Now something like a new RC30 - that'd be a good story

[merv]

You reckon this will happen? http://superbikeplanet.com/2012/Sep/120924rc32.htm

[DEATH_INC.]

You reckon this will happen http://superbikeplanet.com/2012/Sep/120924rc32.htm

Yes. The big in-line fours have run their day I reckon, too farkin powerful and 'wild' to ride. The V4's and psuedo V4's (Like the yammie) are the go now. And Honda are due for a new wsbk bike.

[AllanB]

The need to stop being Gay and just get the F on with it. Aprilia did ................

[tigertim20]

I wouldnt be surprised, and it makes sense, all the time and money spent developing the V4 and V5 bikes, I had expected honda to take a leaf out of yamaha's book by now and promote the 'same engine type on YOUR ride as stoner and pedrosa ride' like yamaha has with the crossplane.

and most of the manufacturers are overdue for a serious change up in their flagship sports bikes anyway.

[Drew]

Hope it's a closer representation than the Ducati was. That thing shares nothing but wheel size with the GP bike!

Honda definitely had a strong V motor back in the day, pity they fluffed around with that stupid 400 piece and didn't just keep developing the 750/1000.

[darkwolf]

Oh I don't know if I could take that... another proper V4 - don't tell me it's gonna gear driven cams as well or I'm going to need a moment to conduct myself :love:

[merv]

If its the real thing it would have pneumatic valves too.

[jellywrestler]

Hope it's a closer representation than the Ducati was. That thing shares nothing but wheel size with the GP bike!

Honda definitely had a strong V motor back in the day, pity they fluffed around with that stupid 400 piece and didn't just keep developing the 750/1000.

cause they fucked the reputation of the V Four early in the piece by using the public as a test bed, and failing. I was at the six hour when nearly every V Four died a horrible death two laps after a pit stop. Why cause the fan switched off with the ignition, from memory the one that didn't fuck out had the fan bypassed so if it was hot when you stopped at least some cooling occurred. The fact that the barrells were par tof the crankcases and not a simple rebuild didn't help. These were the chain drive models, the earlier shafties had already let us down with their chocolate cams and then the bad batch of VF500 where they forgot to chamfer the crank journals left F All people who had faith in a V Four.

[merv]

Jelly, of course our later V4s are fantastic, but really the V4 first got such a bad rep initially in my lifetime with the Ford Transit van and the Zephyr 4.

Yay for Bill Biber and Phil Payne.

[Drew]

cause they fucked the reputation of the V Four early in the piece by using the public as a test bed, and failing. I was at the six hour when nearly every V Four died a horrible death two laps after a pit stop. Why cause the fan switched off with the ignition, from memory the one that didn't fuck out had the fan bypassed so if it was hot when you stopped at least some cooling occurred. The fact that the barrells were par tof the crankcases and not a simple rebuild didn't help. These were the chain drive models, the earlier shafties had already let us down with their chocolate cams and then the bad batch of VF500 where they forgot to chamfer the crank journals left F All people who had faith in a V Four.

Bloody hell you're a knowledgeable ol' coont. I knew about the cams being soft, (I owned a VF750f), but was unaware of all the other failings. I had prolly registered the barrels being part of teh cases, but not given it any though.

I'd put that down to a space concern now that I am giving it a minute. Not having to make a big flat surface to bolt barrells to is quite a good way to keep it compact.

[nudemetalz]

Back in 1989, I owned an '86 VF500F. I have to say that was a beautiful machine. Lovely engine,..very torquey (for it's size) and smooth. Could have had a better rear shock,..but that would have been easily fixed. Why they didn't develop THAT motor into a 600 is beyond me. It was far better than the 400 and the 750 also.

From what Jellywrestler said about them,..my model had all of the failings fixed from the '85 500's.

[Crasherfromwayback]

V-Four engines are gorgeous. Expensive to build and maintain compared to an inline though.

[Paul in NZ]

Honda are in trouble if they need to look back at old stuff to inspire the new....

[Drew]

Honda are in trouble if they need to look back at old stuff to inspire the new....

If they failed to look back, at problems they had last time, they wouldn't be a successful manufacturer.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hope it's a closer representation than the Ducati was. That thing shares nothing but wheel size with the GP bike!

Honda definitely had a strong V motor back in the day, pity they fluffed around with that stupid 400 piece and didn't just keep developing the 750/1000.

GP bikes are on 16.5's and the road bikes were 17's though aren't they? I could be wrong.

and Yes to the V4.

I saw the V4 Aprilia Tuono the other day. do want. But I will not buy an Aprilia

[HenryDorsetCase]

Honda are in trouble if they need to look back at old stuff to inspire the new....

I am still waiting for the dealer to call me to tell me my CB1100F has arrived.

[jellywrestler]

Honda are in trouble if they need to look back at old stuff to inspire the new....

so when the flat four watercooled shaft driven GOLD WING came out in 1975 it was a mistake, cause Holden brought out a flat four watercooled shaft driven bike in 1898.

[willytheekid]

:drool:...oh please god yes!

as for honda's V4's history-
http://world.honda.com/V4-story/
Had a NC30 road/race bike many years ago...thrashed the shit out of it, raced it, crashed it, scratched it, you name it!...bloody thing never missed a beat!
Now I finaly have the 96 VFR750...and its even better than the reviews and multiple awards said it would be :yes:

...but a road legal RC213v sitting in my shed?, HELL YEAH!! :eek:

http://shop.svida.cz/images/c010.jpg

:headbang:

[Drew]

GP bikes are on 16.5's and the road bikes were 17's though aren't they? I could be wrong.

and Yes to the V4.

I saw the V4 Aprilia Tuono the other day. do want. But I will not buy an Aprilia
Na, road bike wears 16.5inch wheels, that Bridgestone promised to always make for the desmocidici. Each bike was meant to come with first set of replacements free. Last time I spoke to Steve Bron, a year and a half after getting his bike, he was still waiting on his tyres.

[imdying]

Na, road bike wears 16.5inch wheels, that Bridgestone promised to always make for the desmocidici. Each bike was meant to come with first set of replacements free. Last time I spoke to Steve Bron, a year and a half after getting his bike, he was still waiting on his tyres.

D16RR uses a 17" front and a 16" rear. Bridgestone and Ducati wanted to use a 16.5" rear, but the European dudes that certify tyre sizes for road use wouldn't certify a half inch size.

[Paul in NZ]

Oh for FFS... Honda have been successful because they delivered new stuff that was better than anything else on the market at a price that hit the sweet spot and people bought them by the bucket full. They were the challenger brand going up against the established players and were not weighted down by history so they could innovate like crazy. The actual layout of the thing is immaterial the fact is it went better for longer and people could afford the previously unaffordable.

Now they have a considerable history and the company is run by people that have been in the motorcycle industry probably all their lives. Their vision is framed by that history and in a sense limited by it. Producing a super sports bike based on current race winning technology is not in itself a bad idea BUT a senior manager putting on rose tinted specs and waffling on about past glories isnt a good look unless they are producing a watered down copy for the masses, much like a GB500 is a 'cafe racer' for people that can't live with a Gold Star etc.

Realistically - Who is going to buy these bikes? I'm guessing the target isn't someone who ever heard an RC30 running in anger. Factor in the recession and the fact that very often these big bang top of the line cost regardless efforts sell for significantly less than production costs and Honda might just have a problem.

Whats a top of the line race rep Ducati cost in NZ? Would enough people pay that for a Honda? Personally - I don't think they would.

Innovation is not going to be easy for the Japanese now. Their dominance is akin to where the british were in the late 50's and now we are seeing pesky Chinese bikes appearing and we are dismissing them like we used to dismiss Hondas. Then there are the crazy germans.

[nudemetalz]

Paul's got a point.
I guess that's why the Honda NSX, as good a car as it is,..never sold like it should.
It doesn't have an Italian, or British or German name.

The new sport bike that Honda will build will start, run smoothly and be 100% reliable.
It won't overheat and break things like an MV,..it won't be loud like a Ducati,..and it won't blow inlet trumpet stacks off like my Guzzi does :laugh:

[onearmedbandit]

Fact is, people bought the NR750, and that wasn't even based on a world championship winning machine. Next fact is, Honda have no problem with doing something extreme and losing money on it, just to show they can. Like the NR750.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fact is, people bought the NR750, and that wasn't even based on a world championship winning machine. Next fact is, Honda have no problem with doing something extreme and losing money on it, just to show they can. Like the NR750.

100% correct.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oh for FFS... Honda have been successful because they delivered new stuff that was better than anything else on the market at a price that hit the sweet spot and people bought them by the bucket full. They were the challenger brand going up against the established players and were not weighted down by history so they could innovate like crazy. The actual layout of the thing is immaterial the fact is it went better for longer and people could afford the previously unaffordable.

Now they have a considerable history and the company is run by people that have been in the motorcycle industry probably all their lives. Their vision is framed by that history and in a sense limited by it. Producing a super sports bike based on current race winning technology is not in itself a bad idea BUT a senior manager putting on rose tinted specs and waffling on about past glories isnt a good look unless they are producing a watered down copy for the masses, much like a GB500 is a 'cafe racer' for people that can't live with a Gold Star etc.

Realistically - Who is going to buy these bikes? I'm guessing the target isn't someone who ever heard an RC30 running in anger. Factor in the recession and the fact that very often these big bang top of the line cost regardless efforts sell for significantly less than production costs and Honda might just have a problem.

Whats a top of the line race rep Ducati cost in NZ? Would enough people pay that for a Honda? Personally - I don't think they would.

Innovation is not going to be easy for the Japanese now. Their dominance is akin to where the british were in the late 50's and now we are seeing pesky Chinese bikes appearing and we are dismissing them like we used to dismiss Hondas. Then there are the crazy germans.

all the innovation is happening in Ze Cherman brands (KTM, BMW etc) and other Euro brands: ducati, Apriia, TRIUMPH!!! (Yay!)

Speaking of Chinese innovation, is it wrong of me to want this for 3 grand?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-517216582.htm

[merv]

"The power of dreams"

That's why Honda build stuff like the robot http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/

Which leads to stuff like this http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-08-21/honda-robot-mower/57185858/1

How many other bike companies do this http://hondajet.honda.com/ ? BMW used to, not sure they build aircraft now.

The old man from way back taught his people to always do something different.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Fact is, people bought the NR750, and that wasn't even based on a world championship winning machine. Next fact is, Honda have no problem with doing something extreme and losing money on it, just to show they can. Like the NR750.

yep. pluss soomeone going into the shop will go "Oh yeah, well some of the technology in the NR750 has trickled down into my CRF230: they're both Hondas"

[Paul in NZ]

100% correct.

Sigh.....

People also buy limited edition all sorts and pay waaay over the odds but the real question is - did Honda make a profit on those bikes? All up I doubt it....

Factor in a different era. People thought Honda was going to make that work, how many would have bought them if they had known it was going to be dropped like the turd it was? Even more, how many would buy these bikes right now given the recession and what its done to bike sales? Worse - assume you sold a few how many sales of profitable models would that rob you of?

Anyway - I'll take my marketing hat off now... I really don't care to much what they make....

[Paul in NZ]

The old man from way back taught his people to always do something different.

Actually you need to be very careful when you say that.

There is a wonderful book about the battle between samsung and sony which highlights the issues japanese companies face when they transition from the 'founder' generation to the era of the professional manager. Its scary ....

[Paul in NZ]

yep. pluss soomeone going into the shop will go "Oh yeah, well some of the technology in the NR750 has trickled down into my CRF230: they're both Hondas"

If I was in the market for a CRF230 I'd be hoping they didn't put anything from the NR750 anywhere near it.... Who needs a complex, heavy and slow dirt bike....

[merv]

Paul, people with money buy what they want. Some even buy and ride Moto Guzzis - sigh. Others buy a new iPhone when they only got their last one less than 6 months ago. Others just 'waste' their money on travel.

The engineer creates, the marketer sells, the passionate buy this kind of stuff.

Others are just sensible and buy cheap and practical.

If the British motorcycle industry had let people dream and create and then let them build it they (the companies) might have still been around today.

[bogan]

Honda are in trouble if they need to look back at old stuff to inspire the new....

You could also say that Honda are looking at their customers, to inspire the new. A lot of people I talk to reckon the IL4s are overdone, who gives a shit if they add another R to the name an find 3 more horsies. Give us something with a bit of class! I can't think of an IL4 I would like to own, on the other had, an RC51, RC30, RC31 (do own) are right at the top of the list, see any trends?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sigh.....

People also buy limited edition all sorts and pay waaay over the odds but the real question is - did Honda make a profit on those bikes? All up I doubt it....

Factor in a different era. People thought Honda was going to make that work, how many would have bought them if they had known it was going to be dropped like the turd it was? Even more, how many would buy these bikes right now given the recession and what its done to bike sales? ..

I don't think things like the NR750 were ever about making money for Honda Paul. They could build 100,000 postie bikes for that purpose. It was about showing us all they could build it and sell it IF they wanted. And people knew they'd be a lemon. Fuck...they couldn't even make their race bike that kick arse really. But purchase it they did.

Bit like Ducati with the V-four GP replica. I bet, that if Honda made a hundred V-5 RC211V replicas, and charged $150,000.00 for it...they'd sell out in a week. There are always enough people out there with enough coin to buy 'em if they make 'em.

[imdying]

I'll probably buy one; I'm already an existing new Honda customer. I'd like something tricky, but I'm not prepared to put up with the kind of shite that Ducati/MV/etc build... I want a GP rep super duper racing thingy, but I still want the side stand to work, the bits to all stay attached, and some sort of idle at the traffic lights.... Honda will undoubtedly provide me that... and should it break, I just get the Honda shop to come take it away and it'll be fixed under warranty. That might seem trivial on a new bike, but it is something that has thus far kept my wallet in my pocket regarding the RSV4 APRC.

Mind you... I'll still buy the single seat cover and other accessories from the USA, because sure as God made little green apples, Blue Wing will consider my new bike ownership some sort of excuse to let me have it with the anal annihilator.

As far as the NR750 goes... Honda could give two shits about making money on them. They're a corporation that on occasions likes to make a statement, and they have the money to do it. The Rune is another example.

[onearmedbandit]

Exactly. Honda don't give a damn about losing money on big news ventures, just showing the world they can is satisfaction for them. And that to Honda is almost more important than profit. And like already stated here, if they made a 100 and sold them at $150,000 they would be snapped up in a week. And Honda wouldn't care about returns.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Exactly. Honda don't give a damn about losing money on big news ventures, just showing the world they can is satisfaction for them. And that to Honda is almost more important than profit. And like already stated here, if they made a 100 and sold them at $150,000 they would be snapped up in a week. And Honda wouldn't care about returns.

They no rissen.

[BMWST?]

They no rissen.


you should know what these bikes are about(and iam sure you do know) Its called THE BRAND...to many many many people(and most are probably the people Honda have already impressed) there can only be one iconic honda..and its a v4.I didnt own a v4 Honda,but in sampling many many bikes over many many years there are bikes that even now impress me.
1) Vf 750 r,the thing had an absolutely effortless air about it,the way it handled and the way it made power....
2) Vf1000f not nearly as nice a bike as the 750 but the engine was everything.....
3) CBx1000...as above but more
4)GSX1100.....a mates one was sublime,but others i rode were horrible.

dated and narrow sample maybe...but of ALL the manufacturers a HONDA is probaly the only one i would consider if they built a "special" one.

[imdying]

Well I hope it's not $150k; would be very hard to justify it. The news coming from the Honda head honcho is encouraging :yes:

[Paul in NZ]

Oh Pooh - I forgot about this thread...

Anyway - getting back to it... I think my argument got turned about and I ended up arguing against it as a commercial idea which is NOT where I started. Where I came from was that IF Honda decide to do this, looking back at an RC30 isnt a great idea. That would be like building (in hommage to mr jellies post) an ultimate edition GoldWing as a 1000cc 4 when the std model had already surpassed it.

If they do it then it needs to be right out of the ball park, blow peoples minds, holy fuckin crap look at that....

Now - how about we think what THAT might look like? V5 two stroke? Hybrid powered? Hydrogen powered? Steam?

[bogan]

Oh Pooh - I forgot about this thread...

Anyway - getting back to it... I think my argument got turned about and I ended up arguing against it as a commercial idea which is NOT where I started. Where I came from was that IF Honda decide to do this, looking back at an RC30 isnt a great idea. That would be like building (in hommage to mr jellies post) an ultimate edition GoldWing as a 1000cc 4 when the std model had already surpassed it.

If they do it then it needs to be right out of the ball park, blow peoples minds, holy fuckin crap look at that....

Now - how about we think what THAT might look like? V5 two stroke? Hybrid powered? Hydrogen powered? Steam?

Its kind of like how Hollywood are going through a phase of sequels and comic/book movies. You get a cool movie for people to see, and you get the followers of the previous movie/comic/book turn up as well, win-win right?
So honda want to do the same with the RC30 followers, and fans of cool bikes. Its a great commercial idea, but paying tribute to such a great bike is risky, cos if they fuck it up...
But its honda, so they wont :D
Imo fucking it up would be; making it too much like the RC30 as there is no point in a carbon copy, or not making it better (must be lighter and more powerful, perhaps throw some active suspension in there or something), or not putting a SSSA on it.

[onearmedbandit]

Simply put, the RC30 was a racer for the road. That's all I'd expect for their next version, ie a road going RC213V. Leave hybrids/hydrogen powered/steam bikes to something other than the ultimate race replica. Like the RC30 was.

[onearmedbandit]

Reading some of the comments here has got me wondering whether some people think Honda are going to 're-engineer' the RC30 for the modern age.

[Pumba]

Speaking of Chinese innovation, is it wrong of me to want this for 3 grand?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-517216582.htm

Yes it is, you know it will start to rust the first time it gets wet and part will no doubt fall off on the first ride. But it is ok because I want one too:weird:

[bogan]

Reading some of the comments here has got me wondering whether some people think Honda are going to 're-engineer' the RC30 for the modern age.

Guess it depends how you read into the RC30 part, if its just doing the same thing they did with the RC30, which is to make a road going race bike then I wouldn't expect any of the RC30 to be present in the final design. But if they mean the design itself will be influenced by the RC30's, then I want to see a SSSA dammit!

Either way, can't wait to see what they come up with.

[imdying]

Reading some of the comments here has got me wondering whether some people think Honda are going to 're-engineer' the RC30 for the modern age.I think it's easy to forget that they have as rich a racing heritage as anybody; they don't have to hang their hat on it every moment like the Italian marques as they have an incredibly well rounded engineering base to draw from... the Italians... well, they don't have anything else.

[Drew]

Yes it is, you know it will start to rust the first time it gets wet and part will no doubt fall off on the first ride. But it is ok because I want one too:weird:

I want one too!

[Paul in NZ]

I think it's easy to forget that they have as rich a racing heritage as anybody; they don't have to hang their hat on it every moment like the Italian marques as they have an incredibly well rounded engineering base to draw from... the Italians... well, they don't have anything else.

But I'd like a 125cc 4 with a 16 speed gearbox...... (well actually I'd hate it but it would be cool to have)

[Paul in NZ]

Yes it is, you know it will start to rust the first time it gets wet and part will no doubt fall off on the first ride. But it is ok because I want one too:weird:

So its a really authentic copy of an early Honda then.... They could have left that bit out... (just kidding)

That with a CB175/200 twin engine would be fantastic....

[HenryDorsetCase]

Reading some of the comments here has got me wondering whether some people think Honda are going to 're-engineer' the RC30 for the modern age.

I'd be a starter for that to be fair.

[HenryDorsetCase]

But I'd like a 125cc 4 with a 16 speed gearbox...... (well actually I'd hate it but it would be cool to have)

a 16 speed gearbox you operate with your thumbs like a MTB

[onearmedbandit]

I'd be a starter for that to be fair.

Not me. Leave the RC30 where it is. Now an RC213V for the road? Not that I'd ever be able to get even 40% out of it myself I'd love to see one fly around the outside of me.

[Drew]

So its a really authentic copy of an early Honda then.... They could have left that bit out... (just kidding)

That with a CB175/200 twin engine would be fantastic....The CB175t made more horses than either of the other two. The 125 and 200 are exactly the same in output. I shit you not!

[Drew]

Not that I'd ever be able to get even 40% out of it myself I'd love to see one fly around the outside of me.Don't sell yourself short. A road going GP replica, will be fuck all better than Ducati's effort I am willing to bet.

Sweet, use the engine configuration, but why not change the direct of teh CBR by going V4 again?

With the technology there to make it compact, light, reliable, and cheap, there's no reason not to do it properly.

[Paul in NZ]

a 16 speed gearbox you operate with your thumbs like a MTB

Sensor in the helmet so it changes if you blink?

Maybe a sensor in the exhaust so it changes up at shriek x 2 and down at shriek / 2.....

[imdying]

With the technology there to make it compact, light, reliable, and cheap, there's no reason not to do it properly.That's what I want. I definitely don't need any more power, but I'll always happily take a smaller lighter bike.

[Bender]

How many RC30s were made? It probably numbers in the hundreds rather than thousands. It was a homologation special for world superbikes.

Yet it is still considered one of the best and most desirable Hondas.

There's a lesson in branding for you. And if Honda bring out a "road" version of the RCV they will be snapped up, whatever the price.

(The RC45 was a great bike but even fewer were produced than the RC 30 so that just a handful found their way into non-race hands. As a result the mystique about them is far smaller).

[Paul in NZ]

How many RC30s were made?

Dunno - but there is probably more now than the factory made... ;-)

[actungbaby]

You reckon this will happen? http://superbikeplanet.com/2012/Sep/120924rc32.htm

its is happening the president honda already said so based on the rc 213 v id say its

Why the want mr rea to stay in wsb to race it next year

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not me. Leave the RC30 where it is. Now an RC213V for the road? Not that I'd ever be able to get even 40% out of it myself I'd love to see one fly around the outside of me.

Best you start saving.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Sep/120928-00sanb.htm

[HenryDorsetCase]

Best you start saving.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Sep/120928-00sanb.htm

thats gotta be $500 worth of lego there!

[AllanB]

Cracks me up this talk of the IL4 being done .......... and there is BMW who never had one using that design to produce a competitive sport bike ...... guess they have no idea of what they are doing.

[Crasherfromwayback]

thats gotta be $500 worth of lego there!

Yeah it ain't an RC30 either.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Cracks me up this talk of the IL4 being done .......... and there is BMW who never had one using that design to produce a competitive sport bike ...... guess they have no idea of what they are doing.

Yeah the IL4 will never be done, or over. Modern electronics can sooth out the 'issues' it has.

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah it ain't an RC30 either.

Yeah looks like a couple of two stroke exhausts in the pic.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah looks like a couple of two stroke exhausts in the pic.

And a double sided s/a! Pretty good all the same though eh!

[tigertim20]

Cracks me up this talk of the IL4 being done .......... and there is BMW who never had one using that design to produce a competitive sport bike ...... guess they have no idea of what they are doing.

to be fair, bmw have been able to watch the big four for years, pick the bits that worked from those that didnt, and build a brand new engine from scratch, unlike the big four who had to try something and make constant small adjustments an existing platform in order to stay within R&D budgets - constant major changes to the platform are simply not viable, B<W started from scratch with the benefit of seeing years of BIG4 IL4 development.

what exactly do you think they could really improve on with the IL4s now? its at the point where the power delivery is so savage they have to add electronic aids to dumb down delivery because most of us mortals that buy the litre bikes simply cant control the full potential of these bikes.

[AllanB]

what exactly do you think they could really improve on with the IL4s now? its at the point where the power delivery is so savage they have to add electronic aids to dumb down delivery because most of us mortals that buy the litre bikes simply cant control the full potential of these bikes.


Someone soon will realise the IL4 engine is also able to produce huge amounts of torque and produce a absolute real world grunter that on any given public road at 'sane' speeds will eat the competition. Oh it needs reasonable hp too - prob with the retro bikes they produce is they all have soft engines in them.


If I was Honda I'd be looking at spinning a IL4 around 90 degrees and making a North-South kick arse cruiser.

[Crasherfromwayback]

.

what exactly do you think they could really improve on with the IL4s now? its at the point where the power delivery is so savage they have to add electronic aids to dumb down delivery because most of us mortals that buy the litre bikes simply cant control the full potential of these bikes.

That's not true at all mate. You ever ridden a Hayabusa? And a V-Four is no easier to ride than an IL4 if it has 250hp...as GP bikes do.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Someone soon will realise the IL4 engine is also able to produce huge amounts of torque and produce a absolute real world grunter that on any given public road at 'sane' speeds will eat the competition. .

GSX1300R & GSX1400 for example.

[tigertim20]

You ever ridden a Hayabusa? .

yes. when I talk about IL4, Im talking about the likes of zx10, gsxr etc etc engines, the crossplane R1 is an exception - Im talking about the traditional il4 layout.

I think its time for something new.
or at least a major revision, same old gets boring after a while, people like a point of difference.

sure look at the monster of a bike the newest ZX14 is, but it seems they need to increase the capacities to get that huge tourque. My interest at this point are probably narrower than yours, I really just interested in the litre sports bikes, and the 600s too, sure 12krpm on a thou, or 16krpm on a 600 is fun the first few times, but Id like something that doesnt require such a raping to produce the same thing.

To be fair, I dont really know exactly what I want them to do next, I want them to do something different, and then I will whinge about how shit that is too!:laugh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

, I really just interested in the litre sports bikes, and the 600s too, sure 12krpm on a thou, :

When they chase absolute HP...sure they can be a bit revvy etc. But a K3-K6 GSXR thousand engine is one of THE nicest, gruntiest engines built I reckon. It's a fucking gem.

[onearmedbandit]

When the chase absolute HP...sure they can be a bit revvy etc. But a K3-K6 GSXR thousand engine is one of THE nicest, gruntiest engines built I reckon. It's a fucking gem.

Oi geezer don't forget the K1/2!!

[vifferman]

you should know what these bikes are about(and iam sure you do know) Its called THE BRAND...to many many many people(and most are probably the people Honda have already impressed) there can only be one iconic honda..and its a v4.
Indeed.
Honda's big failing though is they've really failed to understand what Hondaphiles really want, especially V4 lovers. Before the 2002 VFR800 was released, many VFR owners on VFR forums were excited at the prospect of the next evolution of the VFR - the "6th Generation. Then disappointed, because:

It didn't have gear-driven cams any more (because the shift of the gear drive from the centre of the cams to the right side made the bike too noisy to meet Euro regs).
It had "V-tec", which wasn't Vtec at all, just a way of meeting Euro emissions regs.
It wasn't really a significant improvement at all, but a step backwards to camchains.
It wasn't significantly more powerful, different, exciting, sporty.

Then rumours started about the new (7th Generation); what would it be? Hopes were for a 1000cc MotoGP-derived sportsbike, lighter, faster, more exciting. The VFR1200 certainly took some design cues from the MotoGP engine, and had some new kewl features, like the dual-clutch auto transmission, shaft drive, new styling (blah). It also had electronically hobbled 1st and 2nd gear, in case noobs gave it too much throttle and looped it or spun out. By all accounts it's a great tourer, albeit one with a short range.

So. I've stuck with my 2001 VFR781, because I haven't seen anything else to tempt me yet. Haven't even ridden anything else in the last 8 years, apart from a 250 loaner bike. I discovered Honda V4s relatively late in my motorcyling life, in 1994, when I bought a 1985 VF500. That was replaced by a 1990 VFR750, that by a VTR1000, then the VFR800. It's not perfect; it needs more power, the cam drive noise drove me nuts for the first 18 months (much louder than the previous models); the suspension was too low budget; (since upgraded with Ohlins, Elka, Racetech parts); the SSSA is one of the ugliest on the market, as is the rear hub; the gearbox is usual Honda fare, so sticking a Factory Pro shifter kit in was one of my first jobs; the standard exhaust is heavy, ugly and over-muffled, but luckily a previous owner stuck a Satantune 'muffler' on (one of the reasons I bought it); blah blah modify this, alter that. It's still not my ideal V4, but I can't see Honda ever making one. So... I'll keep this one till it dies, I die, or I get bored and go back to a v-twin.

[tigertim20]

When the chase absolute HP...sure they can be a bit revvy etc. But a K3-K6 GSXR thousand engine is one of THE nicest, gruntiest engines built I reckon. It's a fucking gem.

hmm. I dont find the K4 thou that impressive, I expected it to provide a little more . . . something. . . than it does. I find my 01 R1 more exciting on the gas, I expected the injection etc etc to, I dunno, it just doesnt seem any more impressive than the R1. It doesnt turn in nearly as well either, but by fuck are the brakes a hell of a step forward!!

[Drew]

hmm. I dont find the K4 thou that impressive, I expected it to provide a little more . . . something. . . than it does. I find my 01 R1 more exciting on the gas, I expected the injection etc etc to, I dunno, it just doesnt seem any more impressive than the R1. It doesnt turn in nearly as well either, but by fuck are the brakes a hell of a step forward!!Are you aware that set up is important?If you can't make a k4 turn in, you're doing it wrong!

[actungbaby]

The CB175t made more horses than either of the other two. The 125 and 200 are exactly the same in output. I shit you not!

They said these where great bikes i rode a loaner seemed vibrate alot put me of theres one on trademe

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-517401467.htm

opps its a 125 but its cheap as chips

[Drew]

They said these where great bikes i rode a loaner seemed vibrate alot put me of theres one on trademe

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-517401467.htm

opps its a 125 but its cheap as chipsYou might be surprised at what that sells for at the end. If a couple bucket racers get it in their head they want it, and start out bidding each other.

I'd buy it if it was only gonna be $100

[Swoop]

After the disappointment with the VFR1200, I await further progress.

Once the engineers have done their thing and then the OSH man fucks things up with emission controls, etc, the "asthetic" designer comes along and "styles" the outside.

Dear Mr Honda.
Don't do to this bike what you did to the 1200.

[Drew]

Lots of big long posts. I glean from one that no one except Yamaha are making a good inline motor that isn't savage.

Whoever wrote that needs to try riding the pile of shit back to back, with any other manufacturers inline of the same year.

[tigertim20]

Are you aware that set up is important?If you can't make a k4 turn in, you're doing it wrong!

are you aware that not reading a post properly before replying makes you look stupid?

what I said was

it just doesnt seem any more impressive than the R1. It doesnt turn in nearly as well either,

I didnt say the K4 is awful I said it doesnt turn in as well as my R1, which is older.
I would say that you are welcome to come around and try them back to back and see for yourself that my comment is accurate, however seeing as your reputation for crashing things is even worse than mine, It would seem foolish to make such an offer.

[Drew]

are you aware that not reading a post properly before replying makes you look stupid?

what I said was


I didnt say the K4 is awful I said it doesnt turn in as well as my R1, which is older.
I would say that you are welcome to come around and try them back to back and see for yourself that my comment is accurate, however seeing as your reputation for crashing things is even worse than mine, It would seem foolish to make such an offer. You say the R1 turns in better. Cool, the geometry is close for the way you ride, I still maintain you're doing it wrong on the K4.

K4 doesn't turn in as well, mmmkay, lets see if it's on the same tyres around the same state of wear. I'll assume they are in spite of the likelyhood. So lets drop the front end a bit, to sharpen it up.

These things are not just meant to look like race bikes, they are pretty fuckin trick pieces of kit. Anything capable of doing amazing things on a race track, needs to be tuned to the operator.

I fully understand you not wanting me to ride it, I hide my own keys from me ya know. Lucky I'm stupid, so I can't find them aye.

[Ocean1]

Now - how about we think what THAT might look like? V5 two stroke? Hybrid powered? Hydrogen powered? Steam?

I once heard the term “the Buell mistake”, in reference to new models with so many radical features the market wouldn’t accept them, regardless of performance. It applies to other markets too, as I’m sure you know. Fashion drives all, we say we want cutting edge technology, but what sells is anything our mates approve of.


to be fair, bmw have been able to watch the big four for years, pick the bits that worked from those that didnt, and build a brand new engine from scratch, unlike the big four who had to try something and make constant small adjustments an existing platform in order to stay within R&D budgets - constant major changes to the platform are simply not viable, B<W started from scratch.

Kaizen. It’s what the Japanese do, they invented it and they still do it better than anyone. The goal isn't usually excellence in applied technology, though, it's a shape the market game. Except Honda. Sometimes.

[AllanB]

GSX1300R & GSX1400 for example.

Yeah, but I reckon they could do better ......

[imdying]

Well, I've registered my interest at least... I've no idea if it'll be in my price range, but you gotta be in to win.

It better come in Repsol colours though.

[Drew]

It better come in Repsol colours though.Up until now, I had put no stock in the rumor that you liked cock...

[tigertim20]

You say the R1 turns in better. Cool, the geometry is close for the way you ride, I still maintain you're doing it wrong on the K4.

K4 doesn't turn in as well, mmmkay, lets see if it's on the same tyres around the same state of wear. I'll assume they are in spite of the likelyhood. So lets drop the front end a bit, to sharpen it up.

These things are not just meant to look like race bikes, they are pretty fuckin trick pieces of kit. Anything capable of doing amazing things on a race track, needs to be tuned to the operator.

I fully understand you not wanting me to ride it, I hide my own keys from me ya know. Lucky I'm stupid, so I can't find them aye.

and I will still maintain that you're wrong!!:laugh:

guess we have to agree to disagree!. The thing I do find really impressive about the K4 compared to the R1, the K4 brakes are way better, even though the R1 brakes have had money spent on them, and the K4's are still stock

[Drew]

and I will still maintain that you're wrong!!:laugh:

guess we have to agree to disagree!. The thing I do find really impressive about the K4 compared to the R1, the K4 brakes are way better, even though the R1 brakes have had money spent on them, and the K4's are still stock

Was meant to be a huge improvement from the K1/2, but I couldn't fault the earlier bikes picks to begin with. More feel maybe, haven't spent any time on the K4 to speak of though.

Seriously though, drop the triple clamps 5mm down the forks. It will transform the way the bike turns.

[imdying]

Up until now, I had put no stock in the rumor that you liked cock...

Fuck bro I gobble that shit like a pro....

270925

New suit, new tyres, sun shine... was a good day!

[codgyoleracer]

Was meant to be a huge improvement from the K1/2, but I couldn't fault the earlier bikes picks to begin with. More feel maybe, haven't spent any time on the K4 to speak of though.

Seriously though, drop the triple clamps 5mm down the forks. It will transform the way the bike turns.


Other than the fact that the K4 feels like your sitting on a beer barrel, it beats the R1 in every respect IMO.

Honda will need to do their homework to bring a V4 to the market that has the performance as well as a price that allows it to sell in a tough market. Yamahas big bang unit is an awesome litre class road bike - and a not so old 2nd hand one can be picked up cheap as chips.

[Drew]

Other than the fact that the K4 feels like your sitting on a beer barrel, it beats the R1 in every respect IMO.

Honda will need to do their homework to bring a V4 to the market that has the performance as well as a price that allows it to sell in a tough market. Yamahas big bang unit is an awesome litre class road bike - and a not so old 2nd hand one can be picked up cheap as chips.This thread perfectly devides those of us who are all about function, and those who love form.

I and others talk as though the bike should be a road going, mass produced sports bike.

There are those who think it should be a limited run of collectables.

Problem with collectables, their all shit. The NR750 gives me wood, but it's fuckin useless as a rider. The Desmocidici is rubbish, and ugly.

The crossplane (not big bang Glen, the cylinders all fire seperately, instead of two at a time), was a massive change in direction, to be continued on for some time. So it sold big.

[codgyoleracer]

This thread perfectly devides those of us who are all about function, and those who love form.

I and others talk as though the bike should be a road going, mass produced sports bike.

There are those who think it should be a limited run of collectables.

Problem with collectables, their all shit. The NR750 gives me wood, but it's fuckin useless as a rider. The Desmocidici is rubbish, and ugly.

The crossplane (not big bang Glen, the cylinders all fire seperately, instead of two at a time), was a massive change in direction, to be continued on for some time. So it sold big.


Big bang, Shming Shmang - dont care.
R1 is a great Mota but would be good to see the Fugly looks and 20kg dissapear one day soon. If i had to buy a modern litre class bike and get value for money then the R1 would be it. If i went with my heart - then an RSV4 would probaly just pip a big duke sitting in my garage.

[Drew]

Big bang, Shming Shmang - dont care.
R1 is a great Mota but would be good to see the Fugly looks and 20kg dissapear one day soon. If i had to buy a modern litre class bike and get value for money then the R1 would be it. If i went with my heart - then an RSV4 would probaly just pip a big duke sitting in my garage.

I'm not a fan of the delivery from the R1, I think it needs to be tuned to smooth the throttle response. And for a manufacturer to release a bike with a high side happy throttle, is a fail I'd have thought.

Everything considered, I'd likely have an S1000rr in the shed, or the new Ducati if it measures up to the hype. If I had money of course.

Back on topic though, Honda need a bike that's desirable to the masses. The cbr1000 is boring, and doesn't measure up to the rest of the field. A good V4 would certainly change that, if they make it for the common man, instead of losers and collectors.

[willytheekid]

Ive been lusting over this guys creation for a few weeks now.
He's been waiting for Honda to build a new 1000cc V4....he gave up, and built his own :niceone:

It maybe an oldie, slow by todays standards, and probly dosn't handle as well as a modern bike....but god damn!...its one sexy road legal V4 :yes:

[nudemetalz]

Ive been lusting over this guys creation for a few weeks now.
He's been waiting for Honda to build a new 1000cc V4....he gave up, and built his own :niceone:

It maybe an oldie, slow by todays standards, and probly dosn't handle as well as a modern bike....but god damn!...its one sexy road legal V4 :yes:

Very cool looking 1000R !!

[bogan]

The crossplane (not big bang Glen, the cylinders all fire seperately, instead of two at a time), was a massive change in direction, to be continued on for some time. So it sold big.

Big bang just means firing them all in quickest succession doesn't it? With the crossplane crank, all four cylinders are at different crank angles, so they must all fire separately, but if it were all still on the same rotation, it could still be a big bang, as the next rotation all 4 would be going through the exhaust/intake phases. But apparently Yamaha went with 'uneven bang' instead, which is a firing interval of 270°-180°-90°-180°

[actungbaby]

Ive been lusting over this guys creation for a few weeks now.
He's been waiting for Honda to build a new 1000cc V4....he gave up, and built his own :niceone:

It maybe an oldie, slow by todays standards, and probly dosn't handle as well as a modern bike....but god damn!...its one sexy road legal V4 :yes:

god dam i better have lie down and cup of water yes yes

[actungbaby]

You might be surprised at what that sells for at the end. If a couple bucket racers get it in their head they want it, and start out bidding each other.

I'd buy it if it was only gonna be $100


Am tempted myself (i need help ) intervention please hehe

[Drew]

Big bang just means firing them all in quickest succession doesn't it? With the crossplane crank, all four cylinders are at different crank angles, so they must all fire separately, but if it were all still on the same rotation, it could still be a big bang, as the next rotation all 4 would be going through the exhaust/intake phases. But apparently Yamaha went with 'uneven bang' instead, which is a firing interval of 270°-180°-90°-180°The R1 cross plane, fires all 4 slugs in the first 360 degrees. Then spins a full 360 and starts again. So starting at a bang, 0-90-180-270...360 later it starts a compression stroke for numero uno again.

Big bang is usually done with a v4, where they fire two slugs at the same time. Essentially running it as a V-twin, but a twin that's capable of pulling 16,000rpm, instead of flying apart at 13,000.