Sustainable population

[Maki]

I found this interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zKeRzi6sk&feature=related

Is it worth controlling our population actively through such measures as economic incentives to people who have 2 or fewer children or should we just carry on as normal and see what happens?

I vote for active population control because the alternative is an inevitable degradation in the standard of living and the earth's ecology. Untrammeled population growth will inevitably lead to things such as the destruction of natural habitats and extinctions.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/14690797/food-shortages-could-turn-us-vegetarian-by-2050/

"Nine hundred million people already go hungry and 2 billion people are malnourished in spite of the fact that per capita food production continues to increase," they said.
With 70% of all available water being in agriculture, growing more food to feed an additional 2 billion people by 2050 will place greater pressure on available water and land."


Unless something is done soon I see a great deal of misery ahead.

[mashman]

We need to change how we live and by that I mean how we work. Growth is a bad joke and has downsides that will lead us to 1 place. There is no up side to growth. It's a relatively simple fix iffen yer prepared to implement it. Population control starts at school. "Kids" aren't stupid and WILL understand that their actions will contribute to everyone's problems. The problem with this being that adults don't set a good example in any way shape or form. There's absolutely no vision and no want to change because they're alright jack, get yourself a job and just look after yourself. Competition ahead of cooperation and above all profit at the expense of, well, it doesn't matter, profit is king. Ditching the financial system is the best thing we can do. A start that would pay dividends within 10 years... and for EVERYONE... Why bother attempting to address the big issues where growth is required to sustain an economy? I'm off to bed.

[willytheekid]

....Competition ahead of cooperation and above all profit at the expense of, well, it doesn't matter, profit is king. Ditching the financial system is the best thing we can do. A start that would pay dividends within 10 years... and for EVERYONE... Why bother attempting to address the big issues where growth is required to sustain an economy? I'm off to bed.

:clap:
+1
well said sir :yes:

[Mental Trousers]

I've been saying it for years, put me in charge of breeding licencing!!!

[Edbear]

It's not the total population that is causing the problem. As noted, the world is producing more than enough food to feed everyone and the entire world's population could fit in Texas with room to spare. The world could feed double its current population very easily.

The issue as with everything in the world is management, the way it is governed. Greed, self-centered thinking and avarice have caused the problems we face not population growth per se.

If there were a collective agreement to solve the issues without politics geting in the way, it could be done. We know how to turn deserts into farmland, how to save the oceans and the environment, the soil and forests - that is not a problem for science and technology, but it is a problem for the governments and people who care not about anything but themselves.

The answer is Altruism.

Unfortunately that depends on mankind coming together and working selflessy for the common good... Yeah, right...

[Maki]

It's not the total population that is causing the problem. As noted, the world is producing more than enough food to feed everyone and the entire world's population could fit in Texas with room to spare. The world could feed double its current population very easily.



Yes, if words and politics were food we would always have a glut. Sadly they are not. Too bad for the 2 billion people who are malnourished, the animal species that are being eradicated and the natural habitats that are being destroyed. If everyone who is so short sighted was shipped off to Texas they could live there happily ever after "with room to spare".... They could eat sand and drink... well, Im actually not sure what they would drink. Any ideas?

Too bad no one ever does anything about the elephant in the living room until it squashes them and by the time that happens it is far too late to salvage anything.

[Oblivion]

I've been saying it for years, put me in charge of breeding licencing!!!

http://grimmverse.com/hardwarestoreinterior.jpg

I found you an office :innocent:

On a side note

The need for growth is superceeded by a need for greater resources to sustain that growth. If a population grows by 12% then the resources needed by that increase in population is also 12%.

The thing that alot of people forget is that growth, while good for an economy is hugely unsustainable. If a 1:1 is neutral resource consumption, as in the amount of resources they use, and how much they put back, Most places on Earth are at least an 32:1. We use 32x more resources than we can put back. Alot of these resources are fossil fuels. Crude, Gases, and Coals. And the other big part is wood, which is a renewable resource. But the time that it takes for the plantations to grow into new areas, more would have been torn down.

Very few corporations actually look at the bigger picture when it comes to resource consumption. As I put it, they are gold diggers. In it for the profits. Fuck everything else.

Put it bluntly, We're fucked. Bring on the zombies.

[SMOKEU]

The problem is that whites are being outbred by coons. In other words, the populations of third world countries are increasing at a more significant rate than that of developed countries.

[puddytat]

Regardless of wether the weather is up to one thing or another,this has to be THE ISSUE threatening our species...
Can we do anything about it...well yes we could I think if we are serious about solving the problem. Problem is we are all too selfish to get over ourselves & do what is right on this & so many other problems that face us.
Then you have the very institutions that " supposedly " the examples of moral & ethical virtue & who preach the virtues of loving thine neighbour mostly showing, how bigoted & selfserving they are.
We've left it to late, mate.
We're like a bacteria in a petri dish.....consuming all available resources until theres no more. Maybe its the Law of Things.

God has a lot to answer for...& we for creating the premise that its "Gods Will":facepalm: So it'll be "us" that will pay the price of Dogma rather than using the amazing abilities that the human species in comparison to other species, has . To create a sustainable paradise on Earth instead of the pipe dream of the Prophets of Profit.

[avgas]

The problem is that whites are being outbred by coons. In other words, the populations of third world countries are increasing at a more significant rate than that of developed countries.
That is actually changing due to education. Its slow - but I was amazed to see what progress has been made.

Now if only we could redirect all that CCF/World Child Fund BS money towards these effective education schemes we might have solved this problem.


For me the breeding/population thing I think is a conundrum. It once again comes down to personal responsibility.
I only want one child (wife will prob demand 2 though). Its simple maths for me, and its something I can control. If everyone thought to themselves
"I want a life as good as mine for my child, the best chance I have of that happening is by there being the same number or less of my offspring"
As very few things hunt and kill humans, we don't have to breed like other animals.

If all things are equal, and you want to continue on as we have done in the past
2 parents = 2 kids
If that ratio gets bigger (on average) no doubt about it, the only way is down.

What can you control?

[Swoop]

If we got rid of muslims and catholics the world would have a far slower growth rate.

[SMOKEU]

"God" invented AIDS (anally injected death sentence) to keep the population of certain species under control. Then came along modern healthcare, just because people had to fuck with nature.

[imdying]

Is it worth controlling our population actively through such measures as economic incentives to people who have 2 or fewer children or should we just carry on as normal and see what happens?In NZ, just carry on... or find a way to increase. Statistics NZ aren't concerned about a population increase, but they're pretty worried about a severe decline in the coming years.

[avgas]

If we got rid of muslims and catholics the world would have a far slower growth rate.
In regards to population control. Your either part of the problem or part of the solution. Regardless of what superpowers your god has.

[Akzle]

I found this interesting:

a) i didn't.
b) :yawn:
c) kill everyone. problem solved.
nuclear winter. H bombs, anthrax. osama bin laden. whatever. just kill them.
(you need to offset global populatio growth with the 4000 children who die an hour from starvation.)
d) 70% of available water is water. humans are 70% water. most trees are too. i'm pretty sure the ocean still is...

if you're THAT concerned. become a fruitarian. don't drive anywhere (there's some tonnage of water required to make a vehicle, plus manufacture and transport fuels), get the fuck off your PC (a PC uses over 1000 litres of water to make) and don't use anything electric. disconnect your town supply and start catching rain. (which may be illegal where you are)
not an attack at you personally, but people are bad for the planet. and while everyone loves to piss and moan and put a fucking greenpeace bumper sticker on their car, they do very little to actually minimise their negative impact on the environment.

[hayd3n]

with vaccines?

[mashman]

with vaccines?

:shit: tin foil hat required at table 2.

[Maki]

a) i didn't.
b) :yawn:
c) kill everyone. problem solved.
nuclear winter. H bombs, anthrax. osama bin laden. whatever. just kill them.
(you need to offset global populatio growth with the 4000 children who die an hour from starvation.)
d) 70% of available water is water. humans are 70% water. most trees are too. i'm pretty sure the ocean still is...

if you're THAT concerned. become a fruitarian. don't drive anywhere (there's some tonnage of water required to make a vehicle, plus manufacture and transport fuels), get the fuck off your PC (a PC uses over 1000 litres of water to make) and don't use anything electric. disconnect your town supply and start catching rain. (which may be illegal where you are)
not an attack at you personally, but people are bad for the planet. and while everyone loves to piss and moan and put a fucking greenpeace bumper sticker on their car, they do very little to actually minimise their negative impact on the environment.

Why should you have to become a fruitarian? Why should there not be plenty for everyone to eat and why should everyone not be free to choose what he or she eats? Oh, yes, because there are already too many people and too little food. Why should I not use a vehicle? Why should I not use a PC? Oh yes, because we are not at the stage where we have the ability to see our species and our planet as a whole system and act in a way that benefits us and the natural world. We need to save water because there are already too many people.

You can minimize a single person's impact on the planet all you like but that is not going to make an iota of difference. The only thing that can make a difference is to minimize our total impact. There are many ways to do this. You could have the same planetary population as we have now and ration food, fuel and water in a way that is fair and equal to everyone. If we do that, then YOU will be in for a hell of a shock because your lifestyle is going to take big a hit. If you live in a western country you will see a reduction in calories you consume, a huge reduction in meat and travel will be severely curtailed. We can continue to increase the population and we will see wars that will make the first and second world wars look like a kindergarten fight. We will see famine and desertification on a staggering scale. Finally we can make an informed decision do decrease our population to a level that can sustainably provide what we here in the west call a good lifestyle to EVERYONE. (This is very difficult for many to grasp, especially since there is an old book that says that God told us to multiply).

These choices are there for us to make. I just doubt we will have the maturity to make them. Most people seem more worried about whether their neighbor who is not the same skin color as he is will have more kids and that "they" will then somehow take over... Making choices for the human race or the planet just does not enter into their mind space.

[Akzle]

Why should you have to become a fruitarian?
so as you're not killing anything. not relying on mass farming techniques etc. exiting in harmony with the planet
Why should there not be plenty for everyone to eat and why should everyone not be free to choose what he or she eats?
there is. more than. but it is not evenly distributed. america wastes enough food in a lazy afternoon to feed most of africa for the day.
Oh, yes, because there are already too many people and too little food.
as above (you're wrong)
Why should I not use a vehicle?
pretty sure i explained that, round 1.

Oh yes, because we are not at the stage where we have the ability to see our species and our planet as a whole system and act in a way that benefits us and the natural world.
i disagree. i'm at that point. past it even.
IDGAF about shit really. i just try and live a good life and push my views whenever the opportunity arises.
We need to save water because there are already too many people.
this is con-train-dic-a-tory to what you said above. there is X amount of water on the planet. none is coming or going. we're not making any. it's all there. (as is everything else - molecularly.)
now, if you're not smart enough to argue with einstein's theory of relativity, you must accept that matter and energy are neither created, nor destroyed. and being that "you", and the "human experience" that you're having is apparently matter and energy, indeed, "you" are matter and energy:
you must also accept that the matter and energy that you experience is exactly the same as what has always existed.

how's that for big-picture thinkin'?
You can minimize a single person's impact on the planet all you like but that is not going to make an iota of difference.
it's called karma. look into it.
...ration food, fuel and water in a way that is fair and equal to everyone. If we do that, then YOU will be in for a hell of a shock because your lifestyle is going to take big a hit.
you haven't really been following me, have you? i basically exist off grid. i grow/kill/farm a large amount of what i eat. it wouldn't be too hard for me to make that amount 100%. i also keep a supply of #00 buckshot to make sure i don't have to share it with anyone =)
my lifestyle will change very little, come the apocalypse. except i'm'a have to shoot all you cunts when you turn up at my place hungry.
If you live in a western country you will see a reduction in calories you consume, a huge reduction in meat and travel will be severely curtailed.
as above.
and that's a very sweeping statement. i am involved with several communities/ societies that will see out the end of days. and i don't go too far (ie they're all "in a western country") i'm also working on the bio diesel thing (albeit slowly)...
We can continue to increase the population and we will see wars that will make the first and second world wars look like a kindergarten fight. We will see famine and desertification on a staggering scale.
we already do. it's not getting better, either.
Finally we can make an informed decision do decrease our population to a level that can sustainably provide what we here in the west call a good lifestyle to EVERYONE. (This is very difficult for many to grasp, especially since there is an old book that says that God told us to multiply).
nature will do that for us. AIDS, cancer, brain hemorrhage. something will get you. as above-above. there is only so much matter in existence. nature will shuffle it as it sees fit.
the existence of ANY number of humans, living as they do "in western countries" is bad for the planet.
These choices are there for us to make. I just doubt we will have the maturity to make them. Most people seem more worried about whether their neighbor who is not the same skin color as he is will have more kids and that "they" will then somehow take over... Making choices for the human race or the planet just does not enter into their mind space.
i'm not sure where you live. that hasn't been a mindset i've observed in over a decade.

woooooooow. :yawn: bob is sleepy now.