Commodity ownership?

[Maha]

Its my view that, to legally own something, first you have to pay (or have paid) for it.
Can I suggest that the NZ Government decide what water is worth and then offer it to all Iwi for that price.
Maori did not have ownership of water in 1840/1953 or even 2007...they seem to have stated ownership in the last three months, but thats laughable at best.
Its a commodity that belongs to (not owned by) all that live here.

[MisterD]

I don't neccessarily agree that you have to pay for something to own it, but asserting ownership of water is stupid.

If you leave water alone, it will evaporate or run away and all that can be asserted is that you can have the right to use it before it does disappear, or the right to charge someone money to provide the service of moving it to somewhere they can use it instead.

It gets even more stupid with "wind", I'll pay any Maori $100 for the first container full of "wind" (not air, wind) they can bring me...and no, Hone Harawira doesn't count :laugh:

[MSTRS]

Water is owned by all. Or none.
If Maori can stop the (power generating) asset sales with their water rights claims, then good. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple and won't end there.
That fucking Hobson has a lot to answer for...

[bogan]

Bring in Death Duties, apply retroactively to any new treaty claims. Yes sir, you now own the water, however after all the death duties it may not be as much as you think, did you bring a bucket?

[oneofsix]

Water is owned by all. Or none.
If Maori can stop the (power generating) asset sales with their water rights claims, then good. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple and won't end there.
That fucking Hobson has a lot to answer for...

Hobson's choice.

If the government hadn't put it up for sale the Maori wouldn't have claimed it. <_<

[Kiwi Graham]

I want it settled and soon, Ive got too much water on my land, some of it is like a bog.
If Maori win I'll get them to come and pick the excess up <_<
If mighty power win I'll sell the excess to them :laugh:

[The End]

"So Maori have always owned water?
Does this mean those that have lost houses etc due to floods can now sue for damages since they (Maori) did not control their rivers?
If someone drowned should Maori be held accountable as they did not have lifeguards along the river. Local swimming pools need lifeguards."

Not my post, but found it funny nonetheless.

[avgas]

Its very clear my wife owns the water. She has bought bottles of the stuff for years. Clearly this was wise investing on her behalf so I am just wondering when we get paid the dividends?

[Stirts]

It gets even more stupid with "wind", I'll pay any Maori $100 for the first container full of "wind" (not air, wind) they can bring me...and no, Hone Harawira doesn't count :laugh:

And would you get paid for any farts that you generate?

[Drew]

Water is owned by all. Or none.
If Maori can stop the (power generating) asset sales with their water rights claims, then good. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple and won't end there.
That fucking Hobson has a lot to answer for...Interesting point of view. Do we own something, that we had to borrow to pay for? Not any more than someone owns the fuckin water in my opinion. All we'd be doing is dropping a debt!


Hobson's choice.

If the government hadn't put it up for sale the Maori wouldn't have claimed it. <_<They are not selling water, they are selling the power generation units sitting in the water.

The maori no more have rights to the waters use, or it's flow than fly to the moon backwards! All they are doing is segragating this country further than it already is. Us and them, it's fuckin bulshit, and when one of the cunts in the maori party realise it we'll all be better off.

[Maha]

Interesting point of view. Do we own something, that we had to borrow to pay for? Not any more than someone owns the fuckin water in my opinion. All we'd be doing is dropping a debt!

They are not selling water, they are selling the power generation units sitting in the water.

The maori no more have rights to the waters use, or it's flow than fly to the moon backwards! All they are doing is segragating this country further than it already is. Us and them, it's fuckin bulshit, and when one of the cunts in the maori party realise it we'll all be better off.

Fuck don't mention the moon, or the stars for that matter, they were used to guide the waka...they were using the GPS way before it was invented.

[awa355]

The planet is estimated to be around 4 billion years old. Soil, Water, wind, Gases etc have been a basic element in the creation of earth as it is today, for most of that 4 billion years.

The Maori have been here for around 800 years. Go figure :cry:

[bungbung]

But the human body is 70% water (unless you're a fatty)

[Winston001]

C'mon guys, we've been over this before. Maori are not asserting they "own" any water.

What they are saying is they have "rights" to certain rivers and bodies of water, rights which stem from use of those places over hundreds of years. Rights which they claim are protected under the Treaty of Waitangi.

You and I do not have to agree with that. The Waitangi Tribunal does not have to agree. But we live in an open democracy and Maori are entitled to ask the question.

As for water "rights" - that is also a pakeha concept. There are water rights held by farmers, councils, businesses and individuals all over NZ. We can hardly complain that Maori want to join the party.

[aprilia_RS250]

C'mon guys, we've been over this before. Maori are not asserting they "own" any water.


You are wrong

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833926

They're just greedy fuckwits like the rest of us. I think issue would resolve it's self very quickly if most New Zealanders suddenly pronounced themselves as "Maori".

[huff3r]

Fuck don't mention the moon, or the stars for that matter, they were used to guide the waka...they were using the GPS way before it was invented.

Wait... Maori own GPS now too? :gob:

[Road kill]

"So Maori have always owned water?
Does this mean those that have lost houses etc due to floods can now sue for damages since they (Maori) did not control their rivers?
If someone drowned should Maori be held accountable as they did not have lifeguards along the river. Local swimming pools need lifeguards."

Not my post, but found it funny nonetheless.

Get real mate,,ACC looks after that shit really well already.<_<

[FJRider]

As I understood .... customary rights were for "the gathering of" (fish/sea-food etc.) or in this case ... "the use of" the rivers .... rivers/lakes being the easiest way to travel. (until the white fellas built roads)

The Water rights that goverment issue with the partial share of the SOE's ... are only the right to use (for specified length of time and then have to be renewed) the resource ... not ownership.

[short-circuit]

Its my view that, to legally own something, first you have to pay (or have paid) for it.
Can I suggest that the NZ Government decide what water is worth and then offer it to all Iwi for that price.
Maori did not have ownership of water in 1840/1953 or even 2007...they seem to have stated ownership in the last three months, but thats laughable at best.
Its a commodity that belongs to (not owned by) all that live here.

Yes but is hasn't always been a commodity to be "sold" or "owned". It was once a resource that was shared.

To some, commodifying it is an outrage - a ridiculous scam.

[phill-k]

Very shortly if Key has his way the Chinese will profit from our water for free

[Road kill]

Seems great leader has said,,"Get fucked" anyway.

Which I find kind of amusing.

Some times "get fucked" is not such a bad thing.

I have a book written by Samual Marsden.

It's called brave heart in Maori land,and in it there's an interesting statement.

"Give a Maori chief a nail,the next day he will be back for your hammer".

Just because I don't like Murray jokes and bite like a snapper at a pillie.

It doesn't mean I don't understand,,,"Get Fucked":laugh:

[FJRider]

"So Maori have always owned water?
Does this mean those that have lost houses etc due to floods can now sue for damages since they (Maori) did not control their rivers?
If someone drowned should Maori be held accountable as they did not have lifeguards along the river. Local swimming pools need lifeguards."

Not my post, but found it funny nonetheless.

As I recall ... those Maori held the Goverment accountable for the damage those floods did ... as the Goverment owned the power stations ..... that controlled the water. And were happy to accept payment by the goverment for the damage done by the water.

How could that be if Maori owned the water in the first place ... ???

[caseye]

It would seem the NZ's Maori King wants a fight.
I hope he's prepared for what comes next.
Key has already signaled that govt are going to ignore their claim.This time don't back down JK.

[mashman]

Ooowaaa waaaaa waaaa the brown people are wanting a share of the proceeds, ooowaaaa ooowaaaaaa... and the white folk want to buy shares of the SOE's so that they too can share in the proceeds, ooowaaaa ooowaaaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUfU1arc0Es brown you people who are allowed to get what the white people have to wait and then pay for :killingme

[FJRider]

It would seem the NZ's Maori King wants a fight.
I hope he's prepared for what comes next.
Key has already signaled that govt are going to ignore their claim.This time don't back down JK.

But who get's the bill for the Hui ... ???

[caseye]

Um, let me see, I know this one. Oh yes, the Maori owners of the lake and river beds.
S'theres innit?

[Maha]

Um, let me see, I know this one. Oh yes, the Maori owners of the lake and river beds.
S'theres innit?

The have rights to the Green Lake in Rotorua (massive trout I understand)...its Tapu to honky....:yes:

[FJRider]

The have rights to the Green Lake in Rotorua (massive trout I understand)...its Tapu to honky....:yes:

Is it ... ??? I fished there a few times ... :innocent:

[Maha]

Is it ... ??? I fished there a few times ... :innocent:

A mate of mine years ago won the weekly biggest fish prize...he told the local rag he caught it at Tarawera...thruth was, he fished from his car sunroof under the cover of darkness at the green lake...:confused:

[FJRider]

The have rights to the Green Lake in Rotorua (massive trout I understand)...its Tapu to honky....:yes:

It's just as well I've seen myself as a bit dark ... :shutup:

[R6_kid]

I own gravity. Pay up now or I else I'm turning yours off.

[Road kill]

The have rights to the Green Lake in Rotorua (massive trout I understand)...its Tapu to honky....:yes:

Tapu to honky:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh:

So you think it's sacred to honky in other words.

Best you bone up on your Te Reo and the real meaning of Tapu bro:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Btw,,,if you ment there's a Rahui aimed at non Maori use of the lake,,,your wrong.:no:

[Berries]

You are wrong. Best bone up on your English.

[liljegren]

There are no Maori in New Zealand. There are some part-Maori people. They are a social group, no longer wholly defined by race.
I'm a Pom by birth, so I'm even more fucked up!
:confused:

[Winston001]

You are wrong

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833926

They're just greedy fuckwits like the rest of us. I think issue would resolve it's self very quickly if most New Zealanders suddenly pronounced themselves as "Maori".

Fair enough, understood. However the Maori King saying Maori "own water" doesn't mean much. He is a figurehead and talking in simple terms. I doubt he knows the subtleties of the real arguments. The hui resolved "proprietary rights must be settled...etc". Rights to water - just like we already have in a myriad of resource consent orders today.

[Winston001]

Just to muddy the waters as t'were, there is an obscure body of law which recognises aboriginal rights. These are customary pre-colonial uses and rights enjoyed by indigenous people prior to the arrival of the Dutch, Belgians, Spanish...and the English.

Aboriginal being in its original meaning of native peoples.

Canada is recognising such rights, New Zealand is leading the world, and Australia is slowly catching up. A claim to actual ownership of water can be made under aboriginal rights.

[Berries]

There was a documentary that covered how those aboriginal rights may affect modern day issues. The Castle.

Tell him he's dreaming.

[Maha]

Tapu to honky:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh:

So you think it's sacred to honky in other words.

Best you bone up on your Te Reo and the real meaning of Tapu bro:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Btw,,,if you ment there's a Rahui aimed at non Maori use of the lake,,,your wrong.:no:

I understand what Tapu means and why Lake Rotokakahi is Tapu....because of the Maori burial site on the Island.
The lake is Tapu and looks Paku/Kaka 12 months of the year even during the summer season because of it....(not used)
I also know that Lake Tikitapu is not sacred to little plastic green figures.


...and thats you're not your...you are welcome.

[Road kill]

I understand what Tapu means and why Lake Rotokakahi is Tapu....because of the Maori burial site on the Island.
The lake is Tapu and looks Paku/Kaka 12 months of the year even during the summer season because of it....(not used)
I also know that Lake Tikitapu is not sacred to little plastic green figures.


...and thats you're not your...you are welcome.

The lake is covered by a general Rahui that covers everybody,not just non Maori.

And that's Honkie,not honky.

You're most welcome as well:msn-wink:

[insomnia01]

Reading an interesting article outlining the 2014 introduction of " Water Metering for landlords & Renters " With all this race bashing about who owns what, it seems profiteering from another earthly " Commodity " has already been formed as part of another tax idea for years to come by local councils & government bodies :niceone:. Apartment dwellers watch out !!!:no::no::no:

[Drew]

Reading an interesting article outlining the 2014 introduction of " Water Metering for landlords & Renters " With all this race bashing about who owns what, it seems profiteering from another earthly " Commodity " has already been formed as part of another tax idea for years to come by local councils & government bodies :niceone:. Apartment dwellers watch out !!!:no::no::no:What the fuck are you talking about? Metered water costs are for the getting of said water to the tap, not paying tor the water itself.

[Road kill]

There are no Maori in New Zealand. There are some part-Maori people. They are a social group, no longer wholly defined by race.
I'm a Pom by birth, so I'm even more fucked up!
:confused:

Where do you get that from,,,the no Maori bit ?

[insomnia01]

What the fuck are you talking about? Metered water costs are for the getting of said water to the tap, not paying tor the water itself.

makes for a expensive commodity then dont it !!!

[FJRider]

Aboriginal being in its original meaning of native peoples.

Canada is recognising such rights, New Zealand is leading the world, and Australia is slowly catching up. A claim to actual ownership of water can be made under aboriginal rights.

If the Maori were the original owners of the land maybe ... but they're not. They killed/ate/drove of the original owners ...

Then white fella's came and took over ownership .... whats changed apart from the owners skin colour ... ???

[Road kill]

If the Maori were the original owners of the land maybe ... but they're not. They killed/ate/drove of the original owners ...

Then white fella's came and took over ownership .... whats changed apart from the owners skin colour ... ???

My family line comes from before Maori times,,as do most of Nga puhi,,,so if that's true it was obviously a little more complex than "drove off or killed",,plus it happened over a very long time not just in the last 200 years.

The white fella's took over nothing,,they were invited in and they signed an agreement they've had trouble living with ever since.

So what's your point anyway ?

[huff3r]

What the fuck are you talking about? Metered water costs are for the getting of said water to the tap, not paying tor the water itself.

Not to mention turning the filthy river water or whatever into clean, drinkable water. If you're really worried about water costs you could always go get some from the local river and purify it yourself...

(On that note, why do flushing toilets need to use drinkable tap water to flush? Surely untreated river water would work?).

[huff3r]

My family line comes from before Maori times,,as do most of Nga puhi,,,so if that's true it was obviously a little more complex than "drove off or killed",,plus it happened over a very long time not just in the last 200 years.

The white fella's took over nothing,,they were invited in and they signed an agreement they've had trouble living with ever since.

So what's your point anyway ?

Would you rather they did "take over"? They could've quite easily if they really wanted. And the agreement was bullshit, both sides agree to that.

[Madness]

On that note, why do flushing toilets need to use drinkable tap water to flush? Surely untreated river water would work?.

Are you serious? Imagine the costs involved in both building & maintaining a duplicate of the existing water supply pipelines to effect such a plan. Besides that, imagine how enthusiastic certain sectors of our society would be at the thought of brownish dunny water. The tourism & hospitality sector comes to mind as a start.

[FJRider]

My family line comes from before Maori times,,as do most of Nga puhi,,,so if that's true it was obviously a little more complex than "drove off or killed",,plus it happened over a very long time not just in the last 200 years.

The white fella's took over nothing,,they were invited in and they signed an agreement they've had trouble living with ever since.

So what's your point anyway ?

Before Maori times ... ??? So ... Nga puhi are not Maori then ... ???

[DEATH_INC.]

plus it happened over a very long time not just in the last 200 years.
What does the time have to do with it? The fact still remains that the Maori are no more native than anyone else left in this country.
We need to stop all this stupid money wasting treaty shit, have 1 set of rules for everyone, and get back to the important shit like building more roads and racetracks for us ALL to play on.

[Road kill]

Would you rather they did "take over"? They could've quite easily if they really wanted. And the agreement was bullshit, both sides agree to that.

They tried in Northland an got their arses handed to them on a plate,the treaty was then signed as a direct result of that.

later battles in the Waikato and Taranaki were simply the result the colonial gov't dishonouring it's own treaty.

Maori's biggist mistake was in trusting the whites to keeping their word on anything.

Maori should of just killed every one of the dirty bastards the minite they stepped off the boat.

They could of quite easily if they'd really wanted,,which unlike your bullshit,,is actually true.

[imdying]

They tried in Northland an got their arses handed to them on a plate,the treaty was then signed as a direct result of that.

later battles in the Waikato and Taranaki were simply the result the colonial gov't dishonouring it's own treaty.

Maori's biggist mistake was in trusting the whites to keeping their word on anything.

Maori should of just killed every one of the dirty bastards the minite they stepped off the boat.

They could of quite easily if they'd really wanted,,which unlike your bullshit,,is actually true.What a load of rubbish... the only reason the British didn't send all the mud people to their god was that they'd bitten off more than they could chew in other more relevant areas of the world and couldn't be fucked with the effort to shore up some little island about as far away from the motherland as possible. It was cheaper and easier just to buy the darkies off with some blankets than to eradicate them... besides, savages make good slaves, can't work them if they're all dead. 50 years earlies they'd have all been pushing up daisies, the maori people should be grateful that fate leaned their way.

[FJRider]

We need to stop all this stupid money wasting treaty shit, have 1 set of rules for everyone, and get back to the important shit like building more roads and racetracks for us ALL to play on.

So maori will claim customary rights on them too ... ???

[DEATH_INC.]

besides, savages make good slaves,
Don't slaves work???? :laugh:

[imdying]

Don't slaves work???? :laugh:Well the white man was stupid enough to give them KFC and the benefit... so that's his own doing!

[FJRider]

Well the white man was stupid enough to give them KFC and the benefit... so that's his own doing!

Don't forget ... musket's and booze as well ...

[Maha]

We need to stop all this stupid money wasting treaty shit, have 1 set of rules for everyone, and get back to the important shit like building more roads.

Money plays a big part when it comes to progess. I cost $Million to see a Taniwha disappear at Mercer about 10 years ago so roading could continue.
That ponga log wasn't always there....:shifty:

[Winston001]

It cost $Million to see a Taniwha disappear at Mercer about 10 years ago so roading could continue.


It does seem absurd. Curiously, the leader of the Labour Party David Shearer believes in the Taniwha concept:


Labour Party leader David Shearer has long-held beliefs that taniwha must be respected when it comes to Maori and their interests in water. His views can be traced back to his master’s thesis, and he stands by them today.
Water has been the big political issue of the year, but when Mr Shearer was first asked who owned it he didn’t know.
But it turns out Mr Shearer has a degree of expertise on the issue – a master’s thesis in fact. It was called Between Two Worlds, Maori Values and Environmental Decision-Making.
In his thesis he advocated that “the belief in taniwha or spiritual pollution…while they may appear irrational to many…cannot simply be dismissed as irrelevant”. It’s a belief he still holds today.
“I absolutely stick by that,” says the Labour Party leader. He says we should acknowledge taniwha. “We have been doing that for the last 20-something years when we have made decisions around water.”

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/09/shearer-believes-in-taniwha/

[jellywrestler]

Money plays a big part when it comes to progess. I cost $Million to see a Taniwha disappear at Mercer about 10 years ago so roading could continue.
That ponga log wasn't always there....:shifty:

yep and in wanganui about twenty years ago they wanted to fill the speedway up with water and run a jet sprint. the zulus got all upset about their 'cultural waters' going so when it was suggested they only fill the speedway (about a kilometer from the sea) when the tides coming in and therefore its sea water and not 'their' water it didn't work BUT 20 family tickets and a bunch of hot dogs was just the job to forget about how cultural their water would be after going through a jetboats driveline

[DEATH_INC.]

yep and in wanganui about twenty years ago they wanted to fill the speedway up with water and run a jet sprint. the zulus got all upset about their 'cultural waters' going so when it was suggested they only fill the speedway (about a kilometer from the sea) when the tides coming in and therefore its sea water and not 'their' water it didn't work BUT 20 family tickets and a bunch of hot dogs was just the job to forget about how cultural their water would be after going through a jetboats driveline

So maybe someone would like to explain how this money (or tickets) works? That's white man magic isn't it? Are the Maori's allowed to use it for cultural purposes?
What a joke...

[bogan]

yep and in wanganui about twenty years ago they wanted to fill the speedway up with water and run a jet sprint. the zulus got all upset about their 'cultural waters' going so when it was suggested they only fill the speedway (about a kilometer from the sea) when the tides coming in and therefore its sea water and not 'their' water it didn't work BUT 20 family tickets and a bunch of hot dogs was just the job to forget about how cultural their water would be after going through a jetboats driveline

This is a big part of the problem I think. While there are a large number of maori descendants, a much smaller number of that want to be treated differently with regard to treaty rights etc, an of that smaller number, some do beleive in the righteousness of their cause, while other just want some free KFC. Problem is, the smaller numbers are quick to claim representation over the larger, and scare the politicians into giving them more KFC, encouraged by this they ask for more also. I don't understand why all this new shit keeps coming up, this shit went down ages ago, make all the protests, sort em out, then be done with it.

[Hinny]

There are no Maori in New Zealand. There are some part-Maori people. They are a social group, no longer wholly defined by race.
:confused:

Because there were next to no Maori left Charl Hirschfeld went to the Privy Council and got the definition of a Maori changed to 'anyone who identifies as Maori'.
Bet no one who signed the Treaty of Waitangi could have forseen that.

Interesting that media people seem to regard the claim to wind being promulgated as being something frivolous and without merit.
It clearly has as much merit as the claim to water.
The Prof that was on argued that you couldn't quantify it. That is clearly ridiculous. You can quantify it by the meter registering the electrical output of the wind turbines in the same way the water is quantified.
The claims have equal validity, and that is zero.

[liljegren]

Hi Mr Roadkill. Dont take offence here, but truly, there are no maori in New Zealand, there are only New Zealanders. I'm guessing by your rhetoric, that you are part maori, part non-maori. You then are challenged with seeing this from both sides, your maori side and your nonmaori side. When you can do this, you may be able to claim some sort of benefit from your maori side, and at the same time, pay for that benefit from your non maori side. Is this sounding ridiculous yet?
Perhaps this helps you to remove your racist glasses and see things from the other side, or maybe even allow you to form a balanced view. In 1840 some maori jokers signed(sic) a piece of paper, so did some English jokers. They no more represented me, than they represented you it seems. Get over yourself. We live in a fantastic place, its up to all of us to fuck it up.

[aprilia_RS250]

So in 1967 the NZ gov't nationalised all water development rights under the Water and Soil Conservation Act. So court hearing could say the Crown breached the treaty.

So out of all this what amazes me is that it takes Maori's 45 years to realise this....

Not the sharpest business acumen around...:brick:

[short-circuit]

So in 1967 the NZ gov't nationalised all water development rights under the Water and Soil Conservation Act. So court hearing could say the Crown breached the treaty.

So out of all this what amazes me is that it takes Maori's 45 years to realise this....

Not the sharpest business acumen around...:brick:

I think that may be because they believe they have a partnership with the crown. That's a bit different to a sell off into private hands.

[Hinny]

Not the sharpest business acumen around...:brick:

Any Maori blood that people have came from very cunning people.
You had to be cunning to survive. NZ was not an easy environment to live in. Climatically challenging when all you had to keep you warm was some flax mats. No large 4 legged animals to eat. Most other tribes wanting to eat you, pinch your food and slaves.
Only the cunning survive in that environment.
The modern whingers, haters and wreckers appear to favour the 'racist view' that nature is the defining determinant and that is why these people are so cunning. They were bred cunning....and spiritual.

[aprilia_RS250]

Any Maori blood that people have came from very cunning people.
You had to be cunning to survive. NZ was not an easy environment to live in. Climatically challenging when all you had to keep you warm was some flax mats. No large 4 legged animals to eat. Most other tribes wanting to eat you, pinch your food and slaves.
Only the cunning survive in that environment.
The modern whingers, haters and wreckers appear to favour the 'racist view' that nature is the defining determinant and that is why these people are so cunning. They were bred cunning....and spiritual.

Hardly the case.... NZ is a bit of a 5 star resort compared to Nordic and African environments. Plenty of fish, Moa's, water, trees, no scary wildlife and massive oscillations in climatic conditions.

[RDJ]

You are wrong

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833926

They're just greedy fuckwits like the rest of us. I think issue would resolve it's self very quickly if most New Zealanders suddenly pronounced themselves as "Maori".

Yes. Most of us are just as Maori as Ken Mair. On the other hand, most of us prefer to live in the 21st century rather than try and regress to the 18th century and have 15/16th of our heritage under continuous accusation by the other 16th.

[Swoop]

Very shortly if Key has his way the Chinese will profit from our water for free
Don't mention "land claims" in the same sentence as china. Had a look recently at what they are up to with pissing off their neighbours?
Makes the Maori efforts look bloody pathetic in comparison!

Metered water costs are for the getting of said water to the tap, not paying tor the water itself.
Also, the getting rid of the water. Charges apply as a percentage of water disposed of (down the drains) around 85%(iirc) in Auckland. I bet other councils like the idea of charging twice for a service, so it will spread through the country if allowed to.

[Hinny]

Hardly the case.... NZ is a bit of a 5 star resort compared to Nordic and African environments. Plenty of fish, Moa's, water, trees, no scary wildlife and massive oscillations in climatic conditions.

People get lost in the bush in NZ and if not found after three days they seem to start looking for a body.
Fuck all to eat. They used to eat bracken fern roots - like pigs. Full of silica and would grind out their teeth.

[huff3r]

People get lost in the bush in NZ and if not found after three days they seem to start looking for a body.
Fuck all to eat. They used to eat bracken fern roots - like pigs. Full of silica and would grind out their teeth.

Most people in NZ that got lost in the bush wouldn't know what they could eat! Doesn't mean there isn't anything out there. Have you been to other countries and seen what their bush is like? And how much there is in their bush that will eat YOU?

[SPman]

Divide and conquer, eh. Key and his mates have you guys around their balls........

[Winston001]

Most people in NZ that got lost in the bush wouldn't know what they could eat! Doesn't mean there isn't anything out there. Have you been to other countries and seen what their bush is like? And how much there is in their bush that will eat YOU?

Yeah and you are right - in many ways NZ was a benign paradise for the early people. Plenty of resources compared with the meagre Pacific islands Maori emigrated from. Still, not a lot of protein and the English explorers observed Maori to be undernourished and half starved. Nobodies fault as after 800 years they had reached the limits of hunter-gather societies.

[jonbuoy]

Any Maori blood that people have came from very cunning people.
You had to be cunning to survive. NZ was not an easy environment to live in. Climatically challenging when all you had to keep you warm was some flax mats. No large 4 legged animals to eat. Most other tribes wanting to eat you, pinch your food and slaves.
Only the cunning survive in that environment.
The modern whingers, haters and wreckers appear to favour the 'racist view' that nature is the defining determinant and that is why these people are so cunning. They were bred cunning....and spiritual.

Climaticaly challenging?? Your getting them mixed up with Eskimos.

[Berries]

Nah, I think you mean pineapple lumps.

[jonbuoy]

Nah, I think you mean pineapple lumps.

Ah Jesus dont start dragging the Canucks into this!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/offensive-kiwi-lolly-upsets-canadians/story-e6frg6so-1225700396614

[Hinny]

Most people in NZ that got lost in the bush wouldn't know what they could eat! Doesn't mean there isn't anything out there. Have you been to other countries and seen what their bush is like? And how much there is in their bush that will eat YOU?

They don't die from starvation, they die from hypothermia.

Plenty of opportunity to get eaten in pre-European N.Z.
By the most dangerous animals on Earth.
Nothing benign about that.

[Drew]

Still, not a lot of protein and the English explorers observed Maori to be undernourished and half starved. Nobodies fault as after 800 years they had reached the limits of hunter-gather societies.Are you saying they were here for 800 years before the white man arrived?

A society with no written language couldn't know that, and I don't recall learning it in school from what little NZ history we were taught.

[Winston001]

Are you saying they were here for 800 years before the white man arrived?

A society with no written language couldn't know that, and I don't recall learning it in school from what little NZ history we were taught.

Yes. I'm surprised you weren't taught this because I remember it from primary school. Archeologists date migration of Maori at around 1200 CE.

[Drew]

Sonic whitey had shown up a hundred years later we'd have found nothing but Maori bones with the big ass bird bones?

[Banditbandit]

Still, not a lot of protein and the English explorers observed Maori to be undernourished and half starved. Nobodies fault as after 800 years they had reached the limits of hunter-gather societies.

I'd like to see your references for that. Most of the Europeans remarked how fit and well Māori of the time were. And there is plenty of protein in birds and kaimoana.

And they could not have been worse than the English sailors who arrived here, suffering from scurvey and other nasty diseases. And the average life expectancy in Europe at the time was 28 years old ... the same as for Māori in GodZone. Some have also said that Māōri were better fed than their European counterparts ...

And reached the limit of hunter-gatherer soicetieas? Doubt it - a maximim of half a million people in 66 million acres of bush and plentiful seashore ...

[Drew]

If you're gonna ask for references, should you not also supply some to substantiate your claim? (Hehehe, see what I did there)?

This is all just Internet bullshit I realise, but facts might actually be helpful in the rest of us to form our anti Maori opinions.

[oldrider]

All the usual hysteria and them and us comments flying around again I see.

Government have proposed an action, Maori have asked a question ... what are you all most afraid of?

The question or the answer? .. :confused: .. :corn:

[Banditbandit]

This is all just Internet bullshit I realise, but facts might actually be helpful in the rest of us to form our anti Maori opinions.

Hei aha? Facts have never stopped you in the past ...

In 1771 in a letter James Cook wrote Māori are "a strong, well-made, active people, rather above the common size ..."

Henrik Haelbos (on Tasman's ship) recorded of Māori: "These people were rough, uncivilized strong, full of verve ..." (that doesn't sound poorly noutished to me).

Monkhouse (On the Endevour) wrote that in Tolaga Bay the local peope had about 100 acres under cultivation (so much for the hunetr-gatrherers ... they were farming as well).

Cook (1769) records: "The people in these Canoes made a very good appearance being al stout and wel made men ..."

PLenty more ... that's enough ...

And in her book Two Worlds Anne Salmond writes of Europe at the time of first contact in GodZone: "The average lifespan was short - in seventeenth century Paris, the average life expectancy was 23 years (although some people lived into their eighties and nineties), while in the ruling families of Western Europe during this period the average male life expectancy was 28 years and the average female lifespan was 34 yerars (Salmond, page 48, citing Kamen, Henry, 1971, The Iron Century: Social Change in Europe 1550-1660, London, Weidenfeld and Nicolson.

Salmond also wtrite (page 10) "Europeans [of the time] lived about as long as pre-Europen Maori, but overall they were prone to disease and quite often less well fed."

[Drew]

All the usual hysteria and them and us comments flying around again I see.

Government have proposed an action, Maori have asked a question ... what are you all most afraid of?

The question or the answer? .. :confused: .. :corn:answers don't scare me. Billions of dollars being spent unwisely however, sends me cowering in the corner!


Hei aha? Facts have never stopped you in the past ...

In 1771 in a letter James Cook wrote Māori are "a strong, well-made, active people, rather above the common size ..."

Henrik Haelbos (on Tasman's ship) recorded of Māori: "These people were rough, uncivilized strong, full of verve ..." (that doesn't sound poorly noutished to me).

Monkhouse (On the Endevour) wrote that in Tolaga Bay the local peope had about 100 acres under cultivation (so much for the hunetr-gatrherers ... they were farming as well).

Cook (1769) records: "The people in these Canoes made a very good appearance being al stout and wel made men ..."

PLenty more ... that's enough ...

And in her book Two Worlds Anne Salmond writes of Europe at the time of first contact in GodZone: "The average lifespan was short - in seventeenth century Paris, the average life expectancy was 23 years (although some people lived into their eighties and nineties), while in the ruling families of Western Europe during this period the average male life expectancy was 28 years and the average female lifespan was 34 yerars (Salmond, page 48, citing Kamen, Henry, 1971, The Iron Century: Social Change in Europe 1550-1660, London, Weidenfeld and Nicolson.

Salmond also wtrite (page 10) "Europeans [of the time] lived about as long as pre-Europen Maori, but overall they were prone to disease and quite often less well fed."
Well bloody hell, I have learnt something from kiwibiker, that I will try my best to retain.

Some of that rings a bell from past teachings now that you write it, just can't have been interested back then I suppose.

[Paul in NZ]

Drew - if you are keen I really recommend Michael Kings 'Penguin History of New Zealand'. Like most of Michael Kings work its very readable...

[Paul in NZ]

Most people in NZ that got lost in the bush wouldn't know what they could eat! Doesn't mean there isn't anything out there. Have you been to other countries and seen what their bush is like? And how much there is in their bush that will eat YOU?

Actually on every survival course I've been on it was stated clearly that in most cases, unless you are lucky enough to get lost in an orchard or vege patch you will most likely spend more energy gathering food in the bush these days than you will recover from the food. (this is south island btw)

Spend your energy improving your chance of discovery or getting unlost OR save your energy for surviving by minimizing losses.

[Drew]

Drew - if you are keen I really recommend Michael Kings 'Penguin History of New Zealand'. Like most of Michael Kings work its very readable...Are you suggesting I try and learn something? I'll hunt you down and kill ya if you are.


Actually on every survival course I've been on it was stated clearly that in most cases, unless you are lucky enough to get lost in an orchard or vege patch you will most likely spend more energy gathering food in the bush these days than you will recover from the food. (this is south island btw)

Spend your energy improving your chance of discovery or getting unlost OR save your energy for surviving by minimizing losses.I'd have thought our plentifull supply of creepy crawlies could keep a person alive and energised for a little while at least.

Learnt two things, can't commit them both to the file though so one will have to go.

[brendonjw]

weren't the Morioris (SP) here before the Maoris.....

[Meanie]

All the usual hysteria and them and us comments flying around again I see.

Government have proposed an action, Maori have asked a question ... what are you all most afraid of?

The question or the answer? .. :confused: .. :corn:

The cost to the economy just to sort this out must be huge, thats before any agreed payout has been made.
Im afraid the county will go broke trying to sort ownership of everything out, only people winning here will be the lawyers

I cant see how any one can claim to have more rights or ownership in NZ than the other, after all we all have relatives that emigrated here at some stage.

[Drew]

weren't the Morioris (SP) here before the Maoris.....

My understanding here is that the Maori are here, because they had to yet the fuck out of dodge ( so to speak) after an altercation with moriori wherever they live.

[FJRider]

All the usual hysteria and them and us comments flying around again I see.

Government have proposed an action, Maori have asked a question ... what are you all most afraid of?

The question or the answer? .. :confused: .. :corn:

From "The Herald" ...

"Some of New Zealand's biggest tribes are drawing up plans to take on the Government over control of the country's water.

The Weekend Herald understands that leaders of Tainui, Ngai Tahu, Tuwharetoa and Whanganui met on Thursday to develop a strategy to combat the exclusion of Maori from control of the country's fresh water.

The hui was called and hosted in Taupo by influential Tuwharetoa paramount chief Tumu te Heuheu, a key adviser and mentor of new Maori King Tuheitia.

The iwi argue that they have property rights to the billions of dollars earned from the lakes and rivers, which are the source of much of the country's drinking water.

If the move succeeds, it could see water users depending on iwi for their supply. Commercial users, in particular, could face an iwi levy."


Sounds like more than "Just asked a question" to me ...

[Drew]

From "The Herald" ...

"Some of New Zealand's biggest tribes are drawing up plans to take on the Government over control of the country's water.

The Weekend Herald understands that leaders of Tainui, Ngai Tahu, Tuwharetoa and Whanganui met on Thursday to develop a strategy to combat the exclusion of Maori from control of the country's fresh water.

The hui was called and hosted in Taupo by influential Tuwharetoa paramount chief Tumu te Heuheu, a key adviser and mentor of new Maori King Tuheitia.

The iwi argue that they have property rights to the billions of dollars earned from the lakes and rivers, which are the source of much of the country's drinking water.

If the move succeeds, it could see water users depending on iwi for their supply. Commercial users, in particular, could face an iwi levy."


Sounds like more than "Just asked a question" to me ...Paints a bleak picture, but I've yet to see any media in this country held accountable for misrepresenting anything, and it happens a lot.

[FJRider]

Paints a bleak picture, but I've yet to see any media in this country held accountable for misrepresenting anything, and it happens a lot.

There used to be a saying ... Where there's muck, there's brass. :yes:

Now ... Where's there's brass, there's a Treaty of Waitangi claim ... :whistle:

[Drew]

There used to be a saying ... Where there's muck, there's brass. :yes:

Now ... Where's there's brass, there's a Treaty of Waitangi claim ... :whistle:Treaty claims give me the shits, I don't dispute that they need to be addressed, but they seem to pop up whenever it occurs that something might actually be lucrative.

I think that there should have been an end date set on when they have to be in, as on political party or another suggested some years ago.

[FJRider]

Treaty claims give me the shits, I don't dispute that they need to be addressed, but they seem to pop up whenever it occurs that something might actually be lucrative.

You noticed that too ... :calm:


I think that there should have been an end date set on when they have to be in, as on political party or another suggested some years ago.

I think there already is ...

http://www.treaty2u.govt.nz/the-treaty-today/settling-claims/index.htm

[Paul in NZ]

Are you suggesting I try and learn something? I'll hunt you down and kill ya if you are.

Um - you would probably need to read a map to do that..... I feel safer somehow now.... :sweatdrop

[oldrider]

"Empathy" is to truly understand a situation from the point of view of another party.

New Zealand (one country, one people, since 1840) is like a three legged stool, a trilogy of ... Maori .. Pakeha .. Crown I.E. Government!

Take one leg out and the stool falls over, or at best becomes unstable!

Empathy is a key ingredient in the make up of the material that the stool is made of.

Unfortunately "empathy" has been a missing ingredient since the treaty's inception and all three parties are as guilty as each other of failing to "honour the treaty"!

It's not too late to make it work but pointless emotional bickering will not make that happen and the healing process starts with each of "YOU"!

Think about what you say or write and ask yourself will this contribute positively to the outcome that we all desperately need?

Lets all move on together, as New Zealanders! :niceone:

[Drew]

"Empathy" is to truly understand a situation from the point of view of another party.

New Zealand (one country, one people, since 1840) is like a three legged stool, a trilogy of ... Maori .. Pakeha .. Crown I.E. Government!

Take one leg out and the stool falls over, or at best becomes unstable!

Empathy is a key ingredient in the make up of the material that the stool is made of.

Unfortunately "empathy" has been a missing ingredient since the treaty's inception and all three parties are as guilty as each other of failing to "honour the treaty"!

It's not too late to make it work but pointless emotional bickering will not make that happen and the healing process starts with each of "YOU"!

Think about what you say or write and ask yourself will this contribute positively to the outcome that we all desperately need?

Lets all move on together, as New Zealanders! :niceone:

Shut the fuck up! It's way easier to point the finger!

I think you imply the problem is bigger than I see it though. Most kiwis don't really give a shot about any of it, till it's on the news and poorly reported on with an eye firmly shut. It is the small percentage of each group, (except the governing leg, they're all stupid about shit all the time), who are creating mass hysteria and hindering the growth of us as a country.

The Maori got fucked over when whitey sold the land they were using instead of giving it back. But until whitey got here, some of what was sold was not in any way workable for the Maori. Rivers and lakes are a perfect example! The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!

The land under the lakes, created when dams went up, probably a claim to be made there, IF there is proof said land was worked.

I have presented this from the white fella perspective, I'll now have a crack at the flip side.

Whitey came here and shafted the Maori by selling their land. They need to give it back, or pay for it... Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

[Banditbandit]

Shut the fuck up! It's way easier to point the finger!

I think you imply the problem is bigger than I see it though. Most kiwis don't really give a shot about any of it, till it's on the news and poorly reported on with an eye firmly shut. It is the small percentage of each group, (except the governing leg, they're all stupid about shit all the time), who are creating mass hysteria and hindering the growth of us as a country.

The Maori got fucked over when whitey sold the land they were using instead of giving it back. But until whitey got here, some of what was sold was not in any way workable for the Maori. Rivers and lakes are a perfect example! The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!


The land under the lakes, created when dams went up, probably a claim to be made there, IF there is proof said land was worked.

I have presented this from the white fella perspective, I'll now have a crack at the flip side.

Whitey came here and shafted the Maori by selling their land. They need to give it back, or pay for it... Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

Hey .. not bad ... a little short on the attempt from "the flip side". However, many of us have no dispute over genuinely sold land - but much of the land was unfairly confiscated, outright stolen, or taken for "public works" with the promise of its return when ti was no longer needed - but then never returned - e.g. the Raglan Golf Course. And then there was the land that was taken through fraud and trickiness.

However ... "The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!"

"Using land to it's potential" is a Euro-centric idea not shared by any indigenous people around the world - land just is - it does not have "potential" in any indigenous terms ... That's where there has been a fundamental dispute between Euro-centic groups and indigenous peope all around the world ... ever since the masive expansion from Europe from the 17th centuury onwards ...

[MisterD]

Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

There isn't one. Bob Jones wrote an excellent column a few weeks ago, pointing out that in normal contract disputes, one goes back to look at both parties' intent when they signed.

It's blindingly obvious that the intent of the "full possession blah blah" clause was to protect the economic base of the tribes, so if their fishing or canoe-transport was suddenly going to be affected by the building of a new dam then they absolutely have a claim.

Maori need to go to court and show that they meet the criteria for customary title (ie common law ownership), and the last Labour govt should have had the balls to let them do that over the F&S. This whole Waitangi Tribunal exercise in foot-stamping tantrums is because they know damn-well that they don't pass that customary title test. Diddums.

[Banditbandit]

There isn't one. Bob Jones wrote an excellent column a few weeks ago, pointing out that in normal contract disputes, one goes back to look at both parties' intent when they signed.

It's blindingly obvious that the intent of the "full possession blah blah" clause was to protect the economic base of the tribes, so if their fishing or canoe-transport was suddenly going to be affected by the building of a new dam then they absolutely have a claim.

Maori need to go to court and show that they meet the criteria for customary title (ie common law ownership), and the last Labour govt should have had the balls to let them do that over the F&S. This whole Waitangi Tribunal exercise in foot-stamping tantrums is because they know damn-well that they don't pass that customary title test. Diddums.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I suspect that customary use of water is much mch easier to prove than customary use of the foreshore and seabed. After all, we all drink water and we have been doing it since "whitey" arrived ... no need to prove continued customary use - it's obvious ...

[MisterD]

I suspect that customary use of water is much mch easier to prove than customary use of the foreshore and seabed. After all, we all drink water and we have been doing it since "whitey" arrived ... no need to prove continued customary use - it's obvious ...

Customary use commuting in yer waka? Customary use trapping eels? Or just customary use, getting it out of a white-man's tap?

I wonder, did local Iwi ever standover the builder of this establishment, demanding a cut of profits:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Whanganui_Kawana_Mill.jpg

[bogan]

"Using land to it's potential" is a Euro-centric idea not shared by any indigenous people around the world - land just is - it does not have "potential" in any indigenous terms ... That's where there has been a fundamental dispute between Euro-centic groups and indigenous peope all around the world ... ever since the masive expansion from Europe from the 17th centuury onwards ...

So if the hydrodams were put under iwi control, would they tear them down to spit in the face of the euro-centric ideals, or would they keep em to sell the electricity generated?

[Banditbandit]

Customary use commuting in yer waka? Customary use trapping eels? Or just customary use, getting it out of a white-man's tap?

I wonder, did local Iwi ever standover the builder of this establishment, demanding a cut of profits:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Whanganui_Kawana_Mill.jpg

I have not taken water out of a white man's tap for man y many years - always taken water off my own land.

Definitely customary use for eeling - very easy to prove ... look at any creek or river on the weekend to watch the tamariki eeling ..

Customary use of waka - also easy to prove (ever been at Ngaruawahia for the river racing?) And my relations stil use their waka up and down the Whanganui River ...

The Kawana Mill? On my whanau land ... built by Govenor Grey to process Māori-grown wheat into flour ... we used water power to grind our flour and sell it to you lot!

http://attractions.nzherald.co.nz/venue/kawana-mill-new-zealand

[Banditbandit]

So if the hydrodams were put under iwi control, would they tear them down to spit in the face of the euro-centric ideals, or would they keep em to sell the electricity generated?

Well, we might take our water back into the Whanganui ... stop it going over Tuwharetoa's maunga and into Tainui's River ..

But sell the electricity of course ... ol' whitey has taught us well .. rip of the consumers so we make a profit!

[bogan]

But sell the electricity of course ... ol' whitey has taught us well .. rip of the consumers so we make a profit!

And there's your answer, you embrace these eurocentric ideals when there's money in it for you; and claim they have wronged you, well when there is money/property in it for you too. Seems like the european way of life is the way to go, lucky we came over an hooked you guys up with it right?

[MisterD]

built by Govenor Grey to process Māori-grown wheat into flour

Being a sales-type person, I've always strongly believed that if you give something away for free, it isn't valued by the recipient.

It's about time we rectified that and levied a technology licencing fee on Iwi to allow continued use of all the stuff that the white man brought and I'm sorry, but no more motorcycling for you, until you've paid your "Maori miles". It's
not so bad though, if you join Dirt Division, you're only paying for the wheels and engine component and you don't need to stump up for the sealed-road bit.

Now, I just need to go away and calculate what you owe per-word for the written alphabet.

[Winston001]

Hei aha? Facts have never stopped you in the past ...

In 1771 in a letter James Cook wrote Māori are "a strong, well-made, active people, rather above the common size ..."

Henrik Haelbos (on Tasman's ship) recorded of Māori: "These people were rough, uncivilized strong, full of verve ..." (that doesn't sound poorly noutished to me).

Monkhouse (On the Endevour) wrote that in Tolaga Bay the local peope had about 100 acres under cultivation (so much for the hunetr-gatrherers ... they were farming as well).

Cook (1769) records: "The people in these Canoes made a very good appearance being al stout and wel made men ..."

PLenty more ... that's enough ...

And in her book Two Worlds Anne Salmond writes of Europe at the time of first contact in GodZone: "The average lifespan was short - in seventeenth century Paris, the average life expectancy was 23 years (although some people lived into their eighties and nineties), while in the ruling families of Western Europe during this period the average male life expectancy was 28 years and the average female lifespan was 34 yerars (Salmond, page 48, citing Kamen, Henry, 1971, The Iron Century: Social Change in Europe 1550-1660, London, Weidenfeld and Nicolson.

Salmond also wtrite (page 10) "Europeans [of the time] lived about as long as pre-Europen Maori, but overall they were prone to disease and quite often less well fed."

Very good, thanks for that. I was wrong. :weep: Must have been remembering some other exploration report.

My apologies.

[Drew]

It's getting a bit "us and them" again. People don't try to see past that, and it makes discussion moot.

I am truly interested to hear a compelling argument for the Maori positive here.

As an aside, can someone tell me how a tribe owns lambton quay in Wellington? I thought that shit was under water before the White devil got here.

[bogan]

It's getting a bit "us and them" again. People don't try to see past that, and it makes discussion moot.

How is it ever not though? Who gets the money, they do; who pays for it, we do. I mean FFS, my ancestors were scottish or some shit, those brawlers didn't sign no treaty...

[SPman]

...So Maori - in this Pakeha view - are to be subject to a low threshold of Pakeha intolerance, but Maori must have basically unlimited tolerance to put up with whatever Pakeha impose - and this is held up as the recipe for race relations harmony. It is template for the domination and dependence of Maori; and the Pakeha wouldn't have it any other way - certainly not this one. This is the colonial conceit common in every country taken over by European immigrants: the natives can co-exist with us as long as they do what we tell them, when we tell them and how we tell them, and if they don't... they don't get to exist any more.

Along with the conceit is the sheer hypocrisy, especially considering what is going on in Canterbury right now. The elected regional councillors were sacked by the National government because they refused to allocate water to the farmers. The government intend to extend the undemocratic take-over until their appointees can give all the water away to their farmer chums. The scarce water resource on the plains are being divided as if the Crown owns it all. The water is valuable, it can be put into the possession of someone and those rights are recognised by the council and the other Crown agencies, so it does have all the attributes of property and ownership as discussed above. Pakeha don't have a problem with the Crown owning it of course because the Crown is an instrument of the Pakeha and can be relied on to do their bidding (against the interests of Maori).

The facts of how the official Crown position of "no-one owns the water" came about and how Pakeha think about water is ignored. The fact is that in most instances the Crown (and Pakeha via the Crown) asserted control over various water bodies against the wishes of Maori. The story of why the Crown controls water is shameful, unlawful, unconstitutional (Treaty breaches at the least) and opportunistic in the extreme. For example the original declaration of war by the NZ government on the Kingites and Tainui in 1863 prohibited all Maori travelling by night from the waterways around Auckland. That confiscation declaration took all the lands "up to the waters" of the Waitemata and Manukau. The reason the Crown can claim control is because they murdered and massacred their way through the country on an aggressive 'ethnic cleansing' mission - and seeing as how the Crown is bound by the Treaty that can be no basis for legitimate ownership of the land, the water or anything else in those areas for that matter.

Whenever it's "inconvenient", we get the same "Fuckin Maaris get everything, it'll cost us (suddenly the government's money comes directly out of your pockets), useless cunts, bludgers, take back everything "we " gave them," etc etc divisive bullshit - especially when it seems to be the only way to get the government to hold back the asset sales, which are endorsed by a massive 22% or less, of the population.

It just makes all those involved look like the pathetic, whining, selfish cunts they are!

[Drew]

Whenever it's "inconvenient", we get the same "Fuckin Maaris get everything, it'll cost us (suddenly the government's money comes directly out of your pockets), useless cunts, bludgers, take back everything "we " gave them," etc etc divisive bullshit - especially when it seems to be the only way to get the government to hold back the asset sales, which are endorsed by a massive 22% or less, of the population.

It just makes all those involved look like the pathetic, whining, selfish cunts they are!

Hahahaha, excellent example of the finger pointing.

No fuckin mirrors at your house or summat? You have just done what you are having a bit h about!

[Matariki]

Alright, I don't know whether or not I'm talking to a brick wall here, but I wanted to post some of the facts for those that are actually interested. Please keep in mind that I do not support either the Water nor Wind claim movements.

For those wanting to know in A nutshell what is going on (at least from those making this claim), I found this Q&A: http://roiamaori.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/qa-maori-council-water-claim-and-asset-sales/

According to Tohunga (the Maori religion/wisdom), none of us own anything. The God's (in this case Tangaroa and Io) technically own the water as according to Tohunga, Io (the original God who made all the other Gods), assigned Tangaroa to oversee and look after it. Now, I don't hold to Tohunga as my world view but I wanted to check the claims of those that are using it to support their cases in both the Water and Wind claims.

As for the treaty, it states the following;


Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and to the respective families and individuals thereof the full exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession; but the Chiefs of the United Tribes and the individual Chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of Preemption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective Proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf. - http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-treaty/english-text


Ko te Kuini o Ingarani ka wakarite ka wakaae ki nga Rangitira ki nga hapu – ki nga tangata katoa o Nu Tirani te tino rangatiratanga o o ratou wenua o ratou kainga me o ratou taonga katoa. Otiia ko nga Rangatira o te wakaminenga me nga Rangatira katoa atu ka tuku ki te Kuini te hokonga o era wahi wenua e pai ai te tangata nona te Wenua – ki te ritenga o te utu e wakaritea ai e ratou ko te kai hoko e meatia nei e te Kuini hei kai hoko mona. - http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-treaty/maori-text



In the English text, Māori leaders and people, collectively and individually, were confirmed and guaranteed 'exclusive and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries and other properties'. Māori also agreed to the Crown's exclusive right to purchase their land. Some Māori (and British) later stated that they understood the Crown to have a first option rather than an exclusive right to buy.

In the Māori text, Māori were guaranteed 'te tino rangatiratanga' or the unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, villages, and all their property and treasures. Māori also agreed to give the Crown the right to buy their land if they wished to sell it. It is not certain if the Maori text clearly conveyed the implications of exclusive Crown purchase. - http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-Treaty/differences-between-the-texts

Both texts don't mention the legal ownership of fresh water bodies (lakes, rivers, streams etc.), but rather the legal ownership of land and what passes through it (excluding the sea, the Maori have rights to use the sea and oversee it if the land they own includes the beach front - traditional fishing grounds). Technically, both the Maori and Pakeha (foreigners), if they own the land that the water passes through, then they have legal ownership over the water (within the law, including the Maori hapu who signed the treaty of Waitangi). However its important to note that the pan Maori movement changed some the legal aspects in terms of Maori identity and affiliation;


During the 19th and 20th centuries, iwi (tribes) began to replace hapū (clans or descent groups) as the main political body. From the mid- to late 19th century, Māori had increasingly sought pan-tribal unity in order to oppose government measures that were not in Māori interests. Government policy actually favoured the shift from hapū to iwi, as the Crown preferred to deal with a small number of regional iwi groups rather than numerous hapū. After 1945, tribal trust boards were formed on an iwi basis in order to settle historical Māori grievances under the Treaty of Waitangi. This process continues today. Many tribes have formed regional iwi groupings to lodge claims with the Waitangi Tribunal. The 1992 fisheries settlement was with iwi rather than hapū. Today most Māori tribal organisations are formed at an iwi rather than hapū level. Usually they are legally constituted tribal trust boards and rūnanga (managing bodies). - http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/tribal-organisation/6

But here's the twist; some of the Hapu (subtribes) and Iwi (tribes) (under the representation of their respective chiefs) did not sign the treaty. But Because of the Pan Maori movement, its not as simple as stating this Iwi 'did' or 'didn't' sign. In the days of when the treaty was being signed, the territory of an Iwi was viewed as its own country within a continent, Aotearoa/New Zealand. The Hapu were viewed by the Maori at the time as independent states. I think the way it is determined today with which Iwi signed or didn't sign is based on which Chiefs at the time had the most Mana (Influence/Authority) within their Iwi. As a result the following Iwi are recognized to have not signed the treaty; Tuhoe, Waikato, Te Arawa, Ngati Paoa and Tuwharetoa.

Which means ideally for the Iwi that did not sign as a whole, continue to communally own their territory and have first say over procedures (with the exception of if the Iwi decides to sell their land to the crown or those that are bound by the crown regarding its property laws (foreigners of non Maori decent or recognition). So the Maori King is correct when he states that his Iwi as a whole did not give up their Mana to the crown over the water that goes through the land that they own. But John Key is also right when he states that no one owns the water. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833926

But some lingering questions still remain;
What happens if a Hapu within an Iwi (that is recognized legally to have not signed the treaty as a whole), states that they did sign the treaty (or vice versa)?
Who has the ultimate legal authority in this case, the Iwi or the Crown?
Which movement is legally more valid, the treaty of Waitangi, or the Pan-Maori movement?

Here's where I stand; Is that the Te Reo version of the treaty of Waitangi should of been the most legally valid out of the two translations considering that most of the chiefs who signed the treaty, consented to and signed the Te Reo version. Legally accepting the Pan-Maori movement in my view was a mistake (and this is coming from someone who is Maori/Pakeha and whose direct ancestors signed the treaty of Waitangi), In my opinion based on what I know, if the Te Reo version of the treaty of Waitangi was deemed to be the most legally valid out of the two translations, we probably wouldn't be in the mess that we are in now and the Pan-Maori movement probably wouldn't of occurred. However I also believe that its too late now to rewrite historical legal documents without violating the rights of all New Zealand citizens who own and use property (whether their own private land, or communally owned land or public land), I believe that all New Zealander's should have a right to own their own property and use public property. If something were to change, It wouldn't change without a paying some form of a great price. I can't see anyway of how this could be resolved peacefully, even more so with the increasing number of Maori returning to their roots. The whole thing is a complete and utter mess; culturally, financially and politically.

[FJRider]

Alright, I don't know whether or not I'm talking to a brick wall here, but I wanted to post some of the facts for those that are actually interested. Please keep in mind that I do not support either the Water nor Wind claim movements.



Perhaps what you need to know what Maori want ...

Under the claim, they want:

* The law changed to recognise Maori rangatiratanga and control over fresh water and geothermal resources. (This includes Lakes)

* Compensation for past use and the loss of economic use, and payment for future use.

* A remedy for Crown failure to allow compensation in past and as yet unsettled Treaty settlements.

* The return of all land connected with the generation or transmission of hydro-electricity or geothermal electricity that memorialised under 27B of the State-owned Enterprises Act 1986 [tagged for possible future settlements] and/or a recommendation that the claimants be granted a substantial interest in the Crown's power generating state-owned enterprises.

But it's not about the money ... right ... ???

In 1967 the Lakes and rivers were nationalised ... to allow the free use of these ... and safeguarded for the benefit of all. The care of these national assets were put into the control and management of the goverment of the day. And whichever goverment party is in power.
There have been attempts by maori in the past with these claims ... but Labour never obliged. They no doubt hoped National would.

I doubt it though .... But if you believe the claims are genuine ... Vote (Tick) Maori Party in the next election.

[jonbuoy]

:brick: Mystical Gods, tribes, tribal leaders, "sacred" places this is still 2012 were talking about? Why are people still trying to drag old ground up from the 1800´s? How many worldwide wars and conflicts have we had since then?

[Winston001]

Alright, I don't know whether or not I'm talking to a brick wall here, but I wanted to post some of the facts for those that are actually interested. .....

Now, I don't hold to Tohunga as my world view but I wanted to check the claims of those that are using it to support their cases in both the Water and Wind claims.



Good post.

The conflict of law is cultural. Under English law (adopted in the British Commonwealth and United States) the King/Queen/Crown owns everything. The lot. Land water fish fowl and air. Everything. Our concept of free-hold title to land is at the pleasure of the Crown. Eminent domain means the Crown (State) can take back anything you think you own - duely compensated.

Aboriginal (in the classical sense) cultures hold that everything belongs to their gods and can not be owned by the people. There is no concept of personal ownership but personal possession - yes.

In real life both of these concepts are very close. Humans pass away and ownership cannot survive death. Thus the fundamental ownership underneath always remains with the Crown or the gods who cannot die.

Pakeha say Maori granted all their rights to Queen Victoria. But Maori say that was always subject to their own gods and heiritage which they understood Victoria would protect. Mostly she didn't...

[Matariki]

Perhaps what you need to know what Maori want ...

Under the claim, they want:

* The law changed to recognise Maori rangatiratanga and control over fresh water and geothermal resources. (This includes Lakes)

* Compensation for past use and the loss of economic use, and payment for future use.

* A remedy for Crown failure to allow compensation in past and as yet unsettled Treaty settlements.

* The return of all land connected with the generation or transmission of hydro-electricity or geothermal electricity that memorialised under 27B of the State-owned Enterprises Act 1986 [tagged for possible future settlements] and/or a recommendation that the claimants be granted a substantial interest in the Crown's power generating state-owned enterprises.

But it's not about the money ... right ... ???

In 1967 the Lakes and rivers were nationalised ... to allow the free use of these ... and safeguarded for the benefit of all. The care of these national assets were put into the control and management of the goverment of the day. And whichever goverment party is in power.
There have been attempts by maori in the past with these claims ... but Labour never obliged. They no doubt hoped National would.

I doubt it though .... But if you believe the claims are genuine ... Vote (Tick) Maori Party in the next election.

Although I have family that work in the Maori Party (Tariana Turia and Dr. Keri Lawson Te Aho), but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the Maori parties propositions. Like I said, I don't support the Pan-Maori movement nor the Water or Wind claims (I'm neutral at the moment regarding the Water claim). Its hard to say who is after what in the Water claim. I don't generally trust what is posted by scoop or stuffnz, as their articles are obscure and I feel are lacking in important details, I would however be interested at looking at recorded interviews with those involved. As for what you posted, do you have links or anything that I can have a look at as I'm unfamiliar with the statements (I don't know whether they're your own, or if they're quoted.)

When you say 'Maori' are you referring to everyone who is ethnically Maori, or the Maori party, or an Iwi or Hapu? I'm Maori and I know what I want, some ibuprofen because this whole current political situation is giving me a headache.

[Winston001]

:brick: Mystical Gods, tribes, tribal leaders, "sacred" places this is still 2012 were talking about? Why are people still trying to drag old ground up from the 1800´s? How many worldwide wars and conflicts have we had since then?

LOL agreed but if you delve into it our ideas laws and ways of thinking range back to foundations in the 13th century. Magna Carta is part of our law (+ the USA + Commonwealth) and is used today.

I'm no expert but the heavy thinking goes back into Roman Law and beyond that to the ancient Greeks who came up with the ideas of democracy and individual rights 3000 years ago.

Seriously, it is thanks to those guys that we have the freedoms we take for granted today.

[Matariki]

:brick: Mystical Gods, tribes, tribal leaders, "sacred" places this is still 2012 were talking about? Why are people still trying to drag old ground up from the 1800´s? How many worldwide wars and conflicts have we had since then?

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2009/243/3/e/Attempting_to_give_a_damn____by_fallschirm_jaeger. gif

Sorry, but I was unable to process enough cognitive data to give a damn to educate you on the historical foundations of human society and cultral identity.

[Matariki]

NZ Maori Council co-Chair Sir Eddie Durie says claim does not cover all NZ water


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZV4aHCUYMc

[mashman]

Shut the fuck up! It's way easier to point the finger!

I think you imply the problem is bigger than I see it though. Most kiwis don't really give a shot about any of it, till it's on the news and poorly reported on with an eye firmly shut. It is the small percentage of each group, (except the governing leg, they're all stupid about shit all the time), who are creating mass hysteria and hindering the growth of us as a country.

The Maori got fucked over when whitey sold the land they were using instead of giving it back. But until whitey got here, some of what was sold was not in any way workable for the Maori. Rivers and lakes are a perfect example! The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!

The land under the lakes, created when dams went up, probably a claim to be made there, IF there is proof said land was worked.

I have presented this from the white fella perspective, I'll now have a crack at the flip side.

Whitey came here and shafted the Maori by selling their land. They need to give it back, or pay for it... Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

Are you saying that whitey has the IP for the wheel? and by extension every piece of technology that was ever created, because they "invented" commerce? and that even though the Maori were traders, they never would have had access to any of the technology because they're too stupid to understand the positives that comes with it?

....

I guess once "title" has been granted to anyone for land/water/air/my naval fluff, you could class it as theft. It belonged to no one before us. For me the idea of ownership is legislative only. People wanting to hold claim over "assets". I can fully understand that given the way the world works... but it would seem counter-intuitive to have individuals or groups owning/renting land with legal rights that "gift" the riches of that land to an individual or group given that we are all supposed to be in the same boat. Some want the land to live off, some want it to turn a profit, some will look after the land and some will rape the fuck out of it. This whole process is almost comical as it seems as though this is nothing more than a lolly scramble with the vast majority of the country not benefiting 1 iota. My only hope, yes hope, is that Maori are wanting the water not only to make a profit, but to keep an eye on what some obviously (to me anyway) consider sacred and in need of protection. A naive point of view perhaps, but someone needs to do it, as whitey mcwhite hasn't really done a good job of that so far imho. At the end of the day the argument boils down to who is getting the money and what do they intend to do with it... well at least that seems to be the recurring theme in the thread and the media. The rest will be sorted in a court of law and not for the benefit of all. Shame really.

[Drew]

Are you saying that whitey has the IP for the wheel? and by extension every piece of technology that was ever created, because they "invented" commerce? and that even though the Maori were traders, they never would have had access to any of the technology because they're too stupid to understand the positives that comes with it?

....Hahahahahaha, what? No.

I used the wheel example, to illustrate that Maori were no where near technologically advanced enough to harness water, in anything but a bucket.

I have to go a bit off topic and point out my surprise at this too. Maori are descended from asia somewhere aren't they? Those little zipper head mofos have been using water abstractly for centuries haven't they?

[mashman]

Hahahahahaha, what? No.

I used the wheel example, to illustrate that Maori were no where near technologically advanced enough to harness water, in anything but a bucket.

I have to go a bit off topic and point out my surprise at this too. Maori are descended from asia somewhere aren't they? Those little zipper head mofos have been using water abstractly for centuries haven't they?

heh... my point was that knowledge travels with expanding borders. Once upon a time 1 person, perhaps two, discovered the wheel, 1 person invented a combustion engine and some sad fucker built a frame. The knowledge of thos 4/5/6 people was shared and now the zipper head mofos (:rofl:) have something to do with the wheels, IL4 components and frame. Just because a "civilisation" doesn't have a piece of knowledge at any given point time does not mean that they can't learn it and again, like the zipper head mofos, improve upon what has gone before.

[Banditbandit]

And there's your answer, you embrace these eurocentric ideals when there's money in it for you; and claim they have wronged you, well when there is money/property in it for you too. Seems like the european way of life is the way to go, lucky we came over an hooked you guys up with it right?

Jeez .. whitey is so dumb they can't spot a wind up ....

[Banditbandit]

Being a sales-type person, I've always strongly believed that if you give something away for free, it isn't valued by the recipient.

It's about time we rectified that and levied a technology licencing fee on Iwi to allow continued use of all the stuff that the white man brought and I'm sorry, but no more motorcycling for you, until you've paid your "Maori miles". It's
not so bad though, if you join Dirt Division, you're only paying for the wheels and engine component and you don't need to stump up for the sealed-road bit.

Now, I just need to go away and calculate what you owe per-word for the written alphabet.

Yeah - ok let's all pay for a technology fee for technology that we did not deliver ... let me see New Zealand did not develop

TV
Radio
DVD
Computers
Cars
Motorcycles
Electric Ovens - In fact Electricity
Beds
Houses
Cheese and butter making processes


New Zealand did develop:
Electric fences
Nuclear power (we split the atom)

So .. we owe the world an awful lot of money in technology fees (for more than is on the list) and the rest of the world owes us stuff all in comparison ..

Why tax one group in this country for things they did not develop and not tax another group for things they did not develop?

[Banditbandit]

It's getting a bit "us and them" again. People don't try to see past that, and it makes discussion moot.

I am truly interested to hear a compelling argument for the Maori positive here.

As an aside, can someone tell me how a tribe owns lambton quay in Wellington? I thought that shit was under water before the White devil got here.

And you drop into the "them and us" mode as uch as trhe rest of us ... This is a tricky one ... human beings tend to do that al the time .. I'm convijced its biological . anyway ... the problem with that si that if we attempt a "we" then often it is a Pākehā idea of what that we means, as opposed to a Māori idea of what the "we" means ...


How is it ever not though? Who gets the money, they do; who pays for it, we do. I mean FFS, my ancestors were scottish or some shit, those brawlers didn't sign no treaty...

Bwhahaha .. my ancetors are Māori, Irish and Scottish .. all fought the English. The Highland clearances forced most people off their land and into the Southern Hemisphere (or ther Americas) .. and then they pushed Māori off their land here ..

How come when you all came here you forgot the lessons the English had taught us all and used Sassenach tactics against the people here ... just like the English in Ireland and Scotland ... Your Masters in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street trained you all very well after the defeats at Cullodon and Vinegar Hill and Tara.

:brick: Mystical Gods, tribes, tribal leaders, "sacred" places this is still 2012 were talking about? Why are people still trying to drag old ground up from the 1800´s? How many worldwide wars and conflicts have we had since then?

Jeez mate ... only Pākehā New Zealanders have memories that short. The Irish rebellion remembers Oliver Cromwell ... the argument in the Balkans (Serbs and Croatas et al) is the left-overs of an Ottoman invasion (Muslims) 400 years ago ... The Scottish Nationalist Song FLower of Scotland remembers William Wallace (him portrayed in the movie Braveheart) ...

How come the rest of the world gets to rememebr - but we can't? We hold in our iwi memories the names of the people who arrived here on their waka (and the ones who were here before the wakas) and why they left the pacific islands to come here ... Most Pākehā New Zealanders can't even remember the names of the boats that brought their people here less than 200 years ago ... let alone where abouts (specifically) they came from and why ...

[Banditbandit]

Now, I just need to go away and calculate what you owe per-word for the written alphabet.

Oh love it!!!! Just noticed this comment!!!! :rofl: :rofl:

You do realise that most of our alphabet and most of our numbering system come from Arabic countries?

I wonder how much the Christian Western World owes the Muslim Middle East for the alphabet and numbers !!!!!

[MisterD]

Why tax one group in this country for things they did not develop and not tax another group for things they did not develop?

Missing the point as usual. European settlers brought with them technology, and cultural advancements like writing and hey, the rule of law. Without the stuff that those settlers brought, and gave for free, we wouldn't have the country we have and Maori would still be subsistence farmers and cannibals.

This "everything bad is whitey's fault, so give me $$$" bollocks has to end.

[Banditbandit]

Missing the point as usual. European settlers brought with them technology, and cultural advancements like writing and hey, the rule of law. Without the stuff that those settlers brought, and gave for free, we wouldn't have the country we have and Maori would still be subsistence farmers and cannibals.

This "everything bad is whitey's fault, so give me $$$" bollocks has to end.

I get the point - I would argue that the European settlers brought with them technology that they had not developed - but had reciecved free from the people who did develop them (writing is a good example - certainly came from the Golden Triangle area - now Iraq/Iran .. what was Mesopotamia.)

So if we have to pay for it because we use it but did not create it, recieved it free, then why should that argument not apply to the Settlers - who did not develop it but received it free from the people who did develop it.

The rule of law? Shit, did we want that? Did we ask for that? We had our own laws - you dumped them on us ... you can take them back any time you want and let us have our own laws back ...

And why do you think we would still be subsistance farmers. There are plenty of other coutries still run by the people who owned them and were not colonized who are not stuck in the ways of 200 or 300 years ago, who are not still "running around in grass skirts".

http://m.upall.co/g/1/funny-ecards-3.png

[bogan]

Jeez .. whitey is so dumb they can't spot a wind up ....

A lot of truths are hidden in 'wind-up', the fact that you avoid answering the question seriously says that answer was likely a truth you didn't want to admit.


I get the point - I would argue that the European settlers brought with them technology that they had not developed - but had reciecved free from the people who did develop them (writing is a good example - certainly came from the Golden Triangle area - now Iraq/Iran .. what was Mesopotamia.)

Doesn't matter where it originated, European settlers were in possession of it. And apparently the way to go is to charge people for what you used to have possession of...

[oldrider]

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1130400832]The rule of law? Shit, did we want that? Did we ask for that? We had our own laws - you dumped them on us ... you can take them back any time you want and let us have our own laws back ...[QUOTE]

Really! Most of the Maori leaders of the day opted for the British (Westminster) law because of the lack of agreement among their own separate communities! (Iwi)

To say it was forced upon them is rubbish and your comments suggests that they (the chiefs) didn't know what they were doing also suggests that they were stupid, far from it!

[MisterD]

I get the point - I would argue that the European settlers brought with them technology that they had not developed -

Metal working? The agricultural and industrial revolutions were specifically British. By Maori logic, if Len Brown wants to build his rail loop I'm owed a divvy because G&R Stephenson are my direct ancestors.



So if we have to pay for it because we use it but did not create it, recieved it free, then why should that argument not apply to the Settlers - who did not develop it but received it free from the people who did develop it.

Why should we pay you for generating power off a river you happened to live next door to? Compensation for something that prevents you continuing to use the river as you used to, fair enough, clipping the ticket for no reason? F-off.


The rule of law? Shit, did we want that? Did we ask for that? We had our own laws - you dumped them on us ... you can take them back any time you want and let us have our own laws back ...

Well yes, they evidence is you wanted *exactly* that when you signed the treaty.



And why do you think we would still be subsistance farmers. There are plenty of other coutries still run by the people who owned them and were not colonized who are not stuck in the ways of 200 or 300 years ago, who are not still "running around in grass skirts".

To make technological advances, you typically have to have enough free time away from basic survival needs to work on them. I don't see much evidence that that was the case, even if you weren't quite as badly off in that regard as Aussie's "indigenous".

[Banditbandit]

Really! Most of the Maori leaders of the day opted for the British (Westminster) law because of the lack of agreement among their own separate communities! (Iwi)

To say it was forced upon them is rubbish and your comments suggests that they (the chiefs) didn't know what they were doing also suggests that they were stupid, far from it!

There is a great debate over what happened 20 years ago and what each side expected. In our own country we expected to maintain our laws - The Treaty gave us Tino Rangatiratanga - self-rule. The European settlers had the same privilege - self-rule. Only the settlers set up a Governmetn and expected to rule us as well as themselves !!!

And the characterization of "Iwi" as "communities" is a colonizing approach. A better interpretation of "iwi" is "nation". The fundamental definition of a nation is a group of people with a defined geographical area, who enforce their laws within that boundary, and proect that bounded area from invasion . That certainly applies to Iwi, each of which had an area of land that was defended and had laws which applied within that boundary ..

Our ancestors were translating "iwi" as "nation" during the 1800s . it was the settlers who did not want to recognise that ...

[bogan]

There is a great debate over what haoppened 20 years ago and what each side expected. In our own country we expected to maintain our laws - The Treaty gave us Tino Rangatiratanga - self-rule. The European settlers had the same privilege - self-rule. Only the settlers set up a Governmetn and expected to rule us as well as themselves !!!

So with two sets of different self-rule, who rules those of mixed blood? Or can they pick and choose laws from each side? Or does one group have to go stand in a river they own to be under their juristiction?

[Drew]

And you drop into the "them and us" mode as uch as trhe rest of us ... This is a tricky one ... human beings tend to do that al the time .. I'm convijced its biological . anyway ... the problem with that si that if we attempt a "we" then often it is a Pākehā idea of what that we means, as opposed to a Māori idea of what the "we" means ...



Bwhahaha .. my ancetors are Māori, Irish and Scottish .. all fought the English. The Highland clearances forced most people off their land and into the Southern Hemisphere (or ther Americas) .. and then they pushed Māori off their land here ..

How come when you all came here you forgot the lessons the English had taught us all and used Sassenach tactics against the people here ... just like the English in Ireland and Scotland ... Your Masters in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street trained you all very well after the defeats at Cullodon and Vinegar Hill and Tara.


Jeez mate ... only Pākehā New Zealanders have memories that short. The Irish rebellion remembers Oliver Cromwell ... the argument in the Balkans (Serbs and Croatas et al) is the left-overs of an Ottoman invasion (Muslims) 400 years ago ... The Scottish Nationalist Song FLower of Scotland remembers William Wallace (him portrayed in the movie Braveheart) ...

How come the rest of the world gets to rememebr - but we can't? We hold in our iwi memories the names of the people who arrived here on their waka (and the ones who were here before the wakas) and why they left the pacific islands to come here ... Most Pākehā New Zealanders can't even remember the names of the boats that brought their people here less than 200 years ago ... let alone where abouts (specifically) they came from and why ...That's it, I'm 'us', you're 'them'! Us sounds friendlier I reckon:cool:

I want you to prove that you remember the names of waka and man who first came here. And then I want you prove you remember correctly. Because if I say a name to a guys, and that carries on to three hundred people, I bet you a million dollars the name that gets back to me in no way resembles the original.

Based on that and the legal system, Maori have no claim to anything not specifically mentioned in the treaty as belonging to a chief of one tribe or another.

[Banditbandit]

A lot of truths are hidden in 'wind-up', the fact that you avoid answering the question seriously says that answer was likely a truth you didn't want to admit.




And what truth would that be? Pākehā say that Māori are only in it for the money ... did we ever say that? Pākehā have made money important in this world - if we want to help our people with better education, better access to health services, improved quality of life, then we need your commodity in your world ... so we can buy what we need to build our world ...


Metal working? The agricultural and industrial revolutions were specifically British. By Maori logic, if Len Brown wants to build his rail loop I'm owed a divvy because G&R Stephenson are my direct ancestors.




No, sorry - that was a Pākehā suggestion ... (and under that Pākehā suggestion, yes you would be owed money) ... I just took the Pākehā argument a little further - along it's logical path (Māori logical path?) and clearly Pākehā don't like where their own suggestion might lead ...

Interesting twist - a Pākehā suggestion suddenly becomes Māori logic ???

[Banditbandit]

That's it, I'm 'us', you're 'them'! Us sounds friendlier I reckon:cool:

I want you to prove that you remember the names of waka and man who first came here. And then I want you prove you remember correctly. Because if I say a name to a guys, and that carries on to three hundred people, I bet you a million dollars the name that gets back to me in no way resembles the original.

Who's idea of "proof"? Western-dreived epistemologies or Māori/Indigenous empistemologies? And if you say western epistemologies, then I might just ask you if you mean those of Galileo, Popper or Feyerabend ... "Proof" is never culture-free!!!


Based on that and the legal system, Maori have no claim to anything not specifically mentioned in the treaty as belonging to a chief of one tribe or another.

Based on our legal system, our "Government" has no legitimacy ... so let's just leave that asside. But I'm not that strong on the treaty personally. I never use it in arguments, I rarely refer to it. It does not need a treaty to treat people ethically and with dignity and respect ... I'd rather argue ethics, dignity and respect than treaty ...

[Drew]

Who's idea of "proof"? Western-dreived epistemologies or Māori/Indigenous empistemologies? And if you say western epistemologies, then I might just ask you if you mean those of Galileo, Popper or Feyerabend ... "Proof" is never culture-free!!!



Based on our legal system, our "Government" has no legitimacy ... so let's just leave that asside. But I'm not that strong on the treaty personally. I never use it in arguments, I rarely refer to it. It does not need a treaty to treat people ethically and with dignity and respect ... I'd rather argue ethics, dignity and respect than treaty ...
Pick any proof you fancy. You're clearly much better educated than I am, so I'm glad you bring up the ethical side of things.

Ethics is borderline philosophy, so I'm fucked here too, but I can at least try.

The greatest harm to came from this, would be total segregation, no? So if at some point this whole thing doesn't just get put to bed and forgotten, no one has the moral high ground.

I have gone straight to the end of the argument, because typing on an iPhone is fuckin hard!

[oldrider]

There is a great debate over what happened 20 years ago and what each side expected. In our own country we expected to maintain our laws - The Treaty gave us Tino Rangatiratanga - self-rule. The European settlers had the same privilege - self-rule. Only the settlers set up a Governmetn and expected to rule us as well as themselves !!!

And the characterization of "Iwi" as "communities" is a colonizing approach. A better interpretation of "iwi" is "nation". The fundamental definition of a nation is a group of people with a defined geographical area, who enforce their laws within that boundary, and proect that bounded area from invasion . That certainly applies to Iwi, each of which had an area of land that was defended and had laws which applied within that boundary ..

Our ancestors were translating "iwi" as "nation" during the 1800s . it was the settlers who did not want to recognise that ...

I think you illustrate why Maori are such gifted musicians, they can take an established tune and rearrange the score to suit themselves and play it any way they like!

The problems we are facing right now are (IMHO) because after the "agreement" was struck Maori stepped back and have been at the back grumbling amongst themselves ever since!

Today they are stepping up to the plate and participating in the politics of the nation and the silent majority are not used to that!

There will be some consternation and fear generated until the nation settles down again into a new paradigm!

It will be difficult enough without all the bullshit but I suppose that is just the way it is and the way it will be but it will continue if we are to succeed as a nation!

[Drew]

Found a card up my sleeve, might be an ace, might be a 2.

Based on our legal system, the government is perfectly legitimate by the way. Precedent has been set now, 200 years of it. Not by the Maori you say? Wrong, because they have taken things to court, within the governmental regime we have.

If any tribe has abstained approaching the treaty claims place we have, they're the only ones who can just say "fuck you honky", and take something back.

[Banditbandit]

I think you illustrate why Maori are such gifted musicians, they can take an established tune and rearrange the score to suit themselves and play it any way they like!

An estasblished tune? Yes - the dominant culture wrote its own tune - we don't always agree with that tune ... and we never have. But then, the victors always get to write their version of history ...


The problems we are facing right now are (IMHO) because after the "agreement" was struck Maori stepped back and have been at the back grumbling amongst themselves ever since!

Today they are stepping up to the plate and participating in the politics of the nation and the silent majority are not used to that!

There will be some consternation and fear generated until the nation settles down again into a new paradigm!

It will be difficult enough without all the bullshit but I suppose that is just the way it is and the way it will be but it will continue if we are to succeed as a nation!

Yes - that's about it ... and we have been trying to estabish a new paradigm for about 200 years ...

[Drew]

Yes - that's about it ... and we have been trying to estabish a new paradigm for about 200 years ...Really? Doesn't ring true with me. The Maori didn't even know they were getting fucked for quite some time after penetration as far as I can see.

[Banditbandit]

Really? Doesn't ring true with me. The Maori didn't even know they were getting fucked for quite some time after penetration as far as I can see.

Bwhahaha ... Hone Heke attacked Kororareka and cut down the flag pole on Maiki Hil just four years after the treaty was signed .. we knew we were getting screwed over ... despite protests, nothing happened .. and in four years Hone's patience wore out ...

How little of our history history of Aotearoa/New Zealand) people here actually know ..

[CookMySock]

A thing that is legally in your custody is your property. It cannot be wrested from you - that is a criminal act, but you may be persuaded to hand it over, or you may consent to the jurisdiction of some court to make a decision regarding the matter - but if you DO consent, then you are COMPELLED to accept this outcome. There's a lesson there!

[Banditbandit]

A thing that is legally in your custody is your property. It cannot be wrested from you - that is a criminal act, but you may be persuaded to hand it over, or you may consent to the jurisdiction of some court to make a decision regarding the matter - but if you DO consent, then you are COMPELLED to accept this outcome. There's a lesson there!

Yes - definitely a lesson. Which one do you mean and for whom?

[Maha]

Bwhahaha ... Hone Heke attacked Kororareka and cut down the flag pole on Maiki Hil just four years after the treaty was signed .. we knew we were getting screwed over ... despite protests, nothing happened .. and in four years Hone's patience wore out ...

How little of our history history of Aotearoa/New Zealand) people here actually know ..

Who is this ''we'' of which you speak...surely you mean ''early maori'' (of which you are not) ..if it were to be put into context?

Mike Smith attacked a tree on a hill .... a large percentage of people (of every race and creed) living in NZ at the time thought he was a cunt....and they were right.
I am only guessing here, but I would imagine the same was thought of Hone Heke at the time.

[bogan]

And what truth would that be? Pākehā say that Māori are only in it for the money ... did we ever say that? Pākehā have made money important in this world - if we want to help our people with better education, better access to health services, improved quality of life, then we need your commodity in your world ... so we can buy what we need to build our world ...

Pākehā have made more than money important in this world, they've also made education, healthcare, and quality of life important. The claims would be taken much more seriously if they were based in and around the reality of the situation, not some self delusional :baby: world view.

[Matariki]

Hahahahahaha, what? No.

I used the wheel example, to illustrate that Maori were no where near technologically advanced enough to harness water, in anything but a bucket.

I have to go a bit off topic and point out my surprise at this too. Maori are descended from asia somewhere aren't they? Those little zipper head mofos have been using water abstractly for centuries haven't they?

Well... to be fair, yes our (for those of Maori descent) ancestors were still at the tribal stage, so they were about a thousand or so years behind in terms of technology before the arrival of pakeha. But that doesn't mean that they were a thousand years behind in intelligence. There is a debate about where they came from, there is good evidence to state that the Maori as we know them today, could of found their origins in both South America and South East Asia. Though the general Polynesian DNA profile fits the South East Asian DNA profile best.

http://lens.auckland.ac.nz/images/3/31/Pacific_Migration_Seminar_Paper.pdf

[imdying]

Meh... none of this really bothers me much... I'm at the top of the pile, and whilst Maori like Banditbandit keep on with this sort of crap, I'll be doing my best to make sure they stay there. Black? Want a job working for me? Better apply elsewhere. Black? Don't want to get arrested, back luck. Black? Don't want to get fucked over by mighty whitey's IRD, heh, surprise! It's too easy...

[Matariki]

Missing the point as usual. European settlers brought with them technology, and cultural advancements like writing and hey, the rule of law. Without the stuff that those settlers brought, and gave for free, we wouldn't have the country we have and Maori would still be subsistence farmers and cannibals.

This "everything bad is whitey's fault, so give me $$$" bollocks has to end.

:killingme :lol:

The Maori had technology and cultral skills that they brought over. In fact they taught some of these skills to the European settlers such as how to build farms on wetland, how to harvest native foods (including fish), prepare medicinal ingredients, and build houses from native materials that the Europeans weren't familiar with.

The Maori had their own writing system in the form of images (what do you think those cravings and illustrations at the Maraes are all about? And the Ta Moko?) the missionaries romanized Te Reo so it was more accessible.

The Maori had law in the form of Tikanga.

The settlers relied on the local Maori people for protection against other tribes, and their knowledge of the land. And the settlers possessions weren't given away for free, they usually given in exchange for a service or for the purchase of land.

The country of New Zealand came to be as we know it due to the interest that France was having in New Zealand, there was a race between England and France to claim New Zealand as their own and establish a government here. And no not all Maori engaged in cannibalism, it was extremely rare and was frowned down strongly upon (its considered to be the greatest insult of them all).

[imdying]

The Maori had technology and cultral skills that they brought over. In fact they taught some of these skills to the European settlers such as how to build farms on wetland, how to harvest native foods (including fish), prepare medicinal ingredients, and build houses from native materials that the Europeans weren't familiar with.What a load of shite... the white man also brought with him intelligence; none of the things you've listed would've slowed them down in the slightest, none of those things they needed from Maori... if they'd set about shooting all the Maori, they'd still be here happily farming anything they like, fishing for anything they like.


The Maori had their own writing system in the form of images (what do you think those cravings and illustrations at the Maraes are all about? And the Ta Moko?) the missionaries romanized Te Reo so it was more accessible.Ahahahaahahahaha..... yeah symbology... big fucking deal... that's a million miles away from literacy.


The Maori had law in the form of Tikanga.Primitive ape crap again.


The settlers relied on the local Maori people for protection against other tribes, and their knowledge of the land.Only because they weren't allowed to genocide them as they should've done. Maori should be well grateful for the fate of timing there.


no not all Maori engaged in cannibalism, it was extremely rare and was frowned down strongly upon (its considered to be the greatest insult of them all).More Maori lies, more rewriting the tune to suit the circumstances.

Really, that's one of the biggest problems here... Maori are not only backwards primitive apes, they're also a bunch of liars.

[oneofsix]

What a load of shite... the white man also brought with him intelligence; none of the things you've listed would've slowed them down in the slightest, none of those things they needed from Maori... if they'd set about shooting all the Maori, they'd still be here happily farming anything they like, fishing for anything they like.

Ahahahaahahahaha..... yeah symbology... big fucking deal... that's a million miles away from literacy.

Primitive ape crap again.

Only because they weren't allowed to genocide them as they should've done. Maori should be well grateful for the fate of timing there.

More Maori lies, more rewriting the tune to suit the circumstances.

Really, that's one of the biggest problems here... Maori are not only backwards primitive apes, they're also a bunch of liars.

Hate to have to agree with you. This whitewashing of Maori history only serves them badly, poor dumb duped maori - like fuck. As for the white settlers using the local maori tribes to protect them it was actually the other way round with the tribes using the musket armed whites to protect them from raids and being slaves or protein for the neighbouring tribes. The Maori were as smart as the whites and they were using sometimes abusing each other.

[MisterD]

The Maori had law in the form of Tikanga.

You don't actually understand what "the rule of law" means do you? A major driver for the signing of the Treaty was tribes wanting British law to protect them from other tribes...

[Drew]

There will be name calling and abuse here soon. Was a good thread for longer than most of this vein.

[imdying]

Drew, much like New Zealand, all was fine until the niggers started getting uppity.

[Drew]

Drew, much like New Zealand, all was fine until the niggers started getting uppity.I hear ya man.

I'm all for women having the vote, but I reckon a line shoulda been drawn somewhere!

[Brett]

Water is an impossible one to 'own' due to the nature of it's creation/use. water is sucked up and carried by the winds from all sorts of places - some a hell of a long way away from NZ. My body is made up of 60% water - do they own that too? What about the water in the air as natural humidity?

[oldrider]

Ian Wishart's "The Great Divide" The story of New Zealand and it's treaty is worth a read if only for another "reasoned" perspective!

Christianity (for all it's ills) helped Maori to replace the law of "utu" (one of their major flawed practices) with forgiveness and respect!

Maori preferred the idea of building the future with Queen Victoria and England, in preference to French who were banging loudly on their front door at that same time!

To suggest that life for Maori was at that time (and previously) "Utopian" is the biggest load of bullshit that could ever be propagated!

Life for everyone out here was bloody hard and they relied upon each other for their survival.

The division between Maori who signed the treaty and those who did not (the smaller group) still rages today and those who did not are making the most noise currently!

It is important that Pakeha (non Maori) learn and understand what those differences are and how ultimately it will effect them if they don't!

[Brett]

People get lost in the bush in NZ and if not found after three days they seem to start looking for a body.
Fuck all to eat. They used to eat bracken fern roots - like pigs. Full of silica and would grind out their teeth.

That's 'cause most people today have lost bush craft skills. There is plenty to eat if you know where to find it etc. NZ is a MUCH easier place to survive in than many other places. You're never more than a few days walk from an ocean and oceans=food baskets. Nevermind all the food that can be found around rivers and streams etc. Try that shit in the outback of Australia or the high veldt of South Africa. Early Maori must have been tripping up over food on their way to their daily potty break.

[Banditbandit]

What a load of shite... the white man also brought with him intelligence;


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That was worth a laugh . thank you ... the rest was just an ignorant racist rant !!!

[imdying]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That was worth a laugh . thank you ... the rest was just an ignorant racist rant !!!

Jeez .. niggers is so dumb they can't spot a wind up ....

[short-circuit]

Christianity (for all it's ills) helped Maori to replace the law of "utu" (one of their major flawed practices) with forgiveness and respect!


Yeah just like all those lovely christian southern states in the US that advocate the death penalty

[Drew]

Yeah just like all those lovely christian southern states in the US that advocate the death penaltyYou try to be an idiot aye?

He did say "for all Christianities ills".

[Matariki]

What a load of shite... the white man also brought with him intelligence; none of the things you've listed would've slowed them down in the slightest, none of those things they needed from Maori... if they'd set about shooting all the Maori, they'd still be here happily farming anything they like, fishing for anything they like.

Ahahahaahahahaha..... yeah symbology... big fucking deal... that's a million miles away from literacy.

Primitive ape crap again.

Only because they weren't allowed to genocide them as they should've done. Maori should be well grateful for the fate of timing there.

More Maori lies, more rewriting the tune to suit the circumstances.

Really, that's one of the biggest problems here... Maori are not only backwards primitive apes, they're also a bunch of liars.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv3kymmsto1qfu4tho1_500.png

[imdying]

Don't worry sweetie, Banditbandit got the point... you go back to weaving flax baskets or baking that horrible bread, or whatever it is your man says you should be doing...

[Drew]

baking that horrible breadSteady on there man. That horrible bread is nice when fried in a good old fashioned Maori skillet. Wait...Nevermind.

The name calling bit of a thread is usually my favourite, what's wrong with me?

[Drew]

Yes I know what the rule of law is. I misread the statement as 'the Maori didn't have law' as I was in rush to go somewhere I had to make a quick post.
Yes I also know that the end of Maori in-fighting was on the reasons why the treaty was signed.We make allowances for you. Maari and got six toes on each foot, (being from Greytown), you really got dealt quite a hand indeed!

[Brett]

You try to be an idiot aye?

He did say "for all Christianities ills".

I think he hit his head a few too many times. Or smoked too much weed.

[mashman]

What a load of shite... the white man also brought with him intelligence;

Utter boollocks. They brought knowledge and proved. Maori are now using their intelligence to "claim" part of what whitey once considered to be theirs. Fuckin hilarious really. Even more funny when you consider that whitey mcwhite have given them the "tools" to fight their particular corner.

[Matariki]

Jeez .. niggers is so dumb they can't spot a wind up ....

http://www.troll.me/images/xzibit-funyuns/at-first-i-was-like-but-then-i-was-like.jpg

[Matariki]

We make allowances for you. Maari and got six toes on each foot, (being from Greytown), you really got dealt quite a hand indeed!

Cool story bro

[Matariki]

Don't worry sweetie, Banditbandit got the point... you go back to weaving flax baskets or baking that horrible bread, or whatever it is your man says you should be doing...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsmoykOcbd1qfu4tho1_400.gif

[FJRider]

As for what you posted, do you have links or anything that I can have a look at as I'm unfamiliar with the statements (I don't know whether they're your own, or if they're quoted.)

When you say 'Maori' are you referring to everyone who is ethnically Maori, or the Maori party, or an Iwi or Hapu? I'm Maori and I know what I want, some ibuprofen because this whole current political situation is giving me a headache.

The two quotes were from the Herald. (Newspapers always lie eh ..) and they also believe 90 % of Maori are against the asset sales Prior to a Waitangi Tribunal decision on the matter.
Obviously the Maori Party are in agreement with the asset sales ... if they get a share of the profit arising from the sale .... in perpetuity. (and a "nice little earner " that would be)
The Nationalisation of the New Zealand waterways was for the protection of those waterways, and for the benefit and use of all New Zealander's. (This did not mean free Electricity, but available Electricity)
The SOE sale in itself ... doesn't seem to be the issue. The recognition of Maori rights to the water IS. It sets a legal precedent of all iwi in their respective tribal areas ... to their water rights. Any such award of shares under the "Customary Rights" label opens the door to a myriad of similar claims from other iwi for their waterways.
This is not only about only SOE sales ... but could be about access to ... and profit from , (as of right) under their "Customary Rights". By profit I ... mean possibly charging the public/business's a fee, for use of and access to ... those waterways. (Lakes AND rivers)

If shares ARE granted ... A right royal can of worms will be opened ...


From the Maori Party web-site. Quoting Te Ururoa Flavell ...

The Māori Party is continuing to put pressure on the government to front up on the issue of consultation on shares plus, after raising questions in the house on whether or not the Crown was meeting its obligations to consult in good faith with Iwi.

Te Ururoa Flavell, Māori Party MP for Waiariki said "we are extremely concerned at the way the Crown has treated this issue of consultation. They tell our hapu and iwi that they intend to consult in good faith, and yet their actions do not reflect this."

"The Crown have deliberately gone into these hui with a pre-determined outcome, they have used dismissive and derogatory language when referring to our peoples aspirations, and they have deliberately used divisive tactics to move through their asset sales agenda."

Mr Flavell said "we need to remember that unity of purpose is not the same as unity of voice. Each hapū and iwi has rangatiratanga in their own rohe, and we absolutely support the rights of iwi to continue to pursue their rights in respect of water - no matter where those pathways may take them."

"Our iwi have shown great commitment to advancing shared rights in water by coming together, meeting, and agreeing to support one another and stand shoulder to shoulder. This does not mean they have to each sing the same tune."

"That's why a national framework for addressing water rights is so critical. We need a protocol established which recognises the many avenues that iwi choose to take to have their issues addressed, whether it be through negotiation, participation in the land and water forum, through direct engagement or other."

Mr Flavell said "we can work in a unified way while still expressing our own rangatiratanga and pursuing our distinct rights in each awa and waterway."

[Winston001]

Bwhahaha .. my ancetors are Māori, Irish and Scottish .. all fought the English. The Highland clearances forced most people off their land and into the Southern Hemisphere (or ther Americas) ...

How come when you all came here you forgot the lessons the English had taught us all and used Sassenach tactics against the people here ... just like the English in Ireland and Scotland ...

... The Scottish Nationalist Song FLower of Scotland remembers William Wallace (him portrayed in the movie Braveheart) ...



Well said. Strange as it might sound I'm still pissed off at what the English did to the Scots 400 years ago. And I'm appalled at what Cromwell did to the Irish 350 years ago. These things are not forgotten or forgiven so its not surprising Maori bear grudges for only 150 years.

[jonbuoy]

Well said. Strange as it might sound I'm still pissed off at what the English did to the Scots 400 years ago. And I'm appalled at what Cromwell did to the Irish 350 years ago. These things are not forgotten or forgiven so its not surprising Maori bear grudges for only 150 years.

Ridiculous, pissed of at who?? A race of people that dont even exist anymore. 350-400 years ago get real. No better than football louts who still do cringy hitler salutes at Germans who werent even born in second world war or islamic fundamentalists still pissed off over the crusades.

[oldrider]

United States of America? ..... Larger scale and it took a while, a few wars and lots of dead people but hey, there they are!

United Iwi of Aotearoa? .... There's a parallel there I suppose if you look close enough and historically Maori were really into war and killing each other!

Like the man in the TV cheese add says, "good things take time" but then again, what version of events is "good" for New Zealand?

Most New Zealand citizens belong in the mushroom factory when it comes to our own history!

That's why some self interest groups are rewriting it to suit themselves and appear to be getting away with it! :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

United States of America? ..... Larger scale and it took a while, a few wars and lots of dead people but hey, there they are!

Not sure what you are getting at here ...?????



United Iwi of Aotearoa? .... There's a parallel there I suppose if you look close enough and historically Maori were really into war and killing each other!

There's good evidence that the people who signed the Declaration of Independence at Waitangi in 1835 did have a United Iwi of Aotearoa in mind. They certainly knew the Ameican model ... buit it would probably have been a Unitd States of New Zealand .. the declaration is the first international legal documetn that uses the name Nui Tirini (New Zealand) for this countrry - and it is a Māori document ...

And HUMAN BEINGS are really into war and killing each other - not an exclusive Māori thing ... Māori did not declare war in Afghanistan .. that was a white people's war .. we just supply the cannon fodder and the VC winners ..


Like the man in the TV cheese add says, "good things take time" but then again, what version of events is "good" for New Zealand?

Our version of course ..


Most New Zealand citizens belong in the mushroom factory when it comes to our own history!

Agree with you there ...


That's why some self interest groups are rewriting it to suit themselves and appear to be getting away with it! :facepalm:

Maybe that's because what was written in the first place was just plain wrong !!!

But we all rewrite history .. history is the preserve of the victors .. and very soon that will be the brown races of this country, not the white races .. because we are out-breeding you ...

[oneofsix]

But we all rewrite history .. history is the preserve of the victors .. and very soon that will be the brown races of this country, not the white races .. because we are out-breeding you ...

Paula is already working on a solution for that, coupled with the changes to the school system to ensure you can't write.

[Banditbandit]

Paula is already working on a solution for that, coupled with the changes to the school system to ensure you can't write.

Bwhahahaha .. bling your way ... but I'm a product of the old school system ... I learnt to write in the 1960s ... (Yeah .. I'm old .... )

[oneofsix]

Bwhahahaha .. bling your way ... but I'm a product of the old school system ... I learnt to write in the 1960s ... (Yeah .. I'm old .... )

yeah same and I can thank my stay at home mummy for that, not one of the friggin teachers what wanted to give up on a slight dyslexic kid, they were happy just to call it bad spelling.

[Drew]

Percentage of populous, Maori outnumber whitey in the low socioeconomic. Where the most breeding happens. But I reckon white trash mother fuckers like me and mine still hold the greater number.

Hell, some of us bastards are even muddying up your gene pool too. Old school take over that shit!

On a serious note though, Maori are called indigenous here, but their not. How does that work?

[MisterD]

On a serious note though, Maori are called indigenous here, but their not. How does that work?

Maori are "indigenous" because their culture evolved to be distinct from other pacific cultures in New Zealand, it doesn't matter that the people themselves came by canoe fairly recently by global standards. Of course there's a strong argument under that definition that "Pakeha" are also indigenous, since their culture is completely distinct from any European culture their ancestors left...and we're back to "finders keepers".