Can I avoid the registration ripoff by getting a dealer plate?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I would have to register as a vehicle trader, but since I would be the worst "dealer" in the world because I can't ever sell for more than I buy for, it might work out?

just an idle thought.....

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/registration-licensing/traders.html#status

[SMOKEU]

This thread is going to be so full of win, I can just tell for some reason.

[Hobbyhorse]

Good thinking!!

Rhys

[pzkpfw]

There are some very specific rules for usage of dealer plates. e.g. no personal use of vehicle.

You might get away with it, the way some people got away with registering their vehicles as Hearses for a while.

But it's not a "loophole" that guarantees what you want.

[Voltaire]

Reminds me of when I was in Ireland and the CEO of Ryan Air bought a taxi so he could use the bus/taxi lanes around Dublin...he got away with it as he had it set up with a meter and would stop from time to time to pick up punters.....

[Akzle]

...why pay anything for any licence or "registration"?
you'd have to be "self employed" - contract with your current boss to be a contractor, then find some other work to do, claim all your KMs, coffee, tea, milo, power bill, internet and phone etc.
if you play the game right, the IRD pay you, every year.

(not, of course, that i'd advocate using the crime/taxation system in this way.)


You might get away with it, the way some people got away with registering their vehicles as Hearses for a while.

But it's not a "loophole" that guarantees what you want.

and still do. it's not JUST a hearse it's "hearse / non commercial ambulance" so if you're not driving in commerce (as most people typically aren't, but they don't know that) then it's the only class that fits... when i need to rego the bike i'm probably going to change it over to this...
60$ a year (and able to be written off against the business/ "self employment" to balance those books!) :D:D

[st00ji]

there are downsides to being a contractor too.

[pzkpfw]

... when i need to rego the bike i'm probably going to change it over to this... ...

Go for it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/8517828/NZ-motorists-claim-cars-are-ambulances-in-tax-scam.html


Andy Knackstedt, of the New Zealand Transport Agency, which collects the fees, said: "I guess it comes down to people's willingness to falsely register their vehicles."

But the agency warned that errant motorists were now in its sights and could face fines of up to NZ$1,000 each


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10395375


Hundreds of motorists who re-registered vehicles as hearses to dodge car registration fees could face prosecution.

----

And for the OP:

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/registration-licensing/tradeplates.html


You can only use trade plates for the purpose for which we supply them. So, if you're a car wrecker, you can use the plates on a car you're removing from the place where you've bought it to your destruction premises. If you use the plates for any other purpose, you can be fined for using an unregistered and unlicensed vehicle.

[iYRe]

Andy Knackstedt, of the New Zealand Transport Agency, which collects the fees, said: "I guess it comes down to people's willingness to falsely register their vehicles."

But the agency warned that errant motorists were now in its sights and could face fines of up to NZ$1,000 each

if you got away with it for 2 years, you saved 2 hundy..

[Akzle]

Go for it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/8517828/NZ-motorists-claim-cars-are-ambulances-in-tax-scam.html...

you do realise the system doesn't usually win, eh?
" a fine of 1000$" fucking scary bro. put it on the tab, the govt is paying that one off, too.

and that a dumb bitch who tries to tell cops " it's a hearse because i carry dead chickens from the supermarket" is always ALWAYS going to get laughed at. (another reason why women shouldn't be allowed cars) then she goes and tells everyone in town.
dumb. dumb. bitch.

-edit- and if you read my post, and/or "the law" you'll see that it IS NOT "falsely" registering a vehicle.

[HenryDorsetCase]

----

And for the OP:

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/registration-licensing/tradeplates.html

I'm on a test drive.

I'm delivering the vehicle to the new owner, Tame Iti, C/e Urewera Forest.

I'm delivering the vehicle to a dealership because I have taken it in trade.

Easy easy. I am a fat little grey haired middle aged man, I can call the cops "son" and say things like "I've been driving since you were in short pants and I'll see you in court"

etc.

If they say you arent, its up to them to prove it, and with appropriate paperwork (easy given my day job) then, um, .... why the hell not?

[HenryDorsetCase]

if you got away with it for 2 years, you saved 2 hundy..

I will soon be in a position of running two over 600 cc bikes which would cost $1100 a year to register.

I only ride for pleasure really, and there is something seriously fucked about a system that it costs more to register them than it does to put petrol in them.

[HenryDorsetCase]

dont even have to be a dealer: proprietor of a transport museum sounds like me:

it is 42 square metres of tasty goodness, stuffed with half worn out VFR400NC30 parts, newer triumph parts and an old POS.


who can use dealer plates?

a motor vehicle trader
manufacturer and assembler
car wrecker (if you have a second-hand trader licence)
government department
delivering unregistered motor vehicles
motor vehicle repairer
proprietor of a transport museum.

[Bassmatt]

dont even have to be a dealer: proprietor of a transport museum sounds like me:

it is 42 square metres of tasty goodness, stuffed with half worn out VFR400NC30 parts, newer triumph parts and an old POS.

Motor vehicle repairer sounds good. I've fixed broken things on vehicles many a time.

[pzkpfw]

... and if you read my post ...

Neither your car nor your bike is actually a "hearse / non commercial ambulance".

[Bassmatt]

Neither your car nor your bike is actually a "hearse / non commercial ambulance".

I take people to the hospital for free all the time, that sounds like a non commercial ambulance to me. And if you metme while driving my father I could probably convince you my ute was also a hearse. :crazy:

[davereid]

I would have to register as a vehicle trader, but since I would be the worst "dealer" in the world because I can't ever sell for more than I buy for, it might work out?just an idle thought.....http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/registration-licensing/traders.html#status

You can buy number plates with the same reg as you already have, or make them yourself (I have the font p.m. me) or if not as lazy as me simply move plates between bikes.

Pray they move to ANPR cameras, then use the one plate on all your bikes.

A Human being may see a fat hairy man on an unlicenced Harley Davidson.

An ANPR camera will see a teenage girl on a fully legal moped.

ANPR will be the tool that enables me to enjoy another ten years without licencing.

God bless technology and its idiots.

[Paul in NZ]

There was a 'collector' class at one point but not widely adverised....

[MIXONE]

You can buy number plates with the same reg as you already have, or make them yourself (I have the font p.m. me) or if not as lazy as me simply move plates between bikes.

Pray they move to ANPR cameras, then use the one plate on all your bikes.

A Human being may see a fat hairy man on an unlicenced Harley Davidson.

An ANPR camera will see a teenage girl on a fully legal moped.

ANPR will be the tool that enables me to enjoy another ten years without licencing.

God bless technology and its idiots.

Amen to that.:whistle:

[Twosixty]

Looks promising to be a repairer but it seems you can't be more than 50km from your address - annex a & b.

[hayd3n]

Looks promising to be a repairer but it seems you can't be more than 50km from your address - annex a & b.

there quite a few nice roads round here within 50kms taeri mouth, over to waitati
portabello road some of the road to middle march, to name some

[tigertim20]

there quite a few nice roads round here within 50kms taeri mouth, over to waitati
portabello road some of the road to middle march, to name some

true, but he is in Blenheim. so no rides to nelson and further afield, no hoons past ward and into the curves to Kaikoura and the twisties south of Kaikoura to cheviot . . . that would be very sad!

You could probably still do a picton, queen charlotte drive, havelock, renwick loop though?

[SPman]

My flatmate had a dealer plate. He had 8 cars and jst swapped the plate around as he wanted. He had one car that had never been regoed in NZ - (A Jag XJ40 - ex Singapore). Just stuck on the dealer plate and drove them. I knew him for 8 yeas and he never seemed to have any trouble. Don't know why you can't do the same for bikes.....

[FJRider]

My flatmate had a dealer plate.

I imagine you need to be a licensed motor vehicle dealer to get one. What's the annual fee for that ... ???

[pzkpfw]

What's legal and what's gotten away with are two different things.

[jrandom]

Why not just leave them unregistered [edit: actually, 'unlicenced']? Put them on hold. 'Off the road'. (Make sure they're still WOF'd and looked after, of course.) And just ride them.

If you just ride occasionally for pleasure, you'll be bound to spend far less on the occasional inevitable tickets for your civil disobedience than keeping them both constantly registered would cost you.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Why not just leave them unregistered [edit: actually, 'unlicenced']? Put them on hold. 'Off the road'. (Make sure they're still WOF'd and looked after, of course.) And just ride them.

If you just ride occasionally for pleasure, you'll be bound to spend far less on the occasional inevitable tickets for your civil disobedience than keeping them both constantly registered would cost you.

yeah, you're probably right.

I felt like such a badass riding the scooter round when it had no rego.... then i registered it. silly sheep that I am

[Winston001]

My flatmate had a dealer plate. He had 8 cars and jst swapped the plate around as he wanted. He had one car that had never been regoed in NZ - (A Jag XJ40 - ex Singapore). Just stuck on the dealer plate and drove them. I knew him for 8 yeas and he never seemed to have any trouble. Don't know why you can't do the same for bikes.....


Aaaarrrggghhh...you've just remined me of one of the finest rides on the Ducati (sob). North of Kaikoura dropping off from 170k at moments - astonished glance at the speedo - through 200 only aware of when the bike gathered some air north of Kerenegu....

On song. It was close to a religious experience.

I've nearly died since but you guys know what I mean and nobody can take those moments away. :headbang:

[FJRider]

Aaaarrrggghhh...you've just remined me of one of the finest rides on the Ducati (sob). North of Kaikoura dropping off from 170k at moments - astonished glance at the speedo - through 200 only aware of when the bike gathered some air north of Kerenegu....

On song. It was close to a religious experience.

I've nearly died since but you guys know what I mean and nobody can take those moments away. :headbang:

I did the "North of Kaikoura" going south (off the ferry) in the very early hours of the morning once. A 79 GS1000 (in 81) ... full moon and dam near daylight it was so bright.

Deserted road ... :cool:

I found religion that night too ... :innocent:

[red mermaid]

But if he is transporting his brain, and that appears to have been dead for quite some time, does that count?



Neither your car nor your bike is actually a "hearse / non commercial ambulance".

[bsasuper]

You cheap bastards, I cant wait till they bring in private third party injury cover, the scrap metal dealers will be laughing.

[rastuscat]

North of Kaikoura dropping off from 170k at moments - astonished glance at the speedo - through 200 only aware of when the bike gathered some air north of Kerenegu....

Kekerengu. Knob.

[Flip]

Round these parts (Otago) folk simply redg the bike as a farm vehicle. The secret is keepthe wof up to date.

When the rozza call the plate in the coms simply say both are current until bla bla, they have to look up in another page to see what the class of rego is. If it comes up with a old wof and a rego they then look into why it has rego and no wof.

[jellywrestler]

Kekerengu. Knob. Kekerengu is more of a peninsula than a Knob, knob!

[Akzle]

Neither your car nor your bike is actually a "hearse / non commercial ambulance".

but. it's "legally" "registered" as such... how can you say that?!

[FJRider]

Round these parts (Otago) folk simply redg the bike as a farm vehicle. The secret is keepthe wof up to date.



Nothing new here ... the fella down the road from me has a 916 cc farm bike for his 10 acre block. Jantar has a 1250 one ...

[pzkpfw]

but. it's "legally" "registered" as such... how can you say that?!

As with the bloke who put a 400cc engine in his 250 and kept it registered as a 250, just because it's been got away with, does not actually make it legal. (Pre-LAMS issue).

If you really do have your bike registered as a hearse or non commercial ambulance, then it's something you've got away with so far, but that doesn't make it legal.

No more legal than all those folk mentioned in the new items I linked to earlier.

You may never get found out, you get away with it "forever". That doesn't make it "legal".


http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/registration-licensing/exemptions-changing.html


Please be careful to choose the correct category as you could be fined if you licence your vehicle with a category which is not appropriate for your vehicle type and use.

[Akzle]

You may never get found out, you get away with it "forever". That doesn't make it "legal".

the devil is in the detail. if you read the legislation concerning driver licensing and vehicle registration, you will find, that "non commercial ambulance" is the only class that accurately describes one who is on the road without a license/ not acting in commerce... everything else, (private PASSENGER, ie) is actually a designation for a vehicle to be used for commercial gain, by the corporate person/"driver", and thus can be billed accordingly...

[pzkpfw]

the devil is in the detail. if you read the legislation concerning driver licensing and vehicle registration, you will find, that "non commercial ambulance" is the only class that accurately describes one who is on the road without a license/ not acting in commerce... everything else, (private PASSENGER, ie) is actually a designation for a vehicle to be used for commercial gain, by the corporate person/"driver", and thus can be billed accordingly...

Provide proof of the registration of your vehicle as such. Feel free to black-out the plate number and name/address.

Then provide proof that your registration of your vehicle as such has been approved by the authorities (i.e. go show it to a relevant person and see if they think it's fine).

Until then, I call bullshit.

[huff3r]

the devil is in the detail. if you read the legislation concerning driver licensing and vehicle registration, you will find, that "non commercial ambulance" is the only class that accurately describes one who is on the road without a license/ not acting in commerce... everything else, (private PASSENGER, ie) is actually a designation for a vehicle to be used for commercial gain, by the corporate person/"driver", and thus can be billed accordingly...

How would you know if you don't even recognise the laws of this country? Why is your vehicle registered at all?

[Akzle]

How would you know if you don't even recognise the laws of this country? Why is your vehicle registered at all?
good spotting!
(my 3 four wheelers are unrego, bike is only rego cos i bought it like that, if i can't get it reg'd as an ambulance i'll be unrego it.)


Until then, I call bullshit.
call what you like. as above, my cages aren't registered (they're not on the road f*ckall either)
i could probably find you someone in wellingtown who does exactly that, though. and i know a guy down auckland with his hilux, single cab flat deck, rego'd as non commercial ambulance, has been for the last decade, he's been stopped and questioned by cops plenty, too. always gets off with no mention of that "illegal" registration....

[jasonu]

Provide proof of the registration of your vehicle as such. Feel free to black-out the plate number and name/address.

Then provide proof that your registration of your vehicle as such has been approved by the authorities (i.e. go show it to a relevant person and see if they think it's fine).

Until then, I call bullshit.


Plus one to that. Total dickhead who thinks the rules don't apply to him. (unless there is some sort of personal gain to be had of course)

[ukusa]

some people got away with registering their vehicles as Hearses for a while.

I bought a new import (car) for work last year, and the dealer put 6 months rego on it. When the renewal came after 6 months, the amount was for around $58 or so. On closer inspection the cheeky prick had registered it as a farm vehicle!

[Akzle]

Plus one to that. Total dickhead who thinks the rules don't apply to him. (unless there is some sort of personal gain to be had of course)

"the rules"?
this one's been had before.

the LEGISLATION doesn't actually apply to any of you, if you're dumb enough to bow before a policy enforcement officer - that's when it starts to apply, but it's a game you haven't ben taught to play, so usually costs you time and money, while they (cops, lawyers, legislators, judges) keep going to the bank.
policy enforcement officers aren't taught this either, they're taught to enforce policy, so to derive a benefit from what i know i use their own rules (legislation, which the police ARE bound by, given that it created them) against them.
as far as the OTHER "benefit" i get from the government: they pay off the fines that their agents have created.
that's the game.
that's their game.
i know it, i play it, I win.

("benefit" in inverted commas, because if they hadn't created the fines in the first place they wouldn't need to pay them off, thus it's not actually a benefit to me, but a nett loss to the country.
good game. good game.)

[pzkpfw]

... if i can't get it reg'd as an ambulance ...

So why would this happen, if it's all so clear as you state?



... he's been stopped and questioned by cops plenty, too. always gets off with no mention of that "illegal" registration.

Questioned specifically about the registration? Or they just didn't notice?

[HenryDorsetCase]

[COLOR="#139922"]
"the rules"?
this one's been had before.

the LEGISLATION doesn't actually apply to any of you,

Please explain how and why, for some of us country bumpkins. With references, I intend to read this and critique it.

[Swoop]

dont even have to be a dealer: proprietor of a transport museum sounds like me:

it is 42 square metres of tasty goodness, stuffed with half worn out VFR400NC30 parts, newer triumph parts and an old POS.
Ooh!
People would travel from far and wide to see such a unique museum! Definately go for the museum plate!:2thumbsup

[jasonu]

"the rules"?
this one's been had before.

the LEGISLATION doesn't actually apply to any of you, if you're dumb enough to bow before a policy enforcement officer - that's when it starts to apply, but it's a game you haven't ben taught to play, so usually costs you time and money, while they (cops, lawyers, legislators, judges) keep going to the bank.
policy enforcement officers aren't taught this either, they're taught to enforce policy, so to derive a benefit from what i know i use their own rules (legislation, which the police ARE bound by, given that it created them) against them.
as far as the OTHER "benefit" i get from the government: they pay off the fines that their agents have created.
that's the game.
that's their game.
i know it, i play it, I win.

("benefit" in inverted commas, because if they hadn't created the fines in the first place they wouldn't need to pay them off, thus it's not actually a benefit to me, but a nett loss to the country.
good game. good game.)

I don't rate a person such as yourself that uses the dole to pay off fines as being a winner.

[Big Dave]

Trade Plates have a 50Km maximum travel radius. The vehicle's route and the destination are also meant to be documented and carried, as is a statement of roadworthiness.
You are just giving them more sticks to hit you with.

[RDJ]

Bike registration is just another example of you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't avoid the game. But then riding is worth more than all the hassles combined. It was a beautiful morning down here in the Manawatu, the sun was up, the road was clear, the bike was in full song... Just great. Yes, another >$1100 coming up for registering two bikes of which I can ride only one at a time, but then, better than having $1100 and no bikes.

[Akzle]

So why would this happen, if it's all so clear as you state?

Questioned specifically about the registration? Or they just didn't notice?

1) becaues the process of "registration" involves an "application" this is all very technical "we now own your ass" legalese jargon,
... but an "application" CAN be denied by the "authority", to whom most people register *cough* abandon, "their" vehicles.

2) i couldn't answer that on behalf, i know it has been commented, and given that the first thing the stasi do is "run your plates" (and licence), for all i do not give them much credo, i'm sure they can mostly read...

i'll try and get a copy of me mate's rego up for ya.

[Akzle]

Please explain how and why, for some of us country bumpkins. With references, I intend to read this and critique it.
legislation, read it. i've also explained this ad nauseum on this forum and elsewhere.
a person is a legal corporate fiction.
i stand as a man, not a fiction, not a person.
a person is created by the registration of a live berth. (and assigned an IRD#, SSN etc (tax/corporate registration number) AT BERTH!!(/incorporation))
"governments" use persons to trade, and do all sorts of maths, like this dollar is more than that dollar, and this bank can afford to make up this much credit while this one can't and this economy gets a billion dollar bailout while this one we just sell guns to etc etc etc.

most legislation in NZ is headed (around-a-bout point 3) that "this ACT binds the crown" - i am not the crown, i am not employed by the crown, so why should that ACT bind me?
(and who the fuck is the crown, because i want to hallal them.)

and why are they called ACTS is not for the purpose of ACTors.

other search queries you might want to pursue are:
-common law
-admiralty law
-freeman on the land

things that might help you in your critique-scapade (and minimise the number of dumb questions you want me to answer) are: law dictionary, plenty of coffee, few joints...


I don't rate a person such as yourself that uses the dole to pay off fines as being a winner.

and you base your ASSumption on?

[Big Dave]

i stand as a man, not a fiction, not a person.
a person is created by the registration of a live berth.



Boats, boats, boats. That's all 'e ever thinks about.

[Akzle]

Boats, boats, boats. That's all 'e ever thinks about.

see above concerning admiralty law and berth registration. (of a citizenSHIP maybe huh?)
the devil is in the detail. law is a game of semantics and etymology.

[jasonu]

[


and you base your ASSumption on?


Common sense

[awayatc]

"the rules"?

as far as the OTHER "benefit" i get from the government: they pay off the fines that their agents have created.
that's the game.
that's their game.
i know it, i play it, I win.



Hard to take somebody serious who boasts about getting a "benefit"yet proclaims to be intelligent......

people who don't live in my world can't possibly give me any sort of worthwile advise......

[jellywrestler]

.....

people who don't live in my world can't possibly give me any sort of worthwile advise...... I'm not and never have been on the benefit so I can tell you that it's actually: worthwhile & advice...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Bike registration is just another example of you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't avoid the game. But then riding is worth more than all the hassles combined. It was a beautiful morning down here in the Manawatu, the sun was up, the road was clear, the bike was in full song... Just great. Yes, another >$1100 coming up for registering two bikes of which I can ride only one at a time, but then, better than having $1100 and no bikes.

That is poetry. and I agree.

Like I said to that hooker recently: "Well, I don't know what that is, but whats another $500"?

[HenryDorsetCase]

legislation, read it. i've also explained this ad nauseum on this forum and elsewhere.
a person is a legal corporate fiction.
i stand as a man, not a fiction, not a person.
a person is created by the registration of a live berth. (and assigned an IRD#, SSN etc (tax/corporate registration number) AT BERTH!!(/incorporation))
"governments" use persons to trade, and do all sorts of maths, like this dollar is more than that dollar, and this bank can afford to make up this much credit while this one can't and this economy gets a billion dollar bailout while this one we just sell guns to etc etc etc.

most legislation in NZ is headed (around-a-bout point 3) that "this ACT binds the crown" - i am not the crown, i am not employed by the crown, so why should that ACT bind me?
(and who the fuck is the crown, because i want to hallal them.)

and why are they called ACTS is not for the purpose of ACTors.

other search queries you might want to pursue are:
-common law
-admiralty law
-freeman on the land

things that might help you in your critique-scapade (and minimise the number of dumb questions you want me to answer) are: law dictionary, plenty of coffee, few joints...



and you base your ASSumption on?


I think its fair to say that I have read a lot more legislation than you have.

I get it now: you're insane.

[ukusa]

Bike registration is just another example of you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't avoid the game. But then riding is worth more than all the hassles combined. It was a beautiful morning down here in the Manawatu, the sun was up, the road was clear, the bike was in full song... Just great. Yes, another >$1100 coming up for registering two bikes of which I can ride only one at a time, but then, better than having $1100 and no bikes.

It's the $100 per ride I pay for each of the 1/2 dozen or so rides a year I enjoy on my classic Bonnie (not vintage yet :(. This is why I take the risk of no rego. But at 750cc it is infinitely more powerful than all those sub 600cc bikes that are eligable for slightly cheaper rego, or so I'm told by those in the know at NZTA !

[jim.cox]

It's the $100 per ride I pay for each of the 1/2 dozen or so rides a year I enjoy on my classic

I'm in exactly the same boat - Since I'm not riding the Ducati everyday, or even every week, there is just no way its worth keeping it registered :(

[FuriousD]

Reminds me of when I was in Ireland and the CEO of Ryan Air bought a taxi so he could use the bus/taxi lanes around Dublin...he got away with it as he had it set up with a meter and would stop from time to time to pick up punters.....

I got pick up by him once. He's still doing it, or was when I left two years ago.

[scumdog]

This thread is fun - it's retardo zombie city man!!

[Drew]

legislation, read it. i've also explained this ad nauseum on this forum and elsewhere.
a person is a legal corporate fiction.
i stand as a man, not a fiction, not a person.
a person is created by the registration of a live berth. (and assigned an IRD#, SSN etc (tax/corporate registration number) AT BERTH!!(/incorporation))
"governments" use persons to trade, and do all sorts of maths, like this dollar is more than that dollar, and this bank can afford to make up this much credit while this one can't and this economy gets a billion dollar bailout while this one we just sell guns to etc etc etc.

most legislation in NZ is headed (around-a-bout point 3) that "this ACT binds the crown" - i am not the crown, i am not employed by the crown, so why should that ACT bind me?
(and who the fuck is the crown, because i want to hallal them.)

and why are they called ACTS is not for the purpose of ACTors.

other search queries you might want to pursue are:
-common law
-admiralty law
-freeman on the land

things that might help you in your critique-scapade (and minimise the number of dumb questions you want me to answer) are: law dictionary, plenty of coffee, few joints...



and you base your ASSumption on?



I think its fair to say that I have read a lot more legislation than you have.

I get it now: you're insane.I'm no lawyer, but I think the point he's making is if you do not consent to being a person, legislation is moot.

I have a history of missing the point on these things though.

And, on the extreemly off chance that I have understood his meaning, I'm not sure I could argue it with a straight face. I enjoy my country of birth, and I will continue to pay my taxes...and the arrears they just won't fuckin forget about, to continue living here. Could stop and claim squatters rights on the country, but the maari would fuck that up for me anyway I guess.

[Drew]

This thread is fun - it's retardo zombie city man!!We don't use the "Z" word, it's been found to be racially insensitive.

[Fast Eddie]

"governments" use persons to trade, and do all sorts of maths



haha... do all sorts of maths

[FJRider]

This thread is fun - it's retardo zombie city man!!

And these are the one's that can read ... and write .... sort of ... :lol:

[Akzle]

Common sense
bahahahahhaha.
(you got nothing.)

I think its fair to say that I have read a lot more legislation than you have.

I get it now: you're insane.
and secondly: that's entirely probable
firstly: i doubt it. and on the off chance you have/had, re-read it, but this time look beyond what they tell you to think.


haha... do all sorts of maths

okay. that was a bit of an exaggeration.
http://bzorch.ca/pics/dice.jpg

[Winston001]

a person is a legal corporate fiction.
i stand as a man, not a fiction, not a person.


most legislation in NZ is headed "this ACT binds the crown" - i am not the crown, i am not employed by the crown, so why should that ACT bind me?


-freeman on the land




Ooookaaay that explains a lot. :devil2:

We have a real live Sovereign Man on KB - sometimes also called a Freeman.

You are a rare creature Akzle and have much to teach us. :clap:


Edit: statutes which specifically say "This Act binds the Crown" mean that government departments are bound by that law. Not all laws bind the Crown - govt buildings used to be exempt from council rates, not sure if they have to pay any EQC or fire levies even now.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I'm no lawyer, but I think the point he's making is if you do not consent to being a person, legislation is moot.

I have a history of missing the point on these things though.

And, on the extreemly off chance that I have understood his meaning, I'm not sure I could argue it with a straight face. I enjoy my country of birth, and I will continue to pay my taxes...and the arrears they just won't fuckin forget about, to continue living here. Could stop and claim squatters rights on the country, but the maari would fuck that up for me anyway I guess.

I am going to do a point by point refutation of it, but the takehome lesson is that it is fucking dribble.

[Winston001]

I get it now: you're insane.

Just for general interest, there is a libertarian movement called the Sovereign Man which I thought was confined to the vacant spaces of the American prairies but apparently there is at least one acolyte in NZ.

The Sovereign belief system...well let me quote:

"A Sovereign Individual believes in rights and power for the individual. Some of those defining characteristics include: a belief in the concept of self-ownership; a strong commitment to individual rights; a distrust of political democracy; a market-anarchist or natural order mindset…"

Governments and the laws they make are not recognised by this system which instead believes in ancient common law and the natural order. Whatever that is.

Here is a Sovereign man getting owned in an American courthouse:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqZBeDW3rWY

[HenryDorsetCase]

Just for general interest, there is a libertarian movement called the Sovereign Man which I thought was confined to the vacant spaces of the American prairies but apparently there is at least one acolyte in NZ.

The Sovereign belief system...well let me quote:

"A Sovereign Individual believes in rights and power for the individual. Some of those defining characteristics include: a belief in the concept of self-ownership; a strong commitment to individual rights; a distrust of political democracy; a market-anarchist or natural order mindset…"

Governments and the laws they make are not recognised by this system which instead believes in ancient common law and the natural order. Whatever that is.

Here is a Sovereign man getting owned in an American courthouse:


that is awesome.

Job satisfaction that just cannot be beat!

Shirley if sovereignwad didnt accept any jurisdiction then darkening the door of a state or federal building is kind of against his religion.

[Big Dave]

Indiferentarian: Give me Freedom...or whatever.

And moreover HDC - whilst denying being part of the system, tazer-boy starts immediately bleatin' about 'his rights'. Richie Benaud voice: High voltage irony that.

[pzkpfw]

... whilst denying being part of the system, tazer-boy starts immediately bleatin' about 'his rights'. ...

Largely what I was thinking. (Also - trying to push past the two blocking the corridor, then saying "don't touch me" and trying to claim "battery").

If one of these sovereign Men steals off another (say; smaller, weaker, or more poorly armed) sovereign Man, where do they go to for this "natural justice"?

[Akzle]

We have a real live Sovereign Man on KB - sometimes also called a Freeman.

You are a rare creature Akzle and have much to teach us. :clap:

Edit: statutes which specifically say "This Act binds the Crown" mean that government departments are bound by that law. Not all laws bind the Crown - govt buildings used to be exempt from council rates, not sure if they have to pay any EQC or fire levies even now.
edit: find me some NZ legislation that does NOT say "this act binds the crown
2- find out who the fuck the crown is. i have a swift kick in the crotch for their tomfuckery.
3- why doesn't it say "this act binds every living man woman and child in the place known as new zealand, whether they like it or not"?
riddle me thus...

i'm not so rare. i'm completely uncooked right now. you're welcoms to the barbeque afterward though.

if a student fails to learn a teacher fails to teach.
so i don't teach. i tell. then if you fuckup i can say "i told you so"


I am going to do a point by point refutation of it...
...:wait:no hurry.


Just for general interest, there is a libertarian movement called the Sovereign Man which I thought was confined to the vacant spaces of the American prairies but apparently there is at least one acolyte in NZ.

The Sovereign belief system...well let me quote:

"A Sovereign Individual believes in rights and power for the individual. Some of those defining characteristics include: a belief in the concept of self-ownership; a strong commitment to individual rights; a distrust of political democracy; a market-anarchist or natural order mindset…"

Governments and the laws they make are not recognised by this system which instead believes in ancient common law and the natural order.
oh there are heaps of people having their ass handed to them in court. whether they claim to be freeman, sovereign, tuhoe, or whatever. there was a guy down rotorua, doing just fine, until they appointed him a lawyer and suddenly "he was sorry and mislead" and now GUILTY. (accepted jurisdiction, then provided mens rea - whammo, criminal conviction for a "civil crime" (no injured party))
it's not for the average dick. and were i to watch the video i could probably pinpoint where he went wrong.
that asides, most of that description you provided suits me.



Shirley if sovereignwad didnt accept any jurisdiction then darkening the door of a state or federal building is kind of against his religion.
that's step # one in his fuckup.


If one of these sovereign Men steals off another (say; smaller, weaker, or more poorly armed) sovereign Man, where do they go to for this "natural justice"?

a) generally people of the persuasion don't steal, asides from not needing to, it just aint right
2- you don't need to go anywhere for natural justice. it comes to you. the vedic "karma" fairly well covers it.

the guiding principals are three: do no harm to any (hu)man; do no harm to property (debatable re: being able to (claim to) "own" anything) and; honor your contracts (ie, don't lie, do what you say you will do.)

what more "laws" are required?

and as a general aside: i do not label myself a free man on the land, nor a sovereign being... i live free (do no harm) and despise the collective sickness that has resulted in the governments of the white, "western", capitalist world, in my free time, the rest of the time i'm enjoying my god-given (not government-ascribed) life...

[Drew]

edit: find me some NZ legislation that does NOT say "this act binds the crown
2- find out who the fuck the crown is. i have a swift kick in the crotch for their tomfuckery.
3- why doesn't it say "this act binds every living man woman and child in the place known as new zealand, whether they like it or not"?
riddle me thus...

i'm not so rare. i'm completely uncooked right now. you're welcoms to the barbeque afterward though.

if a student fails to learn a teacher fails to teach.
so i don't teach. i tell. then if you fuckup i can say "i told you so"


...:wait:no hurry.

oh there are heaps of people having their ass handed to them in court. whether they claim to be freeman, sovereign, tuhoe, or whatever. there was a guy down rotorua, doing just fine, until they appointed him a lawyer and suddenly "he was sorry and mislead" and now GUILTY. (accepted jurisdiction, then provided mens rea - whammo, criminal conviction for a "civil crime" (no injured party))
it's not for the average dick. and were i to watch the video i could probably pinpoint where he went wrong.
that asides, most of that description you provided suits me.


that's step # one in his fuckup.



a) generally people of the persuasion don't steal, asides from not needing to, it just aint right
2- you don't need to go anywhere for natural justice. it comes to you. the vedic "karma" fairly well covers it.

the guiding principals are three: do no harm to any (hu)man; do no harm to property (debatable re: being able to (claim to) "own" anything) and; honor your contracts (ie, don't lie, do what you say you will do.)

what more "laws" are required?

and as a general aside: i do not label myself a free man on the land, nor a sovereign being... i live free (do no harm) and despise the collective sickness that has resulted in the governments of the white, "western", capitalist world, in my free time, the rest of the time i'm enjoying my god-given (not government-ascribed) life...There's hole in your bucket sorry man.

I get what you're saying in theory, but there is no logical way to live in our country without recognising the laws.

You have said you like to stick it to the cops, and don't accept tickets from them, and make them look like fools. But by your logic, you can't stop for them either or you are adhearing to a system you renounce.

The only end is to do what you like, when you like, and pay no attention to anyone in a public position or you are bound by prescident.

I'm just picking for it's own sake, I'm all good with paying taxes. Anyone else can do what ever the hell they like.

[Akzle]

You have said you like to stick it to the cops, and don't accept tickets from them, and make them look like fools. But by your logic, you can't stop for them either or you are adhearing to a system you renounce.

they tend to get a bit shitty when you don't... phoning ahead for tyre spikes and such. less painful to stop, then serve them legal notice that they have no lawful authority, and carry on my way.

it is difficult, in practice, to deal with the unenlightened, and particularly the frontline policy enforcement division of the government/board of shadowy figures, they don't know law, they struggle enough with legislation, and that's 100% of their job,
let alone are they able to entertain any discourse on lawful vs legal, common law, admiralty law or anything in the court/legal/"justice" system that isn't "take license - write ticket - give ticket - carry on" if you try and steer them off this path they get highly confused. don't know what to do, like...

[scumdog]

[COLOR="#139922"]
they tend to get a bit shitty when you don't... phoning ahead for tyre spikes and such. less painful to stop, then serve them legal notice that they have no lawful authority, and carry on my way.

Hopefully you'll treat ambulance crews with the same disdain should you arse up and somebody calls them. (I know YOU wouldn't call them...)

[HenryDorsetCase]

[ enjoying my god-given (not government-ascribed) life...

god-give? GOD given?

so you're hopelessly in thrall to a set of bronze age myths?

mate, your problem isn't whether or not the social contract that binds the rest of us to society applies to you, its way way bigger than that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

they tend to get a bit shitty when you don't... phoning ahead for tyre spikes and such. less painful to stop, then serve them legal notice that they have no lawful authority, and carry on my way.

it is difficult, in practice, to deal with the unenlightened, and particularly the frontline policy enforcement division of the government/board of shadowy figures, they don't know law, they struggle enough with legislation, and that's 100% of their job,
let alone are they able to entertain any discourse on lawful vs legal, common law, admiralty law or anything in the court/legal/"justice" system that isn't "take license - write ticket - give ticket - carry on" if you try and steer them off this path they get highly confused. don't know what to do, like...
bullshit. they think "Ah fuck, another fucking lunatic, just my luck"

its not like you dont GET the tickets?

the basic hypocrisy of your stance must be obvious, even to you, Shirley?

[HenryDorsetCase]

2- you don't need to go anywhere for natural justice. it comes to you. the vedic "karma" fairly well covers it.


.......really?

the only scenario that I can imagine where your philosophy might work is a scenario where you (or a very small family group) live in a cave or a shelter you've built yourself, you forage for food, you hunt, and (heres the important part) there are NO OTHER people. Congratulations, you've invented the stone age.

To claim, as you do, to want to be part of a modern society with all of its benefits: by which I mean a system where you dont have to grow or find your own food, kill your own meat, make your own shelter, defend your sleeping place from predatorr or other people, but not to be part of and subject to the well developed social constraints and structured that have developed so that can happen? That is delusional, and stupid. You're lying to yourself. As others have said, the basic problem is you use all this stuff (did you build that road? did you buy that artifact? How do you afford the computer youre using to type the inanities you're posting here, for starters) but then you say Oh no, that doesnt apply to me. The fuck it doesn't no matter what you say.

the history of people is the history of learning how to get along with other people. thats what people do.

And since I happen to know a little bit about admiralty law, I am FASCINATED by why you keep mentioning it as if it has some meaning. Please, elucidate.

[Drew]

Fuckin lawyers. Ruin everything!!!

[Akzle]

Hopefully you'll treat ambulance crews with the same disdain should you arse up and somebody calls them. (I know YOU wouldn't call them...)
what do you base this on?
ambulance crews exist ONLY TO HELP PEOPLE
they're a) not government funded and b) not government employees and c) not trying to enforce st john policy on me...


god-give? GOD given?

so you're hopelessly in thrall to a set of bronze age myths?
bahahaha
okay. heretic.
god is a myth. so you evolved from pond sludge? or do you have an alternate theory?
(i do not mean god in the christian sense, call it allah, budha, krishna, jesus, jah, jewhoover, whatever. i mean that from which everything comes from and goes to.)

but i think this is probably a pointless argument to raise with you, because you're so staunchly in your world view that considering anything else would be a reduction in you perceived self-worth.

(PS, there's a lot of people alive in this, the capitalist-age, who believe in "god", just sayin.)



its not like you dont GET the tickets?

the basic hypocrisy of your stance must be obvious, even to you, Shirley?
no, please, enlighten me, o enlightened soul that you are. :not:

there have been at least 3 times when i didn't GOT the tickets, and as many that i've later got OFF the tickets. the rest is being payed for by the government. tax payer. thanks cops.



the only scenario that I can imagine where your philosophy might work is a scenario where you (or a very small family group) live in a cave or a shelter you've built yourself, you forage for food, you hunt, and (heres the important part) there are NO OTHER people. Congratulations, you've invented the stone age.

To claim, as you do, to want to be part of a modern society with all of its benefits: by which I mean a system where you dont have to grow or find your own food, kill your own meat, make your own shelter, defend your sleeping place from predatorr or other people, but not to be part of and subject to the well developed social constraints and structured that have developed so that can happen? That is delusional, and stupid. You're lying to yourself. As others have said, the basic problem is you use all this stuff (did you build that road? did you buy that artifact? How do you afford the computer youre using to type the inanities you're posting here, for starters) but then you say Oh no, that doesnt apply to me. The fuck it doesn't no matter what you say.

the history of people is the history of learning how to get along with other people. thats what people do.

And since I happen to know a little bit about admiralty law, I am FASCINATED by why you keep mentioning it as if it has some meaning. Please, elucidate.

what you don't realise is that i don't mind "grow or find your own food, kill your own meat, make your own shelter, defend your sleeping place from predatorr or other people, " and i DO IT.

admiralty law was contributing pretext to common-wealth-land-law. many of the principals still apply. many things are worded (still) to reflect the jurisdiction.
ie "road"= legally "sea lane" *has changed, but not THAT long ago
"NZ'= "the territorial waters of NZ" (not LAND...) etcetera.

but i still dont think you've managed to answer any points i've raised. you've yelled a lot, and sounded very stern and indignant, but haven't actually provided any kind of fact.

[Akzle]

but of course if everyone got along, lawyers would be redundant. so it's kind of a self-perservationist view that you hold eh?

(you'll be first against the wall)

[Big Dave]

Akzie and Mashie should get a room.

[Brian d marge]

Why not just leave them unregistered [edit: actually, 'unlicenced']? Put them on hold. 'Off the road'. (Make sure they're still WOF'd and looked after, of course.) And just ride them.

If you just ride occasionally for pleasure, you'll be bound to spend far less on the occasional inevitable tickets for your civil disobedience than keeping them both constantly registered would cost you.
agreed old looking dude on an enfield , pottering along at 90 ,,( a nice speed for an enfield) , chances of getting a ticket slim to none ....( unless parked in town where parking wardens lurk)
hell in half a year you would be quids in,
and if you get pinged , 5 dollars a week from a specially set up account ( earning interest )......I could never get me syt together in NZ never actually had a vehicle that had wof , rego and insurance at the same time .....
stephen

ps my old man tried to get the dog as a security system regarding IRD...Rodesian ridgeback but the softest dumbest dog u would ever meet ( the old man cried buckets when benny died ) ...the IRD told him to join the far que