The Fingertight Racing Sidecar Project

[Pumba]

So as a result of the amazing effort by Warren (wildman (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/33762-wildman)) sitting the shed as of 6pm tonight is my new old sidecar chassis.

I cannot thank him enough, you mate are a legend:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

So now I just need to get my arse into gear.

As I see it I will strip it down give it a good wash, check all the bearings, sort out the mounts for the new engine (I hope it fits), then may get it blasted, a new coat of paint and away we go. Sounds easy. Check back in 6 months and we will see how far we have got :laugh:

Oh photos

[crazy man]

first look it looked like lustys old sidecar but dont know

[speedpro]

That's what I thought as well. I don't think so though but I last saw it a long time ago.

My second thought was how uncomfortable it looks with all the sharp edges. Should be good fun though.

I'd suggest getting it running before you make it look pretty. Chances are you will end up changing stuff and mess up your pretty paint etc.

[Pumba]

Yea got it off Doug Shalier. Don't know where it came from prior to that.

Just sitting on it I am alerted to a few square edges that won't last. Yea thinking getting the engine in will be the first thing to do and then go from there.

[crazy man]

l know Doug Shalier but got out of buckets when he started sidecars so did not get to see it. l would think that lusty would of had somthing to do with building it. just along the same lines as his

[Gazzza]

Looks bloody good to me, another rig destined for the track :)

Speedpro is right though, get every thing sorted first engine wise and comfort for pilot and swinger, then make it pretty. I'm still changing bits and pieces now... Last change was the engine swap and i was only a couple of mm's clearence short of chopping the frame. There seems to be plenty of bars for the swinger, does look like a stretch from the kneelers to the bars, but that could just be the photo.
Any idea of the engine going in to it?
If a second pair of hands would be of any help just yell out, most weekends I would be free to in.

Also like to put in a good word for Warren, he gave me the font end which is on Chris and Richies (almost) completed rig, so with out him I wouldn't even had enough to start that one, cheers mate.

[crazy man]

so is this rig going to be ready for the first round?

[Pumba]

Unfortuently not. Real world has gotten in the way.

Complicated by the fact that my shed is under the house and my 11 month old sons room is directly above the work bench. Means late night work and noisy activities are fairly limited.

The Mrs and Kid are looking at heading away to the parents place this week, and I am borrowing a welder, so we should see some good progress.

[seymour14]

Well it will be a shame not to see it on this first outing, Crazyman and myself are keen to see what the Sidecar fraternity have in store when we get up there. We're still tossing up as to who will be where on the outfit, such a awesome looking meeting with plenty of options on the two days. Keep persevering, Rome wasn't built in a day!:apint:

[crazy man]

Unfortuently not. Real world has gotten in the way.

Complicated by the fact that my shed is under the house and my 11 month old sons room is directly above the work bench. Means late night work and noisy activities are fairly limited.

The Mrs and Kid are looking at heading away to the parents place this week, and I am borrowing a welder, so we should see some good progress.that a shame but aleast you will have some progress soon . what engine did it have in it and what are you putting in it? amazzing after 2 week sint the sandblasers had it my sidecar not far of finshed

[Pumba]

When Doug was racing it I think he had a 125 Honda in (CB, CG, SL, one of those) but after they stopped racing down there it was re-powered with a DT200 as a toy for the kids and farm hack/toy.

Got an FXR engine that will be going in it.

[wildman]

Well it will be a shame not to see it on this first outing, Crazyman and myself are keen to see what the Sidecar fraternity have in store when we get up there. We're still tossing up as to who will be where on the outfit, such a awesome looking meeting with plenty of options on the two days. Keep persevering, Rome wasn't built in a day!:apint:

Hey are you guys coming up for meeting on 24-25th nov? We need to make yous feel welcome if you are:2thumbsup Can we have a get together at your place Gazzza?:innocent:

[crazy man]

Hey are you guys coming up for meeting on 24-25th nov? We need to make yous feel welcome if you are:2thumbsup Can we have a get together at your place Gazzza?:innocent:yip we will be there . hope to have it running early this week. party time then is it. some old carcar fotage in the gpr thread now if you have not seen it .will bring a copy down with us if you still want it

[Pumba]

Well 2 nights of hard work in the shed has resulted in the engine now fixed in place. My welding skills resemble something that looks more like a flock of seagulls have visited the garage. All my measuring tells we it is pretty much in the right place and lined up, but my calibrated eye is telling me it may not be sitting perfectly true. Close enough is good enough I say. Tell you what, as this is the first engine I have fitted I have a new respect for you sick bastards that have fitted engines into odd ball frames, especially the FXR, that is one heavy lump of steel to be lifting in and out of place.

I have also done a bit on the front end. Stripped it all, and pulled the brakes apart. I am quite surprised as once I got all the gunk off them the are in pretty good nick, seals seem fine as well, just need to get some new brake pads as the other fell apart in my hands. Haven't got the forks apart yet, that should be fun. seems to have an internal star fitting under the fork cap holding the springs in. Not sure what tool I am going to need to make to get that out.

Anyway, Mrs and Kid are back tomorrow so back, things will slow down. Will need to tidy the house tomorrow morning to gain some points that I can burn away over the weekend again spending more time in the shed.

[Pumba]

Hmmm, well things have slowed down, and today they have come to a temporary hault:violin::violin:

I have picked myself up a new job and we are on the move south out of Auckland and to Waikato. This means the house needs to be sold which unfortuently means today I had to pack up some of my toys and get them out of my shed and send them to storage, aka the old mans shed. Problem with toys in storage they are harder for me to play with, especially when they are an 1.5hrs away.

So, yea, not expecting much progress until we actually have a new house to move to, or at least this one is sold. the good news I guess is that the new place should have a bigger shed:woohoo:

[seymour14]

Good luck with the move, and I guess we will all have to be patient for the meantime. On the upside, the Waikato could be more central for bucketeering!!

[Pumba]

So thread dredge time.

Well so far this weekend nothing as worked like a planned. Got so fed up with shit not fitting all the mounts that I had previously made for the engine that I had to walk away in disgust after only about an 1.5hr of work.

Now after a night of thinking about what to do next (and a couple of liquid relaxants) I come to the conclusion that rather than fuck around trying to sort out the mounts I had, I would grind the fuckers off and start again. So I have just spent that last couple of hours doing just that.

So I am now back to square fucking one regarding the mounting of the engine, and really the chair doesn't look a lot different than picture 1 of this thread:facepalm:

Fuck this thread is starting to feel a bit like F5Dave's 100 build thread. Na got a long way to go before it is that bad.

[peril 787b]

If you need a hand, I may be able to offer assistance - many years ago I built/raced bucket chairs and am tempting myself to get back involved... This may be the step needed to get serious.

[Pumba]

If you need a hand, I may be able to offer assistance.

Cheers for the offer. I think what I need more than anything is TIME!

Well the weekend didn't really go to plan. On the plus side the engine is very solidly mounted in with the mk2 engine mounts being far superior to the original nose I made. Oh and I think the engine is straight this time:whistle:

On the down side not a lot more got done and I feel like I am up against as far to do it all properly before the GP. I am still hopeful but it just depends on what happens this weekend as to if it is possible (i.e. I get at least a full day and night with no baby sitting duties).

One of the biggest problems I am going to have is the FXR's oil cooler. I don't feel I can mount it in the standard position as I just don't see how it is going to get the required air flow; however the solid oil lines to the cooler are proving an issue. Thinking that I will need to cut the solid lines shorter and get some longer lengths of oil line re-crimped on the end to allow me to relocate the cooler, or am I over-thinking it and these oil coolers don't need anywhere near the volume of air that I think they need. Any advice on this one would be appreciated.

I didn't bother taking any photos as iIdon't feel enough has changed to warrant it.

Oh I also learnt that I appear to be a shit load better at arc welding rather than mig. Or maybe the arc I was using was just better, who knows. Another learning was that the box section frame is fairly thin wall, and the arc can blow holes it pretty quick if I am not paying attention:crazy:

[worm13]

I havent seen that old girl for 14ish years, Im pretty sure that was a Lusty build, use to run a KE100 Kawasaki wiz bang engine in it, Doug and Ali got it as Ali was right into being the extra lump on a chair untill she had a biff with another rider and swar she would never ride for him again, Doug brought this and slapped his 100 motor out of his solo and they were away laughing.

[Pumba]

Cheers Worm. Good to hear a bit of history of the rig. If it was built for one of the nasty 2 stroke things it is not a wonder squeezing the FXR donk in there is proving a tight fit.

[Pumba]

So another weekend gone and some more work done. Even took some pictures for those that care.

Summary of the weekend is that the chair is back on its wheels and rolling around the shed, unfortunatly it is only rolling by man power not FXR power:(

Front brakes have been cleaned re-assembled with new pads, oil cooler is mounted with one oil line in place, and the wiring loom has been stripped of all the crap and laid up in place.

So next steps are to get a new oil line made up to fit the relocated oil cooler location, wire up the electrics, and sort out the fuel delivery.

I have thrown the coil where there were already a couple of bolt holes, does anyone see any issue with its location

281089

After sitting on it today with the chain in place I have also decided that I will be making up a shield to over the chain as I realised looking down that if a chain would fail that it really could get rather messy. Also while we are talking chains think I am going to put in a chain roller, maybe this http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=580061047, to ensure that I get clearance to one of the frame rails. Of course ideally the engine would have been mounted lower, but its not for a number of other reasons.

So really it is not going to be ready for this coming weekend as I have just run out of time and has I have no shed here at my rental cant work on it during the week :( I really am a gutted.

Anyway photos, just because


281090 281091 281092 281093 281094

[Henk]

Good that progress is being made, bummer that it won't be ready.
That coil will be fine where it is.

[ac3_snow]

Is that one of those VT250 inboard disc things on the front? What kind of wheel has it been attached to, is it a 10inch mini wheel or similar?

[Pumba]

Yea runs a VT250F inboard disk and calliper from the early 80's up front. Wheels front and rear (as far as I am aware) are from a Suzuki RV90 monkey bike. The side wheel is just a car rim, possibly mini in origin.

[Gazzza]

Looks like its coming along nicely, shame it won't make Tokoroa, how is Mt Wellington looking??

Good news for the rigs, I know of another rig being made, pics to follow, might be a couple of months away, and its another local runner... So that could make seven out by June-July.

[Pumba]

Looks like its coming along nicely, shame it won't make Tokoroa, how is Mt Wellington looking??

Good news for the rigs, I know of another rig being made, pics to follow, might be a couple of months away, and its another local runner... So that could make seven out by June-July.

Given that the Mt Welly April meet is the week after Tok I cant see much progress being made (limited to weekend work as the sidecar is at the olds because there is no shed at our rental) and looking at the calendar there is a good chance we will be moving the weekend of the May meet:rolleyes:

So June might be the next chance, by which time time it should dam well be finished.

[Pumba]

Well it is finally here. The chair is back in my own garage so I can get some work done on it while the mrs does that child raising thing (or plays playstation/Xbox once said kid is on bed .

Should see some progress now an a running chair at the next meet

284254

[Rick 52]

Well it is finally here. The chair is back in my own garage so I can get some work done on it while the mrs does that child raising thing (or plays playstation/Xbox once said kid is on bed .

Should see some progress now an a running chair at the next meet

284254

Great news, start of the season and we should have 3 chairs..

[Henk]

Great news, start of the season and we should have 3 chairs..

If everyone who has said they may turn up fronts on the day we should have more than that

Pumba
Us
The Lawrences
Brenton
Des

Could get busy in turn one.

[Rick 52]

If everyone who has said they may turn up fronts on the day we should have more than that

Pumba
Us
The Lawrences
Brenton
Des

Could get busy in turn one.

Forgot about Des, thought Brenton was selling up, Turn one ...bring it on!!

[racer40]

If they all turn up, then it should be fastest to back, & we can play stockcars, not that Ive never hit anyone before. I will call Des to make sure he is ready

[haydes55]

Just out if curiosity, you have a swinger in the bucket sidecars? And what's the engine sizes?

[Henk]

Yes you have a swinger, engine sizes as pre F4 rules.

150cc four stroke
125cc air cooled two stroke with 24mm carb restriction
100cc water cooled two stroke.

[haydes55]

Employ children and dwarves as swingers? Haha

I want to get along and watch these racing!

[Henk]

Employ children and dwarves as swingers? Haha

I want to get along and watch these racing!

I must qualify as a child since I refuse to grow up and am too tall to be a dwarf.
Next weekend at Mt Wellington is the next meeting. Hoping for better weather this time, turning it upside down was a bit of a laugh but not that much fun I'm in a hurry to do it again.

[mr bucketracer]

1995 dont know what happen to this sidecar

[Pumba]

Mine is getting there. Electrics are all in place, I just need to get another new chain tomorrow, along with some bits an pieces for the fuel system and it should be running.

Out of interest saw this on the sidecar association FB page.

284522

Someone had made it for the 110cc schools comp. They are completely unnecessary but man they look cool.

[Henk]

Pumba, every time I see that you have posted in this thread I get false hopes that I'm going to find "it lives"

You have about a week and a half, let me know if there is anything I can send down in a courier bag if you are short of FXR bits.

[nodrog]

Well it is finally here. The chair is back in my own garage so I can get some work done on it while the mrs does that child raising thing (or plays playstation/Xbox once said kid is on bed .

Should see some progress now an a running chair at the next meet

284254

Is that kais agip sidecar?

[Pumba]

Is that kais agip sidecar?

He wishes.

[Pumba]

Pumba, every time I see that you have posted in this thread I get false hopes that I'm going to find "it lives"

You have about a week and a half, let me know if there is anything I can send down in a courier bag if you are short of FXR bits.

Getting oh so close mate. Pretty sure I have everything (or what I need) to make it run. It wont be pretty but it will be there!

[Henk]

Getting oh so close mate. Pretty sure I have everything (or what I need) to make it run. It wont be pretty but it will be there!

Side bet? Race you for a beer :)

[Gazzza]

Fired up ours today, will be there, most likely just the Sunday, Pumba will you be there on the Saturday, if so might try and make both days. Good to see every oe on the day.

[Pumba]

Well I haven't quite fired mine up. But it is oh so close. Just need to remember to take the fuel can to work tomorrow so I can get some fresh juice and we should be good to go.

Gazza I haven't confirmed he plans for the weekend yet. I would really like to be there Saturday for a bit of a shake down but I guess we will see.

I did become very aware tonight that when I am sitting on the chair that my thigh is incredibly close to the chain. I have started fabricating a guard but it is only a stop gap as really the entire knee scoop needs to be widened to give my ample legs a bit more space, unfortunately to do that involves cutting and welding. The right hand side was easy to adjust. I just used a persuasion device.

[racer40]

I rang Des & he says he should be there, What about Brenton ?

[Pumba]

IT LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::w oohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woo hoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::wooho o::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::w oohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woo hoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::wooho o::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::w oohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woo hoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::wooho o::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

(And yes i really did do a happy dance all over the garage)

[Henk]

Awesome, that's what I wanted to hear.
See you sunday

[Gazzza]

Just to confirm we will be there rain hail or shine, great to hear Pumba's beast lives :) :) will see you guys Sunday (sorry Saturday is out)

[Pumba]

Just spent some time in the shed going over it all (read checking bolts, in my defence only two of the axles were fingretight:facepalm:). Still a couple of things to do, need to pick up a couple of bolts tomorow to replace some stuffed ones, some copper washers so I can finish the brakes (need them for the new master cylinder on the FXR as well) and some fork oil (not that the forks appear all that effective I am sure they will work better with some oil).

Still hoping I can get up there Saturday for a couple of laps, but who knows at this stage.

[Moooools]

I guess I will start the bets on how reliable this one is:

You will turn up on saturday with just a couple of things left to cable tie up proclaiming that it ran great up the driveway when you tried it.

It will start and run for a few minutes but half way into your first lap it will start missing and you won't have a fucking clue why.

Then you realise that a jet has fallen out and your choke is not the sidecar model and the fuel pump is pumping backwards and you will fix all of those things.

It will start running rough again 3 laps in and you really have no clue now so Henk and Rick come over and help. After 2 hours of dicking around you trace it back to a fucked CDI and Henk grabs one out of the van and throws it in and it is running again.

Next run things are going good until the 5th lap when one of the wheels falls off.

You carry it to pits and refit the wheel, suit up and sit on it and your swinger realises the engine mounts are all cracked.

You go home defeated and saddened.

Repeat for every bucket meet until the end of time.

:laugh:

[Henk]

Thank you max, our resident ray of sunshine.

[Moooools]

Thank you max, our resident ray of sunshine.

You are more than welcome Henk.

[Henk]

You are more than welcome Henk.

Some of that was uncalled for I must say.
Yes we have had

1. CDI issues
2. Fuel pump issues
3. Engine ready to fall out because the engine mounts all cracked

We've never had a wheel fall off, jet fall out or a wheel fall off.

We have had issues with cracked exhausts, stripped key on the sprocket holder and all the air in one of the tyres repeatedly making a bid for freedom, aside from that they have been quite reliable when they weren't upside down.

[Moooools]

Some of that was uncalled for I must say.
Yes we have had

1. CDI issues
2. Fuel pump issues
3. Engine ready to fall out because the engine mounts all cracked

We've never had a wheel fall off, jet fall out or a wheel fall off.

We have had issues with cracked exhausts, stripped key on the sprocket holder and all the air in one of the tyres repeatedly making a bid for freedom, aside from that they have been quite reliable when they weren't upside down.

Hey now I didn't say it was just your chair!
I was referring to a variety of three wheeled automotive contraptions that have turned up. I don't know if a jet has specifically fallen out on any chair but there seems to be a repeating issue of engines not fuelling properly in these things.

[wildman]

I guess I will start the bets on how reliable this one is:

You will turn up on saturday with just a couple of things left to cable tie up proclaiming that it ran great up the driveway when you tried it.

It will start and run for a few minutes but half way into your first lap it will start missing and you won't have a fucking clue why.

Then you realise that a jet has fallen out and your choke is not the sidecar model and the fuel pump is pumping backwards and you will fix all of those things.

It will start running rough again 3 laps in and you really have no clue now so Henk and Rick come over and help. After 2 hours of dicking around you trace it back to a fucked CDI and Henk grabs one out of the van and throws it in and it is running again.

Next run things are going good until the 5th lap when one of the wheels falls off.

You carry it to pits and refit the wheel, suit up and sit on it and your swinger realises the engine mounts are all cracked.

You go home defeated and saddened.

Repeat for every bucket meet until the end of time.

:laugh:

So where's the one you were building???????? I'd rather push my sidecar than ride a bike [ it gets me fitter ]:shake:

[Henk]

Hey now I didn't say it was just your chair!
I was referring to a variety of three wheeled automotive contraptions that have turned up. I don't know if a jet has specifically fallen out on any chair but there seems to be a repeating issue of engines not fuelling properly in these things.

Yeah there has been a fair bit of time spent getting fuelling sorted on just about every chair I've seen early on. Once sorted they are all good though. I think I'd go for gravity feed if it could be made to work around the space constraints. Vacuum pumps are all good once set up and the electric pump on the Lawrence rig is pretty well sorted now. The biggest issue they had was either too much pressure or not enough, all on the same day.

[Drew]

Yeah there has been a fair bit of time spent getting fuelling sorted on just about every chair I've seen early on. Once sorted they are all good though. I think I'd go for gravity feed if it could be made to work around the space constraints. Vacuum pumps are all good once set up and the electric pump on the Lawrence rig is pretty well sorted now. The biggest issue they had was either too much pressure or not enough, all on the same day.

I can actually be partially helpful in a bucket thread for once.

Is your tank baffled really well? On our full size chair the first five litres represent the bottom of the tank, and everything over it will make it's way to the motor. And that's with a very small baffled area at the pickup.

Pressure regulator fixes the over fueling on carbs. Bit of fucking around to set it up, pressure guage inline, and pump gas into your bowl slowly. When the pressure spikes, repeat on an adjustable regulator (ball valve will do) and replicate the first test on the guage.

[Moooools]

So where's the one you were building???????? I'd rather push my sidecar than ride a bike [ it gets me fitter ]:shake:

Meh. one day. Too many projects. I have a CAD model that I tick away at here and there when I am bored.

[Moooools]

Yeah there has been a fair bit of time spent getting fuelling sorted on just about every chair I've seen early on. Once sorted they are all good though. I think I'd go for gravity feed if it could be made to work around the space constraints. Vacuum pumps are all good once set up and the electric pump on the Lawrence rig is pretty well sorted now. The biggest issue they had was either too much pressure or not enough, all on the same day.

Also I can't imagine standard float bowls are much use with any sort of lateral G. But I don't know if they will actually stop fuelling or just try and spill out the overflows.

[Drew]

Also I can't imagine standard float bowls are much use with any sort of lateral G. But I don't know if they will actually stop fuelling or just try and spill out the overflows.

Hasn't presented any issue on the carbed full size ones I've ridden. Prolly getting higher lateral G's on those than a bucket.

[wildman]

Hey now I didn't say it was just your chair!
I was referring to a variety of three wheeled automotive contraptions that have turned up. I don't know if a jet has specifically fallen out on any chair but there seems to be a repeating issue of engines not fuelling properly in these things.

You forgot the exhaust snapping off and firing out the side of the chair,:laugh: Doh that was mine.

[wildman]

Hasn't presented any issue on the carbed full size ones I've ridden. Prolly getting higher lateral G's on those than a bucket.

The vaccum pumps being used are go-kart ones, and the trick to getting them working right is make sure the pulse line is as short as possible and the right material and ideally should be picking up from the crankcase, not inlet tract and fit adjustable vavle in bypass line.

[Henk]

We've found the trick to be to run the fuel in a loop with a T down to the carb and basically letting it gravity feed down. Header tanks and the like we're causing issues with getting pressurised, only real bugger with ours and the vacuum pump is manualy priming it by doing a suck blow on the vacuum line to the pump before the first run, but I think I have the solution for that.

[Kickaha]

Pressure regulator fixes the over fueling on carbs.
There's a Yamaha fuel pump with built in regulator which is an even better fix


The vaccum pumps being used are go-kart ones, and the trick to getting them working right is make sure the pulse line is as short as possible and the right material and ideally should be picking up from the crankcase, not inlet tract and fit adjustable vavle in bypass line.
We used a Holley fuel regulator with those Mikuni pumps set at about 1.5-2psi, still not as good as the electric Yamaha pump (if you have a power supply)

[Henk]

Going to be quite crowded out there tomorrow if everyone turns up. Brian has welded a third wheel to the AX.

[Pumba]

Brian has welded a third wheel to the AX.

That sounds scarier than my unproven rig.

[Henk]

He's never going to wear out the tyre on the third wheel with the amount of time it spends in the air.

[Rick 52]

He's never going to wear out the tyre on the third wheel with the amount of time it spends in the air.

It's the scariest thing I have even made go forwards ! :no:

[ac3_snow]

That sounds scarier than my unproven rig.

Haha I prefer.... 'Exhilerating' :D

[Henk]

It's the scariest thing I have even made go forwards ! :no:

Wasn't that bad, how would you feel about selling up our rig and welding one of our spare kart wheels on the side of the road bucket, if we extend the platform miles to the front we may even be able to make it go round corners, and the up on two wheels thing is great fun.

[koba]

Haha I prefer.... 'Exhilerating' :D

Show us a fota!

[Henk]

Bloody entertaining today. Six starters, all finished race one and five started and finished race two. Conditions could have been better, had to take a completely different approach to swinging today, forget about keeping the chair wheel on the deck and concentrate on trying to get SOME drive to the rear wheel, bloody hilarious as always.

[ac3_snow]

Show us a fota!

I don't have any but I am sure there will be some posted soon, I believe there my be a video floating around somewhere too :eek:

Very impressed with Pumba's rig first time out and went bloody well!

[cotswold]

I don't have any but I am sure there will be some posted soon, I believe there my be a video floating around somewhere too :eek:

Very impressed with Pumba's rig first time out and went bloody well!

Stole the video for you

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=447324782032508&set=vb.100002649700984&type=2&theater

[racer40]

Had great fun out with the sidecars today, so good to see 6 there, wont be long till we see more i think after the specticle the guys & girls put on today. special thanks to Wildman ( warren ) who even though he didnt have his rig there, was helping all the other crews stay mobile

[wildman]

Was cool watching the sidecars running today, you guys and girls put on a good show.Good to see Pumba there with his rig&nbsp;[ what was the beer telly for your swinger] and is there a beer rule for doing doughnuts on the track during a race? [twice in the same place Gazzza] Des had a few strange expressions on his face when his rig wouldn't go left at the end of the straight and credit to your swinger, she might be small in stature but she hung in there. Looks like the class is going to be dominated by diesel engines and who needs an fxr engine when you have a mighty LONCIN. And for out right bravery [or stupidity] Brian and partner your rig aint pretty and it aint the fastest but you entertained everyone the most AWSOME. well back off to my cave have to get the two stroker going for next time and fly the flag against the diesels<br><br><img class="inlineimg" title="popcorn" border="0" alt="" src="images/smilies/popcorn.gif" smilieid="129">

[Pumba]

What a day. For its first outing I can only conclude that today was a success; however there is still plenty of development (read fixing shit) to be done.

Personally I don't have a lot more to say at this stage as I am just waiting for some action pictures from out on the track

Big thanks the Cameil for jumping on the side (I think our spannering style fits well together) and to Rick for puncture repair kit (yea turns out 10 year old + tubes didn't appreciate my riding), and of course Henk for actually making the kit work.

[Henk]

I guess I will start the bets on how reliable this one is:

You will turn up on saturday with just a couple of things left to cable tie up proclaiming that it ran great up the driveway when you tried it.

It will start and run for a few minutes but half way into your first lap it will start missing and you won't have a fucking clue why.

Then you realise that a jet has fallen out and your choke is not the sidecar model and the fuel pump is pumping backwards and you will fix all of those things.

It will start running rough again 3 laps in and you really have no clue now so Henk and Rick come over and help. After 2 hours of dicking around you trace it back to a fucked CDI and Henk grabs one out of the van and throws it in and it is running again.

Next run things are going good until the 5th lap when one of the wheels falls off.

You carry it to pits and refit the wheel, suit up and sit on it and your swinger realises the engine mounts are all cracked.

You go home defeated and saddened.

Repeat for every bucket meet until the end of time.

:laugh:


Race one six starters six finishers
Race two five starters five finishers.

Your track record as an oracle has just taken a hit. One flat tyre was the only real issue of the day, of course it could just have easily gone horribly wrong all over the place. I do think we are asking a bit much of these little engines at times.

[seymour14]

Sounds like you all had plenty of fun, jealous big time!!!

Maybe this year will be the year of the rigs? Sure hope so. :drool:

[Pumba]

Come on VIDEOS & PHOTOS!! Who has them :cool:

[Moooools]

Race one six starters six finishers
Race two five starters five finishers.

Your track record as an oracle has just taken a hit. One flat tyre was the only real issue of the day, of course it could just have easily gone horribly wrong all over the place. I do think we are asking a bit much of these little engines at times.

Well shit. And I had such a good track record too.

I am impressed with the turnout and finishing rate. Sounds like good racing.

[Gazzza]

Well an excellent weekend, great racing considering the weather. Great to see three new rigs out there. Well done young Brian and Mel for showing how much fun can be had by just welding on a third wheel. I want to add my thanks to Warren also for all the pit work, and Chris for geeing us all up, to put on a show. I'm sure Carl and Des will able to take the run on Sunday and come out strong next outing, all of the rigs take a few races to fettle in. One thing that did surprise me was how the rain made it more fun, slicks or no slicks...
Hope to see every one next round plus the welcome return of Wazzas rig :)

[Pumba]

Jebus still no photos from the weekend. DISAPPOINTING!!!

Anyway finally got back out in the shed tonight to have a look as the chair and undertake a damage assessment from the weekend.

Knowing that rear tube had a hole, I but the frame up on blocks and pulled all the wheels off. Turns out I may have not put the front end together properly as there had been some rubbing on the brake carrier.

285166 285167 285165

So I need to figure out what I did wrong there. Bearing don't look or feel to bad, but I might change them anyway. Might look at bracing the front forks as well, as it may get rid of the "LITTLE" wobble I was experiencing.

When I bulled the tire off the rear I found a hole in the tube pretty fast. Pretty sure there was on old patch on the hole that had turned to paper. Wasn't all that big and we probably could have pumped it up for the last race and gotten away with it. Oh well.

I would love to hear anyone's opinions on what size tyres I could squeeze onto the rims. It currently has 145/R10 front and rear on the RV90 rims. Through my research I think the RV standard had 6.7x10 tires, which equates to about a 165 or 170 width tyre. Does this sound right? As I think all my options for some sticky rubber are in the range of 150 - 165. I can get some new 145 rubber, but they are designed for small car trailers, cant imagine grip is a priority there.

The side wheel is, well not a major but could really do with some attention. Fist off the rim is steel and HEAVY. Not a major issue but I might see what I can do about that. Secondly the tire that is on is OLD. I mean really old. Anyone remember when Dunlop stopped making tires here in NZ? Because this one has mad in NZ proudly stamped all over it. A Dunlop Motorway in size 5.20-10.

Oh and need to sort out my chain. I had a look at the block I cable tied on after the first practise and yes there was definitely some contact.

285168

[Kickaha]

I would love to hear anyone's opinions on what size tyres I could squeeze onto the rims. It currently has 145/R10 front and rear on the RV90 rims. Through my research I think the RV standard had 6.7x10 tires, which equates to about a 165 or 170 width tyre. Does this sound right? As I think all my options for some sticky rubber are in the range of 150 - 165. I can get some new 145 rubber, but they are designed for small car trailers, cant imagine grip is a priority there.
145R10 is stock Mini size and available but not in anything sticky, Yokohama 165/70/10 A032R is available for about $150each


The side wheel is, well not a major but could really do with some attention. Fist off the rim is steel and HEAVY. Not a major issue but I might see what I can do about that. Secondly the tire that is on is OLD. I mean really old. Anyone remember when Dunlop stopped making tires here in NZ? Because this one has mad in NZ proudly stamped all over it. A Dunlop Motorway in size 5.20-10.

Cross ply production stopped around 20 years ago

[wildman]

I would love to hear anyone's opinions on what size tyres I could squeeze onto the rims. It currently has 145/R10 front and rear on the RV90 rims. Through my research I think the RV standard had 6.7x10 tires, which equates to about a 165 or 170 width tyre. Does this sound right? As I think all my options for some sticky rubber are in the range of 150 - 165. I can get some new 145 rubber, but they are designed for small car trailers, cant imagine grip is a priority there.

Hey Pumba my one runs 145 x 70 front and side and 165 x70 rear [ crossplys ] Front one still is hardly worn but rear is nearly a slick. Speedpro said they tried all types of tyres on mine including slicks but the crossplys worked best. You could try a mini slick on the rear which is what Des had on his although it didn't seem to be of much use. I think Kickaha was right with the Yokohama as that's what i will put on the rear of mine next. Should be back out with mine for August, working on a water-cooled head for the tf motor but not sure if it will be ready by then, might still be running the aircooled motor and hopefully don't destroy another p[iston and barrel.

[Kickaha]

Hey Pumba my one runs 145 x 70 front and side and 165 x70 rear [ crossplys ]
With those marking they shouldn't be cross plys


You could try a mini slick on the rear which is what Des had on his although it didn't seem to be of much use.

The mini slick should be on a 6 inch wide rim if you want the optimum rim size, 5 inch minimum

[Moooools]

I would love to hear anyone's opinions on what size tyres I could squeeze onto the rims. It currently has 145/R10 front and rear on the RV90 rims. Through my research I think the RV standard had 6.7x10 tires, which equates to about a 165 or 170 width tyre. Does this sound right? As I think all my options for some sticky rubber are in the range of 150 - 165. I can get some new 145 rubber, but they are designed for small car trailers, cant imagine grip is a priority there.

Hey Pumba my one runs 145 x 70 front and side and 165 x70 rear [ crossplys ] Front one still is hardly worn but rear is nearly a slick. Speedpro said they tried all types of tyres on mine including slicks but the crossplys worked best. You could try a mini slick on the rear which is what Des had on his although it didn't seem to be of much use. I think Kickaha was right with the Yokohama as that's what i will put on the rear of mine next. Should be back out with mine for August, working on a water-cooled head for the tf motor but not sure if it will be ready by then, might still be running the aircooled motor and hopefully don't destroy another p[iston and barrel.

Hoosier R25B 6x10" sounds like it should get on there. Come in an 18"OD or a 19.5" OD. They are a damn good tyre and designed to be run at low speeds as they are a Formula SAE tyre. Quite a low cornering stiffness so easy to control and good will love some sideways action. You can get them through Cardwells Racing supplies. They also do a 7.5" wide which would probably be better for the sidecars due to the weight of the rigs when fully laden. But that depends on how wide your rims are really. It is better to have your rim an inch wider than the tyre than an inch narrower with these tyres.

http://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm

[Gazzza]

I have a RV 90 rolling frame I had hopes of turning into another rig, when I was looking at tires a cheap option was a Duro multi purpose one, it won't be in the same league as the ones mentioned above but maybe a cheaper option and better than what you have now, there was also an AMS sand tire which was virtually smooth and a soft compound. I'm trying a few things with the blue rig at the moment, made up a leading link front end that I might try at the next race day. If we manage to get in some fine weather and have the same sort of turn out as last time should be another great day of chair action.

[Pumba]

145R10 is stock Mini size and available but not in anything sticky, Yokohama 165/70/10 A032R is available for about $150each


The mini slick should be on a 6 inch wide rim if you want the optimum rim size, 5 inch minimum


Hoosier R25B 6x10" sounds like it should get on there..........


.....there was also an AMS sand tire which was virtually smooth and a soft compound.......

Cheers all sort of confirmed what I was already thinking. I was already looking at the Yokohama as a new tire option. Mooools interesting info on the Hoosier slick. I am a bit afraid to ask what the cost may be based on the price list I found on the US site. Gazzza I also found the info on the AMS tire and agree it looked like an option. Didnt look that hard at where one cold get one though.


Cross ply production stopped around 20 years ago

Not surprised at all. I would imagine this tire was old when that happened. I found a part number on the rim that dates it back to the 1960's or 70's.

What are peoples thoughts on the side wheel? My feeling is for what we are doing it is not going to make a huge difference if there is a 25 year old cross ply, or something more modern. Side wheel is stock mini 3.5x10, so my option will be real limited anyway.

Also found a spacer for my left overs container that seems to fit the front wheel nicely, so after cleaning up all the burred metal faces, and giving the disk a tickle up with the flapper disks on the grinder and then giving it some treatment on the concrete drive, as well as the pads (first dirty marks on the new drive, strangely satisfying that was), I think I have solved that issue and probably made the front end a bit stifffer as well.

[Drew]

What are peoples thoughts on the side wheel? My feeling is for what we are doing it is not going to make a huge difference if there is a 25 year old cross ply, or something more modern. Side wheel is stock mini 3.5x10, so my option will be real limited anyway.



Oh, i makes a difference alright. Dunno about on a bucket, but the chair wheel is taking insane pressure on right hand turns on a full size.

Something with a nice stiff sidewall, and plenty of grip. Don't go too wide though, the drag Will just slow you down.

[Kickaha]

Something with a nice stiff sidewall, and plenty of grip. Don't go too wide though, the drag Will just slow you down.
To much grip on the side can promote understeer on rights, although pumping up the tyre more can fix that

[Moooools]

To much grip on the side can promote understeer on rights, although pumping up the tyre more can fix that

Or move the wheel forward. That would probably take care of it.

I think trying to decrease the grip available of a loaded tyre to cure understeer is a pretty silly notion. You aren't gaining that grip back anywhere, you are just losing overall grip.

I do often wonder what geometry I would go for if I built a chair. And the conclusion I am at is that I would go for a 33:33:33 weight distribution in right handers and a 50:50:0 in left handers (No weight on sidecar wheel). So the centre of gravity of pilot, swinger and rig would be directly in the middle of the two main wheels (longitudinally) and the the sidecar wheel would be half way between the front and rear wheel. This way the sidecar wheel wouldn't contribute to yaw moments (That is what causes understeer or oversteer) and would take its share of the weight around right handers which would maximise overall grip (It would also ensure all tyres want the same slip angle as they are under the same load. As a consequence the steering inputs and yaw rates would be equal left to right which would give a balanced feel. Although it would still have higher corner speed on right handers due to better load distribution across the tyres.

I would absolutely use kart wheels because they are light and cheap. There is no point adding yaw inertia for no reason with big wheels. Suspension on all 3 corners, not for the track surface, but to achieve some camber gain in corners. In simple terms this stops the tyre from wanting to roll out from under the rim. And some good caster on the front wheel. Again this gains some camber on turn in and through the corner.

Track width would be maximum and wheelbase would be minimum to decrease load transfer to/from the sidecar wheel and decrease yaw inertia and yaw damping respectively.

And aero. As much downforce as the little engine will push. Around mount welly where the straights may as well be part of a double apex corner I think you could get away with heaps.

This is all just my own musings and I may be missing half of the plot with not having actually driven one of these things. I have had a swing but was far too busy holding on to worry about the dynamics of it.

Some tyre stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_angle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_load_sensitivity

[chrisc]

Posted some chair photos from the weekend in my photo thread:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/153656-Chris-Bucket-photo-thread-Bandwidth-warning?p=1130583865#post1130583865

[Kickaha]

I think trying to decrease the grip available of a loaded tyre to cure understeer is a pretty silly notion. You aren't gaining that grip back anywhere, you are just losing overall grip.


Oh fuck I wonder if everyone racing a sidecar everywhere in the world knows they're getting it wrong

[Moooools]

Oh fuck I wonder if everyone racing a sidecar everywhere in the world knows they're getting it wrong

Just talking about buckets here.

I don't know the rules for full sized chairs and they would have a rearward weight bias and a need for stability at high speed and longitudinal acceleration. But a bucket chair works under different conditions, and some rule of thumb, while I think it would work, is not necessarily the best option. If you have the option of A: Reducing understeer by decreasing overall grip. or B: Changing the design so that it does not understeer and retain the same amount of grip. Which would you choose?

There is no need to have the sidecar wheel behind the centre of gravity on a bucket chair, so why do it? Why throw grip away on over inflated tyres.

I could draw you a picture if you like.

[Rick 52]

the the sidecar wheel would be half way between the front and rear wheel. This way the sidecar wheel wouldn't contribute to yaw moments ..

Lots of rules to read before you start your build Moooooools ..

[Moooools]

the the sidecar wheel would be half way between the front and rear wheel. This way the sidecar wheel wouldn't contribute to yaw moments ..

Lots of rules to read before you start your build Moooooools ..

I have done my reading.
That is within rules.

...The sidecar wheel axle shall be between the rear wheel axle and the middle point of the wheelbase.

Also there are a grand total of 7 rules regarding bucket sidecars. Sweet fuck all.

[wildman]

Hey Pumba love your thread. We must be real racers now with terms like yaw and understeer and people worried about side grip and weight distribution.
Funny thing is the sidecar that's still dominating was welded together on a concrete floor without a jig and and receieved negative comments about it on another thread and it runs an underpowered chinese engine. Either the original builder struck the right formula for building a bucket sidecar from years of experience or the rider and swinger on that one are just to good for the rest of us.:killingme:killingme

[Drew]

Just talking about buckets here.

I don't know the rules for full sized chairs and they would have a rearward weight bias and a need for stability at high speed and longitudinal acceleration. But a bucket chair works under different conditions, and some rule of thumb, while I think it would work, is not necessarily the best option. If you have the option of A: Reducing understeer by decreasing overall grip. or B: Changing the design so that it does not understeer and retain the same amount of grip. Which would you choose?

There is no need to have the sidecar wheel behind the centre of gravity on a bucket chair, so why do it? Why throw grip away on over inflated tyres.

I could draw you a picture if you like.A certain amount of slide, is quite optimal from the rear and chair wheels on a sidecar. You are riding scaled down versions of what we ride, I would think that would remain constant.

Trying to power out of a right hand turn, the chair wheel is fighting the front. You can toe it in to all fuck to combat this, but that creates drag and slows you down on the straight. To combat this, some negative camber helps, but doesn't completely sort the issue. It can also upset things in braking for the turn.

On a short chair, which is what you are sorta working with, slide it into a right and slide it out of a left.




Hey Pumba love your thread. We must be real racers now with terms like yaw and understeer and people worried about side grip and weight distribution.
Funny thing is the sidecar that's still dominating was welded together on a concrete floor without a jig and and receieved negative comments about it on another thread and it runs an underpowered chinese engine. Either the original builder struck the right formula for building a bucket sidecar from years of experience or the rider and swinger on that one are just to good for the rest of us.:killingme:killingme Easy to fall into this trap. Andy (Scrivy) and Steve (Sidecarbob) are several times NZ1 on sidecars. They're chair is inferior to many out there, and nearly all the long chairs. Yet there it was, a huge 1 on the front of the bike.

The riders can make more of a difference on an uncompetitive chair, than is the case with solo bikes.

[Pumba]

Hey Pumba love your thread. We must be real racers now with terms like yaw and understeer and people worried about side grip and weight distribution.
Funny thing is the sidecar that's still dominating was welded together on a concrete floor without a jig and and receieved negative comments about it on another thread and it runs an underpowered chinese engine. Either the original builder struck the right formula for building a bucket sidecar from years of experience or the rider and swinger on that one are just to good for the rest of us.:killingme:killingme

Hahaha Warren, my Mrs would say it is more about me over analysing everything and being an anal prick. My interpretation of it is wanting as much opinion and fact that I can muster before spending as little as possible to get maximum result (tight I am).

Not sure if the formula for that particular chair is just that good, the only thing I do know is that the rider and swing are competitive pricks, and a little mad to boot.

[wildman]

Hey Pumba got another idea, we should weigh our rigs and use which ever is heavier as a minimum weight rule. That'll slow them down. My mate still bags me for selling that rig doh doh.

[Kickaha]

Yet there it was, a huge 1 on the front of the bike.

There shouldn't be,it should be on Spikes :bleh:

Yes they did a great job of beating so caller superior chairs but only up to the point the guy on the long chair learnt to ride it properly, then barring mechanical failure it was winning and breaking lap records every time it went out

[Drew]

There shouldn't be,it should be on Spikes

Not now. I mean back when they were winning.

[Moooools]

A certain amount of slide, is quite optimal from the rear and chair wheels on a sidecar. You are riding scaled down versions of what we ride, I would think that would remain constant.

Trying to power out of a right hand turn, the chair wheel is fighting the front. You can toe it in to all fuck to combat this, but that creates drag and slows you down on the straight. To combat this, some negative camber helps, but doesn't completely sort the issue. It can also upset things in braking for the turn.

On a short chair, which is what you are sorta working with, slide it into a right and slide it out of a left.


Sliding to an extent can be good for a number of reasons. One is to induce an increased slip angle in the rear tyres, and will result in the lateral grip being higher provided that the tyre wants all that slip angle, and the other is to counteract anti-yaw moments and this understeer.

The easiest way to think about this is that the chair has to both move around the corner in an arc, and rotate however many degrees at the same time say 180* for a hairpin. These are separate events (although they affect each other). When you enter a corner the front wheel leads with a force (because you steer it in) and this starts to turn the rig faster and faster. By mid corner the rear tyre has caught up (it always does) and is producing the same amount of force as the rear then the rig is rotating at a constant speed. And then the pilot removes his steering input and the rear tyre is providing more force than the front so the rig decreases it's speed of rotation. This is all just a moment balance game. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)

So the phenomenon of understeer is the front tyre doing not enough work or the rear doing too much, which means the rig will not rotate quickly enough to sustain adequate slip angle on the tyres. And oversteer is the exact opposite.

I have yet to mention the sidecar wheel in all this. Simply put it will just act like a front or rear wheel depending on whether it is in front or behind the centre of gravity of the rig. If the wheel is right at the rear axle you should find that the vehicle has very little understeer on turn in but lots of it mid corner. As you move it forward this understeer decreases until the wheel is inline with the CoG. At this point if the tyre produces any lateral force it acts directly through the centre of gravity and as such cannot rotate the rig. So it effectively has no effect on oversteer or understeer of the rig but can still contribute fully to lateral accelerations.

Taking this a bit further, the sidecar wheel will now have too much slip angle mid corner. However there are no rules against steering the sidecar wheel on a bucket so you may as well link it up to steer a small percentage of the front wheel.

[Grumph]

IMO you're overthinking this - and in the wrong direction too. On a kart track, on Kart wheels and tyres,look at karts for your chassis inspiration.
No suspension - chassis flex takes care of the contact patch movement quite happily, and kart tyres are designed for this.... Sidecar wheel placement is the ruling factor in how a chair turns for a given COG placement,and i don't see this changing.
The swinger has more of an effect on transitional behavior too - all the guff you've been posting relates to a steady state model with stationary weights on board...If the bloody swinger scratches his arse at the wrong time, you're history...

[Drew]

Sliding to an extent can be good for a number of reasons. One is to induce an increased slip angle in the rear tyres, and will result in the lateral grip being higher provided that the tyre wants all that slip angle, and the other is to counteract anti-yaw moments and this understeer.

The easiest way to think about this is that the chair has to both move around the corner in an arc, and rotate however many degrees at the same time say 180* for a hairpin. These are separate events (although they affect each other). When you enter a corner the front wheel leads with a force (because you steer it in) and this starts to turn the rig faster and faster. By mid corner the rear tyre has caught up (it always does) and is producing the same amount of force as the rear then the rig is rotating at a constant speed. And then the pilot removes his steering input and the rear tyre is providing more force than the front so the rig decreases it's speed of rotation. This is all just a moment balance game. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)

So the phenomenon of understeer is the front tyre doing not enough work or the rear doing too much, which means the rig will not rotate quickly enough to sustain adequate slip angle on the tyres. And oversteer is the exact opposite.

I have yet to mention the sidecar wheel in all this. Simply put it will just act like a front or rear wheel depending on whether it is in front or behind the centre of gravity of the rig. If the wheel is right at the rear axle you should find that the vehicle has very little understeer on turn in but lots of it mid corner. As you move it forward this understeer decreases until the wheel is inline with the CoG. At this point if the tyre produces any lateral force it acts directly through the centre of gravity and as such cannot rotate the rig. So it effectively has no effect on oversteer or understeer of the rig but can still contribute fully to lateral accelerations.

Taking this a bit further, the sidecar wheel will now have too much slip angle mid corner. However there are no rules against steering the sidecar wheel on a bucket so you may as well link it up to steer a small percentage of the front wheel.You've obviously got it all figured out better than the guys we have taken inspiration from, in the building of our full sized chair.

I'll leave you to it.;)

[Kickaha]

IMO you're overthinking this
I think he must be University educated

The swinger has more of an effect on transitional behavior too - all the guff you've been posting relates to a steady state model with stationary weights on board...If the bloody swinger scratches his arse at the wrong time, you're history...
I agree with what the old codger sez

[Moooools]

IMO you're overthinking this - and in the wrong direction too. On a kart track, on Kart wheels and tyres,look at karts for your chassis inspiration.
No suspension - chassis flex takes care of the contact patch movement quite happily, and kart tyres are designed for this.... Sidecar wheel placement is the ruling factor in how a chair turns for a given COG placement,and i don't see this changing.
The swinger has more of an effect on transitional behavior too - all the guff you've been posting relates to a steady state model with stationary weights on board...If the bloody swinger scratches his arse at the wrong time, you're history...

Yeah good idea. How about we take this 4 wheel vehicle that is built to a very specific set of rules and about half the weight, and just copy the damn thing because ,hey, we are running the same track and wheels. As stated the suspension has nothing to do with contact patch movement, and everything to do with tyre control.
That is truly the worst form of engineering. The vehicles have so little in common it is a joke.

I don't even think you read what I wrote, or if you did you don't know the meaning of steady state. The model is for a transient vehicle and works on the swinger and pilot having two distinct positions, one to the right and one to the left. I will agree that that may miss some of the picture, but it is a better picture than the "well he did it so I will too" approach.

That whole block of shit I wrote said exactly what you said. That sidecar wheel affects how the chair turns. I am glad we are in agreement there. I just don't agree that where people are running them is the best place in a bucket.

[Moooools]

You've obviously got it all figured out better than the guys we have taken inspiration from, in the building of our full sized chair.

I'll leave you to it.;)

Yep. I am sure am glad I haven't told you already that I am referring to bucket sidecars here, and explained why I thought there was a difference. Otherwise your point would seem invalid.

[Moooools]

I think he must be University educated

I agree with what the old codger sez

Ahhhhh. The old 'university educated'. Too much thinking and not enough doing.
I would say 'University educated' is a stretch for me. Although I am at Uni I spend most of my time on this:

https://www.facebook.com/UoAfsae
www.fsae.co.nz

Which is where I learnt most of what I am going on about.
We design and build a new one each year and and race it over in Aus. And do all of our testing at Mt Wellington.
I can't say I appreciate most of the rubbish that university itself teaches but it is good for the bit of paper at the end.

But if by 'university educated' you mean 'Doesn't just look at someones work and assume they had it right, and tries to correlate real world outcomes to the physics that govern them' then yes. Yes I am.

[Moooools]

Holy shitstorm Batman. :facepalm:

Who would have thought people wouldn't like being told I think they are wrong?

[Drew]

Yep. I am sure am glad I haven't told you already that I am referring to bucket sidecars here, and explained why I thought there was a difference. Otherwise your point would seem invalid.

The further forward you put the chair wheel ya condescending twit, the more it fights the front wheel when turning right. Do you get that? It is not allowed to turn with the steering. So it's direction is fixed.

Put it right in the middle, and when you turn it is being dragged across the road surface.

[Moooools]

The further forward you put the chair wheel ya condescending twit, the more it fights the front wheel when turning right. Do you get that? It is not allowed to turn with the steering. So it's direction is fixed.

Put it right in the middle, and when you turn it is being dragged across the road surface.

It is not allowed to turn with the steering? In buckets it is. I don't know about your full sized rules.

I do see what you are saying but you are assuming that the Yaw axis is at the rear wheel. Which it only is for initial turn in. Mid corner the rig will turn about its centre of gravity. And initially there is fuck all load on the chair wheel at turn in. I would rather have it working correctly when there is the most load on it, right in the middle of the corner.

[Grumph]

It is not allowed to turn with the steering? In buckets it is. I don't know about your full sized rules.

I do see what you are saying but you are assuming that the Yaw axis is at the rear wheel. Which it only is for initial turn in. Mid corner the rig will turn about its centre of gravity. And initially there is fuck all load on the chair wheel at turn in. I would rather have it working correctly when there is the most load on it, right in the middle of the corner.

Oh great, he's read the rules....If he ever gets it finished with a steerable sidecar wheel, would someone please video the ensuing shitstorm for the benefit of those of us who can't be there...thanks.

Carry on, never let it be said i discouraged anyone...

[Kickaha]

Oh great, he's read the rules....If he ever gets it finished with a steerable sidecar wheel, would someone please video the ensuing shitstorm for the benefit of those of us who can't be there...thanks.

Carry on, never let it be said i discouraged anyone...

Full size rules specifically state it must be steered only by the front wheels, buckets dont have that rule

The Seymaz had sidecar steering back in the seventies when it was allowed

[Grumph]

Full size rules specifically state it must be steered only by the front wheels, buckets dont have that rule

The Seymaz had sidecar steering back in the seventies when it was allowed

I know - i too can read the rules - and i've got a pretty good drawing of the Seymaz layout too.

In this case i suspect polling the class competitors prior to cutting metal may be a good move. I don't want to do a husaberg with rule interpretations but i'd be surprised if the others in the class were happy to let it run.

[Henk]

The others in the class are pretty relaxed at the moment, I had thought that side wheel steering was out but mools is right, nothing said in the bucket rules where it is disallowed in the full size variants. To be honest at the moment there isn't that much of an arms race going on, just getting numbers on track is a bonus, I guess when things hot up at the front this will change, at the moment I think most of the teams out there are still getting their heads around how to ride the smaller rigs and getting them set up so they work close enough and are able to finish a meeting without falling to bits.

[Drew]

Is anyone running a long bike in bucket chairs? I've got an idea for my GL motor.

[Kickaha]

Is anyone running a long bike in bucket chairs? I've got an idea for my GL motor.

Mike Green built or raced one, not sure if it's still about

[Drew]

Mike Green built or raced one, not sure if it's still aboutWeight is the killer I'd think, but it'd make it easier to get the rider weight lower. Gotta be killing their left hand cornering ability with the riders sitting so high, and the bike weighing so little.

[Gazzza]

Hey guys to try and take a bit of heat out of this thread just a quick recap on last race day, the rig which garned the most interest, the rider who had the most thrills and pats on the back was young Brian, do you think he was seriously worried about steerable chair wheels, or yaw and pitch? He built a rig and got his arse on the track, so to break it down there are two types of people in the world, A: Those who ride / and or build a bucket rig and make it to the track
B: Those who don't

You all seem to have really great ideas and technical know how, build something and show us how it should be done.
Like Henk said we just want bums on chairs and to make 8 laps with out subjecting our swingers to the joy of pushing a rig from the far end of the track, that's it.
This should be the year bucket sidecars come back from the dead, I hope to see you all on the track :)

[Kickaha]

so to break it down there are two types of people in the world,
A: Those who ride / and or build a bucket rig and make it to the track
B: Those who don't

You forgot C: Those who have one leaning up against the back fence behind the Ute going rusty

[Henk]

Is anyone running a long bike in bucket chairs? I've got an idea for my GL motor.

If by long bike you mean the engine is behind the rider, Brenton's Chris's and ours are all long bikes. Pumba and Des have short bikes and Brian has a complete AX100 with a third wheel welded on.

[Drew]

A: Those who ride / and or build a bucket rig and make it to the track
B: Those who don't

You all seem to have really great ideas and technical know how, build something and show us how it should be done.
Like Henk said we just want bums on chairs and to make 8 laps with out subjecting our swingers to the joy of pushing a rig from the far end of the track, that's it.
This should be the year bucket sidecars come back from the dead, I hope to see you all on the track :)Or "D". Those who have rebuilt a full size chair from the ground up.

I'm of two minds as to weather I should finish the solo bucket, that I have lost interest in riding, or build a chair. Probably neither, seems the bucketeer attitude spans all the disciplines.



If by long bike you mean the engine is behind the rider, Brenton's Chris's and ours are all long bikes. Pumba and Des have short bikes and Brian has a complete AX100 with a third wheel welded on.Do you run a gantry style chassis that you sit beside, or do you straddle the frame?

[Henk]

Straddle the frame.

If you were going to go down the bucket sidecar route you might want to talk to the guys at Kaitoke first, the only place these have run regularly in the past 12 months is Auckland with a few rides at the NI meets. Long way for you to travel

[Drew]

Straddle the frame.

If you were going to go down the bucket sidecar route you might want to talk to the guys at Kaitoke first, the only place these have run regularly in the past 12 months is Auckland with a few rides at the NI meets. Long way for you to travelYeah. I've got a place it could live up there, and the wife and I come up a bit. I know of another bucket sidecar down here though, even powered GL styles if memory serves. But it'd take as long to tidy it up, as it would for Alan and me to build one from the floor I expect.

Manawatu roosters got some that show up from time to time don't they?

Anyhoo, back to Pumba's outfit.

If you can get your head closer to the front wheel, without having to hug the carb and head, the bike will be HEAPS more stable to the left. And less prone to understeer out of rights as well.

[Henk]

The Griffiths rig has been dragged to Taumarunui and Tokoroa. Those and Ye Puke are about the only away tracks we can drag them along to. To be honest they are a bit of a sideshow there since everyone involved is also racing solos. Brenton's rig and ours was at Te Puke as well.

[wildman]

Weight is the killer I'd think, but it'd make it easier to get the rider weight lower. Gotta be killing their left hand cornering ability with the riders sitting so high, and the bike weighing so little.

Iguess mine would be called a true long bike, it's the one Mike Green raced, built from lcr drawings. Central main frame which you kneel to the right of. Hub centre steering and five link rear end, koni shocks and runs mini rims. It's over twenty years old, would have to have been the most costly and sophisticated Bucket sidecar built doesn't mean it was the best though. Should be out at Mt Welly again for August meeting, just have to stop breaking it every time i use it. Will try and get some current photos of it on here over weekend.

[Pumba]

....Anyhoo, back to Pumba's outfit.

If you can get your head closer to the front wheel, without having to hug the carb and head, the bike will be HEAPS more stable to the left. And less prone to understeer out of rights as well.

About bloody time. Yea I think I will rig up something simple for the next meet so I dont plug the carb with my gut. I may have to look at lowering the bars as well to be able to get lower.

[speedpro]

Initially I swung on ours with my brother driving. Later I brought it to Auckland and ended up driving with a few different passengers. One of the first mods I did was move the sidecar wheel back about 100mm. I did it because as has been pointed out, when you turn the rig, either way, the further forward the sidecar wheel is the more it is slid sideways. This has the effect of resisting turning. Turning right the technique was to get weight over the front to reduce understeer and also to unweight the rear wheel allowing it to slip which allowed the chair to turn easier. The added benefit was that if it was unweighted enough it could be spun up exiting corners and acted a bit like slipping the clutch. The swinger had to be careful not to just drop back and down on the exit or it could bog down as the wheelspin was stopped. Turning left it was again a matter of getting forward though this time rather than being on top of the driver the passenger stretched forward beside the driver. This unloaded the sidecar wheel allowing it to scrub sideways which allowed the sidecar to turn again. The trick was to balance the chair with 0 weight on the sidecar wheel. As has been said, if the passenger scratched his arse at the wrong time . . . . .
I found the passenger was the most important part of the package when turning. If the rear was sliding you had to move back. if it wasn't steering you had to go forward. Your weight had to be in whatever place was required to unload whichever wheel and also to balance the grip front to rear. Once Doug and I got familiar with riding together it was magic. Each knew what the other was going to do and knew what to expect from the chair.
I've been talking to my son about building one. He seems keen. Just need to finish off a few other projects.

[Drew]

About bloody time. Yea I think I will rig up something simple for the next meet so I dont plug the carb with my gut. I may have to look at lowering the bars as well to be able to get lower.P'raps the carb could be mounted on a manifold, to point the inlet out the side?

What's the motor, and have you done any oil pickup/sump mods? Can it be tilted forward to free up some...erm...lower chest space?

On a full size, the swinger makes up a smaller percentage of the total mass. So they're control over it all is lessened. We have to try and get the balance very close to the magic window before the green flag. On smaller chairs, I imagine you can move further from said window and compensate effectively without losing performance.

So you can mount the motor in a position we would consider too close to the front wheel, without adding time to a lap.

Hmmm, it's all quite cool and interesting. Wish I didn't have so many projects on the go, I could get started on a chair tomorrow since the engineers haven't been to OK the building I'm working in...on it's seismic strengthening project.:lol:

[Drew]

Iguess mine would be called a true long bike, it's the one Mike Green raced, built from lcr drawings. Central main frame which you kneel to the right of. Hub centre steering and five link rear end, koni shocks and runs mini rims. It's over twenty years old, would have to have been the most costly and sophisticated Bucket sidecar built doesn't mean it was the best though. Should be out at Mt Welly again for August meeting, just have to stop breaking it every time i use it. Will try and get some current photos of it on here over weekend.Steel gantry type chassis runs down your left I gather? It'd be cool, but an aluminium monocoque is getting ridiculous for a bucket....I hope.

[Henk]

Steel gantry type chassis runs down your left I gather? It'd be cool, but an aluminium monocoque is getting ridiculous for a bucket....I hope.

There is one being built at the moment that you may consider ridiculous then, not sure if it's Ali monocoque but the design intent is for it to be a scaled down version of the Lawrence long bike.

[speedpro]

Alloy monococque wouldn't be too much I reckon. But then I know a friendly engineer with lots of sheetmetal tools. I've always thought a simple tubular main spar with sheetmetal bracketry. The so-called pancake bucket sidecars used to have about a 100mm diameter tube which the driver straddled. I'm thinking about a larger diameter tube rolled from sheet, say about 200-250mm dia. Where anything is bolted to it there would be a section of heavier gauge rolled section fitted inside. The fasteners would penetrate the main spar and screw into the smaller inner section clamping onto the main spar. I thought to bolt it up to make repairs and modification easier plus it would reduce the risk of ripping a section of main spar off with the clamping load spread out. The other option is to roll a heavier gauge section to fasten with rivets to the outside, which has brackets welded to it.

[Moooools]

You all seem to have really great ideas and technical know how, build something and show us how it should be done.
Like Henk said we just want bums on chairs and to make 8 laps with out subjecting our swingers to the joy of pushing a rig from the far end of the track, that's it.
This should be the year bucket sidecars come back from the dead, I hope to see you all on the track :)

I would absolutely love to build one. I have a spare FXR engine and access to a full workshop. I just don't get time and end up playing racecar far too much so I thought I would leave my musings which inadvertently started a shit storm. My apologies.



Also on the monocoque thing why not carbon fibre? Just make a big flat sheet that folds up to the right shape with aluminium bungs where things get bolted in. No harder than ali just a little bit more expensive.

[Drew]

Also on the monocoque thing why not carbon fibre? Just make a big flat sheet that folds up to the right shape with aluminium bungs where things get bolted in. No harder than ali just a little bit more expensive.

It's been done for a full size long bike overseas. Mr LCR himself is reported to have gone over to have a look. He was then heard to say, "It's very pretty, but not necessary". Or words to that effect.

[koba]

I'm thinking about a larger diameter tube rolled from sheet, say about 200-250mm dia. Where anything is bolted to it there would be a section of heavier gauge rolled section fitted inside.

I was thinking along similar lines, kind of like how an old Volkswagen Chassis is constructed in my mind, although implementing that in a sidecar would end up with something totally different.

The Griffiths one is built out of old driveshafts.

[Kickaha]

It's been done for a full size long bike overseas. Mr LCR himself is reported to have gone over to have a look. He was then heard to say, "It's very pretty, but not necessary". Or words to that effect.

Windle built 3 ( I think) Alloy is more fixable, crash a carbon fibre one and you throw away the whole tub, alloy one you just replace the munted section

Basically harder to build, more expensive to fix and harder to repair

[swarfie]

Cheers all sort of confirmed what I was already thinking. I was already looking at the Yokohama as a new tire option. Mooools interesting info on the Hoosier slick. I am a bit afraid to ask what the cost may be based on the price list I found on the US site. Gazzza I also found the info on the AMS tire and agree it looked like an option. Didnt look that hard at where one cold get one though.



Not surprised at all. I would imagine this tire was old when that happened. I found a part number on the rim that dates it back to the 1960's or 70's.

What are peoples thoughts on the side wheel? My feeling is for what we are doing it is not going to make a huge difference if there is a 25 year old cross ply, or something more modern. Side wheel is stock mini 3.5x10, so my option will be real limited anyway.

Also found a spacer for my left overs container that seems to fit the front wheel nicely, so after cleaning up all the burred metal faces, and giving the disk a tickle up with the flapper disks on the grinder and then giving it some treatment on the concrete drive, as well as the pads (first dirty marks on the new drive, strangely satisfying that was), I think I have solved that issue and probably made the front end a bit stifffer as well.

Just discovered this thread...I have a 10" 165/70 Yokohama Advan 032R sitting in my garden shed that still has some usefull tread. Missus wants it gone from HER garden shed...Hahaha. Was on the Beemer when Jo and I were racing it. Whats more its free to a good home if someone wants to come and retrieve it. PM me if anyone is interested ;)

[Pumba]

Just discovered this thread...I have a 10" 165/70 Yokohama Advan 032R sitting in my garden shed that still has some usefull tread. Missus wants it gone from HER garden shed...Hahaha. Was on the Beemer when Jo and I were racing it. Whats more its free to a good home if someone wants to come and retrieve it. PM me if anyone is interested ;)

Pick Me! Pick Me! Besides I am probably the closest to pick it up any way. PM being sent.

[swarfie]

Pick Me! Pick Me! Besides I am probably the closest to pick it up any way. PM being sent.

Haha...that didn't take long...you're welcome..PM replied

[Grumph]

I was thinking along similar lines, kind of like how an old Volkswagen Chassis is constructed in my mind, although implementing that in a sidecar would end up with something totally different.

The Griffiths one is built out of old driveshafts.

Google or find info on the Renwick built outfits from the mid/late 70's. The Boret bros one with a Koenig was probably the most successful. Large tube - 4 inch OD - with wishbone front ends. They were the direct ancestors of todays long bikes although they were all short layout. Relatively simple to fabricate.

[Kickaha]

http://msrphotographic.co.uk/assets/images/Renwick_Konig_flat_L_A_copy1.jpg
http://msrphotographic.co.uk/assets/images/Semi_side_on_proof_copy1.jpg

[Kickaha]

Something a bit more Bucket sized,all hand built including the motor by Alain Zurcher
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/s720x720/601312_175666019248012_304126632_n.jpg
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/270020_145735948907686_1873859464_n.jpg
http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/420003_114646405349974_619799100_n.jpg
Weighs in at 135kg and runs 6inch Kart wheels

[Gazzza]

Is there anything in our rules to say we can or can't run two wheels at the front?

[haydes55]

Is there anything in our rules to say we can or can't run two wheels at the front?


Like a can-am spyder layout?

[Henk]

Like a can-am spyder layout?

I think Gazza means two wheels at the front making four all up. Two at the front can am style is illegal. The four all up I'm not so sure about.

[haydes55]

I think Gazza means two wheels at the front making four all up. Two at the front can am style is illegal. The four all up I'm not so sure about.


Well 4 wheels would be a quad bike, not a sidecar.

I haven't read the bucket sidecar rules but at speedway, the rules start by saying "a sidecar is a 3 wheeled speedway motorbike..."

[Pumba]

Is there anything in our rules to say we can or can't run two wheels at the front?

Hmmm, well my interpretation is that our rules talk but front, rear, and side axles with no mention of wheels. I see nothing stopping having more than one wheel per axle. As long as it complies with the realities dimension rules.

[Gazzza]

Ummmm actually I meant ala Mr. Burcher and his home built rig above,clearly he has two wheels up front , one behind the other. Four wheels but only three line of axis forward. It looks like the looseness of the bucket sidecar rules could make for some interesting debate over form.

[Drew]

Ummmm actually I meant ala Mr. Burcher and his home built rig above,clearly he has two wheels up front , one behind the other. Four wheels but only three line of axis forward. It looks like the looseness of the bucket sidecar rules could make for some interesting debate over form.Within the rules I think. Hard to keep it under two meters long though, and a bitch to get the linkage rates right...and they'd be wrong as soon as a slide started.

[racer40]

All this sudden interest in bucket sidecars is great, lets just hope we see some of these other ones out soon, Probably Warrens at next race, The Tq wheeled Lawrance copy of the Mt Wellington organiser, John Steer is building one & my Bro Richie is building one out of a pit bike. Are there any for sale that anyone knows as now there is interest we may get people keen on them. There was a chassis in Henderson Valley thay was on Trade Me but i cant find Ph No if anyone has it.

[Pumba]

......There was a chassis in Henderson Valley thay was on Trade Me but i cant find Ph No if anyone has it.

Dont have a phone number Chris but I did find the old thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/153852-Bucket-sidecar-rolling-chassis?highlight=sidecar, it might be worth a PM to the guy to see if it is still there.

While I am at it, I saw some photos on a camera that I think belonged to one of your crew the other weekend. I would love to see some of those shared.

[wildman]

All this sudden interest in bucket sidecars is great, lets just hope we see some of these other ones out soon, Probably Warrens at next race, The Tq wheeled Lawrance copy of the Mt Wellington organiser, John Steer is building one & my Bro Richie is building one out of a pit bike. Are there any for sale that anyone knows as now there is interest we may get people keen on them. There was a chassis in Henderson Valley thay was on Trade Me but i cant find Ph No if anyone has it.

Hey Chris i have his number, left a message on his cellphone wasn't sure if you had contacted him. was going to see if i could have a look at it this weekend if he still has it. Will contact you tomorrow, had Gazzza out at workshop tonight, he's looking forward to next meeting. Does Des need a hand with anything on his one?

[Henk]

Pumba

The photos would have been taken by Simon and Chris Cairns.

I think Chris goes by the name of Chrisc on here. His is the bandwidth warning thread.

[koba]

Pumba

The photos would have been taken by Simon and Chris Cairns.

I think Chris goes by the name of Chrisc on here. His is the bandwidth warning thread.

Cain, it's not cricket!

[Pumba]

Pumba

The photos would have been taken by Simon and Chris Cairns.

I think Chris goes by the name of Chrisc on here. His is the bandwidth warning thread.

Ahh that would make sense. I obviously talked to Simon and when he said Chris I thought he was talking about Lawrence. Move along nothing more to see here....:whistle:

[Henk]

Cain, it's not cricket!

My bad. Some chars

[Gazzza]

Just wondering, any idea how many sidecars might be there for the next meet? I was thinking of going out both days, I know Warren will be there Saturday. Henk, Brian, you guys keen to do both days? How's your rig going Carl?
Well lets at least hope we get a better race day weather wise, than last time.

[Pumba]

Not a huge amount has happened with mine, need to spend some time chopping a few brackets this weekend and fitting the new tubes and tyre. Mine should instantly go better with all the front wheel spacers in place:sweatdrop

Need to do some repair work to the FXR after my little off in the last race as well.

That is prob about all I am going to have time for prior to the next meeting.

Will be up on the Sunday. Might make it on the Saturday but really wont know until closer to the time (e.g. prob Friday night or Saturday morning).

[Henk]

I'd count on us not being there. Rick may contradict me but he usually doesn't come on Saturdays.
I'll be there asleep in the van as usual if you need a back up swinger although Andrew will probably turn up if you are going to be there.

[Rick 52]

I'd count on us not being there. Rick may contradict me but he usually doesn't come on Saturdays.
I'll be there asleep in the van as usual if you need a back up swinger although Andrew will probably turn up if you are going to be there.

Saturday is not looking good, I am on call this week and haven't been in the garage for weeks due to being full of flu so Saturday will be getting my shit together for Sunday ..

[Gazzza]

No worries, I'll most likely be there Saturday still, look forward to seeing everyone Sunday.

[racer40]

Sorry we will not be there Sat, usually dont go on Sats plus to busy at work, but will definatly be there Sun. We have a new tyre on side so can give Warren his tube back, have moved nealeers forward to try & stop sledging, but cant find another tyre for front ( old & hard ) . See you all there for some more fun

[Kickaha]

With the outfits running Kart tyres what sizes are you using? Bridgestone had a whole heap of old stock control tyres they were quitting cheap a while back in the 4.5/10.0 - 5 (dry)
and 7.1/11.0 - 5 (dry) sizes, there might be some still available

Some cheap on TM to http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/other/auction-624721050.htm

[wildman]

With the outfits running Kart tyres what sizes are you using? Bridgestone had a whole heap of old stock control tyres they were quitting cheap a while back in the 4.5/10.0 - 5 (dry)
and 7.1/11.0 - 5 (dry) sizes, there might be some still available

Some cheap on TM to http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/other/auction-624721050.htm

Yep they will fit all but the front on the Lawrences rig, they have a really old tyre it's the same size as the old Goodyear Blue Streak rears which were hard compound when they were knew thirty years ago and were superseeded by early Bridgestones. Unfortunately can't fit bigger rim or tyre on theirs without re-engineering the front.


I will only be out saturday, have fitted the smaller 100 engine back in, running a bit rough and doesn't feel right in powerband. Could be the fuel needs dumping, been sitting for a few months or the pipe needs replacing been welded and welded and welded, job for next month i guess. Took some photos this morning will try and upload them this evening.

[wildman]

Some pictures of the green and yellow beast

[Grumph]

Ummmm actually I meant ala Mr. Burcher and his home built rig above,clearly he has two wheels up front , one behind the other. Four wheels but only three line of axis forward. It looks like the looseness of the bucket sidecar rules could make for some interesting debate over form.

In the course of looking for something else i came across rule 2 - 39 Definitions....

Sidecar : A vehicle having three wheels, two of which are in line fore and aft, with the third wheel offset to either side.

[Pumba]

Well that in my mind is pretty clear and ends any debate. But then I thought the leaf blower idea was stupid so what would I know.

Not much more to report. I have cut off a handle that the swinger was bitching about (somthing about it wacking him the chest), and I have fited the new old tyre to the front with a new tube and put it all back togeather with all the spacers this time. Front seems a shit load more solid now.

I have also fitted a new tube in the rear wheel so that should improve things.

Bout all that is left for me to do is change the front sprocket and the engine oil and it should be ready to go for the weekend. Unfortuently it is not everything I wanted to get done as I havenet had a chane to modify me knee cups or sort aout an intake for the carb but it will have to do for now.

[Pumba]

Well a bit of a summary from the weekend.

IT WAS FREAKING AWESOME!

Cheers to Swarfie for the new old tyre that I threw onto the front of the chair. I tell you what the grip difference was awesome and actually meant I could actually put the chair where I wanted it to be (most of the time). I cant wait till I have a bit more rear end grip so I can actually have some drive.

The chair preformed really well, with the exception of a faulty weld on the header pipe that gave up the ghost (nothing a hose clamps, lock wire, and ali cans couldnt fix), and my swinger that seems to have an aversion to holding on at the esses.

Roll on next time

[Drew]

Well a bit of a summary from the weekend.

IT WAS FREAKING AWESOME!

and my swinger that seems to have an aversion to holding on at the esses.

Roll on next time
That's good news. Now you get to drink the tray of beer the singer has to supply next meeting!

[speedpro]

my swinger that seems to have an aversion to holding on at the esses.

I was watching that and wondered how far you'd get before you figured he wasn't there any more. Not far as it turned out.

[mr bucketracer]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9062663/Feilding-students-change-sidecar-sphere

[seymour14]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/9062663/Feilding-students-change-sidecar-sphere

We really need to get these kids to a bucket meet.

How's about it Mr Bucketracer, should we go down to Manfeild and introduce them to the next level? (Maybe they'll introduce us!) :facepalm:

[wildman]

Well a bit of a summary from the weekend.



The chair preformed really well, with the exception of a faulty weld on the header pipe that gave up the ghost (nothing a hose clamps, lock wire, and ali cans couldnt fix), and my swinger that seems to have an aversion to holding on at the esses.

Roll on next time

Have to be fair to your swinger, you did make him push nearly the length of the straight to start it, and when it did start you took off and left him to face plant the track:killingme:killingme:killingme

[Gazzza]

Pretty impressive building from the young guys, would there be anything to stop them racing at a bucket meet?

We had another good turn out a Mt Welly, five rigs, only one non finisher for the day, and once young Brian gets his clutch parts he's back on board. Every one seemed a bit quicker, mind you it wasn't hosing down for a change. Word has it that in the next few months we could have another two or three rigs at the track :)

Just thinking that if anyone would like a go on a chair to see if its something they would be interested in I can for go one of the practice runs and you are most welcome to have a go.

[mr bucketracer]

Pretty impressive building from the young guys, would there be anything to stop them racing at a bucket meet?

We had another good turn out a Mt Welly, five rigs, only one non finisher for the day, and once young Brian gets his clutch parts he's back on board. Every one seemed a bit quicker, mind you it wasn't hosing down for a change. Word has it that in the next few months we could have another two or three rigs at the track :)

Just thinking that if anyone would like a go on a chair to see if its something they would be interested in I can for go one of the practice runs and you are most welcome to have a go.i did give them a rule book and they said there within bucket speck , just no where to race them . the kart club turned them down. they just need a engine with gears. feel like selling my one seen it sits here doing nothing

[Pumba]

That's good news. Now you get to drink the tray of beer the singer has to supply next meeting!

It is 2 trays so far, at this rate come our away meetings no one is going to have to bring there own beer.


I was watching that and wondered how far you'd get before you figured he wasn't there any more. Not far as it turned out.

Should have realised something was wrong when it wouldn't turn for the left hander, I was just a little focused on catching Chris and just assumed that he was on the side doing his job:doh: We might need to work on our communication


Have to be fair to your swinger, you did make him push nearly the length of the straight to start it, and when it did start you took off and left him to face plant the track:killingme:killingme:killingme

Yea well in my defence I was only half on the chair myself when it fired and I wasn't sure I was going to get back in control before I fell off the side (now a chair driving its self down the track until the float bowl starved out, that would have been funny). Now where did I put that old battery of mine for the starter motor.....

[trevf]

Pumba- The sidecar that you have was built by myself about 15 years ago. I raced it and my son was my swinger.We raced at Ohakea and palmerston kart track mostly.At some meetings we would have 10-15 chairs-bloody good fun.Good to see someone still having fun with it.
Trevor Ferguson
Wanganui

[Henk]

Pumba, in fairness to your swinger I'd say you are liable for at least half the beers, if you hadn't been too disorganised or tight to have put a battery in it he wouldn't have bought on an asthma attack pushing that big lump of heavy down the track and might have been able to stay on regardless of how rough and erratic you were with the driving :)

[Drew]

Pumba, in fairness to your swinger I'd say you are liable for at least half the beers, if you hadn't been too disorganised or tight to have put a battery in it he wouldn't have bought on an asthma attack pushing that big lump of heavy down the track and might have been able to stay on regardless of how rough and erratic you were with the driving :)

A common mistake. It is always the swingers fault!

It was Alan's fault we rolled at Taupo, just as it is Pumba's swinger fault there was no battery.

[Kickaha]

Pumba, in fairness to your swinger
No such thing as being fair to the swinger, they're just ballast, nothing more

[wildman]

Pumba, in fairness to your swinger I'd say you are liable for at least half the beers, if you hadn't been too disorganised or tight to have put a battery in it he wouldn't have bought on an asthma attack pushing that big lump of heavy down the track and might have been able to stay on regardless of how rough and erratic you were with the driving :)

HAHAHA Pick on Pumba time, well at least he makes it to the track on race day:innocent:

[mr bucketracer]

Pumba- The sidecar that you have was built by myself about 15 years ago. I raced it and my son was my swinger.We raced at Ohakea and palmerston kart track mostly.At some meetings we would have 10-15 chairs-bloody good fun.Good to see someone still having fun with it.
Trevor Ferguson
Wanganuioh it was your one! bad memory

[Pumba]

Well Trev you certainly built a solid rig, and you should be proud that if us still going strong. What were you originally running? And how did it preform back in the day out of curiosity?


, if you hadn't been too disorganised or tight to have put a battery in

Guilty on both counts.

I mean it is all the swingers fault.

[Gazzza]

Hope this link works, first race Mt Welly this weekend...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Ij8mcOyhk&feature=youtu.be


Sorry about the spill Andrew, still we have to push it hard to keep Henk and Rick in sight.

[Henk]

Since I have been shown the error of my ways in trying to shift some of the blame to Pumba I must apologise. I'm probably partly to blame since I was swinging on another rig.

[Henk]

Great video, no wonder Andrew had a stiff neck on Monday.

[wildman]

i did give them a rule book and they said there within bucket speck , just no where to race them . the kart club turned them down. they just need a engine with gears. feel like selling my one seen it sits here doing nothing

Haha no you can't sell it we need you out racing with us, unless you want to sell it to me [ i like tf motors]:shutup:

[mr bucketracer]

Well Trev you certainly built a solid rig, and you should be proud that if us still going strong. What were you originally running? And how did it preform back in the day out of curiosity?



Guilty on both counts.

I mean it is all the swingers fault.i know it was a honda 125 , and it went well . tony and jills 125 4 stroke was the fastist ,if that bike was tracked down it would be a wepon to someone

c

[koba]

i know it was a honda 125 , and it went well . tony and jills 125 4 stroke was the fastist ,if that bike was tracked down it would be a wepon to someone

c

Did it have Tony ??? Plumbing? maybe, no perhaps Electrical, or maybe construction, or something on it?

[Pumba]

Hmmm been a while since I have updated this thread.

I have been doing a bit of prep work in the lead up to the GP. As we all sat round discussing at Tamuranui it appeared that there may have been a little movement in my front end.

So today I dropped the front wheel out and had a quick look at the steering head.


http://youtu.be/Xa5EHIw-gho

And another for those that missed it the first time


http://youtu.be/iw1NsUILgRM

I will do a bit more of an update later once the kids are in bed.

[seymour14]

Looks like you are running American clearances.

[koba]

Yeah, it's all good if you time it so it's slopping the right way as you turn in, not so much if you don't...

[Henk]

Leave it the way it is, call it engineered flex in an endeavour to make the handling less harsh.

[Pumba]

Yeah, it's all good if you time it so it's slopping the right way as you turn in, not so much if you don't...


Leave it the way it is, call it engineered flex in an endeavour to make the handling less harsh.

Koba what do you reckon. Does the flex make the handling less harsh?

Problem with it all is that the top cap is binding on the steering tube before the top bearing is seated in place. I thought it was ok when I first put it all together, but it is now pretty obvious I was wrong.

Given I got the front end in pieces with all the bearings in an ice cream container I gave it my best shot. I will admit that there were some bits left over at the end, so tell what I should be trying next.

This is the way I had it together.

294120

Here is a close up

294121

In my bin of left over parts there was this seal

294122

Which could go like this

294123

Or there is this one

294124

Which looks a bit like this

294125

Opinions please, am I missing something else?

I guess the other option is to make up a spacer.

[koba]

That looks horrible.

I'd make a spacer to pack some pre-load on to the bearings for the GP.
That's only because it's 2 weeks away and I know you don't own an engineering shop.

Long term?
I'd be quite keen to weld in an entirely different steering head, that thing is build for a flexy commuter 100, a sidecar ain't the same; build that part stronger than the latest superbike!

As much as that thing looks like it is built for stock-car racing it actually handles OK (Apart from that terrible float) so get that sorted first.

Next is more rounded crashy bits and drilling 6500 holes.

[Henk]

And taking away some of the sharp, every time I've climbed on that thing I thought that if it went wrong it could hurt, a lot.

[Pumba]

It gets better when you look at the top "triple clamp"

294129

And the sticks the use as forks

294130

[Pumba]

Good news though

294131

[koba]

Good news though

294131

You might have to be more specific...

[Pumba]

I stole the battery out of my Triumph and threw it in the sidecar. No more battery pack issues or mega push if we stall.

[Drew]

Holy shit, how has that front end not folded under the chair?

We ran a top 'triple clamp' sort of thing, and it bent and distorted beyond belief.

I suggest you knock up a swingarm style front end, and weld the top plate to the uprights. Deep grove ball bearings is what we found that Mr Windle still uses. Bit of a piss around with thin spacers to get it snug, but works nicely.

[racer40]

But Drew it hasnt been upside down as many times as yours LOL

[Gazzza]

Hi Carl, of all the rigs out there yours is the one I would be really keen to have a go on, might also give me some ideas for the RV 90 chair I'm stalled on. Hope you get your front end sorted for the big outing and did you get your new tires fitted?

[Pumba]

That looks horrible........Long term?...........Next is more rounded crashy bits and drilling 6500 holes.


And taking away some of the sharp..............

Yea all that is part if the plan. Just need a time and money tree in the back garden.


Holy shit, how has that front end not folded under the chair?

We ran a top 'triple clamp' sort of thing, and it bent and distorted beyond belief.

I suggest you knock up a swingarm style front end, and weld the top plate to the uprights. Deep grove ball bearings is what we found that Mr Windle still uses. Bit of a piss around with thin spacers to get it snug, but works nicely.

Is this the one that failed on you Drew

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=286435&d=1376551999

So your set up now is solid top and bottom with a pin as the steering steam (haven't been up close to any modern chairs while I was really interested in paying attention to the set up)


But Drew it hasnt been upside down as many times as yours LOL

Thought Koba was going to do it at Tamuranui though:shit::shit::shit::shit::shit:

[Pumba]

Hi Carl, of all the rigs out there yours is the one I would be really keen to have a go on, might also give me some ideas for the RV 90 chair I'm stalled on. Hope you get your front end sorted for the big outing and did you get your new tires fitted?

Well if you are down at Tokoroa mate you are welcome to take it out if we find time in the day.

I put the new rear tyre on the rim a couple of nights ago. Not sure if I will swap out the front tyre at the moment. Seems to be working pretty well grip wise.

[koba]

Thought Koba was going to do it at Tamuranui though:shit::shit::shit::shit::shit:

It was miles away from tipping...

[Henk]

It was miles away from tipping...

Inches, the obsolete imperial measurement you are looking for is inches.

[koba]

Inches, the obsolete imperial measurement you are looking for is inches.

It's not like I was a mile out.

[wildman]

Koba what do you reckon. Does the flex make the handling less harsh?

Problem with it all is that the top cap is binding on the steering tube before the top bearing is seated in place. I thought it was ok when I first put it all together, but it is now pretty obvious I was wrong.

Given I got the front end in pieces with all the bearings in an ice cream container I gave it my best shot. I will admit that there were some bits left over at the end, so tell what I should be trying next.

This is the way I had it together.

294120

Here is a close up

294121

In my bin of left over parts there was this seal

294122

Which could go like this

294123

Or there is this one

294124

Which looks a bit like this

294125

Opinions please, am I missing something else?

I guess the other option is to make up a spacer.

Sorry Carl should of taken photos for you before we pulled it apart and can't be sure we got all the bearings that fell out. But look on the bright side, we only cut through one bar before we realized how to make it fit in van, [note to self alcohol and good ideas don't always go together ]:innocent:

[Pumba]

All good Warren. Maybe I should get drunk and reassemble it? Yea that can only end well.....

[Drew]

Is this the one that failed on you Drew

So your set up now is solid top and bottom with a pin as the steering steam (haven't been up close to any modern chairs while I was really interested in paying attention to the set up)



Yip, that bit of 12mm plate across the top is quite S shaped now. It would flex so much while riding, that the big arse nut on the top used to undo itself.

We built it that way so we could use taper roller bearings. Everyone else just runs deep grove ball bearings, but I thought I knew better...I was wrong.

It's replaced now with a piece of fixed steel plate, and the pin goes down through it and secures with a big nut on the bottom. We made it about 1mm bigger between the plates, than the outside measurement from bearing to bearing. Then just shimmed it to make it snug. Works pretty well, and is easy enough to replace bearings on. Only thing I'd like to do different, is locate the shims in some way to save a little pissing around. It's not that important though, it's not overly hard to do.

[Pumba]

.....We built it that way so we could use taper roller bearings.......

Interesting as that was my plan as. I have a triple tree and steering steem here that I was going to graft on. May have to rethink it, although I suspect that the forces that we are aciveing with our chairs is a little different to the full sizejobs

[Drew]

Interesting as that was my plan as. I have a triple tree and steering steem here that I was going to graft on. May have to rethink it, although I suspect that the forces that we are aciveing with our chairs is a little different to the full sizejobs
Fixed fork, swingarm front end is the only way to go. Pair of nice soft shocks, and brakes mounted on a torque arm rather than the swingarm.

This is the system that all other than hub center steering outfits have...and Windle short chairs are still made this way.

It's not even that much work to make from scratch. I've done it twice now.

[Pumba]

Cheers Drew. Will have to look into it a bit harder in a few weeks, when I can pull it all to bit again and do some measuring.

For now I can say I have the front end back together. Hope fully it stays that way, but I know what to keep an eye on now.

Now a few will know the carb issues I had over a few meetings (basically it feel off and had a huge hole in the mid range jetting). I don't have the cash to buy a new OKO so I have borrowed the carb off my FXR with he theory being I can swap it over Saturday night to run the bike on the Sunday. I am going to add into the fuel line a primer bulb which should make the bike a bit easier to start.

Once I get it running on the weekend it should be all ready to go for the GP.

[Pumba]

Right mental note to ones self, tighten banjo bolts before trying to bleed brakes.

Chair is pretty much all back together and ready to rock. Might even get time to put a number or two on it before the weekend.

[Pumba]

Well what an eventful event! Figured I shall record it here with a race report.

Arrived at the track Friday night and was introduced to Ieda who was jumping on to swing. All good we start looking over the Battletruck (as it has now been christened), the comments are interesting to say the least.

Saturday morning rolls round and I am feeling pretty good. After a few tweaks to replace a panel that was left on the bench at home and cleaning up a few odds and ends we are all go for practise one/qualifing.

P1/Qual

Well it was pretty loose. I think Ieda was strugling to figure out how to move in the limited room available, and where the handholds were. Add to that the new rear tyre that was taking a bit to scrub in. Oh and then was the small off track excursion when coming out of the bottom of the hill the left hand clip on moved as I loaded it up.

Managed to put a 58sec lap on the board. Good enough for second on the grid but a long way of the 52sec? of Rick and Henk, so we had some work to do.

P2

Another quick practise was called right before the GP. This was great as it gave me a chance to drop the rear tyre pressures and Ieda and I to have a chat over what was working and what wasn't. We only had about 3-5 laps and come back in actually thinking we were down a bit on speed but felt smoother on track. Well we did something right as we knocked another 2 sec off our qualifying time.

Race

Decided it was worth dropping the pressure in the rear another couple. I knew I had to nail the start because if Rick and Henk got away I didn't think we were going to catch them.

Flag dropped and I nailed it.

Felt I had out driven Rick and Henk off the line, as soon as I lost sight of the front wheel in my vision I made the move to shut the door on them before turn one; and HOLLY SHIT!!!! IT WORKED!!!!! WE WERE IN FRONT!!!!!

I just put my head down from this point on and gave it all I could. I was aware the Henk and Rick wouldn't be giving up without a fight, but was a bit surprised when I took a glance driving up the hill and saw the blue and pink of the Lawrence rig trying to stick its nose up the inside. He was not going to gain on that line so just continued to put my head down.

Then disaster struck. Lap 5? coming out of the hairpin I suddenly had no drive? Thrown chain!! FUCK!! In hindsight this probably was the fist sign that things were going wrong as it was quite easy to run back on.

Anyway we got the chain on and set about salvaging something from the race.

It was only a lap or so later that I noticed that the front wheel wasn't quite sitting right. First though was something had loosened off in the steering head again. Didn't seem to be slowing us down so I pushed on, we had places to make up!

Couple of laps later it was getting worse, but still wasn't affecting the handling to badly, so we pushed on.

A few laps after that I was really aware that something was not right (by this stage so was Ieda). Things were starting to get very loose up front. I really should have stopped but I was dead set on finishing.

Well we got 2 laps from the end and it finally gave up the ghost as the front end completely collapsed. Fortunately it was on the straight, slamming the frame into the track and sending us sliding off into the grass on the side of the track, coming to a stop about as close as I would want to get to the wall.

Race well and truly over:weep::weep::weep::weep::weep:

294682 294683 294684 294685 294686 294687

So Drew, in recommendations and the solution to this horrible looking mess?

[Drew]

That's a mighty effort!

Heavier box section would be the easy fix. If you do go to a swingarm front end though, the headstock can be made much stronger just by not being so far out.

I would have thought the forks would bend before the frame snapped though.

[Moooools]

Well we got 2 laps from the end and it finally gave up the ghost as the front end completely collapsed. Fortunately it was on the straight, slamming the frame into the track and sending us sliding off into the grass on the side of the track, coming to a stop about as close as I would want to get to the wall.

Race well and truly over:weep::weep::weep::weep::weep:

294682 294683 294684 294685 294686 294687

So Drew, in recommendations and the solution to this horrible looking mess?

That is just a classic failure. Very high stiffness section (welded in steel panels) meets very low stiffness section. It causes huge stresses on the unstiff section causing it to fatigue.

one solution could be to cut out the steel shear plate and replace it with a single piece of RHS on each side to triangulate it. It will be locally less stiff, because springs (and yes your frame is a spring) in series are mostly driven by the least stiff spring (in this case being the rest of the rig), the overall stiffness of the rig should barely change.

Or just more steel. That also works.

Also I currently have no tyres for you, as we left our worst set in Aus. But we have an engine again, so as soon as we have burnt up this set a bit I will let you know.

[Bert]

Funny things get recorded when you leave your camera lying around.

Here's Carl telling the story...


http://youtu.be/_pYdaSNKPSI

[Pumba]

Funny things get recorded when you leave your camera lying around.

Here's Carl telling the story...

Bloody hell! Secret squirl recordings, next thing I know the GCSB will be knocking on the door! (at which point I will ask what thier welding skills are like).

[NinjaNanna]

Funny things get recorded when you leave your camera lying around.

Here's Carl telling the story...

@Pumba

:facepalm: looks like you've been having fun though mate :laugh:

[koba]

That is quite scary!

Thanks though, couldn't have got :third: with your rig still going!

[Henk]

That is quite scary!

Thanks though, couldn't have got :third: with your rig still going!

I'm not sure we would have won it without him having problems, he was making that thing proper wide for the first five laps or so.

[mr bucketracer]

pumba getting it on with the sidecar
:crazy:

[Pumba]

Well stripped it all apart today and there has been a shit load of force go thorough the frame as front engine mount is event a little bent.

Will get it all welded and braced and it will be up and running again in no time.

[Drew]

Well stripped it all apart today and there has been a shit load of force go thorough the frame as front engine mount is event a little bent.

Will get it all welded and braced and it will be up and running again in no time.After talking with Alan about his time on a bucket sidecar, I dunno if there's any point in following my earlier advice of a swingarm front end. He reckons they're all so shit and ill handling, there'd be no advantage.

[koba]

After talking with Alan about his time on a bucket sidecar, I dunno if there's any point in following my earlier advice of a swingarm front end. He reckons they're all so shit and ill handling, there'd be no advantage.

Yeah, at times it feels like springs may help but I think Karts are the example to follow for the application.

[Drew]

I am still undecided what I'll build.

[Pumba]

Thought out suspension has to be of some benefit, in particular on the rigs running the 10 inch wheels. For those that Brenton has built with the kart wheels and tyres I am not sure that you would achieve all that much.

I am still in two minds myself.

After what happened on the weekend, looking at some of the things that have bent, and observing the photos that Chris took their is some weird shit going on in the front end of my chair (I am sure no one is surprised by that statement). Add to that its age and the hard life I know it has had and I will admit I have lost a little faith in it, or I am over thinking shit (wouldn't be the first time). But it should be all good once it is fixed. Just not sure I am going to spend a lot of time or money developing it any further

I have a couple of solid idea for a new rig that I am going to out my efforts into. My plans revolve around sticking to the short bike format with the big wheels and a FXR motor. Plan would be to have it running for the GP next year, but I guess that will be very $ dependant, and time bit to a much lesser extent.

[NinjaNanna]

I will admit I have lost a little faith in it, or I am over thinking shit (wouldn't be the first time).



weld the biatch back up and get on with it - oh yeah and lay off the pies :bleh:

[jibberwobble]

Hi all

I've been reading through this thread in odd moments for a couple of days and it's been quite entertaining to see that you lot are pretty much a carbon copy of we're doing over here with small chair racing and knocking stuff up in sheds with whatever comes to hand.

I agree with many of the theories discussed here and disagree with others (as anyone would I guess) but wont stick my oar in as I'm no expert myself. One thing is for sure though as far as handling goes, a chair cant be expected to handle symmetrically and rights are taken in a different way to lefts. Lefts are just WAAAAHHHHHH on my outfit, full gas and big smile. For the rights you have to get it squirming around on the brakes on the way in with passenger almost climbing across my back to get the weight on the front wheel. Before understanding the handling I was ending up pushing on and running wide in all the rights. Now we get our front tyre almost too hot to hold your hand on after 10 laps!

Brilliant thread though Pumba, loving the pictures of the more exotic creations.

What are your engine size limits again? ......... I guess this is where I need to go off and have a look for some rules!!!!!!

Not had a proper look around on here yet but will put a thread/pics/vids up hopefully later today which may (or may not) help on the fresh ideas front. Our units are in some ways more refined but in others more basic (and smaller) increasing the passengers influence even more. We are doing 100k's at the end of the straights on kart tracks though.

I also think you's may be able to give me a bit of advice about engine set up etc

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1385048_4980641973657_1943507504_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1173790_4701168346991_1111800453_n.jpg

[seymour14]

This is our little gem, when it goes! May be starting a new one this year, Trellis frame all aluminium bodied.

Think the old sidecar is at least 20-25 years old, and from what I know, used to be a four stroke. Now TF powered.

Shown back in the day and stripped back in its current guise.

[Henk]

Had a look at your sidecars on the web a while back and can't remember all the details.
Ours are quite a bit bigger than yours physically I think, engines limits are 100cc water cooled two stroke, 125 air cooled two stroke or 150cc filthy four stroke, which is what most are running.
For most of us running sidecars here they are a bit of a side interest as barring one or two teams we all run solos as well.
Huge fun.

[Bert]

Hi all
......

Brilliant thread though Pumba, loving the pictures of the more exotic creations.

What are your engine size limits again? ......... I guess this is where I need to go off and have a look for some rules!!!!!!

Not had a proper look around on here yet but will put a thread/pics/vids up hopefully later today which may (or may not) help on the fresh ideas front. Our units are in some ways more refined but in others more basic (and smaller) increasing the passengers influence even more. We are doing 100k's at the end of the straights on kart tracks though.

I also think you's may be able to give me a bit of advice about engine set up etc


Choice, I've been following the uk scene for a little while now.

Our mini sidecars started back in the mid 80s and unfortunately died out early 2000s. But made a comeback this year.

Here is the GP from earlier this year.

http://youtu.be/xzU1Yb7bBtw

Engine size.
100 water cooled two strokes, 125 air cooled two strokes (24mm carb restriction)
150cc four strokes.
Non-competition engines.

And again here's Pumba telling us how it went wrong for him


http://youtu.be/_pYdaSNKPSI


And an old school GP 1999

http://youtu.be/L2qhlwSEags

[Pumba]

Hi all.........I agree with many of the theories discussed here and disagree with others (as anyone would I guess) but wont stick my oar in as I'm no expert myself..........

Not being an expert is even more of an idea to share your theories. Never know what you might learn that might change your opinions. Love to hear your thoughts at some stage.


Brilliant thread though Pumba, loving the pictures of the more exotic creations.

Thanks :Punk:


What are your engine size limits again? ......... I guess this is where I need to go off and have a look for some rules!!!!!!

Think engine size limits have been covered. Full rules can be found here http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/rules/chapter-24---road-racing---miniature.pdf?sfvrsn=2

I think our minimum sizes were just a bit bigger than your max sizes. I am looking forward to some photos (particularity of your rigs with there clothes off).


Had a look at your sidecars on the web .....


Choice, I've been following the uk scene for a little while now....

I too have been known to keep an eye on what has been happening in the UK. Looks like fun

[jibberwobble]

Aye! thanks for the replies. That was a good watch, reliability robbed us of a good battle there. The chain of events that led me here started by seeing one of your vids that someone posted on a big sidecar forum, I then posted it on my regular forum after sometime later when one of the guys found this on ebay....

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/MONKEY-BIKE-side-car-out-fit-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/HGcAAOxy63FS76FI/$_58.JPG

We all laughed at it to be honest and we (me included) had a chuckle at how in the vid I posted it almost looked like slow motion. Needless to say this rig went round and round and never sold. But realistically we in the uk need to take a step back and put it into perspective and whilst I'm here may I apologise for my initial reaction and being a dick! Our units must look silly and small to you? The vid above looks like a much quicker pace and is plenty fast enough by the looks of it to have a good scrap.

So it looks like there was some form of sidecar racing in the uk at some point that ran to a similar spec to yours at least. The uk sidecar folk that I know stared out racing minimoto's in the 80/90's I think and started a british championship with sidecars as a side interest like you guys. Minimoto's took off and the original gang ended up drifting over to sidecars as thier main racing interest. popularity has come and gone periodically since then with it being at a good level just now. There are about 12 or so active crews out there that I know of.

Our rigs started off pretty small and slowly grew, rules were amended a few years ago to allow slightly larger chassis which as it goes were not seen to be the way to go until recently. Power wise we can have up to 85cc 2 stroke and 200cc 4 stroke (road based) or 150cc 4 stroke (moto-x based). No tuning on MX engines at all. With us being lighter and smaller the 80 and 85 2T's are a perfect match to the 4T's which I guess is due to the torque not being so important.

At the end of the day the most important thing whatever the rules and speeds is that the machines are evenly matched to allow close racing. Adults in the UK still race slower aircooled minimoto's just because the racing is close and the fun factor is high.

Thread coming.............

[jibberwobble]

LOL I've just checked back and the vid you posted that I just said looked faster was the exact same vid that I had seen before :Oops:

I must be getting tuned into these rigs!

[Pumba]

........Our units must look silly and small to you?

Yes. Yes they do. Still looks like fun though. Over to your new thread I go:chase:

[jibberwobble]

Yes. Yes they do. Still looks like fun though. Over to your new thread I go:chase:

It's funny how you get accustom to what you know, when I show people pics of minimoto's the laugh there tits off at me but to me it's completely normal now and they dont look odd at all but of course they are! I laugh just as hard inside my helmet when I'm blasting round though.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k180/jibberwobble/IMG_0977.jpg

So will you be making changes to you're rig or just beefing it up for now?

[Henk]

People look at us a bit odd for racing such small capacity bikes as well.
On it local kart track we only get up to about 90 km/hr but you can have a hell of a lot of fun at that speed and the racing is as close or closer than any other class. The budget on the other hand is nowhere near big bike racing.
The mini moto scene here died out about four years ago. I'm not sure why.

Pumba, have you got your rig back together again? Be good to see you next weekend if you have.

[Pumba]

Pumba, have you got your rig back together again? Be good to see you next weekend if you have.

Apart from stripping it all apart not a lot more than has been done. Every chance I have gone round to work on it I seem to have ended up splitting wood or some other chore for the oldies. Need to get it all straight again before I get a mate to weld it it properly.


So will you be making changes to you're rig or just beefing it up for now?

No real changes planned at this stage. I have come to the conclusion that any major mods will just be throwing time and effort away on this rig and I wouldn't know where to stop if I started. I have ideas of grandeur and have a sketching up ideas for a new rig, but with a young family finances are a bit tight to do anything about it at the moment.

We are all allowed to dream.

[Henk]

Pumba, that rig of yours would go much better if you added more heavy to it. Watching the video of the GP both you and Chris monster end us off the line, I recon we should all run homologated Loncin non electric start engines as a policy, at least until we get a better engine for ours.

[jibberwobble]

People look at us a bit odd for racing such small capacity bikes as well.
On it local kart track we only get up to about 90 km/hr but you can have a hell of a lot of fun at that speed and the racing is as close or closer than any other class. The budget on the other hand is nowhere near big bike racing.
The mini moto scene here died out about four years ago. I'm not sure why.

Mini's nearly died here a couple of times, it's still struggling to some degree but this year the racing has taken off a bit again partly due to a new series that started last year offering tv coverage and the like. I will have to get along to one of those but usually race with the British championship (if you can still call it that) as thats where the chairs are. I stopped racing mini's to concentrate on keeping the sidecar and my two boys going at meetings. Still hack about on track days though when money allows.

The chinese revolution created a boom then bust bubble over here with millions of scabby scrotes getting hold of crappy chinky death traps and terrorising the streets giving the whole scene a bad name.


Apart from stripping it all apart not a lot more than has been done. Every chance I have gone round to work on it I seem to have ended up splitting wood or some other chore for the oldies. Need to get it all straight again before I get a mate to weld it it properly.



No real changes planned at this stage. I have come to the conclusion that any major mods will just be throwing time and effort away on this rig and I wouldn't know where to stop if I started. I have ideas of grandeur and have a sketching up ideas for a new rig, but with a young family finances are a bit tight to do anything about it at the moment.

We are all allowed to dream.

You're in a very similar spot to me Pumba, my rig was hanging and needed stuff doing before running again at the end of the season but finances, family and work meant it had to wait til early this year. I had to either gob it back together 'til next time' or cut some big bits off and go in a new direction. I chose to go for the biggy due to it being a new year and not wanting to spend the entire season chasing problems and having loads more DNF's. Like you say Once I stared I just went for throwing all the experiments we wanted to try on it while I was there. There was plenty of reasons to continue developing it before building from scratch. Having taken my only rig to bits means I dont have any wheels to race on though.

In your position and with my own hindsight I'd do exactly what you're doing and make that bit a bit stronger and chug on for now, if you have old faithful still going you can mess about and build a new one slowly and as funds allow without being pressured into rushing it through.

[Pumba]

Well given all the discussion on here figured I would spill my guts on what I am thinking for the future, just encase some long lost aunt with all her millions (would probably settle for thousands, even hundreds would not go a miss) and has named me as benefactor of the estate (I did mention earlier about being allowed to dream).

Anyway, should I start from scratch I am thinking a short bike modelled on a modern F2. What I am pretty sure I will do is:


Seamless Steel Tube Frame (anyone got any clues on sizes?)
Length somewhere around the minimum wheelbase of 1300mm
Wheel Track around the 800mm mark (for no other reason than it looks in proportion on my sketch)
FXR powered (although if the cheater 85cc engines come in.........)


Wow, not a big list when I look at. The list of what I have questions about is much longer.

One of the big things I am changing my mind about is the wheels. Just because I really like the 10inch rims. But to be honest I am starting to reconsider this. kart rims just seem like the easier option from an engineering point of view. If I were to go down the 10inch wheel track you are talking the need to get customised hubs to accommodate disk brakes and a drive sprocket. Kart gear to a large extent like axles and hubs are available off the shelf. Just seems easier.

Something else that I had not thought a lot about until today was the alignment of the drive and front wheels. Always thought I would put them straight in line, but given we have the 70mm allowance in the rules, the pictures from jibberwobble and the realisation that the big rigs run some offset I am thinking that not utilising some of this 70mm offset would be a lost opportunity. But what to make it?

I think I would still run suspension. My gut tells me that there has to be some benefit to doing so. Leading link at the front with a swing arm at the back, although if I go with kart wheels there is probably a chance to have something a bit flasher at the front (I doubt that is needed).

That is about it for the moment. Might start writing shit down in here as it comes to mind so I have a record of it. It is as good as any note book as someone might have an answer or two.

[Drew]

Maximum offset is the best way to go. It's where pretty much all of your stability comes from.

[Gazzza]

Hi Carl, re the kart rim option the front ends need some thought, a rear kart rim is fixed to the axle which spins in bearings but you need to go the opposite way and have the rim run on bearings and fix the axle. I couldn't make my own hub up and had to get Darren Morgan to fabricate one (I'm talking Henk and Ricks rig here) which holds the bearings and also has a flanged end to take a disc for the brakes. My blue rig runs the same set up. On Henk and Ricks rig I also placed the axle in large Rose joints to try and take out some of the misalignment in the forks. It sounds simple but it isn't something I could do with the required accuracy with the tools I had. The rig Chris got had the same sort of set up but was Only able to run an odd ball tire that would fit the rim is made up, it never had much stick, I think Chris,before he left, finally sorted a decent front rim/tire combo.
Check out those rigs to get the idea. I also tried to make up a leading link front end but due to the low axle height I was struggling to get the angles to work without fouling on my front rail, I doubt it would be worth the hassle to be honest, throw on a MG yellow and you wont get the front to lose traction to easily.
If you can make it to the track this weekend take mine for a run and see how it goes.
B.

[Kickaha]

I couldn't make my own hub up and had to get Darren Morgan to fabricate one (I'm talking Henk and Ricks rig here) which holds the bearings and also has a flanged end to take a disc for the brakes.

Front disc hub off a gearbox Kart has all that although you'd possibly need an axle to suit