What a fucked up world

[Paul in NZ]

Sigh....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/7497967/Clemency-for-euthanasia-denied

Gutted for you buddy.... Jesus wept thats hard watching....

[Tigadee]

Shit, that's not living, is it? :(

[SMOKEU]

It would be considered cruel and inhumane to make an animal, such as a cat or dog suffer like that. Let the poor fella die in peace if that's what he really wants.

[willytheekid]

:cry:...poor bugger.

...His reaction was just heart breaking

[blue rider]

i hope that somewhere a volunteer from mainland europe is going on a road trip to switzerland via england.

human dignity my lovely backside

[mashman]

It's a shame no judge has the balls to open the door for this.

[Edbear]

It's a shame no judge has the balls to open the door for this.

Or is it Pandora's box?

[Katman]

Or is it Pandora's box?

Trust you to have the most fucked up view it.

[MIXONE]

Poor fucker...

[tigertim20]

Or is it Pandora's box?


Trust you to have the most fucked up view it.

as much as it pains me to say it, he may have a point.
While I think that people who can prove their sanity, and have legitimate reasons for wanting to have control over ending their own suffering, there are those unscrupulous motherfuckers out there who may find ways to pervert the law if it was okayed - although a few places currently allow it, and as far as I know, there havent been any issues thus far?

a topic bound to cause debate!

[Katman]

as much as it pains me to say it, he may have a point.
While I think that people who can prove their sanity, and have legitimate reasons for wanting to have control over ending their own suffering, there are those unscrupulous motherfuckers out there who may find ways to pervert the law if it was okayed - although a few places currently allow it, and as far as I know, there havent been any issues thus far?

a topic bound to cause debate!

Bullshit.

Ed blindly believes in the sanctity of life regardless of circumstances.

He sees no further than that.

Edit: Although he's happy to allow a person to die for want of adequate medical treatment.

[short-circuit]

Who owns your body? The State? God? You?

Fundamentalists / conservatives amuse me no end....nanny state this nanny state that. Nek minit.....

[Edbear]

Trust you to have the most fucked up view it.


as much as it pains me to say it, he may have a point.
While I think that people who can prove their sanity, and have legitimate reasons for wanting to have control over ending their own suffering, there are those unscrupulous motherfuckers out there who may find ways to pervert the law if it was okayed - although a few places currently allow it, and as far as I know, there havent been any issues thus far?

a topic bound to cause debate!

I wondered whether Katman knew what Pandora's box was about. Trust him miss the point but then he's so prejudiced he can't see beyond his personal dislike of me. Silly really.

To make an observation about something is not to give personal opinion on same.

[caspernz]

Or is it Pandora's box?

Agree with you Ed, maybe not for the same reasons as yourself, but strictly speaking the guy isn't dying. His quality of life is utterly deplorable, and I have no doubt that one way or another his life will come to an end peacefully in the near future...and someone will end up in court as a result...:Police:

[Katman]

I wondered whether Katman knew what Pandora's box was about.

Don't worry Ed, I'm well aware that is has nothing to do with a hairy minge.

[Edbear]

Agree with you Ed, maybe not for the same reasons as yourself, but strictly speaking the guy isn't dying. His quality of life is utterly deplorable, and I have no doubt that one way or another his life will come to an end peacefully in the near future...and someone will end up in court as a result...:Police:

It's not hard to see the potential in this. I have been in the position of wanting to die once. No doubt others have too because of severe and unrelenting illness. It is a complex situation and who knows what he has been thinking for so long? How could anyone not have empathy for him?

Yes, I do believe in the sanctity of life and have been involved in situations where these issues have had to be addressed. It is not an easy problem to deal with and we do have ways of helping people cope that work for many patients.

However without knowing this guy personally and what he has gone through to reach this point we can only comment in general terms. Suffice to say no doubt we are very grateful not to have to face this issue ourselves at this time.

[Katman]

I have been in the position of wanting to die once.

Yeah, but that's only 'cos you're a soft cock who can't handle any pain.

You have zero understanding of this guys quality of life.

You're talking through a hole in your head.

Again.

[mashman]

Or is it Pandora's box?

Unfortunately... but I guess that's why they won't open the door, just in case someone gets hurt. He/She asked me to kill her/him and as it is legal I did, prove otherwise? or someone who is depressed wanting to have their life ended? or kids being bullied and instead of killing themselves they can guarantee their death by getting a professional to do it (depression?)? No doubt there's quote a few more reasons... but in the case of those who have had their quality of life absolutely shattered and really don't want to have to deal with it, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to.

[mashman]

Yeah, but that's only 'cos you're a soft cock who can't handle any pain.

You have zero understanding of this guys quality of life.

You're talking through a hole in your head.

Again.

Flame on...

[blue rider]

it will come to pass eventually wether it is called euthanasia or assisted suicide. There are enough numbers out there that want to have a say in how they go, how they preserve their dignity when wanting to end their life.
sanctity of life, bollocks
this is an individual decision, and should be treated as such.
this fellow clearly has had enough, and should have been given his will


this reminds me of a little story some years ago about a nice 70+ year old lady getting a tatto to make sure her wishes are respected.
http://static.stuff.co.nz/1233108507/827/757827.jpg

[Katman]

Suffice to say no doubt we are very grateful not to have to face this issue ourselves at this time.

You are one sanctimonious motherfucker.

[Edbear]

Yeah, but that's only 'cos you're a soft cock who can't handle any pain.

You have zero understanding of this guys quality of life.

You're talking through a hole in your head.

Again.

Lol! For someone who has never met me or knows diddly squat about my life you sure seem adamant you know me absolutely. It must be so good for your ego to stroke it as vigorously as you do but in reality all you prove is that you are a .....


Flame on...

He's a sad case, we should pity him. He can't see himself.

[Edbear]

it will come to pass eventually wether it is called euthanasia or assisted suicide. There are enough numbers out there that want to have a say in how they go, how they preserve their dignity when wanting to end their life.
sanctity of life, bollocks
this is an individual decision, and should be treated as such.
this fellow clearly has had enough, and should have been given his will IMG]

While this case is a bit different for the most part the legislation is unnecessary as for the terminally ill there are medical options.

For this guy those options are not available.

[Katman]

Lol! For someone who has never met me or knows diddly squat about my life you sure seem adamant you know me absolutely.

Fair enough. Know this about me.....

I have been affected personally and deeply by suicide and while I still cannot fathom the hows and the whys, I will never deny the right.

For a religious man you have such a short sighted view of life.

[mashman]

While this case is a bit different for the most part the legislation is unnecessary as for the terminally ill there are medical options.

Technically we're all terminally ill.

[blue rider]

While this case is a bit different for the most part the legislation is unnecessary as for the terminally ill there are medical options.

For this guy those options are not available.

tell this to my mother who literally starved to death.
for the terminally ill there are no options available other then morphine, and often that is not enough.

we have no problem killing the unwanted, for greed, or for resources etc. we - society have a problem with the fact that some people might not want to live anymore....but for what its worth, society, you me and the others usually don't have to live the lives of these people, so what gives.

[Edbear]

Fair enough. Know this about me.....

I have been affected personally and deeply by sucide and while I still cannot fathom the hows and the whys, I will never deny the right.

For a religious man you have such a short sighted view of life.

If you had any personal knowledge of me at all you would have no option but to change your opinion. But then who would you be able to ridicule and give all your red rep to? :msn-wink:

[Katman]

But then who would you be able to ridicule and give all your red rep to? :msn-wink:

You're not that special Ed. There's no shortage of people who deserve red - you just deserve it more than most others on here.

Your fascination with your rep speaks volumes.

[short-circuit]

If you had any personal knowledge of me at all you would have no option but to change your opinion. But then who would you be able to ridicule and give all your red rep to? :msn-wink:

Don't resort to rep Katman - Ed should be publicly ridiculed for our collective entertainment

[skippa1]

Don't resort to rep Katman - Ed should be publicly ridiculed for our collective entertainment

cant we have our cake and eat it too?

[Edbear]

tell this to my mother who literally starved to death.
for the terminally ill there are no options available other then morphine, and often that is not enough.

we have no problem killing the unwanted, for greed, or for resources etc. we - society have a problem with the fact that some people might not want to live anymore....but for what its worth, society, you me and the others usually don't have to live the lives of these people, so what gives.

I did say, "for the most part"... I don't know your mother's situation of course but I have been involved personally with several terminally people- family and friends including my father and each situation was different. However there were medical options for all of them as well as very different attitudes from them to their situation. The biggest factor by far was personal attitude by the one dying.

Just this evening we were notified of a dear friend who has been told she may have only a couple of weeks due to stage four cancer throughout her body. Not diagnosed until Thursday. Sudden and shocking to have it happen to a lady so kind and loving and her husband for whom she has been his rock for fifty years.

[Edbear]

You're not that special Ed. There's no shortage of people who deserve red - you just deserve it more than most others on here.

Your fascination with your rep speaks volumes.


Don't resort to rep Katman - Ed should be publicly ridiculed for our collective entertainment


cant we have our cake and eat it too?

As long as you guys are amused I guess. Does prove the truth about small things, though.

[skippa1]

As long as you guys are amused I guess. Does prove the truth about small things, though.

have a look down Ed, the proof is probably in your hand

[Edbear]

have a look down Ed, the proof is probably in your hand

But when it's in Mrs. Bear's hand...

[blue rider]

I did say, "for the most part"... I don't know your mother's situation of course but I have been involved personally with several terminally people- family and friends including my father and each situation was different. However there were medical options for all of them as well as very different attitudes from them to their situation. The biggest factor by far was personal attitude by the one dying.

Just this evening we were notified of a dear friend who has been told she may have only a couple of weeks due to stage four cancer throughout her body. Not diagnosed until Thursday. Sudden and shocking to have it happen to a lady so kind and loving and her husband for whom she has been his rock for fifty years.

There is no personal attitude to dying when one is rotting from the inside to the outside. there is only stench, screams, pain, and an utterly helpless family that would go and score any drug, absolutely any drug if they would know how to, just to stop the suffering and silence the screams.

This young man, who lost his case, you know what he is afraid of? I am not sure, but i thinks it is something like this: "shit, i will need someone to feed me, to clean me, to wipe my behind, to change my urine bag, to turn me over every couple of hours lest i get sores etc etc for the next 20 - 40 years". And there is no guarantee anyone can give him, that he will receive these services with kindness and a soft hand and that he will not start rotting in his own piss, because eventually in the hospice/nursing home he will end up living, no one gives a dime because they are underpaid, short staffed and why bother, it's not as if he could write a letter to his MP.

His attitude is fine, he is fighting for his dignity and he is not the only one. Its the attitude of the judge that can only be described as cowardly.

[Edbear]

There is no personal attitude to dying when one is rotting from the inside to the outside. there is only stench, screams, pain, and an utterly helpless family that would go and score any drug, absolutely any drug if they would know how to, just to stop the suffering and silence the screams.

This young man, who lost his case, you know what he is afraid of? I am not sure, but i thinks it is something like this: "shit, i will need someone to feed me, to clean me, to wipe my behind, to change my urine bag, to turn me over every couple of hours lest i get sores etc etc for the next 20 - 40 years". And there is no guarantee anyone can give him, that he will receive these services with kindness and a soft hand and that he will not start rotting in his own piss, because eventually in the hospice/nursing home he will end up living, no one gives a dime because they are underpaid, short staffed and why bother, it's not as if he could write a letter to his MP.

His attitude is fine, he is fighting for his dignity and he is not the only one. Its the attitude of the judge that can only be described as cowardly.

A truly horrible situation! I am puzzled that there was nothing that could help her. But not all places are as able as others.

As I heard it in this case, didn't the judge say it was the legislation that was the issue?

[skippa1]

But when it's in Mrs. Bear's hand...

you realise how big her hands are

[Ocean1]

this reminds me of a little story some years ago about a nice 70+ year old lady getting a tatto to make sure her wishes are respected.

I know 4 health professionals with DNR tattoos. One of them is an ED specialist and a cardio-thoracic surgeon. If you had the knowledge and experiences he does you probably would too.

Suicides in the elderly are becoming more common, many of whom pre-empt a perceived inability to make that decision. It’s not that they’ve reached any particular point where they feel they don’t want to live, but that they foresee the time approaching where that choice may be taken from them. In such cases it’s sobering to consider how many years may be taken from them by laws preventing others from helping them die with grace at a time of their choosing.

Laws forbidding suicide are pointless but ultimately harmless as they are treated with the contempt they deserve. Laws forbidding people from helping those perfectly capable of making the decision but unable to physically manage it are evil.

[blue rider]

A truly horrible situation! I am puzzled that there was nothing that could help her. But not all places are as able as others.

As I heard it in this case, didn't the judge say it was the legislation that was the issue?

Germany is as capable as any other place, but cancer aint nice and the days where a doctor would send someone home with a bag full of pills to spend the last days with the family are long gone. in the last couple of days the morphine patches did not diminish the pain anymore. Starvation is not nice, and is apparently quite painful. We wish no one would have to die like this, we would have preferred she had her ways at her own time. but alas, human dignity and sanctity of life means to die like a dog in a ditch and not a day earlier.

the judge was asked to allow a third party to help this young man die without facing prosecution for assisted suicide. the judge was hiding behind legislation to not have to issue what would be a rather personal opinion that might jeopardize said legislation. as i said, a coward, a discussion on this is long overdue and should be in the interest of the person requesting the right, and not in the interest of society, church or personal opinion of others.

we are not the ones suffering.

[Road kill]

Or is it Pandora's box?

Straight out of the Herald.

Good research there fella,,,:not:

[Edbear]

Germany is as capable as any other place, but cancer aint nice and the days where a doctor would send someone home with a bag full of pills to spend the last days with the family are long gone. in the last couple of days the morphine patches did not diminish the pain anymore. Starvation is not nice, and is apparently quite painful. We wish no one would have to die like this, we would have preferred she had her ways at her own time. but alas, human dignity and sanctity of life means to die like a dog in a ditch and not a day earlier.

the judge was asked to allow a third party to help this young man die without facing prosecution for assisted suicide. the judge was hiding behind legislation to not have to issue what would be a rather personal opinion that might jeopardize said legislation. as i said, a coward, a discussion on this is long overdue and should be in the interest of the person requesting the right, and not in the interest of society, church or personal opinion of others.

we are not the ones suffering.

Morphine patches? Why not intravenous Morphine pump? I have seen three to through this and they all had pumps that were adjusted to suit. In this recent case of our dear friend though, the pain specialist sai Smorphine was the wrong choice and switched her to Methodone which immediately brought the pain down to manageable levels. Similar with my daughter recently though she didn't die, it took three days to find a type of Morphine that would work. Heart wrenching to watch. Not everyone can have the same for the same effect and in my own experience Morphine patches only work to a point.

[Edbear]

Straight out of the Herald.

Good research there fella,,,:not:

Interesting as I don't read the Herald and made that comment from my own opinion based on knowledge of how it works.

[tigertim20]

Technically we're all terminally ill.
so... you're a glass half empty kinda guy?

tell this to my mother who literally starved to death.
for the terminally ill there are no options available other then morphine, and often that is not enough.

we have no problem killing the unwanted, for greed, or for resources etc. we - society have a problem with the fact that some people might not want to live anymore....but for what its worth, society, you me and the others usually don't have to live the lives of these people, so what gives.
nor do we have a problem with killing the undesirable, a few places still practice capital punishment

cant we have our cake and eat it too?
not if we are dead at our own request, no.

have a look down Ed, the proof is probably in your hand
and quote of the night goes to . . .



Laws forbidding suicide are pointless but ultimately harmless as they are treated with the contempt they deserve..
ironically, the law allows prosecution of attempted suicide, which I find hilarious. If youre gonna do it, best do it right then, right?

you are correct on the contempt count.

I think many of the people who oppose this issue do so, because they foresee a time when someone they love asks to die, and they have trouble balancing their own desire to spend more time with that person, against the wishes and autonomy of the person in question

[Road kill]

Interesting as I don't read the Herald and made that comment from my own opinion based on knowledge of how it works.

What ?,,youthinasia,,,yeah the old guy in the rest home didn't really know what they were talking about either.

Odd that the article only appeared a couple of days ago and you now claim not to know anything about it.
When you always know about everything else,,,very odd if you ask me.:msn-wink:

[flyingcrocodile46]

It's simple really. People do hard things to save the lives of others (particularly for loved ones). Somebody needs to love the man enough to kill him. The rest can be sorted out in the courts. Getting permission is a lot harder than getting forgiven for things like this.

[blue rider]

Morphine patches? Why not intravenous Morphine pump? I have seen three to through this and they all had pumps that were adjusted to suit. In this recent case of our dear friend though, the pain specialist sai Smorphine was the wrong choice and switched her to Methodone which immediately brought the pain down to manageable levels. Similar with my daughter recently though she didn't die, it took three days to find a type of Morphine that would work. Heart wrenching to watch. Not everyone can have the same for the same effect and in my own experience Morphine patches only work to a point.

She died at home, she could keep absolutly nothing in her body, and everything leaving her had her in screams, as for veins.....my sister is a nurse and she could not find anything to put a needle in. the weight of my mother was around 35 kgs when she died, she was approx 1.68 m tall.

There are moments Ed when no matter what, letting someone go is the right thing to do, and letting someone go before they loose their spirit, their pride, their humanity might be painful for the survivors but it is still the right thing to do.

If dr. can keep someone for weeks doped out on intravenous morphine, they might as well just administer the little bit too much and let the family decide when it is time, and not have everyone wait in despair for the drugged up and empty shell of a body finally giving out.

[Edbear]

What ?,,youthinasia,,,yeah the old guy in the rest home didn't really know what they were talking about either.

Odd that the article only appeared a couple of days ago and you now claim not to know anything about it.
When you always know about everything else,,,very odd if you ask me.:msn-wink:

I don't lie. I do not read the Herald except on occasion if there is nothing else in a waiting room. I never read the article you refer to. Sometimes people speak of their own knowledge and their own mind...

[short-circuit]

Sometimes people speak of their own knowledge and their own mind...

This'll be good.....

[mashman]

Suicides in the elderly are becoming more common, many of whom pre-empt a perceived inability to make that decision. It’s not that they’ve reached any particular point where they feel they don’t want to live, but that they foresee the time approaching where that choice may be taken from them. In such cases it’s sobering to consider how many years may be taken from them by laws preventing others from helping them die with grace at a time of their choosing.

Laws forbidding suicide are pointless but ultimately harmless as they are treated with the contempt they deserve. Laws forbidding people from helping those perfectly capable of making the decision but unable to physically manage it are evil.

Sums it up perfectly, especially the loss of years.


so... you're a glass half empty kinda guy?

Sorry. We're all going to live forever... better? just another fact of life

[Edbear]

She died at home, she could keep absolutly nothing in her body, and everything leaving her had her in screams, as for veins.....my sister is a nurse and she could not find anything to put a needle in. the weight of my mother was around 35 kgs when she died, she was approx 1.68 m tall.

There are moments Ed when no matter what, letting someone go is the right thing to do, and letting someone go before they loose their spirit, their pride, their humanity might be painful for the survivors but it is still the right thing to do.

If dr. can keep someone for weeks doped out on intravenous morphine, they might as well just administer the little bit too much and let the family decide when it is time, and not have everyone wait in despair for the drugged up and empty shell of a body finally giving out.

That's tough. In my case all my veins gradually collapsed and they were startling to get desperate as to where they could tap into. It has taken two years for them to recover enough that they can take a blood test normally but the last infusion I had was a bit of a mission for the Doc. The nurse gave up and called him in.

The overdose method is used more often than let on...

[Edbear]

An interesting ethical argument is brought about. By the fact that modern medical science can postpone death by direct intervention. ie: a person that would normally die, can be kept alive. Is it then a case of killing someone if allowing them to die by withdrawing the means of keeping them alive? Is it killing someone by trying to make their inevitable death as painless as possible?

These are the issues politicians and medical people are wrestling with.

[Ocean1]

These are the issues politicians and medical people are wrestling with.

In spite of the fact that they are issues over which they have no ethical jurisdiction whatsoever.

[Zamiam]

To my way of thinking if we allow the state to tell us what we can do with ourselves then what have we got left?

I watched my farther die of cancer a few years ago. He was a strong proud man and the loss of dignity was the hardest thing for all of us to live with. Both my brother and I promised him that if it got too much for him he only had to ask. Would I have done it? Too bloody right. I loved my old man that much. Thankfully it didn't get to that. I suspect, and thank her with all my heart, that when it go so bad a certain nurse upped his morphine so he slipped away.

[blue rider]

An interesting ethical argument is brought about. By the fact that modern medical science can postpone death by direct intervention. ie: a person that would normally die, can be kept alive. Is it then a case of killing someone if allowing them to die by withdrawing the means of keeping them alive? Is it killing someone by trying to make their inevitable death as painless as possible?

These are the issues politicians and medical people are wrestling with.

as a sprirtual person Ed, is it responsible to keep a 'body' alive when it passed its used by date? how are we killing someone,who otherwise would have died, and in many cases with less pain.

the ethical question should be is it human (menschlich) to keep someone alive at all costs. This is the question that needs to be answered.

and quite frankly politicians wrestle with nothing (they are made of teflon, nothing sticks) and doctors are not going to do or say anything that might make the liable to criminal prosecution (correct term?)


it is society that needs to understand that some just do not wish to live, and that this is their choice. those that can make their own end will do so, those that cant will ask for help.

in any case we don't have to walk a day in their shoes, and we should not judge them, nor condemn them to undue pain and suffering.

we don't have to understand nor like the decision, we only have to respect it.

[Edbear]

In spite of the fact that they are issues over which they have no ethical jurisdiction whatsoever.

Trouble is, who then decides what ethical standard to use? There is so much room for abuse. I think the medical proffessionals are in the best position to judge what is the medical situation regarding how much is in preventing or prolonging inevitable death but there needs to be a strong consensus of qualified opinion backed by medical study first. That is probably the only way of determining what constitutes killing in such a case.

If not the government then who decides the guidelines? We know that in most cases the MP's consult with the experts in order to make decisions, and there is enough of this happening to know it is real despite what people may perceive as unilateral law making. This may be true at times but not in this case I would think.

[Ocean1]

Trouble is, who then decides what ethical standard to use?

Depends, Ed. If it's my life we're talking about then I do.

It really is that simple.

[Edbear]

as a sprirtual person Ed, is it responsible to keep a 'body' alive when it passed its used by date? how are we killing someone,who otherwise would have died, and in many cases with less pain.

the ethical question should be is it human (menschlich) to keep someone alive at all costs. This is the question that needs to be answered.

and quite frankly politicians wrestle with nothing (they are made of teflon, nothing sticks) and doctors are not going to do or say anything that might make the liable to criminal prosecution (correct term?)


it is society that needs to understand that some just do not wish to live, and that this is their choice. those that can make their own end will do so, those that cant will ask for help.

in any case we don't have to walk a day in their shoes, and we should not judge them, nor condemn them to undue pain and suffering.

we don't have to understand nor like the decision, we only have to respect it.

It is not a black or white issue even from the Biblical perspective. The command is not to commit murder which is the predetermined and deliberate killing of a person. As we agree the problem is caused by modern medicine that skews and masks the cause if death and questions the definition of murder.

[Edbear]

Depends, Ed. If it's my life we're talking about then I do.

It really is that simple.

No it is not simple and while you have the right to self determination do you have the right to ask someone else to kill you?

[Zamiam]

Depends, Ed. If it's my life we're talking about then I do.

It really is that simple.

Exactly!

If slavery is illegal, which it is, what right has anyone to tell me what I can or can't do to myself (or ask someone to do for me).

All I can hope is that the sanctimonious pricks end up like the poor bugga that this thread was started about.

[blue rider]

It is not a black or white issue even from the Biblical perspective. The command is not to commit murder which is the predetermined and deliberate killing of a person. As we agree the problem is caused by modern medicine that skews and masks the cause if death and questions the definition of murder.

i would always leave the bible out of these discussions as as both books the old and the new testament are full of killings, murder, gratuitous destruction of otherwise quite healthy people.

all that killing of first borns that never harmed any one comes to mind.

The question is simple, who are we to interfere with the wishes of individuals as to how they want to end their lives.
Anyone in the medical world who would be uncomfortable with rendering such a service need not apply for the vacancy. Surely there would be people, compassionate enough to offer the service as a standard medicinal practice.

Society is just to cowardly to allow for it, because it would end the sanctimonious claptrap of all live is holy. it isn't and it never was.

[Edbear]

i would always leave the bible out of these discussions as as both books the old and the new testament are full of killings, murder, gratuitous destruction of otherwise quite healthy people.

all that killing of first borns that never harmed any one comes to mind.

The question is simple, who are we to interfere with the wishes of individuals as to how they want to end their lives.
Anyone in the medical world who would be uncomfortable with rendering such a service need not apply for the vacancy. Surely there would be people, compassionate enough to offer the service as a standard medicinal practice.

Society is just to cowardly to allow for it, because it would end the sanctimonious claptrap of all live is holy. it isn't and it never was.

In deference to the discussion at hand I would be happy to discuss the Bible in the appropriate forum but suffice to say for now there is a huge amount of misinformation about what the Binle actually says about who did what and why to whom. Even the churches have got it stuffed up but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Ocean1]

No it is not simple and while you have the right to self determination do you have the right to ask someone else to kill you?

I could say I didn't plan on needing to ask someone to do me that service.

It'd be more accurate to say that I'd planned on not needing to ask.

Call it death insurance.

[Edbear]

I could say I didn't plan on needing to ask someone to do me that service.

It'd be more accurate to say that I'd planned on not needing to ask.

Call it death insurance.

That is exactly the problem this guy has.

[scumdog]

Funny how some cretins do all manner of shit risking death in the process and are surprised (briefly!) when it happens to them..

And here's a poor guy that needs it but can't find it.

[mashman]

The thing that really gets me is the negative and hypocritical attitude of, well if it has the potential to be abused, let's not allow it to happen. Well children, if you don't allow it to happen, we'll never know what the result is. Given the shit that people pull these days and get way with legally, assisted suicide, or whatever you want to call it, has the potential to be abused. However people will still murder and courts will still judge. If a medical notary signs it off, then I fail to see why assisted suicide cannot be made lawful given the professional diagnosis they will have made. The "negative" side will happen irrespective of the law, why punish those who want to take the most drastic of ALL measures especially if a professional consultation has taken place?

[blue rider]

In deference to the discussion at hand I would be happy to discuss the Bible in the appropriate forum but suffice to say for now there is a huge amount of misinformation about what the Binle actually says about who did what and why to whom. Even the churches have got it stuffed up but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

as i said, i leave the bible or any other so called holy book out of this discussion as they add no value.

the ethical, moral questions is also a common sense question.: Who are we, as a society, to decide that someone will have to suffer excruciating pain because we as a society deem it "murder/suicide" to have such a person decide on how and when and with the help of whom they want to leave.

Who are we to judge someone who is helping a dearly beloved to leave before the suffering becomes 'bearable' only with large doses of morphium and other otherwise illegal substances.

Who are we to condone such suffering in the name of society, and have so many ill, and sick people suffer and have their families be helpless, just so society can be pure in its decisions?

[oldrider]

With all due respect, given the opportunity to personally administer death to anyone such as this poor guy .... most of us would be found wanting!

Me personally, I could do the killing part quite easily ... it's the living there after that is a bit of an unknown ... it could go to shit on me.

So you can see in my case at least ... it's more about me than him! :mellow:

Administering death in defence or anger is whole new ballgame, I think no sweat! ... complex bunch of cunts aren't we .... selfish too! :shifty:

[Road kill]

With all due respect, given the opportunity to personally administer death to anyone such as this poor guy .... most of us would be found wanting!

Me personally, I could do the killing part quite easily ... it's the living there after that is a bit of an unknown ... it could go to shit on me.

So you can see in my case at least ... it's more about me than him! :mellow:

Administering death in defence or anger is whole new ballgame, I think no sweat! ... complex bunch of cunts aren't we .... selfish too! :shifty:

In the right circumstances,it wouldn't bother me in the slightest,after all it would be at the request of the individual and it would be ,,,clean and tidy as it were.

Killing somebody in anger, self defence,or by accident on the other hand would leave some serious ghosts to deal with for me.

I would always be left with the thought that I could of just run away,I could of done something differently,,,and anger,,well that speaks for it'self.

Complex sure,,selfish ?,,,well nobody else is going to paddle our canoe or deal with the flack if we tip out.

[Road kill]

The thing that really gets me is the negative and hypocritical attitude of, well if it has the potential to be abused, let's not allow it to happen. Well children, if you don't allow it to happen, we'll never know what the result is. Given the shit that people pull these days and get way with legally, assisted suicide, or whatever you want to call it, has the potential to be abused. However people will still murder and courts will still judge. If a medical notary signs it off, then I fail to see why assisted suicide cannot be made lawful given the professional diagnosis they will have made. The "negative" side will happen irrespective of the law, why punish those who want to take the most drastic of ALL measures especially if a professional consultation has taken place?

I was prescribed a drug that was totally incompatable with one I was already taking,,just last week.
It even said as much on the frigging box,,,yet this so called professional who had himself prescribed the stuff I was already on "just missed that".
I have no issue with the argument of being able to decide for ours selves.
But I'd be very carefull about just who the "professional consultant" was.

Funny story,
One of the lecturers on a training course I attended last year had only one leg,,so being the nosey cunt I asked how he lost the other one,,,"medical misdiagnosis".
Ok,,,,not so funny if it's your leg.:shit:

[mashman]

I was prescribed a drug that was totally incompatable with one I was already taking,,just last week.
It even said as much on the frigging box,,,yet this so called professional who had himself prescribed the stuff I was already on "just missed that".
I have no issue with the argument of being able to decide for ours selves.
But I'd be very carefull about just who the "professional consultant" was.

Funny story,
One of the lecturers on a training course I attended last year had only one leg,,so being the nosey cunt I asked how he lost the other one,,,"medical misdiagnosis".
Ok,,,,not so funny if it's your leg.:shit:

Tis a shame that these sorts of things happen and as you say sometimes mistakes are easy to make... all you can do is be glad that it didn't cost you your life. Several years ago my step mum was diagnosed with fibroid cysts despite breast cancer running in the family. 9 months later she woke on the saturday to see that her eye balls had turned yellow. On the thursday she died. Similar to my recently deceased step father... although he suffered for 9 months and at one point they couldn't figure out where the extra pint of blood they pumped into him had gone. They did find out when they removed a football sized tumour from the top of his stomach. The hospital lost his records and he dropped off the grid at one point, system issues they said... and the list goes on and all I could do was to listen as both my mum and dad told me of their experiences at the hands of the medical fraternity. Oddly enough though, both accepted that mistakes had been made... ra ra ra ra I'd go into my sisters issues with her first littlun but all turned out well, even if the cunt of a Doc put the fear of god into her, or my mums journey through the HRT alphabet of pills to take.

The only thing we can do is to do things better. Instead of this shot in the dark nonsense that we apply, I'd rather see us all baselined (every month maybe) so that when we do get ill the medical professionals will have a much clearer picture of what is likely wrong... hell they may even see it coming and prevention instead of illness will reign... but hey, that'd cost way too much money and human beings just aren't worth it.

[MSTRS]

Obviously it's not a one-size-fits-all situation, but sooner or later, TPTB will have to stop being so fucking self-righteous and pass a law allowing 'assisted suicide'.
The ludicrous situation we have now (at least in hospitals etc) is a doctor cannot administer morphine (say) to kill someone, but they can administer as much as they like to treat the pain - knowing that the dosage will kill. How fucked up is that?
As for Edbear and his 'sanctity of life'...BULLSHIT. Change that to 'dignity of life' and the whole emphasis changes to something much more realistic and introduces the concept of 'humane' to how we treat humans.

[jasonu]

Fair enough. Know this about me.....

I have been affected personally and deeply by suicide


Was it your own suicide by chance?

[Katman]

Don't give up your day job.

[Maki]

With all due respect, given the opportunity to personally administer death to anyone such as this poor guy .... most of us would be found wanting!

Me personally, I could do the killing part quite easily ... it's the living there after that is a bit of an unknown ... it could go to shit on me.

So you can see in my case at least ... it's more about me than him! :mellow:

Administering death in defence or anger is whole new ballgame, I think no sweat! ... complex bunch of cunts aren't we .... selfish too! :shifty:

Those who are unable to do the humane thing and end his suffering are the ones found wanting and they are living in the there after and it has gone to shit on them.

Yes, we are very selfish indeed. We will condemn others do endure years of the most horrific suffering because it would give us a twinge if our perverted moral views were to be contradicted. Keeping people alive against their will in miserable circumstances is the greatest crime of our times. Advances in medical science have enabled us to do this, but sadly our moral compass has failed to keep pace...

[duckonin]

For some of us, the day may come where we wished we had thought with more foresight.:yes:

Go for a walk through some rest homes. Ahhhh. those very persons will tell you personally, "please let me go leave me alone". Then you stand back with compassion and nod your head.

Jezz if you were an animal 'and we all are' some person would put you down to put you out of your misery.

I am 100% in favour of deciding my own demise.

[tigertim20]

given this a little thought.
ok. so given the animal welfare act,wilful assaults against an animal can result in up to five years in Jail, reckless assaults a maximum of three years.
see here.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2010/0118/latest/DLM2747709.html?search=ta_act%40bill_A_ac%40bc%40a cur%40anif%40aase%40bcur%40bena_ac%40bc%40rn_25_a&p=4

For assaults on a human, like common assault the maximim period of imprisonment is one year in jail
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329385.html?search=ta_act_C_ac%40acur%40anif_an %40bn%40rn_25_a&p=6

for an aggravated assault against another human, the maximum sentence is three years in Jail.
see here http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329381.html?search=ta_act_C_ac%40acur%40anif_an %40bn%40rn_25_a&p=6

Ok. SO we can see that clearly, in NZ we draw parallels between the treatment of animals, and the treatment of human beings right?
Ok. so it seems that we apply the same rights of respect, dignity, and fair treatment to animals and humans alike.

So why is it then, that if you have an animal that is suffering, and you DONT end its life humanely, you can be charged with an offence for prolonging its suffering
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/DLM50404.html?search=ta_act%40bill_A_ac%40bc%40acu r%40anif%40aase%40bcur%40bena_ac%40bc%40rn_25_a&p=4
which comes with a penalty of up to a year for NOT ending the suffering
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/DLM50423.html?search=ta_act%40bill_A_ac%40bc%40acu r%40anif%40aase%40bcur%40bena_ac%40bc%40rn_25_a&p=4

but with a human, we are legally obligated to continue the suffering of the person, and ending it is likely to result in prosecution?

[willytheekid]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/7530495/Locked-in-sufferer-Tony-Nicklinson-dies

"One of his daughters said on her father's Twitter account that he died "peacefully this morning of natural causes." His family said later that he died of pneumonia.

Police said they would not be investigating Nicklinson's death. "We can confirm he passed away," a police spokesman said on customary condition of anonymity. "His death certificate has been signed by a doctor, so it is not a matter for Wiltshire Police or the coroner."

:bye:
R.I.P Tony
So glad this guy went peacefully with his family close by...and that the local police etc will not be investigating and placing further hardship on his family (:msn-wink:, good on them!)

[Edbear]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/7530495/Locked-in-sufferer-Tony-Nicklinson-dies

"One of his daughters said on her father's Twitter account that he died "peacefully this morning of natural causes." His family said later that he died of pneumonia.

Police said they would not be investigating Nicklinson's death. "We can confirm he passed away," a police spokesman said on customary condition of anonymity. "His death certificate has been signed by a doctor, so it is not a matter for Wiltshire Police or the coroner."

:bye:
R.I.P Tony
So glad this guy went peacefully with his family close by...and that the local police etc will not be investigating and placing further hardship on his family (:msn-wink:, good on them!)

+1. A sad situation for all.

[Edbear]

given this a little thought.
ok. so given the animal welfare act,wilful assaults against an animal can result in up to five years in Jail, reckless assaults a maximum of three years.
see here.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2010/0118/latest/DLM2747709.html?search=ta_act%40bill_A_ac%40bc%40a cur%40anif%40aase%40bcur%40bena_ac%40bc%40rn_25_a&p=4

For assaults on a human, like common assault the maximim period of imprisonment is one year in jail
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329385.html?search=ta_act_C_ac%40acur%40anif_an %40bn%40rn_25_a&p=6

for an aggravated assault against another human, the maximum sentence is three years in Jail.
see here http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329381.html?search=ta_act_C_ac%40acur%40anif_an %40bn%40rn_25_a&p=6

Ok. SO we can see that clearly, in NZ we draw parallels between the treatment of animals, and the treatment of human beings right?
Ok. so it seems that we apply the same rights of respect, dignity, and fair treatment to animals and humans alike.

So why is it then, that if you have an animal that is suffering, and you DONT end its life humanely, you can be charged with an offence for prolonging its suffering
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/DLM50404.html?search=ta_act%40bill_A_ac%40bc%40acu r%40anif%40aase%40bcur%40bena_ac%40bc%40rn_25_a&p=4
which comes with a penalty of up to a year for NOT ending the suffering
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/DLM50423.html?search=ta_act%40bill_A_ac%40bc%40acu r%40anif%40aase%40bcur%40bena_ac%40bc%40rn_25_a&p=4

but with a human, we are legally obligated to continue the suffering of the person, and ending it is likely to result in prosecution?


I don't think it's a case of being legally obligated to continue the suffering but that murder is illegal in this country. So the issue is what is murder in the case of the terminally ill?

[Paul in NZ]

The difference is that murder is taking someones life without their consent....

[Katman]

+1. A sad situation for all.

Flip, flop....

[oneofsix]

The difference is that murder is taking someones life without their consent....

and torture is to force someone to suffer pain.

What is the differentiation of harm? as in first do no harm.

If you are going to die anyhow, and apart from modern medicine would have already done so why not, providing the patient agrees, enable the passing to be as pain free and dignified as possible.

[Paul in NZ]

John Key has come out in broad support of euthanasia and I actually respect him for that.

Logically - if you leave religion out of it - it makes no sense to needlessly prolong life in certain situations. In fact assisting nature along is the decent and humane thing to do and the argument that people will be hurried along too quickly by rapacious grandkids etc is untried scaremongering. Where it get scary is when someone is faced with (say) loosing their legs and initially they think their quality of life is so diminished that they don't want to continue despite others leading productive lives with the same limitations. Obviously there needs to be some kind of test applied...

What I find utterly repulsive about all of this is that Governments (or at least politicians) who will not embrace debate on it will support wars and research into new weapons. Churches are worse - almost every army thats gone into battle has managed to find a Padre to assure them that 'God's on our side' despite it meaning the deaths of many innocents... How can we support institutional violence on one hand yet with hold some poor tortured soul the right to die on the other.... Its a case of its OK for us to kill lots of people but we won't let you die because all life is sacred.... Probably discussed over a nice steak dinner....

Its wrong....

Anyway - I'm glad his suffering has ended and no one is investigating it.... I'm sad for his needless pain and his families grief...

[Edbear]

The difference is that murder is taking someones life without their consent....

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329311.html

[oneofsix]

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM329311.html


Ian Powell, director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists, which represents senior doctors, said he did not think euthanasia was happening in hospitals the way Mr Key made it out to be.

"The situation is much more complex than that . . . Sometimes continuing a treatment can prolong the agony for a patient, and not even keep the patient alive.

"By not prolonging the agony . . . even though the intent is not for the patient to die, it is sometimes a consequence."
By your snippet of legislation it is but then again that doesn't tell the whole story does it otherwise lawyers would go broke.

[Edbear]

By your snippet of legislation it is but then again that doesn't tell the whole story does it otherwise lawyers would go broke.

Hence the dilemma facing Drs. It should be a rare case that there is nothing they can do though and perhaps this case was one of those. In my father's. Add they offered to withdraw the anti-biotic drip that was the only thing keeping him alive. But despite being a literal skeleton and do weak breathing exhausted him he wanted them to keep it going. He died three days later.

[Drew]

Who cares, as long as we dont let those faggots get married our moral fibre is upheld!

I admit to suppressing a sob when I watched that vid, bloody awful it were.

The guy has already lost his dignity as near as I can see, let him have some fucking peace!

[mashman]

I wonder if anyone has asked the insurance company's what their stance on assisted suicide is?

[Drew]

I wonder if anyone has asked the insurance company's what their stance on assisted suicide is?Go check your policy, no pay out for murder is common I think.

Might be wrong, was pretty drunk when the brainy types were talking about it.

[James Deuce]

There's no dilemma facing Drs, they kill people every day, they refuse to treat people who do not conform to a standard diagnostic process and they placebo the fuck out of people who are going to die anyway. They go great guns with cancer treatment because every cancer case is a live experiment allowing the collection of more data based on genotype, height, weight, age, background, social circumstances etc.

Likewise transplant technology. Every case is just an experiment for the Asperger's ridden surgeon to play with a victim and the pharmaceutical company to try out ever more expensive anti-rejection drugs.

[Mom]

Towards the end of my Moms life she often said "the sooner my heart stops beating the better", it was not an easy thing to listen to. It was understandable though, as she was a very sick woman, in constant pain, and suffering terrible side effects from her radiation treatment.

I had to sit here and watch her deteriorate, it was a horrible time for all of us. We could all see her quality of life getting less and less with each week that passed, and I grew fearful she would die alone and in a terrible mess. I lived over 2 hours drive from her. She refused to call for help (Life Link) as she knew that the next time she went to hospital it would mean the end of her independance, she was too sick to live alone. Of course there came a time that she had no choice.

Many weeks in hospital getting firstly stabilised, then moving to testing and then with a lot of support the decision to move to a rest home. While she was in hospital she improved a little as she was given and made to take her meds on time, she was given food to eat, and supplements to drink (which she nibbled on and sipped at) and there were people there to help her when she got really sick. She still wanted her heart to stop beating, she used to tell anyone that listened, she really had had enough of being unwell, but was looking forward to moving closer to me and her grandchildren.

The day before I was to pick her up she was her usual self, overnight something went wrong and I got a call in the moring to gather the family and come quickly as she had deteriorated badly. My poor Mommy was in a bad way when we arrived, and it was very obvious that she was morbidly sick this time. The doctors were wonderful and explained everything to us and made sure that Mom was presrcibed all the medication that might be needed on an as required basis.

So we waited, and loved her, and looked after her. We medicated her when she needed it. I was so happy that I could be there to care for her at that time of her life, and that I would be there to love her to death as I wished to do. I was happy for her, as her wish was about to be granted and her poor old heart was going to stop soon. Then she spoke her last words to me, "I dont want to die". Floored me, nothing worse than that feeling, it was too late, she was going to die and there was nothing anyone could do.

Then I realised she was frightened of the process of dying, not of death itself. Thankfully I had the suppport of the doctors and nurses caring for Mom, and the medications prescribed that could be given to Mom to ease any discomfort, of whatever nature she might experience as the end of her life arrived. Wonderfully peaceful passing for my Mom, and a HUGE hole left in my life.

If you want to call it, then I killed my Mom. I was the one that asked for all the drugs that were given to her in the last 24 hours of her life. The doctors told me she was dying and gave me the tools to make her passing easy and quick.

John Key says euthanasia is already practised in New Zealand, he takes a very simplistic view of the issue, it is one I agree with.

Call it as you wish, this poor man finally got his peace. Poor bastard had to go through all that before he got sick enough to die. Sad, sad times for his whanau.

[tigertim20]

I don't think it's a case of being legally obligated to continue the suffering but that murder is illegal in this country. So the issue is what is murder in the case of the terminally ill?

I dont think you quite grasped my post.

get rid of the word murder and try again.

[Edbear]

I dont think you quite grasped my post.

get rid of the word murder and try again.

Perhaps you could elaborate? Mom's post highlighted the ability of Drs. to assist, and I think t is more the Hypocratic Oath that affects how they treat the sick and injured rather than the law.

[jonbuoy]

Would the SPCA consider it animal abuse to keep a terminally ill dog alive if it was in so much pain that it whimpered through the day and night?

[Paul in NZ]

Well sometimes it works out....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7669610/Husband-discharged-over-wifes-suicide

More here

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833766

Damn sad....

[oneofsix]

Well sometimes it works out....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7669610/Husband-discharged-over-wifes-suicide

More here

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833766

Damn sad....

Poor bastard having to leave his wife to die alone, very brave couple. Really struck me when I scrolled up and read MOM's story, at least she and her mother had the comfort of each other, well done MOM

[Banditbandit]

Don't worry Ed, I'm well aware that is has nothing to do with a hairy minge.

Oh ... Bugga ... I was going to ask for pictures ... :innocent: