Overtime and reimbursements.

[Devil]

Advice and info required.

I am your common garden outsourced IT engineer on a salary, currently working on a "mission critical" platform that requires a whole heap of patching to bring it up to a level so they can upgrade some software shizzle on it.
The only time an outage can be scheduled to apply these patches is during the evening, the proposal is an outage from 9pm to 5am x about 6 nights (not sure on how close together they're going to be yet).
Guess who the poor sod is that's being asked to do the work.

In my contract, it does mention (very generally) that some overtime may be required. I'm cool with that, but what sort of remuneration should be expected?, what does the law say? (the www.ers.govt.nz site is arse, doesnt really help). I'm getting the "we're trying to keep costs down at the moment" line. I even heard "well, it'd be like doing your normal 8.5hr day...but at night". Yeah right buddy!

Any help would be appreciated.

Mr Devil.

[Mooch]

Advice and info required.

I am your common garden outsourced IT engineer on a salary, currently working on a "mission critical" platform that requires a whole heap of patching to bring it up to a level so they can upgrade some software shizzle on it.
The only time an outage can be scheduled to apply these patches is during the evening, the proposal is an outage from 9pm to 5am x about 6 nights (not sure on how close together they're going to be yet).
Guess who the poor sod is that's being asked to do the work.

In my contract, it does mention (very generally) that some overtime may be required. I'm cool with that, but what sort of remuneration should be expected?, what does the law say? (the www.ers.govt.nz site is arse, doesnt really help). I'm getting the "we're trying to keep costs down at the moment" line. I even heard "well, it'd be like doing your normal 8.5hr day...but at night". Yeah right buddy!

Any help would be appreciated.

Mr Devil.

Without trying to sound careless I'd say toughen up, you've taken a career in IT and are getting paid a premium for it. It's the sort of career where at times you may need to put in some 70 - 90 weeks. If your contract stated it, and you've taken the job why are you questioning it now? The occasion late install comes with the job. If I'd been paid overtime for all the late night /early installs, earlier morning starts I'd be retired. You can tell me to naff off, but this is what I think. From a career point of view if you put the time in now you’ll end up better off in your future later on, You’ll be the one asking staff to do the hours.

[Devil]

Without trying to sound careless I'd say toughen up, you've taken a career in IT and are getting paid a premium for it. It's the sort of career where at times you may need to put in some 70 - 90 weeks. If your contract stated it, and you've taken the job why are you questioning it now? The occasion late install comes with the job. If I'd been paid overtime for all the late night /early installs, earlier morning starts I'd be retired. You can tell me to naff off, but this is what I think. From a career point of view if you put the time in now you’ll end up better off in your future later on, You’ll be the one asking staff to do the hours.
Because a contract has stated that there is the possibility of overtime, it does not absolve the employer from their obligations under law for providing reimbursement in regards to overtime work.

Sure I work late often, and the normal thing to do is come in late the next day if possible (the bosses prefered idea) and not claiming overtime. But shifting your whole day by 12 hours for a one off event (by one off im including a few days here) is a little different.

[Mooch]

Used to do 12 hour 4 days on 4 days off shifts where they either became am or pm shifts , did that for 18 months , led to a better job (thanks Jim2 !).
I ran a team in NZ which put in some serious hours for after hour upgrades and worked normal day (misson critical systems ). I didn't pay them overtime,but looked after them at review time (and the odd bit of time in leiu). What's you boss like in regards to reviews and payrates ?. (PM me if you like)

[texmo]

Work hard, work late and hope for a big bonus...

[Drunken Monkey]

Sorry bud, late nights and weekends come with the territory, penal rates only apply if your contract allows, which they typically don't on Salary workers (which is partly why I contract).
The only hard part is drawing the line between what is 'reasonable' overtime. 6 nights in a row is probably fair and reasonable as long as its only a couple of times a year. It's not like they're asking you to work a normal day then stay on all night (been there before!).
On the plus side, salary buggers like you still get paid when you've got your feet up on the desk reading through Computer World or Windows IT Pro. The down side to getting paid lots for after hours work is not getting paid at all if the 'job' isn't billable to someone else.
It works out much the same in the end. I get a little more money, more flexibility, but no holiday pay and small pay cheques if I'm being a slack bastard.

[TerminalAddict]

I have the same type of job, and the same problems
1 night hour = 1.5 day hours in my book

but I manage my own time so I have that luxury.
meaning: if working thru the night, I normally only put in 5 hours, and count it as 1 day at work.
I've had a couple of events which required me to work from 6pm on a week night to 6am on the following work day. To me that means I skip 2 days and work 1 night.

Admittedly I put in a fair amount of slashdot time, and do the odd "homer" from my desk at work :)

[Beemer]

You should try being a photographer! When I worked on a daily paper there were two photographers and we worked rotating shifts. For four weeks one of us would work 7am to 4pm Monday to Friday and the other would work 12pm to 8pm Tuesday to Friday, and all day Saturday OR Sunday - and sometimes you would be expected to work part of Saturday and part of Sunday - then we'd swap. As we were paid a salary, tough biccies, no overtime at all. Whoever was on the late shift was technically on duty until 7am the following morning and all over the weekend, so if there was a fire or a shooting or something at 3am, you were expected to cover it.

All this for the amazing salary of $28,000! I BET you get paid more than that! It was a real pain because when you were on late shift you couldn't plan anything for the weekends because often you wouldn't know until late Friday whether you were working Saturday or Sunday. We had one prick of a reporter who would ask that the rugby (ugh!) be covered on a Saturday afternoon, then he'd also put in a job for 3pm on a Sunday - usually about 30kms away from home.

When the second photographer left they didn't bother replacing him and I was expected to still work the rotating shifts - but I was also on 24 hour call if anything happened outside my rostered hours. Any wonder why I now work for myself?

I have no idea what your pay rate is, but in 1989 I was going out with a 21 year-old computer operator who was earning $38,000 - more than double my annual salary at the time.

[Keystone19]

I think the issue here is were you expecting to have to work overtime as part of your contract (you say your contract does mention overtime generally but what does that mean in terms of hours and expectations). If you take on a position with hours outside a normal 40hour week then you would expect that to be made clear to you at the outset and you go in to the job knowing that that is how it is e.g. shift workers, photographers working for newspapers etc. If you go into the job and you don't expect to work outside a normal 40hour week and it is not stipulated in your contract then I would expect some recompense if I was then asked to do that. If your boss is claiming that it is in your contract that some overtime is required and what he/she is asking you to do fits into this, you probably don't have much of a leg to stand on. Salaries suck sometimes but with it comes some flexibility, although you may not get paid more, perhaps you could negotiate some days off in lieu of the nights worked - think of the riding you could do during the days that you don't go into work to make up for the nights you had to work...

[TwoSeven]

They should be paying for it.

Normally the reasonable expectation from a salaried worker is that sometimes you need to work late to get the job done (usually an hour or two). However, also in your contract you should have a normal hours clause (usually 9-5 or something) and a set number of working hours for the week (eg. 37.5).

If they are asking you to work different hours or longer hours, then they are changing your contract which they cant do - even if its only for a week or a night. Thats why its called a contract. They are breaking the law if they ask you to work different hours.

You can negotiate a temporary modification to the contract. For example, you can say - if I work for the next two weeks at these hours, then you have to pay me x and/or give me y time off to be taken immediately after. This contract will have a short fixed start/end so that it doesnt replace your main contract when it expires. This needs to be a formal written contract which you both need to agree and sign. Usually it just refers to the terms and conditions in the orginal contract and then states the deviations and duration and remuneration.

If its a couple of nights, I normally ask for the following day off (although make time for checkpoint meetings) and some remuneration either money or a couple of days off after the event (you should take the time off - dont try and keep it). If they cant play ball, then I refuse the work.

There is a difference between reasonable expectation and slave labour. Many people fall for the slave labour because they are clueless on their contract negotiation (many people dont actually know what half the stuff in their contract actually means).

[enigma51]

You should try being a photographer! When I worked on a daily paper there were two photographers and we worked rotating shifts. For four weeks one of us would work 7am to 4pm Monday to Friday and the other would work 12pm to 8pm Tuesday to Friday, and all day Saturday OR Sunday - and sometimes you would be expected to work part of Saturday and part of Sunday - then we'd swap. As we were paid a salary, tough biccies, no overtime at all. Whoever was on the late shift was technically on duty until 7am the following morning and all over the weekend, so if there was a fire or a shooting or something at 3am, you were expected to cover it.

All this for the amazing salary of $28,000! I BET you get paid more than that! It was a real pain because when you were on late shift you couldn't plan anything for the weekends because often you wouldn't know until late Friday whether you were working Saturday or Sunday. We had one prick of a reporter who would ask that the rugby (ugh!) be covered on a Saturday afternoon, then he'd also put in a job for 3pm on a Sunday - usually about 30kms away from home.

When the second photographer left they didn't bother replacing him and I was expected to still work the rotating shifts - but I was also on 24 hour call if anything happened outside my rostered hours. Any wonder why I now work for myself?

I have no idea what your pay rate is, but in 1989 I was going out with a 21 year-old computer operator who was earning $38,000 - more than double my annual salary at the time.

I know what saying being "on call" al the time sucks and for little pay that sucks double. but to the guy that posted the original question.

do you like your job cause if you dont then get out. If you do ask yourself do they expect me to come in the next day after you worked all night if the answer is yes then you are working for an asshole company.

On the other side welcome to the IT world! :clap:

[justsomeguy]

Advice and info required.

I am your common garden outsourced IT engineer on a salary, currently working on a "mission critical" platform that requires a whole heap of patching to bring it up to a level so they can upgrade some software shizzle on it.
The only time an outage can be scheduled to apply these patches is during the evening, the proposal is an outage from 9pm to 5am x about 6 nights (not sure on how close together they're going to be yet).
Guess who the poor sod is that's being asked to do the work.

In my contract, it does mention (very generally) that some overtime may be required. I'm cool with that, but what sort of remuneration should be expected?, what does the law say? (the www.ers.govt.nz (http://www.ers.govt.nz/) site is arse, doesnt really help). I'm getting the "we're trying to keep costs down at the moment" line. I even heard "well, it'd be like doing your normal 8.5hr day...but at night". Yeah right buddy!

Any help would be appreciated.

Mr Devil.
Hi Devil,

You mention overtime. Does this mean they expect you to work in the day as well as night?? If that is not the case during your initial job interviews did they ask you if you were comfortable working outside normal office hours?? If they did and you answered "yes" then you may have to work the hours without any further compensation.

Most contracts should have some mention of how workers will be compensated for any extra effort. This may be a bonus or a stupid trophy or whatever. Peruse your contract again to see what is stated.

I hate it when the companies do this - they get their jobs done and we have our social lives/plans disrupted and have to put up with it. Being one of the people who works to pay bills I hate such things. If I was paid to race bikes or cars I think I wouldn't mind:whistle: .

I suggest you do sort this out soon, since "patching" will be part of your job you may have to deal with all sorts of ineffective patches or compatibility problems that could stretch the number of hours it takes to finish the tasks.

Good Luck.

[pyrocam]

I work from 8:30 to 5 as per contract but its not uncommon for me to be here from 8:30 to 7 or even 10 some nights. I have to come in at 7 two nights this week.

its just part of the job.

and if your still doing the 8.5 hours I dont think they are legally obliged to do jack.

BUT I do beleive that if you work past 7 and you work more than an hour either side of it you are entitled to a dinner allowance which is roughly worked out on the price of a Big Mac Combo.

edit: sorry and no I dont get overtime. I possible could put in for it but its not worth the hassle

[vifferman]

They should be paying for it.

Normally the reasonable expectation from a salaried worker is that sometimes you need to work late to get the job done (usually an hour or two). However, also in your contract you should have a normal hours clause (usually 9-5 or something) and a set number of working hours for the week (eg. 37.5)
There will mostly be a 'grandfather clause' though, that says what 'normal business hours' are, then summat like, "and such work from time to time outside of normal business hours as may be required".
Where I "work" (I use the term advisedly), we don't get ANY overtime until we have worked more than 9.5 hours, and then we are only paid if it has been arranged with management beforehand, AND the customer is paying for it (at about 10 times the hourly salary rate).

[Devil]

Cheers people. Yes I do have hours stipulated in my contract 37.5 excluding lunches, and that the hours can be anywhere in between 7:30 and 6pm.

Have also just had a meeting with the boss, and have decided to hold off on the overtime thing at the moment. He said he'd take care of it come review time.

So, i'll live with that for the moment. However, review time comes after I pass my next exam (doing MS certified monkey crap at the mo). So I guess i'll get to work then!

[enigma51]

However, review time comes after I pass my next exam (doing MS certified monkey crap at the mo). So I guess i'll get to work then!

BULLSHIT!!! unless its a very nice company and then my question is do they have an opening?.

[Devil]

BULLSHIT!!! unless its a very nice company and then my question is do they have an opening?.
Straight from the horses mouth. He said none of this review stuff every 12 months. Do your exam and we'll talk.

No, no openings at the moment. Last one has just been filled by another KB'er ;)

WHO SHALL BE ETERNALLY GRATEFUL, BITCH.
:devil2:

[DemonWolf]

Its the same nearly everywhere you go.. Management normally take it for granted that IT work extra hours for little or no return (salary based!) and more often than not.. not even a pat on the back for keeping things together! but watch out if things aren't working.. Your names muck and you are expected to fix it straight away!

[TwoSeven]

Cheers people. Yes I do have hours stipulated in my contract 37.5 excluding lunches, and that the hours can be anywhere in between 7:30 and 6pm.

Have also just had a meeting with the boss, and have decided to hold off on the overtime thing at the moment. He said he'd take care of it come review time.

So, i'll live with that for the moment. However, review time comes after I pass my next exam (doing MS certified monkey crap at the mo). So I guess i'll get to work then!

Nice one, generally having an honest chat about your concerns tends to work best. Usually means you dont piss off the boss :)

[pete376403]

Its the same nearly everywhere you go.. Management normally take it for granted that IT work extra hours for little or no return (salary based!) and more often than not.. not even a pat on the back for keeping things together! but watch out if things aren't working.. Your names muck and you are expected to fix it straight away!

Have to say it wasn't always like that. Back in my IBM days (pre '91) I was on salary (everyone was), plus time and a half for the first three hours, then double time thereafter. Plus if there wasn't a 10 hour break between finishing and restarting the following day, you stayed on double time. Many mission crit systems (I worked on S38 and AS400) could only be serviced late at night. I had several sites that had a service window 11pm Sunday to 5am Monday. Ah the good ol' days.

[enigma51]

Straight from the horses mouth. He said none of this review stuff every 12 months. Do your exam and we'll talk.

No, no openings at the moment. Last one has just been filled by another KB'er ;)

WHO SHALL BE ETERNALLY GRATEFUL, BITCH.
:devil2:

Maybe you lucky but just remeber they will pay you not what are worth but what they think they can get away with. Aaah dont listen to me Im just anoyed at the moment with stupid people at work. :whocares:

[Devil]

Its the same nearly everywhere you go.. Management normally take it for granted that IT work extra hours for little or no return (salary based!) and more often than not.. not even a pat on the back for keeping things together! but watch out if things aren't working.. Your names muck and you are expected to fix it straight away!
Yes, I have rarely heard the work "thanks" when we've work our ass off to fix something, yet if something breaks we're labelled useless.

[justsomeguy]

Maybe you lucky but just remeber they will pay you not what are worth but what they think they can get away with.

Now ain't that the sad truth :mad: bloody management bastards:mad:

[DemonWolf]

Now ain't that the sad truth :mad: bloody management bastards:mad:
Originally Posted by enigma51
Maybe you lucky but just remeber they will pay you not what are worth but what they think they can get away with.

I agree with that.

[What?]

From a long-time trade unionist...
I would bet there is no monetary compensation for any O/T you work, nor for working nights. Such is the world for salaried workers, and for many waged workers. You can thank everyone that voted for the last National gummint for that.
As far as working through the night goes, it would be unreasonable for your boss to expect you to work any hours at all on the day predecing or following the night work (i.e. if you work Tuesday night, you should not be working during the day on Tues OR Wed). This is both for quality of work and OSH reasons.