LAMS Approval

[Waipukbiker]

Ive just had a look at the NZTA Site refering to conditions concerning motorcycles and Im pasting a couple of notes from the site which may be of interest.

1. A maximum power-to-weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne (the power is that specified by the manufacturer and the weight is the weight specified by the manufacturer plus 90kgs for the rider and riding gear); and
an upper engine capacity limit of 660cc.

2. Any motorcycle modified in a way that increases its power-to-weight ratio is no longer LAMS-compliant, regardless of whether it appears on the list.

The power-to-weight ratio calculation involves the power output (kilowatts)
being divided by the tare weight of the motorcycle plus 90 kg (for rider and safety gear).
The result is then multiplied by 1000 (to convert to kW per tonne).

So, To interpret the above, if you weigh more than 90KG including your gear on a learner licence, you must be on a bike below 250cc?

or, if you lighten the bike to compensate for the extra weight is it ok?

I see a few Trade me bikes are being advertised as LAMS approved by private and dealer sellers with intake , exhaust or fuel mods done.
Are they in breach of the new regs?

Have I interpreted the above notes wrong?

[huff3r]

Ive just had a look at the NZTA Site refering to conditions concerning motorcycles and Im pasting a couple of notes from the site which may be of interest.

1. A maximum power-to-weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne (the power is that specified by the manufacturer and the weight is the weight specified by the manufacturer plus 90kgs for the rider and riding gear); and
an upper engine capacity limit of 660cc.

2. Any motorcycle modified in a way that increases its power-to-weight ratio is no longer LAMS-compliant, regardless of whether it appears on the list.

The power-to-weight ratio calculation involves the power output (kilowatts)
being divided by the tare weight of the motorcycle plus 90 kg (for rider and safety gear).
The result is then multiplied by 1000 (to convert to kW per tonne).

So, To interpret the above, if you weigh more than 90KG including your gear on a learner licence, you must be on a bike below 250cc?

or, if you lighten the bike to compensate for the extra weight is it ok?

I see a few Trade me bikes are being advertised as LAMS approved by private and dealer sellers with intake , exhaust or fuel mods done.
Are they in breach of the new regs?

Have I interpreted the above notes wrong?

Questions 1: No. Wether the bike is legal or not has nothing to do with your weight, they have used a generic figure of 90kg to decide which bikes to allow. If you are not 90kg, it doesnt matter thats just the figure they used to crunch the numbers.

Question 2: Yes, a bike with intake or exhaust mods is most likely not LAMS approved, and therefore would not be allowed under the new regs. Most likely dealers and sellers are not paying much attention to all of the rules, and just going by the list.

[Jantar]

The 90 kg rider estimation is only for the purposes of making the initial calculation. That actual weight of the rider doesn't matter.

If the weight of the rider did matter, then heavier riders would be fine as that would increase the weight and hence reduce the PTW ratio. It would be lighter riders who would have to add weight.

Modifying a bike is OK as long as it doesn't increase the PTW ratio. So mods that increase weight are fine, mods that increase power are not.

[Madness]

People are so nervous around this whole LAMS thing. So long as you don't wedge a motor twice the size of the original, or hang a super-charger off the side of your bike, who's going to know? You won't fail a WOF at a testing station based on the status of your drivers licence and Mr Plod isn't going to take your cylinder head off on the roadside. Avoid wanky stickers & fancy exhaust systems & you'll be sweet I reckon :niceone:

[Ocean1]

People are so nervous around this whole LAMS thing. So long as you don't wedge a motor twice the size of the original, or hang a super-charger off the side of your bike, who's going to know?

And who's to care, with options like a KTM300 EXC on offer at 100Kg and 60bhp why would you? I'd do the arithmetic on that but I'm busy working on my 3rd whisky and I can't be fook't. Pretty sure it's a tad over 150hp/Ton, though, even with a well porky rider.

[FJRider]

Modifying a bike is OK as long as it doesn't increase the PTW ratio. So mods that increase weight are fine, mods that increase power are not.

As I read it ... Any modifications made for the purpose of increasing the power to weight ratio are banned.
Smaller indicators, lighter air filters, aftermarket exaust systems (often not much lighter anyway) ... all added up, wont do much to alter the power/weight ratio in your favour.
Engine internal modifications may do it ... but any learner rider would be silly to advertise it. Hardly worth the bother to a LAM's class bike untill you have a full licence. Then you GET a fast/powerful bike ...

[tigertim20]

The 90 kg rider estimation is only for the purposes of making the initial calculation. That actual weight of the rider doesn't matter.

If the weight of the rider did matter, then heavier riders would be fine as that would increase the weight and hence reduce the PTW ratio. It would be lighter riders who would have to add weight.

Modifying a bike is OK as long as it doesn't increase the PTW ratio. So mods that increase weight are fine, mods that increase power are not.
unless it increases BOTH the weight, AND the performance! but why would ya!

People are so nervous around this whole LAMS thing. So long as you don't wedge a motor twice the size of the original, or hang a super-charger off the side of your bike, who's going to know? You won't fail a WOF at a testing station based on the status of your drivers licence and Mr Plod isn't going to take your cylinder head off on the roadside. Avoid wanky stickers & fancy exhaust systems & you'll be sweet I reckon :niceone:

pretty much on the money. its a matter of whether the cop on the side of the road realises the thing has been modded. Even if they do notice, Id say its something they will only ticket you for if you fail the attitude test anyway.

[Waipukbiker]

Its like any law, Its only as effective as to how well it can be policed.

Just dont be a dumbarse and draw attention to yourself.

[White trash]

And who's to care, with options like a KTM300 EXC on offer at 100Kg and 60bhp why would you? I'd do the arithmetic on that but I'm busy working on my 3rd whisky and I can't be fook't. Pretty sure it's a tad over 150hp/Ton, though, even with a well porky rider.

Not as they come out of the crate they're not 60hp. All those Euro, road legal dirt bikes are so strangled, they wont actually run at any throttle position higher than 1/3.

[Ocean1]

Not as they come out of the crate they're not 60hp. All those Euro, road legal dirt bikes are so strangled, they wont actually run at any throttle position higher than 1/3.

Ah, OK.

So the difference is between the road legal ones and the non-registered ones?

Or is it just that the whole latest batch has been neutered?

[Waipukbiker]

Got to stop them breeding somehow, might end up with a DR650 having an orange frame:gob:

[White trash]

Ah, OK.

So the difference is between the road legal ones and the non-registered ones?

Or is it just that the whole latest batch has been neutered?

Nope. They're all exactly the same. The service department spends over an hour on each bike derestricting them before sale. Which we will now have to ascertain whether it's to be ridden on a learner/restricted licence or not before doing so.

[clint640]

And who's to care, with options like a KTM300 EXC on offer at 100Kg and 60bhp why would you? I'd do the arithmetic on that but I'm busy working on my 3rd whisky and I can't be fook't. Pretty sure it's a tad over 150hp/Ton, though, even with a well porky rider.

Looks like a 'tarded 300EXC might be just about the maddest thing you can buy today & ride on a learners. What else is on the list that would be fairly crazy to put a learner on in derestricted form? I know there is all sorts of mental old stuff like IT490s & suchlike on there.

Cheers
Clint

[ducatilover]

Nope. They're all exactly the same. The service department spends over an hour on each bike derestricting them before sale. Which we will now have to ascertain whether it's to be ridden on a learner/restricted licence or not before doing so.

How are they restricted from factory? They look like a ridiculously fun bit of kit

[clint640]

How are they restricted from factory? They look like a ridiculously fun bit of kit

I know a lot of carbed dirtbikes just have something stopping the slide opening all the way. I think in some markets it's more of a noise/emissions thing than a learner legal issue.

Clint

[JATZ]

Sortof related....
I tried to get insurance for the boy so he'd be covered riding to tech on the 650. Insurance company refused on the grounds that at his age (18) he's restricted to 400cc or less, regardless of the fact he holds a full licence.
I queried them on the new laws and what would happen when they came in, the lovely lady knew nothing about them.

[FJRider]

Sortof related....
I tried to get insurance for the boy so he'd be covered riding to tech on the 650. Insurance company refused on the grounds that at his age (18) he's restricted to 400cc or less, regardless of the fact he holds a full licence.
I queried them on the new laws and what would happen when they came in, the lovely lady knew nothing about them.

Just because the law says you can ride a 650 ... that doesn't mean an insurance company HAS to insure him. If their policy's say No ... No it is. I fail to see how or why the LAM's laws should make them change any of their policys.

He'll just have to wait untill he's 18 to be insured.

[Waipukbiker]

Have to agree with that, I would be reluctent to insure a rider on a learners licence who has just purchased a DRZ400 for example.
Be interesting to see how the insurance companies run with the new laws.

[NordieBoy]

Just because the law says you can ride a 650 ... that doesn't mean an insurance company HAS to insure him. If their policy's say No ... No it is. I fail to see how or why the LAM's laws should make them change any of their policys.

He'll just have to wait untill he's 18 to be insured.

He is 18.

[FJRider]

He is 18.

My apologies .... I misread it.

He'll have to wait untill they decide he is old enough. Or at least untill their policy's allow him to be insured.

The joys of youth ...

[JATZ]

My apologies .... I misread it.

He'll have to wait untill they decide he is old enough. Or at least untill their policy's allow him to be insured.

The joys of youth ...

It's o.k. :innocent: I was merely making an observation.
How many learners/restricted riders will be rushing out to get +250cc bikes only to find out they won't be able to get insurance, however this is only one company. I know others have different policys

[FJRider]

It's o.k. :innocent: I was merely making an observation.
How many learners/restricted riders will be rushing out to get +250cc bikes only to find out they won't be able to get insurance, however this is only one company. I know others have different policys

Many insurance companys wont insure motorbike at all. As you say ... it it only ONE company that you asked. I inquired with a few, untill I found one that suited ...

I was not trying to be the smarty-pants ... but the insurance companys are not bound by law to change the contents of their policys ... automatically on the change of drivers licence legislation ...

At best ... some may change (if they dont already) by adding the clause ... having the correct class of licence for that motorcycle.

And only change ... if it suits ... THEM.

[warewolf]

I know a lot of carbed dirtbikes just have something stopping the slide opening all the way. I think in some markets it's more of a noise/emissions thing than a learner legal issue.Probably a bit of both. My 200 EXC had one of those poxy catalytic converters that with time becomes a major exhaust blockage. In Europe they have a power limit for new motorcyclists, like in the UK:


After passing the standard motorcycle practical test, you will be restricted for two years to riding a bike of up to 25 kw and a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kw/kg. After this you may ride any size of bike.http://www.direct.gov.uk (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/RidingMotorcyclesAndMopeds/DG_4022568) 34ps or 160kW/t. Lots of bikes have a Europe-market 34ps learner version.

[cooneyr]

Have to agree with that, I would be reluctent to insure a rider on a learners licence who has just purchased a DRZ400 for example.
Be interesting to see how the insurance companies run with the new laws.

Here is a opportunity for an interesting debate - why do you think a learner on a DRZ400 or DR650 is a higher risk for an insurance company than a zzr250 or a prilla rs250?

I'd suggest the opposite in that cost risk of both third party and insured individual is less.

[Jantar]

Here is a opportunity for an interesting debate - why do you think a learner on a DRZ400 or DR650 is a higher risk for an insurance company than a zzr250 or a prilla rs250?

I'd suggest the opposite in that cost risk of both third party and insured individual is less.

Maybe that is the reason the Apriia RS250 is not on the LAMS approved list. Personally I believe it is marginal that the ZZR should be permitted either, but even with the 90 kg rider weight allowance it is close to the limit. My wife will shortly be riding as a learner and I'm leaning towards a DR650.

[SS90]

People are so nervous around this whole LAMS thing. So long as you don't wedge a motor twice the size of the original, or hang a super-charger off the side of your bike, who's going to know? You won't fail a WOF at a testing station based on the status of your drivers licence and Mr Plod isn't going to take your cylinder head off on the roadside. Avoid wanky stickers & fancy exhaust systems & you'll be sweet I reckon :niceone:

True, if only people woud heed this advise.
Truth be told, a loud exhaust/carb mods, if they are lucky, will gain a few % in peak power, but more often , nothing measureable in regards to peak power for the small stuff.

[Waipukbiker]

I presume the insurance companies will now be watching the statistics with the new laws as to the ratio of claims between diff models and sizes/power of bikes where learner licence riders are concerned but then nothing may change and it may all be a storm in a teacup as they say.
I have no idea how they expect the new laws to be effectivly policed, not sure if it could be picked up on if a learner licenced rider tried to
rego a bike that is non complient, cant remember if licence details are required on the forms or even change of ownership forms.
Even then it would require the person behind the counter to have the knowledge to determin what is compliant and what isnt. (Yeah right)

As usual, time will determin what becomes of it all. Prob nothing.

[ducatilover]

True, if only people woud heed this advise.
Truth be told, a loud exhaust/carb mods, if they are lucky, will gain a few % in peak power, but more often , nothing measureable in regards to peak power for the small stuff.

I can attest to this. My VT250 did 32whp in standard form, with lots of fucking around with tuning, I found my OEM filter to perform best and with a tuned length 'zorts, it finally got to 36whp.
Just making it louder however, it was still 32whp, with less torque :wacko: Nitro/meth in the tank soon sorted that. :yes:

[avgas]

I personally think the whole thing is a joke.
It doesn't fix any problem, it just creates more.

I would like to see learners (who have the shittiest test anyway) on sub 150cc motorcycles for 6 months. Lets let them crawl before they run.
Putting someone with fuck all torque steering experience on a 600cc machine regardless of how much hp it has is a recipe for disaster.
If morons can roll quad-bikes, you sure has hell can bet they can throw a 600 off a bank at 120kph.
Or wheelstand it into a car.
Or simple power slide it under a truck.

Actually the more I talk about I reckon we should give them LAMS approved bikes. Like dumping chlorine in the gene pool.

[ducatilover]

I personally think the whole thing is a joke.
It doesn't fix any problem, it just creates more.

I would like to see learners (who have the shittiest test anyway) on sub 150cc motorcycles for 6 months. Lets let them crawl before they run.
Putting someone with fuck all torque steering experience on a 600cc machine regardless of how much hp it has is a recipe for disaster.
If morons can roll quad-bikes, you sure has hell can bet they can throw a 600 off a bank at 120kph.
Or wheelstand it into a car.
Or simple power slide it under a truck.

Actually the more I talk about I reckon we should give them LAMS approved bikes. Like dumping chlorine in the gene pool.
Yeah, but they won't be fucking our nice two smokers up anymore! Sadly they'll be destroying the GB400s and other sexy machines

[NordieBoy]

Maybe that is the reason the Apriia RS250 is not on the LAMS approved list. Personally I believe it is marginal that the ZZR should be permitted either, but even with the 90 kg rider weight allowance it is close to the limit. My wife will shortly be riding as a learner and I'm leaning towards a DR650.

But an 18 y/o with a full licence on the Aprilia would be covered but on an old TT500, wouldn't.

[avgas]

Yeah, but they won't be fucking our nice two smokers up anymore! Sadly they'll be destroying the GB400s and other sexy machines
What new 2-strokes?
We have already lost that war.

[EJK]

Question:

Will LAMS affect 250cc market? I.E. Can I expect any price drops for 250cc bikes?

[avgas]

Question:

Will LAMS affect 250cc market? I.E. Can I expect any price drops for 250cc bikes?
Yes.
They will now sell for what they are worth.

[JimmyC]

I personally think the whole thing is a joke.
It doesn't fix any problem, it just creates more.

I would like to see learners (who have the shittiest test anyway) on sub 150cc motorcycles for 6 months. Lets let them crawl before they run.
Putting someone with fuck all torque steering experience on a 600cc machine regardless of how much hp it has is a recipe for disaster.
If morons can roll quad-bikes, you sure has hell can bet they can throw a 600 off a bank at 120kph.
Or wheelstand it into a car.
Or simple power slide it under a truck.

Actually the more I talk about I reckon we should give them LAMS approved bikes. Like dumping chlorine in the gene pool.

Howdy all, long time stalker, first time poster… Thought this might be an appropriate thread to join in the fray since I’ve been hoping the LAMS would be introduced here for quite some time. I used to ride a lot when I was younger, and recently got in a 3 day ride at the start of the year which sparked my enthusiasm back up again. Up until now however it had all been unlicensed riding, farms, trails etc, but with the LAMS coming online I decided to finally get my license. If I’d had to get a 250 for 12 months then trade up, I wouldn’t have bothered. None of them interested me, and none were a great fit.

You’re absolutely right, the BHS test by its very definition is basic, too basic, and really needs to change. It’s not even on par with getting a car license. Nothing about it prepares you for riding on the road with other traffic since none of it takes place on a real road. On the BHS course I did back in March we had a guy who was continually stalling and nearly dropped his bike several times (all of a GN125 I should add). He was pretty useless to be frank, but then he’s not the type to be trying wheelies, power slides or the like on any sized bike. That’s likely to be the kid who aces the test first time and thinks every license should come with a free Ninja 250 just for the inconvenience the process has caused him, but there’s no test for a riders mind set.

I’ve been waiting some 20 years to get my license. Perhaps it’s a mid-life crisis, but I know my limitations and respect other motorists. That’s also something that’s impossible to teach. So yeah, there’ll be guys and gals wiping themselves out on bigger bikes come Oct 1st, but I don’t think it’ll be happening in larger numbers. It’ll just happen more spectacularly.

[avgas]

Welcome to the fold Mr C.
Yep, I agree with you about everything except.......


He was pretty useless to be frank, but then he’s not the type to be trying wheelies, power slides or the like on any sized bike. That’s likely to be the kid who aces the test first time and thinks every license should come with a free Ninja 250 just for the inconvenience the process has caused him, but there’s no test for a riders mind set.

You will be surprised how quickly a bike will put you on your arse. I have had a TS185 throw me off the back as I hit a tiny rock (and then bumped the throttle in first). Likewise I have had the "rear disappear" at 20kph on a GB400.
Not to mention the 1000's of Triumphs I have seen on Trademe with the story of some nice old chap accidentally "lowsiding it".
This does not take a mindset - more a lack of one.

The young have the advantage that they can place blame on inexperience, after all they are the young and stupid. Where as the old..........should probably know better.
Good luck on your motorcycle journeys and most of all welcome to KB.
But remember the laws of physics escape no one.
Time you falls wisely.

[ducatilover]

Yes.
They will now sell for what they are worth.

Mint, I'm buying me some 4 cyl 250s when it happens, they're cute.

[JimmyC]

Welcome to the fold Mr C.
Yep, I agree with you about everything except.......

You will be surprised how quickly a bike will put you on your arse.

I think we're on the same page here actually, 'cos I'm not surprised at all. Things happen very quickly on motorbikes, not just speeding tickets, but this gets compounded when weight, power and inexperience are combined.


This does not take a mindset - more a lack of one.

Semantics aside that's precisely what I'm saying. Perhaps I didn't phrase myself properly, but yeah, totally agree.


Good luck on your motorcycle journeys and most of all welcome to KB.

Thanks very much. Looking forward to spending some time here.

[Lula]

Just a heads up Motorcycle Trader magazine will be featuring LAMS in the October issue (on sale 1st October). It'll be a complete guide to all the learner approved motorcycles under the new LAMS scheme plus in depth test and reviews on some of them.

Also featured will be Financing your Ride - what to look for when considering finance.

[clint640]

Good to see that the KTM LC4 625/640/690's are among the few single cylinder adv bikes that are not sufficiently porky &/or underpowered to be classified as learner friendly :sunny: The happy feeling of badassedness is not outweighing the pain of the extra rego fee but.

If I was a learner today I think the Husaberg FE/FS 570 may just edge out the KTM 300 as offering the max possible madness on an L plate though. :woohoo:

Cheers
Clint

[Rosie]

Good to see that the KTM LC4 625/640/690's are among the few single cylinder adv bikes that are not sufficiently porky &/or underpowered to be classified as learner friendly :sunny: The happy feeling of badassedness is not outweighing the pain of the extra rego fee but.

If I was a learner today I think the Husaberg FE/FS 570 may just edge out the KTM 300 as offering the max possible madness on an L plate though. :woohoo:

Cheers
Clint

That sounds like a commercial for some dodgy Chinese commuter bike "The Happy Feeling of Badassedness" :laugh:

[FJRider]

That sounds like a commercial for some dodgy Chinese commuter bike "The Happy Feeling of Badassedness" :laugh:

Would be funnier if you could think of a possible poor ... chinese to english translation. (eg: joyful touching of naughty bottoms)

[NordieBoy]

Good to see that the KTM LC4 625/640/690's are among the few single cylinder adv bikes that are not sufficiently porky &/or underpowered to be classified as learner friendly :sunny: The happy feeling of badassedness is not outweighing the pain of the extra rego fee but.

If I was a learner today I think the Husaberg FE/FS 570 may just edge out the KTM 300 as offering the max possible madness on an L plate though. :woohoo:

Cheers
Clint

Even the Nordie 558cc is LAMS safe (not approved though). It gets in by the virtue of being fat.
45hp at the rear wheel though...

[ducatilover]

Would be funnier if you could think of a possible poor ... chinese to english translation. (eg: joyful touching of naughty bottoms)

The white turtle of the sauna waves to his KTM donning compadre?

[clint640]

Even the Nordie 558cc is LAMS safe (not approved though). It gets in by the virtue of being fat.
45hp at the rear wheel though...

So can you apply to have it put on the list so you get cheaper rego?

Clint

[Woodman]

Just read this and did the power to weight calculations for my KLR. The gummint actually owe me a credit.

[Eddieb]

Just read this and did the power to weight calculations for my KLR. The gummint actually owe me a credit.

I've not read anything to indicate there's any link between a bike being LAMS approved and it being eligible for cheaper rego. The 600cc cut off still applies.

[clint640]

I've not read anything to indicate there's any link between a bike being LAMS approved and it being eligible for cheaper rego. The 600cc cut off still applies.

I thought I read somewhere that LAMS approved bikes would get the under 600 rego charge but I can't remember where, could be wrong.

If not that does mean that a DR650 can simultaneously be a fire-breathing overpowered deathcycle & a nice friendly learner scooter? Gives new meaning to dual purpose. :rolleyes:

Clint

[Eddieb]

I thought I read somewhere that LAMS approved bikes would get the under 600 rego charge but I can't remember where, could be wrong.

If not that does mean that a DR650 can simultaneously be a fire-breathing overpowered deathcycle & a nice friendly learner scooter? Gives new meaning to dual purpose. :rolleyes:

Clint

I'm happy to be corrected but I've been through all the NZTA stuff specifically about LAMS and read the overview doc for the law Change that covers Lams and a whole pile of car and truck stuff thats in the same bill and can't find any reference to rego costs changing.

You haven't ridden my fire-breathing overpowered deathcycle, it's a little more fire-breathing and stable than most DR's.

[oneofsix]

I'm happy to be corrected but I've been through all the NZTA stuff specifically about LAMS and read the overview doc for the law Change that covers Lams and a whole pile of car and truck stuff thats in the same bill and can't find any reference to rego costs changing.

You haven't ridden my fire-breathing overpowered deathcycle, it's a little more fire-breathing and stable than most DR's.

The portion of the rego cost based on cc rating of the bike is the ACC levy so that would be an ACC document I would have thought. You may see that change when they review the ACC levies however they might just decide that 6Ls on large bikes are still the same risk given the original levies weren't based on fact.

[tigertim20]

I thought I read somewhere that LAMS approved bikes would get the under 600 rego charge but I can't remember where, could be wrong.



Clint

where you read that was probably some conjecture on here. I dont see it happening.
the LAMS is a licencing issue, the rego cost is an ACC issue. to my knowledge there has been zero discussion between the two agencies regarding the LAMS stuff

[Rosie]

You haven't ridden my fire-breathing overpowered deathcycle, it's a little more fire-breathing and stable than most DR's.

But it still doesn't have enough badassedness to make it unsuitable for learners? :mellow:

[Eddieb]

But it still doesn't have enough badassedness to make it unsuitable for learners? :mellow:

I don't know how much power it produces in it's current incarnation of awesomeness so I haven't done the calculations but it goes a lot betterer than a stock one.

[NordieBoy]

So can you apply to have it put on the list so you get cheaper rego?

Clint

It's 558cc so already is cheaper than the DR.

[JATZ]

that a DR650 can simultaneously be a fire-breathing overpowered deathcycle & a nice friendly learner scooter? Gives new meaning to dual purpose. :rolleyes:

Clint

That's the funniest thing I've read on k.b. in a while..... DR death cycle :rofl: :rofl:
Mind you, the klr threads been a bit quiet lately, thats usually good for a laugh :D: