If you are scared of bullets

[Maha]

....don't join the armed forces.
When the Country you are serving, is asked to align with other country's in a war torn area of the world, there is reasonable chance it won end well for all.
You can't run home just because you have lost a few points.
Stay and fight on for those mates that have fallen before you. Thats your job.
(directed at those who call to for the troops to be brought home)

The NZ solders serving overseas, are brave young men and women.

[FJRider]

The troops there know that.

[Maha]

The troops there know that.

Yes. I have since added (directed at those who call to for the troops to be brought home) for those that would miss that....
It is what I would say to the over reactive.

[Edbear]

Yes. I have since added (directed at those who call to for the troops to be brought home) for those that would miss that....
It is what I would say to the over reactive.

Wotchu talkin' 'bout Willis..? People don't over-react..! :eek5:

[imdying]

The NZ solders serving overseas, are brave young men.That is likely to be the case, but they're also puppets who're dying unnecessarily in a war that has nothing to do with them or this country. But it's sure better that we send those sacrifices to the slaughter than having to spend more on commodities :yes:

[5150]

Heros... they sure are. But who's dirty war are they fighting?

[Maki]

....don't join the armed forces.
When the Country you are serving, is asked to align with other country's in a war torn area of the world, there is reasonable chance it won end well for all.
You can't run home just because you have lost a few points.
Stay and fight on for those mates that have fallen before you. Thats your job.
(directed at those who call to for the troops to be brought home)

The NZ solders serving overseas, are brave young men.

What good will staying and fighting do for the fallen mates? Will it put a smile on their faces? Will it make their sacrifice more "meaningful"?

I find asking people to risk their lives for the purpose of appeasing the USA immoral. Of course they did join the armed forces and in that case they have agreed to do as they are told and fulfill the most outrageous mission. They are essentially slaves.

Given the NZ track record I wonder why anyone would agree to join the armed forces. You risk death, disease and even deformities to your descendants.

[nudemetalz]

Good thread, Maha.

On a sad note,..I see 3 more of our soldiers have been killed :(

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/7507715/Woman-among-three-Kiwi-soldiers-killed

[Paul in NZ]

Heros... they sure are. But who's dirty war are they fighting?

Thats actually really hard to define... Just about every army thats gone into that hell hole has never been short of a darn good reason to do so. (darned good reasons are of course entirely subjective)

I'll bet you a goats skin full of processed opium poppies that your average local is heartily sick of the whole bloody thing as well and equally sick of religious nut jobs telling them what for. About the only people not queuing up to have a lash are the Chinese...

It would be the ultimate in bad luck to be born there... You are on a hiding to nothing no matter what...

[HenryDorsetCase]

The NZ solders serving overseas, are brave young men/women.

Absolutely.


The question as to whtether, and what interests are served by them being there is the question though.

[HenryDorsetCase]

also. anyone sensible is scared of bullets.

[Edbear]

also. anyone sensible is scared of bullets.

Or anything that small travelling that fast... :yes:

[Bald Eagle]

While it is a tragedy for the families concerned, the young men probably joined up for the subsidized trade training and the World travel.

They neglected to realise however that it is part of the basic job description of a soldier to kill or be killed.

[NighthawkNZ]

When the Country you are serving, is asked to align with other country's in a war torn area of the world, there is reasonable chance it won end well for all.


I find asking people to risk their lives for the purpose of appeasing the USA immoral.

We didn't go in to Afghanistan under pressure form the US and or any other country for that... we went in under a UN mandate for peace keeping and rebuilding. Big difference...

Problem is many people forget is before you send in the peace keepers, you need to have peace and to get peace you need the peace makers make peace.

Anyway the soldiers are doing their job, they do know the dangers, they joined the NZDF to protect your freedoms and the freedoms of NZ, and our interests. If you disagree what our intersts are or your freedoms are, take it up with the people that sent them their, don't down our troops, but support them.

RIP and thank you to all that have served in the past and in the future.

[oneofsix]

We didn't go in to Afghanistan under pressure form the US and or any other country for that... we went in under a UN mandate for peace keeping and rebuilding. Big difference...

Problem is many people forget is before you send in the peace keepers, you need to have peace and to get peace you need the peace makers make peace.

Anyway the soldiers are doing their job, they do know the dangers, they joined the NZDF to protect your freedoms and the freedoms of NZ, and our interests. If you disagree what our intersts are or your freedoms are, take it up with the people that sent them their, don't down our troops, but support them.

RIP and thank you to all that have served in the past and in the future.

"peace keepers" are sent in once the war has finished but before peace is stable. The hope being they can stabilise the peace. in Afghanistan the Taliban never agreed the war was over.

I fully agree with your last two paragraphs.

[SMOKEU]

Hopefully they would have taken out a few ragheads first. It affects us all. The more terrorists that remain, the more that infest otherwise civilized countries and spread their filth onto the rest of us. RIP NZ soldiers.

[bogan]

Anyway the soldiers are doing their job, they do know the dangers, they joined the NZDF to protect your freedoms and the freedoms of NZ, and our interests. If you disagree what our intersts are or your freedoms are, take it up with the people that sent them their, don't down our troops, but support them.

How do you support them, and try and bring them home? "You're doing a really good job guys, but just quit it, ok" Kind of mixed messages :confused: Its a democracy, weight of public opinion gets things done, you can't influence public opinion without a clear message.

[Hoon]

While it is a tragedy for the families concerned, the young men probably joined up for the subsidized trade training and the World travel.

They neglected to realise however that it is part of the basic job description of a soldier to kill or be killed.

Wrong but way to generalize based on what little you know. These guys are rifleman in an Infantry Battalion, not mechanics or chefs. They joined the Army to shoot people and get shot at - that is their trade. To say they have never once considered their own mortality even though the risks to this are thrashed into them on a daily basis is simply stupid.

[bogan]

Hopefully they would have taken out a few ragheads first. It affects us all. The more terrorists that remain, the more that infest otherwise civilized countries and spread their filth onto the rest of us. RIP NZ soldiers.

I know right, we can't let their discriminatory ideals influence paragons of morality like yourself :facepalm:

[SMOKEU]

I know right, we can't let their discriminatory ideals influence paragons of morality like yourself :facepalm:

I'm glad you understand.

[Maki]

Hopefully they would have taken out a few ragheads first. It affects us all. The more terrorists that remain, the more that infest otherwise civilized countries and spread their filth onto the rest of us. RIP NZ soldiers.

It will please the powers that be in the USA that all the billions of $ they spend on spreading lies, propaganda and dis-information are actually working.

If you want to get rid of terror and terrorists, then you must eradicate the root causes. War is one of them, injustice another, and so is the spread of lies and dis-information. Fighting a war on terror is like fighting fire by pouring gasoline on it.

[SMOKEU]

It will please the powers that be in the USA that all the billions of $ they spend on spreading lies, propaganda and dis-information are actually working.

If you want to get rid of terror and terrorists, then you must eradicate the root causes. War is one of them, injustice another, and so is the spread of lies and dis-information. Fighting a war on terror is like fighting fire by pouring gasoline on it.

Do you want to know what the root of the problem really is? Islam. That's the cause of all the war in the middle east and north Africa. Islam is an extremely violent religious cult which openly encourages hatred and violence toward non believers. Muslims are encouraged to wage Jihad (holy war) to non Muslims.

If you take a look at southern Africa, for example, those nations are all impoverished, but since Islam has not taken over as the dominant religion, those nations are relatively peaceful in comparison to the Islamic nations whose problems are fuelled mainly by religion.

[nudemetalz]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8425/7819266960_378b149597.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/85323924@N05/7819266960/)

[bogan]

Do you want to know what the root of the problem really is? Islam. That's the cause of all the war in the middle east and north Africa. Islam is an extremely violent religious cult which openly encourages hatred and violence toward non believers. Muslims are encouraged to wage Jihad (holy war) to non Muslims.

If you take a look at southern Africa, for example, those nations are all impoverished, but since Islam has not taken over as the dominant religion, those nations are relatively peaceful in comparison to the Islamic nations whose problems are fuelled mainly by religion.


It will please the powers that be in the USA that all the billions of $ they spend on spreading lies, propaganda and dis-information are actually working.

In some its easier than others! I don't think we'll ever get the full story, that can only come from the people over there. And I think their best chance of giving that, is in a democracy encouraging freedom of speech.

[zique]

Do you want to know what the root of the problem really is? Islam. That's the cause of all the war in the middle east and north Africa. Islam is an extremely violent religious cult which openly encourages hatred and violence toward non believers. Muslims are encouraged to wage Jihad (holy war) to non Muslims.

If you take a look at southern Africa, for example, those nations are all impoverished, but since Islam has not taken over as the dominant religion, those nations are relatively peaceful in comparison to the Islamic nations whose problems are fuelled mainly by religion.


I think the root of the problem is the people practicing Islam,it is not the religion itself.These terrorists have been brain washed by some other religious fanatics to follow the koran,they use religion to wage a war to kill all who are non-muslims (Nigeria recently).
In other countries where muslims live,they do live peacefully because the leaders there encourage peace etc.It is the nutter islamic leaders that are the problem.

And while I agree our soldiers are doing a good job,it is so sad to see them die.One soldier told me what they think "either you kill the enemy or he kills you,but someone has to die"..
But in a war like that,with so many local victims (like in Afghanistan),when a family member is killed,even accidentally,the anger and loss felt by the family is used by the Islamic leaders to encourage them to avenge their family's loss,to kill the infidels...so really when one dies,another (or 10 more) replaces him.It is a never-ending cycle.

God Bless our soldiers though,where-ever they go,they do us proud:)

[SMOKEU]

I think the root of the problem is the people practicing Islam,it is not the religion itself.These terrorists have been brain washed by some other religious fanatics to follow the koran,they use religion to wage a war to kill all who are non-muslims (Nigeria recently).
In other countries where muslims live,they do live peacefully because the leaders there encourage peace etc.It is the nutter islamic leaders that are the problem.


They don't always live peacefully in smaller numbers. Don't forget about the London bombings a few years back. When they live in non Muslim majority countries, they import their extremist beliefs with them and demand that their religion is respected. Just look at the video below. An Islamic takeover of Europe WILL happen if the problem isn't addressed immediately. I guarantee it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THrltK9cGo8

[imdying]

Wrong but way to generalize based on what little you know. These guys are rifleman in an Infantry Battalion, not mechanics or chefs. They joined the Army to shoot people and get shot at - that is their trade. To say they have never once considered their own mortality even though the risks to this are thrashed into them on a daily basis is simply stupid.I think one was a medic, and I'm pretty sure that person didn't actually join to shoot people. I could be wrong, I'm just relating what a friend of theirs has said to me this morning.

[oneofsix]

I think one was a medic, and I'm pretty sure that person didn't actually join to shoot people. I could be wrong, I'm just relating what a friend of theirs has said to me this morning.

Looks like you are correct


Baker, from Christchurch, joined as a medic and went to the Solomons Islands in 2010. She received a chief of army commendation in 2011 for her professionalism and courage.

[Akzle]

....don't join the armed forces.
When the Country you are serving, is asked to align with other country's in a war torn area of the world, there is reasonable chance it won end well for all.
You can't run home just because you have lost a few points.
Stay and fight on for those mates that have fallen before you. Thats your job.
(directed at those who call to for the troops to be brought home)

The NZ solders serving overseas, are brave young men/women.

HEY.
if they're not over there securing pharmac's supply of heroin, who will?

you're not seriously suggesting that a government should PAY a FAIR PRICE for their drugs.. why else would we have an army?!

[Brett]

....don't join the armed forces.
When the Country you are serving, is asked to align with other country's in a war torn area of the world, there is reasonable chance it won end well for all.
You can't run home just because you have lost a few points.
Stay and fight on for those mates that have fallen before you. Thats your job.
(directed at those who call to for the troops to be brought home)

The NZ solders serving overseas, are brave young men/women.

I doubt many, if any, in the armed services would argue against you.

Edit - yes there may be agenda's behind this war that we don't all agree with, but let's not forget the attrocities that have been perpetrated against everyday people in nations like Afghanistan. Women and children mostly. Any nation where women have so few rights and are treated so incredibly badly deserve to have more powerful nations come in and fight for their justice. It's just a pity that their is so much other political bullshit in there as well.

[huff3r]

I think one was a medic, and I'm pretty sure that person didn't actually join to shoot people. I could be wrong, I'm just relating what a friend of theirs has said to me this morning.

That may be true, but I think you'll also find a medics job is to help the injured, no matter where or when. So they know well they could be called upon to provide assistance right in the middle of a firefight.

Also, they make it very clear during the Oath/Affirmation during AARC that you are giving your life to your country, that you will fight and you will die for the rest of us. Nobody thinks it will happen to them, but they all certainly know it's possible.

RIP. Lest we forget.

[Maki]

They don't always live peacefully in smaller numbers. Don't forget about the London bombings a few years back. When they live in non Muslim majority countries, they import their extremist beliefs with them and demand that their religion is respected. Just look at the video below. An Islamic takeover of Europe WILL happen if the problem isn't addressed immediately. I guarantee it.

Is your name by any chance Breivik? Don't forget the London bombings but don't jump to conclusions about them either. There are large state funded organizations that have staged false flag attacks of this nature and will no doubt do so again in order to influence the gullible. What state funded organizations? Look for who's cause is served and who gains and you will see.

http://july7bombing.blogspot.co.nz/

[Road kill]

I wanted to join the army in 73 but they had only just got over Vietnam and didn't need any more canon fodder,so they said bugger off.

Quite glad they did now since I've seen what a .308 does to the average soft skin.

Wish the yanks would just nuke that place,,in the long run it would save millions,,,both types.<_<

[ellipsis]

...im sure if the yanks glassed over the middle east and cleared it of the muslim brothers, a little spot called Indonesia which has even more muslims than the Middle East would get twitchy...they dont seem to like us western cunts either...much...

[SMOKEU]

...im sure if the yanks glassed over the middle east and cleared it of the muslim brothers, a little spot called Indonesia which has even more muslims than the Middle East would get twitchy...they dont seem to like us western cunts either...much...

Indonesia certainly is the country with the largest number of terrorists. The fact that so many of them travel to Australia is frightening to say the least.

[FJRider]

Wotchu talkin' 'bout Willis..? People don't over-react..! :eek5:

I RESENT THAT ..... :angry2:




oh wait ... :shutup:

[jafar]

It will please the powers that be in the USA that all the billions of $ they spend on spreading lies, propaganda and dis-information are actually working.

If you want to get rid of terror and terrorists, then you must eradicate the root causes. War is one of them, injustice another, and so is the spread of lies and dis-information. Fighting a war on terror is like fighting fire by pouring gasoline on it.

You missed Religion, Money, Power, Poverty, Revenge & Food. People have & will continue to fight for all these things. :pinch:

[jafar]

Indonesia certainly is the country with the largest number of terrorists. The fact that so many of them travel to Australia is frightening to say the least.

You are making it sound like every Muslim is a terrorist , when it fact the vast majority of muslims are peaceful & have no wish to be involved in terror.

[tbs]

A friend of mine is an Army chaplain who did a tour of Afghanistan a year or so back. He told me quite a lot about what the job was over there. I think our soldiers know exactly what they are doing, and I don't think it has anything to do with fighting someone else's dirty war. It has a lot more to do with attempting to put some infrastructure back into a country that has just been absolutely devastated by years of war. They are the ones on the ground seeing the effects of violence, meeting, getting to know and to trying to help the locals who so badly need it. I think maybe they feel the risk is worth it for the sake of the people they are trying to help.

Pretty noble if you ask me.

[Akzle]

Indonesia certainly is the country with the largest number of terrorists. The fact that so many of them travel to Australia is frightening to say the least.

you'd have to be american (ignorant) to believe that. hilarious. i suppose 9/11 was the work of these "terrorists" too?

(what about building 7?)


as for the whys and wherefores, yes the NZ army is mostly used for clean-up, "peace-keeping" and "provincial reconstruction"
but really, the best thing any army could do for that country is fuck right off.

[FJRider]

I think one was a medic, and I'm pretty sure that person didn't actually join to shoot people. I could be wrong, I'm just relating what a friend of theirs has said to me this morning.

Medics get weapons training too ... they need to be able to defend themselves.

Few join the army to shoot people. But they ALL know they may have to. Usually more die in training ... than on active service (a war zone) ... but they are all well aware they may be killed.

[SMOKEU]

Few join the army to shoot people. But they ALL know they may have to. Usually more die in training ... than on active service (a war zone) ... but they are all well aware they may be killed.

I thought people join the army for some IRL Call of Duty lulz.

[FJRider]

I thought people join the army for some IRL Call of Duty lulz.

Most join for the cheap booze ... <_<

[Road kill]

A friend of mine is an Army chaplain who did a tour of Afghanistan a year or so back. He told me quite a lot about what the job was over there. I think our soldiers know exactly what they are doing, and I don't think it has anything to do with fighting someone else's dirty war. It has a lot more to do with attempting to put some infrastructure back into a country that has just been absolutely devastated by years of war. They are the ones on the ground seeing the effects of violence, meeting, getting to know and to trying to help the locals who so badly need it. I think maybe they feel the risk is worth it for the sake of the people they are trying to help.

Pretty noble if you ask me.

Years of war ?

Yeah like about a thousand years if not more.

Honestly,,do you really think a hand full of kiwi's is going to change anything over there that the terrorists,freedom fighters,or what ever you want to call them are not going to trash the minite the "good guys"<_< finally do leave.

Come on man, these people can not be beaten by conventional methods and no amount of good intensions will change that.

Noble my arse,it's nothing but well meaning people throwing their lives away for another people that are already lost.

[Madness]

Afghanistan's resources could make it the richest mining region on earth. In 2010, Pentagon officials and American geologists discovered about $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan.

Noble war indeed.

[pete376403]

When the Russians were trying to prop up the Afghan govt the Taliban were the Wests (ie US) good guys. The US supplied weapons (ie the Stinger missiles) which helped defeat the Russians (Read "Charlie Wilsons War")

Once the Russians went home the US govt and oil companies were actively courting the taliban in order to get permission for oil and gas pipelines to move product from the central Asian 'stans to the Indian Ocean.

The Saddam invaded Kuwait and it all changed. (Bush 1's war) Major US buildups and bases in Saudi Arabia (infidels on Moslem holy ground) got Bin Laden going. Various attacks ending up with 9/11. Taliban is now NOT the Wests best mate. Bush 2's war started off against Bin Laden in Afghanistan, then got sidetracked into Iraq. Obama has now pulled the troops mostly out of Iraq, but the quagmire of Afghanistan just keeps going. Probably because the oil companies still haven't lost hope of building their pipelines.

Also, a re-write of one of Kiplings poems about Afghanistan.

[Woodman]

from what I understand the taliban or whoever want us to follow Frances example and bug out earlier than planned.

France? surrender? surely not.

Send in more troops I say, negotiating with terrorists will only make them stronger.

[Macontour]

[QUOTE=huff3r;1130381106]That may be true, but I think you'll also find a medics job is to help the injured, no matter where or when. So they know well they could be called upon to provide assistance right in the middle of a firefight.

And of course they may also be trying to save the life of enemy who were just trying to kill them.

For those saying it is too dangerous and they should come home, I guess it is just like us and bikes. We accept that the activity is dangerous, that some may die but we don't think it will be us and we do all we can to try to avoid it being us, but occasionally we may just be unlucky. Just because some of us die occasionally doesn't mean we all stop riding.

The other thing is the very strong sense of comradeship and having your mates back.

[oneofsix]

When the Russians were trying to prop up the Afghan govt the Taliban were the Wests (ie US) good guys. The US supplied weapons (ie the Stinger missiles) which helped defeat the Russians (Read "Charlie Wilsons War")

Once the Russians went home the US govt and oil companies were actively courting the taliban in order to get permission for oil and gas pipelines to move product from the central Asian 'stans to the Indian Ocean.

The Saddam invaded Kuwait and it all changed. (Bush 1's war) Major US buildups and bases in Saudi Arabia (infidels on Moslem holy ground) got Bin Laden going. Various attacks ending up with 9/11. Taliban is now NOT the Wests best mate. Bush 2's war started off against Bin Laden in Afghanistan, then got sidetracked into Iraq. Obama has now pulled the troops mostly out of Iraq, but the quagmire of Afghanistan just keeps going. Probably because the oil companies still haven't lost hope of building their pipelines.

Also, a re-write of one of Kiplings poems about Afghanistan.

Incorrect. The Taliban were one of the groups fighting the Russian but it was the mujahideen the was the West's main ally. The Taliban were seen as to unstable and radical even back then and they proved to be worse oppressors of their own people and grew from a group in a single tribal region.

[Maki]

Everybody knows the real reason for wars but we keep inventing excuses like religion and politics. The world contains a fixed amount of resources but the human population keeps growing. This means less and less for each person. A person who has less than someone else will sometimes fight to redress the imbalance. The USA fights to maintain growth, partly driven by oil and the weapons industry. Some other countries fight to have enough to eat. The excuses are usually politics and religion but in the end those are just lies.

If we want a future free of war we need to achieve some kind of balance with nature. Until we do we will always be fighting.

[oneofsix]

from what I understand the taliban or whoever want us to follow Frances example and bug out earlier than planned.

France? surrender? surely not.

Send in more troops I say, negotiating with terrorists will only make them stronger.

http://olivierschmitt.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/surrender-monkey.jpg

[Akzle]

The world contains a fixed amount of resources but the human population keeps growing.

there's actually enough resources for everyone to be quite comfortably off.

infact, i heard it comparitored a while ago that every person ON THE PLANET could have a square kilometer of australia to live on. granted there's fuckall in australia, but that's how much space we have spare...

[imdying]

infact, i heard it comparitored a while ago that every person ON THE PLANET could have a square kilometer of australia to live on. granted there's fuckall in australia, but that's how much space we have spare...You heard wrong.

[bogan]

You heard wrong.

he's only out by a factor of 1000 :innocent:

[Maki]

there's actually enough resources for everyone to be quite comfortably off.



Yea right...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine

"The Guardian reports that in 2007 approximately 40% of the world's agricultural land is seriously degraded.[27] If current trends of soil degradation continue in Africa, the continent might be able to feed just 25% of its population by 2025, according to UNU's Ghana-based Institute for Natural Resources in Africa."

"David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell University, and Mario Giampietro, senior researcher at the National Research Institute on Food and Nutrition (INRAN), place in their study Food, Land, Population and the U.S. Economy the maximum U.S. population for a sustainable economy at 200 million.[39] To achieve a sustainable economy and avert disaster, the United States must reduce its population by at least one-third, and world population will have to be reduced by two-thirds, says study.[40] The authors of this study believe that the mentioned agricultural crisis will only begin to impact us after 2020, and will not become critical until 2050."

************************************************** ************************************************** ***********

The myth that there is enough for everyone to be comfortably off is fed by self interested groups such as religious congregations who see their members children as future cash cows. Therefore they urge their members to multiply in order to fatten their bank accounts, who cares about the environment, famine, war and disease...

[imdying]

Sadly, it is coming... and not in the 'running out of oil' way :(

We are basically headed towards too many people... humans are a parasite... nature deals with parasites in its own way.... which unfortunately is never good for the parasites :(

[Maha]

Meanwhile, back in the Afghan province of bla blayin...Al Qaeda frontman Mohammed Kaboom has been found dead....his body covering an area of approx 356 sqm.

[Tigadee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BttTesmLglc

[mashman]

there's actually enough resources for everyone to be quite comfortably off.

infact, i heard it comparitored a while ago that every person ON THE PLANET could have a square kilometer of australia to live on. granted there's fuckall in australia, but that's how much space we have spare...

Agreed. There just isn't enough money to use it properly. Was talking with a friend the other day and she was commenting on how there are 3 hard core gardeners in her cul de sac... no problem to them being able to plant out the 1000 or so houses that don't have vege patches around where I live. Unfortunately they'd want money for materials etc... Planting out own own patches will give the hard tilled soil a rest.

Talking to another friend a couple of months ago and soil erosion in the US is starting to become a bit of an issue. He's a smart smart smart guy and knows lots of smart smart smart people... anyhoo, he was saying that the US has lost something like 30 metres (yes 30 metres) of top soil over the last 40 years or so. If that is true then bullets are gonna be the new currency :yes:.

On the flip side, war is utterly unavoidable and is not fought in the name of freedom as that is what diplomacy is for. War is stealing.


I heard that we could all stand up in texas.

[Tigadee]

War is also for bolstering an economy... All that weaponry and ammunition sitting around doing nothing except depreciating is going to expire sometime anyway, use it up and you can claim capital expenditure, print/spend more money to buy new ones and claim some sort of moral high ground to invade.

So what better way to turn your declining economy around and create jobs, raise the stock index, pay fat bonuses, distract taxpayers and instill a sense of national pride? Start a war...

[oneofsix]

War is also for bolstering an economy... All that weaponry and ammunition sitting around doing nothing except depreciating is going to expire sometime anyway, use it up and you can claim capital expenditure, print/spend more money to buy new ones and claim some sort of moral high ground to invade.

So what better way to turn your declining economy around and create jobs, raise the stock index, pay fat bonuses, distract taxpayers and instill a sense of national pride? Start a war...

:yes: ruined Germany's economy twice, same for Britain. American dollar diving hence why they are pulling out. :yes: war is good for the economy - of the arms makers and dealers, doesn't do a country or it's people much good.

[Tigadee]

Now... but wait and see what happens in two to three years.

The technological advances as a result of warfare (or counter terrorism): Ever smaller increasingly sensitive cameras, ever more powerful and mobile computing/communications devices, super accurate recognition (voice, facial, breath, writing and ears even!), new materials for all kinds of applications, new power sources or more mobile power sources, exoskeletons for the handicapped and aged, 3D printing of organs or limbs...

Some of these are already reality and not new but their progress and/or refinement is more likely moved along as a result of conflict rather than peace.

[oneofsix]

Now... but wait and see what happens in two to three years.

The technological advances as a result of warfare (or counter terrorism): Ever smaller increasingly sensitive cameras, ever more powerful and mobile computing/communications devices, super accurate recognition (voice, facial, breath, writing and ears even!), new materials for all kinds of applications, new power sources or more mobile power sources, exoskeletons for the handicapped and aged, 3D printing of organs or limbs...

Some of these are already reality and not new but their progress and/or refinement is more likely moved along as a result of conflict rather than peace.

Really? Demand moves development along. During WWII the conflict provided a demand but Vietnam didn't. However now the demand is driven by other factors, war didn't demand the iPad. The new power sources are being demanded because of the oil crisis and new consummer technology. The world has changed. War demands and drives better weapons, affluent populations drive and demand better toys and lives. War prevents affluent populations.

[Akzle]

Agreed. There just isn't enough money to use it properly. Was talking with a friend the other day and she was commenting on how there are 3 hard core gardeners in her cul de sac... no problem to them being able to plant out the 1000 or so houses that don't have vege patches around where I live.


muh.
check out on youtube "a million pounds of food off one acre" then tell me people can't be fed.

fortunately i'm seeing more and more schools with vege patches and "community" gardens. good shit.

[Maki]

War prevents affluent populations.

Exactly. Could it be someone does not want "affluent populations" but affluence for him and his cronies? War is the perfect vehicle to achieve this.

Isn't it remarkable that some still believe that soldiers are fighting for their countries, for their mates, freedom, some religion or some such nonsense. They are really fighting for a few $ more into the pockets of the few. Of course this applies for the soldiers allegedly fighting for first world countries. In the countries where the fight is actually taking place some people may in fact be fighting for freedom, to rid themselves of foreign oppression.

If the population were sufficiently affluent, who would sign up to join an army?


It's time to "cut and run", before more people lose their lives for no purpose other than to save the face of a politician.

[Akzle]

It's time to "cut and run", before more people lose their lives for no purpose other than to save the face of a politician.
it was never our place to be there in the first instance. a good deal of our climate would allow us to grow heroin. of course, we could always BUY the shit off the afghanis for a fair price and help fix their economy....:weird:

the best way to honour the fallen would be to get the rest out of there before we add to their score in the name of ...?

we're on "peace keeping duties", yet we're going to retaliate to these attacks with an air strike.

i see how that could be mis-interpreted.

i <3 peace.

[mashman]

Really? Demand moves development along.

Really? People with bright ideas for new technology move development along... tis a shame we use it for blowing people apart instead of other more worth while pursuits.

[Maki]

muh.
check out on youtube "a million pounds of food off one acre" then tell me people can't be fed.

fortunately i'm seeing more and more schools with vege patches and "community" gardens. good shit.

Ok, so how many people will the earth support? Let's say the earth can support X amount of people in the extreme, (at least temporarily). That means every man woman and child is engaged in the production of food from dusk till dawn, every square yard of arable land is utilized to the max, the ocean is full of fish farms and the only vestige of nature and wilderness left is confined to zoos. Any climatic event, a strong el Nino for example would nevertheless lead to crop failures, widespread famine, brutal wars and epidemics.

Let's say the earth can support the number Y more comfortably. Let's say that is today's situation which many argue is not sustainable and vast tracts of land are being raped to maximize food production and these will inevitably decline but of course other areas that are now not so intensively cultivated could be utilized at the expense of natural habitats, extinctions and future sustainability. Is this a desirable state of affairs?

Finally let's say that we find a population number Z which could live sustainably, not have to over utilize land, not cause mass extinctions, have plenty in reserve in times when the climate does no cooperate and have resources left over to take care of sick and elderly.

Which of these numbers is most desirable? Why impose the misery and destruction X number of human beings would cause rather than the harmony and balance that the number Z would bring? I don't see any arguments for having too many people apart from the one where a dictator wants his followers to have more children in order to multiply the ranks of his supporters, be it a dictator of a country or religious organization. Apart from that I can see no rational reason why burdening the planet with an unsustainable number of human beings is desirable.

Due to widespread droughts and crop failures in the northern hemisphere this summer I believe you are going to see the consequences of over population very soon indeed. The starving people are not going to be sustained by theories that there is enough for everyone. We will soon see how lucky we are to live down here in a relatively sparsely populated country where it is easy to grow food. Most of the worlds population is not as fortunate.

[oneofsix]

you notice that as the population grows, towns and cities have to grow and these of course will be built where the better farming land is so it is this good farm land that gets built out first. Australia is a good example, all the population is around the fertile outside of the country, not the arid middle.

[Tigadee]

Really? Demand moves development along. During WWII the conflict provided a demand but Vietnam didn't. However now the demand is driven by other factors, war didn't demand the iPad. The new power sources are being demanded because of the oil crisis and new consummer technology. The world has changed. War demands and drives better weapons, affluent populations drive and demand better toys and lives. War prevents affluent populations.

True enough... As a sci-fi fan, I might even say that sci-fi is what drives a lot of technological development, look at the Star trek communicator and PADD vs mobile phones and tablets, or voice/face recognition software, wi-fi,...

[oneofsix]

True enough... As a sci-fi fan, I might even say that sci-fi is what drives a lot of technological development, look at the Star trek communicator and PADD vs mobile phones and tablets, or voice/face recognition software, wi-fi,...

Live long and prosper.

[imdying]

True enough... As a sci-fi fan, I might even say that sci-fi is what drives a lot of technological development, look at the Star trek communicator and PADD vs mobile phones and tablets, or voice/face recognition software, wi-fi,...What a load of shit, sci-fi doesn't drive that at all.

[bogan]

True enough... As a sci-fi fan, I might even say that sci-fi is what drives a lot of technological development, look at the Star trek communicator and PADD vs mobile phones and tablets, or voice/face recognition software, wi-fi,...

I know right, after the moon landing we have just gone bigger and better, oh wait :innocent:

[mashman]

Ok, so how many people will the earth support? Let's say the earth can support X amount of people in the extreme, (at least temporarily). That means every man woman and child is engaged in the production of food from dusk till dawn, every square yard of arable land is utilized to the max, the ocean is full of fish farms and the only vestige of nature and wilderness left is confined to zoos. Any climatic event, a strong el Nino for example would nevertheless lead to crop failures, widespread famine, brutal wars and epidemics.

Let's say the earth can support the number Y more comfortably. Let's say that is today's situation which many argue is not sustainable and vast tracts of land are being raped to maximize food production and these will inevitably decline but of course other areas that are now not so intensively cultivated could be utilized at the expense of natural habitats, extinctions and future sustainability. Is this a desirable state of affairs?

Finally let's say that we find a population number Y which could live sustainably, not have to over utilize land, not cause mass extinctions, have plenty in reserve in times when the climate does no cooperate and have resources left over to take care of sick and elderly.

Which of these numbers is most desirable? Why impose the misery and destruction X number of human beings would cause rather than the harmony and balance that the number Y would bring? I don't see any arguments for having too many people apart from the one where a dictator wants his followers to have more children in order to multiply the ranks of his supporters, be it a dictator of a country or religious organization. Apart from that I can see no rational reason why burdening the planet with an unsustainable number of human beings is desirable.

Due to widespread droughts and crop failures in the northern hemisphere this summer I believe you are going to see the consequences of over population very soon indeed. The starving people are not going to be sustained by theories that there is enough for everyone. We will soon see how lucky we are to live down here in a relatively sparsely populated country where it is easy to grow food. Most of the worlds population is not as fortunate.

Build indoors and control that climate.
Build up so that the land is used most efficiently.
Use water from desalination plants to feed hydroponic gardens.

= fuckloads of food.

As for overpopulation... asking people to stop having too many kids might be a good start. Teaching kids at school that overpopulation has a bad affect on all things living might do the trick too... but why bother when there's war to be had and there's never enough money to achieve such a simple step forwards in evolution. Ditch the cash and it's ALL very doable!

[allycatz]

Ex SAS friend of mine sent me this comment yesterday re the deaths.....he like many of his colleagues are finding it hard to see how re-con crew are on the battle lines as in the case of the last two deaths, when one soldier was killed after being sent to assist our SAS crew

"questions must be asked ....they have made so may experience people redundant over the last 2 years we are seeing the result of inexperienced commanders and sadly ) warrant officers who are only interested in career advancment than standing up to thier Colonels poor decisions ..as is there job ... rather than putting themselves in the position of being the moral compass for thier battalion commanders ---"

[oneofsix]

Ex SAS friend of mine sent me this comment yesterday re the deaths.....he like many of his colleagues are finding it hard to see how re-con crew are on the battle lines as in the case of the last two deaths, when one soldier was killed after being sent to assist our SAS crew

"questions must be asked ....they have made so may experience people redundant over the last 2 years we are seeing the result of inexperienced commanders and sadly ) warrant officers who are only interested in career advancment than standing up to thier Colonels poor decisions ..as is there job ... rather than putting themselves in the position of being the moral compass for thier battalion commanders ---"

From that post I fear we are heading back to the situation that gave rise to the quote "c'est magnifique mais c'est ne pas la guerre" about a certain action. Currently the western world seems hell bent on recreating the type of society from that time. :facepalm:

It also answers why, suddenly, we have doubled the dead in just over two weeks.

[Tigadee]

What a load of shit, sci-fi doesn't drive that at all.

:facepalm: Some people have no sense of humour...

"What a load of shit again... Humour doesn't drive anything at all!" :clap:

[98tls]

Absolutely.


The question as to whtether, and what interests are served by them being there is the question though.

Have to admit i know next to nothing the hows/whys of our soliders being there but thought i heard on the news the other night that troops from the world over will be pulled out within 2 years?I have to ask what will be different in 2 years,the Taliban will still be there thats for sure and no doubt between then and now more will die so makes me wonder for what.Far from not respecting what our and other countries troops are doing i just struggle to understand what there dying for is all.The death tolls not getting any better far from it so in 2 years time everyone leaves,is the place going to be any better for all the lives lost?

[Road kill]

Build indoors and control that climate.
Build up so that the land is used most efficiently.
Use water from desalination plants to feed hydroponic gardens.

= fuckloads of food.

As for overpopulation... asking people to stop having too many kids might be a good start. Teaching kids at school that overpopulation has a bad affect on all things living might do the trick too... but why bother when there's war to be had and there's never enough money to achieve such a simple step forwards in evolution. Ditch the cash and it's ALL very doable!

China does that,,hasn't made them very popular an there's still millions of them.

Try it in NZ and it will only be the better educated and well off that will play that game,,and only because they can see a better life for "them" personally.
On the other hand "don't tell smoky this",,but us darkies will carry on rooting because it's cheap,it's fun,we're trying to increase our population,as a people we actually still own more land than the divided by greed white population,and we're getting more back every,day,month,year,,,and we hold the moral high ground with the world courts and the UN.
So have a nice day while you keep your cock in your pants mate,after all it's working pretty good for you so far aye.



Hey,,,,just joking,,,but think about it mate,,,you stop breeding an some other cunt will see you off this planet long before you see any benefit from it.

[Maki]

Ex SAS friend of mine sent me this comment yesterday re the deaths.....he like many of his colleagues are finding it hard to see how re-con crew are on the battle lines as in the case of the last two deaths, when one soldier was killed after being sent to assist our SAS crew

"questions must be asked ....they have made so may experience people redundant over the last 2 years we are seeing the result of inexperienced commanders and sadly ) warrant officers who are only interested in career advancment than standing up to thier Colonels poor decisions ..as is there job ... rather than putting themselves in the position of being the moral compass for thier battalion commanders ---"

What??? Then why do I keep hearing on the radio that the SAS was delighted to be there and wished they were back and the soldiers who are there want nothing more than to stay and are happy with their leaders? Wait a minute, is it possible that my radio is telling me lies???

My radio also tells me it will take 6 months to get the troops out of Afghanistan for logistical reasons. Is that true? Will they have to walk out or ride horses like the English did in the 19th century and then take sailing ships back to NZ??? I thought the NZ air force has a Boeing 757 which could take them all home tomorrow if that is what they really wanted. Is my radio lying about those 6 months?

A bit of history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul

"The Massacre of Elphinstone's Army was the destruction by Afghan forces, led by Akbar Khan, the son of Dost Mohammad Khan, of a combined British and Indian force of the British East India Company, led by Major General William Elphinstone, in January 1842.

After the British and Indian troops captured Kabul in 1839, an Afghan uprising forced the occupying garrison out of the city. The East India Company army of 4,500 troops, along with 12,000 civilian workers, family members and other camp-followers, left Kabul on 6 January 1842. They attempted to reach the British garrison at Jalalabad, 90 miles (140 km) away, but were immediately harassed by Afghan forces. The last organised remnants were eventually annihilated near Gandamak on 13 January.[2]

Apart from about a dozen high-ranking prisoners, including Elphinstone and his second-in-Command Brigadier Shelton, only one British officer from the army, Assistant Surgeon William Brydon, survived the retreat and reached Jalalabad."


"On 13 January, a British officer from the 16,000 strong column rode into Jalalabad on a wounded horse (a few sepoys, who had hidden in the mountains, followed in the coming weeks). The sole survivor of the 12-man cavalry group, assistant Surgeon William Brydon, was asked upon arrival what happened to the army, to which he answered "I am the army". Although part of his skull had been sheared off by a sword, he ultimately survived because he had insulated his hat with a magazine which deflected the blow. Brydon later published a memoir of the death march. The pony he rode was said to have lain down in a stable and never got up."

[mashman]

China does that,,hasn't made them very popular an there's still millions of them.

Try it in NZ and it will only be the better educated and well off that will play that game,,and only because they can see a better life for "them" personally.
On the other hand "don't tell smoky this",,but us darkies will carry on rooting because it's cheap,it's fun,we're trying to increase our population,as a people we actually still own more land than the divided by greed white population,and we're getting more back every,day,month,year,,,and we hold the moral high ground with the world courts and the UN.
So have a nice day while you keep your cock in your pants mate,after all it's working pretty good for you so far aye.



Hey,,,,just joking,,,but think about it mate,,,you stop breeding an some other cunt will see you off this planet long before you see any benefit from it.

:rofl: all you can do is educate and ask. Rather that than out and out murder (war) and forced sterilisation (peace)... the later will be along soon enough if things don't change. Shame really... but I'll be damned iffen I keep the little fella from cave diving. Praps we'll get better at vasectomy reversal and men will choose it instead of popping pills or worrying about gettin trapped by psychotic women.

[Akzle]

Ok, so how many people will the earth support? Let's say the earth can support X...
Let's say the earth can support the number Y more comfortably...
Finally let's say that we find a population number Z...
Which of these numbers is most desirable? Why impose the misery and destruction X number of human beings would cause rather than the harmony and balance that the number Z would bring?...
but what about Q?!?
i vote Q.

i'm not entirely sure what your point was.
all white folk should kill themselves in good conscience?

if 100% of people on the planet abandon their greed (money, capitalism, commercialism) then shit can change, for everyone, for the better, in short order.


I know right, after the moon landing we have just gone bigger and better, oh wait :innocent:
what moon landing?

Have to admit i know next to nothing the hows/whys of our
...what will be different in 2 years,the Taliban will still be there thats for sure
pretty much. i'm not sure if anyone knows why they're there. i keep hearing "we have to keep in mind why they're there" but no-one ever actually says what that is.

the thing is, if, say, america decides to stage a land based invasion/occupation of NZ, they'll be fighting every man, woman and child who can lay hands on a weapon. this is the situation they face there. the enemy isn't the army. the enemy isn't in battle fatigues standing up to face your attack. the enemy is everyone. the enemy is the guy with the AK behind his sofa. the baker with the shotty under the counter, the camel jockey with 20lbs of plastique. basically the locals are sending a pretty clear message (and have been for the last 15 years) to GTFO. you cannot win when you're fighting an ENTIRE country. y'think the divided states would have realised this with 'nam and there other "stop communism spreading" tirades.
for a long time NZ was differentiated. there were times in iraq when the "terrorists" would drive right past the NZ base, 20km up the road to attack australian/american ones. because we where there to help. it was known. it seems the situation has changed.
stupidity persists.

[mashman]

but what about Q?!?
i vote Q.

i'm not entirely sure what your point was.
all white folk should kill themselves in good conscience?

if 100% of people on the planet abandon their greed (money, capitalism, commercialism) then shit can change, for everyone, for the better, in short order.


what moon landing?

pretty much. i'm not sure if anyone knows why they're there. i keep hearing "we have to keep in mind why they're there" but no-one ever actually says what that is.

the thing is, if, say, america decides to stage a land based invasion/occupation of NZ, they'll be fighting every man, woman and child who can lay hands on a weapon. this is the situation they face there. the enemy isn't the army. the enemy isn't in battle fatigues standing up to face your attack. the enemy is everyone. the enemy is the guy with the AK behind his sofa. the baker with the shotty under the counter, the camel jockey with 20lbs of plastique. basically the locals are sending a pretty clear message (and have been for the last 15 years) to GTFO. you cannot win when you're fighting an ENTIRE country. y'think the divided states would have realised this with 'nam and there other "stop communism spreading" tirades.
for a long time NZ was differentiated. there were times in iraq when the "terrorists" would drive right past the NZ base, 20km up the road to attack australian/american ones. because we where there to help. it was known. it seems the situation has changed.
stupidity persists.

cannot spread rep again... but I'm white and I want to live. Can I get a brown/black pass on the killing myself thing please?

[FJRider]

cannot spread rep again... but I'm white and I want to live. Can I get a brown/black pass on the killing myself thing please?

Why ... have you had your 30 virgins already ... ???? :blink:

[Swoop]

My radio also tells me it will take 6 months to get the troops out of Afghanistan for logistical reasons. Is that true? I thought the NZ air force has a Boeing 757 which could take them all home tomorrow if that is what they really wanted. Is my radio lying about those 6 months?

Yes.
Since it takes two C-17's to move a squadron in/out of 'Stan, then it would take many trips to move some of the regular forces around. Also their heavy equipment wouldn't fit in a 757.

Btw, our grey airline has two 757's.

[Brett]

What??? Then why do I keep hearing on the radio that the SAS was delighted to be there and wished they were back and the soldiers who are there want nothing more than to stay and are happy with their leaders? Wait a minute, is it possible that my radio is telling me lies???

My radio also tells me it will take 6 months to get the troops out of Afghanistan for logistical reasons. Is that true? Will they have to walk out or ride horses like the English did in the 19th century and then take sailing ships back to NZ??? I thought the NZ air force has a Boeing 757 which could take them all home tomorrow if that is what they really wanted. Is my radio lying about those 6 months?

A bit of history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul

"The Massacre of Elphinstone's Army was the destruction by Afghan forces, led by Akbar Khan, the son of Dost Mohammad Khan, of a combined British and Indian force of the British East India Company, led by Major General William Elphinstone, in January 1842.

After the British and Indian troops captured Kabul in 1839, an Afghan uprising forced the occupying garrison out of the city. The East India Company army of 4,500 troops, along with 12,000 civilian workers, family members and other camp-followers, left Kabul on 6 January 1842. They attempted to reach the British garrison at Jalalabad, 90 miles (140 km) away, but were immediately harassed by Afghan forces. The last organised remnants were eventually annihilated near Gandamak on 13 January.[2]

Apart from about a dozen high-ranking prisoners, including Elphinstone and his second-in-Command Brigadier Shelton, only one British officer from the army, Assistant Surgeon William Brydon, survived the retreat and reached Jalalabad."


"On 13 January, a British officer from the 16,000 strong column rode into Jalalabad on a wounded horse (a few sepoys, who had hidden in the mountains, followed in the coming weeks). The sole survivor of the 12-man cavalry group, assistant Surgeon William Brydon, was asked upon arrival what happened to the army, to which he answered "I am the army". Although part of his skull had been sheared off by a sword, he ultimately survived because he had insulated his hat with a magazine which deflected the blow. Brydon later published a memoir of the death march. The pony he rode was said to have lain down in a stable and never got up."

I stand to be corrected, but I think you have missed the salient point of the quote in alleycatz post. I don't think that the emphasis was on this alledged SAS trooper not wanting to be over there, but rather at the 'political' environment in which they must operate - ie the quote suggests that experienced staff are no longer with the force and that current command are making poor choices that are seeing reconstruction teams being sent to the battle lines of combat. The SAS know that it is in the environment of the front lines (and well behind them) that they are trained and supposed to operate, however reconstruction crews and roles that have large roles in helping civilians are not front line/combat oriented. This is the point I think was trying to be made.

[Katman]

we are seeing the result of inexperienced commanders and sadly ) warrant officers who are only interested in career advancment than standing up to thier Colonels poor decisions ..as is there job ... rather than putting themselves in the position of being the moral compass for thier battalion commanders ---"

Since when has it been the 'job' of troop commanders or warrant officers to "stand up to their Colonels poor decisions"?

[oneofsix]

pretty much. i'm not sure if anyone knows why they're there. i keep hearing "we have to keep in mind why they're there" but no-one ever actually says what that is.

the thing is, if, say, america decides to stage a land based invasion/occupation of NZ, they'll be fighting every man, woman and child who can lay hands on a weapon. this is the situation they face there. the enemy isn't the army. the enemy isn't in battle fatigues standing up to face your attack. the enemy is everyone. the enemy is the guy with the AK behind his sofa. the baker with the shotty under the counter, the camel jockey with 20lbs of plastique. basically the locals are sending a pretty clear message (and have been for the last 15 years) to GTFO. you cannot win when you're fighting an ENTIRE country. y'think the divided states would have realised this with 'nam and there other "stop communism spreading" tirades.
for a long time NZ was differentiated. there were times in iraq when the "terrorists" would drive right past the NZ base, 20km up the road to attack australian/american ones. because we where there to help. it was known. it seems the situation has changed.
stupidity persists.

Why we are there? because the Taliban were killing Afghans, especially woman and children, blowing up history and not wanted people the people but supported by the Al Qa'ida and some arab states. They were driven out and we were sent in to keep the peace and help rebuild. The people do respect and trust us because we are helping them rebuild schools hospitals etc but an education population is the last thing any totalitarian group like the Taliban want. Ironically the more our troops help the people and the more respect they get the more the Taliban will target the NZ troops.

The Americans etc do get target by more of the population because of the 'we know best' dictatorial attitude.

There needs to be an Afghanistan method of solution. No outside power has ever successfully controlled that country. My guess is that if the people of Afghanistan are given a level playing field the Taliban will be doomed but 'the west' doesn't like those sorts of solution because they are in control.

[Maki]

Yes.
Since it takes two C-17's to move a squadron in/out of 'Stan, then it would take many trips to move some of the regular forces around. Also their heavy equipment wouldn't fit in a 757.

Btw, our grey airline has two 757's.

What is more important, people, heavy equipment or the face of politicians? My point is that they could get all the people out tomorrow if that was what they really wanted and then they could fly as many C-17 missions in and out as it takes to get whatever heavy equipment they want to take back at their leisure. JK want's them to stay for another 6 months because it will make him look better and the military is happy to invent excuses to cover his ass. I guess that is their job since he is the PM.

[Maki]

I stand to be corrected, but I think you have missed the salient point of the quote in alleycatz post. I don't think that the emphasis was on this alledged SAS trooper not wanting to be over there, but rather at the 'political' environment in which they must operate - ie the quote suggests that experienced staff are no longer with the force and that current command are making poor choices that are seeing reconstruction teams being sent to the battle lines of combat. The SAS know that it is in the environment of the front lines (and well behind them) that they are trained and supposed to operate, however reconstruction crews and roles that have large roles in helping civilians are not front line/combat oriented. This is the point I think was trying to be made.

Thank you. I hope that the force will be kept within the compound or wherever it is they are staying for the 6 months needed to keep JK's face. No need to make any more sacrifices. I believe some other nations in the multinational occupation force have adopted this policy with good results.

[Maki]

i'm not entirely sure what your point was.
all white folk should kill themselves in good conscience?



The point was that we need to grow up as a species and manage our planet properly. That includes our own population. War, hunger, famine and epidemics will continue until we learn to do this.

[Swoop]

Since when has it been the 'job' of troop commanders or warrant officers to "stand up to their Colonels poor decisions"?
In the squadrons it happens fairly regularly. Stupidity in leadership was no excuse for getting troops injured unnecessarily and the environment promotes the ability to question poorly made decisions. Poor sods in the line infantry though.

JK want's them to stay for another 6 months because it will make him look better and the military is happy to invent excuses to cover his ass.
The government comitted to a certain timeframe. Simply packing up your toys and leaving the sandpit because things got hotter is a piss-poor excuse and something I would expect from the french. They did just that, btw.

I hope that the force will be kept within the compound or wherever it is they are staying for the 6 months needed...
Seige mentality? A good way to get even more danger thrown in the direction of the troops. Getting patrols out there has to happen in a combat environment.
The main cock-up has been the use of conventional vehicles. MRAP vehicles are a necessity and the other combatant nations have withdrawn vehicles to replace them with these. NZ tried to get their hands on some but only had a few of the LAV's which had to be up-armoured to cope with the threat.
Well done Labour. Ordering far too many of these and choosing the wrong option for a war. Quite acceptable for a police-action, but land rovers would have sufficed for that role.

[Maki]

The government comitted to a certain timeframe. Simply packing up your toys and leaving the sandpit because things got hotter is a piss-poor excuse and something I would expect from the french. They did just that, btw.



Good on the French. I hope no one you know dies to save JK's face. The reason for simply packing up and leaving is that 10 years have proven that their presence there is pointless. Throwing away more lives in Afghanistan is criminally stupid. the gubermint can take it's "commitments" and shove them for all i care. I don't understand why so many people value these political commitments higher than human lives. You must not think very much of the people in the armed forces.

[Brett]

Thank you. I hope that the force will be kept within the compound or wherever it is they are staying for the 6 months needed to keep JK's face. No need to make any more sacrifices. I believe some other nations in the multinational occupation force have adopted this policy with good results.

And if I was the enemy, I would know exactly where to hit them and cause the most casualties in that case. There are many in the army much better trained and with better experience than you or I to make strategic choices.

[Brett]

The point was that we need to grow up as a species and manage our planet properly. That includes our own population. War, hunger, famine and epidemics will continue until we learn to do this.

As shit as it is, managing our planet and people properly sometimes entails that we go to war. People are complicated, nations are complicated. Not all nations are as 'civilised' as NZ, you will never get everyone on the same page. Some people would oppose your views just for the sake of it. New Zealand (thanksfully) is very isolated and insulated in many ways from the outside world. It allows kiwi's who have not experienced the great wide world to form a naive, narrow world view. Some people, not a particular attack on you Maki, just cannot see that it is the place of the more developed nations to protect the fundamental rights of the weaker nations and oppressed people. Unfortunately, ignoring the bully doesn't always work. sometimes you have to beat the living snot out of him to stop him hurting others.

[caseye]

Unlike some, "the people in the armed services " of NZ know exactly why they are there and that their job is to patrol places that lesser troops are afraid of.
If you ask a returned service person from that particular region ( and any other, from actions long over and done with) and they will tell you that their presence there is all that stands between the local people and certain death from nasty Taliban's, further that the local people have come to rely on them for their safety and do actually want them there.
NZ in particular has a reputation for getting the job done and for taking the local population with them, not making them part of the problem.
Our armed services have fought/policed around the globe for those of us who remain here to be able to have our own thoughts and opinions and to act on them as we see fit.
Your inalienable rights are earn't on, THEIR BACKS, they know most NZ'ers are behind them wherever they are.
They also know that without the few who actually go out and do the hard yards there would be no democracy, they know that's why they are there and that's why we don't hear them saying, "I want to come home mummy"
Even given substandard ( by this theatres standards) equipment, they go out and do their job, knowing they could be the next causalities. Our services guys and girls are not stupid cannon fodder, they know the situation, they all volunteered, they all accept the risks. They also know when they are scheduled to come home and I'm sure are looking forward to it and doing their absolute best to make sure they do come home walking and talking.
Allies, friends, pact members, partners, all have responsibilities, if our govt pulled our troops out early, others would have to go in and fill their spot, is that acceptable to the families and countries of those who then have to go in and do that?
No I think not.
Can we simply pull out, blaming someone else for making it too hot an environment to operate in? ( Some are already blaming the Hungarians for not patrolling in their Provence, how convenient!)
We have a job to do, oh and a damn fine reputation for getting on with it and making it happen despite the odds.
Be proud of our troops, Yes, take away their mana in the eyes of the world? No.
Be responsible for the atrocities that will occur should our troops be pulled out earlier than scheduled, No. Is it going to happen anyway? Who Knows, who cares, if by then the locals haven't got it sorted, then at least we tried and our people died and sacrificed lives and living for those still there.
No military, No preparedness= surrender at every turn.
Do I want to live like that, No.
We live here in NZ not fucking France.Where the first shot fired causes the automatic raising of a white flag.
Yep, they've already gone home.

[Brett]

There is a reason that this poem has been adopted by special forces groups, including SAS:

The Golden Road to Samarkand

They ask:
But who are ye in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We answer:
We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further; it may be
Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,

White on a throne or guarded in a cave
There lies a prophet who can understand
Why men were born: but surely we are brave,
Who take the Golden Road to Samarkand.

The whole poem is very long, available HERE (http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/PGCC/htshb10.htm)for those interested.

[Swoop]

You must not think very much of the people in the armed forces.
I think highly of the troops and the shitty equipment they are forced to use... if they are provided with it in the first place. (Thanks, labour:rolleyes:).

I also have some very good mates over there chasing camels. One was blown up by a roadside IED. Dusted himself off and kept going...

[Bald Eagle]

chasing camels. One was blown up by a roadside IED. Dusted himself off and kept going...

them camels are tough

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk 2

[Akzle]

Why we are there? because the Taliban were killing Afghans, especially woman and children, blowing up history and not wanted people the people but supported by the Al Qa'ida and some arab states. They were driven out and we were sent in to keep the peace and help rebuild. The people do respect and trust us because we are helping them rebuild schools hospitals etc but an education population is the last thing any totalitarian group like the Taliban want. Ironically the more our troops help the people and the more respect they get the more the Taliban will target the NZ troops.

The Americans etc do get target by more of the population because of the 'we know best' dictatorial attitude.

There needs to be an Afghanistan method of solution. No outside power has ever successfully controlled that country. My guess is that if the people of Afghanistan are given a level playing field the Taliban will be doomed but 'the west' doesn't like those sorts of solution because they are in control.
so... the "allies" outnumber the "terrorists" 5:1, have for a decade and a half. making good progress there. for every "terrorist" they martyr, another 5 sign up.

what business is it, of "the west"'s how afghanistan decides to govern itself?

as far as killing women and children, and bombing hospitals/kindergartens/schools. i daresay the yanks have probably done that far more efficiently than the dune-coons ever could.


The point was that we need to grow up as a species and manage our planet properly. That includes our own population. War, hunger, famine and epidemics will continue until we learn to do this.

we agree.
although your definition of "management" (re: planet) would probably differ from mine...

[bogan]

Unlike some, "the people in the armed services " of NZ know exactly why they are there and that their job is to patrol places that lesser troops are afraid of.
If you ask a returned service person from that particular region ( and any other, from actions long over and done with) and they will tell you that their presence there is all that stands between the local people and certain death from nasty Taliban's, further that the local people have come to rely on them for their safety and do actually want them there.
NZ in particular has a reputation for getting the job done and for taking the local population with them, not making them part of the problem.

And this imo, is the only reason to go to war. And a good reason to stay there, in fact the sacrifice is more noble when you are doing it for foreigners than your own countrymen if you think about it.

[Akzle]

As shit as it is, managing our planet and people
...


Unlike some, "the people in the armed services " of NZ know exactly why they are there and that their job is to patrol places that lesser troops are afraid of.
...

seeeeeeewwwwww.
basically you're both of the opinion that the west is best and needs to force it's way of living on those who aren't "civilised" enough to bow before the mighty and righteous "democracy" flag that your government waves?
do you really believe that the allied prescence in afghanistan is stopping fascism/communism/terrorism from spreading and "infecting" our perfect societies?

"if by then the locals haven't...." - we're pretty much two decades into the shit. you mean to tell me that the taliban are going to drop their AKs and disband their camels for NZ's presence for a further 12 months??

"who knows who cares" - then why are we there?

i can fully support using the "defense force" to DEFEND.
OUR SHORELINE.
anything further than that. what benefit? are you really living in fear of "terrorists" "flying planes into our buildings"? do you really believe you need to brow beat a civilisation 2000 years older than your own to YOUR way of life?

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

i don't think i could possibly disagree with you more, caseye.

[bogan]

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

So only those with the means to be heard should be listened to?

If 80% of the people over there were to want a western democracy, would you consider it a just war of liberation?

[caseye]

seeeeeeewwwwww.
basically you're both of the opinion that the west is best( Who said that? ) and needs to force it's way of living on those who aren't "civilised" enough to bow before the mighty and righteous "democracy" flag that your government waves?
do you really believe that the allied prescence in afghanistan is stopping fascism/communism/terrorism from spreading and "infecting" our perfect societies?( Our societies are perfect? No I didn't say that either)

"if by then the locals haven't...." - we're pretty much two decades into the shit. you mean to tell me that the taliban are going to drop their AKs and lead their disband their camels for NZ's prescence for a further 12 months??( course not )

"who knows who cares" - then why are we there?( Because we are part of the great big world and we've gone there because people were suffering at the hands of nasties,We've done a hell of a lot for the average Joe rag top in Bamiyan)

i can fully support using the "defence force" to DEFEND.
OUR SHORELINE.( biggest Joke I've ever heard re our "defence force")
anything further than that. what benefit? are you really living in fear of "terrorists" "flying planes into our buildings"? (it has happened ya know)do you really believe you need to brow beat a civilisation 2000 years older than your own to YOUR way of life? ( course not, teach them some fucking manners when it comes to how they treat their own Oh Yeah)

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

i don't think i could possibly disagree with you more, caseye.( seems we're disagreeing on a lot less than you gave me credit? for)

[Brett]

seeeeeeewwwwww.
basically you're both of the opinion that the west is best and needs to force it's way of living on those who aren't "civilised" enough to bow before the mighty and righteous "democracy" flag that your government waves?
do you really believe that the allied prescence in afghanistan is stopping fascism/communism/terrorism from spreading and "infecting" our perfect societies?

"if by then the locals haven't...." - we're pretty much two decades into the shit. you mean to tell me that the taliban are going to drop their AKs and disband their camels for NZ's presence for a further 12 months??

"who knows who cares" - then why are we there?

i can fully support using the "defense force" to DEFEND.
OUR SHORELINE.
anything further than that. what benefit? are you really living in fear of "terrorists" "flying planes into our buildings"? do you really believe you need to brow beat a civilisation 2000 years older than your own to YOUR way of life?

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

i don't think i could possibly disagree with you more, caseye.

Edit - how could you possibly infer those comments from our posts? Is your reading comprehension limited?

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats his wife and kids, pours acid in their faces and generally treats them like shit, and I happen to be someone who knows about it and is big enough and brave enough to defend them, I have no place getting involved? Never mind that the wife and kids are too scared and powerless to say anything because the houses in their road are filled with families suffering the same fate? You're saying that I should stay in my comfy rich man's house and not help them because it's their business not mine?

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years. To say that it is better than our because it is more established is pretty retarded...If we're going to take that view, there are many much older cultures and civilisations that provide a much better example.

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa or somewhere similar where people's rights are so disrespected? Is it possible that you're view is skewed by the fact that you are perceiving these nations incorrectly?

[Brett]

( seems we're disagreeing on a lot less than you gave me credit? for)

I second all of those comments in your quoted post.

[Maki]

There is a reason that this poem has been adopted by special forces groups, including SAS:

The Golden Road to Samarkand

They ask:
But who are ye in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We answer:
We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further; it may be
Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,

White on a throne or guarded in a cave
There lies a prophet who can understand
Why men were born: but surely we are brave,
Who take the Golden Road to Samarkand.

The whole poem is very long, available HERE (http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/PGCC/htshb10.htm)for those interested.


When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,

Rudyard Kipling

[short-circuit]

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats his wife and kids, pours acid in their faces and generally treats them like shit, and I happen to be someone who knows about it and is big enough and brave enough to defend them, I have no place getting involved? Never mind that the wife and kids are too scared and powerless to say anything because the houses in their road are filled with families suffering the same fate? You're saying that I should stay in my comfy rich man's house and not help them because it's their business not mine?

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years. To say that it is better than our because it is more established is pretty retarded...If we're going to take that view, there are many much older cultures and civilisations that provide a much better example.

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa or somewhere similar where people's rights are so disrespected? Is it possible that you're view is skewed by the fact that you are perceiving these nations incorrectly?

Hook line and sinker. Yah, military intervention for humanitarian reasons...oh and democracy.

HA!

[Road kill]

As shit as it is, managing our planet and people properly sometimes entails that we go to war. People are complicated, nations are complicated. Not all nations are as 'civilised' as NZ, you will never get everyone on the same page. Some people would oppose your views just for the sake of it. New Zealand (thanksfully) is very isolated and insulated in many ways from the outside world. It allows kiwi's who have not experienced the great wide world to form a naive, narrow world view. Some people, not a particular attack on you Maki, just cannot see that it is the place of the more developed nations to protect the fundamental rights of the weaker nations and oppressed people. Unfortunately, ignoring the bully doesn't always work. sometimes you have to beat the living snot out of him to stop him hurting others.

Face the fact that throughout history nobody has ever helped,saved,or protected that place from themselves.

And it's ain't happening now,in fact the only thing that has changed in this whole mess from start to now is that Kiwi's are now dieing for it.

The best thing that could be done for that country if anybody really wanted to help this is to arm all the locals up with the best arms on the planet and let them sort it themselves.

Then if they win you can do bussiness with the new order,,,that's if they'll talk to you:lol:

[Akzle]

So only those with the means to be heard should be listened to?

If 80% of the people over there were to want a western democracy, would you consider it a just war of liberation?
1) bahahahhaa. no. only those with nukes and duly elected leaders should be listened to. eh?

2) DOES 80% of their population want western democracy?
seems like they're looking at the corruption, the greed and the loose a55 attitude that passes for "morality" and saying "next!"
you think if 80% of the population wanted something they could be beaten down by 20%...? that really would be like western democracy eh?

-edit- also highly ironic that the 80% you mention represents number of allied soldiers v. number of terrorists. majority rule eh?


Edit - how could you possibly infer those comments from our posts? Is your reading comprehension limited?

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats...

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years....

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa...

1) you weren't "applying my logic" that's an oxymoron in and of itself. if someone in your street is doing something you believe to be illegal you should phone the police and let our democratic justice system deal with it.
but "applying YOUR logic", if someone on the other side of the planet decides to vote for a puppet/ president that is going to lubricate the wheels of commerce with a good old fashioned land based invasion/shootin-bomb-droppin war/ securing oil and drugs campaign, that i should not do anything? that i should support people from my side of the planet into their war? that i should believe they have the right to enforce their beliefs outside their legal borders?
2) "how can i infer...?" that seems to be your attitude. i'll do a good multi-quotey when/if i can be bothered.
3) "their culture..." is that. theirs. they don't want ours. YOU want them to have ours. i don't want them to have ours. i'd rather WE had theirs. maybe i should hook up some IEDs in town then come round and burn your heretic a55. eh?
4) no. in my adult life i have not travelled beyond NZ. i know several people who have. and found it hilarious when the first thing they were taught in native-tongue was "i am not american. don't shoot me."

[mashman]

Hook line and sinker. Yah, military intervention for humanitarian reasons...oh and democracy.

HA!

How would one pay for such sterling services? I assume because we went to them that our services are free? If not, wouldn't that make our countries armed forces mercenaries?

I'm with the getting the fuck out of dodge brigade. They went to fight terrorists, no, they went to defend the people from some militant organisation just like the Russians did, no, they went to deliver democracy and show the way of the west, or, they went to die for no real reason at all other than to do what they were told by those in command. I don't see us, that's the world, tackling the on going decades of violence and oppression in Africa. Why not? Is it coz they iz black? is it because they aren't a threat (so much for humanitarian causes)? is it because whitey already owns the place (fuckloads of debt, so much they can write off billions and still make fuckloads of money)? Africa's issues have been going on longer than the Easts, why haven't we been there and sorted that? And why did we go to Iraq? Why spooling for a fight with Iran? and on and on and on with the nonsense that is why we go to war. A small group want something or take offence, a large group go to die and defend the position of the small group under some acepted banner. Get 'em out.

[bogan]

1) bahahahhaa. no. only those with nukes and duly elected leaders should be listened to. eh?

2) DOES 80% of their population want western democracy?
seems like they're looking at the corruption, the greed and the loose a55 attitude that passes for "morality" and saying "next!"
you think if 80% of the population wanted something they could be beaten down by 20%...? that really would be like western democracy eh?

-edit- also highly ironic that the 80% you mention represents number of allied soldiers v. number of terrorists. majority rule eh?

I have no idea how many would want democracy it, and of course 20% can beat down 80%, especially if the 20% have the boot firmly to the next of the 80%. How are dudes in mud huts with a few goats supposed to take on guys with AKs and RPGs? How are they even to know that 80% want to take them on?
All I'm saying is it isn't as clear cut as they are over there, so let em deal with their own shit.

The number actually came from Asher's Polity sci-fi series, where the AIs do a poll and bring the planet under their rule if 80% ever want this to happen.

[short-circuit]

How would one pay for such sterling services? I assume because we went to them that our services are free? If not, wouldn't that make our countries armed forces mercenaries?

I'm with the getting the fuck out of dodge brigade. They went to fight terrorists, no, they went to defend the people from some militant organisation just like the Russians did, no, they went to deliver democracy and show the way of the west, or, they went to die for no real reason at all other than to do what they were told by those in command. I don't see us, that's the world, tackling the on going decades of violence and oppression in Africa. Why not? Is it coz they iz black? is it because they aren't a threat (so much for humanitarian causes)? is it because whitey already owns the place (fuckloads of debt, so much they can write off billions and still make fuckloads of money)? Africa's issues have been going on longer than the Easts, why haven't we been there and sorted that? And why did we go to Iraq? Why spooling for a fight with Iran? and on and on and on with the nonsense that is why we go to war. A small group want something or take offence, a large group go to die and defend the position of the small group under some acepted banner. Get 'em out.

We really need a sarcasm emoticon-thingy-whatsit

[FJRider]

... DOES 80% of their population want western democracy?

you think if 80% of the population wanted something they could be beaten down by 20%...? that really would be like western democracy eh?

-edit- also highly ironic that the 80% you mention represents number of allied soldiers v. number of terrorists. majority rule eh?

80 % of the Afgan population dont live in the major cities.

That 80 % of population want their children (and themselves) to get an education.

That 80 % of population want medical care available for their children (and themselves).

That 80 % of population want to work in jobs that will benefit themselves and their country.

That 80 % of population ARE being told how their lives will be lived, and the strict rules they have to live by in that life. By LESS than the remaining 20 % of population.

Probably closer to 5 % of the population ... are attempting to dictate their religious teachings into their life. With public executions the norm, for those that choose not obey the rules to the letter.
Any business or building, or item (of any shape or form) that doesn't fit into the "True culture of Islam" is simply removed. (Read blown up/destroyed)
So if (when) the Catholics take over as the main religious force in this country (if the Mormans dont beat them to it) imagine them going around blowing up pubs, casinos, shops that sell forbidden items, and kill the owners/workers of those business's ... people may start to understand what might be happening over there.

Rules that have been their life since Jesus was a boy ... and before. Will most likely still be their life for many years to come. Those that take their battle to western society ... and then choose to hide in the protection of their adopted lands. Out of convenience ... not national pride, and (or) religious fevor ... are being sought out.

[Road kill]

I have no idea how many would want democracy it, and of course 20% can beat down 80%, especially if the 20% have the boot firmly to the next of the 80%. How are dudes in mud huts with a few goats supposed to take on guys with AKs and RPGs? How are they even to know that 80% want to take them on?
All I'm saying is it isn't as clear cut as they are over there, so let em deal with their own shit.

The number actually came from Asher's Polity sci-fi series, where the AIs do a poll and bring the planet under their rule if 80% ever want this to happen.

NZ could solves it's national debt by making and sell arms to the 80%.

History would show NZ to have been the country that cared enough to elevate the 80% to true self determination,,,and we'd be rich.

[Kickaha]

We live here in NZ not fucking France.Where the first shot fired causes the automatic raising of a white flag.
Yep, they've already gone home.

If you're going to make comments like that you should at least make sure they're accurate

They have not already gone home and their early withdrawal was part of a pre election pledge by the now President Francois Hollande starting in July and hoping to have them all out by the end of 2012, most people seem to think it wont happen in this time frame

That is just their combat troops, advisers and trainers will still remain

That decison had already been made before the last 4 French troops were killed they now have 87 dead, but hey it's only fucking France

New Zealand is also looking at withdrawing its troops early

[bogan]

NZ could solves it's national debt by making and sell arms to the 80%.

History would show NZ to have been the country that cared enough to elevate the 80% to true self determination,,,and we'd be rich.

So, kind of a teach a man to fish approach? Teach a man to war, and he will war for a lifetime... hmmm, dunno if that is such a good idea eh!

[Tigadee]

So, kind of a teach a man to fish approach? Teach a man to war, and he will war for a lifetime... hmmm, dunno if that is such a good idea eh!

Too right! An AK-74 makes a terrible fishing rod...

[Brett]

Face the fact that throughout history nobody has ever helped,saved,or protected that place from themselves.

And it's ain't happening now,in fact the only thing that has changed in this whole mess from start to now is that Kiwi's are now dieing for it.

The best thing that could be done for that country if anybody really wanted to help this is to arm all the locals up with the best arms on the planet and let them sort it themselves.

Then if they win you can do bussiness with the new order,,,that's if they'll talk to you:lol:

1) it hasn't always been that way over there.
2) your suggested approach of arming the locals and letting them at it has been tried in a few nations with no success. I have lived in a nation like this for a while, it doesn't work.


1) bahahahhaa. no. only those with nukes and duly elected leaders should be listened to. eh?

?[/COLOR]



1) you weren't "applying my logic" that's an oxymoron in and of itself. if someone in your street is doing something you believe to be illegal you should phone the police and let our democratic justice system deal with it. how is "applying your logic" an oxymoron? Unless you're saying that you don't have logic that could be applied, or by it's nature your logic is illogical?
but "applying YOUR logic", if someone on the other side of the planet decides to vote for a puppet/ president that is going to lubricate the wheels of commerce with a good old fashioned land based invasion/shootin-bomb-droppin war/ securing oil and drugs campaign, that i should not do anything? that i should support people from my side of the planet into their war? that i should believe they have the right to enforce their beliefs outside their legal borders? That clutching at straws a little bit. Read my previous posts if your confused. (where I said that I acknowledge and abhor this where it occurs, but that they are also doing some good.)
2) "how can i infer...?" that seems to be your attitude. i'll do a good multi-quotey when/if i can be bothered.What you talking about willis? You intended to derive, by reasoning, things I had not said from the those words that I had written. Read what is written, don't try and "read between the lines". Feel free to quote me, I wasn't making statements, i was asking questions to ascertain your position.
3) "their culture..." is that. theirs. they don't want ours. YOU want them to have ours. i don't want them to have ours. i'd rather WE had theirs. maybe i should hook up some IEDs in town then come round and burn your heretic a55. eh? Really...? You're welcome to try princess, I'll put you to work, make you wear a skirt and start calling you Brittany.Punk.I don't want them to have our culture at all. In fact, i quite like different cultures and dislike many things about western culture. But to say that all Afghans have one culture is retarded. That's like saying that all NZers have the same culture, the Islander families in South Auckland, the Maori families up in Northland, the miners n the west coast and the rich folk in Herne Bay. Yeah Right. I suggest spending a bit of time learning about the different cultures and tribes of the Afghan region before making those sorts of judgements. I have and continue to do so.
4) no. in my adult life i have not travelled beyond NZ. i know several people who have. and found it hilarious when the first thing they were taught in native-tongue was "i am not american. don't shoot me." hence my comments re: being insulated in NZ. Go to those places, see the people. Understanding the differences in culture, even within confined geographic regions might surprise you. please note, I'm not trying to say that your views and opinions don't count simply because you have never been to these places, they certainly do count, I am just saying that you might see some things a little differently.

[ducatilover]

Kiwibiker: A site for all New Zealand know it alls.

I have two motorcycles


Too right! An AK-74 makes a terrible fishing rod...

Possibly the most useful post in this thread :lol:


RIP to the fallen, it's a terrible tragedy that they were killed regardless of the corruptness of the situation.

[Maha]

Kiwibiker: A site for all New Zealand know it alls.



Only 30% know it all, the other 70% (the group I am in) know better.

[Akzle]

it isn't as clear cut as they are over there, so let em deal with their own shit.
jah. we's agrees.


We really need a sarcasm emoticon-thingy-whatsit
comic sans.

NZ could solves it's national debt by making and sell arms to the 80%.
History would show NZ to have been the country that cared enough to elevate the 80% to true self determination,,,and we'd be rich.
bwahahaha. that was option Q. i voted for it!

Only 30% know it all, the other 70% know better. what about the 99%?

@brett.
you did make statements. several of them. that lead me to say what i said. it DOES seem to be your attitude.
really? you'd go the "might is right" route? i got guns... it wouldn't be too hard to whack up a stake for a good ol' fashioned burning. (of you.)
or are you saying you'd fight ot the death to defend your belief?
nor am i saying that everyone in afghanistan has the "same culture" bogan probably hit this one on the head with "let em deal with their own shit." afghani, taliban, whatever. their country. their jurisdiction. their problem.

as far as my "perception" or "knowledge" of things like this, i'm not entirely ignorant (i just dont give TOO much of a fuck).
i have a palestinian uncle.
now. palestine doesn't exist, according to the western know-all leaders. so he's had a helluva packet dished out. he was a "terrorist" (freedom fighter), kept an AK47 at home because he was the first and last line of defense as far as his family was concerned. he didn't fear taliban, alquaida or other "terrorists" wasn't concerned about roadside bombs etc.
and has expanded a bit of the qu'ran for me (i have one. but it looks like it was written by drunk school kids...:scratch:) and the way camel jockeys are portrayed in the west is far from how it is.
i think i will have to employ sarcasm font, oft' times i'm mocking the mockers.

[Brett]

I stand to be corrected, but I think you have missed the salient point of the quote in alleycatz post. I don't think that the emphasis was on this alledged SAS trooper not wanting to be over there, but rather at the 'political' environment in which they must operate - ie the quote suggests that experienced staff are no longer with the force and that current command are making poor choices that are seeing reconstruction teams being sent to the battle lines of combat. The SAS know that it is in the environment of the front lines (and well behind them) that they are trained and supposed to operate, however reconstruction crews and roles that have large roles in helping civilians are not front line/combat oriented. This is the point I think was trying to be made.


And if I was the enemy, I would know exactly where to hit them and cause the most casualties in that case. There are many in the army much better trained and with better experience than you or I to make strategic choices.


As shit as it is, managing our planet and people properly sometimes entails that we go to war. People are complicated, nations are complicated. Not all nations are as 'civilised' as NZ, you will never get everyone on the same page. Some people would oppose your views just for the sake of it. New Zealand (thanksfully) is very isolated and insulated in many ways from the outside world. It allows kiwi's who have not experienced the great wide world to form a naive, narrow world view. Some people, not a particular attack on you Maki, just cannot see that it is the place of the more developed nations to protect the fundamental rights of the weaker nations and oppressed people. Unfortunately, ignoring the bully doesn't always work. sometimes you have to beat the living snot out of him to stop him hurting others.


There is a reason that this poem has been adopted by special forces groups, including SAS:

The Golden Road to Samarkand

They ask:
But who are ye in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We answer:
We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further; it may be
Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,

White on a throne or guarded in a cave
There lies a prophet who can understand
Why men were born: but surely we are brave,
Who take the Golden Road to Samarkand.

The whole poem is very long, available HERE (http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/PGCC/htshb10.htm)for those interested.


Edit - how could you possibly infer those comments from our posts? Is your reading comprehension limited?

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats his wife and kids, pours acid in their faces and generally treats them like shit, and I happen to be someone who knows about it and is big enough and brave enough to defend them, I have no place getting involved? Never mind that the wife and kids are too scared and powerless to say anything because the houses in their road are filled with families suffering the same fate? You're saying that I should stay in my comfy rich man's house and not help them because it's their business not mine?

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years. To say that it is better than our because it is more established is pretty retarded...If we're going to take that view, there are many much older cultures and civilisations that provide a much better example.

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa or somewhere similar where people's rights are so disrespected? Is it possible that you're view is skewed by the fact that you are perceiving these nations incorrectly?

Right, let's take a step back.

First post was in reply to Maki, trying to clarify alleycatz comments as I understood them, I thought Maki had misunderstood in part. Didn't make comment for or against it, just what i thought the OP was trying to say...

Second post: Well...it is tactical common sense. If you're enemy are all hiding under one rock (ie all troops go back to base and stay there) rather than many rocks strategically placed, attack them there. Maximum damage, minimum effort. What's your issue here?

Third post:this is quite obviously my opinion. NZ is an insulated place, has both good and bad qualities. leads to narrow world views sometimes. my opinion stated, not inferring anything from anyone else. No matter what the forum I believe that people should stand up to bullies. I hate injustice.

Fourth post: again, no inference. It's a poem...

Fifth post:I was trying to put into context what I believe you're view is saying. yes this IS inference, but I was asking it as a question to ascertain your point of view. Is this what has got your panties all twisted up? If it is, then should you not be asking yourself why someone with an alternate view has got you wound up? believe it or not, I have read what you have said and considered it. I may have a strong view on this issue, but I am not closed to anyone else's nor learning from other people's points of view.

I'm struggling to see your real issue...

[Brett]

@brett.
you did make statements. several of them. that lead me to say what i said. it DOES seem to be your attitude.
really? you'd go the "might is right" route? i got guns... it wouldn't be too hard to whack up a stake for a good ol' fashioned burning. (of you.)
or are you saying you'd fight ot the death to defend your belief?
nor am i saying that everyone in afghanistan has the "same culture" bogan probably hit this one on the head with "let em deal with their own shit." afghani, taliban, whatever. their country. their jurisdiction. their problem.

as far as my "perception" or "knowledge" of things like this, i'm not entirely ignorant (i just dont give TOO much of a fuck).
i have a palestinian uncle.
now. palestine doesn't exist, according to the western know-all leaders. so he's had a helluva packet dished out. he was a "terrorist" (freedom fighter), kept an AK47 at home because he was the first and last line of defense as far as his family was concerned. he didn't fear taliban, alquaida or other "terrorists" wasn't concerned about roadside bombs etc.
and has expanded a bit of the qu'ran for me (i have one. but it looks like it was written by drunk school kids...:scratch:) and the way camel jockeys are portrayed in the west is far from how it is.
i think i will have to employ sarcasm font, oft' times i'm mocking the mockers.
[/COLOR]



I got guns too... What's your point? You seem pretty determined to either blow me up or burn me...issues much?:shutup:

Anyway, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. But that is the beauty of it, and part of my arguement with regards to Afghanistan...people always have the right to be different. I have much bigger real world issues to deal with than trying to insist that you think like me, and neither should you have to. Equally, you need to respect that other people can have alternate views to yours, some of your posts seem to be a bit hard lined...? (Or maybe you need to use Comis Sans more often?)

The Palestine/Israel thing is a whole separate debate.

[Akzle]

I got guns too... What's your point? You seem pretty determined to either blow me up or burn me...issues much?:shutup:

Anyway, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. But that is the beauty of it, and part of my arguement with regards to Afghanistan...people always have the right to be different. I have much bigger real world issues to deal with than trying to insist that you think like me, and neither should you have to. Equally, you need to respect that other people can have alternate views to yours, some of your posts seem to be a bit hard lined...? (Or maybe you need to use Comis Sans more often?)

The Palestine/Israel thing is a whole separate debate.

i have no desire whatsoe'er to blow you up. i think comic sans woulda worked good there. the point is, that whatever your different beliefs are, you have no more right to inflict them on afghanis, be they taliban or not, that i have to inflict mine on you. just because my gun is bigger than yours, does not make me more right.
the western doctrine is incredibly immoral and shunned by many in that reigon of the world.

to say you're acting "for the greater good" by enforcing "democracy" on them is balls. and where do you draw the cost-benefit line?
i have a cure for cancer. i'll give it to you. if you kill 10, 000 pretty, smilin' white kids.
greater good eh?

"the whole palestine/israel thing" is perfectly relevant. the US decided it would support one and destroy the other, both via "political" channels and outright gun-games. the same thing happnin' all through the middle east, for various reasons, most of them to do with "money"

[Akzle]

2) "how can i infer...?" that seems to be your attitude.

i didn't mean this how you interpreted it.

there's also a stack of questions that i posed that you've ignored. (things along the lines of "do you believe the taliban will spread to NZ if we're not in afghanistan?" etc.)

and this:

="brett"]that it is the place of the more developed nations to protect the fundamental rights of the weaker nations and oppressed people. Unfortunately, ignoring the bully doesn't always work. sometimes you have to beat the living snot out of him to stop him hurting others.
is what i based much of what i said on.

[FJRider]

hings along the lines of "do you believe the taliban will spread to NZ if we're not in afghanistan?" etc.

What do you mean ... IF ... ?? Tama iti has already invited them over for "a chat on tactics" ...