Gull using Butane

[oneofsix]

Anybody else not aware that Gull has been bulking up its petrol with butane? The brief article, all about taxes, doesn't give any idea of the affects of butane on the petrol or more importantly the engine but if you do use Gull petrol you might want to investigate.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/7583827/Gull-and-Customs-in-court-over-tax-rate


butane, a form of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG).


Customs staff discovered that Australian-owned Gull was adding up to 5 per cent butane to its petrol.


While fuel companies are required to disclose to motorists if fuel contains more than 1 per cent ethanol, no such condition is required for butane

[brendonjw]

My cousin is a Boat engine mechanic, most of the engines that hes worked on and have been clogged or fouled have been using Gull petrol (he asks the owners what they have been using in them) Reckons he wouldn't touch the stuff after seeing what it does

[Old Steve]

Anybody else not aware that Gull has been bulking up its petrol with butane? The brief article, all about taxes, doesn't give any idea of the affects of butane on the petrol or more importantly the engine but if you do use Gull petrol you might want to investigate.

So what's your problem? All petrol has butane in it. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to start your engine.

The MOE specs for petrol contain a requirement for Reid Vapour Pressure which is a measure of how the petrol evaporates, to meet this the petrol must have a considerable "light" end (or "front" end) and butane is added or is present to provide this evaporation characteristic.

Petrol is probably best considered as three components. The "light" end provides easy evaporation on start up. Then there is a middle component which usually has an amount of naptha in it (naptha is a mix of hydrocarbons with chain lengths usually between 5 and 12 - a five chain hydrocarbon is pentane, only one carbon longer than butane), and the "top" end is the heavier product which provides the power. Of course petrol is comprised of many many more components than just three, but whatever hydrocarbon molecules are there could best be broken down into those three generic descriptions.

I don't know where Gull sources it's petrol from. If from a warmer country then there could be a need to add butane to achieve the evaporation characteristics required in NZ, but they would probably contract that their petrol met NZ MOE specification and that would probably require the refinery to add butane to it. The petrol from the other fuel companies has butane in it, both to meet the evaporation characteristics required and to use up excess butane which is a byproduct of fuel distillation.

When in doubt, check Wikipedia:


The most common use of butane is as lighter fuel for a common lighter or butane torch. Butane gas is sold bottled as a fuel for cooking and camping. When blended with propane and other hydrocarbons, it is referred to commercially as LPG, for liquified petroleum gas. It is also used as a petrol component, as a feedstock for the production of base petrochemicals in steam cracking, as fuel for cigarette lighters and as a propellant in aerosol sprays such as deodorants.


If, and I reiterate if, there is any problem with Gull petrol in marine applications then it might (and I reiterate might) be the presence of ethanol in a water laden environment.

[ducatilover]

So what's your problem? All petrol has butane in it. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to start your engine.

The MOE specs for petrol contain a requirement for Reid Vapour Pressure which is a measure of how the petrol evaporates, to meet this the petrol must have a considerable "light" end (or "front" end) and butane is added or is present to provide this evaporation characteristic.

Petrol is probably best considered as three components. The "light" end provides easy evaporation on start up. Then there is a middle component which usually has an amount of naptha in it (naptha is a mix of hydrocarbons with chain lengths usually between 5 and 12 - a five chain hydrocarbon is pentane, only one carbon longer than butane), and the "top" end is the heavier product which provides the power. Of course petrol is comprised of many many more components than just three, but whatever hydrocarbon molecules are there could best be broken down into those three generic descriptions.

I don't know where Gull sources it's petrol from. If from a warmer country then there could be a need to add butane to achieve the evaporation characteristics required in NZ, but they would probably contract that their petrol met NZ MOE specification and that would probably require the refinery to add butane to it. The petrol from the other fuel companies has butane in it, both to meet the evaporation characteristics required and to use up excess butane which is a byproduct of fuel distillation.

When in doubt, check Wikipedia:




If, and I reiterate if, there is any problem with Gull petrol in marine applications then it might (and I reiterate might) be the presence of ethanol in a water laden environment.
Great post thanks Old Steve, very informative :niceone:

[sootie]

Hi there,
I understand that Gull buy their product on the open market but that it usually comes from a refinery in Singapore or Indonesia (much warmer countries as someone suggested).

I used to prefer Gull fuels, but about a year ago I had a big problem with it. I joined a weekend tour down to New plymouth & filled up with Gull before I left. Mine is an older carburetted bike which usually gives little trouble, but it started running really badly, and was eating more fuel than usual. I nearly turned back for home, but it kept running, and I did keep up with everyone.

I refuelled in New Plymouth, and after that the bike ran perfectly. My conclusion was that Gull had put their 10% ethanol mix in to the 91 octane tank at the last station fill up, probably by mistake. My bike really disliked the ethanol big time! Since then I have never used Gull fuel in case the same thing happens again. Up until this trip, I had prefered it.

FYI ... sootie

[sinfull]

It's the ethanol (or is that Methanol ?) they add to the fuel that's the problem, ya can't avoid it in some cases but i'd rather not use it !

Mobil 91 is another that has ethanol in it, bet ya didn't know that either !
I have to use slightly higher octane now my engine is higher comp. so you'll always find me at a BP somewhere !

[Gremlin]

Generally speaking, it's the ethanol that's the problem. A bike not designed to run on it will usually have the fuel lines turned to mush. It also absorbs water, which has it's own set of problems.

Didn't know Mobil 91 had ethanol in it, but then it's another to stay clear of I guess...

[BigAl]

Any premium brands other than Gull with an ethanol mix?

[Lozza2442]

http://z.co.nz/about-z/who-is-z-energy/

I go to Z energy. NZ owned, and they're injecting money into communities and the NZ Super.
http://z.co.nz/about-z/who-is-z-energy/what-matters-to-us/your-neighbourhood/

"A couple of years ago, New Zealand company Infratil Limited and the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation got together and bought Shell's New Zealand downstream business."

Here's their specs for their premium fuel - http://z.co.nz/motorists/fuels/premium-fuel/

My $0.02....

[oneofsix]

Generally speaking, it's the ethanol that's the problem. A bike not designed to run on it will usually have the fuel lines turned to mush. It also absorbs water, which has it's own set of problems.

Didn't know Mobil 91 had ethanol in it, but then it's another to stay clear of I guess...

Not all Mobil 91 contains ethanol and according to the article they have to declare when it does. That said I still avoid the Mobil Synergy 1000, if they have to re-brand petrol into meaningless gobly gook names what are they trying to hide?

[oneofsix]

If, and I reiterate if, there is any problem with Gull petrol in marine applications then it might (and I reiterate might) be the presence of ethanol in a water laden environment.

That they are not informing their customers and giving them the change to discuss, research or make an informed decision. It is a gas, whilst it might come as part of petrol normally if you add it to already refined petrol how well does it stay? Water contains oxygen but adding oxygen into water the added oxygen will eventually work its way out. Whilst your research suggest there is no problem but i would rather have people know that it was there in the first place and has the wiki article been biased by the companies that are adding it.

After a re-read of Old Steve's post it appears the only issue is that they land the petrol, add the butane increasing the volume but paying a lower tax on the butane, and then sell it the full volume to the customer cheaper, or do they pocket the difference and that they weren't telling their customers. But then again what were BP asking about then?

[Maha]

Hi there,
I understand that Gull buy their product on the open market but that it usually comes from a refinery in Singapore or Indonesia (much warmer countries as someone suggested).

I used to prefer Gull fuels, but about a year ago I had a big problem with it. I joined a weekend tour down to New plymouth & filled up with Gull before I left. Mine is an older carburetted bike which usually gives little trouble, but it started running really badly, and was eating more fuel than usual. I nearly turned back for home, but it kept running, and I did keep up with everyone.

I refuelled in New Plymouth, and after that the bike ran perfectly. My conclusion was that Gull had put their 10% methanol mix in to the 91 octane tank at the last station fill up, probably by mistake. My bike really disliked the methanol big time! Since then I have never used Gull fuel in case the same thing happens again. Up until this trip, I had prefered it.

FYI ... sootie

...and I smells like Rotorua on very damp day....(Gull Gs I mean) :sick:
You know what fuel has been pumped into a vehicle when you are behind it.

[Old Steve]

it appears the only issue is that they land the petrol, add the butane increasing the volume but paying a lower tax on the butane, and then sell it the full volume to the customer cheaper, or do they pocket the difference and that they weren't telling their customers.

Um, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The fuel companies pay a single duty rate on what they sell. So if Gull have butane added to their petrol then they will be paying one single duty on all of the petrol, butane included. Pedantically it is a duty and not a tax, therefore it can be taxed by the addition of GST so you don't actually have a tax on a tax but are paying a tax on a duty.

What Gull pay is a lower duty on the ethanol they blend into their petrol locally (as is allowed by the MOE specifications), this is a Government incentive to have locally produced fuel included in the market. But don't confuse the butane with the ethanol.

While butane is a liquid, albeit a low boiling point one, you can't just store it and pour it into the petrol. So they won't be adding the butane to the petrol they land here at their terminal in Mt Maunganui. It'll have to be added at the refinery as part of the overall formulation of the fuel. And being a hydrocarbon too, butane is miscible with other hydrocarbons so does tend to stay in suspension in the finished product.

[oneofsix]

Um, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The fuel companies pay a single duty rate on what they sell. So if Gull have butane added to their petrol then they will be paying one single duty on all of the petrol, butane included. Pedantically it is a duty and not a tax, therefore it can be taxed by the addition of GST so you don't actually have a tax on a tax but are paying a tax on a duty.

What Gull pay is a lower duty on the ethanol they blend into their petrol locally (as is allowed by the MOE specifications), this is a Government incentive to have locally produced fuel included in the market. But don't confuse the butane with the ethanol.

While butane is a liquid, albeit a low boiling point one, you can't just store it and pour it into the petrol. So they won't be adding the butane to the petrol they land here at their terminal in Mt Maunganui. It'll have to be added at the refinery as part of the overall formulation of the fuel. And being a hydrocarbon too, butane is miscible with other hydrocarbons so does tend to stay in suspension in the finished product.

You may be correct but the article and the court cases are around Gull paying less duty due to their adding the butane which attracts a lower rate. I presume this is an import duty as it is customs that has been fighting Gull in court, if it was a tax then I would have expected it to be the IRD.

I don't know shit about butane in petrol etc I just posted it in case it did affect anyone. There was no mention in the article of Gull using ethanol only that if a petrol supplier did they had to declare it but that they don't have to declare the butane, something that the AA want changed.

[steve_t]

Gull could be gaining a tax advantage of around 1 or 2 cents per litre... hmmm... Gull sells their petrol for up to 20c a litre cheaper than their competitors. Is NZ Customs about to be privatised or something?

[oneofsix]

Gull could be gaining a tax advantage of around 1 or 2 cents per litre... hmmm... Gull sells their petrol for up to 20c a litre cheaper than their competitors. Is NZ Customs about to be privatised or something?

fighting for their jobs? :whistle:

When I first posted I thought customs were protecting the NZ public :facepalm: More like supporting the petrol cartel as request by BP? :2guns:

[pete376403]

Don't you guys read the information labels attached to the pumps? Mobils pumps pretty clearly state that the 91 blend may contain "up to 10%(IIRC) ethanol" and the 96 blend conatians up to 5% ethanol. It's not like they are trying to hide anything.

[MarkW]

Both my Honda Deauvilles (made in the Montessa factory in Spain) run further and better on Gull 91 than they do on any other NZ fuel.

Both my DRZ's need 95 octane and run on any brand of 95 but after half a tank of 10% ethanol Gull fuel they don't idle very well until they get a non ethanol blend.

My Subaru Forestor also needs 95 octane and there is a specific warning to NOT use any ethanol fuel in it. So no Gull fuel at all.

Then the Nissan X-Trail runs on 91 but uses far more Gull 91 than it does any of the other brands.

Doesn't life get complicated!

[sootie]

Both my Honda Deauvilles (made in the Montessa factory in Spain) run further and better on Gull 91 than they do on any other NZ fuel.

Both my DRZ's need 95 octane and run on any brand of 95 but after half a tank of 10% ethanol Gull fuel they don't idle very well until they get a non ethanol blend.

My Subaru Forestor also needs 95 octane and there is a specific warning to NOT use any ethanol fuel in it. So no Gull fuel at all.

Then the Nissan X-Trail runs on 91 but uses far more Gull 91 than it does any of the other brands.

Doesn't life get complicated!

Found these statement interesting, and I believe them.
I have had vehicles run better on Gull 91 than any other fuel I have ever used. Usually however nowdays the performance is just similar to other fuels. Does this reflect buying from all over the place on the spot market? It might also explain the funny (sulphurous?) smell sometimes.
As mentioned in an earlier blog I stopped using Gull because I believe they filled one of their 91 Octane tanks with their ethanol blend by mistake & it nearly ruined a ride for me. I can't prove this, but it still got them ex-communicated for supply of bike fuel to me!
cheers

[sinfull]

Don't you guys read the information labels attached to the pumps? Mobils pumps pretty clearly state that the 91 blend may contain "up to 10%(IIRC) ethanol" and the 96 blend conatians up to 5% ethanol. It's not like they are trying to hide anything.
All the more reason to eat BP pies

[Geeen]

Was talking to my local bike shop today, they had a customer come in with a bike running poorly. Turns out it was filled at Gull and the fuel left a film of crap over all the plugs and other internals. The thing that would've pissed me of the most was the customer had bought it brand new 2 days before. Did a bit of "internet research" a while ago about bikes with plastic tanks and Ethanol blends, some shocking stories out there. Like the Ducati owners who had Ethanol mix fuel warp and expand their tanks, fuel lines being dissolved etc. Thats why I stick with Caltex.....

[nzspokes]

My Bandit manual says it can take up to 10% ethanol blend. Runs fine on it and has not assploded. Also my Maxima runs well on it for 20000ks.

[Garfield]

Both my Honda Deauvilles (made in the Montessa factory in Spain) run further and better on Gull 91 than they do on any other NZ fuel.

Both my DRZ's need 95 octane and run on any brand of 95 but after half a tank of 10% ethanol Gull fuel they don't idle very well until they get a non ethanol blend.

My Subaru Forestor also needs 95 octane and there is a specific warning to NOT use any ethanol fuel in it. So no Gull fuel at all.

Then the Nissan X-Trail runs on 91 but uses far more Gull 91 than it does any of the other brands.

Doesn't life get complicated!

Similar story, my Subaru runs on 95 and the warning is not to use ethanol fuel.

I use BP 95 in the Bandit as I have heard too many stories of bikes idling badly and the ethanol turning fuel lines to crap.. I was told by a friend at the AA that ethanol fuel was ok to use in later model cars made specifically for the NZ market. Any car / vehicle made for overseas markets should not use ethanol fuels. Why........ I don't know......

[sootie]

Similar story, my Subaru runs on 95 and the warning is not to use ethanol fuel.

I use BP 95 in the Bandit as I have heard too many stories of bikes idling badly and the ethanol turning fuel lines to crap.. I was told by a friend at the AA that ethanol fuel was ok to use in later model cars made specifically for the NZ market. Any car / vehicle made for overseas markets should not use ethanol fuels. Why........ I don't know......

Further to my earlier story, there are at least two possible issues with ethanol fuels in older engines. In some cases the fuel line and other fuel containment plastics or rubbers can actually be attacked by the ethanol. (Hence the stories of sticky films, lumps of goo etc.) Actually this is not usually the problem unless a vehicle is pretty old (at least pre 90s).

Carburetted engines have another problem. They need to be retuned for a different fuel, and this may even require re-jetting etc. I picked this was why my bike started running badly. A change of fuel certainly fixed the problem.

Modern engines with fuel injection & computer management systems usually cope very well with fuel changes. An oxygen sensor in the exhaust system "talks" to the computer once it warms up, and the mixture is adjusted without the need for an owner to twiddle anything.

Maybe this helps to explain things mentioned

[Edbear]

Don't you guys read the information labels attached to the pumps? Mobils pumps pretty clearly state that the 91 blend may contain "up to 10%(IIRC) ethanol" and the 96 blend conatians up to 5% ethanol. It's not like they are trying to hide anything.

You expect people to read?


Further to my earlier story, there are at least two possible issues with ethanol fuels in older engines. In some cases the fuel line and other fuel containment plastics or rubbers can actually be attacked by the ethanol. (Hence the stories of sticky films, lumps of goo etc.) Actually this is not usually the problem unless a vehicle is pretty old (at least pre 90s).

Carburetted engines have another problem. They need to be retuned for a different fuel, and this may even require re-jetting etc. I picked this was why my bike started running badly. A change of fuel certainly fixed the problem.

Modern engines with fuel injection & computer management systems usually cope very well with fuel changes. An oxygen sensor in the exhaust system "talks" to the computer once it warms up, and the mixture is adjusted without the need for an owner to twiddle anything.

Maybe this helps to explain things mentioned

Yup. My new Kizashi will run the same on any brand. Haven't checked on the blended fuel though. I'll have to read the manual again.

The MX5 does notice the difference and runs best on 95. My C50T ran fine on blended and was approved for it. 98 was best though it seemed to be tuned to it despite the manual saying it could use 91.

[Eddieb]

Up until recently I ran my bike (DR650) and car (BMW 520i) almost exclusively on Shell/Z 95, mainly because they were my local garage. However when Z introduced their new additive formula 4 months or so ago I noticed both vehicles felt like they had lost power and were definately getting lower mileage per tank.

I've now changed to Caltex 95 and both vehicles feel like they are running stronger and both have recorded increased economy.

[Conquiztador]

Interesting topic. My youngest rides MX and currently it is a KTM 2stroke 65cc that needs premix. We have found that BP 91 works well. Once, before I knew about the ethanol mix at Gull, we used Gull. And the bike did perform poorly. At that stage I did not understand why. But later I concluded that the ethanol was the cause. As there is no "ping'ing" in the motor when warm I do not use higher octane petrol as there is no need.

In NZ we are not allowed to do any engine modifications to Mini bikes (kids riding in 11yo and under classes) This also applies to the fuel. But this does not apply to Junior and senior MX racing. Would be interesting to find out what fuel is used by the top riders (I have learnt that there is a mutitude of specifically made racing fuels for all and any occasions and uses).

[sootie]

Up until recently I ran my bike (DR650) and car (BMW 520i) almost exclusively on Shell/Z 95, mainly because they were my local garage. However when Z introduced their new additive formula 4 months or so ago I noticed both vehicles felt like they had lost power and were definately getting lower mileage per tank.

I've now changed to Caltex 95 and both vehicles feel like they are running stronger and both have recorded increased economy.
As I understand it, all NZ petrol is now produced by the refinery at Marsden Point (except for Gull which is bought on the spot market from various sources overseas.) All product including avgas, petrol, diesel, aviation fuel etc is piped down the one pipeline from Marsden point to Wiri.
From Wiri the product goes out to the various retail suppliers. These suppliers titivate their product in their own way & then distribute it. I think the exact formulas are kept pretty quiet, but there are some differences in performance which arise I am told. Your findings may well be correct.

[BigAl]

After doing some research Mobil seem to be using an Ethanol blend E10 in Synergy 8000 (98 octane) around the Wellington area and I checked my local ham station who said that they weren't.

It should be labelled on the pump so pays to check.

[Old Steve]

As I understand it, all NZ petrol is now produced by the refinery at Marsden Point (except for Gull which is bought on the spot market from various sources overseas.) All product including avgas, petrol, diesel, aviation fuel etc is piped down the one pipeline from Marsden point to Wiri.

You bloody JAFA!!! There is a part of New Zealand which is below the Bombay Hills you know!

Yes all AUCKLAND fuel comes down the pipeline from Marsden point to WOSL (Wiri). Northland's fuel is despatched by road tanker from a delivery point adjacent to Marsden point. Other ports around the country receive their fuel by ocean tanker, either from Marsden point by NZ operated coastal tankers or direct from overseas. Marsden Point cannot produce enough fuel to completely supply the NZ market. Mt Maunganui receives completely imported petrol because it is such a deep port, so large ocean tankers from overseas unload there first so they are lighter (draw less draught) and they can then go into other ports and unload.

[sootie]

You bloody JAFA!!! There is a part of New Zealand which is below the Bombay Hills you know!

Yes all AUCKLAND fuel comes down the pipeline from Marsden point to WOSL (Wiri). Northland's fuel is despatched by road tanker from a delivery point adjacent to Marsden point. Other ports around the country receive their fuel by ocean tanker, either from Marsden point by NZ operated coastal tankers or direct from overseas. Marsden Point cannot produce enough fuel to completely supply the NZ market. Mt Maunganui receives completely imported petrol because it is such a deep port, so large ocean tankers from overseas unload there first so they are lighter (draw less draught) and they can then go into other ports and unload.

I thought you were mainly on coal down there .....?
Actually, sorry about that Steve, I come from Dunedin originally, and we Jafas love Tauranga really. It is only your parliamentary representation we sometimes have a few reservations about. cheershttp://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/icons/icon11.png

[Old Steve]

Yeah, we had a problem with our parliamentary representative too. Hence the new man now, Simon Bridges.

I went to University at the same time as Whinny, and I thought his parents weren't married then and I don't think they've married since :innocent: Just before the last election I was down town and NZ First were soliciting for votes on one corner. I told one of the canvassers who approached me that I'd never vote for them until they got rid of Whinny, and who walks around the corner and holds his hand out to shake mine but the Peters himself. Nearly laughed til I cried.

[sootie]

Yeah, we had a problem with our parliamentary representative too. Hence the new man now, Simon Bridges.

I went to University at the same time as Whinny, and I thought his parents weren't married then and I don't think they've married since :innocent: Just before the last election I was down town and NZ First were soliciting for votes on one corner. I told one of the canvassers who approached me that I'd never vote for them until they got rid of Whinny, and who walks around the corner and holds his hand out to shake mine but the Peters himself. Nearly laughed til I cried.

I think he is one of those people who just turn up like the bad penny whether they are wanted or not. My wife & I were in Tauranga a few years ago (I think an election might have been in the offing!) and who crosses the road to greet us, but the same man. He made me feel as if he had been hanging around all morning just to shake my hand, but he is of course a politician & has to be able to do that!

You look about the same vintage as me Steve - finished an Engineering Degree in 1970, remember the moon landing and all that well. Go well mate - hope to catch up.

[bsasuper]

Its an aussie company - what do you expect!, I never use gull, they are cheap for a reason!

[Old Steve]

You look about the same vintage as me Steve - finished an Engineering Degree in 1970, remember the moon landing and all that well. Go well mate - hope to catch up.

Auckland School of Engineering, Symmonds St? I was there 68 and 69 - if you were there you must have been in the first 1st Pro which didn't go to Ardmore?

[sootie]

Auckland School of Engineering, Symmonds St? I was there 68 and 69 - if you were there you must have been in the first 1st Pro which didn't go to Ardmore?

Sent you some mail Steve ... T