Bucket sidecar chassis?

[Pumba]

Right after coming from buckets on the weekend I mentioned to the Mrs that Henk and Rick were out there racing there chair, to which the response was "that sounds like fun, I wouldn't mind giving that a go" which I have interpreted as fuck yea you have my permission and blessing to go forth and build/obtain a chair:wari:

So this got me thinking about chair design etc. and I was wondering if between us we could come up with a fairly standard design/formula/principals for a basic chair that anyone with a few skills could pull together, and put there choice of engine in.

I have some AutoCAD skills (sure I draw stormwater drains for a living, but the principals are the same) and can sketch up some basic details

So people, lay on me your wisdom. Or alternatively direct me to chair to buy (like I have the cash at the moment:brick:) and no I am not interested in the GP100, I have seen that death trap in action.

[Henk]

Buy the GP as a starting point. Main problem with "that death trap" as you so succinctly put it that I could see is that the earles fork on the front has way too many pivot points, weld a bar across the back of the swing arm and it should be a bit better.
Use that as a starting point and see if you can work out what is going to work for you. That's what Rick and I are doing, the one we have now is our first but we are slowly putting ideas together about what might come next, at which stage we'll flick ours on. Will probably take a while though.
The death trap has one thing that we will be going for at some stage, front suspension.

By the way playing skid karts in the wet was an absolute hoot. Thought we were going all the way round on a couple of occasions.

[koba]

The death trap has one thing that we will be going for at some stage, front suspension.


How does it go without it?
I've been building sidecars in my head when drifting off to sleep. I really like the idea of a semi-monocoque construction.

[Henk]

Goes round corners a bit better now that we have a sticky tyre on the front and the wheel is inline with the steering head. Used to shake it's head madly and sledge like a crazy thing. Now we can keep the front inline and drift the rest of it round the place. Stupid fun.

I've been looking at hub center steer setups on the net but can't get my head around them.

Defiantly goes better with air in the sidecar wheel as we discovered yesterday.

[Kickaha]

Find who has Speedpros old outfit and copy it, it would have been one of the best out there I have seen

[Henk]

Pumba

Check out

http://www.minimotoscene.co.uk/forums/content.php?145-The-Original-Technical-Drawings

[Henk]

Find who has Speedpros old outfit and copy it, it would have been one of the best out there I have seen

Couple of guys up here bought it out of Wellington about Easter.
Got it to the track here and it wouldn't play, hope to see them again when they get it sorted, should happen, they were keen enough.

[NOID]

has any body thought of using a scooter front end ? ? im hell keen to have a rip on one

[Pumba]

Pumba

Check out

http://www.minimotoscene.co.uk/forums/content.php?145-The-Original-Technical-Drawings

That is quite impressive set of drawings.

[wildman]

Find who has Speedpros old outfit and copy it, it would have been one of the best out there I have seen

yeah i've got Speedpros old one, had an issue with the ignition and a couple of other things so am giving it the big rebuild. Hub centre steering isn't to hard to sort out, bit expensive with the 14 rose joints on it i've just replaced. My information is that it was built off some LCR drawings and scaled down to suit. Hopefully it wont be to long before it's back out, my rider is employed as a Baptist Pastor now so when it does come out i'll be looking for a new rider.

[Pumba]

yeah i've got Speedpros old one.....

Want to take a whole heap of pictures, preferable with a tape measure:whistle: Otherwise I will have to have a good look next time you are at the track

[Henk]

We won't be at the next meet since Rick is being exiled for a while, we will be A the sept meet though, if you can get the ex Green chair sorted by then maybe Pumba could drive for you, otherwise drag it along anyway. I can think of at least two guys that would pilot for you.
With some luck Cris will have his rig by then and Brenton has his straightened out. When it went straight ahead and I saw Chris bounce into the wall I had some seriously bad moments until he got up.

[Gigglebutton]

yeah i've got Speedpros old one, had an issue with the ignition and a couple of other things so am giving it the big rebuild. Hub centre steering isn't to hard to sort out, bit expensive with the 14 rose joints on it i've just replaced. My information is that it was built off some LCR drawings and scaled down to suit. Hopefully it wont be to long before it's back out, my rider is employed as a Baptist Pastor now so when it does come out i'll be looking for a new rider.

Speedpro/Mike may be keen to drive it for you, he's not riding his bucket at the moment. We had loads of fun on that chair.

[speedpro]

I could still get that thing round a track OK. Hell, I've even got a spare engine for it as well. It was good fun with 20hp, it'll be hilarious with 30hp.

[Pumba]

Hell I am always keen for a go on any chair.

[Pumba]

So I have been doing quite a bit of thinking (I have a feeling that Jess is starting to regret her agreement to this). Wheels and tires? Currently all the newer chairs are running kart rims. Is this the best option? I see a number of the older chairs in pictures are running much larger wheels (I suspect 12 or 13 inches).

My thoughts are that the larger wheels would be be better, but possibly a limited rubber selection, where as kart rims can run sticky kart rubber.

Opinions?

[Henk]

Sticky kart tyres are free from the rubbish bins at kart tracks.
The wheels and stuff are pretty cheap even if you buy new, $200 ish for a new pair of mag rims? I've been tempted not that we need them at the moment but they look cool.

[wildman]

So I have been doing quite a bit of thinking (I have a feeling that Jess is starting to regret her agreement to this). Wheels and tires? Currently all the newer chairs are running kart rims. Is this the best option? I see a number of the older chairs in pictures are running much larger wheels (I suspect 12 or 13 inches).

My thoughts are that the larger wheels would be be better, but possibly a limited rubber selection, where as kart rims can run sticky kart rubber.

Opinions?

Speedpros old one runs 10 inch mini rims and tyres, gives a bit more ground clearance as i found my toes rubbed on the track on the one Henk has. The sidecar i had years ago had 8 inch rims on it, i guess the bigger the rims and tyres the bigger the whole chair seems to be. But then when your 110kg you need a more solider vehicle. If you want to have a look at the sdecar and take some photos pm me it's located in mangere.

[wildman]

I could still get that thing round a track OK. Hell, I've even got a spare engine for it as well. It was good fun with 20hp, it'll be hilarious with 30hp.

I was thinking of building up another engine for it, have a complete bottom end sitting around and know where there are a complete mb50 and mb100 motors, just have to negotiate the price for them a bit lower. We should get together and talk about it at some stage.

[Bert]

After trolling through the attached site; there are some neat examples of some cool sidechair solutions
http://www.minimotoscene.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?60889-I-fancy-building-a-chair-bit-of-advice-and-guidence-required-%29

What's the feel in Auckland from the Karters when they see you guys showing off your chairs ?

given the conversation (page2 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/152929-Auckland-buckets-this-weekend/page2)) is it making likely we will see then comeback?
And whats the likelyhood of some racing (or demo's) as part of the north island series?

[Pumba]

Funnily enough I found the same forums while it was pissing down with rain over the weekend. Looks like the have a cool scene going over there in the UK with the miniature sidecars running similar engines to ours (although it looks like they allow the MX engines).

Looking at there rules I think there maximum dimensions are more or less our minimum dimensions, but I am not sure of that.

As far as the NI serries goes, it is my intention to have a chair up and running by the end of the year (hopefully sooner) and I defiantly intend to bring it along to Tamuranui. Not sure how many other rounds I will be able to afford to do this year though, depends how long I am on secondment with a company vehicle (and tow bar:whistle:).

[Bert]

Funnily enough I found the same forums while it was pissing down with rain over the weekend. Looks like the have a cool scene going over there in the UK with the miniature sidecars running similar engines to ours (although it looks like they allow the MX engines).

Looking at there rules I think there maximum dimensions are more or less our minimum dimensions, but I am not sure of that.

As far as the NI serries goes, it is my intention to have a chair up and running by the end of the year (hopefully sooner) and I defiantly intend to bring it along to Tamuranui. Not sure how many other rounds I will be able to afford to do this year though, depends how long I am on secondment with a company vehicle (and tow bar:whistle:).

From the looks of it they are AM6 50cc engines with big bore kits or stinky four strokes. I was just re-reading the bucket chair rules and doing a spec check myself; a little scaling and bob's ya aunty.

quickly remove that last statement before murphy strikes you...
Tamu-vegas sidecar challenge; something to inspire too.

[Henk]

The comeback has definitely started up here

Currently running

Rick and myself
Brenton and Andrew (albeit with some ignition reliability issues)
Warren and co (also broken at the moment but can't be too hard, they are aiming for Oct meet)

In progress

Chris and Ritchie Lawrence (lots of work to do but aiming for Oct as well)
Cully (started on the hub center steer for his rig, probably a fair way off)
Pumba (god only knows, guy is as unreliable as fuck)

JC has also made noises about building one and Rick and I will probably build an FXR powered in at some stage as we are too bloody lazy to push start and the thought of electric start is appealing, we also may need more power once Chris gets his up and running.

Mel also told Brian to start planning after they took ours for a spin after racing was over Sunday but that may take a while since I think he has to build her two buckets first.

[Bert]

The comeback has definitely started up here

Currently running

Rick and myself
Brenton and Andrew (albeit with some ignition reliability issues)
Warren and co (also broken at the moment but can't be too hard, they are aiming for Oct meet)

In progress

Chris and Ritchie Lawrence (lots of work to do but aiming for Oct as well)
Cully (started on the hub center steer for his rig, probably a fair way off)
Pumba (god only knows, guy is as unreliable as fuck)

JC has also made noises about building one and Rick and I will probably build an FXR powered in at some stage as we are too bloody lazy to push start and the thought of electric start is appealing, we also may need more power once Chris gets his up and running.

Mel also told Brian to start planning after they took ours for a spin after racing was over Sunday but that may take a while since I think he has to build her two buckets first.

nice. very nice.

quick crazyman; dig it out of the haybarn again and slap in that ziffle or (RGV/TF) engine; there's some racing to be had....:yes:

So what are those Lawrence boys building mini LCR or a shorty windle...

This has all the makings of carnage all over again...

[Henk]

Dead keen to get a chair class going at the NI rounds at tracks we can run them, not sure how many rigs Steve wants for a class to run though. I'd go with two but I have a bit of a vested interest. I'll try and talk Rick into dragging ours along anyway just so we can have a play on it at some different tracks, and because I find it more fun than the F4 bike at the moment.

[Bert]

from auckland thread (page2)

..... If you want a challenge and to try some thing to impress maybe look at hub centre steering or a sprung leading link front end. I was talking to a guy who knows as much about sidecar racing as anyone around and he suggested for tracks like Mt Wellington or similar maybe build a shorter rig than the ones we are coming up with and try a front mounted engine, really there are a lot of options to explore with out going outside the rules.
Hope to see you with three wheels down the line.

windle shorty it is then..

[Rick 52]

Dead keen to get a chair class going at the NI rounds at tracks we can run them, not sure how many rigs Steve wants for a class to run though. I'd go with two but I have a bit of a vested interest. I'll try and talk Rick into dragging ours along anyway just so we can have a play on it at some different tracks, and because I find it more fun than the F4 bike at the moment.

Don't need too much talking into taking the rig to NI rounds, Looking forward to new tracks :yes: Its so much mad fun driving the bloody things!!

[Henk]

Rick, can you get the lap times for the chair races off Mary? I'm keen to see how we went and Andrew also wants to see how far behind they were.

Also, the thought of driving the chair over the blind left at toke has me both intrigued and a little afraid

[Pumba]

......Pumba (god only knows, guy is as unreliable as fuck)......

:weep::weep:

Stop picking on me. It is the courier service that is proving a little slow at the moment:crazy:

[Moooools]

The comeback has definitely started up here

Currently running

Rick and myself
Brenton and Andrew (albeit with some ignition reliability issues)
Warren and co (also broken at the moment but can't be too hard, they are aiming for Oct meet)

In progress

Chris and Ritchie Lawrence (lots of work to do but aiming for Oct as well)
Cully (started on the hub center steer for his rig, probably a fair way off)
Pumba (god only knows, guy is as unreliable as fuck)

JC has also made noises about building one and Rick and I will probably build an FXR powered in at some stage as we are too bloody lazy to push start and the thought of electric start is appealing, we also may need more power once Chris gets his up and running.

Mel also told Brian to start planning after they took ours for a spin after racing was over Sunday but that may take a while since I think he has to build her two buckets first.

Shit there are a fair few coming along. Definitely no point bending the rules if you could get that many to the track.
Time to get to CAD I think.

Probably will be a summer project though. Too much racecar at the moment.

[Gazzza]

Just throwing this out there but with all the interest at the moment with the chairs I was thinking there might be some people out there who are keen but just have no idea what's involved or were to start... I have built a couple including the one Rick and Henk now have so if anyone would like to know more I'm more than happy for people to pop in and go over the blue rig i have here, it's basically he same design as the yellow rig and also the one Chris and Richie are finishing, or send me an email and I can send through pics. I also have a pretty comprehensive list of parts required and prices.
Hopefully next year will see a real resurgence of the three wheelers.

[Pumba]

Awesome offer Gazza.

I must say you should feel very proud, as your efforts have given a class that was dead a bloody good shove in the right direction. My bank manager will not thank you, but fuck it you only live once and I certly will:2thumbsup

You need to come away to the North Island rounds, as I think I (and probably a few others) owe you a beer or two.

[Henk]

What is this beer of which you speak?

[Gazzza]

Thanks Pumba, really appreciate the comments. Just glad to see the interest back in the chairs, I'd love to see a whole grid full like back in the day. If Rick and Henk drag their chair along, and I can find transport, I'm keen to do any away meets as well.
Sorry about the bank manager but I'm sure once you start sliding around the bottom sweeper And try to pass something roughly 3/4's the width of the track it will be worth it :)

[Pumba]

What is this beer of which you speak?

Well in my personal experience is an alcoholic carbonated fluid and is generally what is consumed immediately once racing for the day has finished, and normally before other tasty alcoholic fluids are brought out.

[Henk]

Ah right, it's that weak fizzy stuff that acts as a prelude to port.

[Buckets4Me]

24-2-7 Construction of Sidecars:
Miniature road race sidecars are to be constructed in accordance with the following:
24-2-7-1 Wheel Track:
This shall be minimum of 650mm, maximum 1120mm. The front and rear wheels must
not be more than 70mm out of alignment of a straight line at right angles to the rear axle.
All measurements are taken at wheel centrelines.
24-2-7-2 Wheel Base:
Rear axle centre to front axle centre - min. 1300mm, max. 2000mm.The sidecar wheel
axle shall be between the rear wheel axle and the middle point of the wheelbase.
24-2-7-3 Basic Dimensions:
No part of the construction shall protrude more than 100mm outward from the outside
face of the sidecar tyre. No part of the construction shall protrude more than 550mm
outward from the centre of the rear tyre
Only streamlining and its support brackets shall protrude in front of the front tyre.
There must be a minimum of 75mm ground clearance when the sidecar is loaded with
driver and passenger in normal racing positions and all sumps and petrol, oil and water
tanks, radiators and associated piping must be adequately protected underneath by at least
14g steel or 10g aluminium guards if they come within 90mm of the ground.
24-2-7-4 Streamlining:
No part of the streamlining shall protrude more than 550mm forward from the front of the
front tyre. Care must be taken that the steering is not affected by the fairings. The sidecar
wheel, except for the outside face, shall be adequately covered above deck level.
24-2-7-5 The Steward of the meeting in conjunction with the Machine Examiner, may disqualify
any sidecar from the competition where the construction of the machine is such that it
could prove an unnecessary hazard to other competitors or other persons. This
disqualification may take place despite the fact that the specifications are in every other
respect, within the rules.

[wildman]

:weep::weep:

Stop picking on me. It is the courier service that is proving a little slow at the moment:crazy:

Yep it certainly is, sorry bout the hold up Pumba i'll give him a wind up again this weekend. I'll put you out on my one next month to make up for it.:facepalm:

[Henk]

Yep it certainly is, sorry bout the hold up Pumba i'll give him a wind up again this weekend. I'll put you out on my one next month to make up for it.:facepalm:

From that I gather you have it all going again, from what I've seen in the past couple of days we are looking damn good for four rigs on the line line next month. :banana:

[wildman]

From that I gather you have it all going again, from what I've seen in the past couple of days we are looking damn good for four rigs on the line line next month. :banana:


It's back together but still has a mind of it's own. We'll be there next meeting, need to give you guys some passing practice for labour weekend. Would be keen to take sidecar to other tracks next year as well. Will need all the practice we can get for racing the big one:rofl:

[Gazzza]

The four rigs would include Warren, yes? Has anyone heard from him lately? I only saw the rig briefly as he was passing by, looked bloody impressive, I'm hoping we see more than just a dot on the horizon at the track as he flies past. Would be good to catch up again, haven't seen him for some time.

[crazy man]

nice. very nice.

quick crazyman; dig it out of the haybarn again and slap in that ziffle or (RGV/TF) engine; there's some racing to be had....:yes:

So what are those Lawrence boys building mini LCR or a shorty windle...

This has all the makings of carnage all over again...l want to give them some chance

[Bert]

possible 5 rigs..

its that enough to hold a GP title race??

maybe 16th Feb at minefield???? just planting a seed....:corn:

[Henk]

I thought it was six for a GP but can't find it in the rule book now, would mean the full license though and I'm not sure how many up here would be prepared to drop $200'per rig for a license for one race.

[Bert]

I thought it was six for a GP but can't find it in the rule book now, would mean the full license though and I'm not sure how many up here would be prepared to drop $200'per rig for a license for one race.

You might be right actually (6 not 5).

So when it comes down to it; cost of the license is the issue for not actually holding a nz title race??? :brick:

Maybe a request to MNZ is needed (for running under club license) as this should fall under the fostering and nurturing of motorcycle sports. :killingme

[crazy man]

always used to be 6 . yes 200 is a bit much . maybe l just made some medals and get our own trofy and just do it between are selfs whats the diffients.

[Bert]

always used to be 6 . yes 200 is a bit much . maybe l just made some medals and get our own trofy and just do it between are selfs whats the diffients.

while I don't disagree entirely; a workable solution needs to be found with our governing body.

The basic premises of the changes made (read: club and national license); was to get more membership and also provide a little more $$ to enable further support. baby and bath water blabla

but there isn't currently enough to worry about it at the mo...

[Dutchee]

I thought it was six for a GP but can't find it in the rule book now, would mean the full license though and I'm not sure how many up here would be prepared to drop $200'per rig for a license for one race.

4.10.8 At closing date for entries, if a minimum of 6 valid paid entries have not been received then the championship class will not run for that year provided that if the event is part of a series then this will apply only to that round.

[Rick 52]

Rick, can you get the lap times for the chair races off Mary? I'm keen to see how we went and Andrew also wants to see how far behind they were.

Also, the thought of driving the chair over the blind left at toke has me both intrigued and a little afraid

Got some lap times from Mary..


Race 2 your best time was ............. (drum rolling) .......... 35.780 woohooo!!!!!!

[Gazzza]

I won't ask what our best lap time was, it may have been the one we pushed the chair over the line for the chequered flag... :(

[Henk]

Got some lap times from Mary..


Race 2 your best time was ............. (drum rolling) .......... 35.780 woohooo!!!!!!

Sweet, does that mean we can enter the trike in B grade?

[Rick 52]

Haha sorry Gazza no lap times from your rig but it was running rough ..

Bgrade shit Henk is this thing not dodgy enough ?? :2thumbsup

[koba]

Got some lap times from Mary..


Race 2 your best time was ............. (drum rolling) .......... 35.780 woohooo!!!!!!

How about some context for us out of townies?

What's a good A grade lap time, what's a B grade lap time?

[Dutchee]

How about some context for us out of townies?

What's a good A grade lap time, what's a B grade lap time?

record is about 29. 34 you can move to A grade, 32 you willa be kicked into A. 36 you can be in C grade.
f5 who cares, but we got some crap times last month in th first race, but had a huge amount of laughs.

[Henk]

record is about 29. 34 you can move to A grade, 32 you willa be kicked into A. 36 you can be in C grade.
f5 who cares, but we got some crap times last month in th first race, but had a huge amount of laughs.

I usually manage mid to low 32s to mid 31s. You'll be a couple of seconds faster :)

[Henk]

Haha sorry Gazza no lap times from your rig but it was running rough ..

Bgrade shit Henk is this thing not dodgy enough ?? :2thumbsup

What could possibly go wrong? We should get someone to follow us around with a helmet cam at some stage though if that doesn't sound too dodgy.

[Henk]

Second thoughts maybe we should try and go a bit faster and head straight to A grade, B grade is scary.

[Dutchee]

I usually manage mid to low 32s to mid 31s. You'll be a couple of seconds faster :)

Obviously quoting the wrong person, as I'm lucky to get in the high 30s (as in 38, 39)

[wildman]

So I have been doing quite a bit of thinking (I have a feeling that Jess is starting to regret her agreement to this). Wheels and tires? Currently all the newer chairs are running kart rims. Is this the best option? I see a number of the older chairs in pictures are running much larger wheels (I suspect 12 or 13 inches).

My thoughts are that the larger wheels would be be better, but possibly a limited rubber selection, where as kart rims can run sticky kart rubber.

Opinions?

Hey Pumba, seen photos of your sidecar:killingme it's now sitting on my mates front lawn in Marton. Only took two months to get there from Fielding, at this rate you should get it by june next year. That will give you plenty of time to save up for some new 10 inch mini tyres, none of those roller skate wheels and tyres like Rick and Henks and Gazzza's ones . It's got real wheels and tyres, will PM you latter hopefully with photos.

[Pumba]

Hey Pumba, seen photos of your sidecar:killingme it's now sitting on my mates front lawn in Marton. Only took two months to get there from Fielding, at this rate you should get it by june next year. That will give you plenty of time to save up for some new 10 inch mini tyres, none of those roller skate wheels and tyres like Rick and Henks and Gazzza's ones . It's got real wheels and tyres, will PM you latter hopefully with photos.

Good things take time:bleh:

Awsome mate lok foward to some photos:niceone:

Got to be honest, to carry my arse around the bigger the wheels the better

[Buckets4Me]

record is about 29. 34 you can move to A grade, 32 you willa be kicked into A. 36 you can be in C grade.
f5 who cares, but we got some crap times last month in th first race, but had a huge amount of laughs.

and I think Karl Morgan did flat 27's in a rotax kart :banana: (he was beaten by the young girl owner doing 26 somthings and gave up when he nearly threw it away on the hairpin)

[Henk]

So who would be keen for a 30 lap (or something) endurance race on the Saturday of the two hour?

[koba]

So who would be keen for a 30 lap (or something) endurance race on the Saturday of the two hour?

I.

Tencharacters.

[crazy man]

So who would be keen for a 30 lap (or something) endurance race on the Saturday of the two hour?so were can l get a cheap tf100 conrod kit for my sidecar

[Henk]

so were can l get a cheap tf100 conrod kit for my sidecar

That doesn't sound good. Have a chat to TZ350 from the ESE thread, or speed pro, they may be able to help

[Henk]

I.

Tencharacters.

Brenton's usual swinger won't be at the two hour (I think) pm gazzza and see if he needs a volunteer for the weekend.

[Rick 52]

So who would be keen for a 30 lap (or something) endurance race on the Saturday of the two hour?

Mmm might need to lift them bars or I will be looking up at the sun for a week !! @crickneck