Spring's here, time to die

[jrandom]

Let's get out there, folks. Those statistics aren't going to write themselves.

Now, I don't know about all y'all, but the solar panel on top of my Shoei that's connected directly to my testicles is just going wild. Time to wrap those testicles around the throttle and show the nearest reinforced concrete power pole or oncoming station wagon who's boss.


<img src="http://i48.tinypic.com/15n7lt3.jpg"/>

<img src="http://i47.tinypic.com/25i9daq.jpg"/>

(This seasonal community safety message has been brought to you by Friends of Katman, Inc, a not-for-profit organisation dedicated to saving lives as offensively as possible.)

[bogan]

Should just stick to pedlys then eh?

Circle of life and all that, someone has to make room for the cute widdle wambies.

[Madness]

Most bins wins.

[Str8 Jacket]

Knee down action time!

[Akzle]

Most bins wins.

people keep telling me i'm a looser...

must be f*cken l33t.

[Str8 Jacket]

people keep telling me i'm a looser...

must be f*cken l33t.

Think you might be wasted, bro.

[Katman]

So who's running the sweepstake?

[MIXONE]

I've seen some candidates doing the commute thing already.

[Madness]

So who's running the sweepstake?

$20 each way on Rossirep.

[The End]

$20 each way on Rossirep.

Oh that "pull a wheelie and get all the bitches" guy, yeah I'll put $20 on that too.

[bogan]

$20 each way on Rossirep.

Nah that cunts been around for ever, got to be all talk or he would have binned it already.

I'll put $20 on the next 'how to wheelie' thread poster, think its been a good indicator the last 2 (???) times.

[rustic101]

Most bins wins.

FFS just remember to wave on the way down or we will never hear the end of it....

[pete376403]

Started already
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10834893

[oneofsix]

I've seen some candidates doing the commute thing already.

:shit: I've been spotted :eek5:

[MIXONE]

:shit: I've been spotted :eek5:

Could be.We ride the same roads if you head for the CBD regularly.

[rossirep]

$20 each way on Rossirep.

come on fella, im sure you can do better than that, or is $20 all the pocket money ya mummy lets you spend.?

[Madness]

come on fella, im sure you can do better than that, or is $20 all the pocket money ya mummy lets you spend.?

She's dead actually and sorry but I'm not prepared to increase my bet. You've simply got too much potential to disappoint.

[Fatjim]

(This seasonal community safety message has been brought to you by Friends of Katman, Inc, a not-for-profit organisation dedicated to saving lives as offensively as possible.)

Katman ain't offensive, just stupid.

[Katman]

just stupid.

Says the man who's easily ammused.

[oneofsix]

Could be.We ride the same roads if you head for the CBD regularly.

Four to five days a week regular enough. Often pass an eagle on his morning flight but don't see him in the afternoon.

[gammaguy]

Says the man who's easily ammused.

his teachers blackboard doesnt have spellcheck

[White trash]

What testicles? You ride a Skirtster don't you?

[jrandom]

*obligatory genitalia remark*

*carefully neutral response*

[HenryDorsetCase]

NOW4QiOD-oc

I thought this was to be a BLADE RUNNER tribute thread.

I am disappoint.

[jrandom]

I thought this was to be a BLADE RUNNER tribute thread.

I'm glad someone noticed the reference.

[Banditbandit]

Let's get out there, folks. Those statistics aren't going to write themselves.



I've been out there all year - not like the fair weather riders!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qlLcZnbaijo/SPN1-qeQdZI/AAAAAAAACng/pZAsJu2ulGc/s400/Australian_Motorcycle_Grand_Prix_04.jpg

[Big Dave]

Won't SOMEBODY think of the children!

[SMOKEU]

Won't SOMEBODY think of the children!

Pedobear certainly will.

[Hitcher]

New suspension makes The Hill go faster as one's testicles pine for the days of yore.

[Big Dave]

Pine nuts?

[Gremlin]

I've been out there all year - not like the fair weather riders!!!
Well for goodness sake, get back in the seat, it'll be far easier to ride your bike from there. :weird:

[onearmedbandit]

I've been out there all year - not like the fair weather riders!!!



Stay right where you are, your award will be along soon.

[Swoop]

Suzuki dealers around the country will be looking forward to new sales.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Suzuki dealers around the country will be looking forward to new sales.

that avatar is twisted genius.....

[onearmedbandit]

Suzuki dealers around the country will be looking forward to new sales.

Lets get binning those Gixxer's guys. But try to save the front ends please, daddy wants a late model set of forks.

[oneofsix]

Lets get binning those Gixxer's guys. But try to save the front ends please, daddy wants a late model set of forks.

Sounds like you need a rear end SMIDY thanks to a dozy cager rather than a spring time dash and crash.

[onearmedbandit]

Sounds like you need a rear end SMIDY thanks to a dozy cager rather than a spring time dash and crash.

Nah they could lose the front or back, so long as the front doesn't hit anything solid.

[nosebleed]

Won't SOMEBODY think of the children!

Those that are, are probably applying for teaching jobs in Kaitaia


wut too soon?

[actungbaby]

well then we use you as bike stand hehe you have to lean face foward

[SPman]

Spring's here, time to die

After you........

[Conquiztador]

You morbid fucks.

The local undertaker has started an advertising campaign as business has been slow.

He has come up with this brilliant slogan:

Die today, tomorrow it might be too late!

[G4L4XY]

Pfft been riding this whole time :D

[Drew]

Ooohhh hell yeah! Thursday night races back on soon!

[Katman]

Ooohhh hell yeah! Thursday night races back on soon!

I'm sure we'll get to see the 'results' soon enough.

[Drew]

I'm sure we'll get to see the 'results' soon enough.You know what's funny? The cruisy Wednesday night ride supplies heaps more crashes than the Thursday night ride. And criterea for ours includes, 'must be able to wheelie for a kilometer'.

[oneofsix]

Ooohhh hell yeah! Thursday night races back on soon!


I'm sure we'll get to see the 'results' soon enough.

Guess Katman is waiting for the DNFs

[Drew]

Guess Katman is waiting for the DNFsHe doesn't care if you admit fault though.

[Katman]

So we've had our second in the space of two days.

Not a good start to the riding season peoples.

[oneofsix]

He doesn't care if you admit fault though.


So we've had our second in the space of two days.

Not a good start to the riding season peoples.

:yes: :rolleyes:

Sadly it is not a good start. :(

[BoristheBiter]

Katman ain't offensive, just stupid.

could that be offensively stupid or stupidly offensive?

[Berg]

Four to five days a week regular enough. Often pass an eagle on his morning flight but don't see him in the afternoon.

You must also see Mrs Berg some days (white GSR750) as she does the daily commute every day rain, hail or shine. Just keep an eye out for the police car that follows her most mornings:msn-wink:

[oneofsix]

You must also see Mrs Berg some days (white GSR750) as she does the daily commute every day rain, hail or shine. Just keep an eye out for the police car that follows her most mornings:msn-wink:

A good keen lass. :niceone: I'm usually on the road whilst the :Police: are still dunking their morning (do)nuts, now they will be out early tomorrow. Anyhow these days old Ra is just having his morning stretch and hasn't popped his head over the horizon, be back to pitch dark when the clocks spring forward. I will have to pay more attention from now on, myself black on black GSXF650 so not very distinctive, (you can see the bike on tagorama).

Sadly locally today's news was not good. :(

[AllanB]

I ride the open road and hills in the weekends. I had Monday off ride into town to get a WOF. F-me up the date if not once but twice cars have a friggen crack at me. Sticking to my usual rounds for the next twelve months.

[Berg]

Sadly locally today's news was not good. :(

Yea, not good. Sad for all involved and painful for those left behind.

Mrs Berg leaves home before 6am so I normally follow her south as far as Plimmerton or until somebody says "pick me" along the way. For a woman who never liked bikes she now needs prying off her bike with a crowbar. Refuses to take the car even when its hosing down

[oneofsix]

Yea, not good. Sad for all involved and painful for those left behind.

Mrs Berg leaves home before 6am so I normally follow her south as far as Plimmerton or until somebody says "pick me" along the way. For a woman who never liked bikes she now needs prying off her bike with a crowbar. Refuses to take the car even when its hosing down

Definitely on the road at about the same time then but sounds like you two are just a hairs whisker ahead of me and I'm not fast enough to catch you before someone else requests your attention. :cool:

[sinfull]

So we've had our second in the space of two days.

Not a good start to the riding season peoples.

Wazan me !

[BoristheBiter]

So we've had our second in the space of two days.

Not a good start to the riding season peoples.

Bit touchy today or does the truth hurt?

****wit.

[Bald Eagle]

Yea, not good. Sad for all involved and painful for those left behind.

Mrs Berg leaves home before 6am so I normally follow her south as far as Plimmerton or until somebody says "pick me" along the way. For a woman who never liked bikes she now needs prying off her bike with a crowbar. Refuses to take the car even when its hosing down

followed you down Raumati Straight this morn after you passed me before the three wheeler got your attention :clap:

[oneofsix]

followed you down Raumati Straight this morn after you passed me before the three wheeler got your attention :clap:

Darn I missed all the fun, didn't even see the eagle soar this morning. Only bikes I saw going south were two cruisers in camo jacket that left me way behind, reckon the little one must have had their throttle at the stops.

[Berg]

followed you down Raumati Straight this morn after you passed me before the three wheeler got your attention :clap:
Gave you a wave:bleh: no tickets just a wee discussion about passing right at the end of the passing lanes. Two wheels would have been fine but with the three he was making things a bit tight:nono:
I got to use one of my favorite biker sayings "last second decisions can often be our last decisions"

[Hitcher]

"last second decisions can often be our last decisions"

Pfft. That's like saying that one's second-to-last putt never goes on the hole.

[Drew]

I got to use one of my favorite biker sayings "last second decisions can often be our last decisions"I'd forget to try and be polite at the point you said that, and turn quite abusive indeed.


Pfft. That's like saying that one's second-to-last putt never goes on the hole.But that's not his favorite!

[Berg]

I'd forget to try and be polite at the point you said that, and turn quite abusive indeed.

But that's not his favorite!

By that stage we were having a very pleasant conversation about biking in general and as I can personally attest to a desicision made hastily almost being my last we happily agreed on it. Got the scars and physical problems to prove it.
Would you rather I just issued him a ticket and was a complete nazi prick

[Drew]

By that stage we were having a very pleasant conversation about biking in general and as I can personally attest to a desicision made hastily almost being my last we happily agreed on it. Got the scars and physical problems to prove it.
Would you rather I just issued him a ticket and was a complete nazi prickI admit to imagining the wrong context, if you were having a conversation rather than preaching.

I've got scars from making fuck ups too, most people do. But your chosen favourite saying, is total dribble.

I don't care if you give him a ticket. What would the charge be?

You don't happen to know the Lower Hutt snake who has a crusade against the Thursday night ride over here do ya? He is a preacher, and the type of cop I see as the steriotypicle arsehole.

[Berg]

No, I wasn't having a preach and the saying in only one of my better ones (it relates to way more than motorcycling).
As for charge, careless would have been the one as he had forced the vehicle he was passing off the lane and onto the left shoulder by his actions. I used my (holy jezz, I've actually got some) judgement after talking to the rider and chose not to proceed with any action other than a heads up. Guess ya had to be there to see it go down.
Not sure who your Thursday nemisis is. As a rider myself I'm quite happy to stop for a chat but I normally keep the preaching to myself. I don't always condone what I hear goes on with these rides but I'm not heading over your way the deliberately piss you off and target.

[caseye]

Can't get fairer than that aye guys.
Nice work Berg.

[oneofsix]

Lovely frosty spring morning ride :niceone: Didn't see Mrs Berg nor the eagle this morning. Soon be morning sun-strike to watch for which can be fun when coupled with chilly mornings amazing the way the light scatters on misty windscreens and then there is the lack of sunvisors in helmets.

[Bald Eagle]

Eagle flew at a slightly later time this morning ;-)

[oneofsix]

Eagle flew at a slightly later time this morning ;-)

Avoiding the traffic jams I trust and enjoying the sunshine?

[Shadows]

Pfft. That's like saying that one's second-to-last putt never goes on the hole.

Or it's always in the last place one looks.

[PrincessBandit]

So we've had our second in the space of two days.

Not a good start to the riding season peoples.

And more today and summer has barely started. Beginning to wonder about taking the bikes down south in january after all. :no:

[onearmedbandit]

And more today and summer has barely started. Beginning to wonder about taking the bikes down south in january after all. :no:

Really? People die all the time, from all sorts of things. Choking on a potatoe chip, tripping over getting out of the shower, driving down to the shops. Would that also stop you from eating chips, showering, or driving to the shops?

[Drew]

Really? People die all the time, from all sorts of things. Choking on a potatoe chip, tripping over getting out of the shower, driving down to the shops. Would that also stop you from eating chips, showering, or driving to the shops?FUCK!!! I could die from all of those things?

I need bubble wrap. LOTS of bubble wrap!!!

[jellywrestler]

I need bubble wrap. LOTS of bubble wrap!!! Yeah but you'd probably layer it in baby oil and give yourself a 'Hand-Shandy'.......

[onearmedbandit]

FUCK!!! I could die from all of those things?

I need bubble wrap. LOTS of bubble wrap!!!

People have suffocated from that shit bro, you sure about that??

[PrincessBandit]

Really? People die all the time, from all sorts of things. Choking on a potatoe chip, tripping over getting out of the shower, driving down to the shops. Would that also stop you from eating chips, showering, or driving to the shops?

This is true but despite all those things being potentially fatal I don't tend to do them on my bike :gob: You know what I meant. I know you do. :violin:

[Bassmatt]

People have suffocated from that shit bro, you sure about that??

Idiots! You just gotta pop a few bubbles, plenty of air in em.

[ajturbo]

So we've had our second in the space of two days.

Not a good start to the riding season peoples.

Theres a riding season..????

[98tls]

Lets get binning those Gixxer's guys. But try to save the front ends please, daddy wants a late model set of forks.

Pptt... bugger the Gixxer front ends mate,mine are only on there until the recently arrived R1 setups fitted,for no other reason than i can.

[James Deuce]

Pptt... bugger the Gixxer front ends mate,mine are only on there until the recently arrived R1 setups fitted,for no other reason than i can.

I'm with him. I'd like some '99 R1 forks please.

[gijoe1313]

Finally got around to ripping the cover off my limited edition Blade Runner DVD pack, damn good film. Sorry, was this thread meant to be about bikes? :innocent:

[Drew]

Pptt... bugger the Gixxer front ends mate,mine are only on there until the recently arrived R1 setups fitted,for no other reason than i can.Sooooo, there's a Gixxer front end going begging then?

[Disco Dan]

Finally got around to ripping the cover off my limited edition Blade Runner DVD pack, damn good film. Sorry, was this thread meant to be about bikes? :innocent:

DVD ? Old tech now...

And did someone mention "riding season" WTF? it's called "all year round" :facepalm:

[Conquiztador]

Giving up is not an option. There is always a chance that you are one of the ones able to, at your 80'th b'thday, proudly announce that you have been riding all your life and you are still alive! (Thou, to achieve this you need to give up smoking, fatty foods and start eating garlic daily.)

[jrandom]

Giving up is not an option.

Sure it is.

There are certainly people on this forum who would be well advised to get rid of their motorcycles and get a nice little car instead.

Riding motorbikes isn't for everyone, and this "DON'T GIVE UP, STAY IN THE SADDLE" bullshit does nobody any good.

Anyway. No point wailing and wringing hands. I'm sure this year won't be a statistically significant deviation from last year or the one before that. Every silly season's the same. It's why I put this thread up.

Motorcyclists die because they don't know how to control their machines, because they have a poor attitude, and because the price of error is so much higher than it is when you're in a car.

C'est la vie. World keeps turning. Plenty more humans to go around.

[Conquiztador]

Motorcyclists die because they don't know how to control their machines, because they have a poor attitude, and because the price of error is so much higher than it is when you're in a car.



The two riders that were killed in Lindis Pass were not at fault.
The two riders killed in Taranaki (and the number of others that ended up in hopsital from the same accident) were not at fault.
Two others killed in the w/e gone were crashes with cars and even if the outcomes from the polices investigations are not completed, there are big possibilities that the bikers were not at fault.

I know that this makes no difference to the numbers of bikers killed, or makes it easier to accept the sad outcomes. I also am one of the ones who advocate the view that only I am responsible for my safety. Expect the unexpected.

But it is hard to stomach when you go on doing your own business and then suddenly, at no fault of your own, some imbecile crashes in to you with a cage leaving a widow and kids without one parent.

Is the only answer really to stop riding? I refuse to accept that!

[george formby]

Giving up is not an option. There is always a chance that you are one of the ones able to, at your 80'th b'thday, proudly announce that you have been riding all your life and you are still alive! (Thou, to achieve this you need to give up smoking, fatty foods and start eating garlic daily.)

I'm not one for crowing & physically on the way out already so I will take my chances with all of the above rather than make myself miserable & shit 4 times a day on a tofu & seaweed diet.:innocent::laugh:

[jrandom]

The two riders killed in Taranaki (and the number of others that ended up in hopsital from the same accident) were not at fault.

Fault schmault.

If an oncoming car pulled out in front of me to overtake, I'd back myself any day to swerve safely around it.

I wouldn't back myself to do it if I was in a group-ride-lemming situation, though. (Which is why I don't go on group rides much, if at all, these days.) And that, I'm guessing, is exactly what happened there. The van pulled out to pass, and the group-think inertia of the oncoming bunch of motorcyclists riding in procession made them maneuver more like a truck and trailer unit. Boom. I bet 90% of them were just watching the wheel of the guy in front.

Wouldn't surprise me if the Lindis Pass bin came under the same heading. Oncoming cars are easy enough to swerve around, so long as you're not off in a daydream at the time and you're not going so goddamn fast that you have no time or space to maneuver. Stay sharp and ride only within what you can see, or die.


crashes with cars... not at fault... I know that this makes no difference to the numbers of bikers killed

Exactly. Fault is irrelevant. Either you're capable of surviving on a bike, or you're not.


Is the only answer really to stop riding? I refuse to accept that!

Either handle the jandal, or don't ride. Some handle that jandal, some don't and die, and some are humble enough to accept that motorcycling's not for them. I (cautiously) back myself. Guess I'll find out eventually if that's the wrong call.

But there are definitely people out there who don't even back themselves but who still ride... because why? I don't really know. We've all met them. They think they should, maybe? Peer pressure to be cool? Not wanting to be seen to 'give up'? I really do think that's the case sometimes. Betcha there were people on that BRONZ ride who were out there not actually enjoying it much, solely because they felt some sort of obscure pressure from within themselves to get on the bike. Telling themselves they were having fun.

Sorry, folks, when I see you getting off the bike with sweat pouring down your face on a cool day, massaging the cramp in your hands from death-gripping the throttle - I know you weren't having fun.

People who are invested in their self-image as a motorcyclist and who stubbornly ignore the fact that they suck at it - those people tend to die.

I don't know any of the folk who died this last weekend and can't comment on them directly. I'm just commenting based on my own experience and observations.

[george formby]

Is the only answer really to stop riding? I refuse to accept that!

Ditto.
I'm only here for the one big lap & refuse to ride it in a state of perpetual worry & hand wringing. That way lies madness, misery & self doubt.
I do or used to do a lot of high risk stuff, by far & away the most exhilarating, feel alive moments of my life and I'm not sacrificing one second of that feeling for a "what if" state of mind.

[DEATH_INC.]

I do or used to do a lot of high risk stuff, by far & away the most exhilarating, feel alive moments of my life and I'm not sacrificing one second of that feeling for a "what if" state of mind.
What he said. Motorcycles are no more dangerous than lots of other shit I've done all my life.
I push the boundaries, sure, but I know what the consequences can be. I accept it. It doesn't mean I'm a bad rider, an idiot, should give up blah blah blah. I ride how I do because that's what I want to do.
At least I've lived. More than a lot of dead people could say....

[pritch]

Sorry, folks, when I see you getting off the bike with sweat pouring down your face on a cool day, massaging the cramp in your hands from death-gripping the throttle - I know you weren't having fun.



Don't confuse arthritis with a death grip.

The five dead motorcyclists this weekend may be a statistical blip but each will have a major impact on those near to them.
As well as themselves.

On the Normanby crash, an eye witness says the rider of the leading bike didn't even have time to blink.

You don't know what's around the corner all you can do is try to stay as safe as possible.

[jrandom]

Don't confuse arthritis with a death grip.

Arthritis in the hands is kinda rare amongst people under 40. I'm sticking with the death grip theory.


an eye witness says the leading bike didn't even have time to blink

Really? 'Not even time to blink'? Based on the photo I saw, that bend ain't no 35kph blind corner, and the van would've taken at least 2 or 3 seconds to pull out of the traffic and take up most of the other lane.

Dunno about you, but I've seen a few group rides and I have a real clear mental picture of how that bunch would've come around the corner. All tight formation and brrmm-brrmm-look-at-us-on-our-motorbikes, doing everything but thinking about what hazards might pop out of the stopped traffic on the other side of the road.

[PrincessBandit]

I noticed that one of the riders on camera the other night commented (toy run) that it was the first time they hadn't had a police presence on the route, due apparently to cost cutting, I think he said.
Generally I avoid large group rides simply because of the potential unpredictability of who else might be in the group, and I maintain my bubble as much as possible. When there are a large number of riders though the logistics of that become significantly more difficult. However, the last big group ride I did was the ladies Rolling Thunder one and we all got on just fine together.

[Maha]

I noticed that one of the riders on camera the other night commented (toy run) that it was the first time they hadn't had a police presence on the route, due apparently to cost cutting, I think he said.
Generally I avoid large group rides simply because of the potential unpredictability of who else might be in the group, and I maintain my bubble as much as possible. When there are a large number of riders though the logistics of that become significantly more difficult. However, the last big group ride I did was the ladies Rolling Thunder one and we all got on just fine together.

A massive group of patched dudes rode through Warkworth perhaps Saturday?...there were so many, it took ages for them to not be heard, I could still here them (from our place) as they headed for the Dome Valley some 5-6 Ks away. They had two cops cars (that Anne could see from looking out the window) with them.

[SPman]

People who are invested in their self-image as a motorcyclist and who stubbornly ignore the fact that they suck at it - those people tend to die.
Hmmm - note from son #1 yesterday - BTW.. there was a couple of fat crass good' ol' HD boys on the day, one was so busy being a stereotype he pulled out straight into another biker! Poor other guy, nice old geezer went home after that. Meanwhile 'HD Man' started being a jerk, until Em showed him the footage she had on her iphone, then he accepted responsibility and has to pay for two repairs...... y-ouch!

perhaps Pete could enlighten us?

[caspernz]

Some may find this topic is approached in bad taste...oh well, tough!

I'd love to know how many of the recent spate of deaths on bikes were year-round riders? Now I'm no expert, but in the last few years of my dad riding he only rode in the summer months, and it showed. Both my brother and myself asked the old fella if it wasn't about time he sold the bike...and to give him credit he did that soon thereafter.

Group rides...not for me.

Riding with riders of an unknown ability...not for me.

Now I don't know jrandom myself, but hey, he's got a valid point :clap:

[meteor]

Really? 'Not even time to blink'? Based on the photo I saw, that bend ain't no 35kph blind corner, and the van would've taken at least 2 or 3 seconds to pull out of the traffic and take up most of the other lane.

I heard car 1 was stationary in the middle of the road waiting to turn right and giving way to the 50 or so bikes. Car 2 approaching car 1 from behind reacts late and swerves left, van travelling behind cars 2 also reacts late and swerves right... into the bikers. So probably no time at all for the bikers. Sad, very very sad. A terrible weekend on the roads.

Three of us had just gone through that stretch of road heading north about an hour before the crash. Rode with and waved [yes waved] to many riders out and about who were possibly going to that ride. Sobering stuff.

[Drew]

I wish I was a Volvo salesman, the number of people on here who seem ready to give up the bike for a nice safe cage.

[jrandom]

I wish I was a Toyota salesman

Glad you've finally seen the light.

[onearmedbandit]

I wish I was a Volvo salesman, the number of people on here who seem ready to give up the bike for a nice safe cage.

With the number of comebacks, no you don't.

[MrKiwi]

...



Really? 'Not even time to blink'? Based on the photo I saw, that bend ain't no 35kph blind corner, and the van would've taken at least 2 or 3 seconds to pull out of the traffic and take up most of the other lane.

Dunno about you, but I've seen a few group rides and I have a real clear mental picture of how that bunch would've come around the corner. All tight formation and brrmm-brrmm-look-at-us-on-our-motorbikes, doing everything but thinking about what hazards might pop out of the stopped traffic on the other side of the road.

Until you know the facts quite frankly you should stop surmising. It was a tragic weekend and personally I am waiting for the outcome of the accident investigations before randomly and insensitively surmising on cause and effect.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

A massive group of patched dudes rode through Warkworth perhaps Saturday?...there were so many, it took ages for them to not be heard, I could still here them (from our place) as they headed for the Dome Valley some 5-6 Ks away. They had two cops cars (that Anne could see from looking out the window) with them.

Saw them at Silverdale. The cops changed the traffic lights to remain red so they could all turn off
East Coast Rd and onto the road that takes you to Orewa.

[Motu]

Wouldn't surprise me if the Lindis Pass bin came under the same heading. Oncoming cars are easy enough to swerve around, so long as you're not off in a daydream at the time and you're not going so goddamn fast that you have no time or space to maneuver. Stay sharp and ride only within what you can see, or die.

Lindis Pass was a tourist in the right hand lane - to her the bikes were in the wrong lane. Trying to predict the reactions of a driver used to driving on the right and thinking they are a normal drive on the left driver is not going to work. To take out two bikes they were obviously too close together, but I bet her evasive actions and their evasive actions resulted in a meeting of metal.

[Zamiam]

The bikes in Warkworth and Silverdale will have been on the Hells Angels poker run for charity. Very well organized apparently although I was out of town so didn't participate

[pritch]

Arthritis in the hands is kinda rare amongst people under 40. I'm sticking with the death grip theory.



I can barely remember when I was under 40, but I don't think arthritis bothered me then. :whistle:

[danchop]

this tip works in winter too i think.
approach any vehicle wanting to turn into your path as a murderer, and slow down enough that the outcome will only be attempted murder

[Katman]

this tip works in winter too i think.
approach any vehicle wanting to turn into your path as a murderer, and slow down enough that the outcome will only be attempted murder

I think this is half our problem - over dramatization.

Looking upon car drivers as though they're out to kill you is only encouraging the animosity that is all too prevalent on our roads already.

Treating every other vehicle on the road as a potential threat is quite sufficient.

[onearmedbandit]

I think this is half our problem - over dramatization.

Looking upon car drivers as though they're out to kill you is only encouraging the animosity that is all too prevalent on our roads already.

Treating every other vehicle on the road as a potential threat is quite sufficient.

+1. Motorists are not out to kill you.

[Katman]

+1. Motorists are not out to kill you.

And thinking they are is what produces motorcyclists who view every car driver as a "fucking cager" and who then fall back on the victim mentality in the event of a crash - because it's easier to view the car driver as an attempted murderer rather than examine how you might have avoided the crash.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hmmm - note from son #1 yesterday - BTW.. there was a couple of fat crass good' ol' HD boys on the day, one was so busy being a stereotype he pulled out straight into another biker! Poor other guy, nice old geezer went home after that. Meanwhile 'HD Man' started being a jerk, until Em showed him the footage she had on her iphone, then he accepted responsibility and has to pay for two repairs...... y-ouch!

perhaps Pete could enlighten us?

lol. Yep. Poor geezer got torpedoed by a true numpty that simply didn't look where he was going and didn't know what he was fucking doing. All in front of the shop with many people watching. You'd think you'd be extra careful eh?!:facepalm:

[caseye]

S'OK Pete, not your fault.They're out there, everywhere.
Another +1 to KM.
Agree with you on that one these days I do.

[Maha]

I think this is half our problem - over dramatization.

Looking upon car drivers as though they're out to kill you is only encouraging the animosity that is all too prevalent on our roads already.

Treating every other vehicle on the road as a potential threat is quite sufficient.

...and we are so friendly towards cyclists on our roads, the same roads that no one else should be feckin using while we are.

[Fatjim]

Some may find this topic is approached in bad taste...oh well, tough!

I'd love to know how many of the recent spate of deaths on bikes were year-round riders? Now I'm no expert, but in the last few years of my dad riding he only rode in the summer months, and it showed.


Both good riders and bad riders die this time of year.

[Fatjim]

lol. Yep. Poor geezer got torpedoed by a true numpty that simply didn't look where he was going and didn't know what he was fucking doing. All in front of the shop with many people watching. You'd think you'd be extra careful eh?!:facepalm:

Mate, Wellington motorcyles only got two repairs out of the day?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mate, Wellington motorcyles only got two repairs out of the day?

Surprising seeing some of the riding yes!

[BMWST?]

Until you know the facts quite frankly you should stop surmising. It was a tragic weekend and personally I am waiting for the outcome of the accident investigations before randomly and insensitively surmising on cause and effect.

yeah but look at his screen name.

[BMWST?]

The two riders that were killed in Lindis Pass were not at fault.
The two riders killed in Taranaki (and the number of others that ended up in hopsital from the same accident) were not at fault.
Two others killed in the w/e gone were crashes with cars and even if the outcomes from the polices investigations are not completed, there are big possibilities that the bikers were not at fault.

I know that this makes no difference to the numbers of bikers killed, or makes it easier to accept the sad outcomes. I also am one of the ones who advocate the view that only I am responsible for my safety. Expect the unexpected.

But it is hard to stomach when you go on doing your own business and then suddenly, at no fault of your own, some imbecile crashes in to you with a cage leaving a widow and kids without one parent.

Is the only answer really to stop riding? I refuse to accept that!

i beleive the other two(not the farmer) were SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS

[Drew]

...and we are so friendly towards cyclists on our roads, the same roads that no one else should be feckin using while we are.Those cunts can fuck right off. I don't care if you think it's because I don't want to share the roads, cyclists in the CBD and state highway 2, here in Wellington deserve to get hit half the time.

When they don't get hit, and are just fucking traffic up, they should be getting ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic. Also for not riding single file. Also for failing to remain inside a lane. Also failing to indicate.

Show me any other road user where the majority are as piss poor as cyclists for obeying the road rules, and I might feel bad for the ones that get killed or hurt. Till then, they can suck my sweaty fuckin ball sack.

[Drew]

Both good riders and bad riders die this time of year.I knew three riders who were all killed within a week of this date, some six years ago. All of them good, year round riders.

Two were riding like dicks, one was finished riding like a dick for the day, and just fucked it up.

Ability isn't always part of the equation, but I think it certainly has a massive part to play in lowering the road toll. Not bike specific, the road toll in general.

[Maha]

Those cunts can fuck right off. I don't care if you think it's because I don't want to share the roads, cyclists in the CBD and state highway 2, here in Wellington deserve to get hit half the time.

When they don't get hit, and are just fucking traffic up, they should be getting ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic. Also for not riding single file. Also for failing to remain inside a lane. Also failing to indicate.

Show me any other road user where the majority are as piss poor as cyclists for obeying the road rules, and I might feel bad for the ones that get killed or hurt. Till then, they can suck my sweaty fuckin ball sack.

Once again, you have failed to see the irony of what is said...:yes:
....I 80% agree with what you have said...the 20% in dispute is the is the use of the word 'deserve'...are you off the :doctor: again? :motu:

[Drew]

Once again, you have failed to see the irony of what is said...:yes:
....I 80% agree with what you have said...the 20% in dispute is the is the use of the word 'deserve'...are you off the :doctor: again? :motu:Yes, I did miss the irony. Because what you said isn't ironic. The attitude toward cyclists is warranted in my opinion, toward motorcyclists, it's more stigma than anything.

Alright, I agree that "deserve" is not the right word though. Perhaps it is best to say, that I fully understand how someone can mow down a cyclist, and be completely perplexed at how the fuck it happened.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fault schmault.

If an oncoming car pulled out in front of me to overtake, I'd back myself any day to swerve safely around it.

Exactly. Fault is irrelevant. Either you're capable of surviving on a bike, or you're not.



Hope those words don't come to bite your bum.

[scumdog]

Fault schmault.

If an oncoming car pulled out in front of me to overtake, I'd back myself any day to swerve safely around it.

Oncoming cars are easy enough to swerve around, so long as you're not off in a daydream at the time and you're not going so goddamn fast that you have no time or space to maneuver. Stay sharp and ride only within what you can see, or die.

Fuck I wish I was as good as you...<_<
FIGJAM.

[pritch]

Fuck I wish I was as good as you...<_<
FIGJAM.

Anybody can be a riding god sitting at their computer.

[oneofsix]

Anybody can be a riding god sitting at their computer.

it is the only place you can

[Drew]

Anybody can be a riding god sitting at their computer.Everyone's a keybaord hero, one way or another.

[Metal Doctor]

Sure it is.

There are certainly people on this forum who would be well advised to get rid of their motorcycles and get a nice little car instead.

Riding motorbikes isn't for everyone, and this "DON'T GIVE UP, STAY IN THE SADDLE" bullshit does nobody any good.

Anyway. No point wailing and wringing hands. I'm sure this year won't be a statistically significant deviation from last year or the one before that. Every silly season's the same. It's why I put this thread up.

Motorcyclists die because they don't know how to control their machines, because they have a poor attitude, and because the price of error is so much higher than it is when you're in a car

2 of my friends died on the road, it was there own fault. but some of the guys stopped riding after that because it afected them so much watching 2 mates die in such a horrific crash. not trying to make a point or anything just adding my 2 cents worth.

[Katman]

Hope those words don't come to bite your bum.


Fuck I wish I was as good as you...<_<
FIGJAM.


Anybody can be a riding god sitting at their computer.


it is the only place you can


Everyone's a keybaord hero, one way or another.

Mr Random's comment may have been a big call, but I'm all for big calls.

On-coming traffic gets plenty of my attention and if I spot anything that looks potentially threatening then I'm looking to position myself in the best place for evasive action should it be needed.

It's all about riding with ones eyes open and brain switched on.

[jellywrestler]

Everyone's a keybaord hero, one way or another.

clearly not you, you haven't even worked out how to spellcheck!

[Ocean1]

Mr Random's comment may have been a big call, but I'm all for big calls.

On-coming traffic gets plenty of my attention and if I spot anything that looks potentially threatening then I'm looking to position myself in the best place for evasive action should it be needed.

It's all about riding with ones eyes open and brain switched on.

I think you'll find Mr Random's comment was a piss-take. It's what he does.

It's what you do, too, you're just not aware of it.

Or much else...


clearly not you, you haven't even worked out how to spellcheck!

Like you?

[Katman]

I think you'll find Mr Random's comment was a piss-take. It's what he does.

It's what you do, too, you're just not aware of it.

Or much else...


I think you'll find you're wrong.

[Magnum Noel]

Hope those words don't come to bite your bum.


Ain't that the truth. Talk about tempt fate.

[Fatjim]

You know, its the unexpected that will kill you. You can go round spouting off how alert you are, or how good your reflexes and your handling skills are, but in the end, the unexpected will get you, now matter how hard you try to expect it. Trouble with NZ, is that there is far too much of the unexpected. Shitty roads, shitty drivers, shitty riders.

[Berries]

Shitty roads, shitty drivers, shitty riders.
Only to be expected.

[MrKiwi]

Mr Random's comment may have been a big call, but I'm all for big calls.

On-coming traffic gets plenty of my attention and if I spot anything that looks potentially threatening then I'm looking to position myself in the best place for evasive action should it be needed.

It's all about riding with ones eyes open and brain switched on.

And you're assuming the dead riders didn't do this? You have no idea whether they did or they did not and the fact that they died is no proof either way that they did or did not. Your implication being, of course, that they did not is utterly fictitious, insensitive and misinformed crap.

[newbould]

Until you know the facts quite frankly you should stop surmising. It was a tragic weekend and personally I am waiting for the outcome of the accident investigations before randomly and insensitively surmising on cause and effect.
Constantly hear that the serious crash unit are investigating but where can we get to read these reports? lots to learn there surely.

[schrodingers cat]

people keep telling me i'm a looser...

must be f*cken l33t.

You're not a looser bro - you're the King of Irony

[Katman]

Your implication being, of course, that they did not is utterly fictitious, insensitive and misinformed crap.

And of course, you're certain that everyone on that ride was riding with absolute concentration on what they were doing?

[scumdog]

And of course, you're certain that everyone on that ride was riding with absolute concentration on what they were doing?

And you know different?<_<

[Katman]

And you know different?<_<

I wouldn't say I know different - but I can certainly imagine different.

[scumdog]

I wouldn't say I know different - but I can certainly imagine different.
But...but..you said you know all....:shifty:

[Katman]

But...but..you said you know all....:shifty:

Nah, that's just my marketing team.

[MrKiwi]

I'd fire your marketing team...

[Conquiztador]

I'd fire your marketing team...

I think you will find that they resigned and he is now doing his own marketing...

[Drew]

Ooohhhhh good, another Katman bashing thread. These are always good fun.

Katanas can suck my balls.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mr Random's comment may have been a big call, but I'm all for big calls.

On-coming traffic gets plenty of my attention and if I spot anything that looks potentially threatening then I'm looking to position myself in the best place for evasive action should it be needed.

It's all about riding with ones eyes open and brain switched on.

This is true. But if the cars were stationary...I doubt you or anyone else would slow down to 20kph (if you did/do...you're a fucking menace). So then all of a sudden...out from behind the line of cars pops a van and wastes you...I could understand you (them) not having much of a chance. Yes I know you can see the top of a van over the cars. But if the van too is stantionary...and get's shunted by a car from behind into your path...you wouldn't have seen the car behind the van...

Certain things CAN indeed be unavoidable when riding. But I'm all for taking as much care as you poss can.

[sinfull]

I'd fire your marketing team...


I think you will find that they resigned and he is now doing his own marketing...

Careful, you might find yourself out of a job here !!!

The irony .......

[jrandom]

Hope those words don't come to bite your bum.

So do I!

But seriously, if one's not prepared to back oneself, what the hell is one doing on a motorbike in the first place? All I'm saying is, when I go for a ride, I'm consciously backing myself to stay in one piece. I don't see it as a gamble.


Certain things CAN indeed be unavoidable when riding.

Aye. You could be riding along and get hit by lightning just as a tree falls on you from the side of the road. There's a point where one just has to write the risks off and carry on.


I think you'll find Mr Random's comment was a piss-take. It's what he does.

No, I was quite serious.

What I do is, say exactly what I mean and what I'm prepared to defend. It's often unpopular, and people sometimes deal with it by telling themselves that it's a 'pisstake' and they can therefore ignore it.

It's not. And I never do the "just kidding, haha got you" cop-out when the going gets tough. If someone successfully argues that I'm wrong, I'll change my position.

[Katman]

What disappoints me most is that motorcyclists, by and large, prefer to be patted on the head and told "There, there, you did well to almost avoid the crash" instead of "wake the fuck up and make a better effort next time".

More people should be prepared to make big calls and then set about living up to them.

Seems instead that people prefer to set their goals low enough that no effort is required.

[Zedder]

Constantly hear that the serious crash unit are investigating but where can we get to read these reports? lots to learn there surely.

Good question. The only info (stats etc) I've ever found was on the NZ Police site. There's no actual report on any specific incident that I could see though: https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/resources/strategic/road-policing-strategic-plan-2011-2015.pdf

[leopardskin]

What disappoints me most is that motorcyclists, by and large, prefer to be patted on the head and told "There, there, you did well to almost avoid the crash" instead of "wake the fuck up and make a better effort next time".

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos

[rastuscat]

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos

Freud theorized on this. We have a view of ourself, and our subconscious adapts our perceptions of our reality to justify our actions in terms of our self image. It's subconscious self protection.

Like, I say I'm a fecking good rider. I'm so shit hot I am on KB. Then I fall off on a bend coz I'm riding like a knob, then my identity tells me that it is the road, the brakes, the weather, some other thing, but never my own fault. Coz I'm a fecking good rider.

Thing is, until I twig that I was riding like a knob, nothing will change. Only I can adjust my knobbish riding, so recognising it is the main step.

Recognising our deficiencies is the awesome-est way to open the door to improvement.

But not many of us do it. Coz we is knobz.:weird:

[oneofsix]

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos


Freud theorized on this. We have a view of ourself, and our subconscious adapts our perceptions of our reality to justify our actions in terms of our self image. It's subconscious self protection.

Like, I say I'm a fecking good rider. I'm so shit hot I am on KB. Then I fall off on a bend coz I'm riding like a knob, then my identity tells me that it is the road, the brakes, the weather, some other thing, but never my own fault. Coz I'm a fecking good rider.

Thing is, until I twig that I was riding like a knob, nothing will change. Only I can adjust my knobbish riding, so recognising it is the main step.

Recognising our deficiencies is the awesome-est way to open the door to improvement.

But not many of us do it. Coz we is knobz.:weird:

Both very wise and right to a point. The lovely thing about motorcycling and KB in particular is there are plenty of people to tell you you were a knob, some do it in a way you will listen to eventually (at first you will probably deny it but you heard them so it does get in to quote Mrs Marsh) and others just get your back up so you write them off as knobz.
Now if the same was true of car drivers wouldn't it be wonderful but with car drivers, unless you are a boy racer, you will be treated as a "normal" driver and therefore OK. Yeah on KB we know normal driver means knob but they don't. The shame is they have over a tonne of metal, glass and plastic to throw at us and all we do is make a small dent in one of their panels.
It doesn't matter how will our extra sensory perception is work their are so many knobz in cars out there that eventually one will get a rider in spite of their best efforts. Don't take this as an excuse to relax cause that just raises the chance of being whacked. Stay as alert as you can and "stay save out there" (Hill St Blues)

[MrKiwi]

All good advice. As riders we need to underestimate our riding capabilities, underestimate the abilities of other road users and stay as vigilant as possible. Always.

BUT, and this is what is getting me about the crashes in Taranaki this weekend. There are occasions that even if you do that you might just be in the wrong place at the wrong time with no options left no matter how good at perceiving the road conditions and surrounding threats. To imply, as some do on KB, that a good rider will always be able to detect and avoid a life threatening situation is pure unmitigated rubbish. End of story. Same goes for car drivers. We should aim to make it always happen, but always being able to achieve the aim is a different matter.

The previous two road safety strategies (to the current safer journeys strategy) had as the basis of their philosophical approach that at the end of the day if an accident happened it was the fault of the driver/rider. However, the current strategy recognises recent research findings that humans are not perfect and no matter how good our training and reaction times, we can and do make mistakes. Therefore our roading and safety system should be built on the basis that if something goes wrong it should be more forgiving. That is difficult to achieve for motorcyclists.</SPAN>

Hence, be as vigilant of humanly possible, underestimate our own skills as riders and underestimate the skills of other road users is our lot. </SPAN>
</SPAN>

[Genestho]

Good question. The only info (stats etc) I've ever found was on the NZ Police site. There's no actual report on any specific incident that I could see though: https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/resources/strategic/road-policing-strategic-plan-2011-2015.pdf These crash investigation reports are given to the families involved, the coroners and other relevant parties. They contain personal information, witness statements, photos, specific crash details, scene investigation, expert analysis, calculations, legal status of vehicles, vehicle inspectors report, actually not pleasant, at all.

So specific crash reports are not out there for public access, unless the family see fit to release them in "public interest".

Edit: After all legalities are dealt with first.

[Ocean1]

No, I was quite serious.

Then you’re more full of it than I’d previously given you credit for.


I don't see it as a gamble.

No?


when I go for a ride, I'm consciously backing myself to stay in one piece.

Sure sounds like it.

Unless by backing yourself you mean having done something significant or extraordinary to improve your chances of avoiding an incident.

If so then how’s that worked out, dude? what’s your batting average?


People who are invested in their self-image as a motorcyclist and who stubbornly ignore the fact that they suck at it - those people tend to die.

And, given that above performance, how do you see yourself in terms of your ability to avoid crashes? Above average?

Listen, dude, we’ve all got our takes on how shit works, some are more qualified to hold those views than others, but leave it. What I find offensive is the disrespect you show the dead. Or even just the slightly bruised. I shouldn’t have to explain why, sufficient to say that if I had known any of the recently departed well I’d probably be seeking some sort of explanation for it.

Enough.

[jrandom]

I'm upset.

I hear ya. I'm not looking to create negative emotions in people just for the sake of it. Peace out.

[steve_t]

isn't that the human condition? not just motorcyclists - our ego wants us to be told I'm ok - and motorcyclists have some fucking big egos


Freud theorized on this....

"Super-ego" :msn-wink: well, not really but it sounds like it fits :niceone:

[James Deuce]

I hear ya. I'm not looking to create negative emotions in people just for the sake of it. Peace out.
Bullshit. This is the normal wriggle you do when you've got your jollies.

[MrKiwi]

...
Listen, dude, we’ve all got our takes on how shit works, some are more qualified to hold those views than others, but leave it. What I find offensive is the disrespect you show the dead. Or even just the slightly bruised. I shouldn’t have to explain why, sufficient to say that if I had known any of the recently departed well I’d probably be seeking some sort of explanation for it.

Enough.

Precisely, well said...

[Zedder]

These crash investigation reports are given to the families involved, the coroners and other relevant parties. They contain personal information, witness statements, photos, specific crash details, scene investigation, expert analysis, calculations, legal status of vehicles, vehicle inspectors report, actually not pleasant, at all.

So specific crash reports are not out there for public access, unless the family see fit to release them in "public interest".

Edit: After all legalities are dealt with first.

Thanks. I fully understand about unpleasant details and concern for the families but it's interesting that the Civil Aviation Authority, on the other hand, allows free access to air accident reports (with irrelevant info deleted of course) in the interests of education. That's the point Newbould and I were making, it's about learning from the incident.

[jrandom]

Bullshit. This is the normal wriggle you do when you've got your jollies.

No, it's the wriggle I do when people start responding emotionally rather than addressing the meat of the issue.

I prefer to save my managing-other-people's-emotions-for-them communication filtering skills (I do have those skills, it's just that they take a lot of effort to use) for the missus. The likes of you and Ocean1 just get the raw thought-stuff straight up via my keyboard. If it happens to piss you off, I can just shrug and ignore it - I don't need you for sex later in the evening.

:sunny:

[Genestho]

Thanks. I fully understand about unpleasant details and concern for the families but it's interesting that the Civil Aviation Authority, on the other hand, allows free access to air accident reports (with irrelevant info deleted of course) in the interests of education. That's the point Newbould and I were making, it's about learning from the incident.

I don't know what's specifically in a civil aviation report whether the specific crash data etc is there or whether it is more like a coroner report which becomes more of an overview of the incident and crash with recommendations attached, coroners reports are made public so, that bit there I know is similar.

Perhaps the level of detail and private information is the difference, in what's made public.

[arcane12]

I'm probably doing a stupid thing chiming in on a heated debate over a topic like this but here goes. (call me stupid, I dares ya!)

I think what Random is trying to say (my opinion of what I am reading) is that when he is out on a bike he feels he has the skills to keep himself safe and out of danger, so it's not a gamble (not a 50/50 flip), but a solid backing of good odds. Yes, there is the chance of something happenning, but there is in a car. Or going for a walk. At some point you have to say - I understand the risk and accept it. If a rider does not have the skill, and/or physical ability, then perhaps riding is not for him.

On the other hand it is a sensitive issue and could have perhaps been handled a little better. I don't know if I could have done that while still bringing to light an important safety concern, and spark a good healthy debate about something that should be important to all riders, and all transport users.

Now, who else can I piss off? I could start disrespecting peoples mothers? You know, 'yo momma so...', nah I got nothing.

I wanted to stay silent, but what with the news recently, I feel this is a topic that can't be swept under the rug. :no:

[gloplg]

it's about learning from the incident.

+ one. Before I become a statistic.

[Katman]

I feel this is a topic that can't be swept under the rug.

Unfortunately there's plenty here though who would like nothing more than that.

The reality is that until we start trying a little harder our piss poor statistics ain't going to improve any.

[Zedder]

I don't know what's specifically in a civil aviation report whether the specific crash data etc is there or whether it is more like a coroner report which becomes more of an overview of the incident and crash with recommendations attached, coroners reports are made public so, that bit there I know is similar.

Perhaps the level of detail and private information is the difference, in what's made public.

Air accident reports are quite detailed and more like an inquest with regard to their depth of information. Among other things, info on the history of the flight, aircraft and pilot and also meteorological data plus any facts about the terrain or environment are listed.

The report is overseen by an Air Accident Inspector who, unlike a coroner, isn't just concerned with medical reasons.

[Swoop]

And of course, you're certain that everyone on that ride was riding with absolute concentration on what they were doing?
"Riding with absolute concentration on what they were doing".
Strangely I was wondering what would be said/posted if you were killed in a motorcycle "accident". Suddenly there was a "Katman down" thread here and others would have belived you would have done everything possible to avoid being in that situation to begin with, but events occured. Possible? I think yes, since your demerits seem to indicate that you hadn't anticipated tax collectors to be in certain locations at certain times in the past, so possibility indicates that guano "can happen".

Lets hope it doesn't happen, as adding to our statistics wouldn't be a good look.

[Katman]

Possible? I think yes, since your demerits seem to indicate that you hadn't anticipated tax collectors to be in certain locations at certain times in the past


I think you're clutching at straws.

(And btw, I'm back to a clean license - thanks for asking).

[Swoop]

I think you're clutching at straws.
That was in all sincerity.
Possibilities exist, as much as we do not like to admit it.

[Howie]

Good question. The only info (stats etc) I've ever found was on the NZ Police site. There's no actual report on any specific incident that I could see though: https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/resources/strategic/road-policing-strategic-plan-2011-2015.pdf

You will find very few details of accidents involving private vehicles in the public domain.


Thanks. I fully understand about unpleasant details and concern for the families but it's interesting that the Civil Aviation Authority, on the other hand, allows free access to air accident reports (with irrelevant info deleted of course) in the interests of education. That's the point Newbould and I were making, it's about learning from the incident.


I don't know what's specifically in a civil aviation report whether the specific crash data etc is there or whether it is more like a coroner report which becomes more of an overview of the incident and crash with recommendations attached, coroners reports are made public so, that bit there I know is similar.

Perhaps the level of detail and private information is the difference, in what's made public.

You can find a lot of reports regarding Aviation, Rail, and Marine incidents on on the Transport accident investigation commission site. http://www.taic.org.nz/Home/tabid/36/language/en-NZ/Default.aspx Most Reports take a couple of years to complete for serious incidents.

[jrandom]

your demerits seem to indicate that you hadn't anticipated tax collectors to be in certain locations at certain times in the past

Without actually knowing, it wouldn't surprise me if Katman's demerits were acquired the same way that I acquired all but ten of the demerit points that got me a 3-month licence suspension a few years back - while driving a car.

Amazing how easy it is to get sloppy while driving cars, innit?

[jrandom]

(And btw, I'm back to a clean license - thanks for asking).

After three years of a pristine licence, I'm back on 35 points after getting pinged doing 71 in a temporary 50.

(In a work ute on the SH1 Atiamuri bridge, shortly before construction started on the new one - the highway patrol fellas decided, after literally years of ignoring that temporary 50, to turn up and give it some enforcement to make everyone aware of the construction project's commencement. The demerit points burn even more because I have trouble disagreeing with the logic of that.)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Amazing how easy it is to get sloppy while driving cars, innit?

Back yourself to not have a serious accident whilst being 'sloppy' behind the wheel of a killing machine?:shifty:

[jrandom]

Back yourself to not have a serious accident whilst being 'sloppy' behind the wheel of a killing machine?:shifty:

I've learned a lot about driving cars in the last few years.

:yes:

(Apart from, obviously, not slowing down all the way to the posted speed in temporary-speed-limit areas!)

[jrandom]

To be honest, I think that it's sensible to interpret any decision to operate a vehicle on the road as implying that the pilot is "backing themselves not to have a serious accident".

Surely that statement can't be argued with?

[Swoop]

Amazing how easy it is to get sloppy while driving cars, innit?
Any form of road transport.

Which generates the question.

[scumdog]

To be honest, I think that it's sensible to interpret any decision to operate a vehicle on the road as implying that the pilot is "backing themselves not to have a serious accident".

Surely that statement can't be argued with?

Pfft, they mostly don't even thnk enough to 'back themselves not to have a serious accident'.
WTF? 'serious accident'? - it should be ANY accident - mostly they aren't. ('Accidents' that is)

No more than when they're walking and 'back themselves not to fall', thye just don't think about it - a lot of the time they plain don't think.....

[Genestho]

Air accident reports are quite detailed and more like an inquest with regard to their depth of information. Among other things, info on the history of the flight, aircraft and pilot and also meteorological data plus any facts about the terrain or environment are listed.

The report is overseen by an Air Accident Inspector who, unlike a coroner, isn't just concerned with medical reasons. Again, I'm not knowledgable about aviation crash investigations nor the level of details, but...... no, a coroner's not just concerned with medical reasons at all.

A coroners job, at an inquest is to find out "how can incidents like this be prevented from happening again", and then attaching recommendations at any level right up to legislative level now, lol.

Medical reasoning is yet another seperate report altogether - requiring a medical dictionary, which then becomes a small part of the overview from the coroners report, yes, let's call it the Inquest report.

The inquest /coronial report which as I posted earlier is usually available in the public domain is nowhere near, not even close to being as detailed as the complete crash investigation report. A coroners report is a summary of police, medical, crash analysis, pathology, statements, so it doesn't have the level of detail referred to in a crash investigation Not in my experience anyway. :)

[Bass]

IMHO we could learn a lot from how aviation accidents are handled. The CAA publishes a regular magazine which is circulated free to all registered aircraft owners. The last few pages of this mag contain summaries of all the NZ aviation accidents since the last publication. Names and places are deleted and only a succinct summary of the sequence of events given. No conclusions are drawn although they are usually self evident. You would be amazed at how many aviation incidents there are where aircraft are significantly damaged, but the people walk away.
I would like to see something similar for bikes on-line. It would be far too much to ask for all accidents to be included but just the fatals would be doable. The information is out there, just not readily available and as aviation has shown, sensibilities can be protected.


It seems to me that much of this thread is an argument between those who would have us respect the dead and those who insist that we ask the embarrassing questions in the hope that there is something to be learned. I am firmly with the latter group to the extent that if I ever die on a motorcycle, I want it investigated as clinically as possible and the results published with no thought given to my family's feelings. I have told them so too. I believe that feelings are tenuous things that pass with time and if the knowledge gained can help someone else survive, well that's way more important.

[Zedder]

Again, I'm not knowledgable about aviation crash investigations nor the level of details, but...... no, a coroner's not just concerned with medical reasons at all.

A coroners job, at an inquest is to find out "how can incidents like this be prevented from happening again", and then attaching recommendations at any level right up to legislative level now, lol.

Medical reasoning is yet another seperate report altogether - requiring a medical dictionary, which then becomes a small part of the overview from the coroners report, yes, let's call it the Inquest report.

The inquest report which as I posted earlier is usually available in the public domain is nowhere near, not even close to being as detailed concerning the crash investigation report. Not in my experience anyway. :)

We're not exactly talking apples for apples here and no I didn't mean medical reasoning (reasons) but I do mean what Bass is saying ie, We can learn from aviation regarding accident investigation. Cheers.

[Genestho]

We're not exactly talking apples for apples here and no I didn't mean medical reasoning (reasons) but I do mean what Bass is saying ie, We can learn from aviation regarding accident investigation. Cheers.
Lol ok, confused over your reference to medical.

I agree that perhaps an online database of basic info could be relevant, any case referred to the coroner ie fatal - is available publically already, as to injuries I'd suspect the same but couldn't confirm that. The only new thing is collation and family permissions, write to the Transport Minister?

What I had suggested to Steven Joyce a few years back was a website much like Queensland transport that published stories from families or emergency workers, the information becomes more personal and you're not grappling with privacy act issues, it's also cathartic for survivors, family members or emergency workers, or even witnesses, Mr Joyce was keen on that approach, I just ran out of arms and time. :)

[oneofsix]

We're not exactly talking apples for apples here and no I didn't mean medical reasoning (reasons) but I do mean what Bass is saying ie, We can learn from aviation regarding accident investigation. Cheers.

learn from others :lol: individuals struggle with that one and all officialdom seems to be able to do is learn to make the same mistakes others have already made. :bleh:

Vic roads learnt not to put road furniture close to the edge of the road, allow recovery space. Did NZTA learn from this? I see today on SH58, half a metre road side of an armco barrier there is now a series of upright plastic posts. Fuck if I know what happens when you hit them but they are so close to the road edge it will happen and I can't imagine you will still be upright afterwards. Also don't mention hw great they will be for target fixation. :wari:

Whilst you are right don't hold your breath as it costs money and might show that not every crash can be blamed on the driver just like the aviation industry learnt the pilots weren't as much to blame as they used to think. They also learnt how to make it easier for the pilots ot make the correct decisions (TV is always correct, right?)

[Howie]

IMHO we could learn a lot from how aviation accidents are handled. The CAA publishes a regular magazine which is circulated free to all registered aircraft owners. The last few pages of this mag contain summaries of all the NZ aviation accidents since the last publication.


There are these reports available through the NZTA, They show a few of the findings, and are broken down to Regions. http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/crash-analysis-reports/briefing-notes.html?page=10&TopicID=0&ReportYear=2012&RegionID=0&LocalAreaID=0

[Genestho]

Something I just remembered, didn't BRONZ run their own stats for a while, does anyone know if they still do? :)

[FJRider]

Vic roads learnt not to put road furniture close to the edge of the road, allow recovery space. Did NZTA learn from this? I see today on SH58, half a metre road side of an armco barrier there is now a series of upright plastic posts. Fuck if I know what happens when you hit them but they are so close to the road edge it will happen and I can't imagine you will still be upright afterwards. Also don't mention hw great they will be for target fixation. :wari:



There is ALWAYS a heap of stuff on the side of the road that may cause you pain/bother if you "fall" on it ...

The secret is to AVOID falling on "it" ... If you see stuff on the side of the road you DON'T want to "fall on" .. then you take all practicable steps to avoid doing so.

This MAY also include ... slowing down. It has been always the recommended first step in the attempt to not "fall onto" stuff ...

Some may even believe your NOT slowing down ... is an indication of your intent to "fall on" stuff ...


Just saying ...

[Zedder]

learn from others :lol: individuals struggle with that one and all officialdom seems to be able to do is learn to make the same mistakes others have already made. :bleh:

Vic roads learnt not to put road furniture close to the edge of the road, allow recovery space. Did NZTA learn from this? I see today on SH58, half a metre road side of an armco barrier there is now a series of upright plastic posts. Fuck if I know what happens when you hit them but they are so close to the road edge it will happen and I can't imagine you will still be upright afterwards. Also don't mention hw great they will be for target fixation. :wari:

Whilst you are right don't hold your breath as it costs money and might show that not every crash can be blamed on the driver just like the aviation industry learnt the pilots weren't as much to blame as they used to think. They also learnt how to make it easier for the pilots ot make the correct decisions (TV is always correct, right?)

I know what you mean about learn from others there Oo6. I've just got back from Oz which is where we get our roading specs, transport and traffic policies from under the Austroads deal.

As far as pilots go though, they used to actually make a lot of mistakes and that's why courses such as Cockpit Resource Management were introduced.

[Ocean1]

If you see stuff on the side of the road you DON'T want to "fall on" .. then you take all practicable steps to avoid doing so.


Very good point. Big enough chainsaw I reckon I could cut the fucking stuff down faster than they can put it up.

[FJRider]

Very good point. Big enough chainsaw I reckon I could cut the fucking stuff down faster than they can put it up.

I have personally used such tactics in the past to good effect ... when it was required ... :devil2:

[Usarka]

What's the difference between "backing yourself" and "it won't happen to me"?

[Drew]

After three years of a pristine licence, I'm back on 35 points after getting pinged doing 71 in a temporary 50.

(In a work ute on the SH1 Atiamuri bridge, shortly before construction started on the new one - the highway patrol fellas decided, after literally years of ignoring that temporary 50, to turn up and give it some enforcement to make everyone aware of the construction project's commencement. The demerit points burn even more because I have trouble disagreeing with the logic of that.)
I've gone three years without ticket too, but I admit it's mostly luck. Arguing that it is skill, is just more of your usual bullshit.

[Drew]

What's the difference between "backing yourself" and "it won't happen to me"?Good fucking question...

Delusion mostly, I think.

[FJRider]

What's the difference between "backing yourself" and "it won't happen to me"?

KNOWING .... it "can't/WONT happen to me" ..

Backing yourself is just an act of confidence ... and (often) even confident riders crash ...

[Mom]

What's the difference between "backing yourself" and "it won't happen to me"?

I back myself as an experienced rider. I make mistakes as we all do (though apparently there are a few that dont) I have been fortunate enough to have got away with each and every one of them. I have one that still haunts me, I came so close.

BUT, I actually do back myself. I dont hold with it will NEVER happen to me, but I try my best to not place myself in a position that makes me vulnerable.

I dont take risks, I dont push my limits, I dont go out of my way to piss people off, but...

There by the grace of God go I. I take my chances, I back myself, and hope my skills and experience will prevent it from happening to me.

As a mother, I have developed eyes in the back of my head, not sure if that helps :lol:

[Edbear]

I think most of us rely on mirrors for that which may not be as effective...

[FJRider]

As a mother, I have developed eyes in the back of my head, not sure if that helps :lol:

I just listen to the voices ... :weird:

[pritch]

To be honest, I think that it's sensible to interpret any decision to operate a vehicle on the road as implying that the pilot is "backing themselves not to have a serious accident".

Surely that statement can't be argued with?

On the contrary, the statement indicates a lack of even basic understanding of what is actually happening.

If you climb a high tree, look down and feel compelled to hold on tight, that's because evolution has taught us that a fall will hurt.
Nothing in the evolution of humans has prepared us for motor vehicles. Many (most) road users fail to link their actions with any possible consequences.

Combine that with the minimal skills of most NZ road users and be afraid. Be very afraid.

That way you may just survive the lottery...

[newbould]

IMHO we could learn a lot from how aviation accidents are handled. The CAA publishes a regular magazine which is circulated free to all registered aircraft owners. The last few pages of this mag contain summaries of all the NZ aviation accidents since the last publication. Names and places are deleted and only a succinct summary of the sequence of events given. No conclusions are drawn although they are usually self evident. You would be amazed at how many aviation incidents there are where aircraft are significantly damaged, but the people walk away.
I would like to see something similar for bikes on-line. It would be far too much to ask for all accidents to be included but just the fatals would be doable. The information is out there, just not readily available and as aviation has shown, sensibilities can be protected.


.

and
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/crash-analysis-reports/docs/briefing-notes/2012-otago-dunedin-city-motorcyclists.pdf
and
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcyclist-crash-statistics-2011-(1).pdf

are all useful and relevant. Perhaps Mr Kiwi could take this to motonz

[FJRider]

Many (most) road users fail to link their actions with any possible consequences.

Combine that with the minimal skills of most NZ road users and be afraid. Be very afraid.



If you think of those actions being possible factors in an accident ... it gives cause for thought ...

People that are afraid ... think more ...

On the road ... there is nothing that scares you more ... than the knowledge that your own ability and skill ... might not be enough to keep you alive.

[Genestho]

and
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/crash-analysis-reports/docs/briefing-notes/2012-otago-dunedin-city-motorcyclists.pdf
and
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcyclist-crash-statistics-2011-(1).pdf

are all useful and relevant. Perhaps Mr Kiwi could take this to motonz

Lol. :facepalm:

[Berries]

and
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/crash-analysis-reports/docs/briefing-notes/2012-otago-dunedin-city-motorcyclists.pdf
and
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcyclist-crash-statistics-2011-(1).pdf

are all useful and relevant. Perhaps Mr Kiwi could take this to motonz
The MOT document may contain some useful information/statistical breakdowns but doesn't go in to much detail. The other report is template driven rubbish - 100% of motorcycle crashes involve motorcycles apparently. Who'd a thunk it?

The problem is that the majority of crashes involving motorbikes are not investigated to a level that people on here are asking for, certainly nowhere near what the CAA produce. If it is fatal and the serious crash unit are involved then it is looked at in much greater detail. Otherwise it is luck of the draw as to what is recorded on the crash report and what goes in to producing the reports linked above. Unfortunately when you see what basic and obvious information can be missing from the crash report it doesn't give you much hope that a lot of analysis went in to it.

Considering that TPTB have made it appear that they care by releasing the Safer Motorcycling guide I am sure that if a request was made to the right person in the right tone a summary of all SCU or Coroners reports for all fatal motorcycle reports could be easily produced.

[Genestho]

The MOT document may contain some useful information/statistical breakdowns but doesn't go in to much detail. The other report is template driven rubbish - 100% of motorcycle crashes involve motorcycles apparently. Who'd a thunk it?

The problem is that the majority of crashes involving motorbikes are not investigated to a level that people on here are asking for, certainly nowhere near what the CAA produce. If it is fatal and the serious crash unit are involved then it is looked at in much greater detail. Otherwise it is luck of the draw as to what is recorded on the crash report and what goes in to producing the reports linked above. Unfortunately when you see what basic and obvious information can be missing from the crash report it doesn't give you much hope that a lot of analysis went in to it.

Considering that TPTB have made it appear that they care by releasing the Safer Motorcycling guide I am sure that if a request was made to the right person in the right tone a summary of all SCU or Coroners reports for all fatal motorcycle reports could be easily produced.

It doesn't even need a right tone, ANYONE can request the coronial info...there's links and stuff too.... http://www.justice.govt.nz/courts/coroners-court/recommendations-register-data

http://www.justice.govt.nz/courts/coroners-court/coronial-data-collection/application-how-do-i-access-new-zealands-coronial-data
http://www.justice.govt.nz/courts/coroners-court/coronial-data-collection/how-do-i-access-new-zealand2019s-coronial-data

There's also requests under the Official Information Act. I'd wager SCU data is easy enough to get to as well :)

[Berries]

There's also requests under the Official Information Act. I'd wager SCU data is easy enough to get to as well :)
Well it is not as if 'they' are trying to hide anything, it is just that the information has never been put together in one package that might be of use.

[Genestho]

Well it is not as if 'they' are trying to hide anything, it is just that the information has never been put together in one package that might be of use.

Perzackery. :) I remember the info was even harder to track down back near 5 years ago, statistics were shocking too. I remember copying the jpeg '05 and '06 stats from the transport site and they were exactly the same lol.

They've definately gotten better at it (It being; bringing info into public domain). Maybe it's also a volume issue, how many aviation crashes vs road crashes need investigating...

[Bass]

Well it is not as if 'they' are trying to hide anything, it is just that the information has never been put together in one package that might be of use.

Bingo!
That is just one area where CAA are way ahead.
The other is that they just tell it like it was and make no attempt to apportion fault or blame

[James Deuce]

The MOT document may contain some useful information/statistical breakdowns but doesn't go in to much detail. The other report is template driven rubbish - 100% of motorcycle crashes involve motorcycles apparently. Who'd a thunk it?

The problem is that the majority of crashes involving motorbikes are not investigated to a level that people on here are asking for, certainly nowhere near what the CAA produce. If it is fatal and the serious crash unit are involved then it is looked at in much greater detail. Otherwise it is luck of the draw as to what is recorded on the crash report and what goes in to producing the reports linked above. Unfortunately when you see what basic and obvious information can be missing from the crash report it doesn't give you much hope that a lot of analysis went in to it.

Considering that TPTB have made it appear that they care by releasing the Safer Motorcycling guide I am sure that if a request was made to the right person in the right tone a summary of all SCU or Coroners reports for all fatal motorcycle reports could be easily produced.

Also bear in mind that first responders are attempting to gauge the status of an accident victim or two and the detail they are more interested in is how to extract those people from the situation before they die. The cop who ordered a helicopter for me was brilliant, and possibly saved my life as there is no telling how a 1.5hr ambulance ride with 10 broken ribs and fluctuating blood pressure would have gone. I've also seen SCU guys turn up to hospital to check up on people. Sometimes the accident detail comes second to making sure people are looked after properly, especially for people who have a large area to cover. They may bounce from accident to accident and often when they arrive people and vehicles have been moved for safety's sake, making it harder to work out what went on.

[jrandom]

I've gone three years without ticket too, but I admit it's mostly luck. Arguing that it is skill, is just more of your usual bullshit.

Hmmm. I'll try and be more precise than that. Tickets are a red herring; I didn't say anything about 'skill' reducing tickets (although, of course, if you don't break the law, you won't get ticketed - right?) I'm arguing that:

- Skill (ability to control a machine, and ability to think about what's going on around you) is inversely proportionate to the chance of binning on the road.

- ... yeah, that's about it.

The above seems such a truism that I'm not sure what else there is to say, other than everyone calling me a cunt. Which should be old news, anyhow.

:sunny:

[jrandom]

Nothing in the evolution of humans has prepared us for motor vehicles.

This is true. But we have a lot of very trainable flexibility. We didn't evolve to play the piano, either, but it's amazing what humans can do if they put their minds to it.


Many (most) road users fail to link their actions with any possible consequences.

Yeah. That would be humans not putting their minds to it, I guess.

[oneofsix]

Also bear in mind that first responders are attempting to gauge the status of an accident victim or two and the detail they are more interested in is how to extract those people from the situation before they die. The cop who ordered a helicopter for me was brilliant, and possibly saved my life as there is no telling how a 1.5hr ambulance ride with 10 broken ribs and fluctuating blood pressure would have gone. I've also seen SCU guys turn up to hospital to check up on people. Sometimes the accident detail comes second to making sure people are looked after properly, especially for people who have a large area to cover. They may bounce from accident to accident and often when they arrive people and vehicles have been moved for safety's sake, making it harder to work out what went on.

Your last point is a big telling factor in the difference between aviation crash investigation and road crash investigation. I guess there is pressure on aviation to clear the scene so "normality" can return but they seems to have days as opposed to on the road where they have have minutes, sometimes those minutes stretch to hours but within 24 hours. And there are no black boxes, which would be a double edged sword.

[SMOKEU]

So the NZTA says that on a motorcycle you're 23 times more likely to get pwned than a cager over the same distance.

[oneofsix]

So the NZTA says that on a motorcycle you're 23 times more likely to get pwned than a cager over the same distance.

23 times now, any advances on 23? Do I here 30? :laugh:

[arcane12]

So the NZTA says that on a motorcycle you're 23 times more likely to get pwned than a cager over the same distance.

Ah stats. You fickle mistress. Of course it has nothing to do with the types of people who choose to ride at all. Just bikes are evil, grr grr grr. Of course I am not saying you aren't more likely to get seriously hurt/die on a bike vs car, but the mode of transport is only one factor.

PS.

As I saw on some stats recently, I will be twice as likely to die on a bike once I hit 40, that I am now.

[jrandom]

So the NZTA says that on a motorcycle you're 23 times more likely to get pwned than a cager over the same distance.

Sounds about right.

[Bassmatt]

So the NZTA says that on a motorcycle you're 23 times more likely to get pwned than a cager over the same distance.

Sweet. By my calculations I now have millions of worry free km's of car driving ahead of me.

[BoristheBiter]

Amazing how easy it is to get sloppy while driving cars, innit?

Funny that as I have found since riding on the road my driving has got better.

[jrandom]

Funny that as I have found since riding on the road my driving has got better.

Yes, most folk experience that. Good onya, keep it up.

:niceone:

[Zedder]

Your last point is a big telling factor in the difference between aviation crash investigation and road crash investigation. I guess there is pressure on aviation to clear the scene so "normality" can return but they seems to have days as opposed to on the road where they have have minutes, sometimes those minutes stretch to hours but within 24 hours. And there are no black boxes, which would be a double edged sword.

'Morning Six. From what I understand, there is no pressure on aviation crash investigators to clear the scene. They, like police, have the authority to close off access to the whole area if necessary while they work. A lot of aircraft accidents though happen in isolated areas. Usually, only commercial aircraft carry black boxes so it does take longer with private aircraft accidents due to lack of data.

An ex colleague of mine arrived at the scene of a fatality early this year only minutes after the crash and was told by the cop who arrived to manage the scene it would be 3 hours minimum before the road was open again even after emergency services had carried out their duties which happened within 10 minutes. He said one side of the road was actually clear and the vehicles were over almost on to the shoulder so he took the 3 hours as being standard investigation procedure before the tow trucks were called in.

[oneofsix]

'Morning Six. From what I understand, there is no pressure on aviation crash investigators to clear the scene. They, like police, have the authority to close off access to the whole area if necessary while they work. A lot of aircraft accidents though happen in isolated areas. Usually, only commercial aircraft carry black boxes so it does take longer with private aircraft accidents due to lack of data.

An ex colleague of mine arrived at the scene of a fatality early this year only minutes after the crash and was told by the cop who arrived to manage the scene it would be 3 hours minimum before the road was open again even after emergency services had carried out their duties which happened within 10 minutes. He said one side of the road was actually clear and the vehicles were over almost on to the shoulder so he took the 3 hours as being standard investigation procedure before the tow trucks were called in.

yes we are seeing more of that where as in the past it would have been get the victims out, throw around some paint marks and get the road cleared. Whilst the SCU do try to take more time over what happened, how, there is the pressure of the traffic waiting for that 3 hours and commercial implications to it which you don't have with an aircraft in some remote location. Even if the road is remote chances are it is the only access and therefore the pressure of cutting people off.
The other point is we are still in the blame the driver phase whereas aviation seems to have moved to the open question of what happened and how can we help prevent a re-occurrence , can't fix the pilot but we may be able to assist them type thinking.

[Zedder]

yes we are seeing more of that where as in the past it would have been get the victims out, throw around some paint marks and get the road cleared. Whilst the SCU do try to take more time over what happened, how, there is the pressure of the traffic waiting for that 3 hours and commercial implications to it which you don't have with an aircraft in some remote location. Even if the road is remote chances are it is the only access and therefore the pressure of cutting people off.
The other point is we are still in the blame the driver phase whereas aviation seems to have moved to the open question of what happened and how can we help prevent a re-occurrence , can't fix the pilot but we may be able to assist them type thinking.

There's hope for us all Six.

[FJRider]

The other point is we are still in the blame the driver phase whereas aviation seems to have moved to the open question of what happened and how can we help prevent a re-occurrence , can't fix the pilot but we may be able to assist them type thinking.

To my knowledge ... the van driver hasn't been charged ... or even stated they will be likely to do so.

The only people that have attributed blame to him ... were people that weren't there, and don't know what actually happened ... at the time.

Blame based entirely on information provided by various media.

[oneofsix]

To my knowledge ... the van driver hasn't been charged ... or even stated they will be likely to do so.

The only people that have attributed blame to him ... were people that weren't there, and don't know what actually happened ... at the time.

Blame based entirely on information provided by various media.

Driver was in a general sense in that discussion and used in a way that could also apply to the riders or the rumoured "other" vehicle. I was not saying blame had been attributed but that the focus will be on all the vehicle operators (see driver is much easier) and other factors are often overlooked or not given enough weight in hope that somehow we can change humans. I was using driver in the sense that aviation uses pilot.

[FJRider]

Driver was in a general sense in that discussion and used in a way that could also apply to the riders or the rumoured "other" vehicle. I was not saying blame had been attributed but that the focus will be on all the vehicle operators (see driver is much easier) and other factors are often overlooked or not given enough weight in hope that somehow we can change humans. I was using driver in the sense that aviation uses pilot.

When the SCU is involved ... the cause of the accident is determined before any charges are laid. In some cases ... all vehicle "operators" involved may/can be charged if they were in part responsible for the accident. Even if it's just "driving without due care" ...

The police usual statement is after less serious accidents is .. "charges are likely" ... (unless guilt is obvious to the officers there at the time)

[oneofsix]

When the SCU is involved ... the cause of the accident is determined before any charges are laid. In some cases ... all vehicle "operators" involved may/can be charged if they were in part responsible for the accident. Even if it's just "driving without due care" ...

The police usual statement is after less serious accidents is .. "charges are likely" ... (unless guilt is obvious to the officers there at the time)

But see you are coming back to load all the blame on the driver where as aviation will also fix the contributing factors like control panel layout or approach vector, translate to road users as road layout, and aviation fix them much quicker than the roads etc are fixed even though the death rate on the roads is so much higher.

[FJRider]

But see you are coming back to load all the blame on the driver where as aviation will also fix the contributing factors like control panel layout or approach vector, translate to road users as road layout, and aviation fix them much quicker than the roads etc are fixed even though the death rate on the roads is so much higher.

I think that's because more idiots are on the roads ... than in the air ...

In serious aviation accidents ... blame isn't as urgent as the guilty are usually dead.

Less serious accidents/incidents ... the guilty know already, and usually few of the general public know anything has occurred .... until it is reported in the medias.

Either on the road or in the air ... if the vehicle operators choose to ignore any rules or recommendations ... until they are reported, or an incident occurs ... those operators will continue to ignore the rules and recommendations if they choose.

Company policy's are not always law ... (on the roads or in the air) and dismissal may be the only end result in such cases.

[Katman]

where as aviation will also fix the contributing factors like control panel layout

Be careful what you wish for.

They may start producing motorcycles that operate themselves without any need for rider input.

[FJRider]

Be careful what you wish for.

They may start producing motorcycles that operate themselves without any rider input.

Build a bike any fool can ride ... and only fools will ride them. :laugh:

Sales will soar .... <_<

[Genestho]

I think that's because more idiots are on the roads ... than in the air ...

In serious aviation accidents ... blame isn't as urgent as the guilty are usually dead.

Less serious accidents/incidents ... the guilty know already, and usually few of the general public know anything has occurred .... until it is reported in the medias.

Either on the road or in the air ... if the vehicle operators choose to ignore any rules or recommendations ... until they are reported, or an incident occurs ... those operators will continue to ignore the rules and recommendations if they choose.

Company policy's are not always law ... (on the roads or in the air) and dismissal may be the only end result in such cases.

Also planes aren't as accessable if you don't have a license as an example, any old little Johnny that didn't pass his license can't just go take the ole man's plane out, or go buy a cheap plane as a runabout.

You earn your license, you pay for it in spades. There's not the crossection of personalities in planes as there are on the roads. Quite a bit of difference really.

[FJRider]

You earn your license, you pay for it in spades.

Therein lies the key to it ... the effort required to gain a pilots license ... as opposed to gaining a car/bike license.

Most pilots wont risk losing their license to fly by making stupid decisions ... but they know wrong decisions will kill them.

Road users know wrong decisions MAY kill them ... maybe ... if they are unlucky ... maybe .. !!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Be careful what you wish for.

They may start producing motorcycles that operate themselves without any need for rider input.

Pretty sure we'll have compulsary ABS before long.

[Genestho]

Therein lies the key to it ... the effort required to gain a pilots license ... as opposed to gaining a car/bike license.

Most pilots wont risk losing their license to fly by making stupid decisions ... but they know wrong decisions will kill them.

Road users know wrong decisions MAY kill them ... maybe ... if they are unlucky ... maybe .. !!

Effort and costs are a huge part and I suspect the type of personality as well.

Funny isn't it; death is death by whatever vehicle, very much a possibility on the roads, more so by law of averages, in the air - less so by alttitude and landing speed..
But a Pilot will view his position as important, the carrying of his passengers a priority of importance and there's an utmost respect (quite rightly so) for his machine.

[oneofsix]

Be careful what you wish for.

They may start producing motorcycles that operate themselves without any need for rider input.

Sadly that is better than the alternative which could happen when cars without driver input become common, removal of bikes altogether. Now that would be a crying shame. But I was talking redesign not removal.

Crasher, How does ABS go off-road on a bike?

[GTRMAN]

Pretty sure we'll have compulsary ABS before long.


That can't be a bad thing for road bikes though....even if you are uber vigilant and mindful of your situation as the learned mr Katman espouses. Anything that gives you the edge or a help when you grab a fist full of brake has to be good news.

That said, would it then make a generation of riders who don't know how to modulate brake pressure for the conditions?

And just like that another lid parts with a can..... would someone please get a broom for the worms before they make a mess.

[FJRider]

But a Pilot will view his position as important, the carrying of his passengers a priority of importance and there's an utmost respect (quite rightly so) for his machine.

Even simple things like low on fuel in an aircraft ... takes on a different perspective, than a biker would see on the road ... :laugh:

[Katman]

That said, would it then make a generation of riders who don't know how to modulate brake pressure for the conditions?


Yep, it's all in the name of catering to the dumbest common denominator.

[Genestho]

Even simple things like low on fuel in an aircraft ... takes on a different perspective, than a biker would see on the road ... :laugh:

lol, exactly - a whole different experience aye, imagine if it were thought if you didn't top your fuel up that you could likely be facing a life or death situation!!
Pretty sure the average user would never be up for that kinda responsibility :laugh:

[James Deuce]

lol, exactly - a whole different experience aye, imagine if it were thought if you didn't top your fuel up that you could likely be facing a life or death situation!!
Pretty sure the average user would never be up for that kinda responsibility :laugh:

It's the sort of responsibility I have to assume, because it's that level of stupid stuff that is most dangerous to me. I'll avoid the jack-knifed B-train sliding toward me, but half an orange tossed casually from a car traveling in the opposite direction will interface with my front tyre and the tarmac at precisely the moment I gently touch the brakes to avoid running too close to the car in front, causing me to lose the front, slide testicles first into road-side furniture where I can have a ringside seat of my bike cartwheeling to destruction before finally mounting the rear of an SUV and entering the passenger space resulting in a careless misuse causing injury charge for me, which will attract the maximum penalty, just because.

[Zedder]

lol, exactly - a whole different experience aye, imagine if it were thought if you didn't top your fuel up that you could likely be facing a life or death situation!!
Pretty sure the average user would never be up for that kinda responsibility :laugh:

It hasn't always been as involved to get a pilots licence or a motorbike licence in the past though. Aviation, due its critical nature and skills needed etc, has evolved considerablly. Having said that, the latest pilots licence available is a Recreational one and is cheaper and less complicated to get than the standard Private one. TPTB have weighed the risks and worked out the factors needed to make it as "safe as possible".

Also, the stages to a full motorbike licence certainly wasn't like that originally. It has evolved as well just like the need for a Serious Crash Unit being created.

[GTRMAN]

Yep, it's all in the name of catering to the dumbest common denominator.

Would you ride a bike with ABS?

[Road kill]

Pretty sure we'll have compulsary ABS before long.

I read an articile on an American bike site this morning about how it's under consideration over there right now.

Victoria will follow the American lead and we will be follow them not long after.

Give it five years max I'd say.

[Str8 Jacket]

I often say that I think people should have to ride a scooter for no less than 6 months and that they have to do an certain amount of km's on it prior to being eligible for a drivers licence. In my opinion it would make the majority of people more aware about what is going on around them and teach them to respect the road and other users, or Darwin's theory kicks in.

[FJRider]

I often say that I think people should have to ride a scooter for no less than 6 months and that they have to do an certain amount of km's on it prior to being eligible for a drivers licence. In my opinion it would make the majority of people more aware about what is going on around them and teach them to respect the road and other users, or Darwin's theory kicks in.

Good theory ... but the increased death rate would see scooters (motorcycles ??) banned ... and back to square one with cars ...

[Str8 Jacket]

Good theory ... but the increased death rate would see scooters (motorcycles ??) banned ... and back to square one with cars ...

Maybe, maybe not. Just a thought. Imagine NZ with less idiots on the road, no matter how it happened.... :msn-wink:

[FJRider]

Maybe, maybe not. Just a thought. Imagine NZ with less idiots on the road, no matter how it happened.... :msn-wink:

So ... we'd have less idiots ... by accident ... you mean ... ??? :killingme

[Crasherfromwayback]

Crasher, How does ABS go off-road on a bike?

Fucking useless.


That can't be a bad thing for road bikes though....even if you are uber vigilant and mindful of your situation as the learned mr Katman espouses. Anything that gives you the edge or a help when you grab a fist full of brake has to be good news.

That said, would it then make a generation of riders who don't know how to modulate brake pressure for the conditions?

And just like that another lid parts with a can..... would someone please get a broom for the worms before they make a mess.


I'd never buy a motorcycle with ABS. Each to their own though. It certainly helps certain people out without doubt.


Would you ride a bike with ABS?

Have done many times.

[Genestho]

Maybe, maybe not. Just a thought. Imagine NZ with less idiots on the road, no matter how it happened.... :msn-wink:
A bomb? We could call it "fireworks".... :devil2: Oh, whooooooops, wrong channel!! As you were :whistle:

[Genestho]

It's the sort of responsibility I have to assume, because it's that level of stupid stuff that is most dangerous to me. I'll avoid the jack-knifed B-train sliding toward me, but half an orange tossed casually from a car traveling in the opposite direction will interface with my front tyre and the tarmac at precisely the moment I gently touch the brakes to avoid running too close to the car in front, causing me to lose the front, slide testicles first into road-side furniture where I can have a ringside seat of my bike cartwheeling to destruction before finally mounting the rear of an SUV and entering the passenger space resulting in a careless misuse causing injury charge for me, which will attract the maximum penalty, just because.

Crikey Jim!! There's better things to be doing with oranges than falling testicles first off yer bike!!! But yes, point well made! :)


It hasn't always been as involved to get a pilots licence or a motorbike licence in the past though. Aviation, due its critical nature and skills needed etc, has evolved considerablly. Having said that, the latest pilots licence available is a Recreational one and is cheaper and less complicated to get than the standard Private one. TPTB have weighed the risks and worked out the factors needed to make it as "safe as possible".

Also, the stages to a full motorbike licence certainly wasn't like that originally. It has evolved as well just like the need for a Serious Crash Unit being created.
Yeah, I've seen a bit evolution go down, we've certainly come a long way :)

[GTRMAN]

Fucking useless.




I'd never buy a motorcycle with ABS. Each to their own though. It certainly helps certain people out without doubt.



Have done many times.

Ergo if ABS became mandatory you would never buy another bike?

[Katman]

Would you ride a bike with ABS?

As with Crasher I've ridden many bikes with ABS.

Would I own one?

I don't think there's any 30 year old bikes that had ABS.

[pritch]

This is true. But we have a lot of very trainable flexibility. We didn't evolve to play the piano, either, but it's amazing what humans can do if they put their minds to it.


Can imagine a lot of bad piano playing, but haven't heard of any fatal piano crashes being caused by that.

Then again, I'm not sure what the neighbours will make of my Strat? :Devil2:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Ergo if ABS became mandatory you would never buy another bike?

Well I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I don't have to own road bikes to ride 'em. But if I had to own my own...I'd not own one with ABS, and would get it disconnected if it was fitted with it.

But I'm happy doing my vintage moto-x thing for now...and they all have abs. Fucking near impossible to lock the front on 'em anyway!