Teachers and the MinEd

[joan of arc]

While the MinEd need to get their act together regarding getting teacher pay sorted, the bleating of teachers that they are so hard done by doesn't always ring true.

And when we (the tax payers) consider how much money education costs us, it stuns me that there is not a whole load more accountability asked of the teaching profession

From the Min of Ed website

Between March 2000 and 2012, overall average teacher pay (salary plus allowances) in state and state integrated schools increased as follows.
•Secondary teachers’ average pay increased 54.8%, from $47,764 to $73,955.
•Primary teachers’ average pay increased 64.5% from $42,358 to $69,660.
•Area school teachers’ average pay increased 57.8% from $45,936 to $72,470.
•Overall, teachers’ average pay increased 60.6% from $44,542 to $71,526.

Far as I can tell there are a little under 50,000 teachers in NZ which means that it cost us about $3,500,000,000 ($3.5 billion for those that don't like to count zeros) a year in pay.

Add to that maintenance of building and a whole heap of teaching resources, I can see why school closures and amalgamations would be on the agenda for saving some cash in these hard times

[PrincessBandit]

Have you been a teacher? It's bloody hard work. Despite the pay figures teachers leave the profession in droves, often through burn out within the first 5 years.

[Katman]

Have you been a teacher? It's bloody hard work.

So is being a mechanic.






Just saying like. :whistle:

[nonie]

What this post fails to take into account is that during the twelve years referred to a huge number of younger teachers on the lower pay scale left the profession.The teachers that remained took up to 8 years to work their way to the top of the pay scale . Obviously, then, with the large number of experienced teachers in front of classes, who take on extra responsibilities to gain meagre management allowances, the average pay has increased.

i don't know what your problem is. Perhaps you forget that teachers pay taxes and pay for their kids to be educated just like everyone else!

Your post lacks any context.

[Akzle]

you seems to be looking at the symptom, nae the problaem. state-funded teachers exist only to perpetuate the doctrine of the state.

don't whinge to KB.
DO some shit about it (yeah right)

[Akzle]

So is being a mechanic.



grease-monkeys get no sympathy.
add "engineer" or "technician" to your job description. then we'll care slightly more (but still fuckall. plebian)

[Katman]

grease-monkeys get no sympathy.


Thanks for proving my point.

:weep:

[Jantar]

That data shows that teachers' pay has kept up with inflation, but generally the top teachers are still underpaid. Someone with a degree at the top of the secondary teachers' scale is below what I would pay someone in my job as a starting salary without a degree.

There are just over 760,000 pupils in New Zealand which gives a pupil:teacher ratio of 15:1, and this is where the big issue is. Reduce the number of teachers and pay them better for achieving good results.

Back in the day when I attended school (yes I had to walk as there were no busses, we had bare feet, and it was uphill both ways) the average class size was 40:1 at primary school and 30:1 at secondary school. I would also claim that we received a better education to higher standards than many of today's pupils. The secret to managing large class sizes was that pupils were streamed so that all the pupils in a class were learning at around the same rate. there were no slower pupils holding back the brighter ones as all the below average students were in the same stream as were all the brighter students in the same stream.

This even happened at primary school eg. The brighter std 3 pupils were in the same class room as the main std 4 pupils and the slower std 4 pupils were in the same room as the main group of std 3 pupils.

Perhaps we need to go back to streaming and to external exams to check that standards are being maintained. Then we can have fewer teachers of higher quality being paid more and achieving better results.

[Oakie]

What this post fails to take into account is that during the twelve years referred to a huge number of younger teachers on the lower pay scale left the profession.

To be replaced by more young teachers on that lower pay scale surely ... thus maintaining the status quo.

[Akzle]

...Reduce the number of teachers and pay them better for achieving good results.

The secret to managing large class sizes was that pupils were streamed


"for achieving good results" - this is the thing i find hard to qualify.
if a teacher in south acuakland has a pass rate of 54%, tey could have done really well, since half the kids are hungry, the other half are dropkicks, and 80% of the total had a doobie before class...
if, say, some private school had a pass rate of 54%, you can bet the parents would piss and moan about it.... (even if 80% of the kids had a doobie before class, but it's not the kids fault, because the parents are rich, see...)

the secret to managing large class sizes is give the teachers a meter rule and let the kids know they're not above being hit with it...

[SMOKEU]

With the way kids/teens behave these days I don't blame teachers for wanting more money. They suffer almost endless abuse from unruly students and there is very little, if anything, that they can do about it. The government is so fucking PC that they allow these hooligans to run rampant and spoil the right for every other student to get a good education.

[nonie]

well actually I believe that there are fewer young people taking up teaching. Many of the 'new" teachers coming in bring teaching equivalent experience and so are promoted up the pay scale from the start.
regardless.. go the PPTA and the collective that fight hard for the teachers and their conditions..the power of the union.

[Jantar]

"for achieving good results" - this is the thing i find hard to qualify.
if a teacher in south acuakland has a pass rate of 54%, tey could have done really well, since half the kids are hungry, the other half are dropkicks, and 80% of the total had a doobie before class...
if, say, some private school had a pass rate of 54%, you can bet the parents would piss and moan about it.... (even if 80% of the kids had a doobie before class, but it's not the kids fault, because the parents are rich, see...)....

Pass rates are not the only way to achieve good results. One measure of success would be to assess the pupils at the end of each year against the national standards. If only 54% of the pupils met the standards at the end of a particular year and 58% achieve at the end of the next year then the teacher who brought them up from 54% to 58% has performed better than average and deserves a pay rise in addition to any negotiated by his/her union.

If instead of increasing from 54% the average drops to 50% then that teacher hasn't achieved so well and could possibly experience less of a pay rise, or even a cut. By measuring success in this way there is more opportunity for those teachers in South Auckland to achieve better outcomes than teachers at private schools.

[Berries]

We will always need petrol pump attendants and people to flip burgers. I wouldn't worry about it.

[rapid van cleef]

Here we go again.......

[Akzle]

Pass rates are not the only way to achieve good results...

sounds like making another government type job.... and we all know how well they do...

((i see no practical application for you theory. while i agree that if people aren't worth sh*t they shouldn't be paid sh*t. (whoever said "hunger has been man's biggest motivator since the dawn of time"...) and i am all for smart people to enthuse young people about learning stuff, i don't like the way state schooling is done. and i don't think state policy will improve it, and i don't think penalising teachers by some punitive system in some crackhead attempt to balance the f*ing budget will be effective, either in improving the schooling of children, or the quality of the teachers, or the actual f*ing budget.))

education has nothing to do with schooling.

[bogan]

Teacher have no bottom line in an accounting ledger, how else do you think they go about getting paid what they are worth?

Engineers can say, this is the work I did, and this is how much income it generated. Give me 1/3 of that.

Teachers on the other hand, would likely all be millionaires if they were paid a 1/3rd of the income their work was responsible. Problem is there is too many degrees of separation between them and the bottom line.

Cost cutting the standard of education in the country is like selling the house to pay for the lawns to be mowed. This sort of shit is why elected officials are only as smart as the dumb fucks doing the electing.

[SVboy]

With the way kids/teens behave these days I don't blame teachers for wanting more money. They suffer almost endless abuse from unruly students and there is very little, if anything, that they can do about it. The government is so fucking PC that they allow these hooligans to run rampant and spoil the right for every other student to get a good education.

This is possibly been the best most accurate post you have ever made, well done, carry on.

[Akzle]

...elected officials are only as smart as the dumb fucks doing the electing.

have i mentioned that i don't/never have/never will (until dotcom runs for PM) vote?

there IS a way to work out an "educator's" worth, but not all educators are teachers, and not all teachers are worth sh*t.

ne'er mind sheep.
US election's coming up. hoo-rah! and there was a cat stuck up a tree... much better news ehh...

[SVboy]

While the MinEd need to get their act together regarding getting teacher pay sorted, the bleating of teachers that they are so hard done by doesn't always ring true.

And when we (the tax payers) consider how much money education costs us, it stuns me that there is not a whole load more accountability asked of the teaching profession

From the Min of Ed website

Between March 2000 and 2012, overall average teacher pay (salary plus allowances) in state and state integrated schools increased as follows.
•Secondary teachers’ average pay increased 54.8%, from $47,764 to $73,955.
•Primary teachers’ average pay increased 64.5% from $42,358 to $69,660.
•Area school teachers’ average pay increased 57.8% from $45,936 to $72,470.
•Overall, teachers’ average pay increased 60.6% from $44,542 to $71,526.

Far as I can tell there are a little under 50,000 teachers in NZ which means that it cost us about $3,500,000,000 ($3.5 billion for those that don't like to count zeros) a year in pay.

Add to that maintenance of building and a whole heap of teaching resources, I can see why school closures and amalgamations would be on the agenda for saving some cash in these hard times

Yes, in a time where NZ has to strive to upskill its future generations like never before in order help the country move forward, lets blame the whining teachers and gut the infrastructure. That will work. Sounds like you have detailed first hand experience in the education sector.....not!

[Oblivion]

Being a teacher.

10% money
10% Kids
80% passion.

No-one realizes how much effort that most of these people put in behind the scenes just to keep up with the workload. 3 nights a week marking coursework, learning each students behavior patterns and quirks ( <- Most teachers are brilliant at this ) And now they are trying to get a pay rise for the extra effort that they put in. And they're having to fight so hard just to get a little recognition.

We were having a debate with the teacher in my stats class last year about the whole pay rise thing. He isn't involved with the lobbying, but, he said that if you're in teaching for the money, then you're in the wrong profession. Teaching is about the passion of helping kids succeed even when they doubt their own and ability. And pride watching back 20 years from now looking at someone you used to teach and thinking I'm glad that I helped that kid get to where he is today. Or even, back then, he doubted himself. But look where he is now.

Its a well known fact that teachers are massively underpaid for the work they do. Going through the NCEA bullshit, I had teachers that were willing to come in on the weekends for around 9 hours each day, to make sure as many of us passed as possible. They didn't get paid for that. Its just solid dedication.

Give the people a raise. Alot of teachers deserve it.

[Akzle]

Yes, in a time where NZ has to strive to upskill its future generations like never before in order help the country move forward, lets blame the whining teachers and gut SELL the infrastructure. That will work.

fixed that for ya. it's a winning strategy.

[bogan]

Teaching is about the passion of helping kids succeed even when they doubt their own and ability. And pride watching back 20 years from now looking at someone you used to teach and thinking I'm glad that I helped that kid get to where he is today. Or even, back then, he doubted himself. But look where he is now.

In my 7th form we had a teacher who saved our collective asses from failing chemistry. He came in about 2/3rd the way through the year after we had been stuck with relievers. He ended up teaching us the whole years curriculum in that time, we ended up taking him out for a thank-you dinner at the end of it. One of my classmates even became a chem teacher; and he's still interested in how we're doing.

Getting paid properly for that sort of effort is not too much to ask I think.

[SVboy]

fixed that for ya. it's a winning strategy.

Judging by the quality of reasoning and skilled punctuation and spelling in your posts I gather your educational record is questionable. Best not to blame the teachers for your failings as a student- you cant polish a turd.

[mashman]

bwaaaa ha ha ha haaaa. Wasn't the Rt Honourable Mr Banks complaining relatively recently ago that there were too many teachers coming out of Uni?

I'd hate to be a teacher. Half of the kids are doing well, the other half not so... is it the Teacher's fault, the kid's fault, the way the kids are being taught, exam "fright", the school's fault, the parent's fault, the curriculum's fault or my fault. How do you pay the teacher on performance when there is no way to measure where the "fault" lies? As for burnout, praps it's time for 2 or 3, maybe 4 :shit: teachers to be in a classroom. Doh, forgot... it costs too much money :killingme. They're worth every cent, well most of them, probably most of them, hopefully most of them :shifty:

[oldrider]

[QUOTE=nonie;1130416833]What this post fails to take into account is that during the twelve years referred to a huge number of younger teachers on the lower pay scale left the profession.The teachers that remained took up to 8 years to work their way to the top of the pay scale . Obviously, then, with the large number of experienced teachers in front of classes, who take on extra responsibilities to gain meagre management allowances, the average pay has increased.
QUOTE]

It's not the time invested that counts, it's the quality of the outcome!

If they are all poor teachers that simply cling in there on the time scale, the result will be similar to what we have today, young teachers leaving the profession!

Teachers need to be on performance pay scales rather than time in the job "regardless of performance"!

Most kids are not stupid, why should they be suppressed by stupid teachers who have no accountability at all for their stupidity and /or incompetence!

The current system supports the lowest common denominator and that is the standard that the pupils suffer from ultimately. Mediocrety! :yawn:

[Banditbandit]

Pass rates are not the only way to achieve good results. One measure of success would be to assess the pupils at the end of each year against the national standards.

Teachers currently assess against National Standards every month of so ...

[Banditbandit]

•Secondary teachers’ average pay increased 54.8%, from $47,764 to $73,955. - That's an average of 4.5% per year ... (I can't do the compound interest calculations ... so it will be actually less than that ..

•Primary teachers’ average pay increased 64.5% from $42,358 to $69,660. That's an increase of $2,277 per year or $43 a week or $1.09 per hour.

•Area school teachers’ average pay increased 57.8% from $45,936 to $72,470. An increase of $2,211 per year, $42.52 per week or $1.06 per hour ...

•Overall, teachers’ average pay increased 60.6% from $44,542 to $71,526. $2,248.67 per year - $43.24 per week or $1.08 per hour ... and that figure is likely to include principals and other senior staff ...


The increases look huge - until you realise they are given over 12 year period ... I wonder what sort of increases our politicians, who are whinging about this, recieved over the same period ...? Might just go and look ..

[Oscar]

My wife is a teacher with 25 years experience and she's leaving for a lower paid job. She's had enough of the abuse and the PC nonsense, so she's getting out.

[SVboy]

[QUOTE=nonie;1130416833]What this post fails to take into account is that during the twelve years referred to a huge number of younger teachers on the lower pay scale left the profession.The teachers that remained took up to 8 years to work their way to the top of the pay scale . Obviously, then, with the large number of experienced teachers in front of classes, who take on extra responsibilities to gain meagre management allowances, the average pay has increased.
QUOTE]

It's not the time invested that counts, it's the quality of the outcome!

If they are all poor teachers that simply cling in there on the time scale, the result will be similar to what we have today, young teachers leaving the profession! So what are you saying? That all teachers are poor? Grow a brain!

Teachers need to be on performance pay scales rather than time in the job "regardless of performance"! Based on what criteria?

Most kids are not stupid, why should they be suppressed by stupid teachers who have no accountability at all for their stupidity and /or incompetence! How would you know? Are you currently a teacher? Have you EVER been a primary or secondary teacher?

The current system supports the lowest common denominator and that is the standard that the pupils suffer from ultimately. Mediocrety! :yawn:

A sad rightist attack on teachers while trying to promote an unworkable and outdated political votecatcher. No prizes for guessing which way you vote.

[Jantar]

..... She's had enough of the abuse and the PC nonsense, so she's getting out.

Damn. The fact that she recognises some of the causes of the poor state of our education system shows that she is the type of teacher we need to retain and promote.

[Banditbandit]

OK ... here we go .. Our polticians got a $5,000 pay increase in late 2011, backdated to July 1.

"Backbenchers will now be paid a base salary of $141,800, up from $134,800. The next prime minister's salary will rise from $400,500 to $411,510. The increases are backdated to July 1 this year"

Fuck me ... a backbencher is paid TWICE what a top paid teacher is ... is a doppy backbench politician really worth that much .. are they producing enough to justify that pay??? And the increase for the PM was $11,510... that's just the extra he gets ... What are they actually producing anyway ???


In 2000 the backbenchers were paid $85,000 and a minister $149,000 (no idea what a prime minsietr was paid ... can't find that anywwhere ..)

That's a 66.8% increase for our backbenchers in the same period the average teacher salary went up by 54.8% .. I know which one deserves the money .. and it's nto the ones siting in Wellington behaving like children and blowing hot air ..

[Swoop]

Level 1 & 2 courses are being taken off of private training providers and other teaching institutions.
They are going to be pushed back onto schools, so wait for the complaints then.

Quite clever though. It means no student loans or having to get them repaid, all for a modicum of funding increase for the schools.

[Banditbandit]

Level 1 & 2 courses are being taken off of private training providers and other teaching institutions.
They are going to be pushed back onto schools, so wait for the complaints then.

Quite clever though. It means no student loans or having to get them repaid, all for a modicum of funding increase for the schools.

Yesa .. and about time too ...

Level 1 and 2 courses the Govt is talking about are roughly the equiveent of 5th and 6th form courses (for the oldies) Year 11 and 12 for the young ones ...

I have no idea why such courses were placed in tertiary education - except some people thought that tertiary education should clean up the messes of the high schools ... I, for one, am sick of cleaning up the mess that high school teachers have made ...

[nonie]

Performance pay issue. Police don't get it, politicians don't get it, doctors at govt. owned hospitals don't, nurses don't. Why...because in the case of govt. workers (no, not the politicians), they are dealing with an unknown variable. Secondary teachers rarely see the same pupils for more than one year in a row. Can't compare apples with cabbages can you now ! As a teacher of 13 years I have seen it all really. Kids that come to school stoned out of their heads, kids that come to school from homes with no indoor bathroom facilities, hungry kids, kids from abusive or neglectful parents, kids that get no support from home with school work, kids whose parents simply don't give a rats ass about how their kids behave and so it goes on. I've lost count of the number of times I have heard kids tell teachers to f@#k off, had things thrown at them, pushed/shoved them and the simply lazy kid who will just not do anything they are asked to do. The teachers who stick it out do it because they actually give a damn about the next generation.. they do their best to help these ungrateful, neglected, socially deviant and/or neglected kids so that they can see a future for themselves.
I am SO sick of teacher bashing by those who have never spent a day in front of a class.

[Akzle]

Judging by the quality of reasoning and skilled punctuation and spelling in your posts I gather your educational record is questionable. Best not to blame the teachers for your failings as a student- you cant polish a turd.

what, second, third time you've tried cracking that one...:rolleyes: still not funny.

(i wunnt blaming anyone for anything, either. jackass.)

[SVboy]

what, second, third time you've tried cracking that one...:rolleyes: still not funny.

(i wunnt blaming anyone for anything, either. jackass.)

Nup-first time fucktard. Now got anything relevant to say about secondary education and teachers or is the discussion already over your head?:tugger:

[Akzle]

Nup-first time fucktard. Now got anything relevant to say about secondary education and teachers or is the discussion already over your head?:tugger:

mum didn't hug you enough eh? or maybe dad hugged you too much...
i've been here since page one. wakey wakey.

[PrincessBandit]

... wakey wakey.

"Wakey wakey hand off snakey", as I've heard a DP say before...(although he wasn't a DP then)

[SVboy]

mum didn't hug you enough eh? or maybe dad hugged you too much...
i've been here since page one. wakey wakey.

Another swing and a miss from the inbred. Sure ,you have contributed in your own "certain" style. It just that you have nothing to say. Remember, the topic is teachers, performance pay, and infrastructure destruction. Big words I know, but do your best. Perhaps your mummy can help you with what they mean. Here, I will even get off her first if that makes it easier for you.....

[bogan]

Nup-first time fucktard. Now got anything relevant to say about secondary education and teachers or is the discussion already over your head?:tugger:

I'm sure you're not the first to bring it up though, and I suspect you won't be the last. You'd almost think there might be something to it :whistle:

[oldrider]

Performance pay issue. Police don't get it, politicians don't get it, doctors at govt. owned hospitals don't, nurses don't. Why...because in the case of govt. workers (no, not the politicians), they are dealing with an unknown variable. Secondary teachers rarely see the same pupils for more than one year in a row. Can't compare apples with cabbages can you now ! As a teacher of 13 years I have seen it all really. Kids that come to school stoned out of their heads, kids that come to school from homes with no indoor bathroom facilities, hungry kids, kids from abusive or neglectful parents, kids that get no support from home with school work, kids whose parents simply don't give a rats ass about how their kids behave and so it goes on. I've lost count of the number of times I have heard kids tell teachers to f@#k off, had things thrown at them, pushed/shoved them and the simply lazy kid who will just not do anything they are asked to do. The teachers who stick it out do it because they actually give a damn about the next generation.. they do their best to help these ungrateful, neglected, socially deviant and/or neglected kids so that they can see a future for themselves.
I am SO sick of teacher bashing by those who have never spent a day in front of a class.

Performance pay is in "support of good teachers" not teacher bashing! High performance teachers should be rewarded accordingly, so should poor performance!

The current system you describe above is held together by the lack of accountability within all of those "reward by length of time in the service" organisations!

Politicians are judged at least every three years and are also judged by the performance (or lack of it) of their peers as well, unfortunately they are protected by MMP!

[SVboy]

Performance pay is in "support of good teachers" not teacher bashing! High performance teachers should be rewarded accordingly, so should poor performance!

The current system you describe above is held together by the lack of accountability within all of those "reward by length of time in the service" organisations!

Politicians are judged at least every three years and are also judged by the performance (or lack of it) of their peers as well, unfortunately they are protected by MMP!

What is a high performance teacher please?

[Oakie]

OK ... here we go .. Our polticians got a $5,000 pay increase in late 2011, backdated to July 1.

"Backbenchers will now be paid a base salary of $141,800, up from $134,800. The next prime minister's salary will rise from $400,500 to $411,510. The increases are backdated to July 1 this year"

Fuck me ... a backbencher is paid TWICE what a top paid teacher is ... is a doppy backbench politician really worth that much .. are they producing enough to justify that pay??? And the increase for the PM was $11,510... that's just the extra he gets ... What are they actually producing anyway ???


In 2000 the backbenchers were paid $85,000 and a minister $149,000 (no idea what a prime minsietr was paid ... can't find that anywwhere ..)

That's a 66.8% increase for our backbenchers in the same period the average teacher salary went up by 54.8% .. I know which one deserves the money .. and it's nto the ones siting in Wellington behaving like children and blowing hot air ..

But on the other hand the politicians have to apply for their jobs back every three years. I wonder how some teachers would fare if they had to get 50% of the the parents to approve their continuing employment every three years.

[bogan]

But on the other hand the politicians have to apply for their jobs back every three years. I wonder how some teachers would fare if they had to get 50% of the the parents to approve their continuing employment every three years.

50% of parents seem to think that after school care and catering is also in a teachers job description. So I guess not.

[SVboy]

If that was the system I imagine teachers would become somewhat preoccupied with pleasing the parent,in order to get re-elected, at the cost of a sound education for the child. A bit like the govt...................

[oldrider]

What is a high performance teacher please?

Sure!

One who is paid for the "tangible" quality of their teaching, rather than for how long they have been doing it! (Just like high performance professional athletes etc.)

Teachers are paid appearance money, their value in the job is secondary and piss poor teachers get the same as high achievers, do you think that's fair? :shit:

[oldrider]

If that was the system I imagine teachers would become somewhat preoccupied with pleasing the parent,in order to get re-elected, at the cost of a sound education for the child. A bit like the govt...................

Well, at the end of the day the parent "is" the customer, it is "their" child that is recieving the education and why shouldn't they get what they pay for?

I bet you are selective as to what mechanic you take your bike to and I bet you demand value for money when ever you buy something!

Why shouldn't you expect value for money in such an important factor as your child's education?

As a tax payer, you are every bit as much a customer as you would be at a private school but like with the government, we get what we deserve if we accept less than what we need!

[Banditbandit]

But on the other hand the politicians have to apply for their jobs back every three years.

THis is true ... but why does that justify high pay? The only qualification for being an MP is electability - nothing to do with the actual job - a teacher in primary or secondary school needs a minimum of three years training ... what do the politicians need? A smile and the ability to lie convincingly ...


I wonder how some teachers would fare if they had to get 50% of the the parents to approve their continuing employment every three years.

And you'd get crap teachers ... three years and you get a new lot? What happens to all that axperience? ... and as one who does work in the teaching profession - we are not here to be liked or popular - we are here to help people LEARN ... if parents have to approve teachers' employment every three years you'll create a popularity contest - with little or nothing to do with good teaching ..

[Banditbandit]

Sure!

One who is paid for the "tangible" quality of their teaching, rather than for how long they have been doing it! (Just like high performance professional athletes etc.)

Teachers are paid appearance money, their value in the job is secondary and piss poor teachers get the same as high achievers, do you think that's fair? :shit:


Half an answer - how do you measure the "tangible quality of teaching" ...???? Give us some specifics.

I do agree that there are some piss poor teachers in secondary - I experienced them .. and now students turn up in my classes who carry with them the results of piss poor secondary teachers ... but defining good teaching is much harder than those outside the profession imagine ..

But as has been pointed out earlier - different students have different needs and excellent teachers get different results - a teacher in a Decile 10 school (top economic area) might experience a pack of very intelligent rebels who do not want to be there - the teacher has major problems with this group, and the class barely passes anything at all ... another teacher in a decile 1 school (bottom of the economic heap) may be achieving fantastic results simply by still having ALL the pupils in class at the end of the year ... which one is the better teacher?

I have seen, at tertiary level, a pass rate of 40% which was regarded as very good ... this was in a class of return to education students who had a 100% fail rate anywhere else ... a 40% pass rate was better than any other group of teachers had ever done with this group ... but some would say that a 40% pass rate indicates something is wrong ..

So - performance pay ? - a very difficult subject ...

[Oscar]

It probably goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway – a cursory glance at the spelling, punctuation, grammar and argument used by posters in this thread does not reflect well on the Teaching Profession.

[Banditbandit]

Well, at the end of the day the parent "is" the customer, it is "their" child that is recieving the education and why shouldn't they get what they pay for?

I bet you are selective as to what mechanic you take your bike to and I bet you demand value for money when ever you buy something!

Why shouldn't you expect value for money in such an important factor as your child's education?

As a tax payer, you are every bit as much a customer as you would be at a private school but like with the government, we get what we deserve if we accept less than what we need!

You are reducing human beings to Economic Functionaries ... human beings are much more than that ...

[oldrider]

So - performance pay ? - a very difficult subject ...

Absolutely but isn't this a discussion?

I have seen many things where 80% of a discussion is about why something can't be done, rather than why it "can be done"!

The current situation regards teachers work conditions and pay is obviously not a satisfactory one .... the teachers, pupils and parents all say so continuously!

I was very much in the same frame of mind when my own work situation was taken into performance remuneration ... wouldn't have it any other way now!

Protections put in place by unions, politicians etc are more about the benefit of the unions and the politicians and inevitably result in mediocrety!

They protect the lowest common denominator at the expence of higher achievers ... no wonder high achievers get pissed off and eventually piss off altogether!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! .... sure but if it is broke fix it fucking fast before it fails completely!

The only thing to be afraid of is if everything stays the way it is now ... unless of course you are one of those that is happy the way it is! :facepalm:

[yungatart]

Well, at the end of the day the parent "is" the customer, it is "their" child that is recieving the education and why shouldn't they get what they pay for?

I bet you are selective as to what mechanic you take your bike to and I bet you demand value for money when ever you buy something!

Why shouldn't you expect value for money in such an important factor as your child's education?

As a tax payer, you are every bit as much a customer as you would be at a private school but like with the government, we get what we deserve if we accept less than what we need!

A top rate mechanic can choose not to work on an old shitter that has been abused or neglected...

Why should teachers not expect that kids start school ready for school, disciplined, fed, cared for, nurtured and supported? The kids that come from those homes are (usually) easy to teach..its the others who take up the time, energy and resources.

[Banditbandit]

Absolutely but isn't this a discussion?

I have seen many things where 80% of a discussion is about why something can't be done, rather than why it "can be done"!

The current situation regards teachers work conditions and pay is obviously not a satisfactory one .... the teachers, pupils and parents all say so continuously!

I was very much in the same frame of mind when my own work situation was taken into performance remuneration ... wouldn't have it any other way now!

Protections put in place by unions, politicians etc are more about the benefit of the unions and the politicians and inevitably result in mediocrety!

They protect the lowest common denominator at the expence of higher achievers ... no wonder high achievers get pissed off and eventually piss off altogether!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! .... sure but if it is broke fix it fucking fast before it fails completely!

The only thing to be afraid of is if everything stays the way it is now ... unless of course you are one of those that is happy the way it is! :facepalm:

Yes - your argument is valid I asked for some performance measures ..

[oldrider]

Yes - your argument is valid I asked for some performance measures ..

With respect I am not avoiding your question but the performance indicators and agreements have to be decided and agreed upon by those directly involved!

It requires a complete new paradigm shift in thinking about how things would be if they were good when compared to the current model "by those directly involved".

[merv]

Just over 30 years ago a back bench MP was paid about the same as a teacher. As noted above the MP is now paid double what the teacher is :angry:.

Similar things occur wherever a large group of people is concerned, they get screwed because attempts are made to make savings from the total amount while the individuals get dumped on.

[Banditbandit]

With respect I am not avoiding your question but the performance indicators and agreements have to be decided and agreed upon by those directly involved!

It requires a complete new paradigm shift in thinking about how things would be if they were good when compared to the current model "by those directly involved".

Yes ... all of that ...

But see, the issue is, from inside the profession, it's not that easy ... it's anything but easy - and in fact may be too difficult to actually do ...

I've been involved in discussions at tertiary level, were we did set parameters for performance-based pay, based on teaching performance (and a couple of other Key performance Indicators expected a tertiary level) ... but we have the advantage of having stduents, most of the time, who want to be in our classes ... at primary and secondary school it is compulsory for students tro be in class .. and that changes the whole dynamic ...

Way back in the late 1960s I was put in a French class - I did not want to be there, I hated being there, but I had not choice ... I chose not to learn - and my mark for School Certificate French was in single figures ... should the French teachers have had their pay docked for not teaching me French? (I did pass enough subjects to gain School Certificate and move to the next year). Just one personal example ...

As has been said before - school cghldren come from many and varied backgrounds .. should a teacher working in Otara with underfeed children from families who do not value education and have not a single book in the house be judged ont her same outputs as a teacher from a private school where families value education, help them with their homework and feed the kids before they go to school?

Yes - I agree with the ideas and the sentiment .. but the reality is that the practical application may just be too fucking difficult ... (tho' as a tertiary teacher who sees , in most of my classes, the poor results of secondary education, I would like to b able to do it ...)

[SVboy]

Sure!

One who is paid for the "tangible" quality of their teaching, rather than for how long they have been doing it! (Just like high performance professional athletes etc.)

Teachers are paid appearance money, their value in the job is secondary and piss poor teachers get the same as high achievers, do you think that's fair? :shit:

What on earth does that mean? Every secondary teacher has to yearly meet MOE set professional standards and have to meet the criteria of their own professional body in order to remain registered. Appearance money! That is bullshit from someone unaware of the stresses involved in being in front of a class today. Anybody not performing is quickly found out from above and below and the job is too stressful to just turn up and not perform. Anyway back to your vague "criteria" for performance pay-what were they again? Go on, try and spell out some specifics!

[Berries]

It probably goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway – a cursory glance at the spelling, punctuation, grammar and argument used by posters in this thread does not reflect well on the Teaching Profession.
Your not wrong their.

[Brian d marge]

So is being a mechanic.






Just saying like. :whistle:

Agreed ,

stephen

[oldrider]

What on earth does that mean? Every secondary teacher has to yearly meet MOE set professional standards and have to meet the criteria of their own professional body in order to remain registered. Appearance money! That is bullshit from someone unaware of the stresses involved in being in front of a class today. Anybody not performing is quickly found out from above and below and the job is too stressful to just turn up and not perform. Anyway back to your vague "criteria" for performance pay-what were they again? Go on, try and spell out some specifics!

You just don't get it do you or is it that there are none so blind as those who will not see! :mellow:

If you are happy with the current situation you are probably part of the problem, rather than the solution. :facepalm:

Try telling a fly on the window to try harder and work longer hours at escaping through the glass window!

It will just die there still trying, unless he takes another direction!

Teachers (IMHO) are just like the flies on the window!

I actually value and respect quality teachers and sympathise with the plight they face in their current employment conditions ... think about that!

[oldrider]

So - performance pay ? - a very difficult subject ...

True, I didn't claim it would be easy but IMHO it should be worth it. Good luck whatever! :yes:

[duckonin]

With the way kids/teens behave these days I don't blame teachers for wanting more money. They suffer almost endless abuse from unruly students and there is very little, if anything, that they can do about it. The government is so fucking PC that they allow these hooligans to run rampant and spoil the right for every other student to get a good education.

No person held a gun at their head. Teaching was their own choice, talke the good with the shit and there is plenty of that. As for the rest of your post, education starts at home with the parents and grand- parents ect.:yes:

[duckonin]

Have you been a teacher? It's bloody hard work. Despite the pay figures teachers leave the profession in droves, often through burn out within the first 5 years.

Ha ha what a load of crap:facepalm:. Shot yourself in the foot with a load of cods wallop. Heaps of professions pay 'way less' and the 'work' is hard.

[SVboy]

You just don't get it do you or is it that there are none so blind as those who will not see! :mellow:

If you are happy with the current situation you are probably part of the problem, rather than the solution. :facepalm:

Try telling a fly on the window to try harder and work longer hours at escaping through the glass window!

It will just die there still trying, unless he takes another direction!

Teachers (IMHO) are just like the flies on the window!

I actually value and respect quality teachers and sympathise with the plight they face in their current employment conditions ... think about that!

Avoiding putting any substance to your ravings as usual. Nothing to see here, as usual. And your image of teachers as flies is as demeaning as it is inaccurate[as usual].

[PrincessBandit]

Ha ha what a load of crap:facepalm:. Shot yourself in the foot with a load of cods wallop. Heaps of professions pay 'way less' and the 'work' is hard.

Not sure how you come up with that reply. It has no bearing whatsoever on what I said.

[jasonu]

The secret to managing large class sizes was that pupils were streamed so that all the pupils in a class were learning at around the same rate. there were no slower pupils holding back the brighter ones as all the below average students were in the same stream as were all the brighter students in the same stream.

.

You mean to say this is not the case in todays schools??? Surely not.

[rapid van cleef]

You mean to say this is not the case in todays schools??? Surely not.

Every school runs their class allocations differently. Just because a class may be streamed, does not mean all kids are at the same level. Its approximate, the range of learning skills will still be huge. For example you can stream a maths class based on their maths ability, but some kids are great at maths and cant put a sentence together or spell or maybe they are autistic , or have adhd. So written and verbal instruction have to be delivered in a wide range of manners to enable most of the kids to access the curriculum. There will always be some that excell and some that dont achieve because they have no food, low self esteem, being bullied, lazy, too cool for school and some are plain nasty little fuckers. Learning to recognise these traits takes years of developing people skills and getting to know students over a long period of time to find out how to motivate them and communicate with each of them to get the most out of them( if your actually trying to do your job properly). Some teachers are very good at this, some are not. Some teachers really know their subject matter but lack some people skills. That is not a good recipe. But its like all walks of life, some excell, some average, some not so. The people that know all the dynamics that can occur in classroom do so because they have been doing it for many years. The people that dont know will never understand. I never expect anyone too understand either, its just my job, I like it. And to the grammar police, I'm not in the classroom now so you can imagine my middle finger all by itself whilst I sit at home over the summer for 6 weeks!(yeah right)

[SVboy]

Every school runs their class allocations differently. Just because a class may be streamed, does not mean all kids are at the same level. Its approximate, the range of learning skills will still be huge. For example you can stream a maths class based on their maths ability, but some kids are great at maths and cant put a sentence together or spell or maybe they are autistic , or have adhd. So written and verbal instruction have to be delivered in a wide range of manners to enable most of the kids to access the curriculum. There will always be some that excell and some that dont achieve because they have no food, low self esteem, being bullied, lazy, too cool for school and some are plain nasty little fuckers. Learning to recognise these traits takes years of developing people skills and getting to know students over a long period of time to find out how to motivate them and communicate with each of them to get the most out of them( if your actually trying to do your job properly). Some teachers are very good at this, some are not. Some teachers really know their subject matter but lack some people skills. That is not a good recipe. But its like all walks of life, some excell, some average, some not so. The people that know all the dynamics that can occur in classroom do so because they have been doing it for many years. The people that dont know will never understand. I never expect anyone too understand either, its just my job, I like it. And to the grammar police, I'm not in the classroom now so you can imagine my middle finger all by itself whilst I sit at home over the summer for 6 weeks!(yeah right)

Plus1000! I think this post sums it up in a nutshell. If anyone thinks they can put a performance pay package that is equitable and all encompassing around the variance as shown above,they have not grasped the reality of modern education or they are mindlessly following a political agenda.

[rainman]

bwaaaa ha ha ha haaaa. Wasn't the Rt Honourable Mr Banks complaining relatively recently ago that there were too many teachers coming out of Uni?

Not something you'll hear me say often, but he's right.

Wife's a teacher, good experience, great skills, qualified at senior and junior school levels, has specialities in particular subjects, lots of good references from happy principals where she has done relief teaching, but there are just no permanent jobs in our area. Oversupply. This has been the case for some years. Know several other people in exactly the same situation. That said she probably makes more money with a mix of relief work, tutoring, and doing various other jobs than she would in teaching full-time. But she'd take a full-time role if one was available. It's not about the money.

And two other things: 1. No amount of money is worth the shit she puts up with from kids and parents alike. If it were me I'd thump the little fuckers before morning tea time, and probably thump the parents later. And that's as a peace-loving hippie buddhist beatnik. 2. She (and her friends at the same level) make considerably less money than the figures quoted at the start of this post. And a vast amount of personal money gets spent buying shit for the classroom (art supplies etc.) that the ministry won't fund.

The teacher-hating crap that emanates (mostly) from the right in NZ just indicates to me that some people have authority/mommy issues.

[mashman]

Not something you'll hear me say often, but he's right.

Wife's a teacher, good experience, great skills, qualified at senior and junior school levels, has specialities in particular subjects, lots of good references from happy principals where she has done relief teaching, but there are just no permanent jobs in our area. Oversupply. This has been the case for some years. Know several other people in exactly the same situation. That said she probably makes more money with a mix of relief work, tutoring, and doing various other jobs than she would in teaching full-time. But she'd take a full-time role if one was available. It's not about the money.

And two other things: 1. No amount of money is worth the shit she puts up with from kids and parents alike. If it were me I'd thump the little fuckers before morning tea time, and probably thump the parents later. And that's as a peace-loving hippie buddhist beatnik. 2. She (and her friends at the same level) make considerably less money than the figures quoted at the start of this post. And a vast amount of personal money gets spent buying shit for the classroom (art supplies etc.) that the ministry won't fund.

The teacher-hating crap that emanates (mostly) from the right in NZ just indicates to me that some people have authority/mommy issues.

Yeah, nah. My mum had the exact same issues 10 years ago. Qualified, had plenty of relief work (both well off schools and tough schools) and desperately wanted to be able to teach the same kids on a regular basis. She's training people, but not in a school and she's not too thrilled about not having to the job that she wanted, was trained for and very much has the skills for (I take full credit for her being able to deal with "bad" kids... ok, not full credit).

The issue is money. Sorry to crack out the old record etc... but at the end of the day the only thing stopping more than one teacher being allowed to teach the same bunch of kids in the same classroom is finance. The govt can't afford it. My mum, and probably your wife, should have been mentors to those coming through as some of us assume theoretical teaching is likely light years from dealing with the variables of the classroom. Much better to shorten the learning curve if at all possible, but over a year or two, not a few weeks. I understand it's not about the money for them, it rarely is when people do jobs that are akin to shoving shit uphill.

Heh.. It ain't really teacher hating crap though is it (not wholly anyway)? We could likely say the same thing about nurses/doctors/binmen/politicians/employers etc... The issue that I see, is that the "haters" would like to see some form of redress for those who are genuinely good at what they do. Whilst not a bad "idea" in itself (given the way we live), it's the writing off of those who are perceived to be of lesser ability etc... where that may not actually be the case... and only because the computer/formula/checks and balances says so. I call it fuckin ridiculous, some call it progress, some call it fair, some really don't give a shit, or are unable to grasp the simple concept, that it's the education (amongst other things) of the next generation that's at stake. Ommmmmmm. Viva la difference, stop trying to measure it.

[oldrider]

The teacher-hating crap that emanates (mostly) from the right in NZ just indicates to me that some people have authority/mommy issues.

Teachers complain about their lot constantly .... if one dares to offer an alternative suggestion, one gets branded a teacher hater or a right winger!

It reminds me of a drunk defending his bottle!

I thought you would have been above that kinda crap rainman! (then again maybe you really are!)

Little kids are hard to train away from their cuddly blankets, the teachers seem to have adopted their less than perfect employments conditions as their own cuddly!

There's nothing more to discuss on this self perpetuating subject, the participants don't appear to want to solve it or change it for a better deal!

[Jantar]

..... Anyway back to your vague "criteria" for performance pay-what were they again? Go on, try and spell out some specifics!

Ok, I've been giving this some thought. My own salary has a 15% Performance Incentive bonus available, so I tried to see how this same formula could be applied to teachers.

My 15% is divided into 3 sections each of 5% available.
5% depends on the compay as a whole performs, as usually has 2 or 3 components.
5% depends on our site performace and has 3 components.
5% depends on my own personal achievements and also has three components.
Each component has 3 measurement points rated from 0% to 100% achievement.

For teachers this could be something like:
Nationally: (PI is performance incentive)
1. An increase in students achieving National standards of 20% for 100% PI achievement, 10% increase for 50% PI achievement, 0% increase for no achievment in that component.
2. 100% of students passing NCEA for 100% PI, 70% passing for 50% PI, 40% passing for 0% PI

School:
1. ERO report showing all aspects being achieved for 100% PI, most aspects being achieved for 50% PI, some aspects being achieved for 0% PI.
2. School operates at 3% below budget finacially for 100% PI, school exceeds budget by up to 2% for 50% PI, school exceeds budget by 6% for 0% PI.
3. School increases national standards (or NCEA) achievement by 10% for 100% PI, by 5% for 50% PI and 0% for 0% PI.

Individual:
1. Curriculum fully met during school year for 100% PI, Missed by 1 part for 50% PI, missed by 2 parts for 0% PI
2. Assists in x extra-curricular activities for 100% PI, y extra-curricular activities for 50%PI, z extra-curricular activities for 0% PI. (these numbers would be negotiated annually)
3. Teacher will attend and achieve 3 training courses during the year, 100%PI for all 3, 50% PI for 2, 0% PI for 1 or less.

OK, this is just a possible framework. Actual Individual and school KPIs would be negotiated annually.

[The Pastor]

wow do teachers get paid 74k? any teacher on here care to back that claim up? Maybe i need to swap careers!

[Oscar]

Teachers complain about their lot constantly .... if one dares to offer an alternative suggestion, one gets branded a teacher hater or a right winger!

It reminds me of a drunk defending his bottle!

I thought you would have been above that kinda crap rainman! (then again maybe you really are!)

Little kids are hard to train away from their cuddly blankets, the teachers seem to have adopted their less than perfect employments conditions as their own cuddly!

There's nothing more to discuss on this self perpetuating subject, the participants don't appear to want to solve it or change it for a better deal!

Bullshit.
My teacher just found another job away from teaching.
She's a great teacher who has been ground down under the weight of a shit system, bad pay and stupid parents.
25 years of experience down the karzi.

[rapid van cleef]

wow do teachers get paid 74k? any teacher on here care to back that claim up? Maybe i need to swap careers!

Top of the payscale (around 8 years of teaching after 4 years studying after ncea level 3 is around 67K). anything more than that is management units for head of department, head of house, assistant principal, principal etc. starting salary straight outta uni is around 50k i believe. An average teacher will spend around 60 hours per week working. Remeber that they are paid to get the job done, not knock off at 3 when the kids leave. There are teachers that roll out of the carpark just after 3 every day and it boils my piss(a minority but does happen). Those teachers working considerable less than that, in my opinion, are not doing the job properly. Plenty of teachers go and study for a masters or phd which will cost in the region of 10K in uni fees which is paid for by the teacher themselves. there is no pay increase linked to these higher qualifications. I came here from UK where I was top of the payscale and had to drop down several paygrades as nzqa did not value my BA HONS Degree and 6 years of teaching as much as a NZ trained teacher....rant rant. ah well, never mind.

[The Pastor]

Top of the payscale (around 8 years of teaching after 4 years studying after ncea level 3 is around 67K). anything more than that is management units for head of department, head of house, assistant principal, principal etc. starting salary straight outta uni is around 50k i believe. An average teacher will spend around 60 hours per week working. Remeber that they are paid to get the job done, not knock off at 3 when the kids leave. There are teachers that roll out of the carpark just after 3 every day and it boils my piss(a minority but does happen). Those teachers working considerable less than that, in my opinion, are not doing the job properly. Plenty of teachers go and study for a masters or phd which will cost in the region of 10K in uni fees which is paid for by the teacher themselves. there is no pay increase linked to these higher qualifications. I came here from UK where I was top of the payscale and had to drop down several paygrades as nzqa did not value my BA HONS Degree and 6 years of teaching as much as a NZ trained teacher....rant rant. ah well, never mind.
piss off they do 60hrs of work, your dreaming.

[rapid van cleef]

ok then.....you obviously know a lot about it, so thats great.

[Jantar]

piss off they do 60hrs of work, your dreaming.

Actually, some do, and they deserve to be rewarded. Many hardly do 40 hours.

See, performance based incentives do make sense.

[Oscar]

piss off they do 60hrs of work, your dreaming.

From the looks of your post, no teacher worked overtime on you...

[brendonjw]

Actually, some do, and they deserve to be rewarded. Many hardly do 40 hours.

See, performance based incentives do make sense.

After flatting with 2 primary school teachers and 1 intermediate school one over the past 2 years i can confirm that none of them did even close to a 60 hour week and 40 hours would have been a stretch for 2 of them, Sure they would go in for 1 day during school holidays to setup for next term but considering how many school holidays there were it didn't seem like much of a "sacrifice" to me. Sure there are some teachers that do go above and beyond (and they should be rewarded) but they seem to be in the minority these days i think. Having just interviewed another teacher as a potential new flatmate i'm seriously thinking of moving overseas if have kids. :weep:

[rainman]

Actually, some do, and they deserve to be rewarded. Many hardly do 40 hours.

See, performance based incentives do make sense.

Rather simplistic logic there, surely. As in any endeavour, turning up and working long hours are no guarantee of high performance. In fact it's often the case that the long hours are correlated with crap performance.

I think all simplistic logic in favour of performance based pay for teachers generally falls on its arse - the problem is quite tricky. Apart from a few serial underperformers I imagine most people, teachers included, would actually be supportive, if it could be done without major side-effects. That and the fact that if you considered actual hours worked, even if you penalised the slackers and paid the good and excellent their fair slice, the exercise would not be a zero sum game. And I don't see either major party supporting any serious initiatives to lift us out of being a low wage, high cost economy.

I know you had a crack at making some suggestions that went some way toward a performance pay mechanism, but I think even though it's not bad it still has some issues. Unfortunately I'm chasing a mega deadline that will have me working to the wee smalls tonight again so I can't address them in detail, but I'll come back in a few days and be a bit more expansive.

[mashman]

As was pointed out by a chap this evening. What happens if the teacher in question is good with the window lickers and as such teaches that group? Are they penalised based on their results? My question would be: How do you set up the performance related pay "scale"? Do you have a base salary (i.e. 50k) with add-ons based on KPI? Meaning that some will have to take a pay cut until they have proven themselves against some measures set up by a board to top up their salary to the level they currently receive? or is there a new mystical pot of millions of $$$ to reward those who make the grade so to speak? Measuring performance based on time spent working is no measure at all in regards to quality or work in my experience.

[Jantar]

.... How do you set up the performance related pay "scale"? ......

Go back and read my suggestion on that on the previous page.

[mashman]

Go back and read my suggestion on that on the previous page.

Ok, I did. Now can you answer where the money is gonna come from to pay for it?

Other than that I can see that your suggestions are open to interpretation. I can't see teachers rocking up to the class and asking them to be conscientious students because they need their bonus. I'm almost dead against performance measurement at schools given the array of variables that affect learning. A slight bias I guess. That doesn't mean that what you suggest would not work, but I would have though that it'd negatively affect teacher turnover based on the self "valuation" of the teacher.

[Jantar]

Ok, I did. Now can you answer where the money is gonna come from to pay for it?

....

Simple. Next pay round instead of a direct pay rise, the government introduces the first stage of performance incentitives. Continue for the next few years

As class sizes increase and the number of teachers decrease we would be left with the better teachers earning more.

[PrincessBandit]

As class sizes increase and the number of teachers decrease we would be left with the better teachers earning more.

Class sizes increase and teacher numbers decrease - YIKES!

[mashman]

Simple. Next pay round instead of a direct pay rise, the government introduces the first stage of performance incentitives. Continue for the next few years

As class sizes increase and the number of teachers decrease we would be left with the better teachers earning more.

Cool :blink:. I'm sure they'll appreciate the encouragement.

Or not.

[Banditbandit]

Simple. Next pay round instead of a direct pay rise, the government introduces the first stage of performance incentitives. Continue for the next few years

As class sizes increase and the number of teachers decrease we would be left with the better teachers earning more.



Quick question - which planet are you on?

[rapid van cleef]

Quick question - which planet are you on?

Yeah I agree. Thats total bollocks. Think about this, as the queue gets bigger at the checkout does the line move quicker? Not really difficult to understand this basic principal. More 1 on 1 time spent with a student = improved grades, very simple.

[Jantar]

Yeah I agree. Thats total bollocks. Think about this, as the queue gets bigger at the checkout does the line move quicker? Not really difficult to understand this basic principal. More 1 on 1 time spent with a student = improved grades, very simple.

So you are saying there should be 1 teacher for every pupil? What planet are you living on?

The pupli: teacher ratio is currently 15:1 and believe the government are advocating for 17:1. That is still a long way from the 25:1 when I was a pupil and education standards were a lot higher than they are currently. Improved grades will come about when schools go back to streaming pupils and threatening to hold back those who just don't make it. Having a whole class working at a similar pace requires less teacher time than having one or two disruptive pupils that take up a disproportionate effort onthe part of the teacher.

Oh your checkout example is a fallacy as teachers don't teach in pupil in turn, they teach each class in turn.

[rapid van cleef]

So you are saying there should be 1 teacher for every pupil? What planet are you living on?

The pupli: teacher ratio is currently 15:1 and believe the government are advocating for 17:1. That is still a long way from the 25:1 when I was a pupil and education standards were a lot higher than they are currently. Improved grades will come about when schools go back to streaming pupils and threatening to hold back those who just don't make it. Having a whole class working at a similar pace requires less teacher time than having one or two disruptive pupils that take up a disproportionate effort onthe part of the teacher.

Oh your checkout example is a fallacy as teachers don't teach in pupil in turn, they teach each class in turn.

no that is not correct. you teach the the middle ground initially, then spend the remainder of the class circulating and working with individuals and small groups then back to whole class, then back to smaller groups and individuals. the days of effective teaching being a teacher standing at the front of the class for the whole lesson are long gone.

i did not think for a second that anyone would take my explanation meaning that there should be 1 - 1 tuition for everyone, but it should happen in every lesson on some level so that by the end of the week, you have sat with every student in the class for a few minutes.

[PrincessBandit]

no that is not correct. you teach the the middle ground initially, then spend the remainder of the class circulating and working with individuals and small groups then back to whole class, then back to smaller groups and individuals. the days of effective teaching being a teacher standing at the front of the class for the whole lesson are long gone.

i did not think for a second that anyone would take my explanation meaning that there should be 1 - 1 tuition for everyone, but it should happen in every lesson on some level so that by the end of the week, you have sat with every student in the class for a few minutes.

You are quite right - the one-size-fits-all style of teaching (with teacher up the front, often now referred to as a "chalk and talk" teacher) is long gone. Differentiation is what it's all about now, and teachers are expected to provide, basically, customised lessons which cater for every level of need in their classroom. Easier said that done when you see the vast spectrum of ability, aptitude and attitude all contained in one room... Oh, and on top of that, "boring" is not allowed! Everything has to be fun and interesting for maximum engagement :wacko:

[Winston001]

Not really difficult to understand this basic principal. More 1 on 1 time spent with a student = improved grades, very simple.

Small class size is one of those commonsense answers to better education.


Or is it?

I've read research which indicates large classes can be just as effective in educating pupils. For example Asian schools have a very high pupil:teacher ratio yet also have achievement levels. Asian and Eurpean kids who come here think our schools are like a holiday camp. My daughter experienced the tough side of this with 3 weeks in France. Long long school days plus Saturday morning. She came home exhausted. :D

[Jantar]

I recall when I was still at school that we had 45 pupils as an average class size at primary school (no intermediate where I was), and when at high school that dropped to around 30 for most classes I felt it was as though we had a teacher to ourselves.

I also recall that my teacher managed to spend some time with each pupil every day while we were doing various text book exercises. And the standards achieved were much higher than today's standards.

At Teacher's College (when I was seriously considering becoming a teacher) we were taught that smaller class sizes made the teacher's job easier, but wasn't absolutely neccessary as long as pupils were grouped into similar levels of ability.

Incidentally, I enjoyed being in the classroom and teaching, it was the politics of education that persuaded me that teaching was never going to the proffession for me.

[merv]

You do understand that back when we were young kids grew up learning to behave in the home first before they went to school. They didn't have smart phones in their hands and they could sit still for more than 40 seconds before they scream out for personal attention. This is the me me me generation.

Poor teachers trying to cope with the modern crowd on outdated government funding models I say.

[Brian d marge]

You do understand that back when we were young kids grew up learning to behave in the home first before they went to school. They didn't have smart phones in their hands and they could sit still for more than 40 seconds before they scream out for personal attention. This is the me me me generation.

Poor teachers trying to cope with the modern crowd on outdated government funding models I say.

the world changed, August the 15th 1971

anything you knew was, and is, now null and void

what you have now is a direct result of 1971

Stephen

[Banditbandit]

Incidentally, I enjoyed being in the classroom and teaching, it was the politics of education that persuaded me that teaching was never going to the proffession for me.

What??? Too many non-teachers commenting on teachers' performance????

[Jantar]

What??? Too many non-teachers commenting on teachers' performance????

No. Too much PC bullshit.

[oldrider]

What??? Too many non-teachers commenting on teachers' performance????

Only teachers, students, parents and teacher employers should measure teachers performance as they are the stake holders!

Teachers regularly complain about their conditions of employment and from what they tell us, I agree with them and all of us have "some" experience on employment conditions!

There are different ways of tidying up employment conditions and it really should begin at the work face between the employer representative I.E. the teachers most immediate manager and the actual teacher themselves!

They should form a contract that clearly states what is expected and how it should be measured and how it should be rewarded.

The contract should be a living document and visited on a regular basis to maintain direction and to eliminate unwanted surprises and to track progress.

IMHO it is the same basic process that teacher pupil parent interviews take and if done with integrety and regularity, it should produce the required results.

It's called performance payment because that is what it measures in "every" direction, just like parent teacher meetings. Can't you just feel the :love:!