Those effing offset cones

[aimee]

Hello all

So, learning to ride a motorcycle is a little trickier than I had thought (it must be my advanced age, heh).

Primarily, I'm having problems with the offset cones bit of the Basic Handling Skills. You know, where one has a range of cones which are quite close together, and one has to weave through them at low speeds?

What strategies have you found worked for getting around them successfully? How did you learn to do them?

I'm hoping the answers will be useful not only for me, but for other n00bs too, so please go into detail where you can :P

[oneofsix]

This seems flippant but without details on your issue I feel the reply should be counter steering.

[Maha]

Use your head...by that I mean....by turning your head the way you want/need the bike to go, it will help correct the wrong doing.
Learners and newbies alike, should exaggerate this method through every corner/bend...soon enough, it will become second nature and the effects will be noticed rather quickly.
You will be amazed at how smooth you and your bike can actually go through a corner.
Counter steering (I personally believe) happens naturally when leaning/looking through the corner/bend.
Its called Geometry.

[aimee]

This seems flippant but without details on your issue I feel the reply should be counter steering.

Thanks, oneofsix. I didn't go into too much detail as I thought it might be useful for people to offer a range of advice, so that the thread is then useful to people with a range of cone-related issues :)

Could you go into a bit more detail, please? My understanding of countersteering is that it doesn't really work with very tight cornering at very low speeds, which is what the offset cones in the BHS test are all about.

[oneofsix]

Thanks, oneofsix. I didn't go into too much detail as I thought it might be useful for people to offer a range of advice, so that the thread is then useful to people with a range of cone-related issues :)

Could you go into a bit more detail, please? My understanding of countersteering is that it doesn't really work with very tight cornering at very low speeds, which is what the offset cones in the BHS test are all about.

I can understand why you would get that impression but really counter-steering will lean the bike in at any speed. I too have trouble at low speed where it would seem more 'normal' to steer through the corner. Also dragging the rear brake will pull you into the corner. One of the hard things is not to panic as the bike leans and don't grab too much throttle on the exit.

I know some people have posted blogs on this sort of stuff whereas I am working from memory of my own BHS days, when the cones were T-Rex legs :laugh: and a basic ACC course I did last year.

Did you take one of the BHS training courses or are you self training?

When you get your 6L keep an eye out for the Wellington slow paced rides which have been aimed at the novice rider to gain some road experienced.

[bogan]

Start on a pushbike?

[Gremlin]

Yeah, if the cones are tight, then it's likely counter steering won't be useful, given that it comes into effect around 30-40kph.

Essentially, you need practise on the core skills (and what the BHS is). Riding in a straight line at walking speed or less, learning to control and balance the bike at low speeds. The skills also stay with you and are useful in every day riding.

Do remember that you go where you look, so don't look at the cone, look at where you want to be. If doing a tight u-turn, head up, looking through the turn.

[george formby]

Sounds like you should talk to my girlfriend... She has just got on the road & we ride cones a lot.

Slow, tight turns require you to keep the engine revs up but at the same time control the speed of the bike. You can keep the revs up by slipping the clutch a little, a better way is to use the rear brake. A little braking will keep the bike at a constant speed or slow the acceleration but with enough revs to avoid stalling. Initially it may be easier to use the clutch & rear brake when you practice until you develop the feel for it. Through your series of turns you can ride at fairly constant revs, increasing rear brake pressure to help you turn- the bike will start to tip as you slow- releasing brake pressure to allow the bike to accelerate & stand up out of the turn. You can still roll on & off the throttle but you need to stop the bike from stalling.
As mentioned, look where you want to go, not just your eyes, your whole head. The moment you look into the turn the bike will start too turn.
Do not look at the front wheel, keep your head up.
Practice the rear brake & clutch control in a straight line. Adjust your speed using the rear brake to get a feel for it. Same as the slow ride in the test.
Stay relaxed in the turn, let your hips move around. At slow speeds counter steering loses it effect but weighting the inside footrest can help turn the bike too, inside footrest to enter the turn, outside footrest to stand it up again. You can combine this with your head turn & moving left or right slightly in the seat, hence the loose hips
Think where you want to be in the slalom, you need to make each turn the same & control your speed so that you do not end up running out of space or going to slowly.
Cut some tennis balls in half & go find an empty car park to practice in.

[Banditbandit]

Hi Amiee

The biggest hint I can give you for riding the tight cones slowly is to lean out - push the bike down to corner but lean your body slightly the other way - this will make the bike turn tighter around slow corners. (The angle of the bike plus the angle the other way of your body will equal the angle of a normal lean, but the bike will turn easily ...)

Practice this at lower speeds around a carpark where there are no cones ... once you get the hang of it have a go at the cones.

This is a bit like an extreme version of counter-steering in that you are pushing down on the handlebars to make the bike lean ...

[Maha]

Chicks dig corners....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lSz2edKnu78" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[george formby]

Hi Amiee

The biggest hint I can give you for riding the tight cones slowly is to lean out - push the bike down to corner but lean your body slightly the other way - this will make the bike turn tighter around slow corners. (The angle of the bike plus gthe anglethe other way of your body will equal the angle of a normal lean, but the bike will turn easily ...

Practice this at lower speeds around a carpark where there are no cones ... once you get the hang of it have a go at the cones.

This is a bit like an extreme version of counter-steering in that you are pushing down on the handlebars to make the bike lean ...

T'is true, you push the bike down wit yer hips to increase the lean. Be aware of how the dynamics between you & the handle bars change as you lean further out. Leaning out acts as a counterbalance to the bike & it feels very stable. You must be nice & relaxed to do it smoothly.

[george formby]

Chicks dig corners....



Oh, thank you. That was very, um, hard to concentrate on. What was she talking about?

[rastuscat]

Hi Amiee

The biggest hint I can give you for riding the tight cones slowly is to lean out - push the bike down to corner but lean your body slightly the other way - this will make the bike turn tighter around slow corners. (The angle of the bike plus gthe anglethe other way of your body will equal the angle of a normal lean, but the bike will turn easily ...

Practice this at lower speeds around a carpark where there are no cones ... once you get the hang of it have a go at the cones.

This is a bit like an extreme version of counter-steering in that you are pushing down on the handlebars to make the bike lean ...

Press your inside knee hard against the bike, and it will tend to follow the opposite direction from which your knee is pressing. Its surprising how much your weight can control the bike. Try this.......ride along slowly while standing up, then lift one foot. The bike will react quite strongly, demonstrating how much effect your body position can have.

Dip the bike. Trail the rear brake, and remember to keep your head up. Remember to keep the revs up, coz nothing lies a bike down quite as well as a stalled motor.

DONT LOOK DOWN AT WHERE YOUR FRONT WHEEL IS.............keep your head up, and turned toward where you want to go.

We do this when we are doing our Popo motorcycle rodeo training. It sorts the men out from the boys. Anyone can point a bike in a straight line and do 200kmh/, it takes skill to do cone work at slow speed.

We do full lock figure eights on our heffer-lump troll bikes, coz each end of the figure eight reminds us of donuts.

[george formby]

While you are doing this, imagine your bike is a horse. Press your outside knee hard against the bike, and it will tend to follow the direction your knee is pressing.

Dip the bike. Trail the rear brake, and remember to keep your head up. Remember to keep the revs up, coz nothing lies a bike down quite as well as a stalled motor.

DONT LOOK DOWN AT WHERE YOUR FRONT WHEEL IS.............keep your head up, and turned toward where you want to go.

We do this when we are doing our Popo motorcycle rodeo training. It sorts the men out from the boys. Anyone can point a bike in a straight line and do 200kmh/, it takes skill to do cone work at slow speed.

We can do full lock figure eights, coz each end of the figure eight reminds us of donuts.:laugh:

Strawberry cones with sprinkles?

Yer right about slow speed training, bloody hard work for something which is so slow.

[rastuscat]

:laugh:

Strawberry cones with sprinkles?

Yer right about slow speed training, bloody hard work for something which is so slow.

It toasts ya coz it's physically hard, but doing days of it on end is mentally draining. The concentration required is a bastard. Makes ya wanna drink beer.

Doh !!

[Lozza2442]

Chicks dig corners....


... Wha...? Did someone say something? I was distracted.


By those shoes.
I'd like to see her ride in those shoes.

[Gremlin]

Just to add, the bike itself does play a big part. Not so much for the BHS, but familiarity with the bike, how the bike feels under you etc.

On my Hornet CB900, I can do lock to lock turns one after another at variable speeds. However, I ride it every day in and around the city, it's very smooth and I know it well. On my bigger GSA, the steering lock is very sharp, so full lock turns are more tricky, more weight is higher and the drive train has more slack in it...

[Lozza2442]

LOL I just watched that video with sound...

"Don't look left" *shows example by looking right*

She's a winner. :laugh:

[Asher]

i guess it depends slightly one what your having trouble with but when i did my bht the instructor said to always look at the next cone and not the one your riding around as it helps to keep your head up and improve your balance.
Also when i did it i hardly used the brakes or throttle and instead just idled through them and just used the clutch to adjust my speed.

[george formby]

i guess it depends slightly one what your having trouble with but when i did my bht the instructor said to always look at the next cone and not the one your riding around as it helps to keep your head up and improve your balance.
Also when i did it i hardly used the brakes or throttle and instead just idled through them and just used the clutch to adjust my speed.

If yer gonna do some practice & can get a volunteer to help, set your slalom up quite narrow (easy) & as your confidence builds get the volunteer to start moving the odd ball out a bit wider when your not looking. This really helps in making you look ahead & is often the cause of swearing.

[sinfull]

Hello all

So, learning to ride a motorcycle is a little trickier than I had thought (it must be my advanced age, heh).

Primarily, I'm having problems with the offset cones bit of the Basic Handling Skills. You know, where one has a range of cones which are quite close together, and one has to weave through them at low speeds?

What strategies have you found worked for getting around them successfully? How did you learn to do them?

I'm hoping the answers will be useful not only for me, but for other n00bs too, so please go into detail where you can :P
I take it you are practicing prior to doing your BHS ?

If so,

These cones will be set up in a large area (such as a school netball court etc) offset and you have to go through them against the grain so to speak, in other words near impossible even for an experienced rider to just weave through, staying close to the cones yeah ?

So Use the whole netball court to do an arc before going through the next cone, ie a 20 ft arc !

Your welcome !

[sinfull]

This seems flippant but without details on your issue I feel the reply should be counter steering.
Bro you're telling someone who has not even begun to learn basic skills to think counter steering ? I know riders that have been on the road 40 years, who didn't even know they were counter steering the whole time and it blew them away when they were shown that they were in fact pushing the bars the wrong way (subjectively) to corner !

Science like that will just confuse a learner in my book !

[george formby]

I take it you are practicing prior to doing your BHS ?

If so,

These cones will be set up in a large area (such as a school netball court etc) offset and you have to go through them against the grain so to speak, in other words near impossible even for an experienced rider to just weave through, staying close to the cones yeah ?

So Use the whole netball court to do an arc before going through the next cone, ie a 20 ft arc !

Your welcome !

Doh! start at the beginning. +1, yup, use all your space.

[oneofsix]

Bro you're telling someone who has not even begun to learn basic skills to think counter steering ? I know riders that have been on the road 40 years, who didn't even know they were counter steering the whole time and it blew them away when they were shown that they were in fact pushing the bars the wrong way (subjectively) to corner !

Science like that will just confuse a learner in my book !

If you do the BHS training and the trainer is any good the first thing they tell you is to counter steer. Also she appeared to understand the concept just not that it still worked at low speeds.

[tbs]

The trick that my instructor taught me was to look at a point 20 meters ahead of the centre line of the cones and rely on my peripheral vision. It's quite counter-intuitive at first, but it really helps. You really have to turn the bars quite a long way to get around the cones and it feels weird, and unbalances your upper body. Focusing down the road and keeping your head up will help stabilize your body which in turn will stabilize the bike. It is then easier to work on your throttle control.

If you don't have a bike yet, then either use a push bike or just walk it with your arms out pretending to steer, (bbrrmm bbrrmm noises optional) concentrating on exagerated steering movements and keeping your head up learning to trust your peripheral vision. Do this for the turning exercises too. Enter the corner, turn your head 90 degrees and allow the bike to turn. A year or so ago I saw a teenage girl wobbling around on a push bike at the end of my street with her friend walking beside her ready to catch her. Turned out she was in the school cycling team, which mean't clip in pedals, but she couldn't do a tight turn on the pushbike so she was too afraid to clip in. She was staring at the ground right in front of her. I gave her the same advice. Keep your head up and turn to look where you want to go. In your case, with the slalom you actually want to go to the other end, so look there.

It may feel a bit lame doing it without a bike, but going over something in your mind first helps a lot.

[sinfull]

it still worked at low speeds.

Id be prepared to put money on that !

Be fun watching you ride around a car park at 15 k with just your left hand flat on the bar fingers outstretched, no leaning (cheating in other words) and make that bike of yours turn left !

[anebv8]

I done mine on a GN 125 and just turned the idling up a touch, a mate used my bike to do it on and turned the choke up a bit. that way ya just have to hold on and not worry about the throttle. Then kept my eyes on the end cone

[george formby]

I done mine on a GN 125 and just turned the idling up a touch, a mate used my bike to do it on and turned the choke up a bit. that way ya just have to hold on and not worry about the throttle. Then kept my eyes on the end cone

I did that on the G/F's bike initially, no substitute for throttle control, though. It's an aid not a fix but helpful in getting rolling. Good tip.

[rustic101]

No two rider techniques or bikes are the same. Each have their own idiosyncrasies.

My advice, is:

Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice.

and when your done; Practice some more....

You want to get to a stage when your on the other side and say 'didn't even have to think about how to do that'.

[george formby]

No two rider techniques or bikes are the same. Each have their own idiosyncrasies.

My advice, is:

Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice.

and when your done; Practice some more....

You want to get to a stage when your on the other side and say 'didn't even have to think about how to do that'.

+1 cha cha cha.

[nodrog]

Replace the cones with babies.

[george formby]

Replace the cones with babies.

Puppies & kittens are cheaper.:2thumbsup

[Headbanger]

My advice, is:

Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice.

and when your done; Practice some more....

You want to get to a stage when your on the other side and say 'didn't even have to think about how to do that'.

This.

Everything else is just fluff, practise it untill the connections are made in your brain at a level lower then your conscious thought. Then rather then thinking about how to do it, it will instead be a natural action.

If after shitloads of practise you still can't do it, Then stay off my road.

I find it difficult to fathom anyone having trouble riding around cones, But Im an asshole like that.

[Headbanger]

Puppies & kittens are cheaper.:2thumbsup

They move to fast, These are learners after all.

[nodrog]

Puppies & kittens are cheaper.:2thumbsup

Doubt it, you have to buy food for those things, babies just live off tit juice.

[DMNTD]

Chicks dig corners....

Was waiting for her to get her knees down :baby:

[Maha]

Was waiting for her to get her knees down :baby:

Takes more than tits and short shorts to make that happen. :cool:

[wingnutt]

1. use the friction zone on the clutch ( this is where the clutch just starts to bite, and bike begins to move) takes practice to get this right.

2. use the back brake only to control your speed, hold a wee bit of throttle, where the bike is moving in the friction zone.

3. at the start, look to cone about 1/2 way down the course, keep looking at it, until you reach it, and then look ahead the same amount.

4. counter steer will not work at under about 20kph, so you will need to steer the bike, keep you back straight, steer into the space, and let you weight naturally move away from the turn (contary to leaning into a curve above about 20kph where countersteering kicks in.

5. this will not work on all bikes but might be worth a go, instead of friction zone, use 3rd gear, no throttle, and back brake only, if it works the bike will not stall while moving.

6. do a search for ride like a pro on you tube.

6a in tight turning look to where you want to go, if its a tight circle, pick a centre point in the middle of the circle, and keep your eyes there.

7. practice practice practice.

8. at your own risk be it.

[Fast Eddie]

...so that the thread is then useful to people with a range of cone-related issues.

I got some cone related issues.. mines blocked up. how do I fix it?

[HenryDorsetCase]

LOL I just watched that video with sound...

"Don't look left" *shows example by looking right*

She's a winner. :laugh:

well, not to pick holes or anything, but she is demonstrating (in the loosest sense of the word) motorcycle cornerning wearing stilettos, a bikini top and shorty short shorts.

What she was saying actually made sense once I stopped looking at her legs and boobies and whatnot.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Was waiting for her to get her knees down :baby:

or, you know, up.

[DMNTD]

Takes more than tits and short shorts to make that happen. :cool:

Maybe you're using the wrong bait sir?

[jellywrestler]

well, not to pick holes or anything, but she is demonstrating (in the loosest sense of the word) motorcycle cornerning wearing stilettos, a bikini top and shorty short shorts.

What she was saying actually made sense once I stopped looking at her legs and boobies and whatnot. really, even the bit about putting the tips of your toes on the pegs so every time you want to change gear you have to move your whole foot???? and the same with the brake...

[aderino4]

Don't even try doing it on Sportsbike.

Did mine many years ago; roll into the test area on 89CBR250R. Instruction said to me, "I've never had anyone pass the cone test on sports bike"
Being young and bullet proof, I challenged him.

Tried it 3 - 4 times; I got half way and fail.

So I borrowed his GN125; pass in 1st go.

If I remember correctly; I did it on 2nd gear, clutch fully out and control the speed using the rear brake. Throttle is pretty much shut the whole way
Then ride it like you ride a bicycle, i.e. turn the handle bar; don't even think about counter steering or leaning.

[hippie]

I Sat my BHT a few weeks ago and the cones were the one thing sthat got me throughly unstuck and worried i might never master the skill.

Eventually i got it after so many half attempts etc etc I personally looked towards the distance and saw the cones in my pheriphial vision (how ever that is spelt.) An i followed a rhythm in my head relax relax turn relax relax turn relax relax turn actually relaxing and having a rhythm made all the difference it also took my mind off fighting the bike and moving with it naturally. Just incase this may help anybody.

[george formby]

Don't even try doing it on Sportsbike.

Did mine many years ago; roll into the test area on 89CBR250R. Instruction said to me, "I've never had anyone pass the cone test on sports bike"
Being young and bullet proof, I challenged him.

Tried it 3 - 4 times; I got half way and fail.

So I borrowed his GN125; pass in 1st go.

If I remember correctly; I did it on 2nd gear, clutch fully out and control the speed using the rear brake. Throttle is pretty much shut the whole way
Then ride it like you ride a bicycle, i.e. turn the handle bar; don't even think about counter steering or leaning.

I sat my test on a trail bike & the examiner said the same thing, couldn't do it, bike to big. Did it (obviously) just, took a bit of trialsing. My GF had a little difficulty too, on a DT Lanza, the cones being set up on a 3 inch layer of gravel did not help her nerves.


Slow speed control is about getting the technique right, clutch, throttle & rear brake then parctice, practice, practice. Just in case i haven't already said that.:laugh:

[smh]

How far apart the cones set?

[george formby]

How far apart the cones set?

3.5 mtrs apart, .5 mtr off set allegedly.

[wysper]

do you have to stay close to the cones or can you piss of miles to the sides and come back again?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I had the bike at work last night and did some practice feet up slow speed full lock turns and then figure 8's. twas good fun.

[george formby]

do you have to stay close to the cones or can you piss of miles to the sides and come back again?

When I sat my test you started the bike by pedalling...... I believe you can use all the space you have available. Somebody mentioned that back in the thread.

[Drew]

Some arsehole always has to bring up counter steering aye. This is done automatically, do not try and think about it.

[george formby]

I had the bike at work last night and did some practice feet up slow speed full lock turns and then figure 8's. twas good fun.


Like this?


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UPNxgRULJiA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I'm out practicing gymkhana stuff as often as I can. I just need to scrub 17 seconds off my time to be competitive.... Easy!

[aimee]

I got them right on my second lesson, which was great - huzzah having a learner's!

Thanks for all the advice. Something which I got told about which really helped was to make use of the back brake when doing 'em - the compression of the rear suspension really helped pivot around the cones.

Funnily enough, I'm pretty good at the slow stuff (over 14 seconds for the slow straight, for example!), but yeah - glad I got the cones right!

Now spend just about every good day riding around the bays during lunch :)