Your bank statement for sale

[davereid]

Amendments 4 and 5 to the credit reporting code are now approved by the Privacy Commissioner.

This allows your phone provider, credit card company, electricity retailer, (anyone you do or may owe money to) and your bank to send your personal details, Name, address, DOB, Driver Licence number (If you have been so stupid as to provide it) to Veda and other credit rating agencies for sharing with their customers.

It also allows them to send Veda a virtual "snapshot" of your bank statement, which they can also sell information on.

For example, if you buy on credit card, have a $400 power bill and and a $200 dollar internet bill, this information is sent to Veda, as will be your payment history. Veda can then sell that to its customers.

BNZ just advertised their intenion to start selling your bank statement in the paper today.

If you are a BNZ customer, and you want your banking to remain confidential between you and the bank, why not give them a call or drop them a line. 0800 275 269

[Akzle]

never mind that.

you read the open banking resolution?


... adn you thought banks were there to help you.:nono:

[davereid]

ASB have announced they will be selling your bank statement as well.

Interestingly this actually is bad business for them. Under the old regime, they only released data on their bad customers.

With this system, they are actually selling the details of their good ones as well.

Muddled thinking in head office IMHO....

[DangerMice]

Any link to the ASB one?

[Madness]

I hope they get more for mine than what my balance is.

[onearmedbandit]

You posted this last night, and have had (excluding mine) 3 replies (including one from yourself) and 148 views.

I posted 90mins ago a video of a guy stabbing a tyre and getting knocked off his feet along with a nasty arm wound, 7 replies and 60 views.

Sums up how the people don't care what happens, as long as they are entertained.

[mashman]

You posted this last night, and have had (excluding mine) 3 replies (including one from yourself) and 148 views.

I posted 90mins ago a video of a guy stabbing a tyre and getting knocked off his feet along with a nasty arm wound, 7 replies and 60 views.

Sums up how the people don't care what happens, as long as they are entertained.

:shit: hush your filthy mouth... it's only information, what could possibly be gained from it?

[blue rider]

back to cash transactions .....

[mashman]

back to cash transactions .....

I'd prefer no transactions at all... we could forgo the mess those sorts of transactions leave in their wake.

[Berries]

I'm only reading this thread because of the avatars in posts 5 and 6.

[FJRider]

back to cash transactions .....

It's not how you spend (cash or eftpos) it's where ... and to who.

think about ... Who has the information ... and who wants it ... and why do they want it.

[Coldrider]

As soon as GE FINANCE buy my financial summary they will realise bombarding my mailbox with 24% loans has been a total waste of their marketing resources. Now if a wine distributor cottons on to my favourite tipples at appropriate prices then bring it on.

[blue rider]

It's not how you spend (cash or eftpos) it's where ... and to who.

think about ... Who has the information ... and who wants it ... and why do they want it.

i understand,

however if i start pulling out cash and pay my transactions with cash instead of eftpos......well my statements will be slim, rent, electricity, phone, bike....the rest none of anyone's business.

i can't prevent my information from being stolen and sold, but I can keep the information gleaned to a minimum.

[Ocean1]

i understand

No, you don't.

It doesn't matter that you can hide some of your transactions, it'll come to the point where corporations paying for the info won't deal with you unless they CAN see the transactions they expect you to make.

[blue rider]

No, you don't.

It doesn't matter that you can hide some of your transactions, it'll come to the point where corporations paying for the info won't deal with you unless they CAN see the transactions they expect you to make.

thank you.....but these are the transactions i make.

if someone expects me to buy a pair of heels on my eftpos the be shit out of luck. but they will find chain lube, wof, rego, and other such stuff.

expectations are overrated.
reality bites.

why are you always so grumpy?

[mossy1200]

I dont need to worry. I vet all my money into pay pal to purchase online porn. Nobody will ever trace me and send junk mail to further my addiction to granny secks.

[Conquiztador]

I am sooo glad I have a Swiss bank account!

[blue rider]

I am sooo glad I have a Swiss bank account!

oh yeah?
you share?:devil2:

[Ocean1]

thank you.....but these are the transactions i make.

if someone expects me to buy a pair of heels on my eftpos the be shit out of luck. but they will find chain lube, wof, rego, and other such stuff.

expectations are overrated.
reality bites.


Fine. But don't be surprised if, in a couple of years you can't get insurance because you don't match any insurance company's customer profiles.


why are you always so grumpy?

Am fucking not.

[Conquiztador]

oh yeah?
you share?:devil2:

The whole idea with them is that you have them so you do not have to share...

[blue rider]

lucky i am already insured.....and to think that when i came first to NZ i was offered a job with the National Bank because I had a clean bank record, due to never having had a bank account in this country. lol


I still do a lot of cash transactions i like to do my shopping on markets, shop local, support nz made and that. However over winter it is not always easy. .

alas i am to poor for a bank account in switzerland....not enough quatloos i am paid for the work i do:baby:

[FJRider]

i understand,

however if i start pulling out cash and pay my transactions with cash instead of eftpos......well my statements will be slim, rent, electricity, phone, bike....the rest none of anyone's business.

i can't prevent my information from being stolen and sold, but I can keep the information gleaned to a minimum.

The information contained with one company means little. But if the information all companys have on your spending history share their information on where and on what you buy. Small bites of info mount up.

[Conquiztador]

The funny thing is that it is only if you have something to hide that all this becomes and issue...

[blue rider]

The funny thing is that it is only if you have something to hide that all this becomes and issue...

yeah, sure tui....

i have heard this before.......fact is my shopping and spending attitude, is my shopping and spending attitude. I am already bombarded with advertising everywhere, do I now want to get targeted. Fuck no.

i have not given any financial institution the right to auction my private information to to the highest bidder. Someone wants my personal information, they can give me a call and ask.

After all, if they don't have anything to hide, they can come to me directly and it won't be an issue. Because i will tell them to bugger off.

[Hans]

The funny thing is that it is only if you have something to hide that all this becomes and issue...

Surely you've got to be trolling me.

[Akzle]

i have not given any financial institution the right to auction my private information to to the highest bidder.

actually. you did.
you do not own a bank account. one was opened through your person/NAME, so as you can work in the wonderful world of commerce.
if you accept joinder with your person, which you apparently do, (you were certainly acting as though, when you SIGNED the contract with your bank) then YOU absolutely gave them that right. (and forfeited any you may have had)

the bank administers the account for your NAME. don't be fooled just because you have a card with the NAME on it.
(if you don't believe me, try getting the bank NOT to pay you interest (whereby NOT paying the tax on the interest))

[blue rider]

actually. you did.
you do not own a bank account. one was opened through your person/NAME, so as you can work in the wonderful world of commerce.
if you accept joinder with your person, which you apparently do, (you were certainly acting as though, when you SIGNED the contract with your bank) then YOU absolutely gave them that right. (and forfeited any you may have had)

the bank administers the account for your NAME. don't be fooled just because you have a card with the NAME on it.
(if you don't believe me, try getting the bank NOT to pay you interest (whereby NOT paying the tax on the interest))

then as i said before....minimize all transactions to only those for which a bank account is needed and start paying everything else in cash. they might get information from me, but its boring as.

if i can't prevent harm , and this will only do harm, i must do the darnest to keep it to a minimum. and yes my tinfoil hat suits me well....it is very stylish. :shifty:

[allycatz]

Well recent experience I just had....totally strange DD set up in my account with name Ive never heard of. Contacted bank who came back and said it was short term loan company and they would dig further. Next month it appears again, this time with reference of NZ Forest & Bird, hmmmmm???? So I ring F&B to whom Ive been making monthly donations to get this " Oh I'm terribly sorry, yes we passed on everyones details to the new company collecting our donations and they were supposed to let everyone know" WTF? So hello lady what about asking my permission before giving away my bank account details? Anyways, they have now lost a reasonable size monthly donation for doing so.

[short-circuit]

The financial sector is a fucken rort. This sort of exploitation (not to mention the economic disaster that has been the Western economy for the last five years) is precisely why all banks should be Nationalised.

They should simply act as utilities - given the sole purpose of holding customers money.

[Brett]

I think one needs to take for granted these days that there is no information around an individual that is safe. Personally I have a great credit history...do I want everyone to know that though??? Hell no. My personal details, in any form, should not be able to be passed on to anyone. However, the Privacy Act seems to have many many holes that can be exploited if an org wants some info. Be glad we're not the USA, apparently their personal information protection laws are very very light. NZ as part of the developed world it supposedly one of the better countries for personal information protection.

[Brett]

The financial sector is a fucken rort. All banks should be Nationalised. They should simply act as utilities - given the sole purpose of holding customers money.

Because the government wouldn't see that monopoly control as an opportunity to extort more money from consumers?? I love your idea, but alas...govt ownership/control isn't the answer. There are alternatives to banks, cooperative banks/collectives/trusts where the customers are the shareholders. But there are limitation with this that won't suit everyone.

[short-circuit]

Because the government wouldn't see that monopoly control as an opportunity to extort more money from consumers?? I love your idea, but alas...govt ownership/control isn't the answer. There are alternatives to banks, cooperative banks/collectives/trusts where the customers are the shareholders. But there are limitation with this that won't suit everyone.

Don't be stupid. Competition is a fallacy. This "industry" has been completely deregulated to the point that is simply a gigantic Ponzi scheme - do you think you've been a beneficiary of that? Whether you want to believe it or not governments can be held to account a lot more easily than corporations

[mossy1200]

Question?

Part of getting a mortgage is a points system that counts backwards based on how many credit checks you have had in the past for loans etc.
If info is sold and alot of people check on you wont this effect your credit check history?

[Brett]

Edit...post being reviewed due to possible poster (myself...) inaccuracy.

[scott411]

Question?

Part of getting a mortgage is a points system that counts backwards based on how many credit checks you have had in the past for loans etc.
If info is sold and alot of people check on you wont this effect your credit check history?

this system is ment to make that easier, i know i had alot of enquires on my veda check which looked bad, but it was because we opened a heap of accounts for the business, and alot of the bigger companies did credit checks on me, more enquires looks bad in the current system as it does not show if you have taken a loan, only if you have enquired, shop around to get a better rate and it looks bad,

the new system is ment to show what you have on finance already, not just what you have looked at getting

[short-circuit]

Some competition is better than no competition, and yes...there is some competition between banks.. Yes...because there are so many great examples of poorly run government businesses/organisations that have performed poorly and been held to account. Oh...and of course our politicians are held to account for the things that matter at all... ACC being a case in point. Labour cooked the books with ACC for years and it only came out after the end of their reign that actually it was running at a huge deficit and needed massive re-organisation.
Now...this isn't to shoot at Labour at all, just a case in point of a government only looking after their own interests. If ACC was privatised and carried out that sort of thing the shareholders would have called for the heads of management. If a listed company knowingly lies on it's financial statements, the securities commission would have them in court before they their sphincter can pucker. It may have been a slow and drawn out process, but this is partly what some of the failed finance company directors have ended up in jail for.

Edit - point being, it seems that average joe public seems to be able to hold a private company to account much better than a govt run/owned corp.

All that investment in a (repeatedly) failed ideology despite whats staring you in the face. New Zealanders really do put the slow into learning.

[Akzle]

then as i said before....minimize all transactions to only those for which a bank account is needed and start paying everything else in cash. they might get information from me, but its boring as.
pretty much.
but what actually needs a bank account?
if you're hired, but not ("legally") employed, you can be paid in cash (infact, even if you are "employed", the Wages Protection Act demands you ARE paid in cash - you waive this right with an employment "contract" nominating a bank account - which is illegal) then you have no need of a bank account. the only ones who NEED a bank account are those on the dole. so the government can balance their books.

but yes. cash is king. (and easier than carrying a boot full of camels)


The financial sector is a fucken rort. This sort of exploitation (not to mention the economic disaster that has been the Western economy for the last five yearssince the mid thirties) is precisely why all banks should be Nationalised.

They should simply act as utilities - given the sole purpose of holding customers money.
bahahahahhahhhhaahha.
newton over-valued gold when england started running out of silver. a pound of (stirling) silver used ot be just that - a pound stirling. now silver is "worth", what? 900$/oz?
if you want a "nationalised" bank sign up with "kiwibank" but personally, putting more money into the governments hands just doesn't seem like a good idea.


Be glad we're not the USA, apparently their personal information protection laws are very very light. NZ as part of the developed world it supposedly one of the better countries for personal information protection.
US citizens LOVE this shit. it's all about security. to stop the terrorists. 9-11. :eek:
did ya hear about that lady that had her family microchipped?
they lapp this shit up because a) their government tells them to and they're stupid, b) "it's so easy" - how easy will it be when we all have microchips implanted - linked to bank accounts, court account, police record, shopping history, online websites etc etc etc. just look at how many people jumped at facebook and started posting EVERYTHING. now they got it on their (GPS enabled) smart phones - it's all tracking where you are, what you "bump buy" and people LOVE IT.

but hey. it stops the terrorists too.

There are alternatives to banks, cooperative banks/collectives/trusts where the customers are the shareholders. But there are limitation with this that won't suit everyone.
yeah. the 1-5k$ buy in.
but i would urge everyone with the 1-5K to do it.

Question?

Part of getting a mortgage...

you realise that the bank isn't actually holding the "money" when you get a mortgage? they can't take it out of anyone elses account, they don't "own" any money themselves.
what you create when you sign the papers is CREDIT. which you then have to pay back (to get back to debit??). fucked up eh?

[Brett]

All that investment in a (repeatedly) failed ideology despite whats staring you in the face. New Zealanders really do put the slow into learning.

I don't think it's an idealogy when it's based on historical experience. I think it's you that lives with failed idealogies and is slow to learn...Or is this like the Macsyna King thing all over again?

[mashman]

I don't think it's an idealogy when it's based on historical experience. I think it's you that lives with failed idealogies and is slow to learn...Or is this like the Macsyna King thing all over again?

:rofl: of course it's an ideology and it has been failing since its inception. Some of us see this quite clearly as we have learned from history and the present just how ultimately flawed it is... Ahem, baaaaaaaa.

[short-circuit]

I don't think it's an idealogy when it's based on historical experience. I think it's you that lives with failed idealogies and is slow to learn...Or is this like the Macsyna King thing all over again?

You can bend historical experience around to mean whatever you want it to mean for you. The right is doing a fucken ace job of running economies all over the world at present aren't they? ...and bankers are in it up to the elbows

[short-circuit]

:rofl: of course it's an ideology and it has been failing since its inception. Some of us see this quite clearly as we have learned from history and the present just how ultimately flawed it is... Ahem, baaaaaaaa.

........snap

[Brett]

You can bend historical experience around to mean whatever you want it to mean for you. The right is doing a fucken ace job of running economies all over the world at present aren't they? ...and bankers are in it up to the elbows

Right, Left...I don't give a rats arse. POLITICIANS are doing a good job of looking after their own interests full stop, they don't care about you or I...so why would I give them MORE control over my life (ie letting them run the bank that looks after my primary asset/means of living? Communism springs to mind...let's let the state tell us how to live, control how much of and what we can buy, what we do day to day, what we're allowed to do for job...sounds GREAT to me. *TUI*. Screw that. You guys can give the politicians more control over you, I'm not going to.

[Brett]

Ahem, baaaaaaaa.

Baaa me? Baaaa YOU.

[short-circuit]

Right, Left...I don't give a rats arse. POLITICIANS are doing a good job of looking after their own interests full stop, they don't care about you or I...so why would I give them MORE control over my life (ie letting them run the bank that looks after my primary asset/means of living? Communism springs to mind...let's let the state tell us how to live, control how much of and what we can buy, what we do day to day, what we're allowed to do for job...sounds GREAT to me. *TUI*. Screw that. You guys can give the politicians more control over you, I'm not going to.

Go ahead and enjoy corporate feudalism :facepalm:

[FJRider]

:rofl: of course it's an ideology and it has been failing since its inception. Some of us see this quite clearly as we have learned from history and the present just how ultimately flawed it is... Ahem, baaaaaaaa.

The one fact we have learned from history ... is we have not learned from history.

As each year passes ... we prefer to believe in exceptions to previous results of historical events.

And long may this folly continue ... that which makes us human.

[Brett]

Go ahead and enjoy corporate feudalism :facepalm:

Communism bloody idealogy. Typical NZ attitude. If you think differently, you must be somehow broken. I suggest not wandering too far from the commune pal. (Your hemp sandals might start rubbing.)

Seriously, you're bemoaning corporates having "power" and the "nationalist" government...and yet you want to give the government MORE power?? Yeah...and I'm the unenlightened one.:facepalm:

[short-circuit]

Communism bloody idealogy. Typical NZ attitude. If you think differently, you must be somehow broken. I suggest not wandering too far from the commune pal. (Your hemp sandals might start rubbing.)

Seriously, you're bemoaning corporates having "power" and the "nationalist" government...and yet you want to give the government MORE power?? Yeah...and I'm the unenlightened one.:facepalm:

Perhaps you wouldn't all have such a fear of goverment if you didn't keep electing such utter retards

....but then I guess parliament is supposed to be representative of its constituents

[Brett]

Perhaps you wouldn't all have such a fear of goverment if you didn't keep electing such utter retards

....but then I guess parliament is supposed to be representative of its constituents

Typical, blame everything on the government...I may not want them to have more control over me...but ultimately not everything is their fault....(or is everything someone else's fault? - a point you seem pretty determined to portray in your defense of that useless slug of a mother who let her kids be smashed to death).

Don't worry...soon enough you will be left with only like minded individuals in NZ. The rest of us will have finally had enough and fucked off.

My bike's got a flattie...damn gubberment at it again.
Weather is shit, gubbermint must be using their secret technology to mess with the atmosphere.
I hope you have your tinfoil helmet on short circuit.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YlcLOl0Bm3c/T5S1EUgLwvI/AAAAAAAAA1M/UdnM3YBhL6c/s1600/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[short-circuit]

Typical, blame everything on the government...I may not want them to have more control over me...but ultimately not everything is their fault....(or is everything someone else's fault? - a point you seem pretty determined to portray in your defense of that useless slug of a mother who let her kids be smashed to death).

Don't worry...soon enough you will be left with only like minded individuals in NZ. The rest of us will have finally had enough and fucked off.

My bike's got a flattie...damn gubberment at it again.
Weather is shit, gubbermint must be using their secret technology to mess with the atmosphere.
I hope you have your tinfoil helmet on short circuit.


You can't have it both ways downsy. At the begining I said Nationalise banks and control the financial sector (that would be an end of thread solution).

This government is hardly going to do that. I didn't elect this bunch of fuckwits so no I am not responsible for the direction we are headed in.

You are not seriously suggesting that western governments over the past 30 years have not be working in corporate interests are you? The deregulation of the financial sector most certainly is the governments fault...and that of the fuckwits that swallowed their ideology.

[Brett]

You can't have it both ways downsy. At the begining I said Nationalise banks and control the financial sector (the would be an end of thread solution).

This government is hardly going to do that. I didn't elect this bunch of fuckwits so no I am not responsible for the direct we are headed in.

You are not seriously suggesting that western governments over the past 30 years have not be working in corporate interests are you?

Downsy...LMAO. At least you're a funny fucker!

How do I want things both ways? I don't want the govt controlling our financial sector, I don't trust politicians because they primarily look after No. 1, but I also don't blame them for everything going wrong either.

Nationalise banks = government ownership. Government having total controlling power over NZ financial sector = bad idea, same way only having one retail bank iN NZ is a bad idea. Tell me, how many government bonds do you have?

[short-circuit]

Downsy...LMAO. At least you're a funny fucker!

How do I want things both ways? I don't want the govt controlling our financial sector, I don't trust politicians because they primarily look after No. 1, but I also don't blame them for everything going wrong either.

Nationalise banks = government ownership. Government having total controlling power over NZ financial sector = bad idea, same way only having one retail bank iN NZ is a bad idea. Tell me, how many government bonds do you have?

I already know your preference is to be sodomised by corporations instead (with no redress whatsoever)

[mashman]

Baaa me? Baaaa YOU.

Oh no you didn't :nono:, no no, baaaa YOU If all you can see is capitalism or communism then you bought the propaganda. Both tell you what you can and can't do. Both remove your choices. Both remove personal freedoms. Both have so many things in common it makes me laugh that a person could prefer one over the other... it's still a bunch of people limiting what we are capable of by using money as a tool to keep the sheeple amused whilst they go about the important business of fleecing the sheeple (should that be de-fleecing?). Under either of these systems, those whom control the money supply are the masters and the govt is just a puppet show. Competition then comes down to how much money you have, how well your advertise and market, how cheap your product is with quality of product coming a distant second. Money needs to make money etc... for the cycle to continue, people to be fed, housed, watered etc... I know this now. The budget constraint that this brings has a massive knock on affect to the economy and when the fucktards decide to turn off the money tap, which they did 5 or so years ago, mayhem ensues.

Under "my" system. Freedom of choice becomes everything and not a price point war, competition for competitions sake with everyone sharing ideas so that we all leap forwards instead of crawl. There are many more ways of running economies. The current system is fucked and has been since day 1 and is getting more and more fuckeded as we go along. This does not have to be the case, not by any means. So baaaaa to you (or somefink like that)!

[Akzle]

Don't worry...soon enough you will be left with only like minded individuals in NZ. The rest of us will have finally had enough and fucked off.

i eagerly await this day. please take your politicians and cops with you.

[mashman]

i eagerly await this day. please take your politicians and cops with you.

+1 and some chars... would if they'd be considerate enough to hurry the fuck up too.

[davereid]

.......those whom control the money supply are the masters and the govt is just a puppet show......


That is exactly what has happened here.

The Privacy Act restricted this sort of trading of personal information. It limited the ability of credit vendors to determine who was a good target for their credit product.

So the lobbied for a law change and got amendments 4 and 5 passed.

This effectively bypasses the Privacy Act for them. As soon as you "give them consent" by hooking up to electricity, the phone, gas or any service provided on credit you are fucked.

And try getting any of those services without credit. They are either vastly more expensive, or are simply not available.

Credit vendors lobbied for this change, claiming it would mean they could make better lending decisions and offer credit to individuals who had previously been outside the scope of traditional lenders portfolios. The USA had this kind of system and US lenders were entirely able to make poor lending decisions, so the former claim is clearly bullshit.

The latter claim I accept, its certainly been a great way of finding new clients. Lenders can now clearly identify poor people with a good repayment record who have room to take on a bit more debt.

The lenders also claimed that it would help them make better lending decisions. There is no evidence that that will happen. Making it easy to stop repaying poorly offered credit products would have been a better way of doing this.

[Akzle]

That is exactly what has happened here.

The Privacy Act restricted this sort of trading of personal information. It limited the ability of credit vendors to determine who was a good target for their credit product.

So the lobbied for a law change and got amendments 4 and 5 passed.

This effectively bypasses the Privacy Act for them. As soon as you "give them consent" by hooking up to electricity, the phone, gas or any service provided on credit you are fucked.

And try getting any of those services without credit. They are either vastly more expensive, or are simply not available.

Credit vendors lobbied for this change, claiming it would mean they could make better lending decisions and offer credit to individuals who had previously been outside the scope of traditional lenders portfolios. The USA had this kind of system and US lenders were entirely able to make poor lending decisions, so the former claim is clearly bullshit.

The latter claim I accept, its certainly been a great way of finding new clients. Lenders can now clearly identify poor people with a good repayment record who have room to take on a bit more debt.

The lenders also claimed that it would help them make better lending decisions. There is no evidence that that will happen. Making it easy to stop repaying poorly offered credit products would have been a better way of doing this.

logic has no place in KB arguments. tits or gtfo.

[mashman]

That is exactly what has happened here.

The Privacy Act restricted this sort of trading of personal information. It limited the ability of credit vendors to determine who was a good target for their credit product.

So the lobbied for a law change and got amendments 4 and 5 passed.

This effectively bypasses the Privacy Act for them. As soon as you "give them consent" by hooking up to electricity, the phone, gas or any service provided on credit you are fucked.

And try getting any of those services without credit. They are either vastly more expensive, or are simply not available.

Credit vendors lobbied for this change, claiming it would mean they could make better lending decisions and offer credit to individuals who had previously been outside the scope of traditional lenders portfolios. The USA had this kind of system and US lenders were entirely able to make poor lending decisions, so the former claim is clearly bullshit.

The latter claim I accept, its certainly been a great way of finding new clients. Lenders can now clearly identify poor people with a good repayment record who have room to take on a bit more debt.

The lenders also claimed that it would help them make better lending decisions. There is no evidence that that will happen. Making it easy to stop repaying poorly offered credit products would have been a better way of doing this.

Aye... an all in the name of giving credit where credit is due... or should that be debt? I still larf that these fucktards believe that a financial solution to a financial problem is the way to go, although I'm not really surprised at the utter lack of stupidity given the TOscars of this world.

Maybe we're gonna have to wait for another round of boom and bust before the stupid fuckers and the sheeple wake up and realise that it just doesn't work... and that they are the ones causing the majority of the damage to the people of the world, oh and the planet too, oh and that they're responsible for the lack of innovation and human advancement. Brainless brians the lot of 'em, spouting the party line because they feel that they need to defend the reason that they voted a particular way :facepalm: fuckin morons.

[Brett]

Oh no you didn't :nono:, no no, baaaa YOU If all you can see is capitalism or communism then you bought the propaganda. Both tell you what you can and can't do. Both remove your choices. Both remove personal freedoms. Both have so many things in common it makes me laugh that a person could prefer one over the other... it's still a bunch of people limiting what we are capable of by using money as a tool to keep the sheeple amused whilst they go about the important business of fleecing the sheeple (should that be de-fleecing?). Under either of these systems, those whom control the money supply are the masters and the govt is just a puppet show. Competition then comes down to how much money you have, how well your advertise and market, how cheap your product is with quality of product coming a distant second. Money needs to make money etc... for the cycle to continue, people to be fed, housed, watered etc... I know this now. The budget constraint that this brings has a massive knock on affect to the economy and when the fucktards decide to turn off the money tap, which they did 5 or so years ago, mayhem ensues.

Under "my" system. Freedom of choice becomes everything and not a price point war, competition for competitions sake with everyone sharing ideas so that we all leap forwards instead of crawl. There are many more ways of running economies. The current system is fucked and has been since day 1 and is getting more and more fuckeded as we go along. This does not have to be the case, not by any means. So baaaaa to you (or somefink like that)!

Of course there is a world of grey area in between both idealogies, not questioning that at all. I also don't question for one second that things are not currently optimally run. I still however do NOT think that giving government more control is a good idea. In fact, this is in support of your ideal for greater freedom of choice. Power to the people I say. This does not occur by greater regulation and/or govt control.

[Brett]

i eagerly await this day. please take your politicians and cops with you.

With pleasure...but when all of the entrepreneurial people keen to start forward thinking businesses have gone (along with a major underpinning of the future tax base), we'll see where this leaves you. FYI - I'm NOT talking about corporate fat cats, I'm talking about the SME's that account for 50%+ of NZ's economic base.

[Brett]

Aye... an all in the name of giving credit where credit is due... or should that be debt? I still larf that these fucktards believe that a financial solution to a financial problem is the way to go, although I'm not really surprised at the utter lack of stupidity given the TOscars of this world.

Maybe we're gonna have to wait for another round of boom and bust before the stupid fuckers and the sheeple wake up and realise that it just doesn't work... and that they are the ones causing the majority of the damage to the people of the world, oh and the planet too, oh and that they're responsible for the lack of innovation and human advancement. Brainless brians the lot of 'em, spouting the party line because they feel that they need to defend the reason that they voted a particular way :facepalm: fuckin morons.

But on one hand you're preaching freedom of choice, and then when those of lower social economic and/or financial literacy make poor choices you change tunes?

I am no more a fan of politicians which ever colour flag they choose to fly than any of you guys are. However I also refuse for them to have the blame for every undesirable occurence lobbed at them. They make some pretty shit decisions as well as some decent ones, but ultimately people are also greatly let down by their own poor decision making. The issues in the financial markets that spooled up from about 2006 and caused all of that shit in 2008 are a product of greedy financial institutions, but also of people making poor choices (ie ...I'll get a 110% loan for a house even though I only earn peanuts and use the extra 10% to buy a new car because everyone knows property prices always rise over the long term...Yeah right. Yes this was spurned by a loosening of lending regulations, primarily amongst US lenders...and this caused unwise people to make foolish choices, but it also provided more competition in the market place and thus some cheaper financial products for consumers in general.
I argue that instead of legislating and more government control, we need greater consumer education.

[avgas]

:rofl: of course it's an ideology and it has been failing since its inception. Some of us see this quite clearly as we have learned from history and the present just how ultimately flawed it is... Ahem, baaaaaaaa.
It takes 2 types of fools to fill this world.
Those who don't know, and do it anyway. Those who do, and do it anyway. While I think I fall under the latter, at-least the former are a quiet lot.

[avgas]

Typical, blame everything on the government...
It so much easier than responsibility for ones actions......or in the case here inaction.

[AD345]

*snip*... ACC being a case in point. Labour cooked the books with ACC for years and it only came out after the end of their reign that actually it was running at a huge deficit and needed massive re-organisation.
*snip*.

Where the fuck did you come up with this steaming pile of bullshit?

ACC had (and still have) billions of dollar in cash reserves and are less than 5 - 10 years (depending on the pace of change, which itself depends on who wins elections) from completing a transformation from a pay-as-you-go model to a fully funded model (which means having enough cash on hand TODAY to cover all existing claims for the next 40 years)

The ACC investment arm was/is the single most spectacularly performing investment operation in NZ

Buddy - I don't know where you get your Kool-Aid from but you really need to change suppliers because that one statement has undermined everything you have ever said since due to its mind-bogglingly large level of sheer misinformed ignorance

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/overview-of-acc/PRD_CTRB110932

[Ocean1]

I'm NOT talking about corporate fat cats, I'm talking about the SME's that account for 50%+ of NZ's economic base.


There are around 3500 small to medium (SME) NZ companies with annual revenues of $10-150 million and around 2500 companies in the $10-50 million revenue range;

SMEs are attributed with around 1/3 of NZ’s GDP;

SMEs have an estimated enterprise (debt + equity) valuation in the order of $50-100 billion which is sizeable when compared to the NZ listed market capitalisation of around $53 billion;

SMEs employ over 30% of the New Zealand workforce;

Some 80% of NZ’s top 200 companies (by enterprise valuation) are unlisted.

What that doesn't tell you is the percentage of revenue that stays in the country. As long as our major trading corperations are owned off shore SMEs will remain by far the most important revenue sector.

[mashman]

Of course there is a world of grey area in between both idelogies, not questioning that at all. I also don't question for one second that things are not currently optimally run. I still however do NOT think that giving government more control is a good idea. In fact, this is in support of your ideal for greater freedom of choice. Power to the people I say. This does not occur by greater regulation and/or govt control.

Fair points... but who else is going to take responsibility? The corporation? I understand what you mean in regards to govt and regulation etc... but I'd rather have big brother being a nice big brother instead of one that's only concerned with how much I can earn. Once upon a time govts provided that support and I believe they can do again. The whole game needs to change eh? There is an optimal way of doing things, but we're not doing it because we're too concerned with growth. As an ideology, focussing on growth has not worked so far and never will... and selling private information so that better decisions can be made as to who's best to lend money to is a part of that growth ideology and is therefore doomed to fail. I can't stand that people believe that the recession was caused by a housing bubble and I positively :rofl: at the thought of people believing that if they have my personal information, these sorts of bubbles will be preventable. Targeting credit/debt worthy people is fraught with just as much danger as throwing money around willy nilly on almost credit/debt worthy people. Still ultimately doomed to failure, but I guess that's what confidence is all about. No worries, we'll have all of the information we need to make informed decisions as to how much money to inject into the financial system, what rate to charge it at given the state of the world economy and we can use the law to "regulate" spending etc... Tis all bollocks because govts have lost their teeth. Govts are the new unions.

[mashman]

But on one hand you're preaching freedom of choice, and then when those of lower social economic and/or financial literacy make poor choices you change tunes?

I am no more a fan of politicians which ever colour flag they choose to fly than any of you guys are. However I also refuse for them to have the blame for every undesirable occurence lobbed at them. They make some pretty shit decisions as well as some decent ones, but ultimately people are also greatly let down by their own poor decision making. The issues in the financial markets that spooled up from about 2006 and caused all of that shit in 2008 are a product of greedy financial institutions, but also of people making poor choices (ie ...I'll get a 110% loan for a house even though I only earn peanuts and use the extra 10% to buy a new car because everyone knows property prices always rise over the long term...Yeah right. Yes this was spurned by a loosening of lending regulations, primarily amongst US lenders...and this caused unwise people to make foolish choices, but it also provided more competition in the market place and thus some cheaper financial products for consumers in general.
I argue that instead of legislating and more government control, we need greater consumer education.

Flitting between what can be and what is maybe. I'm more than happy for those lower social economic standing to spend the money they receive on what they want.

That fuck up 5 years ago was down to 1 thing. The plug was pulled on the money supply and there wasn't enough to go around. It's a simple as that. Go ahead and tinfoil hat it all you like, but that is what happened. The fed shut down for 4 days. We make choices based on what we have or can potentially earn, that's how the system works. No one can look into the future and envisage that they are going to lose their job. At the time the choices may have been sound and factors out with their control have changed that. So I wouldn't say people made bad choices necessarily.
Consumer education is a myth. It won't make a blind bit of difference when you lose your income stream.

[mashman]

It takes 2 types of fools to fill this world.
Those who don't know, and do it anyway. Those who do, and do it anyway. While I think I fall under the latter, at-least the former are a quiet lot.

:rofl: might I add a 3rd... those who do know and don't do anything. I'll add my self to that group iffen no one minds :<_<

[Brett]

Where the fuck did you come up with this steaming pile of bullshit?

ACC had (and still have) billions of dollar in cash reserves and are less than 5 - 10 years (depending on the pace of change, which itself depends on who wins elections) from completing a transformation from a pay-as-you-go model to a fully funded model (which means having enough cash on hand TODAY to cover all existing claims for the next 40 years)

The ACC investment arm was/is the single most spectacularly performing investment operation in NZ

Buddy - I don't know where you get your Kool-Aid from but you really need to change suppliers because that one statement has undermined everything you have ever said since due to its mind-bogglingly large level of sheer misinformed ignorance

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/overview-of-acc/PRD_CTRB110932

I will take what you have said and do some greater research.

[avgas]

The ACC investment arm was/is the single most spectacularly performing investment operation in NZ
Come again?
http://www.nzsuperfund.co.nz/index.asp?PageID=2145855927

[Akzle]

With pleasure...but when all of the entrepreneurial people keen to start forward thinking businesses have gone (along with a major underpinning of the future tax base), we'll see where this leaves you. FYI - I'm NOT talking about corporate fat cats, I'm talking about the SME's that account for 50%+ of NZ's economic base.
ahahahaha.
yes. i imagine the only people left will be those tat can actually feed themselves. but anyway. hurryhurry.

The fed shut down for 4 days.
yeah. on this. you got any info on the reserve's contract that is supposed to stop printing american currency on december 12, 2012? (12/12/12) it's like duece-devilry. and one of at least half a dozen valid theories ebhind "the appocalypse"


Come again?
http://www.nzsuperfund.co.nz/index.asp?PageID=2145855927

yeah i was wondering. heiling ACC then quoting ACC as a source. that's like asking me how awesome i am today.

(i'm highly fucking awesome, thanks for asking)

[mashman]

[COLOR="#139922"]yeah. on this. you got any info on the reserve's contract that is supposed to stop printing american currency on december 12, 2012? (12/12/12) it's like duece-devilry. and one of at least half a dozen valid theories ebhind "the appocalypse"

The Federal Reserve Charter expires at the end of March next year... but probably before Ron Paul and Sons' audit the fed Bill comes to life... funny that, but I'll leave the tin foil hat there. The best thing about the money being lent is that the fractional reserve system blows everything out of all proportion. If the fed stops lending $1 million to any given country per day then it does $10 million worth of damage in the real world. Wonder how much they do lend per day... I guess we'll find out if the Audit the fed Bill goes through. 4 days worth of no new money. Enough to expose a dodgy property bubble? T'would seem that that was the case... the rest falls like dominoes. No doubt there were other influences, but the absolutely clincher is halting the production of new money. Who controls the productions of money :rofl:... aye, tis our own fault that recession occurs.