he was,,,,etc etc. Like Ernie does when he's a little pissed.

Yeah,He's a bit of a problem is old Mr Cudby,Hes lived way longer than I expected and remembers waaay to much of the shit we got up to in the 70s,Still you'll notice he never brings any of it up when Im around,Hes got a few skeletons of his own and every now and then I remind him of one or two haha!

Dave-

4th August 2012, 17:16

Yea,Not sure your actually on the same page as the bulk of the contributors in this section,My impression is they want to discuss matters regarding roadracing,All queries and ideas re roadracing should be directed to the roadrace commissioner(thats me presently) as I run the sport,Not the president,If you send your enquiries/concerns to the wrong people,The right people may never get to hear/see them,

I have intiated some changes with the office re the issuing of permits for roadrace events,From now on,EVERY permit application will have to come to me for approval as it appears there are clubs out there that are running classes at their events that have NO official rules,Hardly fair on those that are not in the loop,Under the old system,Only those permit applications with entry forms required my approval,In my opinion,That just worsens the situation as those who turn up to enter on the day,Can't possibly know whether their machine is eligible if there are NO supp regs,All the clubs I have dealt with on this matter to date,Have had no problem complying with my requests and understand that while things hadnt been done correctly in the past,They will be from now on,We on the commission are not here to say no,We just want it too be a level playing feild for all to enjoy.

Graeme Billington
Roadrace commissioner
Motorcycling NZ
#0258

Massive respect here, it's clear you've been in the sport longer than I've been alive, but that first paragraph screams communication problems to me. Far be it from me to suggest that MNZ has internal communication problems, but theoretically I should be able to send an email to asdfgh@motorcyclingnz.co.nz and it should redirect to the admin, who has at least some sort of filtering/forwarding system to the president of the club (or whoever) while this is an extreme case there really ought to be a better medium for people to contact MNZ. We have the technology!

I found How to change a Rule Step 3 states "The proposed change is placed on the website, under proposed rule changes. Submissions are called for." why can't this be incorporated to a medium which is obviously popular?

This is why I suggest a forum, don't be frightened off by the shit storm that is kiwibiker, I stay out of most of it for that reason, and I'm sure right now you can see it happening in this thread, but you can actually format kiwibiker to work on a much better structure.

Say Shaun wanted to change a rule, he could very easily go to the MNZ sub forum, and submit a properly structured thread to MNZ (identical to the requirement already in place) it would follow the existing steps outlined above and the thread would be made allowing for submissions in a thread.

If the thread was not allowed Shaun would be told for what reasons to which he could tidy them up and resubmit after a certain amount of time (there could even be an algorithm that scales how long he would have to wait)

The thread could actually be created in a sub-forum viewable to ONLY the MNZ board/committee who could each place their thoughts on the subject before meetings took place

I've been active in a motorsport club here at Canterbury University and we use a similar medium on facebook (I know you have facebook), I designed and built the website.

One day when I work my way up to MNZ I'll even incorporate an online sign up and licensing system that should easily integrate with kiwibiker.

Out of those 24 email adresses on the MNZ page, who do I contact about the webmaster position?

Dave Newell
Current expired MNZ member (Student, I can't afford a license during the semester) Future President of MNZ.
Christchurch, New Zealand
#27005 (with any luck, one day this will be the smallest digit license number by at least 2 orders of magnitude)

Billy

4th August 2012, 17:35

Massive respect here, it's clear you've been in the sport longer than I've been alive, but that first paragraph screams communication problems to me. Far be it from me to suggest that MNZ has internal communication problems, but theoretically I should be able to send an email to asdfgh@motorcyclingnz.co.nz and it should redirect to the admin, who has at least some sort of filtering/forwarding system to the president of the club (or whoever) while this is an extreme case there really ought to be a better medium for people to contact MNZ. We have the technology!

I found How to change a Rule Step 3 states "The proposed change is placed on the website, under proposed rule changes. Submissions are called for." why can't this be incorporated to a medium which is obviously popular?

This is why I suggest a forum, don't be frightened off by the shit storm that is kiwibiker, I stay out of most of it for that reason, and I'm sure right now you can see it happening in this thread, but you can actually format kiwibiker to work on a much better structure.

Say Shaun wanted to change a rule, he could very easily go to the MNZ sub forum, and submit a properly structured thread to MNZ (identical to the requirement already in place) it would follow the existing steps outlined above and the thread would be made allowing for submissions in a thread.

If the thread was not allowed Shaun would be told for what reasons to which he could tidy them up and resubmit after a certain amount of time (there could even be an algorithm that scales how long he would have to wait)

The thread could actually be created in a sub-forum viewable to ONLY the MNZ board/committee who could each place their thoughts on the subject before meetings took place

I've been active in a motorsport club here at Canterbury University and we use a similar medium on facebook (I know you have facebook), I designed and built the website.

One day when I work my way up to MNZ I'll even incorporate an online sign up and licensing system that should easily integrate with kiwibiker.

Out of those 24 email adresses on the MNZ page, who do I contact about the webmaster position?

Dave Newell
Current expired MNZ member (Student, I can't afford a license during the semester) Future President of MNZ.
Christchurch, New Zealand
#27005 (with any luck, one day this will be the smallest digit license number by at least 2 orders of magnitude)

Yip,

There clearly have been communication probs,IE If you send an email to mnzrrc@gmail.com,I will be the only one that sees that email and if I don't pass the info on then nobody else will ever know,Or if you send an email to 2 or more of the address's listed,You probably won't get a reply as both recipients will assume the other has replied,On that basis,I act on everything that comes in immediately so it doesn't get forgotten about (quite simple to do when youve regularly got over a thousand emails in the inbox),Hopefully when the new website is up and running a lot of these issues will be sorted.

The only problem I see with regard to having the forum on one website is,Not everybody and in fact only a small percentage of roadracers dont visiT Kiwibiker,Some dont do facebook and just about everybody fails to go to the MNZ website for anything other than to renew their licence,Hell out of 5500 members its a struggle to get more than 10% to vote when theres an election.

Drew

4th August 2012, 17:55

Dave-

4th August 2012, 17:56

Yip,

There clearly have been communication probs,IE If you send an email to mnzrrc@gmail.com,I will be the only one that sees that email and if I don't pass the info on then nobody else will ever know,Or if you send an email to 2 or more of the address's listed,You probably won't get a reply as both recipients will assume the other has replied,On that basis,I act on everything that comes in immediately so it doesn't get forgotten about (quite simple to do when youve regularly got over a thousand emails in the inbox),Hopefully when the new website is up and running a lot of these issues will be sorted.

The only problem I see with regard to having the forum on one website is,Not everybody and in fact only a small percentage of roadracers dont visiT Kiwibiker,Some dont do facebook and just about everybody fails to go to the MNZ website for anything other than to renew their licence,Hell out of 5500 members its a struggle to get more than 10% to vote when theres an election.

New website? can you elaborate? I'm drafting a thread about how MNZ needs a new website and would be interested in talking to the developer with my ideas, I'll change my thread to reflect this.

So some people don't do kiwibiker, or facebook, well I don't do letters or faxing, and I'm the growing majority, dont tell me a statistically significant number of MNZ license holders don't do facebook or forums, or the internet, or know how to use a computer, so write a letter instead, I simply do not believe it.

You say only a small percentage of road racers do not visit kiwibiker? so a large percentage do? so shouldn't kiwibiker be the perfect medium for putting up a poll?

Either way I find your 2nd paragraph very stubborn and concerningly defeatist, the NZSBK page has 1700 members, the MNZ page has 424, motorcycling canterbury has 549! I'm not saying they're all mnz license holders, but seriously, some marketing, even some information in our direction could provide MNZ with some statistically significant data.

With all due respect MNZ needs to pull finger and start connecting with its members via mediums that aren't obsolete.

Give me another few minutes to wrap up my thread about the new website Billy then post your thoughts.

SWERVE

4th August 2012, 18:33

ellipsis

4th August 2012, 19:56

...a less confrontational medium is all thats reqd...less vitriol and more constructive is always the norm we would prefer, I'm sure, the small town of NZ presents it's own problems, the fact that we all (every one of us) knows what's right and the 2 or 3 degree's of separation that is this country, pervades every thing that we dare to venture into or having some desire to be involved with, always seems somehow to be a red rag to the next persons conception of what is the only way to go...I reckon it's a bigger ask than the average kiwi brain can handle...

Billy

4th August 2012, 20:22

I can say from experience that the system currently used does work. You just have to use some common sense and follow it.
It isnt perfect ....... but what/who is.
I dont see anything wrong with issues being discussed on a public forum......... but it is not the place to get descisions made.
Follow due process............ be prepared to use that "ancient device" called a telephone. Put your case forward....be prepared to answer questions on your reasoning.... be prepared to accept you hadnt thought of everything.... but if your case stacks up also be prepared to have your case actioned.
That way Billy can divide his time between being - Road Race Commissioner - Fairing builder - Fairing designer - Racer - and general "good buggar" (those are the pastimes i know about) into some kind of order that doesnt involve 16+ hr days.
You are a bloody LEGEND mate......... long live the LEGEND

Hahahahahahahaha!! Leg end,So Im just a useless foot now(Or worse groin),Yip your right most days are 16 hours and I'm sure having stayed here for a week and seen what is really expected
of me,Many of them are much longer,You only have to go back to the "road to the NZSBK"Story I wrote last year,To see how much work really gets done here and I can help but notice how quickly the loyalty runs out and yet the same punters still have their hands out for help,Yip as pointed out above,MNZ is less than perfect,BUT if you use the system properly as you and many others that I have dealt with have found out,It works just fine,In fact,The biggest issue facing us as an organisation,Is the fact as I have discovered,Not only do most members not know the rules or protocols,But neither do a large number of the club officials organising the meetings,I am working very hard at changing that and making good progress,Most of them are begging for guidance and have ended up with jobs,Cause they were the only ones who would put their hands up,Take Dave for arguments sake,He can't afford to renew his licence or compete due to his studies,Seems to be really intelligent,Sort of bloke who a club could use to help them,Maybe get to show us just how much better he could make things,But does he???? Not on your Nelly,Much easier to stay at home and bag the hard work others do instead Jeeeezus!who would have thought,

Sorry Dave,Not gonna bother replying to your expertise,Ive got a roadrace champs to organise and a sport to run and none of the area your discussing is part of my commission,I suggest you call Vicky at the office as she is the general manager,Don't be surprised if shes too busy to listen to a non members concerns,Theyve been a staff member down for sometime now,Replacement due to start soon,Let me know when you become President,If you need a hand I might be able too help,Assuming its this lifetime.