Can 3 bikes get clocked by radar?

[Twosixty]

Heard yesterday that if a group of three bikes riding close together probably won't get pinged by the cops.

I know of two bikes getting tickets at the same time for slightly different speeds but is that the extent of the radars capabilities - two different targets?

[GrayWolf]

Heard yesterday that if a group of three bikes riding close together probably won't get pinged by the cops.

I know of two bikes getting tickets at the same time for slightly different speeds but is that the extent of the radars capabilities - two different targets?

Not sure how 'fast' the modern radar is, but from what I understand the 'laser' is instantaneous... so could clock three targets within a couple of seconds

[Asher]

I had always thought that a whole group of riders could get done for speeding at the same time as its a fair assumption they were all travelling at the same speed.
Stopping them all would be the difficult part.

[FJRider]

Heard yesterday that if a group of three bikes riding close together probably won't get pinged by the cops.

I know of two bikes getting tickets at the same time for slightly different speeds but is that the extent of the radars capabilities - two different targets?

Most often ... the whole group would be issued an infringement notice for exceeding the posted speed limit.

If the speed of the group was excessive ... (over 120 km's :innocent:) the officer may include a speed on the notice. If the riders/drivers concerned wish to dispute it ... they CAN ... in court. With the officer giving his version of events ... hoping the judge agrees.

The really nasty officer may even issue a ticket for racing. Instant court case ... and possibly instant 28 days walking ....

[nodrog]

....The really nasty officer may even issue a ticket for racing. Instant court case ... and possibly instant 28 days walking ....

Thats what happens around these parts.

[SMOKEU]

That's why when riding in groups if one rider gets rolled then the other ones should take off, and the victim should declare no knowledge of the other riders details.

[darkwolf]

The old - "I don't need to out run the cop, I just need to out run you?" As I understand it, the units themselves only have the ability to pick up two speeds. However, as has been said above, it wouldn't surprise me to find that there is an ability for the police to prove that the bikes were travelling at the same speed if it was taken to court.

[Ender EnZed]

A cop doesn't need to "prove" how fast you were going to give you a ticket. If he thinks you were speeding and he wants to give you a ticket then he'll give you a ticket. It doesn't matter who his radar actually picked up.

In practice, if one bike pulls over and the other/s keep going then the cop will have to choose who to go after. Moral of the story: if your mate's pulling over, keep riding.

[Akzle]

higihilly unlikerly.
radar "soaks" an area of the road, and when signal comes back faster than it should, goes beep. could be anyone "in the picture"

laser on the other hand, pings a point about the size of a 10c coin (targeted at a numberplate, ie) so while in theory it is possible to clock 3 speeding targets with a laser, would be a damn steady hand and good eye, but.

[red mermaid]

Really?

You should stick to posting about things you know about, cause what you have stated below about Laser is incorrect.




laser on the other hand, pings a point about the size of a 10c coin (targeted at a numberplate, ie) so while in theory it is possible to clock 3 speeding targets with a laser, would be a damn steady hand and good eye, but.

[bsasuper]

A cop doesn't need to "prove" how fast you were going to give you a ticket. If he thinks you were speeding and he wants to give you a ticket then he'll give you a ticket. It doesn't matter who his radar actually picked up.

In practice, if one bike pulls over and the other/s keep going then the cop will have to choose who to go after. Moral of the story: if your mate's pulling over, keep riding.

Actually he does have to prove how fast you were going, as the court system is based on facts and not assumptions, which is what I told a nice officer who then decided not to give me a ticket but a good telling off instead.

[Akzle]

Really?

You should stick to posting about things you know about, cause what you have stated below about Laser is incorrect.

is it. how so?
all well and good to say i'm wrong, but it goes down better with some kind of proof...

[red mermaid]

I know because I use the machines but Im going to leave it up to you to spread your stories and thereby confuse everyone.

[Akzle]

I know because I use the machines but Im going to leave it up to you to spread your stories and thereby confuse everyone.

no please, enlighten us all.

[skippa1]

Most often ... the whole group would be issued an infringement notice for exceeding the posted speed limit.

....

only if the whole group stops or is identified...:pinch:

[onearmedbandit]

From what I've read the 'cone' of the laser can be up to 3ft wide.

[avgas]

Who says lazer is a single point ;)

Without knowing the police application, the military one picks up and logs a target within something like 3/10th of a second. So you could do all three in less than 1 second - and their application is automated so no need to move the hand. Was supposed to replace the old radar system in the likes of the phalanx - don't know where its implemented.

But once again, I have no idea what the police spec'd ones are. Suspect they aren't as high tech.

[Muppet]

higihilly unlikerly.
radar "soaks" an area of the road, and when signal comes back faster than it should, goes beep. could be anyone "in the picture"

laser on the other hand, pings a point about the size of a 10c coin (targeted at a numberplate, ie) so while in theory it is possible to clock 3 speeding targets with a laser, would be a damn steady hand and good eye, but.

This is quite entertaining watching all you armchair experts/bush lawyers talk about something you a) aren't trained to use b) aren't certified to use and c) have no experience in using.

Reminds me of another loud mouth - Murray Deaker who sits on his ass making a living out of criticising professional rugby players.

[Muppet]

Who says lazer is a single point ;)

Without knowing the police application, the military one picks up and logs a target within something like 3/10th of a second. So you could do all three in less than 1 second - and their application is automated so no need to move the hand. Was supposed to replace the old radar system in the likes of the phalanx - don't know where its implemented.

But once again, I have no idea what the police spec'd ones are. Suspect they aren't as high tech.

At last an honest person!

[avgas]

At last an honest person!
Happy to help.
Always wondered about these fan-dangled trajectory laser targeting systems the cops use. Seem so basic compared to everyone else's systems. But never played with one myself - so could be that I am not giving it enough credit.
May be the cops should get one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1K17_Szhatie - Even though it doesn't really work, I wonder if anyone would go speeding past it?

[CookMySock]

This is quite entertaining watching all you armchair experts/bush lawyers talk about something you a) aren't trained to use b) aren't certified to use and c) have no experience in using.Also quite entertaining to watch all the put-downs on no basis whatsoever.

[Akzle]

so.. so far no-one's come forward to say how this conflanged technological bamboozelry DOES work...

[davereid]

This has been pretty well discussed elsewhere on KB. But essentially, the doppler shift radar used by police for speed detection, cannot identify its target.

Operators have to guess which vehicle is the target. This is easy if there is only one vehicle in the beam, but much more difficult if there are multiple targets. There may even be targets that the operator is unaware of.

For example a motorcycle made of kevlar, plastic and aluminium may be very close to an operator but still have a minuscule radar reflection compared to the Scania Truck half a km behind it.

Multiple vehicles also cause the radar to have to process and evaluate all the "sum and difference" speeds between all the vehicles, and if there are potential reflective surfaces, it has to consider cosine effect of those as well.

Lots of speed camera tickets were thrown out as the radar couldn't cope - police claim this is now sorted, although they denied there was a problem in the first place, so that claim must be treated with caution.

I would always defend a ticket given when there are clearly other vehicles in the radar beam, doppler radar should not be used in this manner, its simply not up to it.

[Akzle]

This has been pretty well discussed elsewhere on KB. But essentially, the doppler shift radar used by police for speed detection, cannot identify its target.
so pretty much ->


radar "soaks" an area of the road, and when signal comes back faster than it should, goes beep. could be anyone "in the picture"

but what about these bears with lasers in their eyes? and jesus riding a velociraptor?

[rastuscat]

This has been pretty well discussed elsewhere on KB. But essentially, the doppler shift radar used by police for speed detection, cannot identify its target.

Operators have to guess which vehicle is the target. This is easy if there is only one vehicle in the beam, but much more difficult if there are multiple targets. There may even be targets that the operator is unaware of.

For example a motorcycle made of kevlar, plastic and aluminium may be very close to an operator but still have a minuscule radar reflection compared to the Scania Truck half a km behind it.

Multiple vehicles also cause the radar to have to process and evaluate all the "sum and difference" speeds between all the vehicles, and if there are potential reflective surfaces, it has to consider cosine effect of those as well.

Lots of speed camera tickets were thrown out as the radar couldn't cope - police claim this is now sorted, although they denied there was a problem in the first place, so that claim must be treated with caution.

I would always defend a ticket given when there are clearly other vehicles in the radar beam, doppler radar should not be used in this manner, its simply not up to it.

Agreed, if the radar is used by an inexperienced officer.

Imagine this. I see a car coming toward my radar troll car. The Stalker says that car is doing 95, and it visually appears to be maintaining a steady speed. Suddently a bike comes out of the sight picture, overtaking the car. The radar flashes out 123. What I am seeing is a car travelling at a steady speed, and a bike taking a relative flyer down the outside.

If I had locked the 123, would it be unsafe to link it to the bike? Given the tracking history outlined? The only other possibility is that the car was doing 123, and if so, the bike was going even faster, as it was clearly ovtertaking.

Interesting discussion this.

Always ends in donuts though.

[onearmedbandit]

If I had locked the 123, would it be unsafe to link it to the bike? Given the tracking history outlined? The only other possibility is that the car was doing 123, and if so, the bike was going even faster, as it was clearly ovtertaking.

Interesting discussion this.

Always ends in donuts though.

Nail the cager, it's always their fault.

[FJRider]

only if the whole group stops or is identified...:pinch:

If the fucking cop is parked up ahead of you ... lights fashing ... as they like to do ... and signal ALL of you to stop. Anyone that tries to continue ... will be the number one target, adding failing to stop to the list of charges.

Then it's licences please people ...

[FJRider]

Really?

You should stick to posting about things you know about.

But he wouldn't be on the forums ... AT ALL then ... :eek5:

Oh wait ... as you were ... ;)

[scumdog]

so.. so far no-one's come forward to say how this conflanged technological bamboozelry DOES work...

I COULD.
But it would ruin the fun.....;)

[FJRider]

... Always ends in donuts though.

Donuts for you .... :angry2::angry2::angry2: for us ... such is life ...

[Akzle]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/10/17/99658bd0-69a6-4dd4-a87c-46ac16718752.jpg
http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/1242Holy_Shit535.jpg

as i was saying.

[skippa1]

If the fucking cop is parked up ahead of you ... lights fashing ... as they like to do ... and signal ALL of you to stop. Anyone that tries to continue ... will be the number one target, adding failing to stop to the list of charges.

Then it's licences please people ...
you really sure about what youre saying cause I know different:blink:

[FJRider]

you really sure about what youre saying cause I know different:blink:

Down here in the wide open motorway free part of the southern paradise I live in ... in an effort to conserve fuel ... and their sanity ... most officers DO park up and wait (on slow days) for their "clients" to appear. Often there is no turn-off points so as to escape their attention.
Should the speeders turn around ... the cop in the previous town will cater to their request for paperwork.


They may do things differently in dorkland ... lucky you.

[skippa1]

Down here in the wide open motorway free part of the southern paradise I live in ... in an effort to conserve fuel and their sanity ... most officers DO park up and wait for their "clients" to appear. Often there is no turn-off points to escape their attention. Should they turn around ... the cop in the previous tow will cater to their request for paperwork.


They may do things differently in dorkland ... lucky you.

never pays to assume too much fella. Only been in Auckland for 6 months, I was living in Nelson and was on my way to Greymouth..... and dont worry I have travelled extensively all over NZ on a bike, but mostly in the South.....I have plenty of experience in the "Southern Paradise":blink:

[FJRider]

never pays to assume too much fella. Only been in Auckland for 6 months, I was living in Nelson and was on my way to Greymouth..... and dont worry I have travelled extensively all over NZ on a bike, but mostly in the South.....I have plenty of experience in the "Southern Paradise":blink:

I've been part of at least three groups in which ALL of us were stopped and details checked. On two of those occasions ... the notice of infringement was issued. Exceeding the speed limit ($35 I think) but as we were going a tad faster than that :innocent: we hadn't the inclination to argue.

One also warned us of three other points an officer was waiting .... (yeah right we thought) and they were ... and we waved as we rode by. On the speed limit.

Just because you have not encountered it ... doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As I said ... lucky you.

[skippa1]

I've been part of at least three groups in which ALL of us were stopped and details checked. On two of those occasions ... the notice of infringement was issued. Exceeding the speed limit ($35 I think) but as we were going a tad faster than that :innocent: we hadn't the inclination to argue.

One also warned us of three other points an officer was waiting .... (yeah right we thought) and they were ... and we waved as we rode by. On the speed limit.

Just because you have not encountered it ... doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As I said ... lucky you.
annnnddd....just because it happened to you, doesnt mean it always happens, I have had three occassions (coincidence? that were exactly the opposite, that I will not go into for fear of incriminating myself).

[FJRider]

annnnddd....just because it happened to you, doesnt mean it always happens, I have had three occassions (coincidence? that were exactly the opposite, that I will not go into for fear of incriminating myself).

People often speed and not get tickets ... and no certainty they ever will. The likelyhood they will be ... increases each passing year.

However ... the question in the original post in this thread was ... CAN THEY ... ??? The answer is most definitly yes ... in some circumstances it would be difficult for them ... granted. (Location ... location)

However ... in some circumstances they can and will. If that is their option ... their discretion is applied to.

As I said ... lucky you ...

[skippa1]

As I said ... lucky you ...

you make your own luck....anyway, back to the OP.........in terms of the radar gettin them, there are plenty of myths out there, my understanding is that it is not as specific or accurate as laser, there isnt much beating laser but to nail individuals in a group would be pretty hard. My experience would say that the cop will generally see a bird in the hand as better than a bunch in a bush and it is pretty hard to pull over a group if they dont want to be caught.

[FJRider]

you make your own luck....anyway, back to the OP.........in terms of the radar gettin them.

If three or more bikes travelling in a group, attract the attention of the law enforcers by the speed shown on the police radar .... I would say police reaction/intention would be to stop them for a chat. (not usually about old times sadly) If the radar showed they were all travelling at the same (or near) speed ... which was over the posted limit ... stopping them all may be an option.

It is not necessery to have a locked on speed for each rider to get a ticket. (the word of the officer in court is enough ... eh)

The odds of a speeding group being stopped as a group is low ... some officers can't be bothered.

Others ... however ....

Any that say they don't or won't ... may be in for a supprise.

[skippa1]

If three or more bikes travelling in a group, attract the attention of the law enforcers by the speed shown on the police radar .... I would say police reaction/intention would be to stop them for a chat. (not usually about old times sadly) If the radar showed they were all travelling at the same (or near) speed ... which was over the posted limit ... stopping them all may be an option.

It is not necessery to have a locked on speed for each rider to get a ticket. (the word of the officer in court is enough ... eh)

The odds of a speeding group being stopped as a group is low ... some officers can't be bothered.

Others ... however ....

Any that say they don't or won't ... may be in for a supprise.

Shit I thought we had finished....obviously not.Put aside what the intention of the police or the group is and look at the practicalities. 1 x cop+3 x bikes = 4 involved parties. Whilst stopping them all may be an option open to the police as you quite rightly state, the actual practiclity may be quite different as I quite rightly state. There are variables that work in all parties favour,

The officers ability to make 3 bikes stop
The riders intention to carry out the officers wish for them to stop
Whether the officer can be bothered
Whether the riders can be bothered
Whether the roading network supports flight
Whether the rider can control their steed in flight
Whether the aid can be mustered by the officer from his supporting team to intercept
etc, etc, etc


In other words, you make your own luck. You spin the wheel and take your chances, just like the intersection advert. You may choose to spin, or you may choose to stop. Everyone has a choice.
In saying all this, I am not saying condone flight, just sayin

[avgas]

Did a bit of research on the cops lazers. Seem pretty low key stuff. While I think it could be possible to record 3 bikes, I personally can't see a cop doing it.
Easier to do one at a time. Spread the budget over all three through the month.

[SMOKEU]

If the fucking cop is parked up ahead of you ... lights fashing ... as they like to do ... and signal ALL of you to stop. Anyone that tries to continue ... will be the number one target, adding failing to stop to the list of charges.

Then it's licences please people ...

Then the cop has to prove in court that you intentionally failed to stop. How was each rider know that they were meant to stop?

[avgas]

Then the cop has to prove in court that you intentionally failed to stop. How was each rider know that they were meant to stop?
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/about-riding/receiving-signals.html
They would have to have passed this test even on learners......

[SMOKEU]

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/about-riding/receiving-signals.html
They would have to have passed this test even on learners......

If it's one cop on the side of the road waving out to 3 riders, how does the cop then prove in court that one particular rider failed to stop, especially if one or more riders does decide to stop?

And if the cop goes up behind a group of riders with their red and blue flashing lights, then technically only the rider at the back has to stop since the cop car isn't directly behind the first 2 riders. So pretty much as long as they don't get your tag, and you don't bin it, and your mates don't rat you out, and you go down a side road before the cop coming the other way manages to get you, then you're fine. I remember seeing a thread on here a couple of years ago regarding that sort of thing.

[FJRider]

Then the cop has to prove in court that you intentionally failed to stop. How was each rider know that they were meant to stop?

Apart from the fact you had to run over his foot to pass ... Its you that has to "prove" you didnt know.

As I recall ... you have to stop when signaled to do so by a police officer. If he says (in court) he did ... Guess who gets believed ...

[scumdog]

If it's one cop on the side of the road waving out to 3 riders, how does the cop then prove in court that one particular rider failed to stop, especially if one or more riders does decide to stop?

And if the cop goes up behind a group of riders with their red and blue flashing lights, then technically only the rider at the back has to stop since the cop car isn't directly behind the first 2 riders. So pretty much as long as they don't get your tag, and you don't bin it, and your mates don't rat you out, and you go down a side road before the cop coming the other way manages to get you, then you're fine. I remember seeing a thread on here a couple of years ago regarding that sort of thing.


A shit load of 'if's there sonny - ya can't depend on ifs...;)

[Road kill]

Actually he does have to prove how fast you were going, as the court system is based on facts and not assumptions, which is what I told a nice officer who then decided not to give me a ticket but a good telling off instead.

I've had the same discussion with the same results.
Plucks you out of a long line of cars an then tries to convince you that you were speeding.
Watched him from 100 yards up the road over the next 10-15 minites while he tried the same thing on another two riders with seemingly the same results.
Never seemed to interested in the 200 cars that drove past,,all of them,,that like me,,,were speeding.

[Ender EnZed]

And if the cop goes up behind a group of riders with their red and blue flashing lights, then technically only the rider at the back has to stop since the cop car isn't directly behind the first 2 riders. So pretty much as long as they don't get your tag, and you don't bin it, and your mates don't rat you out, and you go down a side road before the cop coming the other way manages to get you, then you're fine. I remember seeing a thread on here a couple of years ago regarding that sort of thing.

This part is simple enough.


If it's one cop on the side of the road waving out to 3 riders, how does the cop then prove in court that one particular rider failed to stop, especially if one or more riders does decide to stop?

The problem here is that he won't be standing on the side of the road, he'll be standing in the middle. Getting past a cop that has to jump out of your way is a pretty clear cut runner, you can't really feign ingorance as to who he was or wasn't signalling to stop.

[Hans]

Having spent a year or few operating a radar or two, I could probably shine a bit of light on the inherent limitations of a ground based, stripped to the basics, doppler radar. The problem is that the list of limitations is so long that an afternoon's worth of lecturing wouldn't cover it. It comes down to the conditions for obtaining a valid result being so narrow, that it's almost impractical. If you have questions, ask away...

[avgas]

If it's one cop on the side of the road waving out to 3 riders, how does the cop then prove in court that one particular rider failed to stop, especially if one or more riders does decide to stop?

And if the cop goes up behind a group of riders with their red and blue flashing lights, then technically only the rider at the back has to stop since the cop car isn't directly behind the first 2 riders. So pretty much as long as they don't get your tag, and you don't bin it, and your mates don't rat you out, and you go down a side road before the cop coming the other way manages to get you, then you're fine. I remember seeing a thread on here a couple of years ago regarding that sort of thing.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zH35WO_toVg/TB122roV15I/AAAAAAAAAkM/qmYAvRFOgoc/s400/ist2_4423286-police-traffic-stop.jpg
Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go directly to jail.

You have to follow this hand signal when they indicate it towards you. Regardless of how many there are of you. However that is all you legally required to do.

[Akzle]

Having spent a year or few operating a radar or two, I could probably shine a bit of light on the inherent limitations of a ground based, stripped to the basics, doppler radar. The problem is that the list of limitations is so long that an afternoon's worth of lecturing wouldn't cover it. It comes down to the conditions for obtaining a valid result being so narrow, that it's almost impractical. If you have questions, ask away...

was i wrong? (somewhere near page 1)

[rastuscat]

was i wrong? (somewhere near page 1)

Even if you're right you are still AZKLE, and your lack of credibility defeats your argument. :killingme

[Hans]

higihilly unlikerly.
radar "soaks" an area of the road, and when signal comes back faster than it should, goes beep. could be anyone "in the picture"

laser on the other hand, pings a point about the size of a 10c coin (targeted at a numberplate, ie) so while in theory it is possible to clock 3 speeding targets with a laser, would be a damn steady hand and good eye, but.

Close to accurate re the radar. Far from correct on the laser. Laser beams diverge with increasing distance, so while you may get a 10c coin sized beam at say ten meters, the painted area will be much larger at 200 meters. Not even talking about atmospheric conditions like haze and especially rain.

[Hans]

All I can say is, that in my opinion about half the cops I see around me aren't even capable of grasping the basic concepts you need to understand if you want to become a half decent radar operator (we're talking at least a year's worth of study here).

[FJRider]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zH35WO_toVg/TB122roV15I/AAAAAAAAAkM/qmYAvRFOgoc/s400/ist2_4423286-police-traffic-stop.jpg
Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go directly to jail.

You have to follow this hand signal when they indicate it towards you. Regardless of how many there are of you. However that is all you legally required to do.

So ... he is NOT wanting to "High Five" us ... ??? :eek5:

[FJRider]

All I can say is, that in my opinion about half the cops I see around me aren't even capable of grasping the basic concepts you need to understand if you want to become a half decent radar operator (we're talking at least a year's worth of study here).

Thats why they have a quota system silly ... accurate readings aren't important ... money in the donut jar is what counts ...

[rastuscat]

All I can say is, that in my opinion about half the cops I see around me aren't even capable of grasping the basic concepts you need to understand if you want to become a half decent radar operator (we're talking at least a year's worth of study here).

Sad to have to agree, but you're right. The standard of instruction has decayed over the years. Sadly, new graduates get rushed through the absolute basics, then are expected to be experts.

Cosine angle effect would escape most these days, as would Doppler shift. Tracking history just doesn't get the attention it should.

Harrumph.

[FJRider]

Even if you're right you are still AZKLE, and your lack of credibility defeats your argument. :killingme

Carefull fella .. he might post another pic of a male displaying his genitals ... it seems to be his "thing" ...

[rastuscat]

Thats why they have a quota system silly ... accurate readings aren't important ... money in the donut jar is what counts ...

Repeat.

If there was a quota I could fill it everyday without even turning a radar or laser on. I reckon I could fill a quota with simple indicating tickets, stop sign tickets, lots that are less drama and are more lucrative than speed tickets.

Tell, me, how far can you ride without seeing and obscured number plate? Easy to prove, worth lots, but hardly ever written.

The donut jar doesn't get funded from fines. It's from

Still, never let the facts get in the way of a good grizzle. Come on FJR, you can do better than that.

[Hans]

Sad to have to agree, but you're right. The standard of instruction has decayed over the years. Sadly, new graduates get rushed through the absolute basics, then are expected to be experts.

Cosine angle effect would escape most these days, as would Doppler shift. Tracking history just doesn't get the attention it should.

Harrumph.

Thank you. Cosine is not much of an issue unless the radar is moving anyway, until then it helps the person being tracked. More like things that creep into badly surpressed side lobes etc... About the cosine: What you really need is a DGPS based system to tell the radar it's own speed. Then we'd be fucked. Until then it's fairly easy to explain to the judge, why the ticket shouldn't stand.

[FJRider]

Still, never let the facts get in the way of a good grizzle. Come on FJR, you can do better than that.

I usually try to have an element of truth in my troll's ... but it's been a long day.

Same for you I guess .... ???

[rastuscat]

I usually try to have an element of truth in my troll's ... but it's been a long day.

Same for you I guess .... ???

Yup, always trolling for a reaction late in the day to set up my evenings entertainment ;)

Thanks for the opportunity to bite ;):wacko:;)

[Akzle]

Carefull fella .. he might post another pic of a male displaying his genitals ... it seems to be his "thing" ...

no figgy jam, that was just for you. as the content of your posts is basically floppy cock. at least rastus has a position and the mind to defend it, rather than running to google for his opinion.

[Jantar]

...Cosine angle effect would escape most these days, as would Doppler shift. Tracking history just doesn't get the attention it should.

.

And as a motorcyclist I am happy that the recruits don't get a better understanding of the Cosine law. Yet I fail to understand how anyone with even level 1 NCEA maths wouldn't find it intuitive. However some extra training on tracking history, side lobes, angles of reflectivity, etc. would be appreciated.

[FJRider]

no figgy jam, that was just for you. as the content of your posts is basically floppy cock. at least rastus has a position and the mind to defend it, rather than running to google for his opinion.

I'll quote any source that has an opinion ... or explanation that differs from yours ... not JUST Wiki.

Because you're always wrong.

[Akzle]

...(flacid penis)
case. in. point.

[Berries]

If there was a quota I could fill it everyday without even turning a radar or laser on. I reckon I could fill a quota with simple indicating tickets, stop sign tickets, lots that are less drama and are more lucrative than speed tickets.

Tell, me, how far can you ride without seeing and obscured number plate? Easy to prove, worth lots, but hardly ever written.
Why not?

Ok, it is not a crash causing offence, but then neither are 99.9999% of speeding offences. Failing to indicate actually causes crashes. There is some odd logic going on here. I guess obscured number plates will only become a priority when the speed cameras can't read them.

[davereid]

Thank you. Cosine is not much of an issue unless the radar is moving anyway, until then it helps the person being tracked. More like things that creep into badly surpressed side lobes etc... About the cosine: What you really need is a DGPS based system to tell the radar it's own speed. Then we'd be fucked. Until then it's fairly easy to explain to the judge, why the ticket shouldn't stand.

Cosine effect can work against the motorist, its a basic vulnerability of slant radar (like camera) systems.

If the speed cam van is not parked perfectly parallel to the path of the tracked vehicle it will miscalculate the speed every time.

Police can try and park the van parallel to the road, but they cant control the path of the vehicle.

For example if a motorcyclist is moving from one side of the lane to the other, the speed camera will get it wrong.

[rastuscat]

Cosine effect can work against the motorist, its a basic vulnerability of slant radar (like camera) systems.

If the speed cam van is not parked perfectly parallel to the path of the tracked vehicle it will miscalculate the speed every time.

Police can try and park the van parallel to the road, but they cant control the path of the vehicle.

For example if a motorcyclist is moving from one side of the lane to the other, the speed camera will get it wrong.

Interesting that you should raise that, 19 years after cameras were introduced.

It was used as a defence back when they started, and was dismissed by the courts.

The practical variation in the path of a vehicle as it crosses a slant radar beam makes so little difference as to be insignificant. The variation is defeated by a 0.5 degree tolerance built into the radar alignment. So, there is a tolerance on the speed limit, then a minor tolerance on the camera alignment. I'd say that's fairly tolerant, and that anyone who gets caught is certainly breaking the rules.

Great urban myth to revive, though.

[Jantar]

.....

For example if a motorcyclist is moving from one side of the lane to the other, the speed camera will get it wrong.

If the motorcyclist's slant angle is steep enough to affect the reading then either the motorcyclist is going very slow, so no problem, or the motorcylist is about to leave the road.

Take a rider travelling at 100 kmh on the open road, and is angled across his lane at only 8 degrees towards the camera. The speed camera will read 101 kmh, but the rider will completely cross his lane and be off the road in 0.28 seconds.

Cosine error will almost always work in the motorist's favour.

[Hans]

Cosine effect can work against the motorist, its a basic vulnerability of slant radar (like camera) systems.

If the speed cam van is not parked perfectly parallel to the path of the tracked vehicle it will miscalculate the speed every time.

Police can try and park the van parallel to the road, but they cant control the path of the vehicle.

For example if a motorcyclist is moving from one side of the lane to the other, the speed camera will get it wrong.

See the part where I said it's not much of a problem. Since this thread deals with police officers and multiple bikes, I thought it was pretty safe not to discuss cameras. You'd have to get into some pretty exotic stuff to have cosine effect work against the motorist in any other stationary radar scenario. I'm trying to think of a realistic situation and I'm having trouble coming up with one.

It's all the other factors that you need to be worried about.

[scumdog]

Cosine error will almost always work in the motorist's favour.


But it's one of those things motorist comment on as being 'unfair' - go figure...:crazy:

[Hans]

But it's one of those things motorist comment on as being 'unfair' - go figure...:crazy:

Unless, of course, they happen to get snapped by a moving radar. Then it's a different story altogether. Tell me, how do you know what the radar unit used for an own speed reading?

[Akzle]

Unless, of course, they happen to get snapped by a moving radar. Then it's a different story altogether. Tell me, how do you know what the radar unit used for an own speed reading?

aren't they sync'd to the poopoo wagons? labelled something like "control vehicle speed"?

[doc]

That's why when riding in groups if one rider gets rolled then the other ones should take off, and the victim should declare no knowledge of the other riders details.


Yep thats the way to go. We were travelling in a group and pulled over a little way ahead because the lead bike stopped when signalled by Mr Policeman. He came over and asked to see our paperwork. Then gave us all tickets. After numerous communications by letter we didn't have any way out. "We were travelling as a group" Zero tolerance to speed etc.. Not worth the effort to take time off work to travel down and fight it. Only 80 bucks, but we don't all stop anymore, just wait in the next town.

[Hans]

aren't they sync'd to the poopoo wagons? labelled something like "control vehicle speed"?

The radar first gets it's own speed by getting a reading off a stationary object (it needs to be dead ahead of the vehicle), then it takes a reading of the closing speed of the popo car and you, then it subtracts it's own speed from the closing speed to get your speed. This is where the problem is:
The cosine effect that was in your favour is now against you. If the own speed reading is taken off something that's not dead ahead, then it under-reads. That makes your displayed speed read high, and you're nicked, sunshine.

[Akzle]

The radar first gets it's own speed by getting a reading off a stationary object (it needs to be dead ahead of the vehicle), then it takes a reading of the closing speed of the popo car and you, then it subtracts it's own speed from the closing speed to get your speed. This is where the problem is:
The cosine effect that was in your favour is now against you. If the own speed reading is taken off something that's not dead ahead, then it under-reads. That makes your displayed speed read high, and you're nicked, sunshine.

fucken good to know. ne'ermind the sun, i'm all about the moonshine. =)

but will it hold up in court?
'acause the last time i was nicked by the cops, he pointed to the thing on his dash that said (control vehicle speed) and (target speed) or sommat....
he was heading toward me, 3 lanes to my right...

[rastuscat]

aren't they sync'd to the poopoo wagons? labelled something like "control vehicle speed"?

Good heavens, is this Azkle saying he doesn't know something? From what I've previously read, it was my understanding that he knew everything.

There is no speed input from the vehicle to the radar unit.

The radar detects it's own patrol speed, AKA ground speed.

Gosh.

[Akzle]

Good heavens, is this Azkle saying he doesn't know something? From what I've previously read, it was my understanding that he knew everything.

There is no speed input from the vehicle to the radar unit.

The radar detects it's own patrol speed, AKA ground speed.

Gosh.

so.... not an excuse to f*ck the shithead cop in court?
*sadface*

sorry rasty. i DO know everything, sometimes and i forget what i know. thanks for reminding me. =)

[baffa]

Q. Do the admins do anything in KB?

Most of the other forums I browse would ban akzle for being a faggot, but he seems free to spew his diarrhea filled vitrol.

I once got pinged for a fairly hefty speed by a speed camera van, and thought I'd be smart by writing to argue the fine, wanting a photo and calibration of the radar device as proof. They sent me both.

So instead of bitching about it, I paid. Most of us speed on a daily basis. If you get caught even once or twice per year, consider yourself lucky.

[Jantar]

Q. Do the admins do anything in KB?

Most of the other forums I browse would ban akzle for being a faggot, but he seems free to spew his diarrhea filled vitrol........

It is pretty hard to get banned here on KB. It is a bikers' site so we are pretty liberal in what is allowed. Serious abuse does earn the offender an infraction, and as the infractions build up the offender will start to lose privileges (like being able to pm), they go to pink hell where everthing they read looks like the pointless Drivel forum. If they still offend they have to have every post checked by a moderator, but us mods are lazy buggers and we hate doing that. In extreme cases only they can get banned.

Moderators cannot read everything that is posted, so if you see something that is way over the top you can report the post by clicking on the report post icon at the bottom left of the post. It looks like a give way sign with an exclamation mark in it.

[Akzle]

Most of the other forums I browse would ban akzle for being a faggot, but he seems free to spew his diarrhea filled vitrol.

...thought I'd be smart by writing...

dude. I'm hilarious.
Just 'cos you're not smart enough to get off notice, dont come whining here. If you want sympathy, (or a hug) go buy it.
*violin

Calling me a faggot is more likely to get infracted than what i do. Asides from showing a complete lack of wit.

So you admit to speeding regularly. Thats a breach of the terms you agreed to in getting a licence. In good conscience you should take your
self to court and face the music. (that'd be tha law!)

And i believe the standard response is "if you dont like how it is here, fuck off to somalia"

peace bro!

[SMOKEU]

Q. Do the admins do anything in KB?

Most of the other forums I browse would ban akzle for being a faggot, but he seems free to spew his diarrhea filled vitrol.

I once got pinged for a fairly hefty speed by a speed camera van, and thought I'd be smart by writing to argue the fine, wanting a photo and calibration of the radar device as proof. They sent me both.

So instead of bitching about it, I paid. Most of us speed on a daily basis. If you get caught even once or twice per year, consider yourself lucky.

I'd know, I've been banned from enough forums to understand what forum over-moderation is like. KB is great because it allows people to voice their opinions without fear of some fuckwit mod who's on a power trip ever since they got rejected from police college for being too fat.

As an example, on one forum that I frequent, a dude got burned by LN2, so I said "pics or it didn't happen". I ended up getting flamed quite a bit, and the mods deleted my post, and banned me from viewing the thread, and gave me an infraction. You don't want KB to turn into a nanny state like that or Trademe (they banned me from posting on the message boards).

[FJRider]

Calling me a faggot is more likely to get infracted than what i do. Asides from showing a complete lack of wit.

Stating fact in a post is unlikely to result in getting infracted. You are one that has a self admitted lack of wit ... so you're hardly in a good position to accuse him of it ...

[/QUOTE]

[scracha]

So the moral is:-
if you speed, don't stop or you're fucked.
if you don't speed, get a bike mounted camera....but you're probably still fucked.

[Akzle]

Stating fact in a post is unlikely to result in getting infracted. You are one that has a self admitted lack of wit ... so you're hardly in a good position to accuse him of it ...

[/QUOTE]

i don't know. i can't find it on google...

[Muppet]

I'd know, I've been banned from enough forums to understand what forum over-moderation is like. KB is great because it allows people to voice their opinions without fear of some fuckwit mod who's on a power trip ever since they got rejected from police college for being too fat.

As an example, on one forum that I frequent, a dude got burned by LN2, so I said "pics or it didn't happen". I ended up getting flamed quite a bit, and the mods deleted my post, and banned me from viewing the thread, and gave me an infraction. You don't want KB to turn into a nanny state like that or Trademe (they banned me from posting on the message boards).

Let me guess, it's everyone else's fault not yours????

[Muppet]

so.... not an excuse to f*ck the shithead cop in court?
*sadface*

sorry rasty. i DO know everything, sometimes and i forget what i know. thanks for reminding me. =)


Said it before on this thread, I'll say it again..."This is quite entertaining watching all you armchair experts/bush lawyers talk about something you a) aren't trained to use b) aren't certified to use and c) have no experience in using".

Akzle, you should be a biking agony aunt.....

"Dear Akzle,

the other day the police got me for speeding again help!

Yours, Buggered."



"Dear Buggered,

if the cops weren't wearing their hats, they have to pay you compensation.

Akzle"

[onearmedbandit]

Q. Do the admins do anything in KB?

Most of the other forums I browse would ban akzle for being a faggot, but he seems free to spew his diarrhea filled vitrol.



It great isn't it? We let people speak their mind in a free manner, with the exception of abuse (like I could ping you for calling him a faggot, it's been done before). Basically it's a 'do not like it, do not read it' policy. We're not here to hold hands with you. We do this for the benefits only, discounted petrol, reduced ACC levies and free tyres to name a few.

[onearmedbandit]

Said it before on this thread, I'll say it again..."This is quite entertaining watching all you armchair experts/bush lawyers talk about something you a) aren't trained to use b) aren't certified to use and c) have no experience in using".



Yeah be damned those who talk about things they aren't trained or certified in. They have no right to talk about such things.

[baffa]

Cheers for the feedback guys, was genuinely curious.

As said before, everyone speeds, getting caught is just a matter of when.

[scumdog]

As said before, everyone speeds, getting caught is just a matter of when.

Try telling THAT to the rest of KB...

[Hans]

Said it before on this thread, I'll say it again..."This is quite entertaining watching all you armchair experts/bush lawyers talk about something you a) aren't trained to use b) aren't certified to use and c) have no experience in using".

Akzle, you should be a biking agony aunt.....

"Dear Akzle,

the other day the police got me for speeding again help!

Yours, Buggered."



"Dear Buggered,

if the cops weren't wearing their hats, they have to pay you compensation.

Akzle"

Dunno about armchair expert... Would you consider someone who operated radar on a surface-to-air missile system and went on to become second-in-command of a whole sector an armchair expert? I am not rated to operate your typical popo radar, but I certainly feel qualified enough to comment on the inherent shortcomings of such a system. And besides, I'm a pompous prick, so I can comment on whatever I like.

[Berries]

Dunno about armchair expert... Would you consider someone who operated radar on a surface-to-air missile system and went on to become second-in-command of a whole sector an armchair expert? I am not rated to operate your typical popo radar, but I certainly feel qualified enough to comment on the inherent shortcomings of such a system.
I used to have a laser pointer on a key ring.

[rastuscat]

I used to have a laser pointer on a key ring.

You are qualified.

Comment.

[bsasuper]

You are qualified.

Comment.

Id say over qualified

[davereid]

The radar first gets it's own speed by getting a reading off a stationary object (it needs to be dead ahead of the vehicle), then it takes a reading of the closing speed of the popo car and you, then it subtracts it's own speed from the closing speed to get your speed. This is where the problem is:
The cosine effect that was in your favour is now against you. If the own speed reading is taken off something that's not dead ahead, then it under-reads. That makes your displayed speed read high, and you're nicked, sunshine.

The worst case is when the returned signal is from a moving vehicle in front of the patrol car. The patrol car speed is not correctly recorded, the closing speed on the vehicle in front is used thus severely inflating the calculated speed for the approaching vehicle.

Many have said that speed camera radar error caused by a target vehicle not traveling toward the camera at the calculated angle is negligible.

Its actually a worse case of 8%, for a camera at a design slant of 22.5 degrees, which I'm told is what we use.

The camera would have to be severely misaligned for this to occur, or the camera would have to poorly sited on a corner, or the vehicle would have be changing lanes quickly etc.

I accept its not likely, but its still entirely possible, and its not completely acceptable in my view to discount the possibility.