Norton 961 - The saga still unfolding

[Padmei]

I was interested in the 961s & wondering what teething problems they had experienced. First thing I saw was this investigative expose.
Interesting read - recommended.

http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/08/the-norton-saga/

Norton owners club discussion on them

http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-chat/technical6-961-forum

[Voltaire]

I think they pitched themselves a bit high, the Triumph Classic series may be low tech but they tick a lot of the boxes for a lot of people at a good price.
I though it was a bit sad they turn up at the TT with an Aprillia engined bike.....like 1907 all over again....:lol:
You a bit of a Norton fan...?

[Padmei]

I think they pitched themselves a bit high, the Triumph Classic series may be low tech but they tick a lot of the boxes for a lot of people at a good price.
I though it was a bit sad they turn up at the TT with an Aprillia engined bike.....like 1907 all over again....:lol:
You a bit of a Norton fan...?

I was sitting on the loo reading an old motorcycle trader with the pre-production blurb on them & got to thinking how they were selling, any new models etc etc. i was wondering if they came up with a generic type modern adv bike whether their historic appeal/status would move people to buy one instead of a GS/Ten/Strada/explorer etc.

Me, I like most bikes. Bmws hold enough trouble for me at the mo tho.

[AllanB]

If true they do not appear to have learnt their history lesson.

[Berries]

The first time I saw one of these was in some UK mags when they came out. Then I saw that TV programme where that guy Henry rides round all over the place and he was on one riding through the UK. Liked the look of them seeing as I am getting old and so it is on my shortlist of about five bikes for my next new purchase. Just hope they are still going and the landed price in NZ is within reason. I'm not one for believing everything I read on t'internet but it doesn't sound all that good does it?

[Motu]

Cord 810, Tucker, De Lorean - the story sounds exactly the same. The Norton 961 is going to be worth a small fortune in a few years....and may even have a movie made about it. Get your T shirt now, keep it in the wrapper.

[Kickaha]

There was one racing at the Sound of Thunder at Ruapuna in February, very nice in real life

[Voltaire]

Cord 810, Tucker, De Lorean - the story sounds exactly the same. The Norton 961 is going to be worth a small fortune in a few years....and may even have a movie made about it. Get your T shirt now, keep it in the wrapper.

I used to have a poster of the Cord 810, one of the coolest cars ever..Used to be one in Southwards and a DeLorean too......http://www.tomstrongman.com/ClassicCars/PaulBryant810/Images/15Cord810.jpg
The Norton would be more like the Hesketh and other duds like the RE5, NSU R0 80, .. its value in its collector status.
As you know cheap bikes provide just as much fun without the burden of matching numbers and all that bollocks.

[mulletman]

There was one racing at the Sound of Thunder at Ruapuna in February, very nice in real life

Like this...

268648

[Big Dave]

How sad for those that stumped up the money.
Is it the name?

Really good journalism too.

[Phantom Limb]

Personally I love the Norton, but for safety's (servicing, parts support, reliability) sake I'd rather grab a Thruxton 900 and throw some of this goodness at it:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=268242&d=1345024530http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=268241&d=1345024527http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=268240&d=1345024524

[Geeen]

Personally I love the Norton, but for safety's (servicing, parts support, reliability) sake I'd rather grab a Thruxton 900 and throw some of this goodness at it:


:drool::drool: That is some really good goodness....

[Voltaire]

I had a Thruxton for a year, fun all rounder , now I just have an old BMW R 65 for work and a Pom bike in the shed for nice days...
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/Kaiuaua.jpg:innocent:

[James Deuce]

Fantastic read. Imagine if Paul Owen had written it?

Very, very sad about this as the Norton was a genuinely interesting motorcycle.

[Ocean1]

Keep the salesmen out of the factory, they belong on the forecourt.

[Paul in NZ]

and yet despite all this.... they have actually produced some bikes.... good ones too. Fuck all people have managed that

[The_Duke]

Great article..... and indeed sad.... Norton UK Ltd currently appears to be a ponzi scheme....

[ktm84mxc]

Plus 1 for the bike loved the look and style, looks like they were under capitalised and were using the deposits to build the bikes and pay for parts etc more like a cottage industry should have built ten then on sold to build more. Pity you can't get a frame kit and drop in a Yam TRX850 motor would be the go, style and reliabilty.

[Voltaire]

Plus 1 for the bike loved the look and style, looks like they were under capitalised and were using the deposits to build the bikes and pay for parts etc more like a cottage industry should have built ten then on sold to build more. Pity you can't get a frame kit and drop in a Yam TRX850 motor would be the go, style and reliabilty.


Japanese motor in a Norton :thud: ....Norahahahahahaha....:facepalm:

[ktm84mxc]

But is it really a true Norton ? don't think so just the same as a Bloor Triumph, it's just a Norton in name only.
Just like the look of them and thought if you could get the frame and running gear it could be a fun ride, I'd call mine Boris as in Boris Fuckoffsky an infamous black Russian Bike racer.

[Voltaire]

But is it really a true Norton ? don't think so just the same as a Bloor Triumph, it's just a Norton in name only.
Just like the look of them and thought if you could get the frame and running gear it could be a fun ride, I'd call mine Boris as in Boris Fuckoffsky an infamous black Russian Bike racer.

Some would say the last true Norton's were made at Bracebridge st.... You can buy new Norton Commando made to what ever year you like...http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/road.htm or Genuine new parts off Andover Norton...http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/....owned by a German.....who had the Norton name for a while and made so bikes .....and Kenny Dreer who made the proto types....its all rather complicated ..who owns what..
Then there are Manx Nortons you can buy new to....

Triumph....they were bought out by BSA in the 50's..... went bust in the early 70's ..lumped in with Norton for a while..limped on as a workers Co Coop..... sold to a guy who made them poorly for a while then John Bloor bought it....and made a success of it.

I wonder what bike company has been in continuous ownership the longest? Honda?

[blackdog]

Some would say the last true Norton's were made at Bracebridge st.... You can buy new Norton Commando made to what ever year you like...http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/road.htm or Genuine new parts off Andover Norton...http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/....owned by a German.....who had the Norton name for a while and made so bikes .....and Kenny Dreer who made the proto types....its all rather complicated ..who owns what..
Then there are Manx Nortons you can buy new to....

Triumph....they were bought out by BSA in the 50's..... went bust in the early 70's ..lumped in with Norton for a while..limped on as a workers Co Coop..... sold to a guy who made them poorly for a while then John Bloor bought it....and made a success of it.

I wonder what bike company has been in continuous ownership the longest? Honda?

Must spread rep.

I have been looking at a Francis Barnett I doubt I will turn down. 225 Villiers.

Didn't they go through about seven owner changes with AMC and James?

Who cares, if ya like it... Fuck the haters.

[avgas]

Could be worse.

They could have ordered the Norton Genesis. At least the 961 has orders/deposits.

[ktm84mxc]

And little chance of seeing the bike if going by the current info.

[Voltaire]

Maybe BMW or Audi could buy it....Germans seem have a soft spot for British stuff.....

[ktm84mxc]

John Bloor bought the Triumph name and building rights then went about building a modern bike using a modular system to help with the start up costs. He built a modern factory and used parts from outside suppliers and aren't some Triumphs made in Thailand now?

[Paul in NZ]

Triumph....they were bought out by BSA in the 50's..... went bust in the early 70's ..lumped in with Norton for a while..limped on as a workers Co Coop..... sold to a guy who made them poorly for a while then John Bloor bought it....and made a success of it.

I wonder what bike company has been in continuous ownership the longest? Honda?

Close... Harris never owned the name. Bloor bought the Triumph company primarily for the land the factory sat on. He redeveloped it into housing and while he was doing that and having a bit of a think about what he might do with the company, he licensed Les Harris to produce T140's for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Harris_%28businessman%29

[Voltaire]

John Bloor bought the Triumph name and building rights then went about building a modern bike using a modular system to help with the start up costs. He built a modern factory and used parts from outside suppliers and aren't some Triumphs made in Thailand now?

ohhhhh...don't go there....it upsets the Triumph purests who think they are hand assembled by a bloke with a flat cap on who says eup.....
Its like when they fitted Japanese carbs to Harleys.......

( if memory serves me the 'Classic Range' is partly built in Thailand...... probably shipped to England to have the Made in England sticker fitted...:lol:)

[GrayWolf]

ohhhhh...don't go there....it upsets the Triumph purests who think they are hand assembled by a bloke with a flat cap on who says eup.....
Its like when they fitted Japanese carbs to Harleys.......

( if memory serves me the 'Classic Range' is partly built in Thailand...... probably shipped to England to have the Made in England sticker fitted...:lol:)

who cares? really... lets be honest Ohlin's are owned by Yamaha. there's Kayaba, etc etc.... the 'design' is to me more important, the Triumph is a British design, but if the best brakes are Brembo, forks kayaba, suspension, ohlins, or even Ikon shocks for twin shock models, Japanese wiring looms? Would you rather a 'complete and reliable' package, or go the way of 'make do' as we used the 'best of british!!!' Trust me ANYONE who has owned an old Brit bike with electrics supplied by the 'Prince of Darkness' would have preferred better, had it been available and fitted from the factory. Remember the Honda 750 and the Trident are of the same era.
The Norton story is typical and sad, Hesketh was another great idea, The Silk 700 (modernisd Scott), the carbury 1000, they are all great idea's underfunded. Hell what would have happened if Brittan had had funding? Maybe somone like Bloor could pick up the design/name (Norton) in the future.. The design is there, the prototype 'sorted'......

[ktm84mxc]

I don't care who makes it as long as it's a working functional bike, the Euro's have the right idea fit the best parts from world wide sources.
There's a market for the brands from the past , just need a modern platform as most would prefer to ride them than rather tinker/cajoule them to work.
Hands up who remembers when Harley used the USA Gov protection laws to tax other makes over 700cc in the US it didn't help them not going bust again.

[Motu]

It's just branding, using a name to sell something. In 2525 someone will be selling an iPad, Apple logo and all - a modern version of whatever the hell is on the market then with the look an feel of the ancient ipad. Going forward by looking back.

[Kickaha]

Saw one of these on Russley road today, dunno if it's the same one that I've seen racing or not

[lakedaemonian]

Hands up who remembers when Harley used the USA Gov protection laws to tax other makes over 700cc in the US it didn't help them not going bust again.

I don't remember that...because that's not what happened.

The Japanese were dumping product on the US market at costs THEY themselves couldn't indefinitely sustain in order to kill a weak Harley-Davidson.

It was anti-competitive. The Japanese were cooperating in an attempt to destroy HD.

Harley-Davidson applied for protection and received it in the form of tariffs for bikes over 700CC for a period, hence that batch of 700CC bikes for a bit in the 80's.

It provided HD the breathing space to sort their shit out and HD actually asked the government to pull the pin on the tariff support EARLY because they DID sort their shit out allowing them to compete against the Japanese on a level playing field.

If you want to talk dodgy and unfair......you should have a look at Japan's "tariffs".

I was part of a company that produced the highest quality best value semiconductor equipment in the world at the time. We couldn't crack the Japanese market no matter how hard we tried.

Our gear was more expensive than the Japanese competitor, but it was also light years more productive providing about 40% better bang for the buck.

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.

The economic value of the tariff against Japan to provide HD with a thin layer of temporary protection was a drop in the bucket compared to what was happening in the opposite direction.

As as as "didn't help them from not going bust again." I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

-------------

And to post something at least somewhat related to the Norton topic.......I reckon the new Nortons look brilliant....would be proud to see one in my garage.....but the brand seems to have an aura of bad luck about it much like Indian over the years(particularly the last 10+)

[Paul in NZ]

but the brand seems to have an aura of bad luck about it much like Indian over the years(particularly the last 10+)

Bad luck and under capitalized adventurers with stars in their eyes.... Very sad....

[GrayWolf]

I don't remember that...because that's not what happened.

The Japanese were dumping product on the US market at costs THEY themselves couldn't indefinitely sustain in order to kill a weak Harley-Davidson.

It was anti-competitive. The Japanese were cooperating in an attempt to destroy HD.

Harley-Davidson applied for protection and received it in the form of tariffs for bikes over 700CC for a period, hence that batch of 700CC bikes for a bit in the 80's.

It provided HD the breathing space to sort their shit out and HD actually asked the government to pull the pin on the tariff support EARLY because they DID sort their shit out allowing them to compete against the Japanese on a level playing field.

If you want to talk dodgy and unfair......you should have a look at Japan's "tariffs".

I was part of a company that produced the highest quality best value semiconductor equipment in the world at the time. We couldn't crack the Japanese market no matter how hard we tried.

Our gear was more expensive than the Japanese competitor, but it was also light years more productive providing about 40% better bang for the buck.

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.

The economic value of the tariff against Japan to provide HD with a thin layer of temporary protection was a drop in the bucket compared to what was happening in the opposite direction.

As as as "didn't help them from not going bust again." I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

-------------

And to post something at least somewhat related to the Norton topic.......I reckon the new Nortons look brilliant....would be proud to see one in my garage.....but the brand seems to have an aura of bad luck about it much like Indian over the years(particularly the last 10+)

So HD were an inferior product, that could'nt compete with a superior product that was imported? The british bike industry all over again. So HD went running to the gubbermint boohooing that the nasty lil slant eyed (remember pearl harbour, Pres') are sending cheap but better products to sell here, protect us please!! Sorry mate the Americans are the 'peak' of the 'consumerism lifestyle'.... and if you read HD's 2010 finacial statement? THEY are now viewing the export market as their 'saving grace'..... maybe everywhere else which has a bike industry to protect (EEC) should now put a tarrif on imported products..... oh hang on, HD superior to Triumph, BMW, Ducati, MV, Guzzi???? :nya::nya::nya:

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too. YUP i'd have a 961 in the garage too.

[Paul in NZ]

So HD were an inferior product, that could'nt compete with a superior product that was imported? The british bike industry all over again. So HD went running to the gubbermint boohooing that the nasty lil slant eyed (remember pearl harbour, Pres') are sending cheap but better products to sell here, protect us please!! Sorry mate the Americans are the 'peak' of the 'consumerism lifestyle'.... and if you read HD's 2010 finacial statement? THEY are now viewing the export market as their 'saving grace'..... maybe everywhere else which has a bike industry to protect (EEC) should now put a tarrif on imported products..... oh hang on, HD superior to Triumph, BMW, Ducati, MV, Guzzi???? :nya::nya::nya:

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too. YUP i'd have a 961 in the garage too.


Well yes and no... Norton was making some money but exactly how long they would have struggled on is a moot point. They paid a kings ransom for the rotary license's and never really translated that into commercial success...

The point the poster is making is that HD fully admitted they had issues but they were being killed by product dumping in their home market. ie Japanese bike were being sold below cost with the sole intent of destroying the company. No matter if thats true or not, it hardly matters now. Certainly Japan has mechanisms in place to prevent that... Governments do this kind of thing to preserve jobs in their own economy - its hardly a unique example.

The attempted government prop up of the british bike industry amounted to the same thing but of course it was far too late by then anyway.

Norton - while it was turned around by Dennis Poore was in a bad way and they backed the wrong horse with the rotary engine.

[avgas]

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too.
Using that theory so was Rolls Royce.

[Ocean1]

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.

They're called national standards. Every larg economy has a whole slew of 'em, the primary function of which is to restrict trade.

The US itself was the first and probably remains the best exponent.

[avgas]

They're called national standards. Every larg economy has a whole slew of 'em, the primary function of which is to restrict trade.
The US itself was the first and probably remains the best exponent.
NZ wasn't bad at it either. Even now unless your priced cheaper than NZ - you can't get some products in here.
I recall south americans kiwifruit have to be sub-standard to get through the gates.

Likewise anyone tried Middle eastern premium lamb.........probably not in NZ...........
I also recall there being a massive hoohaaa when Hershey tried to make a big push into NZ.

But NZ govt doesn't usually disclose that kind of info.

[lakedaemonian]

NZ wasn't bad at it either. Even now unless your priced cheaper than NZ - you can't get some products in here.
I recall south americans kiwifruit have to be sub-standard to get through the gates.

Likewise anyone tried Middle eastern premium lamb.........probably not in NZ...........
I also recall there being a massive hoohaaa when Hershey tried to make a big push into NZ.

But NZ govt doesn't usually disclose that kind of info.

Yup....at least in the temporary case of HD nearly 30 years ago....it was pretty overt.

[lakedaemonian]

So HD were an inferior product, that could'nt compete with a superior product that was imported? The british bike industry all over again. So HD went running to the gubbermint boohooing that the nasty lil slant eyed (remember pearl harbour, Pres') are sending cheap but better products to sell here, protect us please!! Sorry mate the Americans are the 'peak' of the 'consumerism lifestyle'.... and if you read HD's 2010 finacial statement? THEY are now viewing the export market as their 'saving grace'..... maybe everywhere else which has a bike industry to protect (EEC) should now put a tarrif on imported products..... oh hang on, HD superior to Triumph, BMW, Ducati, MV, Guzzi???? :nya::nya::nya:

And to keep the post 'Norton'... Norton got screwed by the almalgamated conglomerate back in the 60's.. Norton were actualy MAKING money and was basicaly used to fund the other marques it was attached to.... so it went down in the end too. YUP i'd have a 961 in the garage too.

It's the 2012 financial year...you should try and catch up....a lot has changed since then....such as eliminating the risk from the motorcycle CDI insanity of a few years back.

International focus was HUGE at the recent Harley Dealer Meeting.....for the first time they've recognized the global market properly by bringing examples from Brazil, Russia, India, and China on stage..........BRIC anyone?

Since you're anti-HD and wish to see it sink you probably wouldn't believe the sales increases they are seeing in developing markets.

And in the US base dealer inventory hasn't been this low for 7-8 years. There are dealers angry about not being able to get enough stock(particularly Tourers and Dynas) like it's 2004 all over again.....but with far more commonsense.

So unfortunately, HD is not going to fall over as you apparently hope to see.

------

Back to Norton.....Maybe Polaris will buy them up...they seem keen to build a portfolio of brands.

[Paul in NZ]

Back to Norton.....Maybe Polaris will buy them up...they seem keen to build a portfolio of brands.

I don't think I'd like to see that...

I reckon Triumph should buy them.... Build a sporty twin.....

[GrayWolf]

It's the 2012 financial year...you should try and catch up....a lot has changed since then....such as eliminating the risk from the motorcycle CDI insanity of a few years back.

International focus was HUGE at the recent Harley Dealer Meeting.....for the first time they've recognized the global market properly by bringing examples from Brazil, Russia, India, and China on stage..........BRIC anyone?

Since you're anti-HD and wish to see it sink you probably wouldn't believe the sales increases they are seeing in developing markets.

And in the US base dealer inventory hasn't been this low for 7-8 years. There are dealers angry about not being able to get enough stock(particularly Tourers and Dynas) like it's 2004 all over again.....but with far more commonsense.

So unfortunately, HD is not going to fall over as you apparently hope to see.

------

Back to Norton.....Maybe Polaris will buy them up...they seem keen to build a portfolio of brands.

Firstly I have no wish, or bother to see HD go down the plug. Secondly, my trade was/is a Toolmaker (UK). Basically this means I did City and Guilds, then did HNC (higher national certificate) in effect, when in was 'working' you could bring me the blueprints, materials leave them with me; and I could have made from raw material a complete engine. My gripe wth HD has always been (untill very recently) inferior engineering, that is charged for at a premium price. We can all cite Ducati, Guzzi from the 70's with shit electrics, paint, chrome etc, but mate? A Guzzi motor from the 70's was a FAR SUPERIOR product. I've ridden HD's from the 1970's when I started riding till the early 2000's. I saw the Evo from it's beginnings in the UK, Superior product? the then new Triumphs. I had a Moto Guzzi California 1100 new in the mid 90's.. funny thing was an American mag, voted the Cali' as the 'BEST HARLEY' of that year. yes it did have a few 'typical Guzzi issue's' but was far better than the bikes of even 10yrs before. Stopped, accelerated AND went round corners for 2/3 the price, out of the box. There's a guy at my work with a seriously quick tuned HD 2.0 litre I think, but he's spend both legs on it, and it has still blown up on him. Quicker than my bike? Fuck yes, but I know mine will hold together for 100,000km's plus. This is the same shit that was spewed when the Japs took out the remains of the Brit Industry,,,,, A Bonnie better than a 750/4 sohc? yah having an effin laugh mate, I can guarantee there will be more Nonda 750's in original un rebuilt condition on the road, than an equal number of same period Bonnie's. I watched friends/mates blow up Shovel's, I watched iron head's spill their guts over the years. As an admission the HD was never built with European motorway riding in mind back then, come to think of it, neither was a Bonnie (the only bike I know that would end up at the destination (sometimes) with a full tank of gas and weigh a lot lighter than it did on departure :innocent:
What I am a 'hater' of is the arrogant asshole HOG members, HD riders who think the only 'bike' there could possibly be is a HD. "oh havent you seen the light yet" was a classic line I had thrown at me... the light? I do 20-30k a year every year, occasionally even a bit higher. I buy a bike to suit my requirements, every day ride, commuter, shopping, weekend jaunts, quick fang over the Taka's etc and be able to blat the length of either island in 'one hit'. Plus be able to withstand being parked out in the weather just about every day.... So no cruisers are not my 'thing' these days.. and I love my big inch V twins, hence the MT-01. I'd even look seriously at the new Breva 1200 4v sport Guzzi recently released, in a few yrs time.
There IS one HD I would own tomorrow, and its the one they stopped bringing in, the XR1200 sporty. THAT it the first HD I can say I consider a good package on the 'performance/handling' stakes.

[eliot-ness]

Well yes and no... Norton was making some money but exactly how long they would have struggled on is a moot point. They paid a kings ransom for the rotary license's and never really translated that into commercial success...

Norton - while it was turned around by Dennis Poore was in a bad way and they backed the wrong horse with the rotary engine.

Far from backing a wrong horse, the rotary engine, (not the bike) was a big money spinner. The air cooled engine was found to be the ideal power unit for light weight drones and huge numbers were supplied to the USAF for target towing, and remote observation duties. Unfortunately any profits made were plowed back in to trying to beat the Japanese bikes,and with the outdated methods and machinery in the UK at that time, they had no chance of success.

[lakedaemonian]

I don't think I'd like to see that...

I reckon Triumph should buy them.... Build a sporty twin.....

I'd agree.....I don't think having a brand you really value being placed in a "brand portfolio" for "synergies" is any way to create anything but the artificial.

Just my 0.02c

[lakedaemonian]

Firstly I have no wish, or bother to see HD go down the plug. Secondly, my trade was/is a Toolmaker (UK). Basically this means I did City and Guilds, then did HNC (higher national certificate) in effect, when in was 'working' you could bring me the blueprints, materials leave them with me; and I could have made from raw material a complete engine. My gripe wth HD has always been (untill very recently) inferior engineering, that is charged for at a premium price. We can all cite Ducati, Guzzi from the 70's with shit electrics, paint, chrome etc, but mate? A Guzzi motor from the 70's was a FAR SUPERIOR product. I've ridden HD's from the 1970's when I started riding till the early 2000's. I saw the Evo from it's beginnings in the UK, Superior product? the then new Triumphs. I had a Moto Guzzi California 1100 new in the mid 90's.. funny thing was an American mag, voted the Cali' as the 'BEST HARLEY' of that year. yes it did have a few 'typical Guzzi issue's' but was far better than the bikes of even 10yrs before. Stopped, accelerated AND went round corners for 2/3 the price, out of the box. There's a guy at my work with a seriously quick tuned HD 2.0 litre I think, but he's spend both legs on it, and it has still blown up on him. Quicker than my bike? Fuck yes, but I know mine will hold together for 100,000km's plus. This is the same shit that was spewed when the Japs took out the remains of the Brit Industry,,,,, A Bonnie better than a 750/4 sohc? yah having an effin laugh mate, I can guarantee there will be more Nonda 750's in original un rebuilt condition on the road, than an equal number of same period Bonnie's. I watched friends/mates blow up Shovel's, I watched iron head's spill their guts over the years. As an admission the HD was never built with European motorway riding in mind back then, come to think of it, neither was a Bonnie (the only bike I know that would end up at the destination (sometimes) with a full tank of gas and weigh a lot lighter than it did on departure :innocent:
What I am a 'hater' of is the arrogant asshole HOG members, HD riders who think the only 'bike' there could possibly be is a HD. "oh havent you seen the light yet" was a classic line I had thrown at me... the light? I do 20-30k a year every year, occasionally even a bit higher. I buy a bike to suit my requirements, every day ride, commuter, shopping, weekend jaunts, quick fang over the Taka's etc and be able to blat the length of either island in 'one hit'. Plus be able to withstand being parked out in the weather just about every day.... So no cruisers are not my 'thing' these days.. and I love my big inch V twins, hence the MT-01. I'd even look seriously at the new Breva 1200 4v sport Guzzi recently released, in a few yrs time.
There IS one HD I would own tomorrow, and its the one they stopped bringing in, the XR1200 sporty. THAT it the first HD I can say I consider a good package on the 'performance/handling' stakes.

Haha! I reckon we have far more in common than initially thought.

I'm a fan of Guzzis too....they have heaps of genuine character, they handle, they stop, they have personality, they have performance.

Unfortunately, they never had proper businessmen(sorry business PEOPLE) running the show.

And their marketing was, and is, complete and utter rubbish.

I've had some significant dealings with Moto Guzzi over the years up until 2006.

For a period, little ole me(and a number of others) were actually involuntarily financing MG......thank god that got sorted out.....and that ended it for me.

No matter how much potential they have, they will never be anything near as iconic as HD because they have had morons runnings the show who run and hide when there is a problem, and they couldn't market/advertise their way out of a paper bag.

Harleys are NOT as capable as MGs(in many, but not ALL cases..tourers/XR1200 being a couple of examples) when it comes to NZ and some European roads.......but they don't have to be, because HDs marketing people have folks believing:

HD = FREEDOM

And unfortunately, that carries over to some poor elitist behavior in SOME HD riders.

More the exception than the norm I reckon....but I find it distasteful as well....and it typically comes from the newbies...not the folks who've been riding a while.

For the record...I had the first XR1200 in the country.....if it was a Guzzi, it would have gone on a little bit of a diet and had better sounding lighter pipes right from the factory.

And also for the record......AMF HDs are pretty rubbish.....although they seem to have a rabid following in Japan......but then the Japanese collection and crave some pretty bizarre stuff.

I reckon later EVOs, Twin Cams, and Sporty motors that aren't ridiculously abused, run without oil, and have it changed regularly are pretty bulletproof.

Even the belts are becoming pretty indestructible...I can't recall the last time I heard of a belt breaking.

-------

Anywho.....Back to Norton's......would love to see it continue.....especially in a format that is both affordable and relatively low volume/exclusive...which is a hard thing to do.

On that note......I'd love to see someone sort out the intellectual property on Brough Superior and come out with an affordable-ish semi-bespoke-ish gentleman tourer.

Last time I saw someone try that they did it with an old Harley motor...the horror.

[GrayWolf]

Haha! I reckon we have far more in common than initially thought.

I'm a fan of Guzzis too....they have heaps of genuine character, they handle, they stop, they have personality, they have performance.

Unfortunately, they never had proper businessmen(sorry business PEOPLE) running the show.

And their marketing was, and is, complete and utter rubbish.

I've had some significant dealings with Moto Guzzi over the years up until 2006.

For a period, little ole me(and a number of others) were actually involuntarily financing MG......thank god that got sorted out.....and that ended it for me.

No matter how much potential they have, they will never be anything near as iconic as HD because they have had morons runnings the show who run and hide when there is a problem, and they couldn't market/advertise their way out of a paper bag.

Harleys are NOT as capable as MGs(in many, but not ALL cases..tourers/XR1200 being a couple of examples) when it comes to NZ and some European roads.......but they don't have to be, because HDs marketing people have folks believing:

HD = FREEDOM

And unfortunately, that carries over to some poor elitist behavior in SOME HD riders.

More the exception than the norm I reckon....but I find it distasteful as well....and it typically comes from the newbies...not the folks who've been riding a while.

For the record...I had the first XR1200 in the country.....if it was a Guzzi, it would have gone on a little bit of a diet and had better sounding lighter pipes right from the factory.

And also for the record......AMF HDs are pretty rubbish.....although they seem to have a rabid following in Japan......but then the Japanese collection and crave some pretty bizarre stuff.

I reckon later EVOs, Twin Cams, and Sporty motors that aren't ridiculously abused, run without oil, and have it changed regularly are pretty bulletproof.

Even the belts are becoming pretty indestructible...I can't recall the last time I heard of a belt breaking.

-------

Anywho.....Back to Norton's......would love to see it continue.....especially in a format that is both affordable and relatively low volume/exclusive...which is a hard thing to do.

On that note......I'd love to see someone sort out the intellectual property on Brough Superior and come out with an affordable-ish semi-bespoke-ish gentleman tourer.

Last time I saw someone try that they did it with an old Harley motor...the horror.

last 'bespoke' Tourer i reckon was the Hesketh... just a shame they rushed it.... it had potential did that bike.

[Kickaha]

last 'bespoke' Tourer i reckon was the Hesketh... just a shame they rushed it.... it had potential did that bike.

They're still building them with a lot of upgrades

[ktm84mxc]

Who'd have thought that comment on Harley's history can be so debated ? If the Japs had stuck to the sport bike market and not built Harley clones it would never had happened, Harley has long tapped into the patriotic belief in buy American only.

[Paul in NZ]

Who'd have thought that comment on Harley's history can be so debated ? If the Japs had stuck to the sport bike market and not built Harley clones it would never had happened, Harley has long tapped into the patriotic belief in buy American only.

Which really is a bit of a laugh and HD themselves have no problem buying non USA made parts for their bikes...

FWIW in the era under discussion the 'Japs' made mostly UJM's and its these bikes that were robbing away HD's customer base... Pure sports bikes didn't really start until the mid 80's.... Faced with the choice between a Z1 or an AMF Sportster or Shovel in the mid 70's its a no brainer. Hardly shocking that they were nervous...

[lakedaemonian]

Which really is a bit of a laugh and HD themselves have no problem buying non USA made parts for their bikes...

FWIW in the era under discussion the 'Japs' made mostly UJM's and its these bikes that were robbing away HD's customer base... Pure sports bikes didn't really start until the mid 80's.... Faced with the choice between a Z1 or an AMF Sportster or Shovel in the mid 70's its a no brainer. Hardly shocking that they were nervous...

On that note.......when I see Jap Harley clones....even though they are quite capable and competent bikes....they will always be deemed clones and HD has little to fear from direct competition from Jap bikes.

But I have always thought that if say Honda came out with a flash new CBX that really delved deep into their own heritage rather than perceived as stealing another's then it could get interesting.

Imagine if Honda built a nutty new CBX and said they were only building 1000(the first year) they'd be hoovered up in seconds and lead to frenzy for open ordering the following year.

The Japs got some cool stuff in their own heritage, why they continue to clone the heritage of others is one of life's eternal questions.

Agreed...a choice between a Z1/CBX or a craptastic AMF Harley is the easiest choice in the world.

I ride Harleys, but the first photo of me on a bike is on my uncle's Honda in the 70's.

[Paul in NZ]

Agreed...a choice between a Z1/CBX or a craptastic AMF Harley is the easiest choice in the world.

I ride Harleys, but the first photo of me on a bike is on my uncle's Honda in the 70's.

Yes - and the choice between a decent big HD and a Virago is also pretty straight forward you would of thought... Personally I quite like the whole idea of there being new HD's in the world....

[BIG DOUG]

HMM my twin cam is up to 175 thousand kays and my xr has just ticked over 58 thou kays I personally don't give a fuck what people ride BUT the amount of shit thrown at harleys is unreal,if you don't like them thats fine, hell harleys fly by wire throttle setup never gives grief unlike other companys efforts.

[bluebird]

The ideal situation is to own a Harley and a Jap bike, they offer such different riding experiences, even the so called "copies" which of course they aren't they are "of a type" are so different to ride, the Jap manufacturers are so good at spotting the weaknesses of the HD's and creating hybrid designs like the Suzuki M109, half cruiser half sporty .

[Berries]

The ideal situation is to own a Harley and a Jap bike.
Is this the drugs thread or something?

[AllanB]

HD = freedom.

Marketing.

Like the bikes but shit-the-bed I can get the feeling of motorcycle freedom on a $500 crapped out Honda step-thru.

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

[BIG DOUG]

Shit have you ever ridden an M109 I have and it was not nice.

[Voltaire]

I probably won't ever own a new Norton but I'm happy enough riding an old BMW as a daily rider, and riding and spannering on my 40 year old Norton Commando. I had a modern Triumph Thruxton and a 900ssie but neither captured me the way my R90, 900SD and Combat do.
Funny how treads degenerate into HD slagging..... I'm not a fan but each to his own.


I can get the feeling of motorcycle freedom on a $500 crapped out Honda step-thru.

I find that with my $350 scooter.....but I miss the waving :lol:

[lakedaemonian]

HD = freedom.

Marketing.

Like the bikes but shit-the-bed I can get the feeling of motorcycle freedom on a $500 crapped out Honda step-thru.

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

Agreed.....the shaping of perceptions is a VERY powerful thing.

Just look at Coca-Cola.....the most valuable brand in the world......and it's just sugar water with a label.

[Edbear]

Shit have you ever ridden an M109 I have and it was not nice.

I have and it only took a few k's to understand it. At first i really didn't like anything about it. After that it was a blast! I loved it! Completely opposite to my C50T. The 109's are an aggressive sports bike in the cruiser mould and you need to grab them by the scruff of their necks and make them work.

The reward is rocket ship acceleration, fabulous brakes, smooth engine and handling within the limits of ground clearance, but anyone used to a cruiser would get the hang of it pretty quick and find cornering a plus on them.

[Padmei]

Bit of an update- but not much

http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/10/norton-the-inside-story/

[Racing Dave]

Bit of an update- but not much



...but at least it's on the correct topic...

[Padmei]

Hmmm intelesting

http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/10/norton-the-inside-story/

http://www.bikerglory.com/2013/03/norton-update/

BTW thanks to all thos who have posted using double line spacing:sunny:

[Padmei]

The interview with Stewart garner that has been promised for ages has been published.

http://www.bikerglory.com/2013/05/norton-the-stewart-garner-interview/

After the initial investigative piece I felt a bit flat after reading the interview - were the initial concerns merely a storm in a teacup?

I don't know however I do know I like the look of the 961.

I found the comments re the growth of Euro bikes in its' own home market interesting.

[Voltaire]

Interesting read, partly explains why so many bike shops are shutting up shop here I suppose.
I can't see me rushing out to buy a new Norton any time soon....just have to put up with the old one.

[Voltaire]

Saw one at HD yesterday, I gotta say its the nicest looking 'retro' bike I have seen, owner tells me he's done some mods 100 BHP. Makes the Triumph look like the poor cousins.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/Norton1_zps5382a0d7.jpg

[Paul in NZ]

Saw one at HD yesterday, I gotta say its the nicest looking 'retro' bike I have seen, owner tells me he's done some mods 100 BHP. Makes the Triumph look like the poor cousins.


I rather suspect that if you sunk the same $$ into a new triumph you could get a pretty reasonable result...

[Murray]

Pity he dropped it on a practise lap - at least it didnt look like to much damage

[Voltaire]

Maybe.....I thought about doing a bit on my Thruxton, fitted Ikons, looked at fitting a racetech kit to the rubbish front end, air box removal, jetting etc..... In the end I sold it and that was hard enough, had to take the Ikons and screen off to get it priced low enough to sell. Any money you spend on bikes you need to enjoy, otherwise its dead money. :weep:
The Norton on the other hand would hold its value.
I could use my Combat as a deposit....:lol:

[Big Dave]

The Norton on the other hand would hold its value.


In a Hesketh sort of way.

I know what you are sayin' about retention, but if you spent the same coin on a Bonne it would be pretty trick too.

[Voltaire]

In a Hesketh sort of way.

I know what you are sayin' about retention, but if you spent the same coin on a Bonne it would be pretty trick too.

I hear you, so fill in the missing numbers ;)
Bonnie from shop -14K
Ohlins front and rear- 5k ( quick look at Ebay, of course I would buy local)
Cylinder head work- 1k ( probably more)
Brakes- twin disk with 6 pot thingies and a radial ( whatever that is ) M/C.... $ 1500
Some 41 mm flat slide carbs- $1500
Power Commander- $500
900cc kit.....and so on.

That would do for starters, $25K

I saw this sold mine, finished off my BMW Airhead track bike which is a blast to ride....total cost ...less than 5K. No way will I ever get to own a new Norton ....:weep:.....I'd rather pay off the mortgage.:weep:

[Brian d marge]

If you want to talk dodgy and unfair......you should have a look at Japan's "tariffs".

We never got a single machine into Japan....not because of tariffs, but because of "tariffs" such as failing to meet obscure design/safety/and environmental standards that had no legitimate basis in fact. There wasn't a tariff, they simply built a paper wall to prevent superior value for dollar product from competing in the Japanese market......they were and are notorious for it.


The Japs are as dodgy as the day is long

I know I live here

O, btw I bought an Enfield ,,,goes great

Stephen