SV650 engine in VFR400 frame progress

[vtec]

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/BUQyN.jpg" height="1024px" />

Custom engine mounts welded to frame, engine installed, suspension reinstalled.

Now hurdles to overcome:
Need somewhere to put radiator/s.
Need to get an exhaust fabricated to suit the VFR frame.
Front forks from the VFR are in terrible condition.
Brakes need a lot of work too, and I don't have any discs.
Have to figure out how to run the loom.

Jason

[HenryDorsetCase]

the first thing I thought was "Where the hell are the rads going to go?" SP1 style beside the motor? You'd need a custom fairing to duct air through it though.

Have a look on 400greybike at the build threads, there is at least one there dealing with a full CB600 front end transplant: not sure if it included the yokes or they were custom. from memory, the thing was almost a straight boltup. You might pick something more modern up for the cost of a full fork rebuild on the NC30 forks: for a bit more you might get USD, radial brakes, a lighter wheel etc. I have been looking for a decent second hand set now for a while: they dont come up very often. I love builds like this: please keep th thread updated :)

great job so far: how much of a pain in the arse was fabricating the mounts and welding them on? How did you go with chain alignment? did you heat treat the frame after welding?

[Mental Trousers]

Good stuff.

Thought you'd be further along by now but still, it's progress.

You're definitely going to need a heat shield for the rear shock. Otherwise it'll cook the fluid in 2 laps.

The rear exhaust is going to be a bit of a prick most likely. I'm guessing you can't route it the same way the originals were?

Firestorm style radiators or Britten style underseat, although the latter requires ducting.

[vtec]

I'm going to look at Motorcross radiators and try and mount them either side of the head.
Going to just use standard suspension for now and worry about that at a later date I decided tonight. I had a look at a whole range of front end options, and I think it's best not to mess with the VFR geometry, and just sort out spring rates and dampening once the bike is running.
I have a good friend who works as an engineer and I was living in his house with a mill and a lathe in the garage. He did most of the design and fabrication and I only really got involved when filing and hacksawing needed doing as I don't want to learn how to mill and lathe on his equipment. He's pretty quick too. We sat the engine on a couple of blocks and lowered the frame over the engine, and lined up the sprockets as best we could and measured where to put the first mount on. Then we put the frame on the mill and used that to line it up perfectly and fabricated the first mount and stuck it to the frame with clamps, and he tack welded them. Then mounted the frame on the engine again and worked out the next set of mounts positions, put it on the mill again and cut the bits out of the frame we needed to and installed the custom mounts, 1 set of the mounts were plugs in the frame and the other were cylinders welded to the bottom of the frame (so the frame is a little lower than original because the engine is taller center of gravity still about the same. The last mounts were plate and cylinder ones welded to the frame square section about halfway towards the head.

The mount fabrication and installation and frame modifications were an absolute mission and I would not recommend anyone to follow in our footsteps, but I do think the hardest part of the job is done, and it's all comparatively straight forward from here, still it's going to be a long slow labour of love.

No we didn't heat treat it after the welding. The welding was done by a robotics installation workshop for me and the resident expert didn't recommend heat treating, but he didn't not recommend it either. I think it's more important for stainless than aluminium though. I'm very happy with how the engine is mounted in the frame and the sprockets line up, and the weight distribution. This was the make or break part of this hybrid creation.

Jason




the first thing I thought was "Where the hell are the rads going to go?" SP1 style beside the motor? You'd need a custom fairing to duct air through it though.

Have a look on 400greybike at the build threads, there is at least one there dealing with a full CB600 front end transplant: not sure if it included the yokes or they were custom. from memory, the thing was almost a straight boltup. You might pick something more modern up for the cost of a full fork rebuild on the NC30 forks: for a bit more you might get USD, radial brakes, a lighter wheel etc. I have been looking for a decent second hand set now for a while: they dont come up very often. I love builds like this: please keep th thread updated :)

great job so far: how much of a pain in the arse was fabricating the mounts and welding them on? How did you go with chain alignment? did you heat treat the frame after welding?

[vtec]

Hey man don't put pressure on me, good things take time.
Haven't thought much about the exhaust yet. Figured if they can get 4 cylinders exhausted in that space I should be able to get two.
Yeah man, also considering underseat radiators, will see how we get on with up fronts first.

How's your Honda CBR600/450 build going?

Jason


Good stuff.

Thought you'd be further along by now but still, it's progress.

You're definitely going to need a heat shield for the rear shock. Otherwise it'll cook the fluid in 2 laps.

The rear exhaust is going to be a bit of a prick most likely. I'm guessing you can't route it the same way the originals were?

Firestorm style radiators or Britten style underseat, although the latter requires ducting.

[Drew]

Rear head seems to be nice and high, run the pipe straight back under the tail from there, and the front one under slung.

MX radiators prolly not big enough, SP1 styles for the win methinks.

Fuckin cool build!

[vtec]

Rear head seems to be nice and high, run the pipe straight back under the tail from there, and the front one under slung.

MX radiators prolly not big enough, SP1 styles for the win methinks.

Fuckin cool build!

Thanks for the advice Drew. I have VFR race fairings that I was hoping to use, but you are probably right, most likely end up putting them on the side. Are you sure 2x Motorcross radiators wouldn't be enough?

[Drew]

Thanks for the advice Drew. I have VFR race fairings that I was hoping to use, but you are probably right, most likely end up putting them on the side. Are you sure 2x Motorcross radiators wouldn't be enough?

They run real low volume to keep the weight down on MX bikes, just doesn't seem like the best plan.

SP1 style doesn't mean the radiators have to come from an SP1. Couple small rads off any number of bikes could be the go.

[Juzz976]

https://www.allballsracing.com/index.php/forkconversion

might be handy if swapping front end.

You wont need a large radiator unless you plan to sit in traffic.

As you've got a SSSA the exhaust will be a bit easier.

I like Sam's TL1000S, he's got an awesome bike there. tlzone is a good place for ideas.

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/bike-pictures/128302-nice-pic-1080-last-year.html

[Mental Trousers]

Hey man don't put pressure on me, good things take time.
Haven't thought much about the exhaust yet. Figured if they can get 4 cylinders exhausted in that space I should be able to get two.
Yeah man, also considering underseat radiators, will see how we get on with up fronts first.

How's your Honda CBR600/450 build going?

Jason

heh, I wanna see it racing mate. I like bike builds that aren't as the manufacturer intended.

The 450 is all but ready. Dennis has finished going over the suspension (cos it was sitting for 4.5 years ALL of the seals were weeping etc) and I just have to pick it up. I've got to sort the gear linkage and install the quick shifter and she's done. Fairings are off being painted. Problem is the first ride will be at the Vic Club final round so no chance to get used to it.

[Grumph]

The big question for me is - does the standard airbox fit ?

[HenryDorsetCase]

The big question for me is - does the standard airbox fit ?

an NC30 airbox would because it would sit in front of that rear cylinder head. It would do you fuckall good though, given where the NC30 intakes are vs this....

[Grumph]

I'll restate it - does the standard SV650 airbox fit ?

Given the F3 rules, if it doesn't it's a pointless build....

[Mental Trousers]

I'll restate it - does the standard SV650 airbox fit ?

Given the F3 rules, if it doesn't it's a pointless build....

The VFR frame is wider, although the rails are taller. However, the airbox sits between the rails on the SV. The biggest problem with it is feeding the air into it as you can guarantee the intake holes in the frame won't line up at all.

http://www.sv650.org/derestriction/derestrict_SV650K2_step0.jpg

I would've thought it'd be the petrol tank that'd be the problem.

[tigertim20]

fuckin cool project man!

please invest in a less shit camera, and keep the pics and updates coming, I love seeing these unique, oddball creations and projects!!!!:headbang:

[vtec]

Yes I can get it to fit, I just put the injectors on tonight. Didn't realise there were rules about the airbox for F3. Will be making a custom or heavily modified tank and subframe.

What other rules do I need to watch out for. We've still got a lot of hurdles before it could be considered raceworthy.

Jason


I'll restate it - does the standard SV650 airbox fit ?

Given the F3 rules, if it doesn't it's a pointless build....

[vtec]

fuckin cool project man!

please invest in a less shit camera, and keep the pics and updates coming, I love seeing these unique, oddball creations and projects!!!!:headbang:

Thanks for the support. I've only got onboard cameras and cellphone cameras. Will be getting a nicer cellphone soon, so better pics to come.

Update from tonight, put the injectors on, got some nicer bolts for the rear shock and linkage. Found the clipon bars for the VFR forks. Started planning the exhaust and radiator again. The front exhaust exit is quite close to the front wheel so I'm going to have to do a sharp turn straight out of the head. I think I'm going to have to look at professional assistance for the exhaust.

Might be able to run a narrow wide radiator above the head behind the forks. It might need to be a custom one though, will have to work out the surface area of the standard SV radiator and get something with similar port sizes and surface area.

Jason

[roadracingoldfart]

Novel build , i like and will watch with interest. Remember the radiator can be from any brand , type etc so open to whats going to fit the best. Are you sure the stock item cant be fitted with new pipes to feed it ? ( on the side of the bike i mean)
As Drew says , get the pipe for at least the rear out the tail and stubby the front one if it cant be linked easily.

[ktm84mxc]

Most MX bikes only carry 1-1.2 lts of coolant in there systems , a road bike like the SV would carry up 2 lts if not more, you could always fit fans to help with the air flow if side mounting the radiators.

[Drew]

Hmmm, "must retain the standard airbox". Doesn't say it has to be utilised at all.

Tape it to the rear cowling!

[HenryDorsetCase]

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2012/10/01/vtr-1000-super-hawk-another-super-subtle-custom-build-by-alex-zemlin/

check the rad location and read the blurb about how/why/what.

very interesting. Also a super sanitary bike that looks like a VTR 250 but 1000 cc. Who wouldnt want one?

[Drew]

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2012/10/01/vtr-1000-super-hawk-another-super-subtle-custom-build-by-alex-zemlin/

check the rad location and read the blurb about how/why/what.

very interesting. Also a super sanitary bike that looks like a VTR 250 but 1000 cc. Who wouldnt want one?
Radiator under the seat is fuckin hard to make reliable for a race bike that's getting it's arse thrashed non stop. The Britten worked, but he moulded the fairing right from scratch to do so.

[Mental Trousers]

There's a Benelli run by a South African (??) dude with dreads that's got an underseat radiator. That one has an extractor fan at the back to draw air through the radiator.

[Drew]

There's a Benelli run by a South African (??) dude with dreads that's got an underseat radiator. That one has an extractor fan at the back to draw air through the radiator.You're talkin about that heap of shit that runs at Paeroa? I thought it was an FZR1000 with a fuckin rough underseat pipe and a humerous fan inside it.

[Mental Trousers]

You're talkin about that heap of shit that runs at Paeroa? I thought it was an FZR1000 with a fuckin rough underseat pipe and a humerous fan inside it.

That's the one. Apparently it's a Benelli Tornado


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Benelli_Tornado_1130.jpg

[Drew]

That's the one. Apparently it's a Benelli TornadoReckon you've been led down the garden path man. But it's been a while since I saw the bike.

[Mental Trousers]

Nah bro, the entire seat/tail/radiator/etc is identical to the one in the photo. Unless he did an exceptional job of grafting the entire backend of a Tornado onto a ZX10. Which I doubt.

[ktm84mxc]

Those Benelli tres pop on Ebay state side on , nice looking bikes a bit like a Triumph Daytona/955i parts would be an issue here though. Performance Bike did a write up on them a while back good bike with bags of character and cheap to boot. There's a naked version also called the TNT similar to the Brutale.

[ducatilover]

You'd know it's a TRE 900 because it's a triple, if you can't tell a triple noise from a four, you're not a real man.


Love the SV/Viffer

[ktm84mxc]

There's a lot of those Benelli's on EBAY UK you can buy a new one for as little as 6-7 thousand pounds when you compare that to NZ$ a good buy , didn't Peter Goddard have a bit to do with the TRE in superbikes?

[vtec]

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2012/10/01/vtr-1000-super-hawk-another-super-subtle-custom-build-by-alex-zemlin/

check the rad location and read the blurb about how/why/what.

very interesting. Also a super sanitary bike that looks like a VTR 250 but 1000 cc. Who wouldnt want one?

Wow, I hadn't even visualised it. Thanks heaps.

Update. I've been helping my mate (who helped me build the bike) with getting his house ready for renting. But we have the next steps planned. Have to take the airbox off, injectors off, drop the engine, rear swingarm off again, forks off. So we can do some more frame welding.

[hayd3n]

Wow, I hadn't even visualised it. Thanks heaps.

Update. I've been helping my mate (who helped me build the bike) with getting his house ready for renting. But we have the next steps planned. Have to take the airbox off, injectors off, drop the engine, rear swingarm off again, forks off. So we can do some more frame welding.

it wouldent be to hard to fabricate some adpator plates for the airbox

[vtec]

Progress: Have an exhaust system as of today thanks to Peter at Custom Chambers, East Tamaki, bad ass, tuned for good power to 11,000rpm. Still no final radiator idea yet.
Have had to remove the oil radiator. Will mount the oil radiator where the top VFR400 radiator used to go. Then maybe some side radiators, will go to a professional for the radiators aswell. Peter was great value and has 34 years of experience. Feel I just got lucky as he was the first exhaust guy I went to. He whipped this up in one day, only gave him the bike this morning and the muffler at 4pm this avo. All fitted now.
http://i.imgur.com/dGcMlOW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9yY1btS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0wg7sa4.jpg
Better pics courtesy of new cellphone thanks to the boss at ThermoTech... a badass Galaxy S3.

Took this long for an update as we had to remove the engine and reweld in a cross member that I'd cut out realising that it now fit just fine. Also, have only been able to work on it one night every two weeks approx.

Jason

[tigertim20]

looking awesome! keep up the great work, one of the more interesting build threads in a while!

[vtec]

Progress, fired it up today, check it out in this vid.

First firing. (Well second really) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_-sFzcleo)

http://i.imgur.com/fVk1hau.jpg

[willytheekid]

Progress, fired it up today, check it out in this vid.

First firing. (Well second really) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_-sFzcleo)



:laugh::clap: LOVE IT!!!

congrats on the 1st fire up

[Icemaestro]

Wow awesome! I haven't gone back far - sv650 loom, dash and cables? And will that be the final place of the cooler(s) on the side there, could be some interesting bodywork?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mr bucketracer]

bet you are glade you have got this far ! it was around 3 years ago you told me at HD's you were building this , i was with glen williams

[neil_cb125t]

hey dude - long time no see - Yep this type of converison is slow - but once the frame and heavy fabrication is done you can make good progress quickly. It took us about 6 months to get my ZXR frame ready for the ER650 motor. Then another 6 months before it was track ready.

If you hit any snags then flick me a line, we went through all the same issues like radiators, Chain length and tensioned rollers to keep them off the frame, exhuast, shifter linkages.

i never had a std ER dash, i bought a flash datalogger dash - but any aftermarker styled one will work just as good as a std one and be lighter and probably cheaper.

all you need is 90RWHP and you'll be in business........

[tigertim20]

long time no updates!
Glad to see it wasn't relegated permanently to the back of the shed!.
Any ideas on fairings for it, or you gonna go the naked route?
SP2 fairings might go well on it given the radiator placement

[JanBros]

Hi,

normaly I only read the ESE-topic, but just had a look on what people are building here and came across this. nice project.

I myself stuck an SV650 engine in a KR1S frame. not for racing, but I wanted a reliable bike with the same power but loads of more torque as my "original" KR1S for when the misses goes along for a ride.

solved my radiator-problem by using the top one of your NC30 and aother one from a 50cc Gilera under the front cylinder. When the injection and it's dash were still on it (swapped injection later for carb's), temperature under normal fast street riding always stayed arround +/- 80°.

http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/KR1-SV/0205.jpg

http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/KR1-SV/0200.jpg

http://www.kr-1s.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=67

[Coyote]

Only just noticed a notification to this thread as I was clearing out my emails. Haven't been here in a while...

Fantastic work!

What's the next job on it?

[vtec]

Finished. Just got small improvements to make over time now :)

https://i.imgur.com/qO9CSwS.jpg

More pics here: https://imgur.com/a/j5VtV9p

[Coyote]

Well done dude. Didn't take too long did it?

How does it ride? Worth the effort?

[vtec]

Hehe.

It rides incredible. Somehow feels more nimble than a normal VFR400R, and more powerful than a normal SV650. I weighed it today, and it's a mere 160kg wet, with lights. It'd be about 156kg without lights. with a 51% 49% rear bias. I'm so excited about how light it is because I didn't expect that. It's noticeably lighter than either a VFR or an SV. And even though it's longer and lower than an SV and geared really tall for about 100kph in first, it's right on the cusp of pure power wheelies in first while keeping tucked down.

My mate Todd rode it today, and described it as riding a bull. I describe it as like riding a shotgun blast. The exhaust sounds incredible. It runs so smooth, and so incredibly torquey.

Seriously. I'm in love.

Edit: A VFR400R weighs 182kg wet. So it's over 20kg lighter than a normal VFR. And an SV650 weighs 198kg wet, so it's about 40kg lighter than a normal SV650. I might have done something amazing unwittingly.

[Coyote]

Man. You've got me keen on making one now. I've got enough projects as it is though.

Are you able to do a build write up as a bit of an instructional course on how to do it yourself?

My idea for big power in a small frame will hopefully involve a MX engine in a Honda Cub.

[vtec]

Man. You've got me keen on making one now. I've got enough projects as it is though.

Are you able to do a build write up as a bit of an instructional course on how to do it yourself?

My idea for big power in a small frame will hopefully involve a MX engine in a Honda Cub.

Do not attempt this build. There's a hundred ways to screw it up. You need some pretty awesome engineering help with the frame mounting. There's so much labour in this bike. It's genuinely not worth it, unless you want an F3 winning bike. If you start it I would put $1000 on you never finishing the build. It was legitimately painful for some of those years.

Seriously, go for the MX engine in a little bike. Far easier. NSR250 frame with 450 single MX engine. Hit up Nicky, she's got an RS GP frame with a big MX engine in it. She tries to sell it every now and again.