The Mosquito lives!

[nudemetalz]

First flight yesterday.
What a beautiful machine !!!!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/turbo_NZ/241592_10151118310029713_1531899709_oaaaaa.jpg

[jim.cox]

Yay - can't wait to see it in the flesh (or is that plywood?)

[Paul in NZ]

Amazing effort... Bloody good on em....

[Macontour]

Beautiful! Where's the video? Only one left flying in the whole wide world!!! Have to work or I would be at Ardmore tomorrow too.

[Kiwi Graham]

Anyone know the pilot?
Get him to do a fly past at HD I'd love to see it.

[gijoe1313]

Saw it flying around yesterday, had my class at the windows looking out for it. I had to explain some basic facts about it for them - was a bit too far away for them to see details, but they did comment it "goes pretty fast for an old plane!"

One of my favourite planes!

[pzkpfw]

Awesome.

One of the most fascinating things about WWII for me is the pace of technology moving. e.g. Most sides started with at least some biplanes in action (Swordfish!). The Brits, Germans and Yanks had jets by the end.

Here's a plane with piston engines, made largely of wood, and still used years after WWII ended.

Awesome.

[MisterD]

Always had a major soft spot for the Mossie because my old man worked for the company that made the glue that held it together ("Aerolite" made by Aero Research, which became Ciba Geigy, down the road from the Imperial War Museum at Duxford).

Any of you that have ever used Araldite, which I guess is all of you, have a small link there too. ARaLdite...from Aero Research Limited.

Also, what's better than a Merlin engine? Two of them!

[gijoe1313]

Always found it fascinating learning about the Mossie, like how all the piano craftsman, joiners and carpenters and anyone involved with working with wood were utilised to construct these wonders.

The glue thing made me think about when they were used in the Pacific and how they would start delaminating due to the heat and humidity and they needed to readjust the glue properties to keep them flying!

Very very cool cool planes (like the Catalina they got there as well!)

[nudemetalz]

Beautiful! Where's the video? Only one left flying in the whole wide world!!! Have to work or I would be at Ardmore tomorrow too.

Here ya go ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEyDlgJYIF8

[Paul in NZ]

Awesome.

One of the most fascinating things about WWII for me is the pace of technology moving. e.g. Most sides started with at least some biplanes in action (Swordfish!). The Brits, Germans and Yanks had jets by the end.

Here's a plane with piston engines, made largely of wood, and still used years after WWII ended.

Awesome.

Whats more it carried much the same payload (4,000lb) as a B17 on long range missions.. 2 crew and a simple fast plane vs 10 crew in a complex behemoth...

B17 - Short range missions (<400 mi): 8,000 lb (3,600 kg), Long range missions (≈800 mi): 4,500 lb (2,000 kg)

Brilliant concept

[Swoop]

Truly impressive. They have been working some long hours to get her in the air.
Hopefully the weather is good tomorrow for the airshow!



Most sides started with at least some biplanes in action (Swordfish!).
The Sword was one of the few aircraft to outlive its replacement aircraft!

[MisterD]

The Sword was one of the few aircraft to outlive its replacement aircraft!

I didn't know that, but I did know that they flew too slowly for the Bismark's guns to target them.

[Swoop]

I didn't know that, but I did know that they flew too slowly for the Bismark's guns to target them.
I watched the Ark Royal series on ewechoob the other week (A+ review). An older gentleman came aboard who turned out to be the pilot of the Sword that dropped the torpedo!

[SPman]

Anyone know the pilot?
Get him to do a fly past at HD I'd love to see it.
Dave Philips or Keith Skilling? Guess you'll have to go over the Ardmore for a look-see.
Otherwise watch vicariously on line at all the videos and pix being posted, like I have to..........fuckit!

[nudemetalz]

'twas Keith Skilling I believe.

[awa355]

My uncle was the bomb aimer in a Mossie during the war. He had two more missions to fly before being pulled off operations. His plane got hit over France on a raid. They cleared the English coast and crashed about a mile inland. None survived.

[pete376403]

The build featured on Close-Up earlier in the week, and then again last night. Said the plane would be shown at Ardmore, then off to the the US. Does that mean its been sold to some billionaire over there?

[Pussy]

'twas Keith Skilling I believe.

David Phillips?

[Kickaha]

Whats more it carried much the same payload (4,000lb) as a B17 on long range missions.. 2 crew and a simple fast plane vs 10 crew in a complex behemoth...

B17 - Short range missions (<400 mi): 8,000 lb (3,600 kg), Long range missions (≈800 mi): 4,500 lb (2,000 kg)

Brilliant concept

It was suggested at one stage they build more Mosquitos and quit the Lancasters

Mosquito - the alternative strategic bomber http://www.2worldwar2.com/mosquito-2.htm
Bomber command used the De Havilland Mosquito to improve the very poor accuracy of the heavy bombers and to reduce their losses, but it refused to consider the alternative, which was finally adopted only after World War 2 and dominates modern air power since. The alternative was to replace the big and slow and expensive heavy bombers with the Mosquito as Bomber command's main bomber. The points in favor of this alternative were also clearly presented by group commander Bennett, as a comparison between the Mosquito and the Lancaster, which was the best British heavy bomber:

Mosquito carries to Berlin half the bomb load carried by a Lancaster, but...
Mosquito loss rate is just 1/10 of Lancasters' loss rate
Mosquito costs a third of the cost of a Lancaster
Mosquito has a crew of two, compared to a Lancaster's crew of seven
Mosquito was a proven precision day bomber and the Lancaster was not.

Bennett added that any way you do the math with those data, "It's quite clear that the value of the Mosquito to the war effort is significantly greater than that of any other aircraft in the history of aviation". In the German side, Erhard Milch, the deputy head of the Luftwaffe, said about the Mosquito "I fear that one day the British will start attacking with masses of this aircraft". But in one of the greatest allied mistakes in World War 2, bomber command persisted with its heavy bombers, and less than 1/4 of the Mosquitoes produced were of bomber types
Bomber command used the De Havilland Mosquito to improve the very poor accuracy of the heavy bombers and to reduce their losses, but it refused to consider the alternative, which was finally adopted only after World War 2 and dominates modern air power since. The alternative was to replace the big and slow and expensive heavy bombers with the Mosquito as Bomber command's main bomber. The points in favor of this alternative were also clearly presented by group commander Bennett, as a comparison between the Mosquito and the Lancaster, which was the best British heavy bomber:

Mosquito carries to Berlin half the bomb load carried by a Lancaster, but...
Mosquito loss rate is just 1/10 of Lancasters' loss rate
Mosquito costs a third of the cost of a Lancaster
Mosquito has a crew of two, compared to a Lancaster's crew of seven
Mosquito was a proven precision day bomber and the Lancaster was not.

Bennett added that any way you do the math with those data, "It's quite clear that the value of the Mosquito to the war effort is significantly greater than that of any other aircraft in the history of aviation". In the German side, Erhard Milch, the deputy head of the Luftwaffe, said about the Mosquito "I fear that one day the British will start attacking with masses of this aircraft". But in one of the greatest allied mistakes in World War 2, bomber command persisted with its heavy bombers, and less than 1/4 of the Mosquitoes produced were of bomber types

[Swoop]

Does that mean its been sold to some billionaire over there?
The owner is Kermit Weeks.
A major collector in Florida and a genuinely nice chap.




The Mossie was used by the Pathfinder Force to lay down accurate incendiaries. These were used as the aiming point for the Lancasters, Stirlings and Halifaxes to get their bombs on target.
A truly amazing aircraft that could (& did!) accomplish so much, whilst being UN-armed.

[SPman]

'twas Keith Skilling I believe.
Dave did the first flight to Mangere, and Keith flew it back to Ardmore.



,

[SPman]

The owner is Kermit Weeks.
A major collector in Florida and a genuinely nice chap.




The Mossie was used by the Pathfinder Force to lay down accurate incendiaries. These were used as the aiming point for the Lancasters, Stirlings and Halifaxes to get their bombs on target.
A truly amazing aircraft that could (& did!) accomplish so much, whilst being UN-armed.
No

Jerry Yeagan will be very upset to find Kermit is the owner seeing he paid for it... Kermit has his own mark B35 to get back in the air in Florida...Jerry is based in Virginia.....

[Hitcher]

Things have got to a low ebb when Warbirds flies better kit than the RNZAF.

[sootie]

A totally incredible machine. As they say, what sounds better than a Merlin engine - 2 Merlins!
I wonder if anyone has written a book on all the special ops these planes were selected for because of their unique characteristics in WWII?

[pete376403]

No

Jerry Yeagan will be very upset to find Kermit is the owner seeing he paid for it... Kermit has his own mark B35 to get back in the air in Florida...Jerry is based in Virginia.....

Wonder if there are enough plans, patterns and jigs to start bulding replicas?

The N restorers must be getting a pretty impressive reputation around the world.

[Tigadee]

Mossies rule the sky! Beautiful machine!

Mosquitos were the F15Es of the day and the Typhoon the A-10s of WW II..

[240]

Gott in Himmel dis iz very disturbing to a non nazi like myself.I vill have nein option but to fire up my Messerschmidt me 109 and vonce again return to ze skies to fight for ze fatherland and rid ze skies of zis machine.it is about time for a re run of zis war as ze last time ze englander Schwein let the tyres down on our planes so we could not take off which is pure cheating !!
Signed Adolf Hitler......nein nein I mean Bruce Smith from ze Naki!!!!

[Kickaha]

Wonder if there are enough plans, patterns and jigs to start bulding replicas?

On TV they said he is working on a second Mosquito

Given enough money they can build anything, they built some replica flying ME262 jets in America

[SPman]

Glynn is working on his own ex Aussie (and RNZAF) T43. The fuselage and wings are done, and lots of small fittings.However, Glynn isn't getting any younger, and he ain't wealthy.....so....one can but hope for this wonderful chap.
Avspecs next Mossie is the T3 that used to be in the Science Museum in London, for Paul Allen in Seattle. It I'll probably retain it's original fuselage, but needs a new wing (the original had one cut off to fit in the museum)
The next to fly I'll probably be the B35 in Vancouver. This is all original, but will probably only fly a few times before being grounded and put into a museum....

[Usarka]

Any one know what's the story with the ardmore thing? Is it a general air show or just the public unveiling of the malaria injector?

[BMWST?]

Awesome.

One of the most fascinating things about WWII for me is the pace of technology moving. e.g. Most sides started with at least some biplanes in action (Swordfish!). The Brits, Germans and Yanks had jets by the end.

Here's a plane with piston engines, made largely of wood, and still used years after WWII ended.

Awesome.

the brits had jets very very early on the gloster meteor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor) flew in 1943,but Frank Whittle had a company in 1936 called power jets!The very first brit jet flew in 1941

[Swoop]

No

Jerry Yeagan will be very upset to find Kermit is the owner seeing he paid for it... Kermit has his own mark B35 to get back in the air in Florida...Jerry is based in Virginia.....
You are correct! Getting confusing with the amount of restorations underway...

Also, it is nice to see it going to Virginia. I personally believe that Kermit's collection is too exposed to hurricanes in Florida.

[pzkpfw]

the brits had jets very very early on the gloster meteor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor) flew in 1943,but Frank Whittle had a company in 1936 called power jets!The very first brit jet flew in 1941

Of course, but the various jets were only operational near the very end. (ME262 in mid '44, Meteor in '44, P80 in '45; no recorded jet vs jet combat).

I still see the contrast in what was flying (operationally) in 39 versus what was flying in 45 as very interesting. Even the B17/B29 "transition" is interesting.

[Swoop]

A bloody good day for an airshow!
Most remarkable when the Spitfire is overshadowed by another performer and it was very pleasing to see the Anson there as well.

The pilots were certainly not afraid of throwing it around at low level, either.

270781270780270782

[jasonu]

Wonder if there are enough plans, patterns and jigs to start bulding replicas? .

None of the above matters. If one of these guys chooses to pony up enough cash...

[BMWST?]

Of course, but the various jets were only operational near the very end. (ME262 in mid '44, Meteor in '44, P80 in '45; no recorded jet vs jet combat).

I still see the contrast in what was flying (operationally) in 39 versus what was flying in 45 as very interesting. Even the B17/B29 "transition" is interesting.


true,and some lucky breaks too....the spitfire was only going to be ordered by the Air Ministry if it was significantly faster than the Hurricane,which at first it wasnt,till the changed a propellor on the day....then it just sneaked home.The real success of the Spitfire can also be laid at the feet of Rolls Royce,they always ponied up with more Horsepower as required.Sorry for the OT

[george formby]

None of the above matters. If one of these guys chooses to pony up enough cash...

Just watched TV1's reportage and A merckan commented that they do not have the skills in the US to get one flying, could have been the owner. The moulds are heading offshore too.
Another under the radar Kiwi miracle.
I love this wee country on the edge of the world.:woohoo:

[Voltaire]

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/mosquito5.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/Mosquito4.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/mosquito2.jpg
worth the 30 minute walk from the car ....should have taken the bike...:facepalm:

[Ocean1]

Sounds like the Spitfire had a wee moment on landing at Wanganui.

Can't believe the old landing gear issue got another one.

[jasonu]

Just watched TV1's reportage and A merckan commented that they do not have the skills in the US to get one flying, could have been the owner. The moulds are heading offshore too.
Another under the radar Kiwi miracle.
I love this wee country on the edge of the world.:woohoo:

Yeah the 'wood' thing prolly has them stuffed...

[pete376403]

On TV they said he is working on a second Mosquito

Given enough money they can build anything, they built some replica flying ME262 jets in America

That (the 262 story) was interesting - after spending a fortune in time, materials and money to make the plans, patterns, jigs and tools they said they would NOT be building more replicas - but only in order to maintain the value of the ones built.

Also there was a bit of (understandable) fudging with the engines - they put modern engines in replica casings.

[flyingcrocodile46]

worth the 30 minute walk from the car ....should have taken the bike...:facepalm:

Ditto, cept my walk was an hour :sick: I don't do walking, but it was quicker to park 5km away and walk (we were overtaking the cars on foot). Mad traffic.

[nudemetalz]

Sounds like the Spitfire had a wee moment on landing at Wanganui.

Can't believe the old landing gear issue got another one.

Was a replica "Mk26" Mini Spitfire..


http://www.3news.co.nz/Emergency-landing-at-Whanganui-Airport/tabid/423/articleID/270958/Default.aspx

[george formby]

Sounds like the Spitfire had a wee moment on landing at Wanganui.

Can't believe the old landing gear issue got another one.

The first thing that went through my mind when I heard of the difficulties, the pilot was circling to use fuel, was the hope that he was a really old fella. The WWII pilots practised belly landings apparently. Getting the hydraulics shot away was common.
Good save I reckon.

[BMWST?]

Was a replica "Mk26" Mini Spitfire..


http://www.3news.co.nz/Emergency-landing-at-Whanganui-Airport/tabid/423/articleID/270958/Default.aspx

Good job we aren't me109 enthusiasts they are worse!

[misterO]

A few more snaps from the Air Show if anyone's interested:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmogden/sets/72157631648155454/

[Usarka]

A few more snaps from the Air Show if anyone's interested:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmogden/sets/72157631648155454/

Nice photos!

If you've got a spare $1500+ you can get a ride in that strikemaster....

http://www.jetfighter.co.nz/

[caseye]

Geez Volty shoulda told us ewe was going, I got there at 10am, drove in the industry side parked up at my mates hanger and walked over, OK around the end of the strip to the airside.
had a great day, got lots of pics, the Anson looked fantastic, but the star and heart stopper was definitely the Mossie.
Wasn't she just the absolute best thing in the air!
Android phones don't! take particularly good video, but the engine sound was fantastic, got em all, Mossie, with Vamp, with Spit, with Mustang and with Kittyhawk.
Four Merlin's and a rattly old Allison, what a beautiful noise. Now where have I heard that before???
Sorry I missed ya too Croc, got lunch while I was talking to you, early, beat the ques, mussel fritters were damned fine.

[Ocean1]

Was a replica "Mk26" Mini Spitfire.

Ah, right, the report was very brief. *looks* Good scheme eh? almost affordable. Did they get the wingtips wrong for any particular reason?


Good save I reckon.

Looks like it, nice to see so little damage.

[Oblivion]

I just love the sound of WWII fighter planes. A friend and I have found outlines of what looks to be Spitfires on Google maps in an abandoned Military outpost at *Location withheld* in Australia :innocent:

If we get some money, we might go there and do an outback ride on some dirtbikes to see whats really there. Spitfires are wortha pretty penny nowadays. Especailly the early ones with the Merlin engine.

[nudemetalz]

Ah, right, the report was very brief. *looks* Good scheme eh? almost affordable. Did they get the wingtips wrong for any particular reason?



Looks like it, nice to see so little damage.

That doesn't bug me as much as the tail wheel being out so far like a Piper Cub's. Shame it couldn't be in the fuselage more like the real machine.

He reckoned a month and back in the air. Awesome :)

Ayway back to the Mossie,...doesn't sound like us down in the lower North Island will get to see her :(

[Macontour]

Thanks for the vids and photos, somehow modern machines just don't do it for me the way the old ones do..

[Bass]

We rent hanger space just 2 spots over from Avspecs and so I have watched the Mosquito going together for about 5 years. Avspecs have been very welcoming of visitors the whole time and have never had a problem with us poking our noses in provided we asked, of course. The craftsmanship I have seen has been just superb and the results speak for themselves. Keith Skilling said it was the best restoration that he has ever seen and she flew just right from the very first flight - no adjustments necessary.

A truly magnificent achievement and it's strange to think that the use of modern adhesives means that she potentially has a longer life to look forward to than any other ever built.

[pete376403]

Dredge.... anyone just see "Seven Sharp"? Mosquito in a shed in Nelson plus a shit load of other planes. Faaaark!

[husaberg]

Dredge.... anyone just see "Seven Sharp"? Mosquito in a shed in Nelson plus a shit load of other planes. Faaaark!

The Mosquito could deliver a bigger payload of bombs as American B-17. to Berlin
4000lb vs 3500lb
It was also stealth as well as being faster and using less fuel.
The loss rate for the mozzy was also only .5% vs 5% for the ancasters.
... ....... Speed....... Payload.... Range...... Crew No. ...Built
Mosquito. 415mph... 4000lbs.... 1485 miles...... 2..... 7781
Lancaster. 200mph 22000lbs...2530 miles...... 7..... 7377
B-17 ....... 287mph 4000lbs.... 2000 miles...... 10... 12731

The B17 payload was less than one 5th of the Lancaster.

[pritch]

The Mosquito had eight hours 35 minutes flying time, parts are still brand new apart from the deterioration in the shed.

2 P40 Tomahawks
1 P51 Mustang
a Harvard
a Hudson

The Mosquito is going to Peter Jackson's Omaka museum, but I'd prefer some could fly again. Maybe when they find out what they could be worth? A Mosquito is worth ten million or thereabout apparently.

I recorded the programme and will watch it again, but an apple crumble is calling.

[TheDemonLord]

Here's to hoping they can be flying again.

There are few things more magnificent than the roar of a Merlin V12.

[pritch]

Here's to hoping they can be flying again.

There are few things more magnificent than the roar of a Merlin V12.

There's apparently a problem with the age of the glue in the mosquito airframe but it'll be a shame if it just sits at Omaka when most of the rest of the 'plane is basically brand new.

[Bonez]

There's apparently a problem with the age of the glue in the mosquito airframe but it'll be a shame if it just sits at Omaka when most of the rest of the 'plane is basically brand new.Wood also has a tendency to "age" pritch. Better to replace and rebuild. Metal aircraft not as much but still subject to fatigue..

[caseye]

The Mosquito could deliver a bigger payload of bombs as American B-17. to Berlin
4000lb vs 3500lb
It was also stealth as well as being faster and using less fuel.
The loss rate for the mozzy was also only .5% vs 5% for the ancasters.
... ....... Speed....... Payload.... Range...... Crew No. ...Built
Mosquito. 415mph... 4000lbs.... 1485 miles...... 2..... 7781
Lancaster. 200mph 22000lbs...2530 miles...... 7..... 7377 Checked, she could carry a full bomb load and cruise at 245 mph. Max speed 287 mph. Christopher Chant,LANCASTER.The Grand Slam, a 22,000 lb bomb the biggest ever single load carried by a WW11 bomber.Not bad aye!
B-17 ....... 287mph 4000lbs.... 2000 miles...... 10... 12731

The B17 payload was less than one 5th of the Lancaster.

Please see above, got a library full of plane books, not grandstanding just making sure the Lanc is cited correctly.

[Bonez]

Please see above, got a library full of plane books, not grandstanding just making sure the Lanc is cited correctly.http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Lancaster/Lancaster.html

I've got a load of books on WWII aircraft as well. Top speed varies on load, head wind, distance needed to carry and drop that load.

Of course that varies with every aircraft type.

Mossies were faster and flaw lower(especailly on there return home) than the larger bombers which flew higher and slower and were more susceptible to fight fighters, radar and ack ack batteries. Mossies were, being constructed of a lot of wood, the stealth aircraft of the time. Oh and some aircraft just performed better than others despite being the same make/model build in the same production run on the same day.

As Husaburk hasn't cited were he got his info from I'd take it with a grain of salt and spit it out.

[husaberg]

Please see above, got a library full of plane books, not grandstanding just making sure the Lanc is cited correctly.

i got it from here
interstingly wiki gives the same speed.
http://ww2podcast.com/news/the-de-havilland-mosquito-and-the-heavy-bombers/#:~:text=The%20B%2D17%20would%20carry,variation%2C %20so%20was%20more%20flexible.
maybe 200 was its best for fuel efficency.
I never even looked at the Lancasters speed. my intention was to point out the payload differences vs the Lanc vs B17 and Mozzy vs B17
The Mozzys performance changed markedly as the Merlin gained the 2 stage supercharger and higher octane fuel it went from one that had to run away on speed something few could match to one that could also out height the fighters.

The Lancaster were likely the same, as the engines and fuels got better so would its performance.

At the time wood was well known at the zenith of its performance while they were still getting aluminium designs and production right.

I liken it to the Lawson 2v Kawasaki vs the 4v higher tech hondas.
On paper they were obsolete and old tech but they were highly developed.
Same with the RC17 vs the VF750 in the Japanese championship.
The wood was not without its problems as wood doesn't stand up to gunfire as well as metals. But as few could find it or catch it is was effectively ameliorated.
One very interesting thing about the mozzys was the glue.

Resorcinol glue also known as resorcinol-formaldehyde, is an adhesive combination of resin and hardener that withstands long-term water immersion and has high resistance to ultraviolet light. The adhesive, introduced in 1943, has been popular in aircraft and boat construction
Although the greater ease of use and versatility of epoxy makes it much more popular, epoxy has poor UV resistance and in most structural applications has only modest heat resistance, making it less than ideal for many outdoor uses. Resorcinol remains a suitable adhesive for exterior and marine use. Unlike epoxy, it is not gap-filling, so requires a higher standard of workmanship and joint fitting.


Plenty of planes were wood but the mozzy was plywood and basically composite with its skin over a balsa core.
prior You couldn't successfully do the plywood on scale as the glues prior were not good enough.

[pritch]

At the time wood was well known at the zenith of its performance while they were still getting aluminium designs and production right.


They went to wood because De Havilland wanted a contract, and there was no way they would get one in aluminium as the material was strategically controlled and was all allocated to existing designs.

Timber was readily available as were skilled workers, so timber it was.

[husaberg]

They went to wood because De Havilland wanted a contract, and there was no way they would get one in aluminium as the material was strategically controlled and was all allocated to existing designs.

Timber was readily available as were skilled workers, so timber it was.

From what I understand De havlliland paid for all the development costs out of their own pockets.
They used a plane that had already designed from what they learned with the DH88 Comet(not that one) as a basis and of course, had very little experience as at making aluminium planes anyway. (the later designs including the other comet showed that.)
https://outerzone.co.uk/images/_thumbs/plans/10229.jpg

Using the many skilled furniture makers was of course quite helpful (massive understatement). But the wood as far as I know had to be brought in from overseas anyway.
So while it saved Aluminum. it was kind of mute. other than bureaucratically
The other advantage of the glued wood was it was slick in that it had no rivets. Wood could also be fashioned into curves easier for some shapes rather then aluminium.

There is sone nice detail here
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/mosquito-aerodynamics.50943/

Footnote the germans tried to do a plywood twin engine Mozzy but allegedly didn't have the glue tech to make it work.

[Bonez]

From what I understand De havlliland paid for all the development costs out of their own pockets.
They used a plane that had already designed as a basis and of course had very little experience as at making aluminium planes anyway
Using the many skilled furniture makers was of course quite helpful. w But the wood as far as I know had to be brought in from overseas anyway.
So while it saved Alumininm. it was kind of mute. other than bureaucratically
The other advantage of the glued wood was it was slick in that it had no rivets.That is how I remember it to and have seen pics and video of the original aircraft it was based on. Part of the MoD testing program. They had all sort of weird and wonderful military a/c testing specifications on the books. Making use of all those cabinet maker and related trades was a no brainer.

There was small article about it on Sky History channel yesterday in there WWII series.

[TheDemonLord]

The other advantage of the glued wood was it was slick in that it had no rivets.

Interestingly enough - I remember reading that the Reconnaissance variants of the Spitfire underwent a specialized process of polishing the airframe - which yielded something like an extra 10 knots of speed

[Swoop]

The Mustang is now located at Ohakea and being stripped down. The condition is quite remarkable indeed, and she will take to the skies again, in the future.

The Mossie... another time-capsule artefact that will probably reside at Omaka.
Mr Smith was ahead of his time by preserving these machines and parts!

[pritch]

Mr Smith was ahead of his time by preserving these machines and parts!

Yeah, it seems remarkable that he was in his twenties when he was acquiring his collection. Both because it's young to be thinking this far ahead, and because he had the wherewithal to do it.

[Kickaha]

But the wood as far as I know had to be brought in from overseas anyway.


America

I thought I'd read somewhere the Australian produced planes (or maybe Canadian) weighed more because they used a different type of wood to build them

[Bonez]

Yeah, it seems remarkable that he was in his twenties when he was acquiring his collection. Both because it's young to be thinking this far ahead, and because he had the wherewithal to do it.There are a lot of young folk who have more wisdom than old cunts.

[Dean]

There are a lot of young folk who have more wisdom than old cunts.

Look no further.

[Bonez]

Look no further.
Sorry nephew you have a high IQ but you certainly don't have a CLUE.:woohoo:

[husaberg]

America

I thought I'd read somewhere the Australian produced planes (or maybe Canadian) weighed more because they used a different type of wood to build them

Yes the wood was mainly the pacific north west but the inner was Balsa from south America or Maybe Asia
not sure when they started cultivating it in Asia by then
The timber used was spruce, birch, balsa, and plywood.

The wood consisted of three layers consisting of Ecuadorian balsa wood and two layers of three-ply birch wood, harvested in the UK, US and Canada.
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/the-wooden-wonder-of-the-raf/


To construct the fuselage, 3/8" sheets of Ecuadorean balsawood sandwiched between sheets of Canadian birch was formed inside large concrete molds.
https://www.thoughtco.com/havilland-mosquito-aircraft-2361527

After some setbacks due to equipment shortages and German bombings of the De Havilland buildings, the Mosquito prototype was transported to the town of Hatfield for a test flight on 25 November 1940. Its final construction was heat-formed plywood over a wooden frame, with sections glued and screwed for extra strength. It employed Ecuadorean balsawood sandwiched with Canadian birch, a particularly strong and lightweight grade of plywood. Metal was used in only a few parts, including the engine housings and some control surfaces. The wooden sections were covered in fabric and the prototype was painted bright yellow to discourage British anti-aircraft crews from firing upon the top-secret airplane.
https://www.damninteresting.com/the-timber-terror/
I read elsewhere There was trouble with some of the aussie made ones from delaminating or something that they put down to either bad glue or moisture swelling the balsa.

Another good read.
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2018/12/22/the-rafs-wooden-wonder/#:~:text=No%20aircraft%20was%20more%20versatile,%2 C%20interceptor%2C%20and%20reconnaissance%20plane.


A total of 7,781 Mosquitos were built—6,535 of them in Britain, 1,034 in Canada, and 212 in Australia.



The de Havilland Aircraft Company was noted for it's light aircraft, such as the famous DH82 Tiger Moth, and some mixed construction transport planes. In 1936 they had built the DH91 Albatross airliner and mailplane entirely in wood. In 1938 de Havilland proposed to the Air Ministry that they should build a bomber or reconnaissance aircraft that would be so fast it could be unarmed. The Air Ministry was generally hostile to the plan and turned them down. In October 1938 they told de Havilland that their contribution was best served by building wings for one of the existing bomber programmes.

De Havilland was not put off and continued with their project as a private venture. The proposal was based on reducing weight by removing the gun turrets and and having a crew of two instead of six. The aircraft would be smaller and burn less fuel. With twin Merlins an unarmed bomber could carry 1,000lb (454kg) of bombs for 1,500 miles (2400km) at a speed of almost 400mph (644km/h) which was almost twice that of current British bombers.


The de Havilland design and production staff made many contributions that were, apparently, outside their field of expertise. In October 1941, C.T. Wilkins, suggested that if the normal 500lb (227kg) British bombs were fitted with shorter or retractable fins then the Mosquito could carry four of them in the bomb bay. This was rejected with the claim that the bombs would then be unstable. Experiments soon showed that this was wrong and it was not long before all bombs were manufactured with shorter fins.


Shortly after he was politically and personally humiliated by the Mosquito bombing raid on Berlin in January 1943 Reichmarschall Herman Goering had this to say about the aircraft...

"In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy.

The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that?

There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war's over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked."
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-air-support/ww2-allied/mosquito.htm


The heavy-fighter version proved to be fast and deadly, flying bomber escorts and shooting down almost 500 of Germany’s V-1 rockets.


By the time the war was over, not only had the Mosquito proven itself to be capable, but in many ways extraordinary. These aircraft⁠— primarily built by carpenters using commonplace materials⁠— flew over 28,000 missions for Bomber Command, and only 193 of them were lost in the duration of the war.

https://www.damninteresting.com/the-timber-terror/

[george formby]

Noise, lovely noise.


https://youtu.be/Gl-aUbN3b5c

[pete376403]

THe glues that was developed for the Mossie - isn't that what was ultimately marketed to the public as Araldite?

[BMWST?]

you could make a strong argument that Rolls Royce won the war ,they always fronted up with more power when required.One of the main reasons the spitfire flew for the whole war,it always had a competitive power output

[pete376403]

you could make a strong argument that Rolls Royce won the war ,they always fronted up with more power when required.One of the main reasons the spitfire flew for the whole war,it always had a competitive power output

If that is the case then ironic that RR are now German owned

[husaberg]

THe glues that was developed for the Mossie - isn't that what was ultimately marketed to the public as Araldite?

not aradite as far as I know thats is an epoxy resin.
The mozys used a urea-formaldehyde glue called Resorcinol glue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resorcinol_glue)
It was one of the first synthetic glues.
from what I understand it smells rather pungent not at all like an expoxy.
The glue according to all I have seen is what they use for plywood still.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f5ppg2zR3s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXiOqrXMmI
aye.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauNQgkOJhU

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8I2mgzc1ww


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6uDpyScWg0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVqEs2t-17g

[jato]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fo7SmNuUU4
pretty impressive how the poms organised semi skilled civillians and turned out beautiful engines in such numbers. check out all the measures that were taken to maintain quality... and didn't it pay off for all of us (sorry Heinrech and co)

[spanner spinner]

you could make a strong argument that Rolls Royce won the war ,they always fronted up with more power when required.One of the main reasons the spitfire flew for the whole war,it always had a competitive power output


that and a little help from from high octane fuel

The secret fuel that made the Spitfire supreme

13 May 2009

In the year that sees the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of the Second World War, a previously untold story has emerged of how, through a "miracle" chemical breakthrough, Spitfire and Hurricane fighters gained the edge over German fighters to win the Battle of Britain.

An American scientist and author has claimed that the famed pair of war-winning aeroplanes gained superior altitude, manoeuvrability and rate of climb by a revolutionary high-octane fuel supplied to Britain by the USA just in time for the battle.

Books, documentaries, and movies have chronicled the brilliant contribution of UK designers and engineers behind the legendary fighter planes that won the Battle of Britain, preventing invasion of the British Isles.

The courage and sacrifice of RAF pilots who flew the aeroplanes is rightly celebrated and their bravery has become an inspirational chapter of the British national story.

What has not been known until now, however, is the story of the revolutionary aviation fuel supplied to the RAF by an American company, using a process invented by a Frenchman, without which Spitfires and Hurricanes might not have achieved crucial dominance over the Luftwaffe.

The Royal Society of Chemistry read the claims about Eugene Houdry, and his process at the Sun Oil Company, in a paper written originally for the journal Invention and Technology by American science writer Tim Palucka.

The introduction to the paper by Palucka says of Houdry: "His miraculous catalyst turned nearly worthless sludge into precious high-octane gasoline and helped the Allies to win World War II."

He continued: "That process would make a crucial difference in mid-1940 when the Royal Air Force started filling its Spitfires and Hurricanes with the 100-octane gasoline imported from the United States instead of the 87-octane gasoline it had formerly used."

The RSC is inviting experts and the public to challenge the new claim and if it remains intact then the society will send the report to aviation and military historians to mark the newly-discovered contribution of chemists to victory in one of the key battles.

Eugene Houdry, born in France, developed, after settling in the USA, one of the earliest catalysts to convert useless crude oil into high octane fuel. He revealed the "cracking" process at a Chicago chemicals conference in 1938

The 100-octane fuel that resulted from the Houdry Process increased the Spitfire's speed by 25 mph at sea level by 34 mph at 10,000 feet.

This extra speed gave the British fighters in the summer of 1940 the edge over the Luftwaffe above the English Channel and in the skies of London and south-east England.

With the balance tipped towards the British, the German invasion was abandoned and Hitler turned eastwards, allowing the UK armed forces time to regroup and to revive.

"Luftwaffe pilots couldn't believe they were facing the same planes they had fought successfully over France a few months before. The planes were the same but the fuel wasn't," said Palucka.

Tim Palucka says that in the 1943 book The Amazing Petroleum Industry, V A Kalichevsky of the Socony-Vacuum Oil Company explained what high-octane gasoline meant to Britain. Kalichevsky wrote:

"It is an established fact that a difference of only 13 points in octane number made possible the defeat of the Luftwaffe by the RAF in the fall of 1940. This difference, slight as its seems, is sufficient to give a plane the vital edge in altitude, rate of climb and manoeuvrability that spells the difference between defeat and victory.

Contact and Further Information
Press Office
Royal Society of Chemistry, Burlington House, Piccadilly, London W1J 0BA
Tel: +44 (0)1223 432294
Fax: +44 (0)1223 426594
Email: Press Office

[pritch]

Was talking to a WW2 hurricane pilot who said that the advantage of the Hurricane was that it could turn tighter than the opposition. "Pilots don't like a 'plane that can turn tighter than theirs."

If you do the thing with your hands, following hand turning tighter, you willl instantly see why.

[Bonez]

Was talking to a WW2 hurricane pilot who said that the advantage of the Hurricane was that it could turn tighter than the opposition. "Pilots don't like a 'plane that can turn tighter than theirs."

If you do the thing with your hands, following hand turning tighter, you willl instantly see why. You've been watching too much TOP GUN. Hurricanes were better at the ground attack support role.

They were slower than other fighters and had a smaller turning circle. Not unlike our old Skyhawks dog fighting with F16s, which they would piss all over at lower speed maneuvers.

[husaberg]

Was talking to a WW2 hurricane pilot who said that the advantage of the Hurricane was that it could turn tighter than the opposition. "Pilots don't like a 'plane that can turn tighter than theirs."

If you do the thing with your hands, following hand turning tighter, you willl instantly see why.

More planes were shot down in the BOB by hurricanes a wooden and fabric plane build.

In fact more German aircraft in the BOB were shot down by hawker hurricanes than all other British aircraft combined
They were more numerous and cheaper.
For the poms Speed wasn't an issue as the radar Put them above the enemy up in the sun rather than climbing to meet them.
Radar meant the crews didn't burn fuel or fatigue the pilots loitering in the sky waiting for attacks.
A hurricane however as the Merlin had carbs was more prone to stall than the Fuel injected ME.

The hurricanes also had better armour.
Also at the start twice as many guns 8 vs 4 then the spitfire.

[pete376403]

Was talking to a WW2 hurricane pilot who said that the advantage of the Hurricane was that it could turn tighter than the opposition. "Pilots don't like a 'plane that can turn tighter than theirs."

If you do the thing with your hands, following hand turning tighter, you willl instantly see why.

Dont be silly, fancy asking a pilot about aircraft flight characteristics. As if he would know. You need to ask an ex airforce stores person , they know everything, especially about planes that existed before they were born. And when they have finished mocking your pilots statement, they will say exactly what he said - turn tighter ... smaller turning circle

[pritch]

More planes were shot down in the BOB by hurricanes

Funny thing, I don't remember reading anything about Hurricanes in the ground attack role during the Battle of Britain. There's probably a reason for that though. :whistle:

[husaberg]

Funny thing, I don't remember reading anything about Hurricanes in the ground attack role during the Battle of Britain. There's probably a reason for that though. :whistle:

Neither do I?
Its odd in that the Hurricane shot down more German aircraft in the BOB than all other British aircraft combined, so to suggest it wasn't a fighter would bea special kind of stupid in the extreme.
Is there anyone that stupid on KB?

[FJRider]

Funny thing, I don't remember reading anything about Hurricanes in the ground attack role during the Battle of Britain. There's probably a reason for that though. :whistle:

The "Battle of Britain" was fought OVER England remember. In defense as opposed to attack. England was (in most places) FRIENDLY territory. Ground attacks on friendly territory was frowned on in those days.

Not so much in later years .. :pinch:

[FJRider]

Neither do I?

Why would the British need ground attack aircraft with bombs over London to fight an air defense battle in the sky above England ... ??

England had not been invaded. What do you think the could have bombed ... ??


Is there anyone that stupid on KB?

From what you posted above ... Apparently ... :laugh:

[pritch]

Just coincidentally there was a Battle of Britain commemorative church service in town today. My only participation was to listen to the fly past go over my house.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If that is the case then ironic that RR are now German owned

Cars yes, Marine and Aerospace I don't think so. They are separate companies. I have a client who is a marine engineer who works (worked...) all over the world. Interesting bloke with great photos on his phone - if you're into really fucking big engines and stuff.

[TheDemonLord]

Neither do I?
Its odd in that the Hurricane shot down more German aircraft in the BOB than all other British aircraft combined, so to suggest it wasn't a fighter would bea special kind of stupid in the extreme.
Is there anyone that stupid on KB?

From memory though, most of those were Bombers.

The Spitfire was the Air-superiority fighter, whereas the Hurricane was a more stable Gun platform - allowing it to deal enough damage to take out multi-engined Bombers.

Interestingly enough, it's this same stability that meant it's transition into the Ground-Attack role was also effective.

[george formby]

From memory though, most of those were Bombers.



Bugger me, how old are you?

:shit:

[FJRider]

From memory though, most of those were Bombers.

The Spitfire was the Air-superiority fighter, whereas the Hurricane was a more stable Gun platform - allowing it to deal enough damage to take out multi-engined Bombers.

Interestingly enough, it's this same stability that meant it's transition into the Ground-Attack role was also effective.

The purpose of the initial raids on England was to destroy the air defense network prior to the planned German invasion (Operation Sea Lion). Primarily the fighter airfields and radar were targeted. That was the Battle of Britain. Bombers then low level fighters with more bombs on individual targets hit the Airfields ... and then shooting up aircraft, fuel tanks and hangers. They almost succeeded in wiping out the entire Fighter force.

But Hitler ordered a change to the bombing of the cities instead ... as reprisal for the nightly air raids on Germany. German fighters escorted them ... but they were too short in numbers to make a difference in the outcome.

That was the break Britain needed. Time to replace their depleted fighter force numbers.

Not much time ... but enough.

[FJRider]

... the Hurricane shot down more German aircraft in the BOB than all other British aircraft combined.

The Hurricane accounted for 60% of the German losses in the Battle of Britain. But there were more Hurricanes flying than Spitfires ... so probably understandable that Hurricanes shot down more aircraft.

[MaxPenguin]

I was always told that the Hurricane was s very good ground attack plane. Never looked further into it though.

[TheDemonLord]

Bugger me, how old are you?

:shit:

Memory from Reading, but well played- I chortled

[husaberg]

Araldite is a brand name, not an adhesive.
The mossie started off using casein adhesive (milk solids based) but this is shit in moist environments. Urea formaldehyde ( "Aerolite " ) became the common pruduction glue for the mossie (wise move).
Resorcinal is different again.

Epoxy for the win! (but not that 5-min crap.) Did you know that to get an epoxy to set in 5 mins you sacrifice 75% of its strength?


from what I can find
Resorcinal is the glue for the plywood its still used as was the key as prior there was no water proof plywood.



There are variations as to the exact content of different brands. erodux 500 calls itself Resorcinol-Phenol-Formaldehyde, whereas Cascophen refers to its glue as Resorcinol-Formaldehyde
In practical terms resorcinol contains a significant amount of naturally occuring phenols and is similar in action and waterproof qualities to the synthetic phenol formaldehyde glues. Here is my page on Phenol formaldehyde glue.


HomeUrea Formaldehyde glueStitch & Glue BoatbuildingPolyurethanePlansBooks about Boats
Resorcinol Glue
For most amateur boatbuilders Resorcinol is an echo from the past. They might have heard it mentioned in an old book, or some crusty woodworker might have raved about it. Few have ever seen it on sale and fewer have used it. Here is some information.

If I were to say I have a glue that can glue wood. Is immensely strong. Can withstand immersion in salt and fresh water. Does not soften in high heat and become brittle in low temperatures. Has proven its long term effectiveness. Is chemically resistant to acids solvents and oils. Can glue Oak and oily woods. It is harder, slightly stronger in sheer joints, and more permanent than epoxy. You would be overjoyed and would ask what this wonder glue is called.

I would answer it's Resorcinol Glue!!

Many of the boats restored by Howard Percival Johnson were built using resorcinol. Check him out at Old Time World Some eye candy for old motorboat lovers.

What is Resorcinol
Resorcinol is a simple molecule of benzene with 2 Hydroxy bits. It's produced either by using a natural resin such as a distillate of brazilwood and combining it with potassium hydroxide, or by several synthetic methods. This resorcinol is then further treated to produce the wonder adhesives.
THIS IS NOT A CHEMISTRY ARTICLE. If you are interested in the chemistry, check out the Wikipedia Resorcinol Chemistry Article. This is the basis for Resorcinol glue

There are variations as to the exact content of different brands. Aerodux 500 calls itself Resorcinol-Phenol-Formaldehyde, whereas Cascophen refers to its glue as Resorcinol-Formaldehyde. Since the claims from all manufacturers are similar in major traits I will not differentiate and when I say resorcinol or resorcinol formaldehyde I am not saying anything about a specific brand. Differences occur in the setting times, and ideal moisture content of the substrates, for example. All brands claim to be superior waterproof, structural adhesives. All brands have similar warnings and procedures.

In practical terms resorcinol contains a significant amount of naturally occuring phenols and is similar in action and waterproof qualities to the synthetic phenol formaldehyde glues. Here is my page on Phenol formaldehyde glue.

Grasp Resorcinol Adhesive Data Sheet is typical. Available in Australia, it's worth having a look. Others data sheets can be found fromt he links on the left.

What are the Advantages of Resorcinol Glue?
It is Waterproof with a capital W. Passes the boil test with flying colours, AND has been keeping boats together for a great many years. It is one of the few adhesives around that stay strong when wet for extended periods. Outside conditions are not a deterrant for using this glue.
Chemically stable after it has set. It resists Acids, salt water, solvents, oils and most other things. It is sensitive to alkalis.
It is strong. Currently one of its main use is to put together plywood, laminated support beams and other wooden structural elements. Wooden airplanes frameworks have long been glued with resorcinol formulations.
Because it has been around for a long time it has been tested under countless different conditions, and it has passed the long term reliability test.
Resorcinol can withstand a wide range of useful temperatures when cured. It is safe for outside temperature anywhere on this planet. Unlike epoxy it does not soften when it gets warm. It shows no creep and does not get brittle in sub zero conditions
After curing it can be used in a wide range of humidity condition including varying conditions.
Resorcinol can be used as an adhesive for oak and oily woods. Epoxy is noted as a poor oak glue.
Pot life after mixing can be several hours. This is dependant on ambient temperature.
Some formulations can glue wood with quite high moisture content. Best results are at about 12% but satisfactory results have been achieved in the 6-25% range with specialized brands. See technical sheets for more information.
Metal surfaces can be bonded with appropriate preparation and primers.

What are the Disadvantages of using Resorcinol Glues?
It has very poor gap filling capacity. Your joints must be good.
Joints and laminations must be tightly clamped or pressed, often for several hours at room temperature, to be successful. Resorcinol does not like a thick glue joint.


https://www.christinedemerchant.com/adhesive-glue-resorcinol.html

So great for the ply but shit for the joining of the two halves.

Casein was used for early mozzy, I am well familiar with it as I grew up in the dairy industry. yes it don't like getting wet. its still used on beer bottle labels as well as some plastics.
Aeorlite according to one page with no supporting documents was used on mozzys following on from the Casein
there was also something like 300 screws in the wings alone as well.
The BBC did a program on Resorcinal and the mozzy I will see if I can find it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/33/a7336433.shtml
closest I can find.


What I cant see is why they needed to coat the plane in doped fabric afterwards, unless it was to get it flush or maybe for weather proofing?

looking at the curing an molding tech the Mozzys plannels were molded around concretty and hardwood forms

The Duramold and Haskelite process was first developed in 1937, followed by Gene Vidal's Weldwood and later the Aeromold process produced by the Timm Aircraft Company. In the United Kingdom, the De Havilland Aircraft Company (founded by Geoffrey de Havilland, a cousin of Olivia de Havilland, the actress who dated Howard Hughes in 1938) used similar composite construction for aircraft including the DH.88 Comet, DH.91 Albatross, the Mosquito, and Vampire. The aeromold process differs in that it is baked at a low 100 °F at cutting and forming, and 180 °F for fusing together sections after the resins are added.

[pritch]

there was also something like 300 screws in the wings alone as well.


Which reminds me... Several mentions of cabinet making type woodworkers in the thread but possibly even more relevant would have been boat builders.

[eldog]

I keep trying to remember the simulator at Wigram in the visitors upstairs mezzanine floor is that a mossie?:brick:

[husaberg]

Which reminds me... Several mentions of cabinet making type woodworkers in the thread but possibly even more relevant would have been boat builders.

Pleasure craft builders but t wouldn't most have been tried up with boat ie life rafts etc?
Those same plywood techs and glues were also used on the large Gliders later and I guess the landing crafts

[eldog]

Has anyone here had a flight in a mossie?

compared to a hurricane or spitfire or similar.

wondered what the feeling was like and if you ever forgot the thrill.:wings:

[FJRider]

2016

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