1 October 2012 new era for motorcycling

[Tricia1000]

Exciting times ahead!!!!
1st October, sees the introduction of the new LAMS (Learner Approved Motorcycles) programme, www.nzta.govt.nz/LAMS , where learner and restricted license holders will have a much wider range of bikes to choose from. They will no longer be restricted to a max cc rating of 250cc.
Also, after months of planning, trialling, and discussion, the new Basic Handling Skills test will also be introduced.
If you are thinking about getting your bike licence, then now is the time to do it. For some of my BHS students who come along, I will get them to try out the new system as well, once they have passed with the old test. It will be interesting to see how much more training will be required.
So, if you are interested in sitting your BHS over the next 5 weeks, and would also like to help me trial the new BHS then please contact me to book a slot..:scooter:

Motorcycling is such a wonderful way of life, but it isn't suitable for everyone......But it suits me...:yes:

Tricia1000
Roadcraft School of Motorcycling Ltd.,
09 4261025/0800 4 LESSON (0800 4 537766)
Approved course provider
Consultant to NZTA

[Bradles]

I was going to start a new thread for this but this one is pretty close and you may have some pretty good thoughts on this...
With the new era coming what do you think the new go to learner bikes will be?
What would your pick be if you were advising someone looking for a learner/restricted licence bike?

[caseye]

I'd advise them to start with something that was small and comfortable, you know a good reliable 2 fiddy or similar, most other bikes will kill unaware, unsure riders a whole lot faster than they do now.

[Tricia1000]

Hi Bradles,
alot would depend on the physical structure of the person who was thinking about getting the bike. Considerations as to gender, height, weight and natural ability would have to be considered. Also, the type of riding that you would be doing, and whether you like cruisers, tourers, sports models, etc.

As a generalisation, and as bikes for learner riders, I would tend towards: Honda CB range, NTV650,Bros400 (Awesome learner bike) Kawasaki ER5(Awesome learner bike) , ZZR 400, suzuki GN400, (if you can find one), GS 400 - 550, SV650SU, V-Strom, Triumphs, Yamaha XJ400, XJ650, XJR650

Before everyone jumps down my throat, this was just a quick 2 second scan over the list. It is also a list that has formulated from experience of teaching students on these bikes overseas.

When I get a chance, I will go through the list bike by bike.
Remember, that if you think a bike should be on the LAMS list, you can apply to have it added.

Tricia1000 :yes:
Roadcraft School of Motorcycling Ltd.,
09 4261025/0800 4 LESSON (0800 4 537766)
Approved course provider
Consultant to NZTA


I was going to start a new thread for this but this one is pretty close and you may have some pretty good thoughts on this...
With the new era coming what do you think the new go to learner bikes will be?
What would your pick be if you were advising someone looking for a learner/restricted licence bike?

[Kendog]

I'd advise them to start with something that was small and comfortable, you know a good reliable 2 fiddy or similar, most other bikes will kill unaware, unsure riders a whole lot faster than they do now.
Bikes don't kill people. People kill people.

[caseye]

Bikes don't kill people. People kill people.

Yep and people with no idea of what they are doing, buy bikes that will kill them without thought for anything else except how it/they will look.
Same argument for guns and cars.
A limited performance, a time line to achieve adequate training in controlled environments and monitored progress all seem like achievable ideals to me , things that have a good chance of turning out competent people who can drive/ride.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advanced rider training, I'm all for sensible sizing and performance matching for new riders, but I predict an increase in the number of accidents involving learner riders in the coming year or two.
I want to be wrong, but giving novices machines capable of doing far more than they can control will do that.

[oneofsix]

Yep and people with no idea of what they are doing, buy bikes that will kill them without thought for anything else except how it/they will look.
Same argument for guns and cars.
A limited performance, a time line to achieve adequate training in controlled environments and monitored progress all seem like achievable ideals to me , things that have a good chance of turning out competent people who can drive/ride.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advanced rider training, I'm all for sensible sizing and performance matching for new riders, but I predict an increase in the number of accidents involving learner riders in the coming year or two.
I want to be wrong, but giving novices machines capable of doing far more than they can control will do that.

There will be a couple of things to watch out for in that blimp in stats;
1/ those that grab a LIMS bike at the top range when there body size is at the opposite end.
2/ drongos that read LIMS as if it was the old CC rating system just lifted to 650 and go out on something like an R6

The old beginner rider on the BMW 650 doesn't worry me as much as the 15 year old on the CBR 400.



The old rider is problably a lawyer in mid-life crisis mode whilst the kid still has potential to do something good :shutup:

[GrayWolf]

I'd advise them to start with something that was small and comfortable, you know a good reliable 2 fiddy or similar, most other bikes will kill unaware, unsure riders a whole lot faster than they do now.


I was going to start a new thread for this but this one is pretty close and you may have some pretty good thoughts on this...
With the new era coming what do you think the new go to learner bikes will be?
What would your pick be if you were advising someone looking for a learner/restricted licence bike?

The LAMS ruling is no different to the current 250 law in respect of bike performance. You could buy a DR650/XT660/GB4/500 etc and these will have no better performance than most of the current non race rep 250's.(cbrr/zxr/fzr 250 = race rep) ZZR/hornet/hyo/gpx etc are the 'average' 250's. The advantage is they will be less stressed motor wise, lower revving and more flexible in power delivery. I owned an XJ650 in the 1980's, they are a great bike, HOWEVER they suffer from the old school shaft reaction if you play with the throttle mid corner. Not a good thing for a total newbie. And they aren't exactly 'slow' compared to the sprot 250's mentioned earlier. So it's time to research, but my pick if buying a newer 'big bike' would be the GS500, EN500(and the other version's)... or similar. A good nick GB4/500, if you are big enough, a DR650 or XT660.... i would consider thosethe more 'docile' performers, and before any of the 'faster is better brigade' get stuck in. Most of the bikes I mentioned have been in production for decades and are well accepted as 'big bikes' by full licence holders that do an honest days work as a commuter/fun bike.

[Brett]

I always thought the '04, '05 ZX10 was a good learner bike. Only the truly talented learner riders make it past the learner phase....:shit:

It's cool that learners can now look at some of the bigger classic bikes as learner bikes. Bikes like a nicely restored CB350/400...ooze coolness and also easy to justify as a "second" bike once the rider has progressed, whereas the smaller 250cc sports bikes are often made redundant once the rider gets a bigger sports bike.

[SMOKEU]

I always thought the '04, '05 ZX10 was a good learner bike. Only the truly talented learner riders make it past the learner phase....:shit:


1000cc sports bikes are for n00bs, all learners should start on either a Hayabusa or ZX14.

[Tigadee]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advanced rider training, I'm all for sensible sizing and performance matching for new riders, but I predict an increase in the number of accidents involving learner riders in the coming year or two.

Hopefully the stricter BHS and R & F tests will help counter those possibilities...

[jafar]

I see the LAMS system as a good thing , for far too long riders have been subjected to 250cc or under while on their learners & restricted licences. Many who would have taken up riding have looked @ the 'learner' bikes & said stuff it & gone & brought a jap import car for a similar price. If we are to get commuters out of their cages & onto bikes then this is a good way to start.

The more commuter bikes out there in rush hour means fewer cars clogging up the roads :woohoo:

The next thing that should be brought in is a power to weight ratio for learners in cars. That would stop the boi racer problem straight away.:whocares:

[SMOKEU]

The next thing that should be brought in is a power to weight ratio for learners in cars. That would stop the boi racer problem straight away.:whocares:

How exactly is that meant to be enforced? Roadside dyno testing?

[jafar]

How exactly is that meant to be enforced? Roadside dyno testing?

Use the same setup as they have done for the LAMS for motorcycles..

If the driver is on a restricted licence & in a modified car then he gets a fine. Any learner in a V8 or turbo gets one too. It wouldn't be that hard to enforce.

[FJRider]

How exactly is that meant to be enforced? Roadside dyno testing?

Same as our LAM's ... if it's on the list, and NOT modified ... they're free to carry on. If its not on the list OR modified ... it will be impounded/parked up (depending on a attitude pass) if a licenced (sober) driver cannot be found.

[SMOKEU]

Use the same setup as they have done for the LAMS for motorcycles..

If the driver is on a restricted licence & in a modified car then he gets a fine. Any learner in a V8 or turbo gets one too. It wouldn't be that hard to enforce.


Same as our LAM's ... if it's on the list, and NOT modified ... they're free to carry on. If its not on the list OR modified ... it will be impounded/parked up (depending on a attitude pass) if a licenced (sober) driver cannot be found.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, any modification to improve the power to weight ratio of the bike is forbidden. That means that every nut and bolt technically must be OEM, and even an aftermarket air filter may not be allowed.

[FJRider]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, any modification to improve the power to weight ratio of the bike is forbidden. That means that every nut and bolt technically must be OEM, and even an aftermarket air filter may not be allowed.

Correct me if I'm wrong ... but (under the anti-smacking laws) if you clip the ear of YOUR kid ... you are guilty of assault.

Get a brain and think about it.

I've highlighted the relevant part that needs your understanding. It's really simple. But if in doubt ... ask an intelligent friend to explain it to you.

[paturoa]

Great, I'll be riding a biek that is safe enough for learners. So perhaps the rego (ACC) will become enlightened as well - wee Tui moment there.

[FJRider]

Great, I'll be riding a biek that is safe enough for learners. So perhaps the rego (ACC) will become enlightened as well - wee Tui moment there.

Motorcycling IS dangerous. The ACC levy is designed to highlight this known fact :yes:

A wee Tui does not make it any less so .... :innocent:

[Jantar]

1000cc sports bikes are for n00bs, all learners should start on either a Hayabusa or ZX14.

I sort of agree. Not that 1000cc sports bikes are for n00bs, but that a Hayabusa would be a far better learner's bike than a GSXR1000. On the GSXR1000 the learner may live as long as the first corner, but on a Hayabusa, with its smoother power delivery, the learner may survive for as long as 5 minutes.

[FJRider]

I sort of agree. Not that 1000cc sports bikes are for n00bs, but that a Hayabusa would be a far better learner's bike than a GSXR1000. On the GSXR1000 the learner may live as long as the first corner, but on a Hayabusa, with its smoother power delivery, the learner may survive for as long as 5 minutes.

On an FJ1200 ... they don't make it out the driveway. Because the bloody thing's fallen over on them and broken their leg. (with a few minor burns from the exaust pipe)

[Subike]

On an FJ1200 ... they don't make it out the driveway. Because the bloody thing's fallen over on them and broken their leg. (with a few minor burns from the exaust pipe)

On an XS1100, that happens just taking it off the side stand Trev. Let alone getting it into gear....

To the OP
For a person on a learners or a restricted license right now, and over the age of 25.
Do the current rules apply for their license restrictions after Oct 1st?
Specifically the time reductions for age, IE, over 25 years of age , restricted period only 6 mths till applying for full.
I am now on my restricted, and can apply for full in Feb next year under the current system , or Aug next year under the new......
Interested in you professional comment as a license training facilitator.

[FJRider]

On an XS1100, that happens just taking it off the side stand Trev. Let alone getting it into gear....



Or when a pillion tries to climb on ... (Ask KP.[Donna]) :innocent:

[Subike]

Or when a pillion tries to climb on ... (Ask KP.[Donna]) :innocent:

Yes, I witnessed that, so funny.....

[Jantar]

Yes, I witnessed that, so funny.....
I have witnessed her doing that while getting on her own bike, let alone being a pillion. (Sorry KP :innocent:)

[davereid]

Remember, that if you think a bike should be on the LAMS list, you can apply to have it added.


Hi Tricia

I couldn't find how to do this, and the NZTA told me that they don't have a procedure for this unless you are a motorcycle manufacturer.

Id love to be proven wrong, so please do post a link or tell me who to talk to in the NZTA.

So far LAMs has proven to be just more evidence of the inability of the NZTA to get simple things right. Lovely learner bikes like the NC700 cant get on the list as the NZTA could not resist putting a cc limit in, even though best international practice is to limit size weight and power.

Things are undoubtedly better than they were, but as usual, NZ gets a cock up, and a poor effort from NZTA.

[AllanB]

Unfortunately I just don't see young people getting into bikes. A few of course but it just ain't happening anymore as they are expensive to buy, expensive to run and you can fit all your yobbo mates or slapper chicks in to a high performance $8k used jappa car.

A sad state of affairs. Maybe when petrol hits $3 more scooters etc will hit the roads.

[FJRider]

I have witnessed her doing that while getting on her own bike, let alone being a pillion. (Sorry KP :innocent:)

There has been a few times when she was "Gravity Impaired" ... or should that be Gravity "Enhanced" ... ???

[jafar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, any modification to improve the power to weight ratio of the bike is forbidden. That means that every nut and bolt technically must be OEM, and even an aftermarket air filter may not be allowed.

I'd correct you ,but your not wrong. if it is good enough to restrict learner motorcyclists in this way then it stands to reason that learner/restricted car drivers should be treated the same.
I've lost count of the number of kids I've seen running around in turbo subarus or V8 commodores. They can do it because the law says so, but if on a bike they are restricted via the LAMS. Make it one rule for ALL learners.

[SMOKEU]

I'd correct you ,but your not wrong. if it is good enough to restrict learner motorcyclists in this way then it stands to reason that learner/restricted car drivers should be treated the same.
I've lost count of the number of kids I've seen running around in turbo subarus or V8 commodores. They can do it because the law says so, but if on a bike they are restricted via the LAMS. Make it one rule for ALL learners.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to debate that. The technicalities of enforcing such a rule are very difficult though. The police don't have the time, nor the skills to check the vehicles of learner or restricted license holders to ensure they don't have any illegal modifications if the modifications are well hidden.

A turbo fitted to an otherwise NA car is obvious just by looking at it, but if a vehicle has an aftermarket ECU, cams, pistons, or other modifications that are not obvious upon a brief visual inspection, then how is it meant to be enforced? Should routine traffic stops involve stripping the engine down to inspect it?

[Voltaire]

Its good old 650 British bikes are included as you can learn to become a mechanic at the same time......probably a 80/20 split between fixing and riding.
My lams 83 BMW 650 is a real hoot to ride.....as is my lams 78 Yamaha 200 skootah....bugger the rego is so high on them.:facepalm:
Will the rego label have indication of its learner status?

[PeloNZ]

Hi Tricia

I couldn't find how to do this, and the NZTA told me that they don't have a procedure for this unless you are a motorcycle manufacturer.

Id love to be proven wrong, so please do post a link or tell me who to talk to in the NZTA.

So far LAMs has proven to be just more evidence of the inability of the NZTA to get simple things right. Lovely learner bikes like the NC700 cant get on the list as the NZTA could not resist putting a cc limit in, even though best international practice is to limit size weight and power.

Things are undoubtedly better than they were, but as usual, NZ gets a cock up, and a poor effort from NZTA.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/approved-motorcycles.html#applying

It is probably a drawn out and complicated process, but it can be done...

[PeloNZ]

On an XS1100, that happens just taking it off the side stand Trev. Let alone getting it into gear....

To the OP
For a person on a learners or a restricted license right now, and over the age of 25.
Do the current rules apply for their license restrictions after Oct 1st?
Specifically the time reductions for age, IE, over 25 years of age , restricted period only 6 mths till applying for full.
I am now on my restricted, and can apply for full in Feb next year under the current system , or Aug next year under the new......
Interested in you professional comment as a license training facilitator.

I came here to ask this exact question. I can't find anything about it on the NZTA website. Hopefully the changes don't apply. Anyone who is in the same situation, and ready to get their Full on October 2nd, will be mighty unhappy...

[Bradles]

Just wanted to say thanks for the replies re learner bikes. It is awesome to get all these thoughts and opinions.

[jafar]

Fair enough, I'm not trying to debate that. The technicalities of enforcing such a rule are very difficult though. The police don't have the time, nor the skills to check the vehicles of learner or restricted license holders to ensure they don't have any illegal modifications if the modifications are well hidden.

A turbo fitted to an otherwise NA car is obvious just by looking at it, but if a vehicle has an aftermarket ECU, cams, pistons, or other modifications that are not obvious upon a brief visual inspection, then how is it meant to be enforced? Should routine traffic stops involve stripping the engine down to inspect it?

I'd assume that the police could find a way to enforce whatever they want to. Suspicion is usually enough to get a vehicle impounded & checked over, often @ your expense. Most boi racers have the loud exhaust, turbo'd or otherwise modified car & usually a crap attitude. That should be enough to alert the po lice

All I'm saying is that if it is good enough for the learner/restricted riders to be subject to these restrictions then it is good enough to have all the learners regardless of wether they are a car or motorcycle learner be subject to the same restrictions. Fairly simple I would have thought.

[FJRider]

Fair enough, I'm not trying to debate that. The technicalities of enforcing such a rule are very difficult though. The police don't have the time, nor the skills to check the vehicles of learner or restricted license holders to ensure they don't have any illegal modifications if the modifications are well hidden.

A turbo fitted to an otherwise NA car is obvious just by looking at it, but if a vehicle has an aftermarket ECU, cams, pistons, or other modifications that are not obvious upon a brief visual inspection, then how is it meant to be enforced? Should routine traffic stops involve stripping the engine down to inspect it?

A lot of cops ride bikes ... and the GN250 that gets clocked at 210 km's on the Southern motorway, is likely to be modified ... and "on suspicion of ... " the proud owner may risk the inpounding of, and checking of (at owners expence no doubt) .... along with a speeding fine and licence loss, plus one of riding a motorcycle for which the appropriate class of licence is not held (if it is found to be modified)

[RDjase]

I bet all the bike shops will have there 20 year old ZXR, CBR, GSXR and FZR 250's out the front and have there sale signs out.....

No more getting $5000 to $6000 for them any more, Might make a whole heap more 250 Minilite race bikes available as they will actualy be proper price, and crashed ones can end up bucket racers

[Brett]

Unfortunately I just don't see young people getting into bikes. A few of course but it just ain't happening anymore as they are expensive to buy, expensive to run and you can fit all your yobbo mates or slapper chicks in to a high performance $8k used jappa car.

A sad state of affairs. Maybe when petrol hits $3 more scooters etc will hit the roads.

Nah Allan, I don't buy that. The situation hasn't changed that much to 10 or so years ago when i got my first bike. Bikes were expensive then, jappa cars were cheap. Had all the same gear/mate carrying issues. There will always be those of us that crave bikes. I do not use m'bikes for general day-to day use, just not practical for my everyday use...but i still look forward to those days when I can scoot around on a bike. The reality is that most bike riders will have a car as well...how else do you get broken bikes home from trackdays :D

[Hillbilly]

Same as our LAM's ... if it's on the list, and NOT modified ... they're free to carry on. If its not on the list OR modified ... it will be impounded/parked up (depending on a attitude pass) if a licenced (sober) driver cannot be found.

In NSW the registration sticker states whether or not the bike is LAMS or not. If you're on your L-Plates or P-Plates rding an unrestricted bike that's not LAMS approved you're in trouble and in for some big fines. The pre-leaners BSH course in NSW covers 2 days and is really heavy on rider safety. I suppose the same will now apply here too. BTW. the new LAMS approved (Aussie) Ducati Monster 659 is here, but not on the LAMS list yet. But then, who has $17,495 to spend on a "learner" bike?

[2DriveSafe]

I came here to ask this exact question. I can't find anything about it on the NZTA website. Hopefully the changes don't apply. Anyone who is in the same situation, and ready to get their Full on October 2nd, will be mighty unhappy...

Check out the newest page on the time reductions here - http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/time.html

basically - and i quote
" Age based time reduction

From 1 October 2012, all motorcycle riders regardless of age will have the same minimum time requirement of 18 months in the restricted licence phase.

This will give all riders more time to gain on-road riding experience under restricted licence conditions."

"Exemptions

If you completed an approved advanced driving course (Street Talk or Defensive Driving Course) before 1 October 2012, you may be eligible for an exemption to reduce the time you spend in the restricted licence phase to less than 18 months. See the DL4 exemption form for further information."

The latest info I have from NZTA is that "sometime' next year there will be a competency based training and assessment course (CBTA) that we will hopefully be approved to run and you will be able to do. http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/cbta.html

Basically 2 parts

Part 1 at learner stage will allow you to get to restricted before 6 months is up if you pass
Part 2 at restricted phase will allow you get your full after 12 months ( regardless of age - see above changes from oct 1) rather than 18 months.

hope that helps
D
2 Drive Safe Rider Training (http://www.2drivesafe.com/html/mb/mb.html)

[Tricia1000]

Although we have done some preliminary work on the CBTA, it is still very much in the early stages. with the New Restricted Car licence test, and the new Basic Handling test preparations taking up the majority of our meeting times, we haven't had too much time to work on CBTA.
I didn't think that the 18 month requirement for Restricted bike licences would come in until we had the new CBTA up and running, at least that was the original plan. I knew that the DDC course wouldn't be a suitable time reducer.

As regards getting an exemption to reduce your time, if you hold a ddc certificate issued before 1st October, I expect that the same conditions apply. You have held the licence long enough, when the exemption request has been made, and secondly, that you haven't had any fines, speeding tickets, demerit points etc. Basically, you haven't been stopped by police..

Next on the to do list, should be to plan the CBTA, as I said, some work has already been done, and it is looking good..:yes:

Tricia
021 269 3246
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA


Check out the newest page on the time reductions here - http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/time.html

basically - and i quote
" Age based time reduction

From 1 October 2012, all motorcycle riders regardless of age will have the same minimum time requirement of 18 months in the restricted licence phase.

This will give all riders more time to gain on-road riding experience under restricted licence conditions."

"Exemptions

If you completed an approved advanced driving course (Street Talk or Defensive Driving Course) before 1 October 2012, you may be eligible for an exemption to reduce the time you spend in the restricted licence phase to less than 18 months. See the DL4 exemption form for further information."

The latest info I have from NZTA is that "sometime' next year there will be a competency based training and assessment course (CBTA) that we will hopefully be approved to run and you will be able to do. http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/cbta.html

Basically 2 parts

Part 1 at learner stage will allow you to get to restricted before 6 months is up if you pass
Part 2 at restricted phase will allow you get your full after 12 months ( regardless of age - see above changes from oct 1) rather than 18 months.

hope that helps
D
2 Drive Safe Rider Training (http://www.2drivesafe.com/html/mb/mb.html)

[Subike]

and secondly, that you haven't had any fines, speeding tickets, demerit points etc. Basically, you haven't been stopped by police..


Tricia
021 269 3246
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

for clarification , is this for the time inside your learners/restricted , or is all historical ticketing taken into account.

I have not been issued an infringement notice in over 2 years, so is it worth applying for the exemption.

[Tricia1000]

Not 100% sure about that one. It would be worth the 27.20 to send the exemption form in. But you also need to have a DDc certificate issued prior to 1st October this year.

for clarification , is this for the time inside your learners/restricted , or is all historical ticketing taken into account.

I have not been issued an infringement notice in over 2 years, so is it worth applying for the exemption.

[scumdog]

1000cc sports bikes are for n00bs, all learners should start on either a Hayabusa or ZX14.


And when they get REALLY experienced and become a skilful rider they can graduate to a Harley...

But a 250-350 twin is any amount for somebody who has zero riding experience.:yes:

[scumdog]

but if a vehicle has an aftermarket ECU, cams, pistons, or other modifications that are not obvious upon a brief visual inspection, then how is it meant to be enforced? Should routine traffic stops involve stripping the engine down to inspect it?

Veru slim chance of this happening, no doubt somebody with more mouth than brain will talk themselves into having a closer inspection of their ride...

And any decent cam makes for a 'funny' idle.

But not all cops are petrol-heads, so if it's your luck day...????

[davereid]

The entire driver licensing system is on the brink of collapse anyway.

Less than 45% of drivers pass the test first time, hundreds don't pass until they have sat the test several times.

Eventually the system will loose buy-in.

Young people, especially those from poor communities will simply not bother getting a licence as they know that they will not pass, and they simply don't have the money to keep throwing at the unobtainable.

We will then have to increase the penalties if such a thing is possible in an effort to keep them off the roads, but we already can't get fines paid, with millions of dollars in traffic fines owing and simply not collectible.


And of course, if you don't have a licence, you don't have an ID card. The last thing the government needs is a generation of young people who arent in the system.

Threats of licence suspension, demerits etc etc are pretty ineffectual if you don't have a licence and if you don't have any money you cant be fined.

[mossy1200]

The entire driver licensing system is on the brink of collapse anyway.

Less than 45% of drivers pass the test first time, hundreds don't pass until they have sat the test several times.




Why are so many failing?

[scumdog]

The entire driver licensing system is on the brink of collapse anyway.

Less than 45% of drivers pass the test first time, hundreds don't pass until they have sat the test several times.

Eventually the system will loose buy-in.

Young people, especially those from poor communities will simply not bother getting a licence as they know that they will not pass, and they simply don't have the money to keep throwing at the unobtainable.

We will then have to increase the penalties if such a thing is possible in an effort to keep them off the roads, but we already can't get fines paid, with millions of dollars in traffic fines owing and simply not collectible.


And of course, if you don't have a licence, you don't have an ID card. The last thing the government needs is a generation of young people who arent in the system.

Threats of licence suspension, demerits etc etc are pretty ineffectual if you don't have a licence and if you don't have any money you cant be fined.


The above applies to a very small percentage.

'Demerits' strikes fear into 'most all younger drivers.

But I hear what your saying with some comments.

The other day I took the drivers licence from a guy (130 demerits) and his girlfriend says "Oh, I suppose I'd better get my licence then, I hope I'm luckier this time, I failed the last seven times"

:blink:SEVEN times? - and then depends on being 'lucky' to get her licence?

And they live out of town and depend on 'somebody' having a licence....

[SMOKEU]

And any decent cam makes for a 'funny' idle.



To the untrained ear, a cracked vacuum hose or a faulty ignition system could sound exactly the same as aftermarket cams.

[scumdog]

To the untrained ear, a cracked vacuum hose or a faulty ignition system could sound exactly the same as aftermarket cams.

C'mon sonny, I did say 'not all cops are petrol heads'..

[mossy1200]

C'mon sonny, I did say 'not all cops are petrol heads'..

All cops need be trained in the art of sniffing bike exuasts.

[Tricia1000]

Because a huge proportion of those going to sit their driving test, show up unprepared. They have no idea about mirrors, blindspots etc to name just a couple. Parallel park in 2 to 4 moves? You must be kidding, some cant do it in 20 moves. The pass rate for Restricted car test has increased from 38% to 46%. Some people show up, and expect the testing office to provide a vehicle??? Now that is REALLY bad. Up until the end of February, you could basically get your licence just for showing up. Now it is a reasonably decent test... Yippee!!!

Tricia
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA


Why are so many failing?

[davereid]

'Demerits' strikes fear into 'most all younger drivers.

Yes thats my point. Licensing is about ensuring a driver has met a certain standard, and about having the ability to sanction them if they don't follow the rules. That is we know who they are and we can apply demerits or suspensions.


The new guidelines are 120 hour of tuition before you can expect to pass your test. Thats twice the number of hours you need for a pilot licence and its simply not affordable for many.

So if they never get a licence, they will never even be tested to a basic level of skill. And we lose one of our major tools for applying sanctions, as we cant even be sure who they are, much less apply a suspension.

[SMOKEU]

The new guidelines are 120 hour of tuition before you can expect to pass your test. Thats twice the number of hours you need for a pilot licence and its simply not affordable for many.


The trouble is that the majority of people who teach learner drivers have no idea how to drive properly either, so they're passing their stupidity and bad habits onto the next generation of drivers. I'd expect that pilots are trained by professionals and not some idiot who has no idea what they're doing.

[mossy1200]

Yes thats my point.


The new guidelines are 120 hour of tuition before you can expect to pass your test.


120 hrs WOW

I had 2 lessons for the car but I already knew how to drive a tractor.
I did a skills test for the bike and 6 oral questions plus I had just passed the car licence test.
I did a defensive drivers course to reduce times.
I bought my road bike 2 days after starting my first job with money I had saved from market gardening while at school and had my license a week later.
I had riden trail bikes on the farm though.

[Tricia1000]

I provide car instruction as well as bike instruction. Unfortunately, the drivers who are "home schooled" on how to drive, almost always (about 90%) have very poor mirrors, and blind spots. If they are learning to drive a manual car, then quite often there is excessive coasting. Parents often budget large sums of money for football, ballet, dancing, violin lessons, you name it.
But they rarely budget any money to teach their kids the life saving skills that they so badly need.

Then, parents might say that they don't have the money to pay for driving lessons/bike lessons. But, they usually have the latest smart phone, flat screen tv, yearly holidays, mysky hdi etc. etc. This might show then that the funds are there, but the priorities as to what is important are a bit skewy.
Unfortunately, the normal way to become a driving instructor in NZ, is to sit a 4 week course. During this time, you will never teach a student, or sit beside a student. At the end of 4 weeks, you get the Instructor Endorsement. The majority of instructors have been trained this way, or some through distance learning.

Very few instructors in NZ (have worked as instructors, or trained as instructors overseas, myself included). I would love to see driving instructors teach people how to drive, no matter where they are driving, not just to robotically drive around a test route.
120 hours equates to 5 hours a week for 6 months. This has been introduced because statistics show that restricted licence holders have a high crash rate, within the first 2 months of solo driving. This crash rate is lower when the drivers have had a greater number of hours of driving in the learner phase.

Tricia
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA


Yes thats my point. Licensing is about ensuring a driver has met a certain standard, and about having the ability to sanction them if they don't follow the rules. That is we know who they are and we can apply demerits or suspensions.


The new guidelines are 120 hour of tuition before you can expect to pass your test. Thats twice the number of hours you need for a pilot licence and its simply not affordable for many.

So if they never get a licence, they will never even be tested to a basic level of skill. And we lose one of our major tools for applying sanctions, as we cant even be sure who they are, much less apply a suspension.

[Glowerss]

Yes thats my point. Licensing is about ensuring a driver has met a certain standard, and about having the ability to sanction them if they don't follow the rules. That is we know who they are and we can apply demerits or suspensions.


The new guidelines are 120 hour of tuition before you can expect to pass your test. Thats twice the number of hours you need for a pilot licence and its simply not affordable for many.

So if they never get a licence, they will never even be tested to a basic level of skill. And we lose one of our major tools for applying sanctions, as we cant even be sure who they are, much less apply a suspension.

Or, you could just convert an overseas license! Much easier! I was fucking shocked when I went to convert my US drivers license to a NZ one. 60$, and they'd mail me my full NZ one.

No theory test. No practical. No questions asked. Just "Yep, take your picture here, pay 60$ and it'll be in the mail".

To me, that's way way way bigger deal then lax testing or testing that's too strict. They didn't ask how long I'd been here, how long I was staying, if I was a resident. NOTHING. I don't know how many other countries you can simply swap them over or how common it is, but there were 3 people ahead of me doing the same thing. All three from Asia somewhere. Might go a long way to explaining why some driving out there is fucking shocking :D People like me legally on the road!

[mossy1200]

120 hours equates to 5 hours a week for 6 months.

Tricia
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

WTF

At how much per hour 50?? 60??
Wouldnt want to have twins that want drivers licence each.

Cancel all insurance policy,eat only(cold) instant noodles,cut off phone and power,walk to work and get a second job to get the kids a license.

:wait:

[scumdog]

The trouble is that the majority of people who teach learner drivers have no idea how to drive properly either, so they're passing their stupidity and bad habits onto the next generation of drivers. I'd expect that pilots are trained by professionals and not some idiot who has no idea what they're doing.

True lil' Smokey, - bozo parents/mates teach the kids bozo driving skills...only the kids don't even learn all the bozo lessons:yes:
Mandatory lessons by trained instructors would make a big difference.

Cos if you're paying $$$ you're less likely to spit the dummy like the kid on the TV ad.

Funny how young people forget how dumb they were prior to getting their licence - and how know-all they suddenly become after getting it...

[SMOKEU]

Funny how young people forget how dumb they were prior to getting their licence - and how know-all they suddenly become after getting it...

I agree. When I was young I thought my skills were vastly superior to what they actually were. Until I crashed into a pole. More than once.

[Motobutch]

The new guidelines are 120 hour of tuition before you can expect to pass your test. Thats twice the number of hours you need for a pilot licence and its simply not affordable for many.


Out of curiosity, where does one find that 120hr guideline? I'd assume that it is based on 120hrs of "unskilled" tuition, as one would get from a parent or other non-qualified instructor. I totally agree, that it's the blind leading the blind in that situation. In that case however, you would expect that someone would be able to attain the same standard of proficiency from a much lesser amount of instruction from a specialised driving instructor. Remember it's just a guideline, right? No one is actually checking that you've done the requisite amount of hours when you rock up on test day.

Oh, and you might be surprised about the level of professionalism of some flying instructors..

[Dim]

In Aussie (well some states) they have driver log books which are "checked" when the person goes for their Provisional/Restricted license. Although there's no way of actually checking that the entries in the log books ever happened, I know of several people who either made up trips, or just rounded up the time on trips they did (5mins to the shops = 1hr).

As far as the LAMS bikes go (the thread seems to have strayed to being about car learners) I had a Kawa Zephyr 550 which was on the approved list, which although having ~50hp was quite a bit weightier than another guy's ninja 250 (especially getting back on the zephyr after riding the ninja around a race track). If anything the 250 was probably faster....

Also over there if you have an accident while riding a bike you're unlicensed for you are not covered by medicare (ambulance ride, drs bill, etc all comes out of your pocket).....hopefully no-one tells ACC that idea :confused:

[Tricia1000]

You don't need to have 120 hours with a Driving Instructor. Just 120 hours under supervision.

Tricia
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA


WTF

At how much per hour 50?? 60??
Wouldnt want to have twins that want drivers licence each.

Cancel all insurance policy,eat only(cold) instant noodles,cut off phone and power,walk to work and get a second job to get the kids a license.

:wait:

[davereid]

You don't need to have 120 hours with a Driving Instructor. Just 120 hours under supervision.

Tricia
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

Hi Tricia,

you are quite right that many families can afford to swap the ballet lessons for professional driving instruction.

But right now there are 280,000 children living under the poverty line. That may be careless parenting in many cases. But those kids aren't even getting shoes or breakfast.

They represent 280,000 kids that will not be able to afford professional tuition when their time to become drivers arrives.

Many of them wont bother.

Then we create a cycle of misery.

We catch them without a licence, issue a pseudo licence so we can ping them then start a treadmill of punishment that they can never get off, and that doesn't actually meet our needs either, as we never get what we want, which is safe and legal drivers.

In fact, once we start the cycle, we virtually guarantee that we will never end up with what we want.

Even the car confiscation thing is starting to fall to bits, with under half the impounded cars being retrieved.

The NZTA is now having to pay towies $100 before they will even inpound cars, as in poor areas the towies know its a one way trip for which they will never be paid.

Its easier and cheaper for the unlicensed driver to get another vehicle than it is for him to pay the fines and storage for the impounded one.

We will see an improvement in the pass rate. As those who know they wont pass stop trying.

Its all ready happening. The "Northern Advocate" reported that on average 280 people a year in Kaikohe sat a driving test before the new rules. Since the new rules came in only 80 people have bothered.

I simply can't believe that we are dumb enough to think the others are all going to catch the bus for the rest of their lives.

[oneofsix]

Hi Tricia,

you are quite right that many families can afford to swap the ballet lessons for professional driving instruction.

But right now there are 280,000 children living under the poverty line. That may be careless parenting in many cases. But those kids aren't even getting shoes or breakfast.

They represent 280,000 kids that will not be able to afford professional tuition when their time to become drivers arrives.

Many of them wont bother.

Then we create a cycle of misery.

We catch them without a licence, issue a pseudo licence so we can ping them then start a treadmill of punishment that they can never get off, and that doesn't actually meet our needs either, as we never get what we want, which is safe and legal drivers.

In fact, once we start the cycle, we virtually guarantee that we will never end up with what we want.

Even the car confiscation thing is starting to fall to bits, with under half the impounded cars being retrieved.

The NZTA is now having to pay towies $100 before they will even inpound cars, as in poor areas the towies know its a one way trip for which they will never be paid.

Its easier and cheaper for the unlicensed driver to get another vehicle than it is for him to pay the fines and storage for the impounded one.

We will see an improvement in the pass rate. As those who know they wont pass stop trying.

Its all ready happening. The "Northern Advocate" reported that on average 280 people a year in Kaikohe sat a driving test before the new rules. Since the new rules came in only 80 people have bothered.

I simply can't believe that we are dumb enough to think the others are all gong to catch the bus for the rest of their lives.

You didn't even mention how the lack of a drivers licence makes find a job harder therefore committing them to benefit or total lack of respect for the law.

I note they keep touting the drop in pass rate but don't mention the drop in new attempts and when you read the :bs: reasons for failing some candidates it doesn't take much to realise that the roads contain a significant number of unlicensed and therefore uninsured drivers on the road. If you don't have license why have a WOF or Rego or get the car checked after you and your mates lower it?

[Lula]

Just a heads up Motorcycle Trader magazine will be featuring LAMS in the October issue (on sale 1st October). It'll be a complete guide to all the learner approved motorcycles under the new LAMS scheme plus in depth test and reviews on some of them.

Also featured will be Financing your Ride - what to look for when considering finance.

[Edbear]

How about all those critical of the regulations put forward their proposal to deal with the fact that NZ has the highest death rate for drivers aged 16 - 17 in the whole developed world?

Very easy from our keyboards to find fault, not so easy to find a practical and reasonable solution.

[duckonin]

Hi Tricia,

you are quite right that many families can afford to swap the ballet lessons for professional driving instruction.

But right now there are 280,000 children living under the poverty line. That may be careless parenting in many cases. But those kids aren't even getting shoes or breakfast.

They represent 280,000 kids that will not be able to afford professional tuition when their time to become drivers arrives.

Many of them wont bother.

Then we create a cycle of misery.

We catch them without a licence, issue a pseudo licence so we can ping them then start a treadmill of punishment that they can never get off, and that doesn't actually meet our needs either, as we never get what we want, which is safe and legal drivers.

In fact, once we start the cycle, we virtually guarantee that we will never end up with what we want.

Even the car confiscation thing is starting to fall to bits, with under half the impounded cars being retrieved.

The NZTA is now having to pay towies $100 before they will even inpound cars, as in poor areas the towies know its a one way trip for which they will never be paid.

Its easier and cheaper for the unlicensed driver to get another vehicle than it is for him to pay the fines and storage for the impounded one.

We will see an improvement in the pass rate. As those who know they wont pass stop trying.

Its all ready happening. The "Northern Advocate" reported that on average 280 people a year in Kaikohe sat a driving test before the new rules. Since the new rules came in only 80 people have bothered.

I simply can't believe that we are dumb enough to think the others are all going to catch the bus for the rest of their lives.

:facepalm:What a load of total crap !!

[davereid]

:facepalm:What a load of total crap !!

Thanks for your well reasoned and researched contribution to the discussion.

You must be a business advisor at NZTA given the quality of your contribution.

[Ocean1]

How about all those critical of the regulations put forward their proposal to deal with the fact that NZ has the highest death rate for drivers aged 16 - 17 in the whole developed world?

Very easy from our keyboards to find fault, not so easy to find a practical and reasonable solution.

How about those who are all shocked and mortified about that pay for their favourite solution.

Check NZ's young driver numbers. Look out your car window at the geography. Then tell me you can regulate the "problem" away.

[Edbear]

How about those who are all shocked and mortified about that pay for their favourite solution.

Check NZ's young driver numbers. Look out your car window at the geography. Then tell me you can regulate the "problem" away.

Correct. Regulation can offer a certain amount and were it not for the problem TPTB wouldn't spend so much on consultations and policy making in an attempt to rectify it.

As always it is down to education and attitude and you can only do so much about those as they depend on the individual wanting to do the right thing.

[davereid]

Looks like big money being made by the driving licence industry. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10834337 says

.

Learner drivers have stumped up more than $650,000 to resit the controversial new test since it was introduced six months ago.

New Zealand Transport Agency figures show 7397 resits at a cost of $88 each have been taken since tough new standards were introduced in February.

And a former employee of NZ Driver Licensing, the sole company contracted to conduct driving tests, contacted the Herald on Sunday, claiming he recently quit because he was embarrassed about the number of people he was required to fail.

"After the new tests came in it was an unwritten rule that testers had to stop passing as many people as they used to," the ex-worker, who asked not to be named, said.

He said some failed candidates accused him of revenue-gathering.

"A lot of new testers were also brought in who weren't as well trained as they should be. One guy was so cocky he nick-named himself 'The Terminator'."

The Herald on Sunday reported last week that some drivers, their families and their driving instructors think the new 1R tests are too difficult and are causing unnecessary stress and financial hardship.

Out of 27,568 tests since February, 12,123 people passed and 4840 failed. Another 10,605 learners had their tests stopped because of critical errors or immediate-failure errors.

But the transport agency defends the resits. Principal adviser for testing standards, Jim Furneaux, said the new test was more difficult than the old one "but it is significant that more than 60 per cent of 16- and 17-year-olds have passed the new test, no problem".

"It is those that are stuck with bad habits they have picked up from other drivers who seem to be having the most difficulties."

Furneaux dismissed the claims from the former tester as sour grapes.

"We have not turned into a revenue-gathering agency and I don't think the money that comes in even covers our costs. This sounds like a former employee who has an axe to grind because all of our testers are properly certified for the job."

NZ Driver Licensing (1998) Limited is a listed company with six directors: Robert Carl August, Donald Roger Marley, Lionel Edwin Reeve, Michael Joseph Sidwell, James Sidney Wiles and Ian Paul Woodhouse.

Asked about how much extra money NZ Driver Licensing was making from the increased number of resits, the firm's operations manager, Gerard Clark, declined to comment and referred all queries back to NZTA's media department.

Open Road Driving School owner Matthew Harding, from Auckland, has been preparing learners for tests for 20 years. He describes the new standards as "brutal".

"If youngsters have to keep paying out for resits the big danger is that some will not be able to afford it and start driving around anyway with no proper licence or insurance."


The Transport Agency appear to have created a monopoly for a private company, then changed the rules to ensure that that company has plenty of customers.

[Ocean1]

The Transport Agency appear to have created a monopoly for a private company, then changed the rules to ensure that that company has plenty of customers.

Seems to be the Kiwi way.

Almost as if the Aussie monopolies aren't quite fucking us over quite enough already.

[Tricia1000]

I don't know where "open road driving school" is located, but since February, we have only had a maximum of 5 students who have had to resit the Car restricted test. And that was down to test nerves on the day.

The new test format is terrific.
Tricia
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

Looks like big money being made by the driving licence industry. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10834337 says

.

Learner drivers have stumped up more than $650,000 to resit the controversial new test since it was introduced six months ago.

New Zealand Transport Agency figures show 7397 resits at a cost of $88 each have been taken since tough new standards were introduced in February.

And a former employee of NZ Driver Licensing, the sole company contracted to conduct driving tests, contacted the Herald on Sunday, claiming he recently quit because he was embarrassed about the number of people he was required to fail.

"After the new tests came in it was an unwritten rule that testers had to stop passing as many people as they used to," the ex-worker, who asked not to be named, said.

He said some failed candidates accused him of revenue-gathering.

"A lot of new testers were also brought in who weren't as well trained as they should be. One guy was so cocky he nick-named himself 'The Terminator'."

The Herald on Sunday reported last week that some drivers, their families and their driving instructors think the new 1R tests are too difficult and are causing unnecessary stress and financial hardship.

Out of 27,568 tests since February, 12,123 people passed and 4840 failed. Another 10,605 learners had their tests stopped because of critical errors or immediate-failure errors.

But the transport agency defends the resits. Principal adviser for testing standards, Jim Furneaux, said the new test was more difficult than the old one "but it is significant that more than 60 per cent of 16- and 17-year-olds have passed the new test, no problem".

"It is those that are stuck with bad habits they have picked up from other drivers who seem to be having the most difficulties."

Furneaux dismissed the claims from the former tester as sour grapes.

"We have not turned into a revenue-gathering agency and I don't think the money that comes in even covers our costs. This sounds like a former employee who has an axe to grind because all of our testers are properly certified for the job."

NZ Driver Licensing (1998) Limited is a listed company with six directors: Robert Carl August, Donald Roger Marley, Lionel Edwin Reeve, Michael Joseph Sidwell, James Sidney Wiles and Ian Paul Woodhouse.

Asked about how much extra money NZ Driver Licensing was making from the increased number of resits, the firm's operations manager, Gerard Clark, declined to comment and referred all queries back to NZTA's media department.

Open Road Driving School owner Matthew Harding, from Auckland, has been preparing learners for tests for 20 years. He describes the new standards as "brutal".

"If youngsters have to keep paying out for resits the big danger is that some will not be able to afford it and start driving around anyway with no proper licence or insurance."


The Transport Agency appear to have created a monopoly for a private company, then changed the rules to ensure that that company has plenty of customers.

[davereid]

I don't know where "open road driving school" is located, but since February, we have only had a maximum of 5 students who have had to resit the Car restricted test. And that was down to test nerves on the day. The new test format is terrific. Tricia RoADA (Dip)Consultant to NZTA

Given that the NZTA have provided a private company with a monopoly, and a ready supply of customers who simply have no choice, I'm not surprised it has widespread support from the driver licencing industry.

In fact I'm surprised that anyone has broken ranks at all.

I will be digging to see how a public agency can award a lucrative contract as a complete monopoly, my OIA request is in the mail.