Has anyone got solar panels on their roof?

[steve_t]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

[superman]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

Have they started plans where the energy companies pay you for any excess that goes back out to the grid? Or are they still isolated systems?

We've just got an isolated water heating solar panel.

[Pwalo]

I'd suggest that you look at the cost and life span of the solar panels. These haven't been too flash in the past.

My understanding is that you can feed back into the power grid but you will need to meet generation standards so that you don't upset phasing etc. Your lines company should be able to give some info on this.

[avgas]

Have they started plans where the energy companies pay you for any excess that goes back out to the grid? Or are they still isolated systems?

We've just got an isolated water heating solar panel.
Grid connected systems feed back into the grid and you get credited for the power.

I don't have a system......yet........need to buy a house first. But you have to remember that grid connected systems are really expensive. Last quote I got roughly worked out was about $3000 kW (installed). Where as a battery system is less than half that.
Problem is none of the cheap grid connected inverters are 230v, most are 110V AC.

[steve_t]

Have they started plans where the energy companies pay you for any excess that goes back out to the grid? Or are they still isolated systems?

We've just got an isolated water heating solar panel.

Yeah, 37c per kWh I think thru Meridian

[imdying]

I'd suggest that you look at the cost and life span of the solar panels. These haven't been too flash in the past.Definitely worth keeping an eye on... as their dev state is relatively infantile the jumps they've been making in the last few years have been awesome... increases in efficiency of 50% in foul swoop. IIRC earlier this year they finally broken even against power created from fossil fuels.

Two things I believe are critical to the survival of the human race... Solar power (the sun has all the energy we could ever possibly want) and getting the hell of this rock (because eventually that lovely sun is going to start to get bigger and we'll all be BBQ'd).

[steve_t]

I'd suggest that you look at the cost and life span of the solar panels. These haven't been too flash in the past.

My understanding is that you can feed back into the power grid but you will need to meet generation standards so that you don't upset phasing etc. Your lines company should be able to give some info on this.

From what I understand, the panels are warrantied for 10 years but expected to last at least 25. I'll check. Thanks for the heads up too as I notice there are many different types of panels and I don't wanna get cheap shitty ones

[Pwalo]

From what I understand, the panels are warrantied for 10 years but expected to last at least 25. I'll check. Thanks for the heads up too as I notice there are many different types of panels and I don't wanna get cheap shitty ones

Good idea. Just remember that a ten year warranty is b all use if the manufacturer isn't around after ten years. I have never heard of solar panels being effecient/useable after ten years, and I don't know who's suggesting that they are any where near the effeciency of fossil fuels.

NZ is also a pretty harsh enviroment for panels.

[paturoa]

There are a bunch of youtube vids on making your own for a fraction of the cost of the commercial pre-built panels. Half of them are loonie / commies who prob belong to the "occupy" groups. Some are a good read, but the raw cells are not avail to buy in unzud like in the videos.

The other cost to consider is the battery life and as you go up power the bat costs go up too!

[jim.cox]

I have a access to a couple of bachs with solar systems. Only small, used for lighting and water pumps, they work well.

Jaycar have some very good pricing on panels and led lights

[steve_t]

There are a bunch of youtube vids on making your own for a fraction of the cost of the commercial pre-built panels. Half of them are loonie / commies who prob belong to the "occupy" groups. Some are a good read, but the raw cells are not avail to buy in unzud like in the videos.

The other cost to consider is the battery life and as you go up power the bat costs go up too!

Haha... I know. I was wondering if it was just for the hippies but an opportunity arose and I decided to go for it, especially given the constantly rising price of electricity. I read the other day that Genesis made $90m net profit and thinks it's not enough so will be raising prices shortly

Oh, and grid tied systems don't use any batteries

[SPman]

We've had a 1.5 Kw system for 2 1/2 years. Cost us $1800 installed (thank you Aus gov subsidies) and we have a 40c feed in tarriff. Our power bills have plummeted - you also tend to become more aware of power usage as well when you do things like this - turning things off, instead of leaving them on standby, etc. We are "lucky", in that when the panels are producing full output, there's no one home for 4 days a week, so it nearly all goes straight back into the grid and we aren't drawing down at peak rates.


I'd suggest that you look at the cost and life span of the solar panels. These haven't been too flash in the past. The cost is plummeting and the life span is considered a good 20 yrs plus. We have a guy not too far from us has had panels for 18 yrs, and they're still going strong ... There is intensive development in solar generation and also battery development - we'd like to get a "stand alone" backup system - no point having panels generating power if they're shut down when the power goes off - which it does quite frequently out our way....

[sootie]

Solar panels are a brilliant idea. The trouble is that for most of us it just does not work out that well in practice.
If you burn lots of other fuels (wood, lpg etc) & a connection to the National Grid is really difficult, and you live in a very sunny area, and you use separate solar water heating and you use a bit of generator backup and everyone in your household is really miserly with their power usage you can get by, if that is how you want to live. A few folks folks are doing it in NZ.

Some very rough - back of an envelope statistics:
An average NZ house uses about 1kw of power averaged over the day & year.
In practice, it takes around 10 sq metres of solar panel to produce 1kW of electricity in full sunlight.
In a very good NZ location you might get the equivalent of 8 hours direct sunlight power output per day.
(I don't pretend these figures are more than rough estimates).
I Suggest that if solar power really interests you, you go do some calculations allowing that electricity storage is like to be about 70% efficient & it costs heaps to provide big batteries.
Solar power is not a waste of time, but the real return on investment is usually disappointing.

There are some really interesting developments going on with solar power generation & I for one hope they make the whole thing better for all of us. In the meantime, what we are getting is mostly hype, and figures from places like Germany & Japan where it is in the government's interest to subsidise solar power generation because it supports a local manufacturing industry, and because their electricity needs are vast and their generation alternatives are not.

[rickstv]

Don't expect to break even in your lifetime. If you average a power consumption of 25 units a day, the best you can hope for from your system will be 3 kwhrs (3 units) for each of the 2.5 hr average sun hrs/day. there is not much power in the sun before 10 am and after 3 pm.

On a good day you may get 10 Kwhrs or 10 units which will offset your 25 units, so you only pay the utility for 15 units.

You will still be paying a daily supply charge and about 25 cents a unit, the utility will usually want to pay you wholesale rates of 5 cents a unit if you actually have any power to sell to them. some Power companies will pay more, up to retail price.

We don't have the govt incentives to help pay for these installs like Germany, Spain and USA because our energy is already mostly generated by renewables anyway.

Rick.

[NinjaNanna]

Solar panels don't like shade, not even a little bit of shade on just one area of the array. Make sure any trees you have around the house can be pruned back.

And google, google and google some more, there's heaps of good info out there and this is just some of it http://www.schoolgen.co.nz/ss/default.aspx

great for getting some real-world sun light hours statistics.

oh yes and check to see that the solar controller you are being quoted is a MPPT one (Maximum Power Point Tracking) research to find out what I mean.

Good luck, its certainly an interesting field.

[sootie]

Don't expect to break even in your lifetime. If you average a power consumption of 25 units a day, the best you can hope for from your system will be 3 kwhrs (3 units) for each of the 2.5 hr average sun hrs/day. there is not much power in the sun before 10 am and after 3 pm.

On a good day you may get 10 Kwhrs or 10 units which will offset your 25 units, so you only pay the utility for 15 units.

You will still be paying a daily supply charge and about 25 cents a unit, the utility will usually want to pay you wholesale rates of 5 cents a unit if you actually have any power to sell to them. some Power companies will pay more, up to retail price.

We don't have the govt incentives to help pay for these installs like Germany, Spain and USA because our energy is already mostly generated by renewables anyway.

Rick.

A good cost/benefit analysis please, or do we agree the return in NZ is very poor?.
I really am quite a society conscious guy, but if my third great grandson breaks even, because he happens to be still living in my house in 50 years, assuming all the solar panels are still working - that is getting pretty esotreric!
I am easily convinced that reducing power consumption reduces the bills, but this is a separate issue.
As you observe, it still does not get around connection charges either - you have to disconnect to get that bonus.
I agree about the renewables. Actually, I would like to see NZ make use of the natural dam effect our land mass has on the ocean & generate more tidal power in Cook Strait. If we put the engineering effort in, this one is a runner, but Kiwis are not too good at being first in these areas. :yes:

[paturoa]

Oh, and grid tied systems don't use any batteries

There are actually two types, first is the no battery version that you refer to and the other will feed back to the grid when the batts are fullly charged.

[paturoa]

I was reading a web site several months ago about a home built solution in Canada. They installed a new (2nd hand) hot water cylinder before the main cylinder. The solar panels ran through to a 24v direct imersion element in the cylinder that was always on.

Start up costs were the panels and mounts, cables, switch, imersion heater, 2nd cylinder (which I think was purchased 2nd hand for bugger all) and some extra plumbing including linking the header pipe from both cylinders as they said that the solar cylinder would eventually boil (was a low pressure system).

The idea being to maximise the electrical efficiency and miminise the cost outlay. So basically the grid supply was only requried to boost the main cylinder. The efficiency, cost benefit, break even was extremly good from what I read (can recall).

And no I couldn't find the site again.

[caseye]

Blardy useless ewe r, pity you couldn't. I'd like to have read that article. no Matter, suffice to say if we can generate our own power and are allowed to feed it back into the grid and get paid for it, why the hell ain't we being given every incentive and subsidy under the sun to get it done. Same with water catching and treatment. No underground pipes to break when we get a bit of a shake, no lines to come down on us either.

[paturoa]

Blardy useless ewe r, pity you couldn't.

Been trawling my history and googling, suspect the site has gone.

Anyway was just a couple of panels direct to one of these (or similar).

http://www.orionairsales.co.uk/wind-or-solar-immersion-water-heater-element-12v24v-1473-p.asp

And while I was googling there were quite a number of hits where a wind genny was used instead of panels into immersion heaters, so looks like a resonably common solution.

[spanner spinner]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

My father has a 3kw system on his garage roof, it is well worth doing. Grid connected is the best system for most people who are currently connected to the grid as it cuts out the battery cost which can be over half of the cost in a properley set up solar system. I use to work for telecom building remote phone distrbution sites and microwave radio sites a lot of which where solar powered, so I have just a bit of experence with solar setups.

Couple of bits of advice learnt the hard way with my fathers set up. If you are looking at a 3kw system get a 5-6kw inverter as it is easyier to just add more panels later if you want more power rather than have to upgrade most of your setup. It is also cheeper than having to replace the smaller inverter with a larger one if you want to upgrade later as the cost diffrence between 3KW and a 6KW is not that much compaired to the cost of the rest of the components in the system. The larger inverter will also run cooler at the lower power and when these units are cool they run more efficiently. Wire in a cooling fan to blow throught the inverter to keep it cool, once again it increases the efficiently.

Have you got your hot water on solar? If you don't have your hot water on solar allready spend the cost of solar hot water on a bigger solar power set up as this is the more cost effective way. Feeding your hot water your own solar power can work out cheeper than the cost of hot water solar panels and plumbing costs.

Do a bit of reading before you go any further, I would recomend getting the book titled "Solar that realy works" & "Solar Success" both will answer most of the questions you have, they are available from Jaycar electronics part numbers are BE-1535 & BE-1537.

Get a inverter that has a inbuilt MPPT solar charge controller (Maximum Power Point Tracking solar charge controller) as this allows you to wire the panels in series to supply up to 120 volts. This means the solar charge will start earier in the morning and to run later in the day, and it allows a smaller cable size to be used which can be important cost wise if there are long cable runs involved in you install. BUT!!!! don't skimp on the size of the cable you run as it dosen't make sense to have to add extra panels because you are losing the power you have generated in you cable runs because the cable is a little on the small size.

If you have a lot of roof area availabe have a look at using amorphous panels rather than the more common monocrystalline. Amorphous panels work better in low light (ie a overcast day) and supply power for more hours each day, but are larger in area in relation to output compaired to monocrystalline. To give you some idea to get the same power as monocrystalline out of Amorphous panels you need 2-3 times the surface area. A perfect set up would use a set of amorphous panels and a matching set of monocrystalline panels, the only drawback is the area of roof that this set up would take.

Hope this answers some questions, message me if you have any questions that I haven't answered.

[jellywrestler]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

for fuck sake why would anyone admit to having them here? in 5 minutes the mud people will claim the sun then charge us all for the use of it...

[fuknK1W1]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

Can you get low light intensity panels?
Do you get enough sunshine hours?
Is your roof big enough?

[Winston001]

I have been interested in solar energy and design for 15 years. I did what I could with our house - orientation to the sun allowing 30 minutes for longitude, deep eaves, and double glazing.

I have not yet moved to solar energy because I'm not convinced of its efficiency. But - the right time is approaching.

The most simple step is solar hot water panels. They work. Nevertheless you need a plumber who knows what he is doing and I don't think they work with high pressure water systems - you need a heat exchanger.

Solar electric panels are very low efficiency - about 5%. However the technology is improving and I think Sanyo have new panels in the 15-17% range. Just be aware that solar panels are vastly below water/oil/gas/coal generated electricity. As indeed are bio-fuels but that's another topic.

If you are keen then go for it. I plan to in about 7 years time.

[sootie]

I have been interested in solar energy and design for 15 years. I did what I could with our house - orientation to the sun allowing 30 minutes for longitude, deep eaves, and double glazing.

I have not yet moved to solar energy because I'm not convinced of its efficiency. But - the right time is approaching.

The most simple step is solar hot water panels. They work. Nevertheless you need a plumber who knows what he is doing and I don't think they work with high pressure water systems - you need a heat exchanger.

Solar electric panels are very low efficiency - about 5%. However the technology is improving and I think Sanyo have new panels in the 15-17% range. Just be aware that solar panels are vastly below water/oil/gas/coal generated electricity. As indeed are bio-fuels but that's another topic.

If you are keen then go for it. I plan to in about 7 years time.

Absolutely spot on common sense mate! I agree with every word! :yes:

[Edbear]

For everything you need to know about solar, get in touch with Europlumbing, www.europlumbing.co.nz they will not only advise the efficiency of all the systems and the latest technology but specialise in designing bespoke systems tailored to the individual requirements of the home.

And for the record, I was advised that our house didn't warrant solar as we are on mains gas for water, cooking and warmth. The cost-benefit didn't add up enough to make the investment worth it. So they won't just try to sell you a system.

Quality and experience? They do large commercial sites including schools and have a ready to go kit for hot water systems that is effective and economical and a lot cheaper than others on the market.

[sootie]

For everything you need to know about solar, get in touch with Europlumbing, www.europlumbing.co.nz they will not only advise the efficiency of all the systems and the latest technology but specialise in designing bespoke systems tailored to the individual requirements of the home.

And for the record, I was advised that our house didn't warrant solar as we are on mains gas for water, cooking and warmth. The cost-benefit didn't add up enough to make the investment worth it. So they won't just try to sell you a system.

Quality and experience? They do large commercial sites including schools and have a ready to go kit for hot water systems that is effective and economical and a lot cheaper than others on the market.
I do agree that going solar can be worthwhile.
The most obvious example I know of was on a station far out in the Aussie outback. Endless sun, electricity and other energy sources at a big premium. Virtually no corosion maintenance issues either.

They got it right too - huge solar panels for direct heating of a vast amount of hot water. They employed 30 stockmen who came home most nights, and immediately wanted a hot shower late afternoon. Very hard to argue with the economics of this one!

These days they probably generate most of their electricity from the sun too. Real estate is not much of a problem on an outback station in Aus either!

[Swoop]

The most simple step is solar hot water panels. They work.
A work colleague researched solar panels a year ago and determined that the government should assist people getting into solar hot water heating with a scheme like the "warm up" campaign. A loan that gets mainly paid back over a few years would make a significant dent in power bills.

His other finding was that NZ does not maintain the panels. European systems have ongoing maintenance to keep their systems in good order, where we fail to do that and just make a repair when eventually needed...

[steve_t]

A work colleague researched solar panels a year ago and determined that the government should assist people getting into solar hot water heating with a scheme like the "warm up" campaign. A loan that gets mainly paid back over a few years would make a significant dent in power bills.

His other finding was that NZ does not maintain the panels. European systems have ongoing maintenance to keep their systems in good order, where we fail to do that and just make a repair when eventually needed...

Solar water heating is subsidised in NZ. Solar generation isn't :(

Maintenance is a must!

[SPman]

I'd suggest that you look at the cost and life span of the solar panels. These haven't been too flash in the past.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3376&utm_source=NewsletterMailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EM120918L

[steve_t]

http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3376&utm_source=NewsletterMailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EM120918L

Awesome news :2thumbsup

[Akzle]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

yes, but nowhere near that much.

good to know?
- don't f*ck your batteries
- check for energy rebates and program your controller to only draw off grid at those times when it's advatageous.
- mppt charge controller will keep your batteries healthier than pwm.(see pt 1)
- you will learn anyway, but change how you use energy. get rid of the other five TVs in your house, turn shit off at the wall, get rid of your dryer etc.
- get energy efficient appliances, 3-4 "energy stars" +
- sell your hyydroponic system and grow your plants in 40lt bags the way god intended.
- you will have HIGH CURRENT DC - this shit kills you.
- battery banks of, say 12x 2v cells are better than banks of say, 2x 12 batteries, on account of you can replace dead cells cheaper than whole batteries and (generally) get higher Ah cells.
- AGM batteriees are the f*ing shiz. but expensive.
- smart meters are the devil. for many reasons. if you can avoid it, do (don't let the powerco tell you you "have" to have one to grid tie.)

who is installing your system?
jaycar supply cheapest and have 25 year warranty on most shit. (plus grid tie inverters etc)
volt electronics will also ship but are slightly more expensive (?)

[Akzle]

holy shit. glad our armchair experts are out. (and wrong)

the NZ govt WILL NOT support people into being self sufficient. it's not profitable..

a standard household solar install (batteries and all) can expect to repay itself in ~10 years. (20-30k$)

the 25 year 80% warranty offered by jaycar is fairly well backed

if you want to make your own solar panels you CAN get shit (under achieving factory second) cells and solder them together.
http://www.mdpub.com/SolarPanel/index.html

i have a combination of amorphous, polycrystalline and CIS (expensive, compact and efficient) panels. i get <50% output on a fairly average (cloudy) day,
from about 8am to 4-5pm (today, ie) i'm at 100% output.

grid tie inverters sync the frequency to the mains power when switching in/out so as not to f*ck anything your side or theirs.
240v inverters are COMMON AS FUCK, to the point where if you want a yank (110v) one in NZ you have to go looking especially)

inverters provide "cleaner" power (truer to waveform, sine) than grid power, it pays to route any grid power coming in, through your batteries and inverter for this reason, then you can do away with all those surge protector/spike clipping boards.

get to jaycar, fork out the 4$ for a catalogue and see how many ways/days you can connect your off-gridery. (and start jizzing about the toys you can buy with your next paycheque)

depending where you are build yourself a wind turbine (you might need "resource consent" if you're a boot-lickin citizen.)
http://www.yourgreendream.com/diy_instructions.php
which dump excess load to hotwater heater, rather than panels (which go open circuit under no-load)

[steve_t]

yes, but nowhere near that much.

good to know?
- don't f*ck your batteries
- check for energy rebates and program your controller to only draw off grid at those times when it's advatageous.
- mppt charge controller will keep your batteries healthier than pwm.(see pt 1)
- you will learn anyway, but change how you use energy. get rid of the other five TVs in your house, turn shit off at the wall, get rid of your dryer etc.
- get energy efficient appliances, 3-4 "energy stars" +
- sell your hyydroponic system and grow your plants in 40lt bags the way god intended.
- you will have HIGH CURRENT DC - this shit kills you.
- battery banks of, say 12x 2v cells are better than banks of say, 2x 12 batteries, on account of you can replace dead cells cheaper than whole batteries and (generally) get higher Ah cells.
- AGM batteriees are the f*ing shiz. but expensive.
- smart meters are the devil. for many reasons. if you can avoid it, do (don't let the powerco tell you you "have" to have one to grid tie.)

who is installing your system?
jaycar supply cheapest and have 25 year warranty on most shit. (plus grid tie inverters etc)
volt electronics will also ship but are slightly more expensive (?)


The system is being installed by a medium/large home building company here in Hamiltron. The 3 owners of the company are doing their own houses and offered to do mine at cost. I told them they can do their own ones first and mine last as I hope they'll work out any kinks on their own houses ;)
I'm pretty sure the system won't have batteries but I'm make sure the charge controller is top notch.
I already turn everything off at the wall. The only things constantly on is the fridge and alarm clock radio but I'm thinking of getting rid of that too since I use my phone for checking the time anyway.
I already have a smart meter and apparently another smart box is being added shortly. The month after the smart meter went it, my power bill was HUGE!! :(
Sounds like you're pretty on to it with these. Thanks for the tips :)

[Naki Rat]

Solar water heating is subsidised in NZ. Solar generation isn't :(

Maintenance is a must!
Not since the last budget!

[Naki Rat]

We are still fine tuning a 5+kW PV system we installed last summer. We imported 24 x 215W BP panels from the US and although rated at 5.12kW generation actually peaks at a bit over 6kW. We are grid tied through an SMA 6000A inverter and daily production is around 35+kWh on a good day, like today. Total investment was about $33K and we are getting an 8% ROI based on current electricity prices (through Meridian).

BP like most reputable PV manufacturers give a 90% @ 12 years, 80% @ 25 years warranty, or something similar, but as we seem to be getting 118% now....?

Take a look at our ground based set-up (http://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/drupal/node/76). Easier and cheaper installation, easy clean, and no risk in the case of a house fire - there is 330+VDC coming off these arrays!!

[scissorhands]

8% sounds like good farming

http://store.sundancesolar.com/do-it-yourself-solar-kits.html

and a diesel generator for a freezer if you fish and hunt
300m of polyethylene hose coiled on the roof and circulated into a super insulated hot water cylinder, the diesel genny can warm water too for extra guests
if you live simple a few led lights, small fridge, stereo and laptop
a power generating exercycle could be a great way to lose weight
10minutes hard out may be way more power than a few solar panels
put the dog on a treadmill
old F&P Washer motors make excellent wind and water drop generators
learn to de sulphate and score cheap/free car and truck batteries with no cranking amps left

then there's the home brew using the local spring water
saving money on the dole
paradise

[Slicksta]

You can get solar panels cheap from aussy.

Might be worth a look

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-190W-Watt-24v-A-Grade-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panel-/321007290885?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item4abd868a05&_uhb=1#ht_3143wt_1037

[Akzle]

...

niiiiiice.
got pics of your inverter/grid tie. it sounds cool.

i was thinking about this thread the day other. OP, if you're paying more than 40k for 3.15KW, your mate aint your mate. jaycar have a kit,(incl four day blackout batterys), for that price...

[steve_t]

We are still fine tuning a 5+kW PV system we installed last summer. We imported 24 x 215W BP panels from the US and although rated at 5.12kW generation actually peaks at a bit over 6kW. We are grid tied through an SMA 6000A inverter and daily production is around 35+kWh on a good day, like today. Total investment was about $33K and we are getting an 8% ROI based on current electricity prices (through Meridian).

BP like most reputable PV manufacturers give a 90% @ 12 years, 80% @ 25 years warranty, or something similar, but as we seem to be getting 118% now....?

Take a look at our ground based set-up (http://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/drupal/node/76). Easier and cheaper installation, easy clean, and no risk in the case of a house fire - there is 330+VDC coming off these arrays!!

Thanks! That's awesome!! :2thumbsup



You can get solar panels cheap from aussy.

Might be worth a look

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-190W-Watt-24v-A-Grade-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panel-/321007290885?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item4abd868a05&_uhb=1#ht_3143wt_1037

Australia have awesome subsidies for PV systems! A 3kw system is about $2500. I wonder if these panels do something with the subsidy...




niiiiiice.
got pics of your inverter/grid tie. it sounds cool.

i was thinking about this thread the day other. OP, if you're paying more than 40k for 3.15KW, your mate aint your mate. jaycar have a kit,(incl four day blackout batterys), for that price...

Less than $10k for the 3kw

[Naki Rat]

You can get solar panels cheap from aussy.

Might be worth a look

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-190W-Watt-24v-A-Grade-Monocrystalline-Solar-Panel-/321007290885?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item4abd868a05&_uhb=1#ht_3143wt_1037

Monocrystalline have higher peak efficiency but polycrystalline give better generation in low light conditions which are more common in NZ.

Our panels cost us $3.60/W landed in NZ and are top quality with triple redundancy in the internal circuitry. There are (Chinese) panels available in NZ now for <$2/W but you get what you pay for as they say :crazy:
Decent quality inverters are at least $1/W

Incidentally we also crunched the numbers on installing a wind turbine but PV won hands down. Pay back rate on a turbine was way too low and maintenance is a huge issue in NZ's gusty wind conditions which wreck turbines!

[Winston001]

Incidentally we also crunched the numbers on installing a wind turbine but PV won hands down. Pay back rate on a turbine was way too low and maintenance is a huge issue in NZ's gusty wind conditions which wreck turbines!

Yes, a mate of mine in Cromwell is totally off the grid and has experimented with various solar and wind generation options. He imported a windmill from the USA about 10 years ago. It certainly worked but the wind wasn't reliable. Recently he sold it. The main problem was low frequency noise day and night which penetrated the house and became a constant annoyance.

He now relies on a bank of solar panels which swing to follow the sun plus a generator backup.

[george formby]

We are still fine tuning a 5+kW PV system we installed last summer. We imported 24 x 215W BP panels from the US and although rated at 5.12kW generation actually peaks at a bit over 6kW. We are grid tied through an SMA 6000A inverter and daily production is around 35+kWh on a good day, like today. Total investment was about $33K and we are getting an 8% ROI based on current electricity prices (through Meridian).

BP like most reputable PV manufacturers give a 90% @ 12 years, 80% @ 25 years warranty, or something similar, but as we seem to be getting 118% now....?

Take a look at our ground based set-up (http://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/drupal/node/76). Easier and cheaper installation, easy clean, and no risk in the case of a house fire - there is 330+VDC coming off these arrays!!

Now that is a set up.


If you have a really big property........ linky (http://solartribune.com/solar-farms/)

[SPman]

That's one of those parabolic reflectors that melt salt, or summat.......saw one of those about 50 miles south of Las Vegas....
Nice set up mr Rat - where in the 'naki is that?

[Naki Rat]

.........
Nice set up mr Rat - where in the 'naki is that?

In our chook paddock ;) (inland Bell Block)

[Slicksta]

Monocrystalline have higher peak efficiency but polycrystalline give better generation in low light conditions which are more common in NZ.

Our panels cost us $3.60/W landed in NZ and are top quality with triple redundancy in the internal circuitry. There are (Chinese) panels available in NZ now for <$2/W but you get what you pay for as they say :crazy:
Decent quality inverters are at least $1/W

Incidentally we also crunched the numbers on installing a wind turbine but PV won hands down. Pay back rate on a turbine was way too low and maintenance is a huge issue in NZ's gusty wind conditions which wreck turbines!

Mmm interesting.

Crunching numbers again would it be worth investing in a cheap system ie around 1.30per watt plus some cheap inverter from a reputable chinese company? Ie a mass market product for NZ?

[Naki Rat]

Mmm interesting.

Crunching numbers again would it be worth investing in a cheap system ie around 1.30per watt plus some cheap inverter from a reputable chinese company? Ie a mass market product for NZ?

There are plenty of suppliers of cheap PV panels (http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/p-618-230w-tianneng-polycrystalline-pv-cells-4600-w.aspx) and inverters but very much a case of getting what you pay for. In a similar vein I'm not in the market for a Great Wall ute any time soon :no:

Also due to the substantial government subsidies and subsequent abolition of same in many markets (e.g. Germany, Australia, California, etc) the PV industry grew rapidly and now has an international glut. This has been compounded by recessionary conditions in most markets and will probably see PV components selling very cheaply for some time. There are many wholesalers of such products stuck with unsold stock that they will struggle to sell at their cost price which will present bargain buying for those buyers able to capitalise on the situation.

Add to that the technological advances in PV manufacture that are predicted to deliver generation efficiencies of 25%+ (our BP panels are rated at 12.9% efficiency) in the future and you have the makings of a very volatile market. Like any technology however, this week's/month's/year's model will be outdated by the next and you can sit on your hands forever if you take that approach. The one sure thing is that electricity supply rates will keep heading up so the potential 'earning' capacity will continue to rise with them unless Meridian's parity export rate is reduced, in which case it is time to investigate going off-grid by adopting some form of storage capacity.

[pete376403]

Mmm interesting.

Crunching numbers again would it be worth investing in a cheap system ie around 1.30per watt plus some cheap inverter from a reputable chinese company? Ie a mass market product for NZ?

reputable? chinese? In the same sentence?

[BMWST?]

......... and getting the hell of this rock (because eventually that lovely sun is going to start to get bigger and we'll all be BBQ'd).


i dont think anyone needs to worry about that yet

[steve_t]

Bit of a thread dredge but in light of this info "New Zealand power prices have surged at twice the rate of nearly every other developed country over the past 30 years" I'm glad I've got a PV system on the way but sad I've been missing out on the huge amount of sunlight hours we've had lately.

Lid blown on power price rort
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10863135

[mashman]

Bit of a thread dredge but in light of this info "New Zealand power prices have surged at twice the rate of nearly every other developed country over the past 30 years" I'm glad I've got a PV system on the way but sad I've been missing out on the huge amount of sunlight hours we've had lately.

Lid blown on power price rort
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10863135

:sick: with envy at your setup... hardly surprising Big John wants to sell some of that overpriced shit off.

[oldrider]

Do your sums carefully and check out your whole installation before you embark on such a project.

I did this when I retired and found that when you take into consideration initial and on going maintenance costs etc, if you have grid supply at your door, it is cheaper to buy off the grid and invest your capital elsewhere!

Our monthly electricity bill average has never been in excess of $50.00 and reliability factor is extremely high, we have diversification to cover various shortage scenario's and have an adequate standby generator, should it be required.

As SPman has mentioned, nearly every other country in the world will subsidise such an installation but NZ governments, especially Labour and their Green party sub set, will not have a bar of this, they were in power when I was doing my enquiries, they are full of BS!

Every grid connection is as capable of exporting as much power as it is importing so all you have to do is establish and install the acceptable safety measures and protections required by the line company that you deal with.

The pay back period will be long so the sooner you begin the better, if it works out for you .... there is no tangible accounting for the enjoyment you get out of having such a system, only you can calculate that! Good luck!

[BMWST?]

Do your sums carefully and check out your whole installation before you embark on such a project.

I did this when I retired and found that when you take into consideration initial and on going maintenance costs etc, if you have grid supply at your door, it is cheaper to buy off the grid and invest your capital elsewhere!

Our monthly electricity bill average has never been in excess of $50.00 and reliability factor is extremely high, we have diversification to cover various shortage scenario's and have an adequate standby generator, should it be required.

As SPman has mentioned, nearly every other country in the world will subsidise such an installation but NZ governments, especially Labour and their Green party sub set, will not have a bar of this, they were in power when I was doing my enquiries, they are full of BS!

Every grid connection is as capable of exporting as much power as it is importing so all you have to do is establish and install the acceptable safety measures and protections required by the line company that you deal with.

The pay back period will be long so the sooner you begin the better, if it works out for you .... there is no tangible accounting for the enjoyment you get out of having such a system, only you can calculate that! Good luck!


50$ !! do you have other heating/water heating methods.50 is not much more than the daily charge!

[Zedder]

Looking at getting a grid connected solar system on the roof. Just thought I'd see if anyone has one and if there are any 'good to know' things. Probably getting 3kw

Have a read of this:http://solarenergyhouse.co.nz/

[oldrider]

50$ !! do you have other heating/water heating methods.50 is not much more than the daily charge!

True! ... Quoted $50 is average and yes we have gas for cooking (water heating in summer months) and multi-fuel fire with wet back for winter heating and heat pumps for regulating temp in winter.

Have never used electricity for water heating except on test.

Gas is 9kg bottles on auto change over, use equals about 1 per month in summer, 1 only all through winter months for cooking.

Electricity bill is one of our smaller ones ... Telecom on the other hand ... sheesh!

Most people have no idea about how much electricity they are wasting in their homes! :confused:

[Akzle]

Most people have no idea about how much electricity they are wasting in their homes! :confused:

not just electricity, but energy.

of course, y' just couldn't do without the 60" plasma and that new fangled hair-dryer, eh...

[oldrider]

not just electricity, but energy.

of course, y' just couldn't do without the 60" plasma and that new fangled hair-dryer, eh...

And why not? ... Before my generation this technology was not! :shifty: It is our gift to your generation ... try to enjoy it! :yes:

[Swoop]

Most people have no idea about how much electricity they are wasting in their homes!
Especially teenagers...<_<
Dunno why.:dodge:

[Zedder]

Especially teenagers...<_<
Dunno why.:dodge:

Lol, according to psychologist Nigel Latta, teenagers are "not right in the head" which may explain it a bit.

[Naki Rat]

Our PV set-up had its 1st birthday in late February. The year's generation was 7,650kWh :woohoo:
The problem is that Meridian have now announced that as of April 8th they will be knee-capping all of their 'Distributed Generation' customers by reducing their buy-back rate for exported excess generation by effectively 2/3. Now looking at power storage systems including Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles, as the Commodore is due for replacement in any case.

[oldrider]

When it comes right down to it none of the so called "Green" political aspirants are interested in backing you in this country!

Every connection is capable of two way energy flow and the thought of every customer doing what you are doing scares the generation companies shitless!

No need for any new infrastructure, most of it is already installed, just add PV capacity and the hydro stations back off until the sun goes down!

Too fucking easy but they would rather build new power stations and continue feeding to the customer one way and demand higher prices! :brick:

Good on you but don't hold your breath for cooperation or realisation of payback.

[steve_t]

Our PV set-up had its 1st birthday in late February. The year's generation was 7,650kWh :woohoo:
The problem is that Meridian have now announced that as of April 8th they will be knee-capping all of their 'Distributed Generation' customers by reducing their buy-back rate for exported excess generation by effectively 2/3. Now looking at power storage systems including Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles, as the Commodore is due for replacement in any case.

Wow! That's some good generating!! Meridian have been way better than everyone else anyway but how shit is it to disincentivise self generation by reducing the buy-back rate?!! Grrr... Dicks. Batteries are expensive. The Holden Volt is expensive!!

[SPman]

Our PV set-up had its 1st birthday in late February. The year's generation was 7,650kWh :woohoo:
The problem is that Meridian have now announced that as of April 8th they will be knee-capping all of their 'Distributed Generation' customers by reducing their buy-back rate for exported excess generation by effectively 2/3. Now looking at power storage systems including Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles, as the Commodore is due for replacement in any case.
That's about right for a 5Kw setup - our 1.5kW setup is generating about 2550 kWh a year, and we have slightly better sun hours than over there. Luckily we're still getting 42c kWh for our excess.
Power companies hate home PV - and so does the current Government - after all - how are you going to flog off power companies,if demand is falling........

[Winston001]

Every connection is capable of two way energy flow and the thought of every customer doing what you are doing scares the generation companies shitless!






Power companies hate home PV - and so does the current Government - after all - how are you going to flog off power companies, if demand is falling........

With all due respect I doubt the electricity generating companies even notice domestic generators. They sure as heck are not scared. They will make a profit whether you backload 5MW or 100MW. In fact the more you generate the happier they will be.

Its far cheaper for energy companies to not spend anything on new generation, instead they could rely on domestic generation. The problem is they can't actually rely on it being there. And at the moment the contribution is infintessimal.

Plus you are naive to expect anyone to buy back their own core product at their own sale price. Naturally they will pay a little less. After all, you could sell your excess kw to someone else. :lol:

[Winston001]

Don't get me wrong - I've been interested in solar energy for 20 years and want to see it standard in all homes. The thing is, it just is not cost effective yet. Solar panels, wiring, inverter, batteries - all expensive stuff and not particularly efficient...but hopefully not too far away.

The best option at the moment is solar water heating and even then you've got to figure the complex plumbing involved, abandon a high pressure water system, and add in electric heating (or reverse circulation) for frost protection. I keep hoping these problems will be solved but to date there isn't one easy solution.

[paturoa]

Don't get me wrong - I've been interested in solar energy for 20 years and want to see it standard in all homes. The thing is, it just is not cost effective yet. Solar panels, wiring, inverter, batteries - all expensive stuff and not particularly efficient...but hopefully not too far away.

The best option at the moment is solar water heating and even then you've got to figure the complex plumbing involved, abandon a high pressure water system, and add in electric heating (or reverse circulation) for frost protection. I keep hoping these problems will be solved but to date there isn't one easy solution.

See post #20. I was looking some time back and the merkins and canucks are wiring direct from the panels, one switch into 12v and 24v immersion heaters in cylinders. For those people on grid, that strikes me as the least capital, fastest payback method if you're up for a new cylinder.

Edit: would need to have a good boil / high pressure solution.
Edit 2: And some were using dual wind and solar panels.

[RoscoP]

Not correct, we installed solar hot water heating about 18 months ago. Cost $2700 for the 20 tube collector plus about $1200 for plumbing / installation. Was connected to a rheems 180 litre mains pressure HW cylinder. I recently replaced the 180 cylinder (it was 15 years old) with a stainless 330 litre solar cylinder ($2,450). We haven't had the element turned on since November last year and last year didn't turn it on until early May. We now have enough stored (very) hot water to see us through 2 to 3 days of no sun. In the winter we are $220 plus for power per month, with the solar running in the summer about $130.00 per month. A couple of other benefits are that you can have long hot showers whenever you want and hot rather than cold clothes washing. I am thinking of adding another collector to boost winter performance. On a really hot summer day the temperature on the collecter can get to 88 c and 78 c at the bottom of the cylinder.
If we are saving $700 plus per year (which we are) the ROI will be 9 years. The is based on current power prices, as prices increase to ROI time becomes less. I like to think of it this way. $6000.00 (the cost of the system) invested at 3.5% per annum would return me $245.00 per year less tax of say 28% = $177.00 per year in the hand. Makes $700 savings on the power per year for the investment I have made look good, as well as offering a degree of futureproofing and the feel good factor of sustainability

[Akzle]

See post #20. I was looking some time back and the merkins and canucks are wiring direct from the panels, one switch into 12v and 24v immersion heaters in cylinders. For those people on grid, that strikes me as the least capital, fastest payback method if you're up for a new cylinder.

Edit: would need to have a good boil / high pressure solution.
Edit 2: And some were using dual wind and solar panels.
solar and wind require two different controllers (or some clever electrical cuntery.) - solar goes OC when batteries are full, wind requires resistive load to brake the turbine.

wind is a better option for heating water tanks, as the element provides more resistance when hotter, so brakes the turbine, plus heats your water. if you still ahve nergy spare.. well shit, buy a fucking prius.


Not correct, we installed solar hot water heating about 18 months ago. Cost $2700 f...
blahblahblah and GFY. (really).

that's passive water heating, ie, the water gets heated by the sun, it's a fucking good system and idea, and everyone should do it. tubes are available on TM cheap as shit, you can line your roof and walls with them, all you need is a gas torch (30$ at bunnings) and some copper brazing wire-flux and spare pipe.
(though i'd tell you to reduce your water use)

i'm not quite sure how we got here, as i believe we were talking about PV (ie sun-> electricity) systems. which are LESS efficient for water heating (ie a 3kW element needs more panel surface area than equivalent BTU from vacuum tubes)
there are HEAPS of good passive energy ideas, the best being thermal mass and efficient building design.
fact remains that in modern day society, the geyser/HWC is one of the largest energy consumers in the home, followed by hairdryers, microwaves, dishwashers, ovens (who the fuck uses an oven anymore?) etc...

of course, a bucke painted black and left in the sun will do the same job for 98c.
(or a coil of LDPE, for about 120$ (seriously, go and get one, tie it to your roof and plug the ends into your hot water system, see how much you save))

it's a fucking wonder that wandering black folk with fuckall had this shit down to a T, but modern "civilization" struggles to "incorporate green ideas into development"

[paturoa]

solar and wind require two different controllers (or some clever electrical cuntery.) - solar goes OC when batteries are full, wind requires resistive load to brake the turbine.

wind is a better option for heating water tanks, as the element provides more resistance when hotter, so brakes the turbine, plus heats your water. if you still ahve nergy spare.

The solutions don't have controllers as there is no battery. Panel, cable, switch, heater emement. Probably doesn't even need a fuse.

They are just wired full time directly into the resistive load of the heating element. There was also some stuff where there were combo solar PV, and wind genny systems. Thinking about that some more, it would require some grunty diodes to stop reverse current into either the PV or genny.

[Akzle]

The solutions don't have controllers as there is no battery. Panel, cable, switch, heater emement. Probably doesn't even need a fuse.

They are just wired full time directly into the resistive load of the heating element. There was also some stuff where there were combo solar PV, and wind genny systems. Thinking about that some more, it would require some grunty diodes to stop reverse current into either the PV or genny.

"the solutions"?
PV panels output DC at a fluctuating voltage and current
turbines output AC voltage at fluctuating current. (need to confirm this one)

PV regulators stabilise DC output to ~13, 27, 38, 51V and fluctuate current
tubine rectifier-regulators convert to DC and stabilise to system voltage

at over-current/ batteries full, PV panels go OC, at under-current (shaded panel) a (normally schotty) diode bypass clicks in, bypassing that panel, preventing damage to it from current running though it from other panels etc.

at high wind speeds, turbines fuck off. they are permanent magnet generators, unless they have a resistive load ("dump load" or, say, a water heating element) they will over-spin, and, as point one, fuck off.
the resistive load limits the current flowing out of the coil, thus providing electro-magnetic resistance to the magnets, thus braking the turbine.

never EVER connect a PV panel or turbine to anything without a charge/load controller, and fuses are highly fucking recommended.

[paturoa]

"the solutions"?
PV panels output DC at a fluctuating voltage and current
turbines output AC voltage at fluctuating current. (need to confirm this one)[/quote]

Yeah, PVs have an optimum power output depending on the resistive load. As the light and load side voltage varies so does the optimum resistance value. So recent controllers such as mppt are varying the resistance continously to max the power. By sticking an appropriate immersion heater element (ie wattage and resistance) as the load on a PV with no controller, you may loose a few watts. Controllers are most useful for battery systems. This solution doesn't have any batteries.

Sure, gennies output ac and you will need a rectifier solution. There are heaps of gennies for sale that have inbuilt rectifiers. I agree there would be issues with wind gennies. Too low a resistance and it will overspeed, too high and it wouldn't turn in low wind. I'd guess that overspeed on an immersion load would drive too large a voltage into the element which would be "bad".


PV regulators stabilise DC output to ~13, 27, 38, 51V and fluctuate current
tubine rectifier-regulators convert to DC and stabilise to system voltage

Sort of, several generalisations there.


at over-current/ batteries full, PV panels go OC, at under-current (shaded panel) a (normally schotty) diode bypass clicks in, bypassing that panel, preventing damage to it from current running though it from other panels etc.

at high wind speeds, turbines fuck off. they are permanent magnet generators, unless they have a resistive load ("dump load" or, say, a water heating element) they will over-spin, and, as point one, fuck off.
the resistive load limits the current flowing out of the coil, thus providing electro-magnetic resistance to the magnets, thus braking the turbine.

never EVER connect a PV panel or turbine to anything without a charge/load controller, and fuses are highly fucking recommended.

Not sure you read my post fully as it was about connecting an immersion heater directly to the output without batteries (low up front cost).

Fuses are for pussies!

[SPman]

Don't get me wrong - I've been interested in solar energy for 20 years and want to see it standard in all homes. The thing is, it just is not cost effective yet. Solar panels, wiring, inverter, batteries - all expensive stuff and not particularly efficient...but hopefully not too far away.

The best option at the moment is solar water heating and even then you've got to figure the complex plumbing involved, abandon a high pressure water system, and add in electric heating (or reverse circulation) for frost protection. I keep hoping these problems will be solved but to date there isn't one easy solution.

........all expensive stuff and not particularly efficient
Efficiencies improving - a big push on, internationally.
http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3628&utm_source=NewsletterMailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EM130312L

They are also putting in massive research now on home storage systems, to bring the price and size of them down - Li-on batteries etc

.......standard in all homes...http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3629&utm_source=NewsletterMailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EM130312L

.......t just is not cost effective yet. Not cost effective? Our (subsidized) system cost $1,950 on the roof. Un-subsidized - would have been about $4,200 at the time - cheaper now. With feed in tariffs, it's pumping $950/yr worth of power back into the grid. Without feed in tariffs, it would save us $900/yr in power bills due to maximum generation occurring at peak power price times........as far as we are concerned, it's almost paid for itself already - the next 17 yrs are a plus......
Solar power is a bit like a computer. The longer you put committing, because of this reason or that, the longer you will keep on putting things off. We're just glad the Gov over here put subsidies in place to get started (as are 1,200,000 other Aussie households...), even if the pressure is now on and they keep slashing the subsidies at the behest of their big business mates........

[RoscoP]

Not correct, we installed solar hot water heating about 18 months ago. Cost $2700 for the 20 tube collector plus about $1200 for plumbing / installation. Was connected to a rheems 180 litre mains pressure HW cylinder. I recently replaced the 180 cylinder (it was 15 years old) with a stainless 330 litre solar cylinder ($2,450). We haven't had the element turned on since November last year and last year didn't turn it on until early May. We now have enough stored (very) hot water to see us through 2 to 3 days of no sun. In the winter we are $220 plus for power per month, with the solar running in the summer about $130.00 per month. A couple of other benefits are that you can have long hot showers whenever you want and hot rather than cold clothes washing. I am thinking of adding another collector to boost winter performance. On a really hot summer day the temperature on the collecter can get to 88 c and 78 c at the bottom of the cylinder.
If we are saving $700 plus per year (which we are) the ROI will be 9 years. The is based on current power prices, as prices increase to ROI time becomes less. I like to think of it this way. $6000.00 (the cost of the system) invested at 3.5% per annum would return me $245.00 per year less tax of say 28% = $177.00 per year in the hand. Makes $700 savings on the power per year for the investment I have made look good, as well as offering a degree of futureproofing and the feel good factor of sustainability



Just got our latest power bill $101.69 for the month of Feb / Mar (30 days). That is our cheapest bill for many years (family of 4, home all month). I have invested in LED bulbs and multi boxes with individual switches so we can switch off all the energy vampires when they are not in use. Coupled with the solar hot water heating it has made a big difference. I would be interested to know what other folk out there are paying per month for a family of 4 so I can get a feel for what the average is?

[huff3r]

Just got our latest power bill $101.69 for the month of Feb / Mar (30 days). That is our cheapest bill for many years (family of 4, home all month). I have invested in LED bulbs and multi boxes with individual switches so we can switch off all the energy vampires when they are not in use. Coupled with the solar hot water heating it has made a big difference. I would be interested to know what other folk out there are paying per month for a family of 4 so I can get a feel for what the average is?

$130ish over summer for a flat of four here, we are all early 20s so tv/radio/computers on most of the time. The gas cooking/heating/hot water is certainly helping here though. Hits more like $170 in the depths of winter.