Upgrading Win 7 to Win 8

[pzkpfw]

Anyone gone through the process of upgrading a PC from 7 to 8?

(An in-place upgrade, not a wipe the HDD clean and start from scratch move.)

Just wondering if you found many caveats; I'm wondering how "careful" I ought to be about backing up stuff like my PST file.

[SMOKEU]

Fuck doing that, if you're going to do that then do it properly by formatting the HD first and doing a fresh install.

AFAIK it is possible to do an "upgrade" from Windows 7 to 8 with a clean install. I think you just need the old Windows 7 key.

[tigertim20]

windows 8 sucks.
my new laptop has it, im thinking about putting 7 on it

[iYRe]

my boss has done several of them.
It usually works ok, but ALWAYS.. ALWAYS.. ALWAYS back you stuff up first..

it is microsoft after all.

[Gremlin]

Just wondering if you found many caveats; I'm wondering how "careful" I ought to be about backing up stuff like my PST file.
Uh... even if the install process is smooth, it doesn't mean your particular one will go smoothly. ALWAYS back up your data.

9/10 Windows installs go smoothly ... but there is always that one where something goes wrong, and it doesn't perform how it should, so you wipe and do it again.

[pzkpfw]

Thanks folk.

Yeah, I will backup, it's more about levels of completeness; and assuaging my own nervousness.

(I already have the supplied-with-my-Dell on-line backup (of certain libraries) going to the Internet somewhere.

And I run 2 x 1TB drives, and one is dedicated to being a backup of the other (yes, I know there are other ways to do all that) receiving the results of Windows' own backup system plus one-off file/folder copies.

Plus I also copy all my client and own-business files to multiple external hard drives.)

Mostly just looking at how "smooth" the install is (usually); real experience from real people.

Sounds like it's a go.

(And yeah, only going the 8 way now because clients are starting to want 8ish things done. They pay, I do.)

[SMOKEU]

And I run 2 x 1TB drives, and one is dedicated to being a backup of the other (yes, I know there are other ways to do all that) receiving the results of Windows' own backup system plus one-off file/folder copies.


Robocopy...

[pzkpfw]

Robocopy...

Avocado...

[SMOKEU]

Avocado...

Big floppy donkey dick...

[Akzle]

upgrade to linux!

[Bald Eagle]

it's Windows, upgrade to an Operating system not a virus delivery application ;-) Linux ;-)

[pzkpfw]

I get that jokes are jokes, but will quote myself:


... (And yeah, only going the 8 way now because clients are starting to want 8ish things done. They pay, I do.)

If I could suddenly start doing Linuxy stuff and get paid more than what I do now, sure I'd switch.

(Having said that, one of my current projects will require an app made first in mumble mumble and later converted to Android. So will be needing to "expand"... just not yet...)

[Mental Trousers]

Since WinXP they're all downgrades.

[James Deuce]

Don't do it. Install Virtualbox and run up a VM first and see if you can cope with it.

It really is shit.

Server 2012 would be a better idea for a work machine.

[pzkpfw]

Don't do it. Install Virtualbox and run up a VM first and see if you can cope with it.

It really is shit.

Server 2012 would be a better idea for a work machine.

Doing Win 8 stuff in a virtual machine would be a good idea, but I generally can't be arsed with that approach unless it's specifically required (i.e. stuff that just isn't compatible both ways so multiple OS's are needed).

I've got an XP VM on my current PC; only ever used it once, and that wasn't for work (it was to play an old game).

In this case, I need to start doing some things that are specifically Win 8 based (i.e. with Visual Studio 2012, certain things (whatever they call Metro now) can't be done unless 8 is the OS). Otherwise I'd just be sticking with 7 for a while longer. Heck, maybe Metro skills will be rare and worth something! I hear IRD will pay big $$$ for Cobol programmers right now...

[James Deuce]

You poor bastard. You will probably go mad and kill your family trying to use Windows 8 for anything vaguely productive. There's a reason Microsoft's head of Windows resigned two days ago.

[wharekura]

with Visual Studio 2012, certain things (whatever they call Metro now) can't be done unless 8 is the OS).maybe Metro skills will be rare and worth something! I hear IRD will pay big $$$ for Cobol programmers right now...
Cobol was my first programming language on pdp11 - hell, in some cases I was using ticker tape to send instructions to a metal cutting machine. Putting the past aside, what has remain fairly stable is HTML with Javascript and this still applies with the latest Win8 touchy feely focus.

[pzkpfw]

Cobol was my first programming language on pdp11 - hell, in some cases I was using ticker tape to send instructions to a metal cutting machine. Putting the past aside, what has remain fairly stable is HTML with Javascript and this still applies with the latest Win8 touchy feely focus.

Indeed. (I did a paper on Cobol at Uni in 1989 (never used it in anger). The lecturer was widely described as "half Man, half Cobol".)

Seems Silverlight is perhaps "dead", and HTML5+J(ava)Script is the new thing. That's probably a good thing, as it's more universal. Presumably why MS went/is going that way.

(And makes me happy I never put effort into learning Silverlight. I get sick of the churn, the constant learning, so try to skip a generation now and then, as so many fade away anyway.)

As I started reading up on VS2012 I was happy to see LightSwitch is now included. I quite liked the look of it for quick and simple U.I. development. Then I read that what it makes under the hood is Silverlight. Sigh. (Though apparently an HTML5 converter or something for it is coming.)

[pzkpfw]

Well, the upgrade went pretty smoothly.

The worst bit was when it did its first self-restart. Power light on, but black screens. No idea if it was actually doing something (so I'd "brick" it if I interrupted it), or just stuck. Eventually forced power-off, and on re-start it continued with the process fine.

Windows 8 itself? So far finding the user interface VERY off putting. On a desktop PC, with mouse and no touch (which I don't want on my desktop) some of the actions required to do things are clumsy; and totally invisible. If you don't know what to do, you don't know. Queue much googling. Luckily they have kept keyboard shortcuts for things; but the mouse seems second class, because it's largely reduced to emulating touch, as opposed to mouse having it's own optimised actions.

I don't like the screen changing all the time due to context. I like options and menus and stuff to just stay put. I hate the way things pop on and off the screen (a bit like context sensitive menus). e.g. In I.E. the screen is nice and clear, mostly just showing the page you are viewing. That's fine. But I hate the way the address bar and such then pop (fade, whatever) onto the screen when you right click. I'd rather they just stayed there.

And I don't read icon. That little picture of a wrench may mean "tools", but my brain works better if there's just the word "tools" on screen. It's like my brain has to interpret the icon into a word, then I can "understand" the word. That's adding a step.

These are first impressions. I'll probably get used to it, and learn how to do stuff "properly" the Win 8 way. Sigh.

(Again: I'm only doing this now for work reasons.)

[pzkpfw]

So I'm trying to figure out how to get two I.E. windows open in Metro (twin 24" FHD screens for flips sake, I want to use them...) and it seems Metro is one-screen-only. (As far as I can tell, and by googling).

But I can go to the Desktop, and open multiple I.E. windows and do stuff there, fine.

And it hits me that Metro really is the cut-down simple interface, while in it options really are limited; and that it can and probably should be ignored for most work.

Which makes it clear: Windows 8 is the new Microsoft Bob.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob )

[Gremlin]

So in summary: :nya:

I threw the review version on a spare laptop for my boss and I to have a play around. Within seconds all we wanted was the Win7 interface back (which I actually do like, and now use the Start menu more than ever... so Microsoft removed it :pinch: )

Therefore, that's a fail in my books.

[jonbuoy]

I dont know why MS do this, Windows 7 is excellent all they had to do was tweak it for a touch interface.

[Buyasta]

So in summary: :nya:

I threw the review version on a spare laptop for my boss and I to have a play around. Within seconds all we wanted was the Win7 interface back (which I actually do like, and now use the Start menu more than ever... so Microsoft removed it :pinch: )

Therefore, that's a fail in my books.

What really gets me is that in early developer previews, it was possible to re-enable the start menu with a few registry hacks. Microsoft saw that people were doing this, and rather than reconsider their choice to force people to use the stupid new interface, just made absolutely sure it was no longer possible to re-enable the old one. :facepalm::weird:

I am kinda curious to see how long it takes for Microsoft to finally admit that Metro doesn't work on PC's, that the vast majority of people trying it hate it and end up having to downgrade, and finally make it optional... My money is on at least 6+ months of a stubborn "We know best, you'll use our product how *we* want you to!" before they finally cave and fix it, and I suspect that like Vista, the reputation of Windows 8 will be permanently ruined, even after they fix it.

[James Deuce]

I TOLD you. It's pointless, and will just cause grief. You shoulda created a VM and changed your approach to using VMs. Less hassle than running 8.

[pzkpfw]

I TOLD you. It's pointless, and will just cause grief. You shoulda created a VM and changed your approach to using VMs. Less hassle than running 8.

Not so sure. My approach for now will be to stick in Desktop "mode" (they say it's an app, not a mode, but anyway...) and do most of my work there. It even happens automatically. I have no interest in getting weather reports and financial news and facebook updates on "tiles" on my start screen (even back in XP, I never ever had one of those desktop widget things active), so have already un-pinned all that crap. What I have left, are tiles that are essentially shortcuts to my traditional apps; things like mspaint, Outlook 2010, Word, calculator etc. Clicking one of them, starts the app - in desktop mode. Metro goes away. So in a way, I think I can treat the Metro U.I. itself as an app - that I don't use much. As long as MS don't eventually kill the "desktop apps" (e.g. I'm using the "metro IE" right now, but I expect I'll often go to desktop and use IE there) I'll be fine.


What really gets me is that in early developer previews, it was possible to re-enable the start menu with a few registry hacks. Microsoft saw that people were doing this, and rather than reconsider their choice to force people to use the stupid new interface, just made absolutely sure it was no longer possible to re-enable the old one. :facepalm::weird:

I read an interview way back with the lady in charge of Office 2010. It was a deliberate decision to NOT have a "traditional menu" mode for Office, as they knew everyone would just use that instead of the new ribbon thing. It's deliberate policy of MS to force people into new interfaces. Bastards.


I am kinda curious to see how long it takes for Microsoft to finally admit that Metro doesn't work on PC's, that the vast majority of people trying it hate it and end up having to downgrade, and finally make it optional... My money is on at least 6+ months of a stubborn "We know best, you'll use our product how *we* want you to!" before they finally cave and fix it, and I suspect that like Vista, the reputation of Windows 8 will be permanently ruined, even after they fix it.

Take this: the simplest way I can find, with a mouse, to close an application is a gesture that simulates swiping the app down from the top of the window, to the bottom. (Simulates dragging a finger down a touch screen, I suppose). But I like my monitors vertically stacked, so the top of the Metro window goes to the bottom of the desktop window - so it's hard to target the top of the Metro window for this gesture. So I'm forced, if I'm in a mousing mode (like clicking away at news web sites) to go to my keyboard to Alt-F4 the window, or use a more arcane mouse movement. Sucks.


I dont know why MS do this, Windows 7 is excellent all they had to do was tweak it for a touch interface.

Knee-jerk reaction to tablets.

I thought they learned from WinCE (where they tried to make a Windows desktop look-alike work on small screen devices like PDA's and phones) that one interface for all devices wasn't a good idea. That's why the newer windows phone stuff got the tiles and things and dumped the desktop. That was good.

Then they go and repeat history, by thinking the new phone stuff is good and putting it back over on the desktop. Idiots.

[pzkpfw]

Damn! That might be a deal-breaker... Civ II runs like my CPU is an 8088, not an i7!

[Gremlin]

I dont know why MS do this, Windows 7 is excellent all they had to do was tweak it for a touch interface.
Outside of the tech, Microsoft has committed itself to launching a new OS every 3 years due to the Software Assurance program. You sign up, pay a fee per year and always get the new stuff (no upfront costs). When you pay year 3, you've paid slightly more than buying the software upfront, therefore, if you go into year 4 (lets assume you replace on a 3 year cycle) software assurance is costing you more than just buying it. Windows XP must have killed them a bit, as people held onto their computers, so Microsoft wasn't getting as many sales.

To keep people seeing a value in Assurance you have to keep launching new versions...

However (experience at least amongst our clients) with the GFC, there is far less motivation to just replace things every 3 years regardless, even amongst the clients not quite so hamstrung by budget. For those more constrained, most are still on XP with no replacement plan other than when it starts causing issues, fine, we'll replace (or they need an extra PC). For our large clients, they're on support contracts, so we don't charge by the hour. Some IT does, so you could leverage that by insisting your client upgrades, ergo getting work.

From my view, MS is well out of touch with the public. The OS exists to give people functionality and get things done (Office productivity, specific programs related to business etc). It is not a play thing that people want to love and play with. Nor do they want to learn to do the same things over, in a different way, just because MS told them to. Changing the layout (windows, office etc) actually loses productivity.

Anyway, I just got a nice new laptop as mine was due for retirement (4+ years old). Deliberately bought the Win7 version as it was a bit cheaper and we have no plans to use Win8 at all. I honestly expect 8 to be the next Vista.

[bogan]

And the trend continues, every second version of windows is shit or otherwise not worth having.

Thanks for being the test subject though!

[jonbuoy]

Outside of the tech, Microsoft has committed itself to launching a new OS every 3 years due to the Software Assurance program. You sign up, pay a fee per year and always get the new stuff (no upfront costs). When you pay year 3, you've paid slightly more than buying the software upfront, therefore, if you go into year 4 (lets assume you replace on a 3 year cycle) software assurance is costing you more than just buying it. Windows XP must have killed them a bit, as people held onto their computers, so Microsoft wasn't getting as many sales.

To keep people seeing a value in Assurance you have to keep launching new versions...

However (experience at least amongst our clients) with the GFC, there is far less motivation to just replace things every 3 years regardless, even amongst the clients not quite so hamstrung by budget. For those more constrained, most are still on XP with no replacement plan other than when it starts causing issues, fine, we'll replace (or they need an extra PC). For our large clients, they're on support contracts, so we don't charge by the hour. Some IT does, so you could leverage that by insisting your client upgrades, ergo getting work.

From my view, MS is well out of touch with the public. The OS exists to give people functionality and get things done (Office productivity, specific programs related to business etc). It is not a play thing that people want to love and play with. Nor do they want to learn to do the same things over, in a different way, just because MS told them to. Changing the layout (windows, office etc) actually loses productivity.



Anyway, I just got a nice new laptop as mine was due for retirement (4+ years old). Deliberately bought the Win7 version as it was a bit cheaper and we have no plans to use Win8 at all. I honestly expect 8 to be the next Vista.

Madness, it can take a couple of years for manufacturers of commercial hardware to release firmware flashing/configuring/diagnostics tools for the latest O/S versions they will be forever playing catchup. Who wants to risk bricking thousands of dollars of control hardware by flashing in a virtual environment or the hassel of dual booting. There is bags of room in Win7 for improvements/upgrades/desktop bling that they could have released as options packages that a lot of people would have paid for.

[Gremlin]

There is bags of room in Win7 for improvements/upgrades/desktop bling that they could have released as options packages that a lot of people would have paid for.
But there has to be a new one every 3 years... well, for those in the program ;)

For the rest of us, a happy client is a productive client... we use Windows as the servers are exchange, Active Directory, remote access is Windows based in most cases etc and so on. We tried a Linux flavour for an end user and it just doesn't work. Mac... haha, never mind. However... I'm still waiting for a valid alternative, can't see how (anything taking such a hold software is made for it), but thinking we're upgrading every 3 years... well, Microsoft is failing to predict their own market... business 101 :weird:

Even a big ERP package we're in the midst of a multi-year deployment "supported" Red Hat, so we went for it. A few months down the track it's clear the software techs can't use Red Hat, and vital functionality isn't available... so back to W2K8 R2... Come to think of it... Server 2003 was ok. Lacked mobile device support but the rest was sufficient for client needs. I haven't even played with Server 2012 yet :pinch:

[pzkpfw]

Holy crap, they've even made Minesweeper suck.

[pzkpfw]

My Canon LBP 5000 Colour laser, which worked fine in Windows 7, is now killing Windows 8.

Can't currently use Office 2010 apps (Word nor Excel) as they hang when trying to enumerate printers.

Sigh.

[James Deuce]

*Gnnnhhhhhhh*

[Scuba_Steve]

Holy crap, they've even made Minesweeper suck.

dude :scratch: you sure you were playing minesweeper before??? That games always sucked

[Akzle]

you poor bastard.


anyway. as an aside, the old man (and he is old, and so: grumbly about things that change) needs his computer re-jigoed. it's running XP, so i'd probably install that again. (clean format), but his wifey wants office '10. the specs for office 10 say it needs silverlight.
wtf is silverlight, and how much resource is it going to waste running in XP (sp3?)
can office 10 be hacked to run without it
better, can office 2000-2007 be hacked to read docx?

(this is, of course, assuming i can't convert them to linux and open office)

[Scuba_Steve]

you poor bastard.


anyway. as an aside, the old man (and he is old, and so: grumbly about things that change) needs his computer re-jigoed. it's running XP, so i'd probably install that again. (clean format), but his wifey wants office '10. the specs for office 10 say it needs silverlight.
wtf is silverlight, and how much resource is it going to waste running in XP (sp3?)
can office 10 be hacked to run without it
better, can office 2000-2007 be hacked to read docx?

(this is, of course, assuming i can't convert them to linux and open office)

Silverlight is MS's version of a Flash clone shouldn't be much in relation to resources, as for the rest? Don't know. Don't like office, don't use office, don't want office.

[jim.cox]

wtf is silverlight

To quote micro$oft: "Silverlight is a powerful development tool for creating engaging, interactive user experiences for Web and mobile applications. Silverlight is a free plug-in... "
Free download, doesnt use much resource




can office 10 be hacked to run without it

Unfortunately not :)



better, can office 2000-2007 be hacked to read docx?

There is a compatibility pac for the old versions of orifice that allow it to read write docx - again a free download



(this is, of course, assuming i can't convert them to linux and open office)

Open office works not too badly on XP if they cant cope with Linux

[G4L4XY]

For pete sake, check to make sure your printers etc support windows 8, don't upgrade to find out it's not going to work and have a big cry about it, check first or forever hold your piece :)

[oneofsix]

For pete sake, check to make sure your printers etc support windows 8, don't upgrade to find out it's not going to work and have a big cry about it, check first or forever hold your piece :)

WTF shouldn't that be the other way round, it is up to the OS to support the printer and printer just supports the ink and paper. Sounds like typical Microsoft upgrade issue, they decided no-one uses that model printer any more so drivers/ support no longer required. :corn:

[pzkpfw]

Update 1: Man, it was so jiggered, that simply opening the "Devices and Printers" window from Control Panel (and boy I "love" how that is now started), was causing Control Panel (Control Panel!!!) to hang. The way to fix that was to kill Windows Explorer through task manager (that made Desktop AND Metro vanish). In 7, that comes back in a moment. In 8, I seem to have to Ctrl+Alt+Del to log-off/log-on to bring it back. Anyway, I google a bit, and it seems killing the print spooler service can fix some of these hangs, so I get a bit further. (Would your Nana, whom Metro seems designed for, do that?) I uninstall the driver (sort of; accessing it seems to kill Windows) so I can reinstall. I'd googled up a forum comment about how running installers in compatibility mode can help. But, when running the installer, it never sees the USB connected printer. I try again and again, turn off, unplug, re-plug. Never works. I cancel install and resign myself to connecting the printer to my old XP "server" (which is a pain to keep on as its fan is so loud), to be accessed as a network printer. Then I notice that the printer has re-appeared in my devices list. Everything has stopped hanging. It actually works. I have no idea at what stage it got re-attached. I did my best to uninstall (short of regedit hacking and file deletion) and never completed the re-install. Perhaps while I was plugging it in and out, while installing the printer driver, in the background Windows saw it and (re)installed something itself. Without telling me.

Here's where everything got working again, but I'm still left sour about the experience.

Comment 1: The printer worked fine in 7, with a proper 64 bit driver. I don't think it was unreasonable to expect it to keep working in 8 (and hey! it seems to, eventually...). I did research, and it seemed a common comment that 7 drivers would work in 8. For that matter, if it would be more common that things don't work in 8 - good luck to Microsoft getting Win 8 into the Enterprise. Who wants to dump all their Lasers just to update their OS?

Comment 2: Yeah, I like Minesweeper for a brief moments distraction. A quick start-play-stop-get on with work thing. The new one wants to do stuff like connect to XBOX live to put my scores on the internet, or some shit like that that I am not interested in. So I'm delayed playing by telling the darn thing to piss off when it asks me to log on (because I don't have Windows set to automatically log me on everywhere. Screw that.) When a game is completed, fireworks go off, like I'm some 5 year old who needs a cheap thrill. Fuck off.

Comment 3: Office 2010 needs Silverlight? That's new to me. What for? (Also: Silverlight is dead. Microsoft is stopping development of it; with HTML5+JavaScript being preferred for the application space Silverlight was for.)

[Akzle]

There is a compatibility pac for the old versions of orifice that allow it to read write docx - again a free download

Open office works not too badly on XP if they cant cope with Linux

you're a good bugger innt ya. (must spread rep...)

chur.

((i know OO runs in winblows. i find, even with a static PF, if i set teh process to lower priority it is glitchy as hell, but if it's normal priority the memory usage creeps up the longer it's open... spreadsheets particularly, and i dont think windows has the ability to set memory allocation and CPU priority seperately...))

[SMOKEU]

I might actually give Windows 8 a miss for a few more months for some of the bugs to be fixed before I make the change, and for drivers to become more mature (I can only get beta drivers for my motherboard for 8).

[jim.cox]

I might actually give Windows 8 a miss for a few more months for some of the bugs to be fixed before I make the change, and for drivers to become more mature (I can only get beta drivers for my motherboard for 8).

I intend to give it a miss entirely (and that is despite having a tablet pc) - I just hope our clients do the same

[pzkpfw]

I intend to give it a miss entirely (and that is despite having a tablet pc) - I just hope our clients do the same

I would not want to be IT support right now.

(Though I suspect most enterprises are not going to jump quickly to 8... so that provides some breathing room. My last employer only just got everyone onto 7.)

[Gremlin]

We haven't got a single client solely on 7... still a few XP boxes here and there for little things (like a spare desk with RDP links elsewhere). Funnily enough, they work fine don't they?

Have hit a snag trying to RDP forward printers from XP x86 to 7 x64... Microsoft would have you just connect up the printer to install... yeah, when it's in Wellington or Christchurch :brick:

[Mental Trousers]

Maybe it's time to upgrade from WinXP .... nah, fuck that. Everything works.

[James Deuce]

I might actually give Windows 8 a miss for a few more months for some of the bugs to be fixed before I make the change, and for drivers to become more mature (I can only get beta drivers for my motherboard for 8).

Bugs? I'd be waiting for them to separate the desktop and tablet O/S before I go anywhere near 8 on a PC or laptop.

[SMOKEU]

Maybe it's time to upgrade from WinXP .... nah, fuck that. Everything works.

People still use Windows XP?! Might as well live in a cave and hunt game with sticks while you're at it.


Bugs? I'd be waiting for them to separate the desktop and tablet O/S before I go anywhere near 8 on a PC or laptop.

Due to the number of sheep who blindly follow whatever Apple says, I think MS is forced into making everything more "Apple like" to stay afloat. People still don't understand that a tablet or a laptop is NOT a substitute for a desktop.

[Mental Trousers]

People still use Windows XP?! Might as well live in a cave and hunt game with sticks while you're at it.

Do you have to continually prove you're an idiot? Aim higher and surprise people a bit.

People who get sick of fixing everyone elses shit use WinXP. Win7 has nothing I need (not a gaming pc) and Win8 successfully pissed me off in the first 30 seconds. I run various flavours of linux at work and I can't be bothered at home.

WinXP works. The end.

[steve_t]

Maybe it's time to upgrade from WinXP .... nah, fuck that. Everything works.

Agree!
Win SBS 2003 with 7 workstations running XP Pro. It all just works and I have a general understanding of how it works. No way I'll change unless I have to.

[James Deuce]

Due to the number of sheep who blindly follow whatever Apple says, I think MS is forced into making everything more "Apple like" to stay afloat. People still don't understand that a tablet or a laptop is NOT a substitute for a desktop.

People don't. Enterprises and their support organisations do. Most of them are just about entertaining a wholesale upgrade from XP to Windows 7 about now, largely due to the lack of support for the O/S from Microsoft and licensing model changes, etc, etc....

If Microsoft don't provide an Enterprise edition that has none of this giant swishy icon nonsense, they will be dead in the water. I suspect this is why Mr Grumpy abruptly quit MS because he's very aware of that but Steve "I'm not a Gorilla, pass the turnip ice cream" Ballmer wants one OS.

[Gremlin]

Well, if we're going all nostalgic, I still maintain (odd word... nothing required for them) several instances of Windows 2000 and Server 2000. Moving them to a new OS would simply increase demand by the OS and add no functionality.

There's a security system running in DOS with serial connectors. Update log stopped in 1991 I think :crazy:

[SMOKEU]

People who get sick of fixing everyone elses shit use WinXP.

So are you saying that XP is a better OS than 7?

[Gremlin]

So are you saying that XP is a better OS than 7?
Define better...

I can't really think of anything I NEED in 7. It is nice tho, with the odd feature like auto-snapping windows and start menu you just type what you want.

Otherwise... XP did just fine and used a hell of a lot less memory and disk. I've got W2K3 installations, cut down, running on 200mb of memory and still performing very quickly.

[SMOKEU]

start menu you just type what you want.



That in itself is enough for me to keep well away from XP. I didn't realise how much I used that feature in 7 until I used an XP computer again. It also works on 8, so I guess that horrible start menu isn't as bad as I initially thought.

In saying that, XP was an excellent OS in its day, and it still is a good OS, but it's 11 years old and times have moved on to better and newer things. Don't forget that MS is going to stop supporting XP in the not too distant future, so it will become nothing more than a malware box after that.

[steve_t]

That in itself is enough for me to keep well away from XP. I didn't realise how much I used that feature in 7 until I used an XP computer again. It also works on 8, so I guess that horrible start menu isn't as bad as I initially thought.

In saying that, XP was an excellent OS in its day, and it still is a good OS, but it's 11 years old and times have moved on to better and newer things. Don't forget that MS is going to stop supporting XP in the not too distant future, so it will become nothing more than a malware box after that.

XP support til April 2014 :2thumbsup

[Mental Trousers]

So are you saying that XP is a better OS than 7?
Define better...

I can't really think of anything I NEED in 7. It is nice tho, with the odd feature like auto-snapping windows and start menu you just type what you want.

Otherwise... XP did just fine and used a hell of a lot less memory and disk. I've got W2K3 installations, cut down, running on 200mb of memory and still performing very quickly.

Pretty much as Gremlin said. WinXP simply works and uses fewer resources. I don't care how old it is because there isn't anything I use that I have to upgrade for, at least not on this machine. Typical usage is email, multiple browsers (both Firefox and Chrome with the occasional Opera), 3x text editors and multiple ssh windows. That's it. You don't need the latest i7 with 32GB of RAM running Win8 to do that lot.

[pzkpfw]

... That's it. You don't need the latest i7 with 32GB of RAM running Win8 to do that lot.

I remember using electric pencil on a TRS-80 Model I. When you typed, text would go off to the right. The paragraph didn't re-format until you pressed some key combination.

As computers got faster, paragraphs were able to reformat automatically, as you typed.

Then they got faster, and WYSIWYG was possible. Not just character-based screens, but text darn in graphics. Any font, any style. (Kids today won't even know what a character mapped display is.)

A little faster again, and now the Word processor can check your spelling and grammer as you type, and give you squiggles without interrupting your typing.

I suppose one day, the word processor will watch what you type, and automatically look up cross-references from Wikipedia for you to insert.

But eventually, you hit a wall. Why does the PC need to be faster? So you can keep typing while it's also updating the Facebook statuses of all your best buddies?

[steve_t]

A little faster again, and now the Word processor can check your spelling and grammer as you type, and give you squiggles without interrupting your typing.



LOL. The ironing is delicious :dodge:

[Gremlin]

Don't forget that MS is going to stop supporting XP in the not too distant future, so it will become nothing more than a malware box after that.
Next you'll tell me I need anti-virus. I only installed some when a gf managed to wander onto a malware site. PC had been fine without it for 6 odd months. I don't care if they're "supporting" it, as I only ring Microsoft to fix licensing issues. Last time I rang them was an activation problem a few weeks ago. The end game was I had to order manufacturer disks for a 6+ year old machine... Haha, I cracked activation instead and now the user can login and use the legit paid for Windows. Microsoft is their own worst enemy.


That's it. You don't need the latest i7 with 32GB of RAM running Win8 to do that lot.
Oh, but if the bloated versions of OS's keep going, you'll need it. I haven't switched to my new laptop yet. Current one is WinXP generation but 7 installed. Win7 idles consuming about 1GB of memory...

[Mental Trousers]

I remember using electric pencil on a TRS-80 Model I. When you typed, text would go off to the right. The paragraph didn't re-format until you pressed some key combination.

As computers got faster, paragraphs were able to reformat automatically, as you typed.

Then they got faster, and WYSIWYG was possible. Not just character-based screens, but text darn in graphics. Any font, any style. (Kids today won't even know what a character mapped display is.)

A little faster again, and now the Word processor can check your spelling and grammer as you type, and give you squiggles without interrupting your typing.

I suppose one day, the word processor will watch what you type, and automatically look up cross-references from Wikipedia for you to insert.

But eventually, you hit a wall. Why does the PC need to be faster? So you can keep typing while it's also updating the Facebook statuses of all your best buddies?

There was a time when I thought ascii pr0n was the business. Now you get an inbox full of messages from chicks like Olga and Veronica that want to show you what they had for breakfast in streaming 1080p.

Software drives hardware demand. The more bells and whistles the bigger the system need to run it. Go without the unnecessary bells and whistles and it's surprising what sort of spec hardware you can get away with.

Hell, my DHCP/DNS/web server/torrent box here at home is an ancient AMD Duron. Why replace it when it does everything it's required to do.

But the media centre machine is an i5 running leading edge ubuntu with XBMC and a 5TB zfs on linux array.

Run what is needed, not what is fashionable.

[pzkpfw]

... But the media centre ...

Speaking of which, Windows 8 Pro doesn't come with Media player, for DVD watching. (So when I "upgraded" I lost a function).

You have to pay for it (though for a "limited time" you can register for the upgrade for free).

(I suppose that means plenty of people will just get alternatives; dunno why MS did this.)

[Scuba_Steve]

1 thing MS finally did right with Win8 is realistic pricing... Now if they could expand that to their other software (we're looking at you Office) people could be alot happier

[Mental Trousers]

It's another way to claw money out of people. The majority will just pay it while an acceptably small proportion will go and find something better.

The main problem is each time Microsoft do something like that they're pushing another bunch of customers away. After a while those small proportions add up to a hefty number of people flicking them the finger.

[SMOKEU]

Next you'll tell me I need anti-virus. I only installed some when a gf managed to wander onto a malware site. PC had been fine without it for 6 odd months.

That's a big risk. Even with AV software I still manage to get about 1 malware infection per month. I do all my dodgy web browsing in a Linux VM so I don't infect the host OS, too. Now I've resorted to doing all my web browsing inside Sandboxie (is running a web browser inside Sandboxie a fool proof way to keep safe?).

[pzkpfw]

Spoke too soon. Excel died again, on some kind of looking for printers function.

Windows shows the printer as installed, Excel can't see it. It flipping worked yesterday - I printed a page out of an Excel workbook - now it's gone!

[Akzle]

Microsoft is their own worst enemy.

Oh, but if the bloated versions of OS's keep going, you'll need it. I haven't switched to my new laptop yet. Current one is WinXP generation but 7 installed. Win7 idles consuming about 1GB of memory...
bwahahah. innit.
i only just upgraded my T43 to 1GB of ram...


Speaking of which, Windows 8 Pro doesn't come with Media player, for DVD watching. (So when I "upgraded" I lost a function).

VLC ftw.

[pzkpfw]

VLC ftw.

Yeah, that's what I had in mind when I made the part of my comment you didn't quote. Put VLC on my Daughters laptop when she started having region issues with her DVD's. (Some region 1, some 4, laptop DVD player locked). All good now; all DVD's now play for her.

[Scuba_Steve]

VLC ftw.[/QUOTE]

I actually prefer Media Player Classic in the K-lite codec pack for straight video playback (lighter & faster)

[steve_t]

[COLOR="#139922"]
VLC ftw.

I actually prefer Media Player Classic in the K-lite codec pack for straight video playback (lighter & faster)

Does MPC play MKVs of Blu-rays? VLC struggles with the file size, I think

[Scuba_Steve]

Does MPC play MKVs of Blu-rays? VLC struggles with the file size, I think

never tried, but it does everything else I've ever tried with it fine so don't see why not. Give it a go, can always get rid of it again if you don't like it K-lite (http://codecguide.com/download_kl.htm)

I originally got it as it's a complete codec pack for windows, haven't found any better yet (tho haven't had a need to look either)

[Usarka]

So are you saying that XP is a better OS than 7?

An operating system is there for one real purpose, and one real purpose only. To run applications.

[SMOKEU]

An operating system is there for one real purpose, and one real purpose only. To run applications.

I'd have to say it's mainly there to run services.

[imdying]

Services are just headless applications.

[scracha]

Services are just headless applications.
Hear hear.


Anyway...OP. Have upgraded 3 machines to Win 8.
One was an old HP 530 notebook that local kindy were gonna throw out. Customer on open charity licence so cost next to sod all. It ran Vista before....it's now running about ten times as fast (obviously SSD and properly implemented UAC from Win7 is main factor). Intel Core 2 Duo with 2GB. Put it up to 3GB (had 2 x 1GB sigh) and chucked in Intel 120GB SSD. Runs VERY nicely. Put Office 2013 on it too. Teacher loving the app store thingie. Live tiles photo facebook thingie is attractive too. External multi screen very well integrated too.

Second one was Win 7 toshiba, 640GB, 4GB i5 (cheapo dual core i5 tho). Install piece of piss. Boots a fraction quicker but can't see the bloody point TBH.

3rd one was brand new HP Elite 8300 All-In-One i7 1TB drive 8GB RAM. Customer wanted to "try" it so I obliged (had no choice...otherwise they wouldn't buy it). Did the $20 upgrade thing. Took about 10 minutes for that process. Downloaded it. Created USB flash drive and also DVD to be on safe side. Cloned hard drive to be REALLY safe lol. Only driver that didn't auto install...you've guessed it...the TOUCH SCREEN. D/L'd driver from manufacturer (NextWindow) as HP site doesn't list it. Driver wouldn't install. Had to disable graphics driver, install touchscreen driver then restart the machine and re-enable the graphics driver. Then had to run some win 7 x64 touchscreen utility that was in the swsetup folder from previous out of box win 7 install. Vioala....it then worked.

BIG learning curve as I'd only worked Win 8 with a mouse before. Sidenote...2 and a half effing grand and the HP mouse is DOA. Sidenote 2. 2 and a half effing grand and HP supply a shitty RF keyboard and mouse as opposed to bluetooth. Tempted to see if they're stupid enough to apply the NBD onsite for a dead mouse. Bigger learning curve trying to make it talk to his iMac running Lion or mountain lion or summit (can't remember). Win 8 "libraries" on other machines rely on indexing Offline Files and the bummer is that APPLE HAVE COMPLETELY @#CK!NG BROKEN their SMB sharing implementation in Lion (works ok in previous versions). Oplocks or something are all to cock. Simple SMB file sharing and mapping drives is ok but then they don't really show up in the tiles and galleries and media libraries and stuff. Resorted to scheduling a file sync between the user docs/photos/music/videos on the two machines.....at least it'll do backup. ick.

My initial conclusion. Win 8 makes sense if you have a touchscreen and/or multiple screens. Win 8 also makes sense if you have Win Vista or XP and the processor is at least a dual core and don't want to pay for Win 7 (or note down a Win 7 license key from the bottom of your mate's laptop). Otherwise, stick with Win 7 or wait until Win 9. There's a HUGE learning curve on Win 8 and existing Win users will no doubt get their knickers in a twist. It's akin to running Windows 3.0 on your 80286 when you're quite used to DR DOS, Taskmax and TSR's (google that for a history lesson SMOKEU).

Note that the OEM's don't put the Win 8 license keys on the PC's anymore. Non IMAP or exchange email doesn't really integrate that well with the default mail app with its tiles and purty interface. I think IE10 is a slow buggy POS at the moment that likes randomly freezing before working away again. It needs a service pack lol. Installed Chrome browser on all 3 immediately.

I found I have no muscles in my arms and that I was aching after a couple of hours working a 23" touchscreen. Guess you'd get used to it.

Win 8 feels a wee bit disjointed with switching back and forward to the (win 7) Desktop screen.. As if MS are trying to head in one direction but being held back by NT/XP/Vista/7 compatibility. The tiled start screen is like the start menu. Downside is that when you install legacy apps...they create f00k1oads of "shortcuts" on the new start screen that you have to hide. You also HAVE to learn the shortcuts (as the GUI breaks a lot of basic HCI rules) but once you get your head round them I'd say it's faster. Time will tell I guess. Really really wish they'd kept the big red X to close a window. Overall I think MS are going in a very good direction and for once, showing some real innovation (they have to...otherwise they're screwed). For plebs like me trying to admin computers, majority of which are not on a domain, I reckon the way it stores apps, some data and settings in the cloud is good. The Win 8 recovery thingie really does work well when customer bolloxes things up. Doesn't seem to lose ANY settings whatsoever. Maybe it syncs with the "cloudy" login thingie? No doubt some eastern european bastards will find a way of infecting it. Once more apps come out designed with touch and tiles in mind I think it'll really come into its own.

Very keen to see it working with the Win 8 phones. More keen to see Win 9 as no doubt they'll work on integrating it with corporate servers and fix some of the GUI so that it makes more sense without a touchscreen.

Anyone tried a Win RT device yet?

[steve_t]

Anyone tried a Win RT device yet?

I had a quick play with the MS Surface in Astraya recently. Seemed really nice. Win 8 Pro released in February according to the sales chick. She said she was gonna wait for that to be released as the RT version is quite limited. I was quite surprised at how nice it was to type on the surface keypad thingamee.

Any of you guys managing any Server 2012 machines?

[pzkpfw]

... My initial conclusion. Win 8 makes sense if you have a touchscreen and/or multiple screens. ...

My desktop has twin 24" FHD monitors, and I think Win 8 is arse on dual monitors. It's fine in "(don't call it) desktop mode", but the "Modern UI" stuff just isn't designed for more than single screen tablet or laptop. It's daft.

(They tout "Metro" as being great for multitasking, because you can have a little 2nd window down the side of your screen. That may be a leap forward for Tablets (or not) but it's a leap backwards on my PC.)

"Microsoft Windows" became "Microsoft Window".


... You also HAVE to learn the shortcuts ...

Shouldn't have to. It's got a freakin' GUI!


... (as the GUI breaks a lot of basic HCI rules) ...

Like getting rid of visual affordances. Bastards.


... but once you get your head round them I'd say it's faster.

I don't care so much about "faster". The things the shortcuts do are not done often enough by me. I'd rather things were just easier to find, when I want them. Sometimes I'm mostly doing mouse stuff, not keyboard, so want easy mouse things to do. Like ...


... Really really wish they'd kept the big red X to close a window.

Yes!

Move mouse, on average from middle of screen, to top right of screen (if window maximised, less if not), click on "X".
versus
Move mouse, on average from middle of screen, to top of screen, to just the right position (my 2nd monitor is above 1st, so mouse doesn't just stop at top of 1st screen), then drag all the way down.

I get they want to save pixels on a Tablet. But I'm using twin FHD monitors. I have pixels to spare.

Sure, I can press Alt+F4, but if I'm "on the mouse" that's not better. I have to switch modes from mouse to keyboard. The PC ought to support touch, mouse and keyboard; all equally usable as and when required. The mouse should not be reduced to simulating touch - that just doesn't work nicely.


Lots and lots on Win 8 is very nice, and I'm sure the Metro stuff is nice on a Tablet. I'm actually mulling over buying a Dell XPS 12 so I can learn to play Tablet style (gotta learn).


The other thing that's really pissing me off right now, is the barrier they've put up for Metro apps being side loaded. It's a big road block for hobbyists and small businesses. I think they've cut off a huge part of the base of users who'd make 8 a success. They provide less reason to go Win 8 over Android or iOS. That, and the very restrictive sandbox. Metro apps don't get a serial Bluetooth protocol, for example.


P.S. Disabled flash in IE10 as ads on TradeMe forum were crashing my video drivers.

[Akzle]

Shouldn't have to. It's got a freakin' GUI!

haiku.
. .

[imdying]

Shouldn't have to. It's got a freakin' GUI!I know what you're saying, but keyboard short cuts are a staple of power users. No matter how flash the GUI is, the keyboard shortcut is always faster.

[pzkpfw]

I know what you're saying, but keyboard short cuts are a staple of power users. No matter how flash the GUI is, the keyboard shortcut is always faster.

Yeah, I don't buy the "power user" thing. If people want to use the keyboard shortcuts, that's fine., But to call themselves power users and dismiss mouse use as somehow "less cool" is just bollocks.

When I'm using the keyboard, fine, I'll use a keyboard shortcut. But when I'm mostly mousing, there ought to be an easy mouse thing for me to do.

Maybe this means I'm not a "power user" (whatever that really means) but if I don't do something very often, I don't remember it. That's why the visual affordances are so useful. Also, if I don't use it often, being a bit faster isn't the issue, it's convenience.

And overall, the target market for Windows is the non-power user; they are the vast majority of users of Windows. So again, stupid mouse control issues being explained away as "just use keyboard shortcuts" doesn't make sense.

[bogan]

...."just use keyboard shortcuts" doesn't make sense.

Unless there is a keyboard shortcut to 'downgrade' Win 8 back to Win 7, that would make a lot of sense :innocent:

Apparently Win 8 has deliberately removed compatibility with a lot of server systems to force the user to upgrade them as well. Considering that the IT guy I was talking to was having IPX compatibilty issues while upgrading to Win 7, I think they've cocked up their market evaluation there :facepalm:

[Scuba_Steve]

I think they've cocked up their market evaluation there :facepalm:

MS have never evaluated the "market" you're talking bout there. MS don't care about consumers, they care about money & market evaluation is showing they're losing market as massive rates. The new "leaders" Apple & Google, what do both these corporations have in common??? an 'eco system'. This is what MS is now trying to force everyone on.
Win8 should look/feel like Xbox, which should look/feel like winph8, which should look/feel like winRT, which should look/feel like Win8

Problem is MS don't know what they're doing, how to do it, or what people want, & they're late to the party. But then none of this has held them back in the past, so they may well pull it off once their propaganda machine goes full force

[jim.cox]

once their propaganda machine goes full force

I see from today's media that M$ claim to have sold 40million win8 licences to date

Wonder how many are actually in use 10% ? 1% ? 0.1% ?

[pzkpfw]

I see from today's media that M$ claim to have sold 40million win8 licences to date

Wonder how many are actually in use 10% ? 1% ? 0.1% ?

We need some up-to-date user agent string browser stats.

[Gremlin]

I see from today's media that M$ claim to have sold 40million win8 licences to date
I think many of those would be OEM. I know a friend bought a laptop because it was cheap, now seen what W8 is, hates it and wants to know how he gets W7 on it...

[scracha]

I think many of those would be OEM. I know a friend bought a laptop because it was cheap, now seen what W8 is, hates it and wants to know how he gets W7 on it...

Officially he needs Win 7 PRO

"What do I need to downgrade?
To take advantage of your Windows 8 Pro downgrade rights, you need installation media* (such as DVD or USB key) for Windows 7 Professional or Windows Vista Business. You also need a valid product key for the older OS. It's fine to use a product key currently in use on another machine; you just need the old code to get past the product key request during installation."

*
http://msft.digitalrivercontent.net/win/X17-59186.iso (win 7 pro 64bit)
http://msft.digitalrivercontent.net/win/X17-59183.iso (win 7 pro 32 bit)

http://msft.digitalrivercontent.net/win/X17-58997.iso (win 7 HP x64)
http://msft.digitalrivercontent.net/win/X17-58996.iso (win 7 hp x32)


Unofficially. Just download it and try it first as drivers may be a bitch. It'll work for 30 days without the key, then it'll go into a nag on the startup (and not download certain MS updateS) but otherwise work fine.

[Akzle]

It'll work for 30 days without the key, then it'll go into a nag on the startup (and not download certain MS updateS) but otherwise work fine.

there's a fix ("crack") for that...

[imdying]

Yeah, I don't buy the "power user" thing. If people want to use the keyboard shortcuts, that's fine., But to call themselves power users and dismiss mouse use as somehow "less cool" is just bollocks.No no, it doesn't make the mouse less cool, they're like a knife and fork, both have their place and should be used in conjunction with each other. A simple example is the Win-D combination... you would be crazy to use the mouse to clear the desktop, but that doesn't make the mouse redundant, you just start the pointer off towards the next click whilst you're using the shortcut.


When I'm using the keyboard, fine, I'll use a keyboard shortcut. But when I'm mostly mousing, there ought to be an easy mouse thing for me to do.

Maybe this means I'm not a "power user" (whatever that really means) but if I don't do something very often, I don't remember it. That's why the visual affordances are so useful. Also, if I don't use it often, being a bit faster isn't the issue, it's convenience.A power user is generally just someone who uses a particular application as the core of their working day... for a MSSQL database administrator, that would be something like SQL Management Studio; if they're any chop they'll know all the keyboard shortcuts like the back of their hand.


And overall, the target market for Windows is the non-power user; they are the vast majority of users of Windows. lol, the hell it is :laugh:

[Akzle]

lol, the hell it is :laugh:

yeah, nah. it is.

or otherwise sysadmins/l33t-folk who know better but are forced into it by corporate policy. :nono:

(or the desire to run full screen flash without writing drivers for their card ><)

damn shame, really.

[Akzle]

I've got an XP VM on my current PC; only ever used it once, and that wasn't for work (it was to play an old game).

DOSbox.
.